1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: Podcast Playground. 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 2: I'm Buzznight, the host of Taking a Walk Music History 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 2: on Foot. You could find us at Apple podcast or 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 2: Spotify or the podcast Playground or wherever you get your podcast. 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: You can also go to takin a Walk dot com 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 2: for all episodes and all transcripts. Today, our guest is 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: Stephanie Clifford, an award winning investigative journalist and best selling author. 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: Her first book, Everybody Rise, was a New York Times bestseller. 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 2: Her new novel is called The Farewell Tour, the story 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 2: of fictional country music singer Lillian Waters. Let's take a 11 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: walk with Stephanie Clifford. Next, Well, Stephanie Clifford, It's so 12 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 2: nice to be taking a walk with you in person. 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: I know what a post COVID treat right. 14 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: This is terrific. It's a beauty, full day. So set 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: the scene where we are though. 16 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 3: We're in Prospect Park, Brooklyn, which is I think the 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 3: crown jewel of Brooklyn, olmstud Design like Central Park. 18 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: We're passing. 19 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 3: If you hear the shots of children listening to some 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 3: sort of girls'. 21 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: School at play on our right, and this is near 22 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: my house. I get to come here. I try to 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: come here. 24 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 3: Every day for a little piece, and certainly to walk 25 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 3: my two big dogs, play with the kids all that. 26 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: So I love it. 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 3: And and we're in spring migration, so if we stand 28 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 3: you cool birds, we'll be stopping to talk about them. 29 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: It's perfect. Yeah, it's great. 30 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 2: Well, I have to thank you first of all, because 31 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: one of the great joys is when someone listens to 32 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: an episode of Take in a Walk and then reaches 33 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 2: out like you did, to offer up an opportunity to 34 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: talk about your book, the Farewell Tour. So thank you. 35 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful. 36 00:01:58,200 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: I'm grateful too. 37 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 3: I think the idea of an actual walk while you 38 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 3: talk to people, I think it just brings in a 39 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 3: different kind of more relaxed element and mindfulness as you 40 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 3: as you know, so I think the whole thing is cool. 41 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: And a lot of people listen and they go, well, 42 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 2: wait a minute, it sounds like you're actually like huffing 43 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: and puffing, and I's because we're walking. 44 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 3: I know now we're echoing because we're going through a tunnel. Echo, echo. 45 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 2: How many times did you do that? 46 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 3: When you right? Oh my god, they're actually for music 47 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 3: wise just gets great acoustics, so they're often great violin 48 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 3: or cello players just sitting there in the tunnel, which 49 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: is a neat. 50 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: Neat thing too. 51 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 2: So before we talk about your book, let's talk about 52 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: your journey, how you became an investigative reporter and where 53 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 2: did all this start. 54 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 3: Sure, it was always super nosy, like Harriet the Spy 55 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 3: was my chiro as a and I was always making 56 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 3: notes in journals about like various plots that I thought 57 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 3: were happening within my house or within the neighborhood. 58 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: Nothing ever was. 59 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 3: It was very interesting. But when I found out that 60 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 3: you could be a reporter and that that was a 61 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 3: real job, I was like, well, that, I think is 62 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 3: what I want to do. And so I did the 63 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 3: high school paper, I did the college paper, and I 64 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 3: started at a magazine write out of college as a 65 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 3: fact checker. Eventually I got to the New York Times, 66 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 3: where I covered business, and then I covered courts, and 67 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 3: at the Times I wrote my first book, Everybody Rise. 68 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: And then I had to sort of make the choice 69 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: of do I stay at the Times and not have 70 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: time to write a second book, or do I leave 71 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 3: try to combine journalism and novel writing in. 72 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: Some fashion, which is what I decided to do. 73 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 3: So I now write about courts and crime for l 74 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 3: The Atlantic, the New Yorker, several places, and then combine 75 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 3: that with novel writing. 76 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: So where did news to become part of your life? 77 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 3: It's always been so. I I played. I've played piano 78 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 3: since I was I think four. I fell in love 79 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 3: with country music, in particular, which the Farewell Tour is 80 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: set in that world when I was in high school 81 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 3: and I spent a summer at a summer job in 82 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 3: Arkansas working trail maintenance, and the only we only we 83 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 3: were way up in the Wachita Mountains. 