Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host, Joshua
Speaker 1: to Pulski, I'm back, and I should say that two things.
Speaker 1: One is Lyra, my producer. We were on video a
Speaker 1: second ago, and now her video is I have to
Speaker 1: take a screenshot at this because it's almost kind of beautiful.
Speaker 1: Something has happened to her image, her video image here
Speaker 1: that it has just turned it into a kind of
Speaker 1: purple hued gradient, pixelated blur. Lyra, are you we're seeing
Speaker 1: this on your end? No, it's just normal video for me. Really,
Speaker 1: did you do a screenshot? I did a screenshot. I'm
Speaker 1: going to share now he went back to normal. I'm
Speaker 1: going to share with you. Not a great look for me,
Speaker 1: but for you. Kind of a transcendent? Is it my aura?
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's fucking pretty beautiful, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to send it to you right now. Well I
Speaker 1: just have to here we go, Oh wow, that interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know where they came from, but it's kind
Speaker 1: of beautiful. It reminds me of old Microsoft word gradients. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can see where you're coming from with that. The
Speaker 1: word art at any rate. So you know, we're just
Speaker 1: starting the show here and then we had this weird
Speaker 1: little glitch where you turned into a beautiful purple gradient,
Speaker 1: which I think is really says everything you need to
Speaker 1: know about today's episode. I believe you know. I don't
Speaker 1: want to waste any time because it's a great conversation
Speaker 1: for the listener to hear and I think for us
Speaker 1: to experience as a group together. My guest today is
Speaker 1: an incredible comedian, a fantastic writer, an Emmy Award winner,
Speaker 1: old friend of mine, and someone I'm so pleased to
Speaker 1: have on the show. I'm of course talking about Sarah Schaeffer,
Speaker 1: the one and only we met on Late Night with
Speaker 1: Jimmy Fallon. Yeah, it was a long time ago. I
Speaker 1: think Obama was president when we met. Yeah, just to
Speaker 1: give you an idea, I'm trying to think he ran
Speaker 1: against McCain? Is that right? Was that the first? And
Speaker 1: then he who was the who did he run against
Speaker 1: for the second one? This is fucked up? Mitt Romney?
Speaker 1: Or was Mitt Romney twenty twelve? Yeah? Mitt Romney was
Speaker 1: was twenty twelve? I think? Okay, Lyras say yes it
Speaker 1: was not in yes, So the first one was John McCain,
Speaker 1: who everybody loved the Maverick. Great guy. Yeah, great guy.
Speaker 1: Uh pow. And then Sarah Palin was his running mate.
Speaker 1: By the way, that's not what we were supposed to
Speaker 1: be talking about, but it's fine. What are we supposed
Speaker 1: to be talking about? Eric Plin was like a proto
Speaker 1: Trump in a way, like she was really racist. She
Speaker 1: was always talking about how like white people weren't getting
Speaker 1: a fair shake. Yeah it was. It was tea party, Yeah,
Speaker 1: tea Party ship, the Rise of the Tea Party. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And now, of course we have empirical data to support
Speaker 1: that white people have never gotten a fair shake. Oh. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it's so unfair, speaking as it as a Jew who
Speaker 1: passes for white. Um. You know, I can tell you
Speaker 1: I've hit a lot of roadblocks in my life. So
Speaker 1: then yeah, once twelve he ran against Mitt Romney. Remember
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney had the big scandal, the binders full of
Speaker 1: women scandal, which I don't even remember that, yea what
Speaker 1: it was about, but whatever, I see a binder. Here's
Speaker 1: how fucking impactful the Binder's full of women thing was.
Speaker 1: I have a daughter. Her name is Zelda. She is
Speaker 1: nine years old, and she's into musicals and she puts
Speaker 1: together like scripts from musicals in binders. We have binders,
Speaker 1: so many binders in the house, and every fucking time
Speaker 1: I see one, and every time I mentioned one, my
Speaker 1: brain immediately goes to the phrase binders full of women.
Speaker 1: It's like automatic, well, it's crazy. Do you remember what
Speaker 1: the binders were? I believe somebody asked him, like at
Speaker 1: a town hall or an interview or something like, you know,
Speaker 1: are you gonna employ women? Are you gonna put women
Speaker 1: in your cabinet? I think he was like, oh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've got binders full of women, and it just came
Speaker 1: off bad, like we were files, you know, like we
Speaker 1: were like yeah, yeah, and and just like a man
Speaker 1: should not say he has binders full of women. Like
Speaker 1: it was just and yeah, and it sounded creepy a
Speaker 1: little bit. And it didn't help him beat Obama. No
Speaker 1: it did not. But all right, Sarah, let me just
Speaker 1: say now that we've been talking for a few minutes.
Speaker 1: You are a comedian. Yeah, unfortunately you stand up comedy.
Speaker 1: You have several several albums, right, more than one? Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have two albums severe, Yeah, I'm good accounting. And
Speaker 1: in case you're wondering, this is Sarah Schaeffer, a pronouncing
Speaker 1: that right. Yeah, yeah, does they may ever pronounce it wrong? Actually,
Speaker 1: it was so funny. I did this stand up show
Speaker 1: in LA and it was like this young hip show,
Speaker 1: and I felt very old. I've been around long enough
Speaker 1: in comedy where some younger comedians treat me with respect.
Speaker 1: Others don't. They're like, who are you? That's interesting, But
Speaker 1: some like are like, oh, miss Shaffer, welcome, you know,
Speaker 1: like that kind of thing. Really they say, they say,
Speaker 1: miss Schaeffer, Wow, that's nice. No, No, that's the attitude.
Speaker 1: Though he had obviously been taught always ask how people's
Speaker 1: names are pronounced right, because it was the host and
Speaker 1: he's like, how do you say your last name? Is
Speaker 1: it Chaffer? And he like almost put a French accent on,
Speaker 1: And I was like, that's kind of a twist, though,
Speaker 1: that might be a new thing for you. I was like,
Speaker 1: I've never heard of there of any I've maybe heard
Speaker 1: schaffer Schaffer. I could see that if they spelled a
Speaker 1: different way. But yeah, it was like a chaff there.
Speaker 1: You know, this this new generation. Yeah, they're so so respectful,
Speaker 1: they're so ahead of the curve that they'll completely change
Speaker 1: the pronunciation of your name. They never assume assume that
Speaker 1: any of the letters would pronounce how they're supposed to be.
Speaker 1: It could be absolutely anything going on in that name. Well,
Speaker 1: I've noticed in my zoomer niece and nephew. I have
Speaker 1: a niece and nephew who are sixteen and eighteen years old. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh they're that's very old. They're like grown up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They frequently will refer to people as they. Yeah, that's right,
Speaker 1: even though I know that they know it's a woman,
Speaker 1: you know that they're talking about. But they'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: you mean somebody who isn't requesting or doesn't want to
Speaker 1: be They will they default today as a as a
Speaker 1: sort of like, oh, well, maybe that person isn't she
Speaker 1: or he? They wouldn't assume, right, And I've noticed that
Speaker 1: happening at like comedy shows where the host will be like,
Speaker 1: they're a very funny comedian and you would never have
Speaker 1: heard that before. And I just think it's becoming part
Speaker 1: of language to refer to general people as they kind
Speaker 1: of like how there was a while where we were
Speaker 1: referring to general people as dude, Like dudes, dude, you know,
Speaker 1: and you would refer to guy, hey, guys. That's the
Speaker 1: classic example like guys and you, you mean, everybody. So
Speaker 1: I don't think they're being like I'm not assuming general.
Speaker 1: I don't think they're being overly sensitive. I just think
Speaker 1: that that's more normal for them to, like, you think
Speaker 1: it's like a pattern, like a speech pattern now that
Speaker 1: like people are just saying. I think it's both. I
Speaker 1: think it came from being more aware of various pronouns
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and now I think it's kind
Speaker 1: of becoming like more and more people just referring to
Speaker 1: people they don't know as they right, it's a safe bet.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, that's a stranger. I don't really know
Speaker 1: who they are. It's like, oh, wow, the kids are
Speaker 1: going to be okay. That's interesting because it's both like
Speaker 1: much more modern obviously to consider the possibility that someone
Speaker 1: may not be the pronoun you may assume they are.
Speaker 1: But also it's it's like utilitarian is what you're saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: which is basically like it gets out of the whole
Speaker 1: need to specify, you know, which is I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess that sort of makes sense. I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: I endorse any pronoun. I'm happy to use that pronoun
Speaker 1: whatever makes the person most comfortable whatever they feel comfortable with. However,
Speaker 1: the only time I get tripped up, and I probably
Speaker 1: have talked about this before on some podcasts in the past,
Speaker 1: is the use of them in a written sentence when
Speaker 1: I'm grazing it, Like when I'm kind of like reading
Speaker 1: through something kind of quickly. I often will be like,
Speaker 1: wait a second, are there two people? Because it's not
Speaker 1: clear in writing, you know, and this is a minor
Speaker 1: is very minor and kind of meaningless gripe, but it does.
