1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: Ball mission controlled deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: want you to know. Special announcement at the top, Folks, 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: Every day gets us a little closer to Halloween one. 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: You know longtime listeners that we are big, big fans 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: of the most wonderful time of the year, and in 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: the past we've often done something a little special. The 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: three or four or five of us have teamed up 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: with our colleagues to make spooky, mostly fictional stories. We've 16 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: had some real weird stuff. You can hear it on 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: our podcast feed right now. Um gosh. We've done that 18 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: for a number of years. But this year we, along 19 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: with some of our friends of the show, were in 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: particular working on an entire season of spooky fiction. Matt 21 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: and our pal Alex Williams got together a top notch 22 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: team of Spooksters to create the second season of Thirteen 23 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: Days of Halloween. Um, the best Spooksters, spookster Y definitely 24 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: know the best in the games. Yes, whether we're talking 25 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: about SKA band or our our teams of writers and actors. 26 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: I I don't know if Spooksters is a SKA band, 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: but god, it sounds like one, doesn't it Like the 28 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: Spooksters they cover. Yeah, there's a seventies rock band called 29 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: Spooky Tooth, which Alie thought was a real cute name. 30 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: That's cool. Yeah. I wrote a story about an evil 31 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: dentist called the Judas Tooth, and I just realized, want 32 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: to send it somewhere. Yeah, is it safe? Ben, is 33 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: it safe? It's safe? Well that's that's a story for 34 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: another day. But you're with Spoosters. I think you gotta 35 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: add like a town like the Sacramento Spooksters, because then 36 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: it feels like it could be a team. Well yeah, this, 37 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: Uh so we're onto something with this. I think, Uh 38 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: we wanted to say that you never know when will 39 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 1: make a new spooky story and stuff they don't want 40 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: you to know because uh, Noel, Matt and I put 41 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: a lot of time and attention into those things. So 42 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: we suggest that right now, while you're waiting, you check 43 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: out thirteen days. It's worth your time. But still the 44 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: Halloween spirit compels us to move ever further into the 45 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: realm of the strange, the occult, the supernatural. And today's 46 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: question is uh, today's questions a weird one? Is witchcraft 47 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: on the rise? Before before we dive in. I don't 48 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: know if I told you, guys, but I first learned 49 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: of this concept a number of years ago when someone 50 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: else on our network was telling me, Hey, spiritualism or 51 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: the idea of you know, non traditional religious beliefs is 52 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: on the rise right now. And she predicted it. Which 53 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: is the thing? The interesting thing candle? You know. Um, 54 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: she's definitely a person into candles that way. So maybe 55 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: that maybe it was, you know, one of those cursed 56 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: candles with a black flame that gives no light and 57 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: no heat. Or maybe it was just a Yankee Candle 58 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: Company candle either. I like the one of the smell 59 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: like cinnamon. I like them. They're just crazy expensive, you 60 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: know what I mean? How did candles become the twenty dollars? Uh? 61 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: You got to get on the cedar smell and just 62 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: fill your home with it, and they make them with 63 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: those with those I don't know what they call them, 64 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: the wooden wicks. Wicks. I used to have one that 65 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: smelled like leather. That's cool. I don't I've always somewhat 66 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: because I'm always eternally hungry on several levels. I hate 67 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: the ones that smell like food and feel like their betrayals, 68 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: their active betrayal. You wouldn't me into a case of 69 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: a candle, man. I would very much be into it. 70 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: But I have a problem. That's the issue. But uh 71 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: but yeah, no, Actually that's a great idea that I'm 72 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: glad you brought it up. We should make that so 73 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: so motive be as they say, here are the facts. 74 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: So we're talking about what is loosely called witchcraft, and 75 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: maybe we can talk a little bit about the stereotypical 76 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: images of which is like, when I hear the term, 77 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: I am imediately think of like a black clad crone 78 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: with the pointed brimmed hats and flying across the night 79 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: sky to conduct a black mass cursing crops. You know, 80 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: I think of the Witch from the excellent horror film 81 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: The Witch a k a. The Witch to these but 82 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: it's hard, too hard to say like that. Yeah, and 83 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: in that version of uh A, which if I'm not mistaken, 84 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: flies with the the broomy part of the broom facing forward. 