WEBVTT - Blessed are the Spiraling with Pastor Levi Lusko 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.880 Well, our next guest here on the INDJ podcast. 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:09.960 You are very excited about because he is a familiar 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:11.360 face to us. TJ. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:17.120 We met Pastor Levi Lusco in September of twenty twenty one. 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:21.720 We had a favorite segment when we hosted GMA three. 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:22.959 What was that segment? 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:25.920 It was Faith Friday. And I'm thinking back to September 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:28.760 of twenty twenty one. Oh, what a simpler time it 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:29.960 was for us, wasn't it? 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:31.800 Yes, it certainly was. 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:37.160 Oh yes, But we were able to have on faith 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:41.280 leaders every Friday who would lead our viewers into the 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:45.000 weekend with some inspiration, and we certainly took so much 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.120 with us as well, and it ended up becoming our 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.800 favorite segment. And so yes, I remember you remember Pastor 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.800 Levi Lusco. He has a powerful story of how he 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:58.280 became the amazing person he is and I know he's 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.480 still becoming. But cool thing as anyone who is a 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.440 fan of the podcast, I hope knows that one of 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:08.520 my best friends, we've done one or two podcasts with her. 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:09.320 Nikki Espina. 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:12.440 She's my running buddy, she's my best friend, and she 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:17.040 happened to go to Brooklyn the other day to go 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:20.680 to a run club that was hosted by none other 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:25.440 than Pastor Levi Lusco, and she said, Oh my gosh. 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:27.399 I ran into Levi Lusco. He has a brand new 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:27.880 book out. 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.160 It's called and I'm going to give you guys the 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.520 title here because I love it. Blessed are the Spiraling, 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:37.520 How the chaotic search for significance can lead to joy 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.720 through life's shifting seasons. And she sent me the book 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:42.679 and she said, you gotta listen to this. But also 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.039 I got to run with him. I got to run 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:49.480 with Levi's daughter, his wife. It was an inspiring moment, 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:51.080 and so I thought, wow, I didn't First of all, 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.760 I didn't know that Pastor Lusco ran and was such 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.840 a big runner, and we already had something in common 0:01:57.840 --> 0:01:59.280 with him. And then I just thought, let's bring him 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.440 on and talk about them. So without further ado, Pastor 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:04.880 Levi Lusco, thanks for being with us today. 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.720 Oh my gosh, it's such a joy. I look back 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.760 so fondly on meeting you guys back in the day, 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:15.480 and I've always had such warmth in my heart towards you. 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:19.000 And so what a small fun world to collide. I've 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.680 tracked with your journey I love watching the runs TJ. 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:26.080 Your hamstring thing. I felt the pain with you. Yeah, 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:28.400 so it's really thank you for having me on the podcast. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.360 That's cool to hear. And to your title, can I 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:35.000 get right to that? Blessed are the Spiraling? Now? A 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:36.799 lot of people can relate to that, and I think 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:39.200 about a year and a half ago, we would have 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.240 considered ourselves right in the thick of that. Who are 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.200 the spiraling? Is that essentially everybody? 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.600 I think sadly it tends to be almost all of 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.800 us at some point or another, usually at life's transition moments. 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:55.960 But we all end up spiraling, and not always through 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.240 bad things. I mean, we can spiral because of grief. 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:03.880 Of course, a job or career change, a catastrophic crisis 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:05.880 you go through can do it. For me, I went 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.120 through a lot of it. The spiral that I talk 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.480 about from the perspective of in the book was at 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.079 the end of my thirties, kind of that midlife energy. 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.160 For whatever reason, so many people when they hit the 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.519 apex point of life, the halfway point, there comes a 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.720 lot of destabilization. Part of that's necessary so that you 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:27.400 can get rid of what's not important, focus on what 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.680 you're supposed to do retool sort of for the second 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:34.040 half of life. But interestingly enough, early life crisis is 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.960 actually even more prevalent than a midlife or a later 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.960 life crisis. But spiraling comes in all shapes and sizes, 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.840 and it can even be weirdly enough, through something good. 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.040 You can spiral because of something you always wanted. You 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:48.800 maybe always wanted to be a parent, but then you 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:54.559 have kids and turns out there's complications too it, so, yeah. 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.160 Things aren't always what they seem. You get that dream 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.280 job and then you realize you're still not happy. 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:00.520 That definitely happened to me. 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.520 Where you're in the job that you'd been chasing your 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:05.280 whole life, and then you get there and you think, 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.360 why am I still not happy? You talk about midlife 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:12.240 crises in this book, but you say, this isn't about 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:16.960 like getting the sports car or changing who you're married to, 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.200 or you know, dressing differently. 