84 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: We only got one station and it was country. 85 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 3: And that sort of forced immersion into it made me 86 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,559 Speaker 3: realize that everything I'd heard about country, because I hadn't 87 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 3: really listened to it before, that was wrong. And in 88 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: fact it was this incredibly rich, beautiful genre that I 89 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: hadn't really given much credit or time to. And so 90 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 3: I came back from Seattle. I came back to Seattle. 91 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 3: This was the height of the grunge era, and I 92 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: was like buying Tammy Winnette. 93 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: CDs and nobody knew. 94 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 3: Everybody's like, no, We're going to like an underground r 95 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 3: Vana show. And I was like, I'm listening to George Jones. 96 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 3: So I learned guitar after that because I wanted to 97 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 3: learn some of the country, like the Chris Christofferson songs, 98 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 3: the George and Tammy songs, and that that was sort 99 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 3: of where my love affair with country started. 100 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: And were you writing music back then? 101 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 3: No, I wrote music for the first time for this book. Actually, 102 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 3: I hadn't written music before this, but I've always made 103 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: up like a you know, just tinkering around on the 104 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 3: piano or on the guitar, made up songs. But for 105 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 3: this book, because it's about a country, a honky tonk star, 106 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 3: I started to write about her writing process, and then 107 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 3: I was like, in order to do this properly, I 108 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 3: need to actually sit down and write these songs and 109 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: think about what she would be thinking about in terms 110 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: of the bridge and the chorus and all those parts 111 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 3: of the songs, along with of course the lyrics. 112 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 2: What's sure I'm going to do here? So you wanted 113 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 2: to walk the walk? 114 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: Yeah? I like it. I like it. 115 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 2: Were you scared though, of that writing process? 116 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: Weirdly, No, Like, I get so intimidated about. 117 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 3: Writing articles if I let my you know, reptile brain 118 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 3: take over. I certainly get nervous about novels, but this 119 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 3: was just like there was zero. 120 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: Pressure and zero commercial pressure. 121 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 3: I was like, if this doesn't work out, then I've 122 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 3: tried writing a song, and that's fine. If it does 123 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 3: work out, then I've got a little more information about 124 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 3: what Lily and my main character goes through. So it 125 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 3: was actually so freeing because it just felt like fun. 126 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: It felt like I could tinker and take all the 127 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 3: time I wanted and add in little licks from other 128 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 3: songs that I was listening to and try to represent 129 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 3: what she would have been writing in the fifties and 130 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: sixties and seventies. 131 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: So did you visualize Lilyan first before you started the 132 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: whole process of writing the book. 133 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 3: I knew, I knew sort of the touch points I 134 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: wanted her to hit. So I knew that I wanted 135 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 3: her to be born in Washington State, where I'm from. 136 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 3: I knew that I wanted her to leave home at 137 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 3: age ten. That was actually a real thing that my 138 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: own grandmother did, and we never knew why. My grandmother, 139 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: like a lot of women, a lot of people from 140 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 3: that era, just didn't talk about anything traumatic or upsetting, 141 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 3: and so she would just say I left, I started work. 142 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: That's it. 143 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 3: And so I knew I wanted Lillian to do the 144 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 3: same thing in order to not really solve the mystery 145 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: of why my grandmother left. I don't know why she did, 146 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 3: but to look at what that's like to have to 147 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 3: be on your own from age ten on. So in 148 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: the book, Lilian moves into town to become a hired girl, 149 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 3: which is sort of an underpaid servant, and start supporting 150 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 3: herself from age ten and never returns to her family. 151 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 3: But I wasn't sure about her career. Actually, I was thinking. 152 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 3: I knew I wanted her to have a career that 153 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: would put her into the world that would have her 154 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 3: grappling with what it means to be a woman and 155 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 3: what was done primarily a man's working world. I am 156 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 3: getting out of breath. You're a fast you're a fast walker. 157 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 3: Needed to do cardio training before this. 158 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: We could do a saunter. You're a city walker. 159 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: Love walking. 160 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 3: And so I played around with like, maybe she could 161 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 3: be a nurse, maybe she could work at Boeing, which 162 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 3: was obviously based out there. 