85 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: I believe you might. I believe you might be correct 86 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: in that in that trope there's several different um, several 87 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: different things that might be used to help one fly, 88 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: like a mortar and pestle. That's it's not always a 89 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: broom and uh it's weird because when we're thinking of 90 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: these stereotypes, which is what they are, which is what 91 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: they are, we're also we're also wrapped up in ideas 92 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: of real life historical events, terrible terrible things like the 93 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: horrors of the Inquisition or the Salem witch trials, and 94 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: they've inspired countless works of film, fiction and of course podcast. 95 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: But one thing it was really important to us when 96 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: we started exploring this idea was to ask ourselves, what 97 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: about all the misconceptions that get wrapped up in that, 98 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, so we have to start with the basics, 99 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: like what what exactly do people mean when they say 100 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: so and so is a witch? Well, like the very 101 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,679 Speaker 1: etymology of the word itself, the true history of what's 102 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: now known as this thing called witchcraft is pretty unclear 103 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: UM and is largely up to interpretation UM. In the 104 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: modern day. It all depends on who you talk to, 105 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: and nowadays what could be seen as a very damaging 106 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: stereotype of a practitioner of magic with a c k 107 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: um or perhaps what might be referred to as the 108 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: black arts uh, specifically by folks who maybe lean in 109 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: a more religious direction. UM. This whole construct really is 110 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: is a very Christian invention um. But the etymology of 111 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: the current word has its roots in Old English, specifically 112 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: Low German vica um for a magician who is of 113 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: a woman UM a sorceress also known as a sorceress 114 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: wicca for the male version also Low German that would 115 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: be referred to as a vican a k A to 116 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: use witchcraft, or a vica which could be could be 117 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: seen as maybe something more along the lines of a 118 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: fortune teller or a soothsayer, someone who has the gift 119 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: of sight. Did anyone else hear the word vicar vicar 120 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: exactly exactly? Ever? I I always thought that was funny too. 121 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: It's It is true that the exact etymology is unclear, 122 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: but historians generally agree that if you if you trace 123 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: it back, you dive through whatever historical records exist, you 124 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: will see that there are several closely related words that 125 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: describe practices like soothsaying or divination or sorcery, and they 126 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: described names or terms for those suspected of practicing it. 127 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: And this is not all obviously, this is not all 128 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: quote unquote like bad or evil stuff. You know, there's 129 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: a left hand path, there's a right hand path. We're 130 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: talking about a lot of traditional medicine, right We're talking 131 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: about a lot of healing techniques and a lot of 132 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: things like how do we predict the passage of the 133 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: crops in the seasons? And this I love that we're 134 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: pointing out that what is called witchcraft has been defined 135 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: by people outside of these practices for for a while. 136 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: Like the concept and the fear of some magically powered 137 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: antagonists with some interconnection to forces beyond those mortal civilizations 138 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: is way way older than Christianity. So it's it's somewhat 139 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: misleading to say that the the idea of witchcraft is 140 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: a Christian invention. They certainly ran with it and used 141 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: as a rationalization to do terrible, terrible things. But witches 142 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: were soothsayers or you know, practitioners of occult arts exist 143 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: in the most ancient uh stories of humanity. They've been 144 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: there from the jump, even before spies. For anybody who 145 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: listened to that previous episode. Sure, I mean dating is 146 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: far back, uh literarily speaking in terms of what we 147 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: have in the written record, as Homer's the Odyssey, way 148 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: back from eight hundred b C, with the character of 149 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: a searcy who would have been, you know, a very 150 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: important figure in ancient Greek culture, referred to as an oracle, 151 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: someone who would often have to be consulted