Speaker 1: It just takes from getting used to kind of be
Speaker 1: a little bit extra careful on pars in it. I
Speaker 1: actually find it the opposite. Really, I think in writing,
Speaker 1: I'm fine with it because I'm used to news articles
Speaker 1: referring to someone that they don't know, like the perpetrator
Speaker 1: they were seen last scene, you know, like if you
Speaker 1: don't know the gender, they'll just say they like who
Speaker 1: left this here? They need to come get this. You're
Speaker 1: referring to one person, but you don't know who it was, right,
Speaker 1: So in writing, I'm actually okay with it. I've struggled
Speaker 1: with friends that have changed their pronouns today, right, and
Speaker 1: I've had trouble while talking referring to them as they. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is harder to adjust for me in a sentence
Speaker 1: when I know I used to refer to them as
Speaker 1: she or he and now I have to change it today.
Speaker 1: Do we sound ancient right now? I'm just yet. Do
Speaker 1: we sound like we're a billion years old? We're like,
Speaker 1: this is like I'm pretty soon I'm going to send
Speaker 1: you a meme like these don't exist anymore. It'll be
Speaker 1: like a rotary fund and stuff like we're just a
Speaker 1: few moments away from that, right. Well, one of my friends,
Speaker 1: the first person I ever knew that changed their pronouns today.
Speaker 1: I was talking to them about it and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's it's actually kind of challenging, and they were like,
Speaker 1: I know, and I know the difference between someone who's
Speaker 1: trying and miss genders me accidentally and someone who is
Speaker 1: being aggressive with it or disrespectful, like rude's being rude? Right,
Speaker 1: They were like, I know the difference, Like, if you
Speaker 1: just spend all your days on Twitter, you think that,
Speaker 1: you know, people are screaming in your face in person
Speaker 1: for not getting the pronouns perfectly every time. Nobody's doing that, right,
Speaker 1: nobody's doing that. I mean, and if they are, then
Speaker 1: that's an asshole. I mean, like, I don't know, right,
Speaker 1: it's the problem of like a person who's fucking with
Speaker 1: you or intentionally not caring or whatever. Is a different
Speaker 1: situation than Yeah. I mean, I know exactly what you're saying.
Speaker 1: I think what's tough, what actually is tough? Just generally speaking.
Speaker 1: I don't have no idea. I don't even remember how
Speaker 1: we got this conversation. It's because we're now we're down.
Speaker 1: Now we're making headlines. Now we're now we're making headlines,
Speaker 1: like we're both Actually this is a total aside. I
Speaker 1: was scrolling through Twitter and I saw a tweet of yours.
Speaker 1: This is gonna this is either gonna be really uncomfortable
Speaker 1: and gross or great. Oh no, but I saw a
Speaker 1: tweet of yours and it's I stopped. I don't remember exactly. O. God,
Speaker 1: I shouldn't even bring this up to say it, say it,
Speaker 1: but I stopped in my feed. I was like, is
Speaker 1: Sarah talking about squirting? Oh my god? How old are
Speaker 1: we going back in these taps? So I don't know,
Speaker 1: I just saw it, just like a month ago. You
Speaker 1: were like referencing you know what, Yeah, Splash Mountain. So
Speaker 1: here thing, I hadn't heard Your Believe the second album, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's my first album. Yeah, I didn't hear the joke. Okay,
Speaker 1: so wait, you're very PG in my mind for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: I don't know why. Like maybe it's because I'm overall
Speaker 1: very wholesome, but I have some very dirty jokes. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Well I was like, is that it's Sarah bit about
Speaker 1: this or whatever for Shaffer? That's what it was like.
Speaker 1: Then I really listened to it, and I was fucking scandalized.
Speaker 1: I was like, I can't. I don't know what to
Speaker 1: think anymore. I don't now now. I was like, now
Speaker 1: I know hardcore sex comedian. Imagine my family, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: that is this kind of thing I do imagine. Actually,
Speaker 1: I'm like, what would a family member, you know, Like
Speaker 1: I think about in my in my running gags that
Speaker 1: I'm going to get into comedy at some point. Um,
Speaker 1: And I think all the time about things I'd like
Speaker 1: to say about myself or people that I know, And
Speaker 1: it feels like it would just be a constant torrent
Speaker 1: of having to hear from my family about it. Um
Speaker 1: if they ever if they ever heard any of it.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, this is sex. There's a fair amount of
Speaker 1: sex jokes on my first album, and it's just because
Speaker 1: that's what I was like, uh talking about at the time.
Speaker 1: It's what I was going through, um, and the experiences
Speaker 1: I was having was I had just gotten divorced and
Speaker 1: my first husband was like, um, my first boyfriend, and
Speaker 1: so it was like my first I was in my thirties,
Speaker 1: having like a single dating experience in my twenties that
Speaker 1: most people would have in their twenties. So a lot
Speaker 1: of my material was about that at the time, and
Speaker 1: then I ended up putting it on an album. You
Speaker 1: know it takes ears, yeah, and then yeah, I've heard
Speaker 1: you do some of that, but not the not I
Speaker 1: merely would do because I never was fully uh into it,
Speaker 1: but it always crushed so hard when I did, and um, honestly,
Speaker 1: part of why I stopped doing it is especially the
Speaker 1: joke I will call it splash Mountain. That's it, splash
Speaker 1: splash mountains. You made a reference tweet mountain clothes. Slash
Speaker 1: Mountain did close, and yeah for me as well for
Speaker 1: me as well. Uh wow, Okay, that's it's almost medical
Speaker 1: form here that I prepare for the show but I
Speaker 1: stopped doing the joke. A lot of the reason I
Speaker 1: stopped doing it, which is so um sad, is because
Speaker 1: every time I did it. I'm talking every time I
Speaker 1: did that joke, the comedian after me would make a
Speaker 1: comment about it or corner me in the dressing room
Speaker 1: in the green room to grill me with questions about it,
Speaker 1: like I was some sort of like, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: some miracle of science, like female comedians would cord I
Speaker 1: was gonna say, that doesn't sound totally male, so it
Speaker 1: wouldn't be anything. Yeah, you're right, I'm sorry. I'm just
Speaker 1: so used to being around men in this business. Male
Speaker 1: comedians would not be able to not say anything about it,
Speaker 1: Like they just had to comment on it, come up
Speaker 1: to me and like and and if I was able
Speaker 1: to interact with audience members afterwards, men would say things
Speaker 1: to me too. And it just started to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I feel like i've somehow they think because I said that,
Speaker 1: because it's extremely intimate, that that means that I want
Speaker 1: to have a conversation about their pe fetish like right, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's like I don't know, and you know, it
Speaker 1: was really funny. I got it out of my system.
Speaker 1: And I'm proud of those jokes. I love. I was
Speaker 1: listening to that old album the other day for like
Speaker 1: looking for things to do on TikTok or something like
Speaker 1: ideas of like recycling all jokes and um, and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, that ship was so funny and I
Speaker 1: had such a good time. Oh those were the days,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, but yes, that was h you did
Speaker 1: not imagine that on my Twitter feet. It was this
Speaker 1: weird sequence of events, which and like now I feel
Speaker 1: like I sound like a creep, but what happened was yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it was just that it wasn't not say so.
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, no, totally, I get it. But here's
Speaker 1: what's funny about that story. First off, it is a
Speaker 1: very funny bit. I mean, it is very funny. And
Speaker 1: it's also like I stand behind it, you know, like
Speaker 1: I I think it's really original and funny. It's one
Speaker 1: of those things where it's it's so personal. It's the
Speaker 1: kind of thing you just people don't talk about ever.
Speaker 1: And obviously comedy goes to places where people don't talk
Speaker 1: about it. But I think that even for even for comedy,
Speaker 1: this is a topic or this is a kind of topic. Obviously,
Speaker 1: only a female comedian what we could do or probably,
Speaker 1: I mean, men have tried. I'm sure. I'm sure, I'm
Speaker 1: sure because they would do it every time. After I
Speaker 1: wouldn't go on and do that joke, they would have
Speaker 1: to try and make a joke about it. Of course. Um,
Speaker 1: But the reason I started telling that joke because I
Speaker 1: was filled with enormous shame on the topic. And one
Speaker 1: of the reasons I started telling the joke is because, um,
Speaker 1: without getting into too many details, a male comedian that
Speaker 1: I was entangled with at one point, I saw him
Speaker 1: at a show and he made fun of me. Oh,
Speaker 1: he didn't say my name, but he knew I was
Speaker 1: in the room, and he would argue that he wasn't
Speaker 1: making fun of me, that he was like admiring it.