163 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: Then, and those weren't really working. 164 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,599 Speaker 3: And then I came across I always read the obituaries. 165 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 1: In the New York Times, sure. 166 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 3: Because they're just like full of fascinating detail. And there 167 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 3: was an oh bit of a country music producer out 168 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 3: of Washington State, and like, as I said, I'd been 169 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: a country music fan, I'm from Washington, but I didn't 170 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 3: think there was any link between the two. And in 171 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: looking into this, I found there was this wonderful moment 172 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 3: in the nineteen fifties when Buck Owens, the founder, a 173 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 3: founder of the California Country Sound, was up in Washington, 174 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 3: when Loretta Lynn was out there, when Don Rich, who 175 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 3: became Buck's electric guitarist, this incredible guitarist, was out there, 176 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 3: and I was like, oh my gosh, that's it. If 177 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 3: I can get Lillian to Tacoma, Washington in the nineteen fifties, 178 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 3: then suddenly she's grappling with being an artist. She's grappling 179 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 3: with her songs and her music and her stage presence 180 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 3: and who she is and who she presents as and 181 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 3: it becomes this really rich, interesting story. 182 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: And like a. 183 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 3: Side note that I didn't think about at the time 184 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 3: but has been such a boon is that it let 185 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: me really dive into country music history and learn so 186 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 3: much more about it, and. 187 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 2: You also delve into the fact that Bakersfield, California, was 188 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: this other hotspot for country, right. 189 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, Bakersfield is where got Owens is from. It's 190 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 3: where Merle Haggard got his start, and a lot of 191 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 3: other Gene Shepherd sang out there. A lot of great 192 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: country singers of the era were kind of in that 193 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: Bakersfield scene. And Lilian she meets up, she meets Buck, 194 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 3: becomes friendly with him. He moves down to Bakersfield to 195 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 3: continue his career, and she goes down and tries to 196 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 3: make it on the honky Tonk circuit there, and that 197 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 3: was really exciting to learn. I knew Buck Owens the songs, 198 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 3: I knew Merle Haggard's, but I don't think I had 199 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 3: a super clear picture of that California country sound, the 200 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 3: sort of electric and rhythm backslap. And I learned about 201 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 3: other musicians like Rose Maddox, who I hadn't known her 202 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 3: work before and now I listened to her constantly. She's 203 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: incredible and she was a real pioneer on the California 204 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 3: country scene. 205 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: So who are some of the women that inspire you 206 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 2: with their great and their resilience, Because obviously this is 207 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: a story worry of tremendous grit. 208 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 1: Yeah. 209 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 3: Part of that was an homage to the woman of 210 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 3: my grandmother's generation. And I think not just of my 211 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 3: grandmother from Washington, but my grandmother here who who was 212 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: born in New York, Like how much they had to 213 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 3: do just to keep going, and how little they could 214 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 3: talk about it. Like when I read some of the 215 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 3: memoirs of country music singers and stars, when they often 216 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 3: would go through something really traumatic, the women would early 217 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 3: in their life and just and just treat it in 218 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 3: a paragraph or something in the book and then not talk. 219 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: About it again. And I was curious. 220 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 3: About that whole mode of being for a women from 221 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 3: that generation, and how how little they could talk about. 222 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: Some of what they went through. 223 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 3: And I I really admire a lot of the women 224 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 3: out of not just out of Nashville, but in the 225 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 3: sort of Americana country today who sing so beautifully about 226 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 3: what's going on in their lives in very real terms. 227 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 3: I think of Amanda Schiers, who you interviewed. I think 228 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 3: of Alison Russell and how it gives them so much 229 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: strength to sort of name what they're going through and 230 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 3: talk about it and sing about it. And I wonder 231 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 3: what it was like for all this woman who couldn't 232 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 3: do that, or who were. 233 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: Taught not to do that. 234 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is an interesting time right now with the 235 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: fact that there's so much genre that's being sort of 236 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 2: busted in terms of categorization. And I know that's a 237 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: central part of the book as well. Can you talk 238 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: about that. 239 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Lillian is. 240 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 3: From a honky tonk background, and by the time she 241 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 3: finally gets to Nashville after going through Washington and. 242 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: Bakersfield, she's forty years old. 243 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: And I did that on purpose because I think we 244 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 3: have all, well, we all sort of know or can guess, 245 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 3: the story of the Angenue coming to Nashville and being 246 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 3: told you've got to wear this, you've got to dress 247 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 3: this way, you've got to sing this. Lillian at forty 248 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 3: really knows the trade off she's making and she's willing 249 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 3: to do it, and I thought that was a much 250 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: more interesting story. 