before a 152 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: you know, a quest of some kind or some sort 153 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: of very important life kind of journey, right and just so, 154 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: and even in like ancient Roman law, there is a 155 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: ton of commentary about what they call illicit magic, meaning 156 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: that some stuff was just sort of expected and normalized 157 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: by society, by yeah, by the government of the time. 158 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: And so, of course spiritual practitioners, that's the word we're 159 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: going to go with instead of which is spiritual practitioners 160 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: across the planet had their own sets of beliefs, practices, 161 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: and standings in society. Sometimes you know, they would be 162 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: revered as holy figures with access to higher planes of knowledge. 163 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: And then sometimes they be vilified. But wherever you find 164 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: early human civilization, you'll find people that later organizations like 165 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: the Inquisition would describe as witches because they were doing 166 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: something different, unorthodox or unexpected. And we had earlier in 167 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 1: the course of our are diving into this episode, we 168 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: had reached out to content act, some friends of ours, 169 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: some colleagues who do practice things that would generally be 170 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: described a mainstream society as magic. Yes, several different classes 171 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: of magic. One person we spoke with was I believe 172 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: self described as a chaos magician. I think that that's correct. Um. 173 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: And then another person who perhaps would classify it more 174 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: as spiritualism with the dabbling in witchcraft, Um, it's it's 175 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: very interesting to speak with people who do attempt to 176 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: actually carry out rituals of some sort. We learned a 177 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,239 Speaker 1: ton I think, Ben, Yeah, we did, and these were 178 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: these were important things. We dove into a conversation about 179 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: the history of various practices. Uh, we dove into the 180 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: controversies or contradictions between some practices, and we we asked 181 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: some stuff that I think we will also find turns 182 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: up in in later episodes if we do something on 183 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, thought forms or tulpa or that the idea 184 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: of cursed objects. Right, So yeah, I don't want to 185 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: get into it too deeply at this point, maybe in 186 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: the episode, but the concept of going in inwardly, traveling inwardly, 187 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: that's a weird way to say it, but to to 188 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: have an effect in the outward space and in the 189 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: actual physical plane was a really cool concept. And it 190 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: matches up so much with a lot of spiritual list beliefs, 191 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: like non dogmatic religious belief that's going on right now. Yeah, 192 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: and also it made my midnight to hear here these 193 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: folks agree with our pal Damien Patrick williams earlier description 194 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: of magic. He said weaponized psychology. That is huge, very 195 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: articulate way to depick that. Yeah, and so the modern 196 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote which or magic practitioner. We have to define 197 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: what that is before we figure out whether or not 198 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: witchcraft is on the rise. And there are conspiracy theories 199 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: at play here. There are people and institutions who believe 200 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: that there is an organized, systemic attempt to turn people 201 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: away from Christianity or to use infernal powers for worldly gain. 202 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: And that's a that's an idea that happens in you know, 203 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: the so called Satanic panic. It's an idea that is 204 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: always kind of around and it all a lot of 205 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: it dates back to the Christian Church's attempt to stamp 206 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: out what it saws heresy, anything it saws spiritual competition, 207 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: including you know, not just like the Cather's not just 208 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: someone who had a different take on monotheism, but anything 209 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: that was from a pre existing religion, native beliefs, ancestor worship, animism, 210 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: all that stuff. Like imagine we're a band of early 211 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: Christian explorers. We would have to get into how early. 