Speaker 1: But I was so embarrassed by it, and no one
Speaker 1: knew and it was just like except people I had
Speaker 1: had intimate relationship with, right, so I never told anyone,
Speaker 1: and it just felt so humiliating and such a betrayal
Speaker 1: of privacy, Like and again he didn't say my name,
Speaker 1: but like he's looking to write at me. It just
Speaker 1: it was like something he was doing to me in
Speaker 1: that moment, just for me to hear what he was
Speaker 1: going to say and his brilliant jokes about my body,
Speaker 1: and I in a way I thank him now, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm so evolved past that incident at this point. But like,
Speaker 1: but what it led to is me talking about it year,
Speaker 1: like a year later or something like on my podcast,
Speaker 1: and then that led me to realize, oh, it's like
Speaker 1: actually kind of a funny story. And then I got
Speaker 1: up and told it on a really big show. It
Speaker 1: was a show called fifty ft Jokes and you get
Speaker 1: up and you tell your first joke of the year
Speaker 1: in January, and you can't have told it anywhere else,
Speaker 1: I mean on stage. So I got up and I
Speaker 1: just just you have two minutes, and I told it
Speaker 1: really quick version of it. It's the first time I
Speaker 1: did on stage, and it was people were like screaming, laughing,
Speaker 1: and that's when I was like, oh, I'm onto something,
Speaker 1: you know, And it was me reclaiming something I was
Speaker 1: ashamed of. And the story is about me discovering it
Speaker 1: and not being naive and not knowing what was going on,
Speaker 1: and right, so yeah, I look at it fondly. I
Speaker 1: don't feel any shame over it. It's also really endearing
Speaker 1: because it is, like you said, it's like it's very
Speaker 1: self effacing. It's very like I mean, it's it's just
Speaker 1: the way that you present the information. Obviously, this is
Speaker 1: what makes comedy comedy. But it's like a mousey girl
Speaker 1: discovering she has a party trick, like like a like
Speaker 1: a sexual porn star party trick. Yeah. I think of
Speaker 1: it as like a very erotic, wild born thing or whatever,
Speaker 1: but you actually make it very charming in a way,
Speaker 1: like a very quaint almost thing that you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: like this is interesting, you know, like it's it's funny,
Speaker 1: like you telling this story is fascinating because I was like, well, look,
Speaker 1: I mean, like you've been doing comedy forever, you don't
Speaker 1: there's been this ongoing conversation about like what we can
Speaker 1: say and what we can't say, and you know, people
Speaker 1: are being silence, and actually I wanted to talk about that,
Speaker 1: and but then what you just said is kind of
Speaker 1: crazy because you basically were like I started doing this joke,
Speaker 1: which is really candid and really very real and obviously
Speaker 1: on a subject that is taboo or I don't know
Speaker 1: if we even say do we use the word taboo anymore?
Speaker 1: But it is like not a widely discussed subject. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at the time, I was the only person I knew
Speaker 1: that had ever told a joke about it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: and what year did you do that? What year did
Speaker 1: you do that for the first two ten eleven? Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like a while ago, over a decade ago,
Speaker 1: right right around the time that we met. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: now you're saying like, which is like a really fucking
Speaker 1: depressing thing that you're now obviously like, listen, everybody moves
Speaker 1: on from their their bits or whatever, but you're like,
Speaker 1: I stopped doing it because when I did it, dudes
Speaker 1: were absolute fucking creeps about it, and it like created
Speaker 1: a very uncomfortable situation, which like I feel like, you
Speaker 1: don't hear a lot of male comedians talking about you
Speaker 1: don't hear a lot of guy comedians be like, well
Speaker 1: I had to stop doing that, the bit about my dick,
Speaker 1: because women just couldn't stop harassing sucking my dick. After
Speaker 1: that just doesn't happen. Um, yeah, it's like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: so annoyed. So it was that there are parallels where
Speaker 1: like if you, I know, everybody has a joke that
Speaker 1: elicits reactions after the fact that are annoying for one
Speaker 1: reason or the other, and they might move on from
Speaker 1: it because of that. But like I also was just
Speaker 1: moving on material wise, like I put it on the
Speaker 1: album and at the same time, so the album came
Speaker 1: out like in probably twenty fourteen or fifteen, and at
Speaker 1: the same time, I booked a lot of colleges, and
Speaker 1: I was not doing that joke at colleges. Oh no,
Speaker 1: you weren't doing any of the colleges. Really, Well, here's
Speaker 1: my thing about colleges. It's not because they're sensitive. It's
Speaker 1: because they're virgins. They're too scared of your advanced sex material. Really,
Speaker 1: I would have thought totally the opposite. So college gigs
Speaker 1: are not what you think they are, at least they
Speaker 1: weren't when I first started doing them. College gigs are
Speaker 1: entertainment provided by the school, and that entertainment is there
Speaker 1: as an alternative to drinking. Oh, unless you're a really
Speaker 1: famous comedian that everybody wants to come see. But if
Speaker 1: you're just the random comedian getting booked, you know, for
Speaker 1: their entertainment series, you know, student activities board, like you know,
Speaker 1: whatever comedy night at the lounge, you know, that is
Speaker 1: an alter programming that the school offers as an alternative
Speaker 1: to getting drunk off your ass. And who comes to
Speaker 1: those things under age? Underclass, you know, lower class. Uh,
Speaker 1: not not lower class, but you know whatever. The term
Speaker 1: is first now, by the way, freshman, I learned this freshman,
Speaker 1: sophomore and all those are outdated terms. Now it's first year,
Speaker 1: second year, third year, fourth year. That's very British. That
Speaker 1: sounds like something from Harry Potter, right, canceled unfortunately, but
Speaker 1: that was inflicted by millennium. Okay, interesting, Wait why is freshman? Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean I can understand, I don't I think as man. Maybe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's other reasons. I'm sure it's roots are
Speaker 1: in like yeah, hazing, roots are probably racism, probably racism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like that was actually like a terrific m um. Yeah, sophomore. No,
Speaker 1: sophomore is actually a completely sexist and racist term. You
Speaker 1: didn't know that, Okay, So wait, so you so you're
Speaker 1: playing to younger people. So first year kids were the
Speaker 1: ones coming, and a lot of times you're doing like
Speaker 1: back to school you know stuff, and they these some
Speaker 1: of these kids are seventeen, Like they haven't even turned eighteen.
Speaker 1: Yet so right, and they're like people, right, I didn't Yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't go to college because I'm very stupid, but uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I had know nothing now as a result.
Speaker 1: But but my guess what you're saying is like, so
Speaker 1: it's young people, and also they're coming from all these
Speaker 1: different places. Right, So you're at a college somewhere, but
Speaker 1: you've got people from like, oh, yeah, the middle of
Speaker 1: nowhere who've just showed up in this like big new
Speaker 1: town or whatever. And then yeah, you're going for the
Speaker 1: you know, for the comedy night. Next thing, you know,
Speaker 1: you're you've scandalized them with your sexual acts, right, And
Speaker 1: I just know, even even like material about divorce, you know,
Speaker 1: they were kind of like, oh, really, like fifty one
Speaker 1: percent of marriages or whatever, it's too adult. It's too adult.
Speaker 1: Like it's not even that they're like, they're just like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is like old people jokes talk about something I understand, right,
Speaker 1: And so eventually, like, you know, I had other material
Speaker 1: that worked better, and I would like rearrange my ass
Speaker 1: acting stuff. And then I also was enjoying the challenge
Speaker 1: of coming up with material that would work in front
Speaker 1: of almost any crowd except for dumb dumbs, right. I
Speaker 1: always enjoy doing shows for a higher like emotional intelligence
Speaker 1: type crowd, or even just that they understand basic stuff
Speaker 1: in life and the world. Or I guess I guess
Speaker 1: the term is like more nerdy, you know, ignorant stupid
Speaker 1: audiences that's not your well say, generally they hate me
Speaker 1: because I'm too. I mean, I get comments all the time,
Speaker 1: like on on Facebook and stuff, because they'll run ads
Speaker 1: for my shows and I'll see the comments that people
Speaker 1: leave because it's just a random person seeing a video
Speaker 1: of me being like, hi, come to my show, and
Speaker 1: people will be like, oh, this is awful. She's annoying.