251 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: She is an electric guitar player. 252 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 3: She has a Fender Telecaster that she adores, and at 253 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: her first recording session in Nashville, she has a producer, 254 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 3: Coroy Ray, who's really good for her in a lot 255 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 3: of ways. But Coira says like, put that thing away. 256 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 3: Can't I can't sell a forty something divorce, and I 257 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: certainly can't sell a forty something divorce. Playing electric guitar, 258 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 3: it's like nineteen sixty three in Nashville, and Lilian puts 259 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 3: it away, and she this moment where she's putting it 260 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 3: back in its case, and all the other musicians can't 261 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 3: even look because they know what it means to have 262 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 3: to put away your instrument. Yeah, but she at that 263 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 3: point has worked so hard with so little success that 264 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 3: she's willing to do it, and she's willing to make 265 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 3: the trade offs. And she knows by the time she's 266 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 3: on the book obviously it's called the Farewell Tour. By 267 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 3: the time she's on her Farewell Tour in nineteen eighty, 268 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 3: she knows that this is going to be her last chance, 269 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 3: probably to perform. She's been diagnosed with career ending vocal problems, 270 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 3: but also if she ever wants to sing sort of 271 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 3: the truth about her life, this is going to be 272 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 3: her chance to do that. And so she has to decide, 273 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 3: am I willing to do that? Am I brave enough 274 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 3: to do that? 275 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: You mentioned Amanda and the character in the Farewell tour 276 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 2: the fiddle player. I can't help thinking a little bit 277 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: about Amanda and her spunk, but talk about the character. 278 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, Kiori, who is the fiddle player on the farewell 279 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 3: on the last tour. So she that was a character 280 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 3: that was so much fun to write because she started 281 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 3: literally as a side person in Lilian's band. I didn't 282 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 3: think of Kri having much of a role besides playing 283 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 3: fiddle on. 284 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: This last tour, and then she just. 285 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 3: Kept developing more and more and having more to say. 286 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 3: So she shows up Lillian, who's, you know, been brought up. 287 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 3: Lillian's born in twenty four, so she's been brought up 288 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 3: a certain way. Kayor shows up sort of brawless, you know, 289 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 3: loose hair hanging down, and Lilian immediately disapproves, but as 290 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 3: she hears Kaor play, she realizes she's not only very good, 291 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 3: but incredibly hard working, which impresses Lilian, and the two 292 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 3: of them start to talk to each other and eventually 293 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 3: to become friends, and Lilian develops what at first I 294 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 3: think there is a grudging respect and then is an 295 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 3: actual pure respect for Kayor and her work and her 296 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 3: Carie is also a songwriter, and Kayori pushes Lian in 297 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: other ways where she's from different generation. She's from a 298 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: generation that asks questions about the past, that faces difficult things. 299 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 3: And Lilian comes to find out that Kayor's mother had 300 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: been interned in the Japanese American internment camps in the West, 301 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: and Kayri wants to stop by one of the camps 302 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 3: where her mother was interned and take a look at it. 303 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 3: And Lilian's immediate response, being from another generation, is like. 304 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: Why would you do that? 305 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 3: That might be upsetting, and Kayri says, that's what we 306 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 3: have to do. We have to face the past and 307 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: we have to talk about it. And I think Lilian 308 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 3: and seeing Kaor face is really difficult part of her 309 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 3: own past, gets the courage then to ultimately go back 310 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: to Washington and grapple with Lilian's past. 311 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 2: That's quite a storyline, my god. And the way the 312 00:16:54,440 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: relationship unfolds is really fascinating because it's pretty edgy at times. 