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:21.159 It's actually much deeper than that. 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:25.279 Yeah, I think a lot of times to your point, Amy, 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:27.839 we sort of build up in our heads what an 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.440 accomplishment is going to feel like, or what it's supposed 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.480 to feel like when we quote unquote arrive Seth Godin 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:35.560 talks about how he always wanted to be a New 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.800 York Times bestseller and the day it finally happened, his 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:41.440 assistant called to tell him it had happened, and he 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.440 was horrified because he felt nothing. And I think sometimes 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:46.599 we build up what these things are going to feel like, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.600 and they cannot help but disappoint us because you know, 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.240 it's just it's different. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing. 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.600 But what I'm trying to communicate is that blessings and 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.560 burdens are both heavy, and so they can easily be 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:01.640 mistaken for one for another. And so I think it's 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.840 learning not just what we're facing, but how to think 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.800 about what we're facing. And I am a person of 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.760 faith like you guys, and I love the words of 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.200 Jesus and the beatitudes. Blessed are the poor and spirit. 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:18.600 Blessed are those who moarn. Blessed are those who are persecuted, 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:21.599 who are reviled. Now, none of those things we would 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:25.440 consider blessings. We want the lottery scratcher to win. We 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.520 want the front parking spot at the gym, which is 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.320 hilarious in its own way, that we need the front 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.520 row of parking spot before we because Heaven forbid we 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.760 work out on the way to working out. Real talk there. 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:41.520 But I think, according to Jesus, the true blessings comes 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.359 not when we're getting everything we ever wanted, but in 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.440 the difficulty, when we press into Him and we truly 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.760 experience the joy that's possible even in the midst of trials. 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.920 Can you hit on something a little more, you kind 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.160 of scratch the surface there. But this idea, and I'm 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.520 sure somebody heard it when you said it, when you 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.000 get exactly what you want, you thought it was what 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:02.640 you wanted, and you thought this was the thing that 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:04.200 was going to make you happy, and you were chasing, 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.400 and then you get it and you feel nothing. 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.240 What does that mean? I think it means that we 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:15.359 pin our hopes of happiness on things when things don't 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.600 really bring happiness. Possessions and status, all of the things 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:21.680 in the world. Jesus said it's possible to gain the 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.640 whole world, but lose your soul. The translation I like 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.719 for that verse actually means lose your very self, and 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:33.080 we can end up mistakenly thinking that success for whatever 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.279 that means in the season of life we're in, is 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.400 going to somehow fulfill us and what we are meant 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.040 to create, I believe, especially in the second half of life. 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.160 But it's true in all of life, is that there 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:48.640 are things that are far more significant than just success, 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.880 than being perceived as being important or whatever. But it's 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.599 funny even Jesus's disciples struggled with this because here he 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:58.120 is trying to go to the cross come out of 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.600 the tomb, and his disciples are arguing about which one 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.080 of them's the greatest disciple. And it's so easy to 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.080 kind of benchmark ourselves based on do I have more, 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:08.159 have I accomplished more, Do I have more followers? Do 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:09.960 I have more shine or riz or whatever it is 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.240 in the world's eyes. And so I think it's it's 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.760 learning to recalibrate, learning where to find true significance. And 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:18.520 I think that's the million dollar question. 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.720 Pastor LEVI, Man, you what you just said hit so 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.440 hard with me, and I'm guessing with TJ as well, 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.960 just because as much as I don't think I wanted 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:34.080 to consider my value wrapped up or a part of 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.600 or because of what I did for a living, but man, 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.280 when it's all taken away, when you're stripped down to 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:45.440 the very bare minimum of who you are and what 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.120 counts and what matters. All that stuff that you use 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.000 to distract yourself or to fill yourself up or to 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:52.360 make yourself feel important. 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.360 When it all is gone, you are forced to face 0:07:57.360 --> 0:07:58.119 what is within. 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:03.760 And that is so difficult and at times felt like 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:06.760 hopeless in moments. But it's only I think, when you 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.760 get to that place where you're forced to face how 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.440 we're valuing ourselves and how we value each other. You know, 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.880 we you know, just had a very like all in 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:22.240 your face all at once, just avalanche of that. 