212 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: But we have ventured into this new land, deep in 213 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: uh the primeval forest, right deep deep into the word 214 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: me too, man, deep into a pre Christian area of 215 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: what would be Germany today or something. And when we're there, 216 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: we we stumble upon like a small village and they 217 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: are clearly like ritualistically killing a bear or a dog 218 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: or a goat or something. And our first reaction is 219 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: going to be, this isn't I don't think this is 220 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: our thing, guys. I think these I think they're doing 221 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: something different, and then it's only a matter of time 222 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: before someone else or crew goes. I agree, and I 223 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: think it's bad and then usually the person leading the 224 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: group or is you're the person that controls the religious 225 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: dogma on your side. Yeah, we have a priest who 226 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: says and it's bad. Yeah. Well, and and interestingly, I 227 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: mean this would be what would be more considered to 228 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: be a pagan ritual, which, uh, you know, many of 229 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: the Christian holidays that we celebrate have roots in paganism, 230 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: which really can just be a stand in for anything 231 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: that is not the main thing that we believe. We 232 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: pick and choose so much, I say, the royal we 233 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: I guess you know. Uh, organized religion often picks and 234 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: chooses from other cultures and then tries to erase the original. 235 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: Uh in many cases. Yeah, shout out Council of Nicea. 236 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: Let's hear it for him. You know. Uh, you might 237 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: might not know which it and you might not agree 238 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: with it, but they did make an impact on history 239 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: that continues today anyhow. Yeah, Yeah, I think it's absolutely true. 240 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: And we also to the point about picking and choosing. Um, 241 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: we also see a lot of religious syncretism. It's what 242 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: happens anytime two different cultures encounter one another. We had 243 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: a pretty interesting conversation about Santa Claus earlier. This is 244 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: what we're alluding to. Uh, there's one figure from the 245 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: Western Alps that has a couple of different names. You'll see. 246 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: You'll see it called Bluffuna or Pekta or Berta. And 247 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: this was get this a spirit associated with winter who 248 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: is known for punishing violations of social morays and rewarding 249 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: good actions. She was also portrayed as an older woman. 250 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: She represented cold and winter. And when folks were diving 251 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: into you know, like the history of what would be 252 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: described as witchcraft, they said, this figure, this pre Christian figure, 253 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: seems to have a lot in common with stereotypes of witches. 254 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: And then also Santa Claus, who is no mega level 255 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: mutant in the Marvel universe, but also does a lot 256 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: of does a lot of things that would be described 257 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: as witchcraft. Right, Yeah, can you know, presumably change shape 258 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: to go from being a quite portly gentleman to you know, 259 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: inexplicably sliding down a very narrow brick chimney. Has power 260 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: over the Faye, the elves and the reindeers are kind 261 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: of like familiars or companion spirits speaks every language as 262 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: we play. It was the whole conversation. Somehow speaks every 263 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: language and can exist in every shopping mall across the planet, 264 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: the ones that are still open, yes, and especially the 265 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: ones that are abandoned. I'm telling you, I think, I think, 266 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 1: I think our spooky story this year is like an 267 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: end of the year, you know, very Christmas thing. But 268 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: we also have to remember that even as Christianity became 269 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 1: more prevalent, and this is this is something you see 270 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: a lot of writing about this occurring in Western Europe. 271 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: But it's tale as old as time, right, or tale 272 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: as old as Christianity. As Christianity was expanding across the world, 273 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: Christians were still stumbling across things they couldn't explain, Remnants 274 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: of those who came before, standing stones, mounds in the ground. 275 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: You know, where did this coup? Why would someone go 276 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: to the trouble of building this? And they would also 277 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: strange looking caves were really big al coves and things 278 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, and then you would you would have 279 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: the locals would be familiar with this would be normalized. 280 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: They might even consider themselves followers of some branch of religion, right, 281 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: some branch of Christianity. And this is not the dog 282 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: on Christians. This is just a thing that happened pretty often. 