313 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: Pretty edgy. 314 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 3: Kaori stands up for herself in a way that a 315 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 3: lot of people don't with Lilian because she's Lily in 316 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 3: such a strong personality that kind of if you don't, 317 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 3: if you don't push back, she'll bowl you over, and 318 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 3: I think Lillian also, you know, she's built up all 319 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 3: of these walls around her. She's had to in order 320 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 3: to survive. And as she connects with Kor as she 321 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 3: connects with Charlie, who's her band leader or her longtime friend, 322 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 3: her kind of musical equal, she lets down a little 323 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 3: bit of that and realizes she doesn't have to be 324 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 3: this toss impenetrable person all the time. 325 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 2: Talk about how being an investigative reporter helped you in 326 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 2: this process, because you really go deep in terms of 327 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: the music, and you know the Weavil Blues, Rainy, and 328 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 2: we talk about how that really helped you writing this 329 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: being so detailed and fact checking. 330 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean one part is the fact checking. That 331 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 3: was my first job out of college. And that's a 332 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 3: job where literally you're going through a magazine piece written 333 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 3: by somebody else, underlining every fact and confirming it with 334 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 3: a third party source. So you learn research and you 335 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: learn what's accurate, and you learn what trustworthy sources are. 336 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 3: And with something like this, people rightly take music so 337 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: seriously and take country music so seriously as they should. 338 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: And I was like, I. 339 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 3: Do not want to get a single thing wrong, Like 340 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 3: I don't want to get a date wrong. I don't 341 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 3: want to get a record label wrong. I don't want 342 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 3: to get a technology wrong. 343 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: So I spent a ton of time in libraries. 344 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 3: There's an excellent Performing Arts library here in New York, 345 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 3: and they, the librarians there were so fantastic where they 346 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 3: brought out like acetate, so I could see how big 347 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 3: an acetate was, so I could imagine would Lilian be 348 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 3: bringing an Acetate, which were demo records back in the day, 349 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 3: in her purse or what you have to do like 350 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 3: a special bag for it, or would she just be carrying. 351 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: It they I also wanted to. 352 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 3: Kind of subtly but clearly show some of the influences 353 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 3: on country music. 354 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: So you mentioned bo Weevil Blues. That's a song Lil. 355 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 3: Here is when she's a kid at a Wallala Lalla 356 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 3: farm where she lives Walla Walla, Washington, which is quite rural. 357 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: And I think. 358 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 3: There's been a split into sort of country music and 359 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: other kinds of music. 360 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: Since since the Bristol sessions. 361 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: And I wanted to kind of underline all the things 362 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 3: that bring music and people together, so that Lilian listening 363 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 3: to this record recorded by Ma Rainey would completely understand 364 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 3: what a bowl weevil was, why it was problematic, why 365 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 3: you'd have the blues about it, because she's they've got 366 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 3: bull weavil's in there in their flower too, So I 367 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 3: wanted to bring in some of the other influence is 368 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 3: on country, like blues, like rock, like jazz, and as 369 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: Lilian is teaching herself about country music, which is largely 370 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 3: when she's in Tacoma during World War Two, she's working 371 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 3: at a radio station and she spends. 372 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: A ton of time in the library there. It is 373 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: listening to. 374 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 3: Different records, but she's also listening to Charlie Christian and 375 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 3: she's listening to George Vanett's, and she's listening to all 376 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 3: of these things that are not classically country, but certainly 377 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 3: influenced the sound. 378 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: And I couldn't help but think that it's crazy during 379 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 2: the time that Lilian was growing up, that there were 380 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: bank failures, and the irony has struck me thinking about. 381 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 3: Now, yes, yeah, that she grows up on a Depression 382 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 3: era farm that has a mortgage and her dad is 383 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 3: sort of torn between logging, which is his real love, 384 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 3: and he inherited this farm that he's supposed to run 385 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 3: but has little interest in running and so Lilian like. 386 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 3: At one point she sees the actual mortgage paper and 387 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 3: she realizes there's no way they can make it, Like 388 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 3: she doesn't know that much about her family's finances, but 389 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 3: she knows they're not going to make the mortgage, and 390 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 3: the banks are failing. People in town are selling all 391 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 3: of their possessions for nothing. So the whole era of 392 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 3: the book was so fascinating because you go from the 393 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 3: Depression to World War Two to JFK's assassination, which plays 394 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 3: a role in the book, and it's just just a. 395 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: Super rich these super rich decades of history. 