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.360 But my god, I am a better person because of it. 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.600 So I'm hearing what you have to say and it's resonating, 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.160 but it's really hard, And how do you even know? 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.240 How do you even confront that if you don't have 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:35.360 some explosive thing. 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:36.080 That happens to you. 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.760 I mean maybe something happens to everyone at some point, 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.040 but how do you get to that place of recognition? 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.640 You know, what you're describing is so important. What we 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.000 think is going to make us happy is usually not 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:52.840 what truly brings meaning to our lives. If you were 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.320 to ask the average person, would you rather have cancer 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.839 or win the lottery, like most people are going to hello, 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.520 I'd like to win the lottery. Yet most lottery winners 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.079 find that it does not enrich their lives in many ways, 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.600 can complicate and even destroy their life in the fabric 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:12.560 of their friendships and relationships. And yet almost every cancer survivor, 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.200 without question, who comes through the experience says, I have 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.040 a greater sense of gratitude, I have a greater sense 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.800 of appreciation. I'm more thankful and more grounded. I mean, 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.120 Jeremy Renner, who got run over by a fourteen thousand 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.920 pounds snowplow, says, when you ask Joe Rogan said are 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:28.760 you better? Have you recovered from that? And he said, 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.440 I haven't just recovered. I'm better, I'm one hundred and 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.200 fifty percent. I'm more thankful. There are so many gifts. 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.200 I'm so grateful for that experience. What is that? That 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:42.480 is the stripping away? He lost everything, thirty eight broken bones, liver, peers, lung, collapsed, brain, 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.440 skull crushed, and yet he's coming through saying I'm so 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.320 thankful I went through that. You know what you guys 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:52.840 are describing, And in my life grief, lost, death, pain, 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:57.080 And I think for me even my midlife crisis sort 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.280 of exposed me to how much of my identity and 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.440 ego were connected to youth. Because I was ordained as 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.240 a pastor at twenty, and as I kind of pastored 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.320 around the world, traveling got opportunities. Every time, it was 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:11.439 always just oh, this young pastor, this young pastor, and 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.560 I didn't realize how much of that kind of had 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:15.800 had had led to how I saw me. And I 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.080 don't think we know what makes us us until it 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.600 gets taken from us, and then we find out if 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.360 we were building on sand or rock. And the only 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:28.200 true meaning, as I see it, that actually lasts eternity 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.240 is our standing before God, our love from Jesus. And 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.360 I think when we build our lives and our relationships 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.000 on those things that can't get taken away, then we're 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.320 able to go through whatever trials we want, and there's 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:41.319 going to be true Joy. 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:51.840 I'm going back to the title of your book here 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:55.320 you're talking. You called it chaotic. Was a chaotic search 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:59.240 for significance. Go through that part of that we can 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.320 all kind of relate to. All Right, we're all searching 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:03.040 for something. Want to be a part of search for 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:07.040 significance makes sense, but explain what we're doing there chaotic. 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:12.880 So Ronald Rollheiser said that success still feels good in 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.240 the second half of life, it just has less to 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.640 teach us. Okay, So what we're trying to learn how 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.520 to do is to focus less just on what we 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:24.880 do that makes us feel important and what we can 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.200 do that actually enriches our lives, which is to help 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:31.040 and to ennoble other people. So the way I talk 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:33.319 about it in the book, because I see life through movies, 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.760 we all want to be Luke Skywalker or Princess Leah forever, 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.400 but we need in life to graduate to being Obi 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.880 wan Kenobi and then eventually to be Yoda. Right. Yoda 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.960 spent his life at the Yoda Academy, teaching and distilling 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.360 principles of wisdom to help other people. And there's a 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.920 beauty in that to not trying to stay forever young 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:57.320 and stay at the top of our game because we 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:01.240 can't do that, but instead too great fully accept that 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.480 seasons of life contain God's glory, even if they're not 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.520 all the season that we look at as like that's 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.520 our my glory days. Right, And so the chaotic search 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:15.240 for significance is as we navigate the shifting seasons of 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.800 life and pain and betrayal and confusion and our own 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.840 bad decisions too, because part of for me, I know 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:24.559 I'm complicit in my own suffering. Some of my spiraling 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:30.240 is self inflicted, you know, whether expectations or narcissism, that 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.959 I struggle with, my own addiction to social media, and 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.160 you know that I can't silence those things and just 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:37.679 get out and take a run more often, which is 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.480 part of the way running Running has become therapeutic for me, 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:45.400 because there's nothing that comes with you in the chaos 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.760 of life when you're out on a run, hopefully, and 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:51.920 and so I think it's learning even when I'm feeling 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.440 like I co'm spiraling, to instead say hey, what can 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:57.280 I do? How can I focus? How can I call 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:59.960 and encourage somebody? How can I do something for somebody else? 