Speaker 1: Well, our next guest here on the INDJ podcast.
Speaker 2: You are very excited about because he is a familiar
Speaker 2: face to us. TJ.
Speaker 1: We met Pastor Levi Lusco in September of twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: We had a favorite segment when we hosted GMA three.
Speaker 2: What was that segment?
Speaker 3: It was Faith Friday. And I'm thinking back to September
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty one. Oh, what a simpler time it
Speaker 3: was for us, wasn't it?
Speaker 2: Yes, it certainly was.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, But we were able to have on faith
Speaker 1: leaders every Friday who would lead our viewers into the
Speaker 1: weekend with some inspiration, and we certainly took so much
Speaker 1: with us as well, and it ended up becoming our
Speaker 1: favorite segment. And so yes, I remember you remember Pastor
Speaker 1: Levi Lusco. He has a powerful story of how he
Speaker 1: became the amazing person he is and I know he's
Speaker 1: still becoming. But cool thing as anyone who is a
Speaker 1: fan of the podcast, I hope knows that one of
Speaker 1: my best friends, we've done one or two podcasts with her.
Speaker 2: Nikki Espina.
Speaker 1: She's my running buddy, she's my best friend, and she
Speaker 1: happened to go to Brooklyn the other day to go
Speaker 1: to a run club that was hosted by none other
Speaker 1: than Pastor Levi Lusco, and she said, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: I ran into Levi Lusco. He has a brand new
Speaker 2: book out.
Speaker 1: It's called and I'm going to give you guys the
Speaker 1: title here because I love it. Blessed are the Spiraling,
Speaker 1: How the chaotic search for significance can lead to joy
Speaker 1: through life's shifting seasons. And she sent me the book
Speaker 1: and she said, you gotta listen to this. But also
Speaker 1: I got to run with him. I got to run
Speaker 1: with Levi's daughter, his wife. It was an inspiring moment,
Speaker 1: and so I thought, wow, I didn't First of all,
Speaker 1: I didn't know that Pastor Lusco ran and was such
Speaker 1: a big runner, and we already had something in common
Speaker 1: with him. And then I just thought, let's bring him
Speaker 1: on and talk about them. So without further ado, Pastor
Speaker 1: Levi Lusco, thanks for being with us today.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, it's such a joy. I look back
Speaker 4: so fondly on meeting you guys back in the day,
Speaker 4: and I've always had such warmth in my heart towards you.
Speaker 4: And so what a small fun world to collide. I've
Speaker 4: tracked with your journey I love watching the runs TJ.
Speaker 4: Your hamstring thing. I felt the pain with you. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so it's really thank you for having me on the podcast.
Speaker 3: That's cool to hear. And to your title, can I
Speaker 3: get right to that? Blessed are the Spiraling? Now? A
Speaker 3: lot of people can relate to that, and I think
Speaker 3: about a year and a half ago, we would have
Speaker 3: considered ourselves right in the thick of that. Who are
Speaker 3: the spiraling? Is that essentially everybody?
Speaker 4: I think sadly it tends to be almost all of
Speaker 4: us at some point or another, usually at life's transition moments.
Speaker 4: But we all end up spiraling, and not always through
Speaker 4: bad things. I mean, we can spiral because of grief.
Speaker 4: Of course, a job or career change, a catastrophic crisis
Speaker 4: you go through can do it. For me, I went
Speaker 4: through a lot of it. The spiral that I talk
Speaker 4: about from the perspective of in the book was at
Speaker 4: the end of my thirties, kind of that midlife energy.
Speaker 4: For whatever reason, so many people when they hit the
Speaker 4: apex point of life, the halfway point, there comes a
Speaker 4: lot of destabilization. Part of that's necessary so that you
Speaker 4: can get rid of what's not important, focus on what
Speaker 4: you're supposed to do retool sort of for the second
Speaker 4: half of life. But interestingly enough, early life crisis is
Speaker 4: actually even more prevalent than a midlife or a later
Speaker 4: life crisis. But spiraling comes in all shapes and sizes,
Speaker 4: and it can even be weirdly enough, through something good.
Speaker 4: You can spiral because of something you always wanted. You
Speaker 4: maybe always wanted to be a parent, but then you
Speaker 4: have kids and turns out there's complications too it, so, yeah.
Speaker 1: Things aren't always what they seem. You get that dream
Speaker 1: job and then you realize you're still not happy.
Speaker 2: That definitely happened to me.
Speaker 1: Where you're in the job that you'd been chasing your
Speaker 1: whole life, and then you get there and you think,
Speaker 1: why am I still not happy? You talk about midlife
Speaker 1: crises in this book, but you say, this isn't about
Speaker 1: like getting the sports car or changing who you're married to,
Speaker 1: or you know, dressing differently.
