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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You?

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Speaker 1: From House Towards dot com. This podcast is brought to

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Speaker 1: after what she wants and gets it, albeit with pitfalls

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Speaker 1: and humor along the way. That's bossy Pants, available from Audible.

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Speaker 1: mom Stuff. That's Audible podcast dot com slash Mom Stuff.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the pod cast. I'm Caroline and

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Speaker 1: I'm Kristen. Kristen. We talked about Glorious Dynham's call for

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Speaker 1: a boycott of the Playboy Club Last Time, which ended

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Speaker 1: up getting canned as as many of you know, um

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Speaker 1: but She's not the only one who had a bone

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Speaker 1: to pick with television shows this fall. There was so

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Speaker 1: much coverage of the gender dynamics of the fall lineup

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Speaker 1: on television that I almost almost got sick of reason

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Speaker 1: about it, which was kind of strange. Yeah, it seems

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Speaker 1: like everybody is the focus of of this uproar. This

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Speaker 1: that all this attention that's being put on fall TV

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Speaker 1: is not whether shows are good or bad necessarily. It's

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Speaker 1: we're not getting guides on what you should watch and

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Speaker 1: what you should ignore. It's more guides to uh, gender

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Speaker 1: roles on television shows this fall, and how they're changing,

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Speaker 1: how women are being perceived differently and portrayed differently, and

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Speaker 1: how men's roles on television are see to be changing also,

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Speaker 1: right and UM, since this podcast episode will probably be around,

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Speaker 1: I would predict a lot longer than a lot of

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Speaker 1: the sitcoms that are being rolled out this fall on

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Speaker 1: network television. UM, we're going to talk about obviously about

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Speaker 1: these news shows, but but more about kind of the

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Speaker 1: evolution of these characters, and also some classic female characters

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Speaker 1: who UM creators really got right, you know, who gave

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Speaker 1: women on TV UM some accurate and hilarious, syndromatic and

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Speaker 1: wise portrayals, right. And unfortunately on on the downside, well, well,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of good characters out there, and

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Speaker 1: well we'll talk about some some of our favorite characters

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Speaker 1: from the past too. UM. There's actually been a decline

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Speaker 1: in roles for women behind the camera. So while it

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Speaker 1: seems like there are a whole bunch of news shows

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Speaker 1: this fall that focus on women, it seems like the roles,

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Speaker 1: while they might be up overall from ten fifteen years ago,

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Speaker 1: they seem to be declar lining in the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years, right. And that's kind of the surprising thing

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Speaker 1: because a lot of these trend stories about fault television

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Speaker 1: UM really focused on the fact that there were these

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Speaker 1: female producers behind shows like Whitney and Two Broke Girls

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Speaker 1: and The New Girl. UM, whereas UH Martha lows In

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Speaker 1: at the Center for the Study of Women on TV

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Speaker 1: and Film UM says that women, like you said, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: the number of them behind the scenes has dropping. UM.

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Speaker 1: Women held of all jobs behind the scenes on TV

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Speaker 1: last season, and that's down from UM and the season

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Speaker 1: before that. U of the programs she analyzed employed no

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Speaker 1: women writers. UM and women created only eight percent of

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Speaker 1: the show. So while a lot of these Fall TV

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Speaker 1: shows are getting headlines for exploring these gender dynamics, a

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Speaker 1: lot of times they are being written and produced by dudes.

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Speaker 1: Which there's nothing wrong not to say that guys can't

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Speaker 1: talk about gender. But at the same time, if we're

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Speaker 1: saying that this is uh, you know, home run for

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Speaker 1: women in television, not necessarily the case, right. And it's

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Speaker 1: interesting because with the sheer number of men writing, you

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Speaker 1: would think that the portrayals of men would be better. Maybe,

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Speaker 1: But there's actually been several articles that I've seen, you know,

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Speaker 1: an entertainment weekly or New York magazine about the sad

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Speaker 1: men shows, the bitterness and every all the anger. It

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Speaker 1: seems like a lot of male characters this fall are

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Speaker 1: trying to reclaim some sense of idealized manhood, although I

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Speaker 1: don't know where it went and where they're trying to

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Speaker 1: get it back from. Well, I mean, the funniest anecdote