Speaker 1: She's obviously a Democrat, you know, and it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, like look, don't look at my show. They
Speaker 1: ad worked as intended. I do not want you at
Speaker 1: my show or near me. Ever your like that. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just leaving a negative comment in general is already
Speaker 1: a sign in my opinion, that like we don't need
Speaker 1: to be around each other. I think about that all that.
Speaker 1: I think about the comment thing all the time, which
Speaker 1: is like the effort it takes, Yeah, the effort it
Speaker 1: takes to stop and post a comment to me, I'm like,
Speaker 1: and I don't want I'm not trying to be like,
Speaker 1: oh you know, it's not from me or whatever. I
Speaker 1: just I just feel like the idea of that I
Speaker 1: would ever stop and spend time put in a publicly
Speaker 1: viewable like shit post underneath something else, like it's unless
Speaker 1: it's really extreme someone else's personal page. Like I've never
Speaker 1: done that, Like I have commented, I've critiqued things and
Speaker 1: culture and like been like chumps, you know, probably smells
Speaker 1: like a wet French fry, you know, like like I mean,
Speaker 1: those were the days remember red French fry, which, by
Speaker 1: the way, wet French fry fry smells fine actually like christs,
Speaker 1: just like a regular French fry. Am I think? Am
Speaker 1: I crazy? Yeah? Cold wet French fry. I don't know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll actually he does not smell like that, actually I know.
Speaker 1: But human human ski and shouldn't smell like that, you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. Okay, I mean, I guess that's
Speaker 1: up a good point. You need to get that looked at.
Speaker 1: But I've done negative comments like that online. You know
Speaker 1: where it's on my paint and you would have to
Speaker 1: read me to see it. Right, but I would never
Speaker 1: go onto someone else. And trust me, I've been tempted
Speaker 1: at times and like I want to just rip this
Speaker 1: person up, but I never done that. And I've never
Speaker 1: even put a thumbs down on like a YouTube video
Speaker 1: that just meals really, no thumbs down is weird, Like
Speaker 1: what's the point, what's the point, Like you're just pushing
Speaker 1: You're throwing negativity into the void. Like yeah, like you
Speaker 1: don't like it, Okay, then don't fucking watch it again,
Speaker 1: like stop watching it and leave. Yeah, yeah, just move on.
Speaker 1: I have like, okay, to your point. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: definitely like responded to like Elon Musk saying something stupid
Speaker 1: bite saying like like something probably trying to be somewhat
Speaker 1: inquisitive or constructive, not just a random like yeah, I've
Speaker 1: dunked on public figures before. But yeah, yeah that's a
Speaker 1: different story. That's a whole different deal. I mean, but like,
Speaker 1: but the idea that you're stuff, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess they think that they think that I'm a
Speaker 1: public figure and I deserve to be destroyed. And it's
Speaker 1: sort of like, okay, well you are an Emmy Award
Speaker 1: winning Emmy award winning comedian, writer, a podcaster. You ran
Speaker 1: the late night which we found tumbler account true or false?
Speaker 1: Did you actually put tumbler posts up for a late
Speaker 1: night show, probably the first and only late night show
Speaker 1: ever to post on top. It didn't last very long. No,
Speaker 1: there should be an award for because tumbler like went
Speaker 1: away very quickly after that. Yeah, Tumbler is the is
Speaker 1: Twitter of the past. Yeah, the future of Twitter. I
Speaker 1: hopefully Tumbler's past is Twitter's future, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: They said anyhow, But getting back to speaking your mind,
Speaker 1: being able to speak, you know, as a modern day philosopher,
Speaker 1: of course, we know comedians are the only people who
Speaker 1: can speak truth to power in this world, only us. Yeah. Now,
Speaker 1: obviously we're living in an age of extreme canceling. Stream
Speaker 1: is everywhere you turn, no matter what you say, no
Speaker 1: matter what you who you're saying it about, no matter
Speaker 1: how you say it. Yeah, someone will come out of
Speaker 1: the woodwork and get you canceled permanently off of the
Speaker 1: face of the planet. Do you feel that in this
Speaker 1: era of comedy that you're in in the world and
Speaker 1: sort of thinking about, you know, how you can speak,
Speaker 1: do you feel I mean, what's interesting. You just told
Speaker 1: a story where your actual speech was definitely fully suppressed
Speaker 1: by like the behavior of other people. It's not suppressed,
Speaker 1: but definitely like I've been influenced by others. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there is a constant drumbeat of this idea that it's
Speaker 1: your speech is just being limited and narrowed to a
Speaker 1: fine lib cut talking point. Do you feel that way
Speaker 1: as a as a as one of the last truth
Speaker 1: tellers out there, I'm the only comedian left. They're all debt.
Speaker 1: You're actually murdered for you're executed. They don't just cancel
Speaker 1: You're you're killed, You're turned into soiler. Yeah, they put
Speaker 1: in the chopper. So I have a show right now
Speaker 1: that I'm doing. It's a solo show, comedic solo show.
Speaker 1: It's called Going Up, and it's a fake seminar on
Speaker 1: how to make it in the comedy business. And I
Speaker 1: comment on that exact question heavily in the show. But
Speaker 1: to answer it straightforward, you know, because I've thought a
Speaker 1: lot about it, you better have a great answer that well,
Speaker 1: I've I've channeled a lot of my commentary on this
Speaker 1: into the show because I actually chose to allow people
Speaker 1: to silence me. Not the example I gave you, because
Speaker 1: I think that was more like my just not wanting
Speaker 1: to deal. No one was trying to silence me. They
Speaker 1: were actually trying to get me to talk more about it.
Speaker 1: They're actually like, but inadvertently silence here by being annoyed. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: they didn't mean to do that. That's not what that was.
Speaker 1: But I you know, a few years back, I was
Speaker 1: very I was for many years. I was very vocal
Speaker 1: on Twitter about women in comedy, about comedy stuff. And
Speaker 1: then the Louis c k stuff happened, and maybe what
Speaker 1: he waited what six months before making a comeback? Yeah,
Speaker 1: a few episodes ago talking to Nick Turner Media Love,
Speaker 1: and we were talking about that he sells out Masis
Speaker 1: and Square Garden. Oh he's fine, Like nobody's bating this,
Speaker 1: like nothing happened, right, Well, he's been canceled permanently and
Speaker 1: can no longer get work except for selling that Madison
Speaker 1: Square Garden. That's it, right, Well, they always go He
Speaker 1: lost thirty million dollars, He lost thirty million in potential income.
Speaker 1: And like, if you don't understand how TV contracts work
Speaker 1: and development deals work, then you don't realize he didn't.
Speaker 1: He didn't have thirty million dollars deleted from his bank account.
Speaker 1: That's that how it happened, you know. Yeah, but we
Speaker 1: you know, we had deleted from our from the bank
Speaker 1: account of culture is another season of Louis right, right,
Speaker 1: exactly when you think about it, there was right, there
Speaker 1: wasn't might be lost. But hello, if you are working
Speaker 1: in TV or movies, but especially in TV, canceling can
Speaker 1: happen for any reason, as stupid as a network president going,
Speaker 1: I don't like it anymore, thank you know, like right,
Speaker 1: like right. In fact, every single person in TV gets
Speaker 1: their show canceled at some point, and the reasons never
Speaker 1: make sense. So why are we being so sensitive when
Speaker 1: it's like, maybe they don't like you any gay, Maybe
Speaker 1: you kind of freaked them out and they don't want
Speaker 1: to work. People were just looking for an excuse. Maybe
Speaker 1: they're like, this is it we can finally get rid
Speaker 1: of No, but I'm just saying, but I'm saying, you
Speaker 1: can be your stuff, your career, your TV career can
Speaker 1: be canceled. It's that's like where the term came from
Speaker 1: in terms of like, oh a show gets canceled. That's
Speaker 1: oginate is literally and then and then canceled culture became
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it came from like black culture, or
Speaker 1: I think black Twitter might have originated all the best
Speaker 1: I start as I know, all the best, most interesting
Speaker 1: things happening in culture come from black Twitter and black culture. Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course there was the cancel culture is a term
Speaker 1: that was appropriated. Yeah. No. The thing I think I
Speaker 1: think all the time about what like white supremiss is
Speaker 1: like the world that they imagine would be so boring
Speaker 1: and so devoid of anything like fun or interesting happening,
Speaker 1: like the white pro like white people just produce so
Speaker 1: little that is good and interesting at this point, and
Speaker 1: I lay massas as a white person with the podcast,
Speaker 1: so you know, I think, you know, I'm in a
Speaker 1: unique vantage point it. Oh yeah, so I was pretty
Speaker 1: vocal about stuff. I was talking about that whole thing,
Speaker 1: like why are we crying for Luis? Why are we
Speaker 1: acting like Hollywood was fair up until this point, right, Welcome,
Speaker 1: welcome to it being unfair, Welcome to it making sense
Speaker 1: to you, Welcome to it being fickle. Yeah, well, you know,
Speaker 1: like welcome to it being well. And then there's good, right,
Speaker 1: like pretty good reasons you know, like, right, it's not
Speaker 1: just like somebody didn't like his act, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like he had real problem, right and so, and it's
Speaker 1: a lie ability and he was doing shit on set
Speaker 1: and that's why people, Oh, I didn't do anything. It's
Speaker 1: like you didn't read the same articles that I did.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, so, anyway, I'm not going to rehash it.