Speaker 2: It's actually much deeper than that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think a lot of times to your point, Amy,
Speaker 4: we sort of build up in our heads what an
Speaker 4: accomplishment is going to feel like, or what it's supposed
Speaker 4: to feel like when we quote unquote arrive Seth Godin
Speaker 4: talks about how he always wanted to be a New
Speaker 4: York Times bestseller and the day it finally happened, his
Speaker 4: assistant called to tell him it had happened, and he
Speaker 4: was horrified because he felt nothing. And I think sometimes
Speaker 4: we build up what these things are going to feel like,
Speaker 4: and they cannot help but disappoint us because you know,
Speaker 4: it's just it's different. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
Speaker 4: But what I'm trying to communicate is that blessings and
Speaker 4: burdens are both heavy, and so they can easily be
Speaker 4: mistaken for one for another. And so I think it's
Speaker 4: learning not just what we're facing, but how to think
Speaker 4: about what we're facing. And I am a person of
Speaker 4: faith like you guys, and I love the words of
Speaker 4: Jesus and the beatitudes. Blessed are the poor and spirit.
Speaker 4: Blessed are those who moarn. Blessed are those who are persecuted,
Speaker 4: who are reviled. Now, none of those things we would
Speaker 4: consider blessings. We want the lottery scratcher to win. We
Speaker 4: want the front parking spot at the gym, which is
Speaker 4: hilarious in its own way, that we need the front
Speaker 4: row of parking spot before we because Heaven forbid we
Speaker 4: work out on the way to working out. Real talk there.
Speaker 4: But I think, according to Jesus, the true blessings comes
Speaker 4: not when we're getting everything we ever wanted, but in
Speaker 4: the difficulty, when we press into Him and we truly
Speaker 4: experience the joy that's possible even in the midst of trials.
Speaker 3: Can you hit on something a little more, you kind
Speaker 3: of scratch the surface there. But this idea, and I'm
Speaker 3: sure somebody heard it when you said it, when you
Speaker 3: get exactly what you want, you thought it was what
Speaker 3: you wanted, and you thought this was the thing that
Speaker 3: was going to make you happy, and you were chasing,
Speaker 3: and then you get it and you feel nothing.
Speaker 4: What does that mean? I think it means that we
Speaker 4: pin our hopes of happiness on things when things don't
Speaker 4: really bring happiness. Possessions and status, all of the things
Speaker 4: in the world. Jesus said it's possible to gain the
Speaker 4: whole world, but lose your soul. The translation I like
Speaker 4: for that verse actually means lose your very self, and
Speaker 4: we can end up mistakenly thinking that success for whatever
Speaker 4: that means in the season of life we're in, is
Speaker 4: going to somehow fulfill us and what we are meant
Speaker 4: to create, I believe, especially in the second half of life.
Speaker 4: But it's true in all of life, is that there
Speaker 4: are things that are far more significant than just success,
Speaker 4: than being perceived as being important or whatever. But it's
Speaker 4: funny even Jesus's disciples struggled with this because here he
Speaker 4: is trying to go to the cross come out of
Speaker 4: the tomb, and his disciples are arguing about which one
Speaker 4: of them's the greatest disciple. And it's so easy to
Speaker 4: kind of benchmark ourselves based on do I have more,
Speaker 4: have I accomplished more, Do I have more followers? Do
Speaker 4: I have more shine or riz or whatever it is
Speaker 4: in the world's eyes. And so I think it's it's
Speaker 4: learning to recalibrate, learning where to find true significance. And
Speaker 4: I think that's the million dollar question.
Speaker 1: Pastor LEVI, Man, you what you just said hit so
Speaker 1: hard with me, and I'm guessing with TJ as well,
Speaker 1: just because as much as I don't think I wanted
Speaker 1: to consider my value wrapped up or a part of
Speaker 1: or because of what I did for a living, but man,
Speaker 1: when it's all taken away, when you're stripped down to
Speaker 1: the very bare minimum of who you are and what
Speaker 1: counts and what matters. All that stuff that you use
Speaker 1: to distract yourself or to fill yourself up or to
Speaker 1: make yourself feel important.
Speaker 2: When it all is gone, you are forced to face
Speaker 2: what is within.
Speaker 1: And that is so difficult and at times felt like
Speaker 1: hopeless in moments. But it's only I think, when you
Speaker 1: get to that place where you're forced to face how
Speaker 1: we're valuing ourselves and how we value each other. You know,
Speaker 1: we you know, just had a very like all in
Speaker 1: your face all at once, just avalanche of that.
Speaker 2: But my god, I am a better person because of it.
Speaker 1: So I'm hearing what you have to say and it's resonating,
Speaker 1: but it's really hard, And how do you even know?
Speaker 1: How do you even confront that if you don't have
Speaker 1: some explosive thing.
Speaker 2: That happens to you.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe something happens to everyone at some point,
Speaker 1: but how do you get to that place of recognition?