396 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: Did you do some research at the Country Music Qual 397 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 2: of Fame? 398 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 3: I did a little bit of It was during COVID 399 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 3: most of it, so I couldn't go, but they have 400 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 3: great online resources. 401 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: Bakersfield, the cal State Library there. 402 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 3: Has incredible resources at the Bakersfield Sound with a bunch 403 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 3: of oral interviews of different producers musicians. 404 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: So those were both fabulous resources. 405 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 3: And then I was able to go to Walla, Walla 406 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 3: and Tacoma in person and do do research on those towns. 407 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: And get a sense of what they were like in 408 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: Mill's era. 409 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 2: Another fabulous Nashville museum that's often unheralded, and I think 410 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 2: it sort of speaks to the richness the way you 411 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 2: pursue the genres in the book. Is the African American 412 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 2: Music Hall of Fame. I don't know if you've ever 413 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: checked out. No, it's pretty remarkable, and I think people 414 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 2: sort of forget about where the roots played played a role. Yes, yes, 415 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 2: when you first went to Nashville. When was that? 416 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: The first time I went was for a wedding, so 417 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: it was. 418 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 2: Oh, you were one of those. 419 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: Those people are maybe two thousand and eight or something. 420 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: But you talk about the Ryman too. Did you tour 421 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 2: the Ryman when you were there? 422 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, so all of Tootsie's, all of those spots were 423 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: so incredible, and I. 424 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: Should mention I just got to go back to Nashville 425 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: for an event there, so the book for the book also. 426 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 3: And the Country Music Hall of Fame happened to have 427 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 3: this Western exhibit. So I walk in and there's Rose 428 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 3: Maddox's costume, there's Graham Parson's from the cover or from. 429 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 2: The Brito Brothers. 430 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, Burrito Brothers, I think guilded Palace of Sin. That 431 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 3: white the white nudy suit. So it was just unbelievable 432 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 3: to walk in and see, like Graham Parson's guitar, All 433 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 3: of these things were so cool. 434 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, we had Paul Kingsbury, who's the sort of the 435 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: curator there, the historian of the Country Music Hall of Fame. 436 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 2: So I did see that exhibit, and I think it 437 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: was really beautifully done. 438 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: Really, and it's so neat to hear. 439 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 3: That music overhead, because you don't hear it in pub 440 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 3: book really, right, you don't hear like Graham Parsons playing 441 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 3: at a grocery store, and suddenly you're hearing Graham Parsons 442 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 3: and Linda Ronstadt, Amie Lou Harris, and it's so incredible 443 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 3: to walk through and just hear that at once. 444 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 2: Just recently discovered Graham Parsons just went to Harvard. 445 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Didn't you drop out? 446 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? 447 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: Oh that Holme star. 448 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 2: You sure did. 449 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: All the interesting ones drop out. 450 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 451 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 2: So as you think about the state of music and 452 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 2: females and country music, and you think about Lilian, what 453 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 2: would she say about it today? 454 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: That's a great question. 455 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 3: I think she would be frustrated by the top fifty, 456 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 3: which is still I think only ten twelve percent woman. 457 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 3: But I think she would also look outside the top 458 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 3: fifty and look at all of these artists, Margot Price, 459 00:24:54,080 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 3: Randon Giddens, look at what they're doing and how how 460 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 3: kind of proudly and strongly they're telling their stories and 461 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 3: the stories of other women, and be like, WHOA, that's 462 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 3: something amazing. 463 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: That's fantastic. Like they're fighting the good fight and. 464 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 3: They're winning, even if it's not may not be getting 465 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 3: onto Billboard Top fifty, but it's it's just beautiful, moving music. 466 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 2: So you think she would appreciate the Margo Prices of 467 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 2: the world. 468 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: Totally, totally. She'd want to tour with her. 469 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: She would. I would be front row for that one 470 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 2: for sure. So what are you working on next? 471 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 3: I'm starting my next book, so I'm just doing research 472 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:41,959 Speaker 3: for it. 473 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: Now. You just can't rest, Okay, I can't rest. 474 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 3: I've got a couple magazine articles in the works that 475 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 3: I've been sort of starting reporting on. 476 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: And that's yeah, that's the that's most of it. 477 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: What do you can you tell that's what you're thinking about? 478 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 2: Even in the germ, you know. 479 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 3: I keep throwing out ideas, So if this one sticks, 480 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 3: I'll definitely tell you. But I've already thrown out three ideas. 