283 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: The locals who lived there would say, you know, oh, 284 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: yes we are, we are loyal followers of Christianity and 285 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,959 Speaker 1: there's always been so, but you have to watch out 286 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: for that those standing stones. You shouldn't go there when 287 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: the stars in the moon or in a certain alignment, uh, 288 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, because of the ghost or the demons, and 289 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: never disturbed the cairn. Is that how you say it? Yeah? 290 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: Or even in like you know, very very very old 291 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 1: religious structures like cathedrals and whatnot, they have, you know, 292 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: these gargoyles that are essentially demonic creatures that that one 293 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: could associate with like being a familiar of a witch 294 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: or something, but they're also kind of co opted and 295 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: meant to protect the structure and and you know those 296 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: within from those very evil spirits. Yeah, it's a it's 297 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: a conversation. And if you are these if if you 298 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: are traveling with us are hypothetical band of early Christian wanderers, 299 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: and you see this stuff that really freaks you out, 300 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: then you can imagine it doesn't really help when the 301 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: locals also say there are a couple of folks in 302 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: town who can actually work with these creatures, and you know, 303 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: try to stay on their good side. What are we 304 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: talking about. We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor, 305 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: we are back and we're going to jump in the 306 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: images you may have swirling around your head when the 307 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: words witch or witchcraft are uttered, what do you see? 308 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,719 Speaker 1: Why do you see it? What are what are the 309 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: iconic images that are associated with that? Well, if we're 310 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: jumping through time, we're now in the fifteen nineties, which 311 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: is the last leg of Queen Elizabeth the First Rain, 312 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: and in England at that time, the concept of a 313 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: which the image people's minds of a which was pretty 314 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: much crystallized. It's the hag image that we've already mentioned. 315 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: Um perhaps a poor woman, maybe lame in some way 316 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: with her physical characteristics, perhaps blind in one eye or 317 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: a cloudy eye, something's wrong with it. Um perhaps gets 318 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: very angry, very easily, and wants to enact revenge in 319 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: some way. And the concept you'll see it in an 320 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: old old like story tales about a witch that something 321 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: small happens to her and no matter how slight that 322 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: infraction is, she will like curse the ever loving, like 323 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: the Rapunzel story, where I believe the infraction was stealing 324 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: a cabbage from the witch's garden to feed a hungry 325 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: pregnant woman. Um. And it involved I believe in you know, 326 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: infant theft and blinding the you know, the husband and 327 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: with a you know, cursed briar patch of signs serious 328 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: you know, scorched earth kind of retribution there. Well, in 329 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: defense of some which is while they might overreact, they 330 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: are also I think stories in stories responding to persecution 331 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: from the community where their their their existence itself is taboo. 332 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: Hansel and Gretel were vandalizing our house. Yes, you're right, 333 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: and that that is so important a reaction, uh, to 334 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: being mistreated within society. Seriously, that is so important to 335 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: this whole topic, this whole episode. Yeah, and this and 336 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: what we're talking about here too is is real. This 337 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: idea of a scorched earth policy. Um, this idea of 338 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: very vengeful individuals was important for the powers that be 339 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: at the time in Western Europe because they needed a rationale, right, 340 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: they needed a reason to persecute these people to such 341 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: an extreme degree, and they also were quarreling with their 342 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: own misogyny pretty often laws of the time that you 343 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: were just describing that had been sort of updated two 344 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: include the opinions of demonologists, and a lot of these 345 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: demonologists said, you know what, the idea that and this 346 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: is they're thinking, not ours, the idea that these old 347 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: women can do magic spitting in the face of God. 348 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: They're not powerful enough for that. They're all they're women. 349 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: It's the devil. They're they're working for the devil. And uh, 350 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: if they have a cat, the cats in on it 351 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: and being pretty basic with it. You're you're right, You're 352 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: right on the money though. The thinking that was occurring there, 353 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: and unfortunately that's why people like Professor Diane Purkis estimates 354 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: some thirty thousand to sixty thousand people may have died 355 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: as a result of these which hunts. So there's a 356 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: lot of history, a lot of blood. Not to mention 357 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: that to this day, animal shelters won't adopt out black 358 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: cats around Halloween because they're so often mistreated because of 359 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: that stereotype of the black cat being somehow associated with 360 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: um which is and and the occult. Yeah, it's