Speaker 4: You know, what you're describing is so important. What we
Speaker 4: think is going to make us happy is usually not
Speaker 4: what truly brings meaning to our lives. If you were
Speaker 4: to ask the average person, would you rather have cancer
Speaker 4: or win the lottery, like most people are going to hello,
Speaker 4: I'd like to win the lottery. Yet most lottery winners
Speaker 4: find that it does not enrich their lives in many ways,
Speaker 4: can complicate and even destroy their life in the fabric
Speaker 4: of their friendships and relationships. And yet almost every cancer survivor,
Speaker 4: without question, who comes through the experience says, I have
Speaker 4: a greater sense of gratitude, I have a greater sense
Speaker 4: of appreciation. I'm more thankful and more grounded. I mean,
Speaker 4: Jeremy Renner, who got run over by a fourteen thousand
Speaker 4: pounds snowplow, says, when you ask Joe Rogan said are
Speaker 4: you better? Have you recovered from that? And he said,
Speaker 4: I haven't just recovered. I'm better, I'm one hundred and
Speaker 4: fifty percent. I'm more thankful. There are so many gifts.
Speaker 4: I'm so grateful for that experience. What is that? That
Speaker 4: is the stripping away? He lost everything, thirty eight broken bones, liver, peers, lung, collapsed, brain,
Speaker 4: skull crushed, and yet he's coming through saying I'm so
Speaker 4: thankful I went through that. You know what you guys
Speaker 4: are describing, And in my life grief, lost, death, pain,
Speaker 4: And I think for me even my midlife crisis sort
Speaker 4: of exposed me to how much of my identity and
Speaker 4: ego were connected to youth. Because I was ordained as
Speaker 4: a pastor at twenty, and as I kind of pastored
Speaker 4: around the world, traveling got opportunities. Every time, it was
Speaker 4: always just oh, this young pastor, this young pastor, and
Speaker 4: I didn't realize how much of that kind of had
Speaker 4: had had led to how I saw me. And I
Speaker 4: don't think we know what makes us us until it
Speaker 4: gets taken from us, and then we find out if
Speaker 4: we were building on sand or rock. And the only
Speaker 4: true meaning, as I see it, that actually lasts eternity
Speaker 4: is our standing before God, our love from Jesus. And
Speaker 4: I think when we build our lives and our relationships
Speaker 4: on those things that can't get taken away, then we're
Speaker 4: able to go through whatever trials we want, and there's
Speaker 4: going to be true Joy.
Speaker 3: I'm going back to the title of your book here
Speaker 3: you're talking. You called it chaotic. Was a chaotic search
Speaker 3: for significance. Go through that part of that we can
Speaker 3: all kind of relate to. All Right, we're all searching
Speaker 3: for something. Want to be a part of search for
Speaker 3: significance makes sense, but explain what we're doing there chaotic.
Speaker 4: So Ronald Rollheiser said that success still feels good in
Speaker 4: the second half of life, it just has less to
Speaker 4: teach us. Okay, So what we're trying to learn how
Speaker 4: to do is to focus less just on what we
Speaker 4: do that makes us feel important and what we can
Speaker 4: do that actually enriches our lives, which is to help
Speaker 4: and to ennoble other people. So the way I talk
Speaker 4: about it in the book, because I see life through movies,
Speaker 4: we all want to be Luke Skywalker or Princess Leah forever,
Speaker 4: but we need in life to graduate to being Obi
Speaker 4: wan Kenobi and then eventually to be Yoda. Right. Yoda
Speaker 4: spent his life at the Yoda Academy, teaching and distilling
Speaker 4: principles of wisdom to help other people. And there's a
Speaker 4: beauty in that to not trying to stay forever young
Speaker 4: and stay at the top of our game because we
Speaker 4: can't do that, but instead too great fully accept that
Speaker 4: seasons of life contain God's glory, even if they're not
Speaker 4: all the season that we look at as like that's
Speaker 4: our my glory days. Right, And so the chaotic search
Speaker 4: for significance is as we navigate the shifting seasons of
Speaker 4: life and pain and betrayal and confusion and our own
Speaker 4: bad decisions too, because part of for me, I know
Speaker 4: I'm complicit in my own suffering. Some of my spiraling
Speaker 4: is self inflicted, you know, whether expectations or narcissism, that
Speaker 4: I struggle with, my own addiction to social media, and
Speaker 4: you know that I can't silence those things and just
Speaker 4: get out and take a run more often, which is
Speaker 4: part of the way running Running has become therapeutic for me,
Speaker 4: because there's nothing that comes with you in the chaos
Speaker 4: of life when you're out on a run, hopefully, and
Speaker 4: and so I think it's learning even when I'm feeling
Speaker 4: like I co'm spiraling, to instead say hey, what can
Speaker 4: I do? How can I focus? How can I call
Speaker 4: and encourage somebody? How can I do something for somebody else?
Speaker 4: What can I do good for me and my connection
Speaker 4: to my soul, my wife, my kids? And you always
Speaker 4: come away from those things better because they're significant. They're
Speaker 4: not just the flashy you know, less of the flesh,
Speaker 4: less of the eyes, pride of life, steps that the
Speaker 4: world wants you to focus on.
Speaker 1: I know that so much of anyone who is a
Speaker 1: part of self help, and it's about finding the joy
Speaker 1: from within that it's not looking at it from outside
Speaker 1: sources or external sources. However, I know that you and
Speaker 1: your wife Jenny of twenty one years, have you been
Speaker 1: married for twenty one years?