481 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 3: It's funny to I write books over a long period 482 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 3: of time. I admire people who can write them in 483 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 3: six months or a year, but that's not me. 484 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: And so I have to really want to spend time 485 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: with the characters. 486 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 3: And I had been working on this book about like 487 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 3: six people out. 488 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: On Long Island, and about a month ago, I was like, 489 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: I don't like these people. I don't want to spend 490 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: time with them. 491 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 3: I was like, I didn't even want to spend another 492 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 3: day with them, like I gotta, And so I threw 493 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 3: that one out and started fresh. You have to love 494 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 3: and be interested in your characters. And it like Lillian 495 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 3: and Charlie are often still with me, like popping up 496 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 3: telling me what they think about this or about that, 497 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 3: And I'm so glad to have them still with me 498 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 3: that I want to really love the characters as much 499 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 3: for the next novel. 500 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 2: And the music composition part, we touched on it earlier. Yeah, 501 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 2: So tell me about some of the songs and how 502 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: they came into your head and you channeled them through Lillian. 503 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: Yeah. 504 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 3: So I think the first song I wrote was water Lil, 505 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 3: which is meant to be her first number one hit. 506 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 3: Her producer says like, we need you need basically a nickname. 507 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 3: Can you like tell me about your past? She starts 508 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 3: telling him, and he says, why don't we like we're 509 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 3: going to cut some years off your life anyway. I 510 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 3: don't half of her life, but off of her age anyway. 511 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: And she mentions there's this walla wall of flood when 512 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 3: she was a kid, and he's like, okay, water Li, 513 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 3: like we can work with that, that'll work. And so 514 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 3: at first I didn't have any lyrics, any music. It 515 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 3: was just this idea that she had a song water Lit. 516 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 3: But then like Lillian was like, no, no, no, I want 517 00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 3: to write the song. I want to figure this out. 518 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 3: So I write at first on piano, which is more 519 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 3: fluid on piano, and then translated to guitar to make 520 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 3: sure it makes sense that the chord transitions and such 521 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 3: would make sense in guitar. There's another one called Woman's Work, 522 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 3: which she writes. It's the first song she ever writes, 523 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 3: and she's this is with her band in World War 524 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 3: two era Tacoma. They're playing, they're sitting around playing gene 525 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 3: Autry back in the saddle again and it's not working 526 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 3: that sees five. 527 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: Women who. 528 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 3: Like they can't get any feeling out of it, and 529 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 3: finally they realize like, oh, we never really got to 530 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 3: go in this fat like if we were on a horse, 531 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 3: it was for working for like plot in the fields 532 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 3: or bringing water to in from the field, like we 533 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 3: never just got to go out and ride free. And 534 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 3: so Lilian starts thinking about this, and she writes the 535 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 3: song Women's Work from the phrase a woman's. 536 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: Work is never done. 537 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 3: But it starts with this like schoolyard chant of these 538 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 3: the little girls might sing, that's like wash it, dry it. 539 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: Cook could make it. 540 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 3: And her thinking is like even in schoolyards, boys are 541 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 3: throwing balls and getting messy and getting muddy, and girls 542 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: are playing these almost domestic games. 543 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: And so she plays off of that for this woman's 544 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: Work song. 545 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: Who are some of the writers you admire? 546 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: Oh? God, where do we start? 547 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: Right? 548 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: I know, where do we start? 549 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 3: John Prine certainly, Oh there's so many. I love this 550 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 3: sort of storytelling quality that the asides and the John try. 551 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 3: I was just listening, of course to Gordon Lightfoot, yes, 552 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 3: and so I've been listening NonStop to him. But just 553 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 3: it's a song that would work without these like two 554 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 3: word asides. But then he just throws in something and 555 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 3: you're just like, like looking at the rain, for instance, 556 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 3: it's looking at the wall, wishing you'd call and tell 557 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 3: me you're okay. And then he pauses, and then he says, 558 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 3: that's all, and that that little twist is just so good. 559 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 3: So a lot of the singer songwriters, Emmie Lou Harris 560 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 3: Dotley Carton certainly is just a stunner on every. 