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Speaker 1: um that I heard about how a lot of these

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Speaker 1: shows were created. And we're talking about shows like Tim

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Speaker 1: Allen's Last Man Standing Man up um and Kevin Dillon's

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Speaker 1: How to Be a Gentleman Um. And I heard Hannah Rosen,

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Speaker 1: who was a writer for the Atlantic, saying that, um,

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Speaker 1: she was told that a number of male writers actually

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Speaker 1: took her article, um, the End of Men, which came

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Speaker 1: out I think it was in two thousand ten in

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Speaker 1: the Atlantic, And I mean it was just this this

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Speaker 1: huge article about how men's roles are basically thanks to

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Speaker 1: the recession, are going through this massive shake up and

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Speaker 1: women are kind of rising in the ranks, um in

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Speaker 1: the meantime. And she was saying that she heard that

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Speaker 1: guys were taking her article into the TV like creation rooms,

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Speaker 1: TV room, the magical magical conception room. Yes, and but

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Speaker 1: they were using this article as as their pitch for

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Speaker 1: the shows, saying, hey, look, you know, like the demise

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Speaker 1: of men, Let's call him, Let's call Tim Allen, get

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Speaker 1: him on, make that barking noise. So a post on

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Speaker 1: The Vulture, a New York magazine blog. The title of

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Speaker 1: it is the men of the new False Sitcoms would

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Speaker 1: hate the women of the false sitcom. So I think

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Speaker 1: we should talk about we should move over and talk

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Speaker 1: about some of the female characters that are on TV

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Speaker 1: this fall. Yeah, I think we've got to talk about

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Speaker 1: Whitney Cummings, Um, who not only stars in the sitcom

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Speaker 1: which just h was renewed I guess for a full season,

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Speaker 1: made the initial cut. Um she star hers in Whitney,

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Speaker 1: and then she's also the think the producer, the co

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Speaker 1: creator or the co creator of Two Broke Girls. UM,

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Speaker 1: and I you know, she she her whole her whole

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Speaker 1: stick is that she's this very brash, outspoken, uh foul

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Speaker 1: mouthed woman, and she in her in Whitney at least

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Speaker 1: she has this kind of you know, quiet or more

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Speaker 1: saltine boyfriend. And I tried, you know, I tried. I tried.

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Speaker 1: I tried to watch it, but it was just kind

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Speaker 1: of obvious that Um, instead of creating maybe these more

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Speaker 1: realistic and yes funny and outspoken female characters, they just

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Speaker 1: tried to insert as much, um, just masculine humor. I

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Speaker 1: guess it's like always having to use balls as a

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Speaker 1: as a punchline. Yeah. I don't know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: why they're doing it. Maybe it's like trying to reclaim again,

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Speaker 1: like the men are trying to reclaim masculinity, but maybe

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Speaker 1: the women are trying to stake acclaim like we can

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Speaker 1: be we can be tough too, we don't have to

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Speaker 1: be pretty, little cookie. We can be well, we can

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Speaker 1: be pretty, but we can also be crude. And I've

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Speaker 1: seen that um phrase as the Bridesmaids effect as Embridesmaids

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Speaker 1: the movie, which was hilarious, and yes, it was um

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Speaker 1: crass in the same way that something like The Hangover,

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Speaker 1: um is crass. And it brought in a ton of

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Speaker 1: money and it was great, and Meliss McCarthy and Christen

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Speaker 1: Wig are awesome. Um, but I think that if it becomes,

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Speaker 1: you know, this knee jerk type of comedy that women

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Speaker 1: have to do, it's not going to be that funny, right.

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Speaker 1: The Washington Time sort of says something along those lines. Um,

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Speaker 1: It actually says if the fall TV season is any guy,

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Speaker 1: the sexual revolution that was supposed to liberate men and

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Speaker 1: women from traditional sex roles seems to have resulted instead

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Speaker 1: in a straight up role reversal, basically saying that these

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Speaker 1: the men are just portrayed as these messes who need

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Speaker 1: women to tell them what to do, how to dress,

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Speaker 1: go get a job, where their female counterparts seemed to

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Speaker 1: be acting as the chauvinist pigs in this scenario. Unless

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Speaker 1: we're talking about one sitcom, UM, New Girl, The New Girl.