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.320 What can I do good for me and my connection 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.760 to my soul, my wife, my kids? And you always 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:07.800 come away from those things better because they're significant. They're 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.480 not just the flashy you know, less of the flesh, 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.080 less of the eyes, pride of life, steps that the 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:14.320 world wants you to focus on. 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:20.480 I know that so much of anyone who is a 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.360 part of self help, and it's about finding the joy 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.960 from within that it's not looking at it from outside 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:30.160 sources or external sources. However, I know that you and 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.920 your wife Jenny of twenty one years, have you been 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:33.880 married for twenty one years? 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.800 Congratulations first of all, but you all. 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:42.160 Actually have published marriage devotionals and you you actually tell people, 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:44.880 teach people how to have a stronger marriage. 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.360 How important is the partner you choose to go through 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:48.880 life with. 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:50.840 Oh, it's massive. 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.840 So important is that to your own personal joy and peace? 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.480 I think it's massively important. And when we wrote the 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.160 marriage devotional are goal was to not paint because I 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.840 think we've all read books on marriage that are unrealistic 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.720 and like trying to like pretend that perfection is achievable, 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.760 but that's not going to happen. We we deal with 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.439 each other. We're broken. We all have, you know, shadow 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.000 sides and all that and pain and family of origin stuff, 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.840 and that's difficult. But I think accepting that that we're 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.479 gonna we're gonna grow together, that we can make progress, 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:25.600 which is all that God wants from us, that we 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:27.600 just take a step forward. You know, he sees us 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:29.840 as little kids. And I think to the extent that 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.560 we can have compassion and empathy and curiosity. So for 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.320 Jenny and I think we've discovered that when maybe she's 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.120 seeing a strong emotional reaction to me or vice versa, 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:45.080 and we can, instead of being matching that energy, instead 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.280 to be curious and go, oh, I wonder where that's 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.320 coming from. That's not normally had any response to something 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.440 like that, and and come from a place of curiosity 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:57.560 and wonder and empathy, and that our connection can can maintain. 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.320 What my counselor likes to say is hydration. You know, 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:01.720 we all know what I like it's like to have 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.880 dry skin. We put lotion on. Well, our marriages are 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.880 our relationships can get dehydrated, and so what sort of 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.200 moistens the bond or keeps it hydrated thus not cracking 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:19.760 and not painful. Is is of course love, languages, time spent, 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.320 questions that are asked, little little thoughtful things, And I 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:26.560 think whatever we can do to grow and to take 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:28.720 a step forward in our relationship, it's just going to 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:30.280 bring blessing to our lives as well. 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.960 What do you do, though, pastor, I guess when your 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.320 partner reacts a certain way and you're not curious at all, 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:41.040 and you really don't care. It's probably not good, huh. 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:45.240 I think the biblical word would be repentance, change your mind, 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.440 you know, And I think it is really important. And 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:49.840 I try and point out like we're not always going 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:52.720 to feel like doing the right things right. I don't 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.360 oft I feel often like a Taco bell drive through 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.680 and not a kale salad. But I'm going to feel 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.000 afterwards so much better when I do what I don't 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.560 feel like doing. And I like how C. S. Lewis 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.120 said that worship, when we worship God, it's not a 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.640 feeling that we express through an action. It's an act 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.400 of obedience that oftentimes develops feelings on the back end. 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.400 So in the Book of Ephesians, Paul says husbands love 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:20.000 your wives. He never says, feel like loving your wife. 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.600 And you know, we talk to people sometimes to go, oh, 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:24.040 I just didn't I fell out of love or I 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.240 just didn't feel like doing it. It's like, well, you 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.239 can choose to do what you don't feel and oftentimes 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.280 you'll you'll get the feeling on the back end as 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:32.440 a gift. 