Speaker 1: I literally can't. I'll no, no, no no, no. But it's
Speaker 1: so fascinated to talk about, though, I get it, Like
Speaker 1: this is really the second time in recent podcast history
Speaker 1: for me that I've this has come up, and I
Speaker 1: do think it's endlessly fascinating just because I think this
Speaker 1: topic of cancel culture, you know, this idea of cancelation
Speaker 1: seems so pervasive, and yet if you look at people
Speaker 1: who've been canceled because of their speech or whatever, which
Speaker 1: is not the case in his case, and really in
Speaker 1: any of these, people always act like the Louis c
Speaker 1: Kay thing is a freedom of speech issue, right, And
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, actually, it was like a workplace safety
Speaker 1: issue and like a human issue, and some of it
Speaker 1: was borderline criminal depending on the state you're in. And like,
Speaker 1: you know, so anyway, I was vocal about that stuff,
Speaker 1: and I was really pissed off and annoyed when he
Speaker 1: came back so quickly, and like there were articles going
Speaker 1: around about bookers saying they would book him and their
Speaker 1: stage is open to anyone and all this stuff, and
Speaker 1: it was digging into all those things we were just
Speaker 1: touching on, and I was tweeting about that shit, and
Speaker 1: I got kind of in the crosshairs of like the
Speaker 1: worst people, which is comedy like bro comedy fans, comedy defenders. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I call them shit head island, and like male comedy
Speaker 1: fans of that ilk are so toxic and they well
Speaker 1: male male fans. Can I just say, like in my
Speaker 1: experience and this is not just say that this is
Speaker 1: not unique because I think what your saying it is.
Speaker 1: But and I'm sorry, I just totally cut you off
Speaker 1: like a huge dickhead, like shut up a second and
Speaker 1: let me make a point. But like male fans of
Speaker 1: anything are bad in my can get very and their
Speaker 1: they take on different flavors or whatever, but this fandom
Speaker 1: is pretty toxic and they really hate, uh, female comedians
Speaker 1: who talk about this stuff. And they I've seen how
Speaker 1: they've after many of us and me included, and that
Speaker 1: at that time, it also bubbled up to fellow comics
Speaker 1: fighting with me and being mean to me and like
Speaker 1: kind of sticking their fans on me, and it really
Speaker 1: it hit me at a vulnerable time in my life.
Speaker 1: It really affected me, and I saw and was told
Speaker 1: things that were just so cruel and some of it
Speaker 1: was scary, and it was just like I had people
Speaker 1: in my life being like, you need to stop with that,
Speaker 1: and not that they were blaming me, but I made
Speaker 1: a promise to myself and to my husband, like because
Speaker 1: it would just take me out, you know, and I
Speaker 1: would just be spiraling and like freaking out, and it
Speaker 1: just triggered so much anxiety and me and I mean
Speaker 1: having like physical symptoms and stuff. And ye like when
Speaker 1: I see someone getting harassed online, even if they were
Speaker 1: really horrible for what they said, then they come back
Speaker 1: with the I'm getting death threats and this is ruined,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's like, I know what that feels like.
Speaker 1: It is not okay there, you know, Yeah, no, it's
Speaker 1: very abnormal. I have had a couple of not to
Speaker 1: the yeah yeah, and we never talked to like certainly
Speaker 1: a woman who's online. I know that my experience could
Speaker 1: never possibly begin to approach. No, you're human being and like,
Speaker 1: you know people, but but yeah, so I got attacked
Speaker 1: and I what I said was so mild. I didn't
Speaker 1: even say anything that inflammatory. I just said it's boring
Speaker 1: to book Louis k right, And I was just kind
Speaker 1: of and I had a little thread and I was like,
Speaker 1: get over yourselves, like like you know, and I just
Speaker 1: was sort of like blah, like this is so boring.
Speaker 1: Please You're not edgy or special, and like you're not
Speaker 1: cool for this, and I mean, you go after whether
Speaker 1: or not someone's cool. They don't like that. So I
Speaker 1: got I got that kind of attacked and um, and
Speaker 1: I made a promise to stop tweeting about comedy debates,
Speaker 1: you know, when Chappelle was say something or like just
Speaker 1: having opinions on my own business. And I just tried
Speaker 1: it for a while. I gave it a try, and
Speaker 1: it was incredible how they successfully did silence me and
Speaker 1: it actually worked. You know, like when a big group
Speaker 1: of people are telling you to go kill yourself or
Speaker 1: like quit or stop, they're guessing at what would hit you.
Speaker 1: And it is funny how when I stopped commenting on
Speaker 1: the thing that I know the most about my own business,
Speaker 1: my own career, my own experiences as a woman in comedy.
Speaker 1: The harassment stopped right and then the few times I've
Speaker 1: just tiptoed back in, it starts again, and it's like, wow,
Speaker 1: they know that. I think that, whether conscious or not,
Speaker 1: they're they're trying to get you to shut the fuck
Speaker 1: up about it. I chose that I have friends who
Speaker 1: are like you will never silence me. Fuck you, I'm
Speaker 1: going to go even harder. They can handle it. I
Speaker 1: cannot handle a certain level once it gets past a
Speaker 1: certain level of harassment, Like I can't. It's not good
Speaker 1: for me. So I chose to stop. So is my
Speaker 1: freedom of speech being curtailed? Technically no, but it's like
Speaker 1: a platform is being abused to bully people into silence
Speaker 1: and like make it say they're faced with this kind
Speaker 1: of choice if they aren't made of steel, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, first off, like, what's so interesting just hearing
Speaker 1: your perspective on this is that it is such a
Speaker 1: common And I don't mean I'm not saying, wow, this
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, but I'm saying what you're describing is such
Speaker 1: a common thread of online interaction and having been in
Speaker 1: some moments not too dissimilar from what you're describing, where
Speaker 1: you've got like a mob of people, like it is
Speaker 1: a mob. And I think you're largely talking about Twitter.
Speaker 1: I don't know other platforms. There happened on other platforms,
Speaker 1: but Twitter is like, for me, was the most toxic place. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's design and to this day, it's design is fashioned
Speaker 1: in such a way that quote tweet, it has given
Speaker 1: a mob all of the tools it needs now in
Speaker 1: the same way that you can say anything you want
Speaker 1: and gets broadcast out to the world that can be
Speaker 1: immediately turned around and and there can be like an
Speaker 1: inverse of the world broadcasting back at you. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that, like you know, it's like one
Speaker 1: too many and then many to one. It's like a way,
Speaker 1: it's like the streets that it functions on, right, the
Speaker 1: pathways that it functions on. And it is such a
Speaker 1: it is such a cruel, weird, negative form of interaction,
Speaker 1: like with no there's no buffer, there's no barrier, there's
Speaker 1: no time out, there's no there's no way to stem
Speaker 1: the tide. If a thousand people decide at this moment
Speaker 1: that you're going to be the target or one hundred
Speaker 1: thousand people the target of their ire Nothing can stop
Speaker 1: that except you turning, you know, deleting the app and
Speaker 1: not looking at it. And I think that like, as
Speaker 1: human beings, I mean, in a way, it's unnatural for
Speaker 1: us to share in real time anything that we think
Speaker 1: unless we're talking. If like, like you and I are
Speaker 1: having a real time conversation, we're not in the same room,
Speaker 1: would be preferable if we were, I think, just generally
Speaker 1: in life, but like this is a normal interaction, you
Speaker 1: and I exchanging ideas in real time, but like to
Speaker 1: have a real time idea out there and then get
Speaker 1: this like immediate torrent of unchecked feedback or vitriol or
Speaker 1: whatever is a totally unnatural an unhealthy way in which
Speaker 1: we interact or that we've developed an interaction on the internet.