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Speaker 1: We got to talk about it. I don't I don't

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Speaker 1: want to harp on it because I think we're gonna

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Speaker 1: you know, I'll be interested to know what listeners think

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Speaker 1: about Zoe Deschannal's new show, The New Girl. He's adorable.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah, okay, so she was asked during some

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Speaker 1: promotional press thing before the show started, when did you

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Speaker 1: first realize you were adorable? And she is adorable. Anyone

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Speaker 1: who's not familiar was so a decientel. She's adorable. I

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Speaker 1: mean she she helped found a site called Hello Giggles.

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Speaker 1: You know, she's in um awesome duo, she and him.

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Speaker 1: I've seen she and him and it's a beautiful boys.

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Speaker 1: They're great. They're they're great. They do they do lovely.

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Speaker 1: She has excellent taste and vintage and uh and christ

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Speaker 1: And I notice you're not really commenting on her. Her

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Speaker 1: acting in this episode or this show, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I saw it and um and I watched the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: It was far more palatable than Whitney. Um. She sort

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Speaker 1: of represents the h I guess, the sweetie pie alter

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Speaker 1: ego of Whitney, whereas Whitney is like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: brush like a dude and shave my upper lip. Um.

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Speaker 1: Yeah wait really yeah, she has done the shows that

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Speaker 1: that actually got the biggest laugh out of me. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of um, let's instead of you and I,

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Speaker 1: uh just griping about this, Let's let's pin it on.

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Speaker 1: Let's pin the blame on someone else. Okay, good idea.

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Speaker 1: I gotta call out Julie klostner M, who is fantastic

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Speaker 1: um share the book I Don't Care about Your band

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Speaker 1: um in an hilarious comedian And she wrote this um

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Speaker 1: blog post recently called Don't Fear the Dowager of Valentine

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Speaker 1: to Maturity, And it was sort of going off on

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Speaker 1: the that brand of Zoe dii chnel like femininity. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of going around that, like I said, as at

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Speaker 1: the opposite end of the spectrum, the Bridesmaids spectrum. So

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Speaker 1: she writes, um, and despite the facade of cliquishness and

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Speaker 1: female friendship in the Roman, Michelle Nous of Galapal fun Times,

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Speaker 1: let's be real, we all know these manic pixie muppet

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Speaker 1: babies are really just in it for the boys. And

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Speaker 1: instead of acting like a woman who might remind a

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Speaker 1: skittish brow, more of his teacher or his mother. We're

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Speaker 1: going for the tweet, anime eyed version of whatever dream

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Speaker 1: girl we assume they want or need. And that's I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's an incredibly harsh assessment. But you know, it seems

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Speaker 1: like on television today, these are the new women were

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Speaker 1: being served up well kind of crotch grabbers or the

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Speaker 1: cupcake makers, right interesting cupcakes. I well, you know, she's

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Speaker 1: not the only one who who kind of dismisses Zoey

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Speaker 1: Deschanell's character and the show. Hank Steuver of The Washington

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Speaker 1: Post calls zoe Deshanell at age thirty two tweet and

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Speaker 1: says that she's too old to be acting like this,

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Speaker 1: as are the guys on the show. Who are the

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Speaker 1: ones making room in their lives for this um totally

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Speaker 1: whacked out female character. Oh man, so many people are

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Speaker 1: are going to write in saying, like hating us for

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Speaker 1: not loving not loving her entirely. But just remember all

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Speaker 1: the nice things that we said before. We critique just

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Speaker 1: for show, not her as a person. But let's stop griping. Um.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about maybe some some good things that are

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Speaker 1: going on, because I think that uh, Yeah, maybe the

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Speaker 1: new TV we're being served up is not it's not

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Speaker 1: so great for women or for men. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think men are the ones who are looking the worst

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Speaker 1: on screen these days. But it's not to say that

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Speaker 1: we don't have um a rich stable of solid female

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Speaker 1: characters to draw on. Yeah. Like one one actress getting

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Speaker 1: a lot of attention this fall for her her good

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Speaker 1: skills with a Z is Claire Dane. She stars in