a 361 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: true story. I mean, history is still with us. Faulkner 362 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: was right when he said the past isn't past. So yeah, 363 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: can I do a quick plug just really fast. If 364 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: you're interested in which trials, specifically the ones that occurred 365 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: in Salem, Massachusetts, please check out Unobscured Season one. It's 366 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: a podcast. You will love it. It's really good, heard 367 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: of it quite good. And this also the the events 368 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: in Salem are are also likewise wrapped up in the 369 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: concept of the quote unquote magic which or practitioner, and 370 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: many of the practices that at that time we're associated 371 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: with witchcraft are around today in some form. As a 372 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: matter of fact, I if you look around, you will 373 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: see that many, many, many people nowadays may self identify 374 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: as witches or wickens or practitioners of some associated belief system. It's, 375 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: of course it's unfair to lump all of them together 376 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: in a single group. And there are a lot of 377 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: people who might not, say might not consider themselves a 378 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: quote unquote which or a sorcerer some of some kind, 379 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: but they still engage in practices, either recreationally, nostalgically, maybe 380 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: it's something in their family that you do, or with 381 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: serious intention. And those those practices, while they may not 382 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: be called magic, definitely descend from earlier practices associated with witchcraft. 383 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, as you're listening today, conspiracy realists, 384 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: some of us may be thinking, oh, that's right, that's like, 385 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: especially if you're in the South, where the Southern US, 386 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: where full command magic is a very very old thing 387 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: that existed in step with organized religion. We might have 388 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: just unlocked a memory for you. And if so, we'd 389 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: love we'd love to hear it. We're pretty sure you're 390 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: out there. Because however defined, however murky the origins, there 391 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: is one thing for sure, witchcraft is actually on the rise. 392 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. Yeah, it's true. I mean, 393 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: however you define witchcraft, it appears that it and other 394 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: associated practices are in fact rising um in the United States. Uh. 395 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: It's something that's a little bit tough to measure, um, 396 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: given that there are so many different things wrapped up 397 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: in this, and that the term itself is so loaded. Uh. 398 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: It's been used as a term of abuse in the past. 399 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: It's one of these things that then been sort of 400 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: taken back um. And it's just a very catch all 401 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: kind of terms. So it does make it a little 402 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: tough to kind of parse out what all is included 403 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: under that kind of umbrella. But one way to get 404 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 1: a good sense of this kind of a snapshot to 405 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: go to the most well defined sources um that remained 406 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: largely the same as as they have historically. We've already 407 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: mentioned Wickanum or pagan practitioners. Yeah, this is fascinating because 408 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna see a pattern that's similar to stories of 409 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: the Illuminati. Honestly, the what's called the wickan faith grew 410 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: out of the writings of a guy named Gerald Gardner. 411 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: He was a customs officer in a nineteen fifty four 412 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: He wrote a book called Witchcraft Today, and it talked 413 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: about his experience in a coven and according to other 414 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: members of the coven, their tenants and values were allegedly 415 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: passed out all the way down from the Middle Ages. 416 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: Scholars would later conclude that maybe some of that was 417 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: based in fact, but Gardner was also probably styling on 418 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: it a lot, inventing, embellishing. Uh. And we and the 419 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: reason I say it's similar to the Illuminati, as you'll 420 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: see a lot of secret society groups who claim an 421 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 1: ancient lineage. Then there's no real way to prove or 422 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: disprove it. It's it's important here to just the conversation 423 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: we were having the other day with the practitioners been 424 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: the concept of wicca and what that was, And we're 425 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: going back to the nineteen fifties popularization of that term 426 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: as that thing that was written about by this guy Gardner. Uh, 427 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: but then also taking it back to the etymology of 428 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: right vicing vica and all those vicar um. It's not 429 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: it's not all the same thing wrapped up together. This 430 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,479 Speaker 1: thing that's describing Gardner's book is his version right, Like, 431 