561 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: Facet. There are just so. 562 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 3: Many, so many songs from that era especially that just 563 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 3: make you stop it. 564 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: And how about novelists that you admire? 565 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: Where do we start there? 566 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 3: Right? 567 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: Where do we start there? 568 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 3: My first novel was inspired by Edith Wharton, so I 569 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 3: think of the classic, the classic or at least Gilded 570 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 3: Age novelists. She had such an eye for detail and 571 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 3: for social status that I really admired. While as Stegner, 572 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 3: I think, writes so beautifully about the West in a 573 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 3: way that I was really inspired by this book. I 574 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 3: tried to encapsulate. He writes about a different part of 575 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 3: the West. He writes about California, Anceskatchawan, but the sort 576 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 3: of dry rod West, And I was trying to write 577 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 3: about that in a similar way with the Northwest, which 578 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 3: is much more bountiful and sort of forgiving as a landscape. 579 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: But I think his. 580 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 3: Like his portraits of marriages are just so they just 581 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 3: cut you to your heart. You kind of like, I 582 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 3: feel like I. 583 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: Can't get up for three days after reading Stay in 584 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: your book because they're so fabulous. I read, you know, 585 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: I read a. 586 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 3: Lot of classic Western literature as I researched this book 587 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 3: and thought about what I wanted to touch on, so 588 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 3: Grapes of Wrath certainly, and one thing that I wanted 589 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 3: to shift about that was even in books that I 590 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 3: really admire, like groups of wrath, the women are not 591 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 3: centric and they're not really allowed to leave their homes. 592 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: Like they're they're sort of modjode Is. 593 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 3: You see her in camp or on the on the truck, 594 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 3: but other than that, you don't really see her out 595 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 3: in the world doing much. And I wanted to take 596 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 3: that sort of strong Western woman and put her out 597 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 3: in the world and see what happened, which is Lilian 598 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 3: and she argues with everybody basically what happens. 599 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 2: Talk about how you're engaging with folks in the reading community, 600 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 2: both with sort of you know book discussion groups, but 601 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 2: also how you know sharing playlists? So how are you 602 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 2: connecting with fans and how can folks find that? 603 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, so Stephanie Clifford dot net is my website. 604 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: There you can sign up for. 605 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 3: A Zoom book club discussion and I've done a few 606 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 3: of those and it's really great. It's I've done bookstore 607 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 3: visits and other sort of more formal author events, which 608 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 3: are also great, but at the Zoom events, everybody's everybody's 609 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 3: read the book or apprehending they have, so you just 610 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 3: get really interesting questions about things I'd never thought about, 611 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 3: like why did you make this choice? Or why do 612 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 3: you have Charlie do this? Or you know, why not 613 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 3: have Lilian stay in Washington? Just like plot choices, but 614 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 3: people talking about it in a way where the characters 615 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 3: are almost as real to them, maybe as as they 616 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 3: are to me. 617 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: And so it's so it's so much fun. 618 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 3: To talk to readers about why you do what you do, 619 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 3: and half the. 620 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: Time you don't. As a writer, you don't. They're not 621 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: super conscious choices. 622 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 3: So you get these questions that really make you reflect 623 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 3: on why, Like why did I do that? 624 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: Was that the right choice? 625 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 3: There's a Spotify playlist that takes you through it's mostly women, 626 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 3: but also some of the influences on Lilian in the book, 627 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 3: and that's all so linked. 628 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: On my website. 629 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 3: And then I just love hearing from readers, so my 630 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 3: contact information is on the website. 631 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: People have been emailing me with suggestions on who will 632 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: listen to. 633 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 3: And it's been a It's so fun having a book 634 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 3: in the world and being able to finally talk about 635 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 3: talk about it with people. 636 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 2: The book is mesmerizing, it's cinematic. It's really a triumph 637 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 2: and we put some. 638 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: Steps on today too. We did. Thanks Tiffany, thank you. 639 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: Appreciate you taking a walk in person. 640 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: I loved it. 641 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 2: Taking a Walk with Buzznight is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, 642 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.