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Speaker 1: the new show Homeland, and The New York Times says

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Speaker 1: she does a great job of playing an intelligent, high

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Speaker 1: strung woman. And uh I saw actually I think it

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Speaker 1: was on the New York magazine Vulture blog asking whether

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Speaker 1: or not this Claire Danes character is just a grown

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Speaker 1: up version of Angela Chan. Well, I just you know,

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Speaker 1: you gotta love Claire Danes because I feel like she

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Speaker 1: picks really intelligent characters to play, and you know, she's

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Speaker 1: always going to be I know she probably hates this,

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Speaker 1: but she's always going to be Angela Chase, which is

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Speaker 1: another great character. I mean, was fantastic. Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 1: It was a realistic show, and that gave a character

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Speaker 1: that we could all relate to, and it was something

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Speaker 1: that was able to um, maybe portray those sort of

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Speaker 1: stereotypical aspects of adolescent girlhood, but not in a in

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Speaker 1: a trite kind of way, right, not something that could

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Speaker 1: be wrapped up in a half an hour sitcom, you know,

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Speaker 1: Danny Tanner telling everybody that it's okay at the end.

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Speaker 1: And I would just like to go ahead and list

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Speaker 1: some of my other favorite female characters. Not all of

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Speaker 1: them are necessarily new to TV this fall, but Mariska

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Speaker 1: Hargeta from Law and Order. I love her, I love her,

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Speaker 1: and I love her character. I think she's great. Um.

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Speaker 1: And Katie Seagal she's in Sons of Anarchy, which is

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Speaker 1: a more recent show, but let us not forget the

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Speaker 1: inspiration for my Halloween costume last year. She is the

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Speaker 1: voice of Leela on Futurama, who was also a an

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Speaker 1: awesome character. UM. And then we I mean, thank god

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Speaker 1: for Tina Fey and Amy Polar absolutely um. And you

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Speaker 1: know one thing that we have not mentioned though, are

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Speaker 1: all of these sort of either retro recreations with Charlie's

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Speaker 1: Angels and then the now defunct Playboy Club and PanAm,

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Speaker 1: which are sort of in this uh this middle place

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Speaker 1: between these, you know, between the New Girl and Whitney.

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Speaker 1: You have these these retro glorifications, right um, Steve are

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Speaker 1: going back to the guy at the Washington Post. Um.

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Speaker 1: He criticizes these shows. He says that in times of recession,

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Speaker 1: you know, in times of uncertainty, we're going back. And

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Speaker 1: it's kind of along the lines of what Gloria Steinham

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Speaker 1: said about Playboy the Playboy Club, that we're just sort

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Speaker 1: of living in this nostalgia for some easier, better time

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Speaker 1: when really there was nothing easier or better about it.

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Speaker 1: We're just we're all having a rough time right now,

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Speaker 1: so we want to enjoy ourselves in the escapism of television.

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Speaker 1: But in the process we're sort of glossing over maybe

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Speaker 1: things that weren't so great. You know. I'm sure you

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Speaker 1: know flight attendants didn't have that easy at a time,

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Speaker 1: but this is this show makes it seem like oo

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Speaker 1: glamor is Yeah, I attended all the time, and I mean,

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Speaker 1: and I can I can understand what they're saying about,

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Speaker 1: because that is the other thing with all of this

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Speaker 1: coverage is everyone constantly goes back to the recession because

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Speaker 1: they link the recession to this gender shake up, to

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Speaker 1: this man crisis, to now all of these shows on

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Speaker 1: television that are, you know, demonstrating this type of role

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Speaker 1: reversal that may or may not actually be going on. UM,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I really just missed the days of

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Speaker 1: the of the Huxtables their hossible. I think it's the

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Speaker 1: coolest woman who has ever been on television. She is

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Speaker 1: what other family do you know would choreograph a dance

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Speaker 1: and song routine to a Ray Charles song When they

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Speaker 1: came down the stairs and they were all singing, and

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Speaker 1: Rudy was, oh God, I love that family. And well,

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Speaker 1: I realized that we we kind of have been all

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Speaker 1: over the place, and we've only mentioned Claire Huxtable as

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Speaker 1: as as and and Angela Chase um as awesome longtime

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Speaker 1: TV characters. UM and I would welcome anyone else to

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Speaker 1: just send in more names because there's so many that

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Speaker 1: we just don't have time to go over Murphy Brown,

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Speaker 1: but we haven't really talked about reality television and UM.