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:34.960 What else do you have that can you lend to 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.120 people in that moment that it's that moment? What else 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.400 could you offer to people as advice when they're feeling 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.200 terrible but then there's someone else who needs help, or 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.200 there's someone else who wants their attention. That that moment 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.600 where you just feel so down and you don't feel 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:52.720 like doing anything else but balling up and crying, and 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.440 why isn't everybody feeling sorry for me? 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:55.200 Yeah? 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.440 What do you advise in that moment to get them 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:00.800 to that obedience? Talk about? 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.040 Well, two things. First of all, that's relatable. We all 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.320 have days where we're just having pity party parties and 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.200 no one knows the troubles I've seen and all the rest. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.280 I think a lot of times we have to do 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.639 the exact opposite of what we're feeling. You know, you 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.919 feel like pulling the covers over your head. That's what 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:18.760 it's most important to get out and take a walk, 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:21.280 take a run, turn your phone off and get in nature. 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.400 I think one of the things, especially as we live 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:29.359 lives in urban areas, we're created to crave creation. So 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:31.960 people get better in hospitals even if they have a 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.160 view of a tree outside the window, faster and they 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.360 take less medicine than if they're in a self contained environment. 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.960 So I think we can choose to get around animals, 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.639 we can get around nature. Adam and Eve lived in 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.199 the Garden of Eden, and there's a certain awe that 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.280 comes from being in the midst of a park. And 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:54.880 they say that you have higher levels of empathy, generosity, creativity, 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.800 and lower levels of stress after you've done something that 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.040 induces awe. And this is a psychology Todays study. They 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.640 said all comes from a religious service. Or go to church, 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.120 or listen to worship music or a Christian podcast right, 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.480 or go to a museum and look at painting you 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.120 could have met. You're gonna walk away feeling awe. There's 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.320 a sense of transcendence. I mean you're looking at Louis 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.800 the fourteenth bedroom set. I mean it's like you're like, well, 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.600 that's incredible of some of the paintings, sculptures, but then 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.520 also being in nature. So I think on our low moments, 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.320 we can do either do something good for ourself or 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:31.840 do something that's good for others. And they spell joy, Jesus, others, yourself, 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:34.040 And when we flip it and put ourselves first, we 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.840 don't experience joy. But when it's God first and then 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.520 other people then us, I think we actually get to 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:41.720 tap into something better than just our own happiness. 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.200 That's amazing, And you know it's true anyone. 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:48.240 I mean, I love being out in nature, and we 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.359 were just in Arkansas even and for us living in 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.160 New York City sometimes it's difficult, and I do feel 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.800 a little oppressed. And then the moment I get out 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.919 and I see rolling hills and green grass and trees, 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.320 like my whole mood lifts and changes. So that speaks 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.280 so to me, and I think that that, yes, when 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:11.280 you're feeling sad or low like for us runners, I've 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:15.280 always said running has been my therapy. I've obviously also 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.720 sought therapy, but running is just that moment where you're 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:22.960 forced to push through pain to do something you don't 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.800 want to do. Sometimes it sounds counterintuitive, but anyone who 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:29.199 runs nos a lot of the times you're running and 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.000 you want to stop, but you do it anyway, and 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.879 it's when you finish that's when you feel that moment. 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:35.600 So I totally get that. 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:35.960 Yeah. 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.200 When we were preparing to release the book Blessed Aspiraling, 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:40.600 my publisher had said, do you want to do a 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:42.240 book too, or we could do some signings at some 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.000 independent bookstores around the country. And we had this idea 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:47.199 to attach run clubs to it, which is how I 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.680 met your friend, Nikki, because I thought to myself, number one, 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:52.840 I'm going to have to get an exercise on the 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.080 road anyway, and I'd rather do it for work than 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.160 just do it for leisure. And I thought it would 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.239 be a fun experience to get to meet some our 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.239 readers who over the years have read our books, and 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:05.320 it ended up being one of the most rewarding experiences 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.960 of my life. We started in Dallas, ended in Brooklyn, 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.600 and we had seven cities, seven runs, seven days. Every 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:12.679 day we would do a signing and then anybody that 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:14.080 wanted to we would just go to a three mile 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:18.359 social run with them. And the amount of like meeting Nikki, 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.879 talking to her, hearing her story. My daughters were with us, 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.000