Speaker 2: Congratulations first of all, but you all.
Speaker 1: Actually have published marriage devotionals and you you actually tell people,
Speaker 1: teach people how to have a stronger marriage.
Speaker 2: How important is the partner you choose to go through
Speaker 2: life with.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's massive.
Speaker 1: So important is that to your own personal joy and peace?
Speaker 4: I think it's massively important. And when we wrote the
Speaker 4: marriage devotional are goal was to not paint because I
Speaker 4: think we've all read books on marriage that are unrealistic
Speaker 4: and like trying to like pretend that perfection is achievable,
Speaker 4: but that's not going to happen. We we deal with
Speaker 4: each other. We're broken. We all have, you know, shadow
Speaker 4: sides and all that and pain and family of origin stuff,
Speaker 4: and that's difficult. But I think accepting that that we're
Speaker 4: gonna we're gonna grow together, that we can make progress,
Speaker 4: which is all that God wants from us, that we
Speaker 4: just take a step forward. You know, he sees us
Speaker 4: as little kids. And I think to the extent that
Speaker 4: we can have compassion and empathy and curiosity. So for
Speaker 4: Jenny and I think we've discovered that when maybe she's
Speaker 4: seeing a strong emotional reaction to me or vice versa,
Speaker 4: and we can, instead of being matching that energy, instead
Speaker 4: to be curious and go, oh, I wonder where that's
Speaker 4: coming from. That's not normally had any response to something
Speaker 4: like that, and and come from a place of curiosity
Speaker 4: and wonder and empathy, and that our connection can can maintain.
Speaker 4: What my counselor likes to say is hydration. You know,
Speaker 4: we all know what I like it's like to have
Speaker 4: dry skin. We put lotion on. Well, our marriages are
Speaker 4: our relationships can get dehydrated, and so what sort of
Speaker 4: moistens the bond or keeps it hydrated thus not cracking
Speaker 4: and not painful. Is is of course love, languages, time spent,
Speaker 4: questions that are asked, little little thoughtful things, And I
Speaker 4: think whatever we can do to grow and to take
Speaker 4: a step forward in our relationship, it's just going to
Speaker 4: bring blessing to our lives as well.
Speaker 3: What do you do, though, pastor, I guess when your
Speaker 3: partner reacts a certain way and you're not curious at all,
Speaker 3: and you really don't care. It's probably not good, huh.
Speaker 4: I think the biblical word would be repentance, change your mind,
Speaker 4: you know, And I think it is really important. And
Speaker 4: I try and point out like we're not always going
Speaker 4: to feel like doing the right things right. I don't
Speaker 4: oft I feel often like a Taco bell drive through
Speaker 4: and not a kale salad. But I'm going to feel
Speaker 4: afterwards so much better when I do what I don't
Speaker 4: feel like doing. And I like how C. S. Lewis
Speaker 4: said that worship, when we worship God, it's not a
Speaker 4: feeling that we express through an action. It's an act
Speaker 4: of obedience that oftentimes develops feelings on the back end.
Speaker 4: So in the Book of Ephesians, Paul says husbands love
Speaker 4: your wives. He never says, feel like loving your wife.
Speaker 4: And you know, we talk to people sometimes to go, oh,
Speaker 4: I just didn't I fell out of love or I
Speaker 4: just didn't feel like doing it. It's like, well, you
Speaker 4: can choose to do what you don't feel and oftentimes
Speaker 4: you'll you'll get the feeling on the back end as
Speaker 4: a gift.
Speaker 3: What else do you have that can you lend to
Speaker 3: people in that moment that it's that moment? What else
Speaker 3: could you offer to people as advice when they're feeling
Speaker 3: terrible but then there's someone else who needs help, or
Speaker 3: there's someone else who wants their attention. That that moment
Speaker 3: where you just feel so down and you don't feel
Speaker 3: like doing anything else but balling up and crying, and
Speaker 3: why isn't everybody feeling sorry for me?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: What do you advise in that moment to get them
Speaker 3: to that obedience? Talk about?
Speaker 4: Well, two things. First of all, that's relatable. We all
Speaker 4: have days where we're just having pity party parties and
Speaker 4: no one knows the troubles I've seen and all the rest.
Speaker 4: I think a lot of times we have to do
Speaker 4: the exact opposite of what we're feeling. You know, you
Speaker 4: feel like pulling the covers over your head. That's what
Speaker 4: it's most important to get out and take a walk,
Speaker 4: take a run, turn your phone off and get in nature.
Speaker 4: I think one of the things, especially as we live
Speaker 4: lives in urban areas, we're created to crave creation. So
Speaker 4: people get better in hospitals even if they have a
Speaker 4: view of a tree outside the window, faster and they
Speaker 4: take less medicine than if they're in a self contained environment.