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Speaker 1: If anyone who hasn't heard of her before, I highly

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Speaker 1: recommend you checking out the research of Jennifer Posner, who

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Speaker 1: is the founder and executive director of Women in Media

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Speaker 1: and News and she's also the author of the book

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Speaker 1: reality bites back that looks at how the reality TV

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Speaker 1: phenomenon um is not only putting our consumer culture on

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Speaker 1: just steroids, but also offering these warped views of women

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Speaker 1: as well, right, women and ethnicity. Um. She as far

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Speaker 1: as just generally alarming television. She cites America's Next Top Model,

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Speaker 1: which of course giant product placement company promoting kind of

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Speaker 1: show that focuses on body issues. You can be an

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Speaker 1: empowered woman if you weigh seven pounds, right, um. And

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Speaker 1: the show that she cites is actually being the most

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Speaker 1: alarming for women of color is Flavor of Love, which

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Speaker 1: she said actually sort of shifted the representation of people

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Speaker 1: of color in the reality landscape, but not necessarily in

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Speaker 1: a good way, right, because it was just incredibly misogynistic

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Speaker 1: and also reading forest racial stereotypes constantly. And that was

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Speaker 1: one thing too that came um, that came up as

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Speaker 1: we were looking at all of this, this media coverage

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Speaker 1: of oh, women on television, women on television, What about

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Speaker 1: women of color on television or just you know, people

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Speaker 1: of color in general on TV. Maybe that's even more

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Speaker 1: of um, you know, of an issue that should be

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Speaker 1: a dressed um. But Posner does offer a few suggestions

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Speaker 1: for watching TV critically, because whether or not you are

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Speaker 1: a fan of Zodi Shanell doesn't matter so much, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's different taste for different people. But in terms

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Speaker 1: of just watching TV critically too, UM, evaluate the types

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Speaker 1: of gendered messages that it's sending. Uh. Posner recommends things

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Speaker 1: like looking out for framing, like the narrative messages of

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Speaker 1: shows like who is um? Who narrates the show? How

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Speaker 1: is it? What perspective does it revolve around? Um? What

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Speaker 1: is the racial dynamic of the show? Um? Is it realistic?

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Speaker 1: Think about exclusion as well, age, gender, ethnicity, appearance, sexual orientation,

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Speaker 1: profession Again, like, how how inclusive are these shows, whether

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Speaker 1: they're reality or they're scripted. Well, hopefully to end on

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Speaker 1: a on a hopeful note, yes, um, I'm hoping that

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Speaker 1: eventually the numbers improve across the board, behind, behind the camera,

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Speaker 1: in front of the camera. I mean, I know we

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Speaker 1: have a lot of women on TV this fall. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we can eventually get some better representations too. But UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, right now at the CW, according to Martha

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Speaker 1: alowsans numbers, UM, the CW has of their people behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes are women, and that sounds really pitiful, but

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Speaker 1: that's the most, that's the most at any of these

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Speaker 1: uh networks, between the CW, c W and a b

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Speaker 1: C I'm sorry, actually, followed by CBS at NBC and

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Speaker 1: eight at Fox. So good for the c W for

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Speaker 1: having more women, but hopefully that can improve. But fingers

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Speaker 1: shake to the TV industry for not rectifying those numbers sooner,

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Speaker 1: because you know, it definitely does seem like if we

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Speaker 1: want to change things on screen, you gotta change she

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Speaker 1: sings off screen. And let's just hope that it is

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Speaker 1: not a media trend in the future for women to

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Speaker 1: be on TV, producing TV, writing TV. So I think

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Speaker 1: that's all we have to say. And again, UH, don't

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Speaker 1: hate us for not loving the new girl. I know,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Like I would totally see her again if

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Speaker 1: she and him came through town and I and I

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Speaker 1: have her glasses too, so I mean, that's that's cool.

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Speaker 1: That's by the way, that's Kristen's Zoe Dectionell impression. It's good.