Speaker 1: And I do think, like not to go back to
Speaker 1: elon Mosk or whatever, but I do think this, what
Speaker 1: is happening now on that particular platform is probably like
Speaker 1: we're seeing the kind of twilight of one both like
Speaker 1: the people who want that the kind of people who
Speaker 1: want to have that interaction, also just that platform's ability
Speaker 1: or almost any platform's ability to like amplify in the
Speaker 1: same exact way. Like I think like people are kind
Speaker 1: of moving on from that, but yeah, but it is
Speaker 1: like we have, like over the last like almost two decades,
Speaker 1: created a bunch of avenues of communication that at first
Speaker 1: seemed brilliant and useful and fun when we met. Twitter
Speaker 1: was not the same thing. It was like when Jimmy
Speaker 1: was doing funny bits with Twitter, it was like it
Speaker 1: was just felt like a small community. And in the
Speaker 1: second it gets like as big as it as it
Speaker 1: has gotten, it becomes you know, untenable, and I think, like, well,
Speaker 1: and then the usage of it was different and it
Speaker 1: was structured different. I think people are realizing like how
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's not just Twitter, but like how
Speaker 1: helpless you are to a tech company. Changing just simple
Speaker 1: things about the structure or the way the platform works
Speaker 1: can really have a negative effect on you or what
Speaker 1: you use the platform for. Like even since Elon took over,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like every day as a new adventure,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, what's this. You know, it used to
Speaker 1: be Twitter was where you would go for like real
Speaker 1: time events, when things would happen, you'd be catching up
Speaker 1: on it. But now they've restructured it so that you
Speaker 1: go on and you're just seeing a mishmash of random
Speaker 1: tweets from all different time periods, and it's not really
Speaker 1: a feed, a real time feed anymore. And the trend
Speaker 1: you're trending topics are so tailored and so algorithmized to
Speaker 1: you that you don't even realize, like I'll miss major
Speaker 1: news events because like I was relying on Twitter for
Speaker 1: so long for news and now I'm like, oh, I
Speaker 1: can't check Twitter for news right now, they've changed it.
Speaker 1: But also like as a creator, as somebody who's trying
Speaker 1: to sell tickets to a tour, my Twitter presence, Instagram presence,
Speaker 1: all of that stuff has a direct impact on my
Speaker 1: ability to pay my rent, Like there is a pipeline there,
Speaker 1: rent pipeline. Yeah, And you know I was told three
Speaker 1: months ago, like you gotta do reels, reels on Instagram,
Speaker 1: that's what they're prioritizing. And then I happened to see
Speaker 1: a Twitter thread from someone I don't even follow, who
Speaker 1: like works in marketing saying they've received the message that
Speaker 1: now meta is going on Facebook, Instagram now they're deprioritizing reels.
Speaker 1: This is like within months and now they're prioritizing carousels.
Speaker 1: Oh are they? That's good because I've got a lot
Speaker 1: of pictures. All right, Well, I mean and you know
Speaker 1: your engagement if you do anything that links to a
Speaker 1: ticket link, it's like they know, and they're like, you're
Speaker 1: gonna get one like on this. But then if you
Speaker 1: tweet out like poo poo peepee one million life Like
Speaker 1: That's why I've shifted my whole Twitter strategy to just
Speaker 1: that kind of yeah baby, like a fecal matter baby talk.
Speaker 1: But that's it's just like I can't keep up, and
Speaker 1: it's like, well, you have so little control over that.
Speaker 1: So if you aren't super famous where you're just a
Speaker 1: man ending an audience all the time because of that, right,
Speaker 1: it's really frustrating. And you know, I'll like tweet out
Speaker 1: every time I do a show in a city, you know,
Speaker 1: three weeks later, someone's like, come to San Francisco and
Speaker 1: I'm like I was just there and you follow me
Speaker 1: and you didn't even know about it. And it's so frustrating.
Speaker 1: The algorithms like we're not we don't want to share
Speaker 1: that borde like you need to you know, get your
Speaker 1: ass out or whatever. That's what now, that's what the
Speaker 1: people want. But it is to your point about you
Speaker 1: being kind of silenced by the mob, Like it has
Speaker 1: become less enticing to be real on any social media platform.
Speaker 1: They want like a version of you that fits in
Speaker 1: with like an algorithm that isn't too controversial, but it's
Speaker 1: like controversial or interesting in the right ways for the algorithm.
Speaker 1: Inflammatory stuff right right, Inflammatory stuff gets right, gets attention,
Speaker 1: and so it's encouraging you to be inflammatory. So it's
Speaker 1: encouraging you to get into fights with people and they're
Speaker 1: it's like the engine of outrage. Yes, do you ever
Speaker 1: go like I should just become like a fucking like Republican,
Speaker 1: like a phony Republican, like Maga, like Joe Rogan, you know,
Speaker 1: doing my own research whatever, Because like I think about
Speaker 1: this all the time. It's like when I used to
Speaker 1: make music for a living before I did whatever the
Speaker 1: fuck it is I do, before I was a journalist
Speaker 1: a podcast. But like, but I remember thinking like I
Speaker 1: would always try to challenge myself. It was actually when
Speaker 1: you were talking about the structure of doing the comedy
Speaker 1: on college campuses to that audience, I reminded me of
Speaker 1: thinking about how I used to make music when I
Speaker 1: would like try to use like a certain instrument in
Speaker 1: a certain way, but only like limit it to a
Speaker 1: certain type of use, or only use this set of
Speaker 1: things to make a song or whatever, and it would
Speaker 1: be like an interesting challenge to work around it. But
Speaker 1: like I would also work really hard to do things
Speaker 1: that I felt were like challenging to me intellectually or musically.
Speaker 1: I'd be like, let me like make this weirder or
Speaker 1: better or to me, not just like for the sake
Speaker 1: that I think somebody else would like it. But then
Speaker 1: I always admire, not admired, but kind of felt jealous
Speaker 1: of people who, like when you heard their records, you'd
Speaker 1: be like, it really feels like they just did the
Speaker 1: most obvious expected thing, And the effect is I think
Speaker 1: it's dumb, but they're a lot of people like it,
Speaker 1: and it's like it feels below beneath me to have
Speaker 1: done something like that, and yet they must be having
Speaker 1: such a blast just fucking doing the thing that is
Speaker 1: popular or whatever. Yeah, I mean that's a big thing
Speaker 1: in comedy. I mean, you've got a lot of comedians
Speaker 1: who are very famous and very rich for doing jokes
Speaker 1: that are just really really basic or hacky. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's right, it's infuriating. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: it's like, well that that's like what all of this
Speaker 1: stuff is pushing people towards, is like is like finding
Speaker 1: that you know, I guess whatever. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: just kind of figuring out like what is going to
Speaker 1: be the thing that hits them the masses. But like
Speaker 1: you can't be like being being unique on the platforms
Speaker 1: is no longer desirable because like there's either too much
Speaker 1: like either too much hate or the algorithm doesn't like it,
Speaker 1: or it's not in the right format. And I mean
Speaker 1: I'm not like bitching about this like it as an
Speaker 1: old person. I don't think you are either. I think
Speaker 1: what we're actually talking about is like this weird shift
Speaker 1: in culture that has made what seemed to be like
Speaker 1: the dawning of a great new way to authentically communicate
Speaker 1: with people has in in some ways almost homogenizing back
Speaker 1: into like oh yeah, nineteen eighties sitcoms, like like not
Speaker 1: that it's the same thing, but that type of like
Speaker 1: cookie cutter. There's a cookie cutter way to do it,
Speaker 1: and people don't really want the other thing. No, And
Speaker 1: if you're too ahead of the curve, which this is
Speaker 1: like I've always i feel like I'm losing it as
Speaker 1: I get older, but like I've always pride of myself
Speaker 1: of being like kind of on the on the cutting
Speaker 1: edge or the on the finger on the pulse of
Speaker 1: like what's cool. I may not be embodying it, but
Speaker 1: I'm aware of it, right, I'm like interested always in
Speaker 1: what people think is cool, even if I don't understand
Speaker 1: it or I'm like I never do in that. I'm
Speaker 1: never going to be that you know, um, but I'm
Speaker 1: always interested in and I like to experience and read
Speaker 1: about stuff like that. And in that way, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: good at predicting, like or because I'm a comedian, I'll
Speaker 1: do satire. I love satire and commenting on cultural stuff.