Speaker 4: So I think we can choose to get around animals,
Speaker 4: we can get around nature. Adam and Eve lived in
Speaker 4: the Garden of Eden, and there's a certain awe that
Speaker 4: comes from being in the midst of a park. And
Speaker 4: they say that you have higher levels of empathy, generosity, creativity,
Speaker 4: and lower levels of stress after you've done something that
Speaker 4: induces awe. And this is a psychology Todays study. They
Speaker 4: said all comes from a religious service. Or go to church,
Speaker 4: or listen to worship music or a Christian podcast right,
Speaker 4: or go to a museum and look at painting you
Speaker 4: could have met. You're gonna walk away feeling awe. There's
Speaker 4: a sense of transcendence. I mean you're looking at Louis
Speaker 4: the fourteenth bedroom set. I mean it's like you're like, well,
Speaker 4: that's incredible of some of the paintings, sculptures, but then
Speaker 4: also being in nature. So I think on our low moments,
Speaker 4: we can do either do something good for ourself or
Speaker 4: do something that's good for others. And they spell joy, Jesus, others, yourself,
Speaker 4: And when we flip it and put ourselves first, we
Speaker 4: don't experience joy. But when it's God first and then
Speaker 4: other people then us, I think we actually get to
Speaker 4: tap into something better than just our own happiness.
Speaker 2: That's amazing, And you know it's true anyone.
Speaker 1: I mean, I love being out in nature, and we
Speaker 1: were just in Arkansas even and for us living in
Speaker 1: New York City sometimes it's difficult, and I do feel
Speaker 1: a little oppressed. And then the moment I get out
Speaker 1: and I see rolling hills and green grass and trees,
Speaker 1: like my whole mood lifts and changes. So that speaks
Speaker 1: so to me, and I think that that, yes, when
Speaker 1: you're feeling sad or low like for us runners, I've
Speaker 1: always said running has been my therapy. I've obviously also
Speaker 1: sought therapy, but running is just that moment where you're
Speaker 1: forced to push through pain to do something you don't
Speaker 1: want to do. Sometimes it sounds counterintuitive, but anyone who
Speaker 1: runs nos a lot of the times you're running and
Speaker 1: you want to stop, but you do it anyway, and
Speaker 1: it's when you finish that's when you feel that moment.
Speaker 2: So I totally get that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: When we were preparing to release the book Blessed Aspiraling,
Speaker 4: my publisher had said, do you want to do a
Speaker 4: book too, or we could do some signings at some
Speaker 4: independent bookstores around the country. And we had this idea
Speaker 4: to attach run clubs to it, which is how I
Speaker 4: met your friend, Nikki, because I thought to myself, number one,
Speaker 4: I'm going to have to get an exercise on the
Speaker 4: road anyway, and I'd rather do it for work than
Speaker 4: just do it for leisure. And I thought it would
Speaker 4: be a fun experience to get to meet some our
Speaker 4: readers who over the years have read our books, and
Speaker 4: it ended up being one of the most rewarding experiences
Speaker 4: of my life. We started in Dallas, ended in Brooklyn,
Speaker 4: and we had seven cities, seven runs, seven days. Every
Speaker 4: day we would do a signing and then anybody that
Speaker 4: wanted to we would just go to a three mile
Speaker 4: social run with them. And the amount of like meeting Nikki,
Speaker 4: talking to her, hearing her story. My daughters were with us,
Speaker 4: my wife ran with us, my son ran with us,
Speaker 4: and then getting to meet someone who a woman in
Speaker 4: the Brooklyn run said, I haven't run since my divorce.
Speaker 4: It was always something I did with my ex husband
Speaker 4: and I haven't been able to go there. But when
Speaker 4: I saw this, I felt like this could be my
Speaker 4: catalyst to run again, and so she got to go
Speaker 4: out and run, and her meeting other people and saying
Speaker 4: this was a big deal for me to conquer that fear.
Speaker 4: We met someone who was going through grief, and I
Speaker 4: felt stuck and stagnant. And I think sometimes when we're grieving,
Speaker 4: we feel like, why she just eat the ice cream
Speaker 4: and just stay home, But we end up feeling worse
Speaker 4: because of those things. So getting out and running. We
Speaker 4: saw two people at to Houston Run who they became
Speaker 4: best friends that night, and they were both left handed.
Speaker 4: They were both astrophysicists, and they both were tennis players
Speaker 4: who didn't have tennis partners. And so by the end
Speaker 4: of night they're like exchanging phone numbers. They're going to
Speaker 4: play tennis and be left handed and do astrophysics. And
Speaker 4: it was just one of those neat community things of
Speaker 4: running together. And I kept telling the people, I can't
Speaker 4: run your race for you, but I can run it
Speaker 4: with you. And I think when we remember we're not alone,
Speaker 4: other people are going through hard things and let's just
Speaker 4: keep running, it's a great metaphor for life.
Speaker 2: You are speaking our language.
Speaker 1: Yes, running has saved us more times than we could
Speaker 1: even care to share three time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, at times we've been running from people.
Speaker 2: That is true.
Speaker 1: We have.