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Speaker 1: I like it alright. Well, on that note, UH, send

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Speaker 1: us your emails. I can't wait to read them. Mom

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Speaker 1: Stubb at house stepworks dot com is the address, and

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Speaker 1: I've got a quick email here from Kayla, and she

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Speaker 1: actually has a what she calls a funny and romantic

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Speaker 1: pick up artist story. Um. She said that she read

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Speaker 1: the game and listened to the podcast and she was

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Speaker 1: joking to her boyfriend that she would never fall for

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Speaker 1: a guy like that, and he said, well, actually that

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Speaker 1: did work on you. I was dumbfounded, and he explained

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Speaker 1: to me that when we first started talking to Halloween party,

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Speaker 1: I commented on his interesting ring and he handed it

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Speaker 1: to me to admire and hold on too for a while.

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Speaker 1: He later asked for and received my number. I realized

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Speaker 1: that I was wrong in my analysis of the pickup

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Speaker 1: artist style and that it can be like quote unquote

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Speaker 1: chick crack, and that out of context, some of the

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Speaker 1: pickup artist techniques may seem ridiculous, but lo and behold,

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Speaker 1: they actually work, and I am thankful for it. M hm, Well,

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Speaker 1: I have this message from Shawna. She said that she

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Speaker 1: found our comments on the difference in single culture on

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Speaker 1: the opposite sides of the Atlantic interesting. I crossed the

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Speaker 1: ocean a few years ago and happened to find love

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Speaker 1: in Sweden. I'm really not interested in getting married, ever,

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Speaker 1: this works out great for me in Sweden, because, as

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Speaker 1: you pointed out, marriage really is not a priority, even

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Speaker 1: when their children involved. I've been with my Swedish Man

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Speaker 1: for a while now, and I find that my friends

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Speaker 1: from the States, most of whom are married with children already,

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Speaker 1: will spare aradically messaged me to ask things like is

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Speaker 1: he the one? Have you picked out a ring yet?

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Speaker 1: Lots of question marks. Um. While it's charming that they

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Speaker 1: are thinking of me, it's quite difficult to respond without

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Speaker 1: violating my own values or my friends values. Most times,

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Speaker 1: I think my response sounds like we're together for now,

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Speaker 1: but we're not that into each other, which couldn't be

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Speaker 1: further from the truth. She goes on to explain some

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Speaker 1: words in Swedish for different types of relationships, which I

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Speaker 1: think that's interesting. Um, the Swedish language actually accommodates different

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Speaker 1: types of relationships nicely. Aside from the boyfriend girlfriend category

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Speaker 1: for single people, there is also sambo and starbo. Sambo

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Speaker 1: is amashing of the words for together and living, which

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Speaker 1: means you're in a serious relationship and living together. Sarbo

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Speaker 1: is a mashing of words for a part and living,

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Speaker 1: which means you're in a serious relationship and living apart.

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Speaker 1: I am thankful that I have the ability to introduce

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Speaker 1: my boyfriend as my sambo, even when I'm speaking in

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Speaker 1: English to Swedish speakers, as I feel it more precisely

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Speaker 1: conveys the nature of our relationship. Every time I get

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Speaker 1: another email from a friend saying they want an invite

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Speaker 1: to my assumed future wedding, I wish English had a

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Speaker 1: similar category. Yeah, there should be something between boyfriend and

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Speaker 1: partner husband. It's maybe a little more descriptive and I

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Speaker 1: want to say that someone a listener on Twitter mentioned

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Speaker 1: that German as a similar um similar categorization as well.

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Speaker 1: Um So anyway, emails Mom Stuff and How Stuff Works

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00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,160
Speaker 1: dot Com. Head over to Facebook to like to sleep

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00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: a comment all that jazz. Follow us on Twitter too

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00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 1: if you like at Mom Stuff podcast, and then read

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00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: our blog during the week It's stuff Mom Never told you.

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00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: At how Stuff Works dot Com, be sure to check

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00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 1: out our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join

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00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: How Stuff Work staff as we explore the most promising

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00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,719
Speaker 1: and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow. The How Stuff Works iPhone

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Speaker 1: app has a ride. Dewlmoad it today on iTunes, brought

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