Speaker 1: And so sometimes I'm commenting on stuff before it's really
Speaker 1: hit mainstream, right, and I'm satirizing something that isn't there yet,
Speaker 1: and then like a year later, someone else will go,
Speaker 1: you know, get famous from doing the thing that I
Speaker 1: This is a perfect example, right, I was. I had
Speaker 1: a joke and this is now ten years ago probably
Speaker 1: I started doing the joke about um those a little
Speaker 1: less than ten years ago, maybe like eight or nine
Speaker 1: years ago, I started doing jokes about those inspirational quotes
Speaker 1: on like pieces of driftwood, like live, Laugh, Love and
Speaker 1: like all that stuff, and I was like the first
Speaker 1: comedian that I know of that, and it's on my
Speaker 1: half hour special on Comedy Central and really proud of
Speaker 1: that material. And I thought I was really kind of
Speaker 1: hit it and hit a moment. But I think I
Speaker 1: was just a little too early, because now you go
Speaker 1: on TikTok, right, and it's like all these trends on
Speaker 1: TikTok making fun of those signs, and I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: the original, you know. Also it is in a way
Speaker 1: like there is always this thing too of like doing
Speaker 1: it early, but also doing it in a way where
Speaker 1: you're like it's like a tiny bit too cerebral or
Speaker 1: a little bit too yeah yeah, right, like and like
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, if I had just bashed this thing
Speaker 1: over the head, if I had just done this thing
Speaker 1: that was like stupidly obvious but didn't seem That's what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like, doesn't seem satisfying to you or fun
Speaker 1: to you or interesting like that. It's like that little tweak.
Speaker 1: It's when it gets watered down to that kind of
Speaker 1: like blander essence that somehow it becomes like much more palatable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe we're just talking about what is broadly considered cool
Speaker 1: as often not very cool. But I do think it's
Speaker 1: like social media and just generally like how the platforms
Speaker 1: interact with our content and what you put out into
Speaker 1: the world has been it does feel like increasingly boxed in,
Speaker 1: like I think, and for me my career has been
Speaker 1: a lot of like we're telling a story of some
Speaker 1: type or we're trying to like you know, communicate in
Speaker 1: this different way to people. The platforms have only ever
Speaker 1: been like a way for the originality to be stripped
Speaker 1: out of it and for it to be replaced with
Speaker 1: something that's much more like packageable and sellable on a
Speaker 1: broad scale, but never about actually serving like the needs
Speaker 1: of like an individual creator. That's why, like there are
Speaker 1: people who have a million followers on TikTok that is
Speaker 1: not a living for them. You could make the funniest
Speaker 1: videos in the world of the most interesting videos, and
Speaker 1: I see people on TikTok all the time and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: you're like kind of a genius level creator at doing
Speaker 1: this thing. Yeah, and it's so unique and so interesting.
Speaker 1: But like that, there is not even if you have
Speaker 1: a ton of people watching your videos, or even if
Speaker 1: you have a few videos that go viral, to sustain
Speaker 1: that and make it a thing. That is a small,
Speaker 1: very small portion of these people. It's especially on TikTok,
Speaker 1: I mean, because it's there's also pressure on TikTok. I've
Speaker 1: noticed people who have gone viral for stuff, especially like
Speaker 1: funny people, they have to repeat that and they have
Speaker 1: to keep doing the same thing, right, and then they're
Speaker 1: stuck in that, and I think that that, yeah, that
Speaker 1: is limiting. But also I've seen people be like like
Speaker 1: I came across one guy who was making funny videos
Speaker 1: but the same type of thing over and over, and
Speaker 1: then he was he did a video about how his
Speaker 1: views had just dropped, they had just fallen off a
Speaker 1: cliff at some point, and that he didn't know why
Speaker 1: he still had the same amount of followers, and it
Speaker 1: was like clearly a change in the algorithm. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: they are sharing a tiny amount of money with people.
Speaker 1: It's like if you were just scraping by making like
Speaker 1: a little bit on your TikTok millions of followers, which
Speaker 1: by the way, it has to be that high to
Speaker 1: make anything. You know, that's beyond czy. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's like so it's not sustainable, That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: You know, YouTube has become sustainable for a select few
Speaker 1: or um, and they have an ad system they you know,
Speaker 1: it's a more robust thing. But TikTok is very narrow physically,
Speaker 1: it's just a narrow little yeah, you know. But also
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, YouTube has become more like television
Speaker 1: in a way. I mean, right, it's people with like
Speaker 1: entire empires built off of like you know, reviewing video
Speaker 1: games and or you know, like there's one lady I've
Speaker 1: follow that is makes miniatures. You know, really i'd be interested,
Speaker 1: you know, and she you can see that she has
Speaker 1: like a little business going and she does. Okay, she's
Speaker 1: not a millionaire or anything. So yeah, I mean right, no,
Speaker 1: there are there are versions of it that are sustainable.
Speaker 1: That YouTube is is like closer to almost a traditional
Speaker 1: now like traditional television than than But I mean I
Speaker 1: think it's just um, you know, going back to the
Speaker 1: you know, you being early on the jokes. I think
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where that thing of getting
Speaker 1: stuck in it, of getting stuck doing the same bit
Speaker 1: or doing the same joke. Like I do think this
Speaker 1: is true in music too. I think about this all
Speaker 1: the time. It was like I had, you know, a
Speaker 1: record that was sort of successful, and then people wanted
Speaker 1: the next one to be just like that one, but
Speaker 1: like a little bit different. And I didn't want to
Speaker 1: do that because you know when you do something and
Speaker 1: you're creative and you're like I got that out of
Speaker 1: my system and then you're like, Okay, how can I
Speaker 1: tap that or change that or work on something that
Speaker 1: goes beyond it. I'm sure I would imagine do this
Speaker 1: with your writing and your comedy. And it's like for
Speaker 1: a certain type of person that's exciting and they want that.
Speaker 1: It's a much smaller percentage of an overall audience that
Speaker 1: wants the new and the different and the challenging, and
Speaker 1: then there's a larger or much larger audience. And I
Speaker 1: guess this is just life, right. You don't know how
Speaker 1: many Beatles are there, right, Like the Beatles have this
Speaker 1: weird thing where they're like the most fascinating band of
Speaker 1: all and maybe you hate the Beatles, but like they
Speaker 1: made some of the weirdest music of all time, and
Speaker 1: they also happen to be one of the most popular
Speaker 1: things of all time. And like there are only a
Speaker 1: few instances where that is the case, because usually it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: if you make bland shit, like a lot of people
Speaker 1: are really gonna like that. And and I don't think
Speaker 1: the algorithms have they've created a larger the platforms have
Speaker 1: created a larger space for different people to participate in
Speaker 1: a creative process, but they haven't figured out a way
Speaker 1: for those people to really make something of it beyond
Speaker 1: like a momentary. It's like yeah, Spike, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's it's depressing, right, And it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's changed a lot even since I started comedy, but
Speaker 1: like there used to be just like a pipeline if
Speaker 1: you've got to do a spot on a late night
Speaker 1: show and then that's what that's puts you into the thing.
Speaker 1: But there was also a time period where just being
Speaker 1: booked on a club you were going to sell out
Speaker 1: the club because people went to comedy clubs. And now
Speaker 1: people don't really go to comedy clubs unless they know
Speaker 1: of the person. I don't think it's it's just not
Speaker 1: the same. Like you you have to be famous for something,
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be for comedy. Like I saw
Speaker 1: this person on TikTok and now well, or like this
Speaker 1: person is a was a UFC fighter and so now
Speaker 1: I will be or like they were their podcast, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but like there's a few UFC adjacent
Speaker 1: you know, there's a story about Tom Brady wanted to
Speaker 1: do com Tom Brady's doing comedy. There was a rumor
Speaker 1: going around that he was gonna do comedy, but then
Speaker 1: they announced he's getting roasted. Oh he's They're doing a
Speaker 1: Comedy Central roast, I believe, or I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's Comedy Central, but that's when people do comedy about you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was all kind of at the same time. It's unclear,
Speaker 1: but people, you know, were dunking on and there's been
Speaker 1: athletes that have you know, we tried to do stand
Speaker 1: up and musicians and people try to cross over. It's fine,
Speaker 1: but really oh yeah, John Mayer, Oh John Mayer has
Speaker 1: done standing Yeah it didn't go out. Oh really yeah. See,
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like my time is coming.
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be I can finally break into
Speaker 1: the lucrative world of comedy. Yeah, yeah, will come to
Speaker 1: my come to my show. It's where you learn, Okay,
Speaker 1: I will, you'll learn how to do it. I teach
Speaker 1: you how to one and show. Yeah, it's called going up. Okay.
Speaker 1: This is a perfect segue too, wrapping up, because I
Speaker 1: just realized we've been talking for a while, like you
Speaker 1: probably have like life things to do. I just want
Speaker 1: to kind of put a little bit of a period
Speaker 1: on this sentence, if you will. Yeah, So what does
Speaker 1: the future hold for a philosopher and truth teller like yourself?