Speaker 4: Blessed are you?
Speaker 1: You recently posted Pastor Levi something on Instagram and I
Speaker 1: wanted you to explain it because it caught my attention
Speaker 1: and I wanted to know.
Speaker 2: I wanted to go deeper with you.
Speaker 1: You posted this quote you don't need to try harder,
Speaker 1: you need to trust more.
Speaker 2: What does that mean?
Speaker 4: Well, I know for me, I tend to have a
Speaker 4: really unhealthy relationship with myself and it's all performance. I'm
Speaker 4: in Enneagram three e NTJ. So I'm so sick that,
Speaker 4: like even a birthday, I struggle with not from the
Speaker 4: aging process as much as I always I don't feel worthy.
Speaker 4: I don't feel like if I if I accomplish, if
Speaker 4: I haven't accomplished something, I don't necessarily feel like I
Speaker 4: should get a cake. And you know, so I tend
Speaker 4: to I find myself even like waiting to open a
Speaker 4: present until I feel like I can meet a deadline.
Speaker 4: And so I felt like the other day God was
Speaker 4: saying to me Levi, I wish you could see you
Speaker 4: like I see you, And God was saying I just
Speaker 4: love you. You don't need to do anything to earn
Speaker 4: my love. You just need to accept my love. And
Speaker 4: like the prodigal son didn't earn the party or the robe,
Speaker 4: or the ring or the feast, the father just loved him.
Speaker 4: And so when I posted that, I was trying to
Speaker 4: communicate it's not about what we have to do to
Speaker 4: make God happy. I think sometimes religion pushes us into
Speaker 4: this mentality where we're always getting angry eyes from God
Speaker 4: and he's just saying, what have you done for me lately?
Speaker 4: You better make the sure, you better quit cussing, you better,
Speaker 4: you know whatever, and when really he just wants us
Speaker 4: to love him and be loved by him, and that's
Speaker 4: challenging for a striver like me, a doer. And so
Speaker 4: I think there's power and surrender power in realizing God
Speaker 4: is wanting to give us salvation as a gift, not
Speaker 4: as a wage, and we don't need to earn his love.
Speaker 3: Do you make a obviously your religious and faith based
Speaker 3: in your books, your teachings, and but what do you
Speaker 3: or how do you or do you try to at
Speaker 3: all try to get people and get a message out
Speaker 3: to folks who aren't religious, who are turned off by religion,
Speaker 3: not that you're trying to turn them in any way
Speaker 3: of form or fashion, but do you make a conscious
Speaker 3: effort to make sure your message can be digested by
Speaker 3: people outside of the faith world.
Speaker 4: Oh yes, I mean that's my goal. And heartbeat is
Speaker 4: Jesus changed my life. I was fourteen experimenting with drugs
Speaker 4: and alcohol, suicidal, and that's when I met Jesus and
Speaker 4: he opened my eyes, gave me love, helped me understand
Speaker 4: the power of true relationship with him, and that how
Speaker 4: I found that through through scripture and through the church.
Speaker 4: And I want everyone to experience that who's hurting and
Speaker 4: who's anxious, and who's troubled, and who feels like they're judged,
Speaker 4: whether it's through bad decisions they've made or pain they've
Speaker 4: gone through. And so my goal is for sure, especially
Speaker 4: for people who think, oh, I wouldn't like My favorite
Speaker 4: is when I invite someone to church and they say, oh,
Speaker 4: the roof would fall down on me if I came
Speaker 4: in there, and I go, well, hasn't fallen down on
Speaker 4: me yet, you know, And then to say like you
Speaker 4: might think you don't like Jesus, but wait till you
Speaker 4: meet him. Wait till you mean, wait till you read
Speaker 4: what he has to say, what he wants to say
Speaker 4: to you. That is powerful. And so my hope would
Speaker 4: be to build a bridge to people who especially who
Speaker 4: feel like they're outside the church or outside the wall
Speaker 4: of God's love.
Speaker 1: And Pastor Levi, for people who don't know your full story.
Speaker 1: You have a son, you have four beautiful daughters, Olivia, Daisy, Clover,
Speaker 1: and Lenya who passed away, and we talked to you
Speaker 1: about her passing in the books you have written since
Speaker 1: then for children and for adults to get through grief.
Speaker 2: But did you go into a place of why me?
Speaker 1: I mean, the passing of a child I think is
Speaker 1: probably the worst thing any of us could imagine happening.
Speaker 1: But anyone else who's gone through something terrible or awful
Speaker 1: or unfair or unjust have often said those words, why me?
Speaker 1: This isn't fair, and they question their faith and they
Speaker 1: question their reason for living. Oftentimes, how did you get
Speaker 1: through that? And what do you counsel to people?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I loved when we got to talk about Lenya
Speaker 4: because it was her that allowed us to meet. I
Speaker 4: wouldn't know you two if it wasn't for Lenya her
Speaker 4: going to heaven prompted the writing of Roar Like a Lion,
Speaker 4: which is what I was on GMA three promoting, And
Speaker 4: you guys were so sweet and you were so obviously
Speaker 4: impacted by her story, her life. She was five years old.
Speaker 4: She had an asthma attack five days before Christmas. She
Speaker 4: died in my arms while I was doing CPR, and
Speaker 4: that night we were able to make the incredibly difficult
Speaker 4: but important decision to give her corneas and her heart
Speaker 4: valves to an organ transplant organization, and they took her
Speaker 4: corneas and they gave them to two blind people, and
Speaker 4: we found out later those two blind people received site.
Speaker 4: And that's the metaphor of the book through the eyes
Speaker 4: of a Lion, because her nickname was Lenda Lyon, and
Speaker 4: so of course when that happened, and that was thirteen
Speaker 4: years ago, so I've had a lot of chance to
Speaker 4: grieve and heal my family and I and we miss
Speaker 4: her every day when I drive, I drove by her
Speaker 4: grave coming to today, and I miss her, but I'm
Speaker 4: also looking forward to her because the Bible says in
Speaker 4: my father's house are many mansions, and I go to
Speaker 4: prepare a place for you, and what ultimately Christianity stands
Speaker 4: on is not a set of teachings, but it's the
Speaker 4: resurrection of Jesus from the dead, and he promises that
Speaker 4: because of his resurrection, we all will share in that
Speaker 4: resurrection life. And so Lenya is not thirteen years in
Speaker 4: my rearview mirror. Every day as I age and grow,
Speaker 4: I'm getting closer to her because she's in my future,
Speaker 4: not just my past, because of Jesus. And so for me,
Speaker 4: I want to share that with as many people as
Speaker 4: I can. And that's what through the Eyes of a
Speaker 4: Lion is about. It's facing incredible pain but finding incredible power. Right.
Speaker 4: It's also roar like a lion, helping kids process grief.
Speaker 4: And so even though there was definitely sad moments, low moments,
Speaker 4: grief is powerful and you have to let it run
Speaker 4: its course. And so I would have I would run
Speaker 4: the gamut of anger and bargain and all of those
Speaker 4: different things by lunchtime, but there wasn't as much. Why
Speaker 4: I think the anger and all those things, I think
Speaker 4: God just met me where I was as I was
Speaker 4: honest with him of what I was facing, and I
Speaker 4: think what God kind of told me was even if
Speaker 4: you knew why, it wouldn't help you. This is going
Speaker 4: to be hard no matter what. But I'm with you,
Speaker 4: and Linya's with me, and I found great comfort. Especially
Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys have watched The Chosen
Speaker 4: the Betrayal of Jesus on episodes of TV.
Speaker 2: We haven't seen it. We haven't seen it.
Speaker 4: You have to watch it. It's incredible. It's five there's
Speaker 4: five seasons. It walks you through the Gospels and it's
Speaker 4: portrayed on screen beautifully. Jonathan Rumy And there's an episode
Speaker 4: where Jesus is hanging out with little kids, and the
Speaker 4: Bible says little kids loved to be around Jesus, and
Speaker 4: the disciples thought they needed to show him off because
Speaker 4: they were a nuisance. But Jesus said, let the kids
Speaker 4: come to me. And when you watch in the scene,
Speaker 4: you see the tenderness and the curiosity, the whimsy. Jesus
Speaker 4: makes toys. He's a carpenter, he would make toys for
Speaker 4: little kids. It made me feel such a sense of like, Hey,
Speaker 4: my daughter's good, she's with she's with God, and I'm
Speaker 4: gonna I'm going to see her again.
Speaker 2: It's beautiful. That is so beautiful, so pastor live. How
Speaker 2: many books have you written now?
Speaker 4: Nine total. I have one unreleased book that comes out
Speaker 4: this fall. That's a book about worry and anxiety for children.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Wow, that is That is a very useful book and
Speaker 1: a very much needed book.
Speaker 2: Just the way we're all headed.
Speaker 1: We I think so many people have talked about we
Speaker 1: have more therapy available than ever before, and more drugs
Speaker 1: available than ever before, and yet the suicide rates continue
Speaker 1: to rise, depression rates continue to rise. So we very
Speaker 1: much look forward to that. And I mean you're just
Speaker 1: you're continuing your work through the written word, but also
Speaker 1: your pastoral services. You you're in Montana, but you you
Speaker 1: actually you have an online people can see you wherever
Speaker 1: they are in the world.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a what a gift. I mean, talk about
Speaker 4: a double edged sword. What you just mentioned is so true.
Speaker 4: And I think if you look back, literally the hockey
Speaker 4: stick up of anxiety and suicide and the iPhone are
Speaker 4: literally in in. You know, there's there's there's there's a
Speaker 4: negative to the technology. There's a negative to TikTok, there's
Speaker 4: a negative to YouTube. There's a pressure that comes from that.
Speaker 4: But there's also the good and for for one of
Speaker 4: the good things that I've been grateful for is every
Speaker 4: time I preach. I've you know, we have this church
Speaker 4: in Montana, but every time we preach, there's people listening
Speaker 4: in every single state and all across the world because
Speaker 4: of YouTube. And so there's the negative, but there's also
Speaker 4: the positive of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you're running again, what's you got a race
Speaker 3: on your calendar?