Speaker 1: Are the cancelations so broad and the silencings so massive
Speaker 1: that like there's no more space for this thing in
Speaker 1: our culture anymore? Or is there still a way to
Speaker 1: make that work? Yeah, there's there's plenty of comedians, there's
Speaker 1: not less. There's plenty of stages for us to perform
Speaker 1: on and ways to reach an audience. And no one
Speaker 1: is making that illegal or taking that away from you
Speaker 1: in that way, I think, because that's what we're being
Speaker 1: told that there's no Yeah, right, comedy is not dead.
Speaker 1: You know, people do have a sense of humor, obviously
Speaker 1: they do. Comedy is the driving force of TikTok. It
Speaker 1: was the original driving force of Twitter. Yeah, stand up
Speaker 1: comedy is interesting because it isn't that old of an
Speaker 1: art form, and it evolves over time and it's very
Speaker 1: in the moment is you know, it doesn't hold up
Speaker 1: the way that other forms of art do, like meaning
Speaker 1: like Lenny Bruce jokes are really weird to read about
Speaker 1: now you know, it's like, oh that doesn't sound fine,
Speaker 1: you know, but it was like so edgy at that time.
Speaker 1: I don't even know what Lenny Bruce material would sound like.
Speaker 1: I guess I don't. I'm not, as you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not a student of comedy. There's a little bit of
Speaker 1: audio of him, um you can look up. But anyway,
Speaker 1: stand up is going to be fine. I just think
Speaker 1: that people now we've been through so much and people
Speaker 1: are more sensitive in terms of like and and this
Speaker 1: is across the board. This is not one political leaning
Speaker 1: over another where you just don't have patience to hear
Speaker 1: comedy and jokes from someone that is joking about something
Speaker 1: that you take very seriously politically or just personally. Like
Speaker 1: I think that people would probably enjoy the majority of
Speaker 1: my material, but because they might be a hardcore Trump supporter,
Speaker 1: and they know that I'm not, they are going to
Speaker 1: be able to enjoy it. They just can't hear it. Right.
Speaker 1: My solo show is very it's specific, and it's it's
Speaker 1: a more theatrical thing. It's like for a more I
Speaker 1: think sophisticated in pr style audience or nerd comedy nerd audience. Like,
Speaker 1: it's not really broad broad regular stand up about food
Speaker 1: and relationships. It's not that well my regular my regular
Speaker 1: stand up these days is very palatable and it's for anybody.
Speaker 1: But there are certain people who if they get winned
Speaker 1: before the show or during the show that I'm a
Speaker 1: feminist or that I'm I think you're a democrat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they fucking folded arms, pissed off. It's usually men, but
Speaker 1: women do it too, right, um, and and they freak
Speaker 1: out and it's like you can't even hear it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There are comedians who I'm like, I know that of
Speaker 1: something that they've said in the past that really pissed
Speaker 1: me off, and I think that was damaging and so
Speaker 1: I just will never want to hear them talk ever again.
Speaker 1: I understand it, right, Well, I think I think for
Speaker 1: those people, for anybody who thinks they can't enjoy your comedy.
Speaker 1: For anybody who who who thinks that maybe because you're
Speaker 1: differing political viewpoints that they can't listen to you and
Speaker 1: and and watch you and take something away from it.
Speaker 1: I encourage them to put on the Splash Rountain bit
Speaker 1: from your first album and just take a just take
Speaker 1: a listen to that. And if you if you don't
Speaker 1: find yourself, and then I'm a female comic, and all
Speaker 1: female comics do is talk about you. You don't find yourself?
Speaker 1: Define loudly. Yeah, no matter what where you are on
Speaker 1: the political spectrum, no matter where you what politician you support.
Speaker 1: Um okay. So to wrap up, you have a you're
Speaker 1: not referring to it as a one woman show? Is
Speaker 1: that an updated I don't want to. I just don't
Speaker 1: say that because I people think that that it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's about your divorce and your trauma, mauma. It's about
Speaker 1: it's about my trauma. But it's not. Okay, it's a yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like a fun trauma in um capitalism and the
Speaker 1: comedy business. Um right. But and what is that called?
Speaker 1: It's called going up, going up? And where can one
Speaker 1: see or experience going up? If you live in Arizona.
Speaker 1: I'm doing the show in Tucson on Thursday. Phoenix Friday,
Speaker 1: dry heat. There a lot of dry heat, and Tucson
Speaker 1: it's moist. It's moist there right now, but it's raining
Speaker 1: and snowing and and I'm doing it in Flagstaff on Saturday.
Speaker 1: That is my solo show. I'm doing it, and all
Speaker 1: this is on my social media. You can find it.
Speaker 1: Just google my name, you'll find all these things. But
Speaker 1: I'm also doing the Melbourne Comedy Festival in Australia for
Speaker 1: almost a whole month of April. Oh my god, you're
Speaker 1: going to Australia's exciting. Yeah. And then I'm doing the
Speaker 1: show there, and I'm doing it in LA when I
Speaker 1: get back, New York, Texas, Vermont, Indiana. I'm doing it
Speaker 1: all over the place, And I would love for you
Speaker 1: to come to the show because I'm so proud of it,
Speaker 1: and it involves miniatures and music like it's one of
Speaker 1: the most creative things I've ever done. And if you
Speaker 1: just are interested in comedy at all or creative people,
Speaker 1: you don't have to know anything about comedy because I'm
Speaker 1: teaching during it. That's the whole premise. So what do
Speaker 1: you leave you actually are a comedian, so the audience members, well,
Speaker 1: that's the joke. I'm like in the beginning, I'm the beginning.
Speaker 1: I tell everyone that they've signed up for a seminar.
Speaker 1: I bring them into a ruse that they've paid two
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to take the seminar, even though the tickets
Speaker 1: are very cheap. Oh, I love this. This works on
Speaker 1: so many levels for me. When when you do. First off,
Speaker 1: if I don't if I can't come and see it
Speaker 1: in LA or something I would love, when you're in
Speaker 1: New York, you have to give me a heads up
Speaker 1: so I can come and see it. You know that
Speaker 1: sounds super super interesting. And also it would, like I said,
Speaker 1: appeal to my um my sick, latent desire to become
Speaker 1: I'm telling you it will make later I either really
Speaker 1: want to. I've I've had young comics who've come to
Speaker 1: the show and been like I actually learned a lot
Speaker 1: and that was very helpful. And then other people who
Speaker 1: are like I'm and it's usually the older comics are like,
Speaker 1: you just drew a chalk line around my dead body,
Speaker 1: Like I feel, I can't stop thinking about it. I'm
Speaker 1: so depressed, but also cathartic like release, you know, like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. So now I really want to check
Speaker 1: it out because it is so Yeah, it's so germane
Speaker 1: to the conversation we're having here about like about this
Speaker 1: whole start. I was like, yes, this is right up
Speaker 1: my alley right now. You know, I don't I don't
Speaker 1: talk about comedy stuff on Twitter anymore, and I put
Speaker 1: it all in my show. Yeah, see, I want to
Speaker 1: I want to check that out, Sarah. I have to say,
Speaker 1: this has been such a fun and an interesting conversation
Speaker 1: and like we should talk more. Yeah, and like I
Speaker 1: don't know how many years has been since the last one,
Speaker 1: but just like I feel like every every time we talk,
Speaker 1: and frankly like from the moment I met you, like
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm learning something new every time we chat.
Speaker 1: And this has been such a cool experience. So you
Speaker 1: have to come back maybe after you have done like
Speaker 1: a run of these shows, and then we can find out, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what's going on seeing it? Then we do it.
Speaker 1: After I see it, I could I could do a
Speaker 1: real time review of Ye, Sarah, I was disappointed. I
Speaker 1: walked out of the theater somewhat upset about the whole thing. Anyhow,
Speaker 1: this is great. Thank you so much, and and do
Speaker 1: come back as soon as possible. Thank you. I will well.
Speaker 1: I have to be honest with you. That conversation gave
Speaker 1: me a lot of food for thought. It left me
Speaker 1: really questioning everything you know about my comedy career. It
Speaker 1: made me really think this is this right for me?
Speaker 1: Is it should I continue on with my comedy career
Speaker 1: or is it time to hang up the old fedora
Speaker 1: and overcoat which is part of my aufit I wear
Speaker 1: when I do when I do my routine, my type five.
Speaker 1: It's funny that you say that, because that's that's a
Speaker 1: joke in her solo show. What I won't say where
Speaker 1: it happens or what it is it show? Are you serious?
Speaker 1: That's weird because like I have no knowledge of her
Speaker 1: comedy special whatsoever. It's so good. I feel like Sarah
Speaker 1: and I are just very connected. You know. That whole
Speaker 1: conversation just flowed very naturally. Anyhow, that is our show
Speaker 1: for this week. We'll be back next week with more.
Speaker 1: What future end is always I wish you and your
Speaker 1: family the very best