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, we need to run together. I'm doing it.
Speaker 4: We are staff. Every summer we do a staff run.
Speaker 4: We call it the Two Snakes Invitational because the first
Speaker 4: time we did it, we saw two snakes on the course.
Speaker 4: It's a you would love this. It's ten miles, but
Speaker 4: you gain two thousand feet of elevation in the first
Speaker 4: five and then you come down two thousand feet so
Speaker 4: down you're flying because your feet barely shuts the ground
Speaker 4: but ups the grind.
Speaker 2: Oh where is this?
Speaker 4: We do it in just outside of Whitefish for our staff.
Speaker 2: But that sounds fun.
Speaker 4: You guys got a gut here, we get a run
Speaker 4: or all come out to New York and one of
Speaker 4: the other.
Speaker 3: Right, you have takers for that run. People actually do
Speaker 3: that with you out there.
Speaker 4: Two snakes Our staff is crazy. They love it, and
Speaker 4: we bring in rental saunas and cold plunges so at
Speaker 4: the end, at the finish line, we all get in
Speaker 4: the cold plun Have you guys gotten into all that stuff.
Speaker 1: I've done a cold plunge a couple of times. Sometimes
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it can take your breath away and
Speaker 1: scare you a little bit.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's you feel great when you get out,
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 4: But managing your breath. I mean, they say that I
Speaker 4: have trouble sleeping. They say it resets your kind of
Speaker 4: rhythm for sleep, the anxiety, the grit, and also just
Speaker 4: the reminder like I can do hard things because i
Speaker 4: want to get out of the water, but I'm gonna
Speaker 4: breathe my way through. I feel like that's transferable to
Speaker 4: other areas of life.
Speaker 3: Agreed, Levitt, We are not kidding. Please, please please, when
Speaker 3: you are coming to New York, give us a heads up.
Speaker 3: We will absolutely plan a run. We'll have you in
Speaker 3: studio do the whole thing, but at the very least
Speaker 3: we'll get a run in together. You gotta let us
Speaker 3: know you got it.
Speaker 4: Last time we were training for the Two Snakes last summer,
Speaker 4: I was coming back from London and we had a
Speaker 4: two day layover in New York and just slowly working
Speaker 4: our way west by taking the time change away. We
Speaker 4: had started in South Africa and then we ended at
Speaker 4: London and New York and then Montana eventually, so each
Speaker 4: day two days like to help the time change, you know,
Speaker 4: moving that way. But I was I had when I
Speaker 4: got home, we had the two snakes. That's so my
Speaker 4: final training run was I did nine miles around Central Park.
Speaker 4: I did it was like one and a half times
Speaker 4: around it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, did you do the Harlem Hill twice?
Speaker 4: It was Father's Day? Was knowing up it was amazing.
Speaker 4: What's your favorite New York run?
Speaker 1: The West Side Highway as our jam. We love it,
Speaker 1: we love it. But I also love running over the
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge because we're really close to that, so that's
Speaker 1: really fun, and then running along Dumbo and all of that.
Speaker 1: Just looking back at Manhattan as gorgeous too. But yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a ton of beautiful places. We like Central Park.
Speaker 1: We just don't get up there that all and.
Speaker 3: We get lost in the park.
Speaker 4: We can't figure it out. Have you run the Golden
Speaker 4: Gate Bridge?
Speaker 1: I have run it, just just when I was on
Speaker 1: a work assignment my hairstylist and I ran over the
Speaker 1: bridge and back.
Speaker 2: It was I love running on bridges.
Speaker 4: That's a very mean too, Brooklyn. I've done the Golden Gate.
Speaker 4: I was like trying to think of like what other
Speaker 4: like like the I don't know if it would be safe,
Speaker 4: but like that Key West One would be fun. That
Speaker 4: Race Highway, I don't know, that would be beautiful.
Speaker 2: The Cooper River bridges. They do that in South Carolina.
Speaker 1: I ran that race before, although now it's just one bridge,
Speaker 1: I think, but I'm showing my age clearly. We need
Speaker 1: to run, we need to run together, and we would
Speaker 1: love to. In fact, even if it's when your next
Speaker 1: book comes out. You're back in New York doing your
Speaker 1: press tour, we would love to have you back in.
Speaker 1: We'd love to go on a run with you.
Speaker 4: It sounds like a day and then Monte as well.
Speaker 4: So thanks for having me on today.
Speaker 1: Oh, Pastor Levi Lasco, thank you so much for inspiring us.
Speaker 1: It was nice to talk to you more than three
Speaker 1: and a half minutes, which was our segment time on
Speaker 1: GMA three. Nice to have you to really actually get
Speaker 1: to hear you talk about just your beautiful faith and
Speaker 1: sharing it with all of us.
Speaker 2: So thank you, have a beautiful day and we will
Speaker 2: run with you soon