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: this is what we're saying. So, I guess it was 432 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,479 Speaker 1: just difficult for me to wrap my head around that 433 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: concept initially that this wasn't wicka. The thing that's described 434 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: in his book, isn't the thing that goes all the 435 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: way back that would be described as witchcraft. Sure, I 436 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: mean I always associate Wicko with um is you know, 437 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: communion with nature, UM, kind of returning to that sort 438 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: of closeness with the earth than in the roots of 439 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: you know, creation and all of that UM. And obviously 440 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: it's it's more than that, but that's just, you know, 441 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: as sort of an outsider, that's what I've always associated 442 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: with in a very positive light. Yeah, these practices are 443 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: not monolithic and should not be treated as such. What's 444 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: fascinating and important for us about paganism or the Wiccan 445 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: practice is that we have the most we being outside 446 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: civilization and have the most information on that. So when 447 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: you hear claims that witchcraft, however defined, is on the rise, uh, 448 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: those claims are Those claims are based on several things, 449 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: like several noticeable trends, But the hard numbers that you're 450 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: going to find are usually going to be from self 451 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: reporting polls of people who listed their religious identification or 452 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: affiliation as paganism or Wiccan. Uh In the Pew Research 453 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: Center said that the US adult population of Pagans and 454 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: Wigans was about seven thirty thousand. That's on par with 455 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: the number of people who are unitarians, and then later 456 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: this equated to later we saw this number go up 457 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: to about point four percent of Americans, which sounds very 458 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: small and too you realize that it's around one to 459 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: one point five million people identified either as Wiccan or pagan. 460 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: And again this is just one among many groups and 461 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: not all, which is hashtag not all witches. But it's 462 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: fair to say most people are doing these practices may 463 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: not consider themselves specifically pagan or Wiccan. They could have 464 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: any number of aims. They can specialize in certain spells, 465 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: specialized in certain goals. There's a New York Times article 466 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: I'd like to drive Everybody's attention to came out a 467 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: couple of years back by Jessica Bennett called when did 468 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: Everybody Become a Witch? And and the and the subtitle 469 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: is which parties which protest? And a bevy of new 470 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: books we have reached peak? Which which? Which is? Which? 471 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: I know? So this is uh, this is interesting because 472 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: you will see things, like the author points out, you 473 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: might see your co workers, uh, using tarot cards, doing 474 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: readings on their lunch breaks. You might have somebody say, hey, 475 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: you join us together. We're gonna have a ceremony that's 476 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: aimed at career success. There are people are like which 477 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: influencers on Instagram, you know, people in the world of 478 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: podcasting have described themselves as which is there's performance art. 479 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: It goes on and on. And let's not forget too. 480 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: I mean, for for many of this is very much 481 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: a religion, right. It's not just a a fashion statement, 482 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: you know. It really is a set of beliefs and 483 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: and something that is adhered to in a very similar 484 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: way to the rituals of Catholicism or Christianity or or 485 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, Buddhism. Yeah, I I it's true. But I 486 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: think the mass popularization you can trace it back to 487 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: one thing. I think is the magic, the gathering. Its magic, 488 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: the gathering. I wish it's it's the craft. That's that's yeah, 489 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: because our whole generation, I don't know whatever, I it 490 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: was so very popular where I was, you're you're you're, 491 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: you're right, you're right. But that that that couldn't account 492 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: for the current uptick though. I mean just like maybe 493 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: they're like, you know, what's the word the main streaming 494 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: of it, uh in like the zeit guys, certainly that 495 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: would have played a hand in it. I think it's 496 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: I think they occur concurrently. I think the craft is 497 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: a symptom of a larger thing. And when I say symptom, 498 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: I don't mean to imply that it's it's something bad. 499 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: There's another one I want to point out. While we're 500 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: with Pew Research. Later in to seventeen, they went back 501 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: and they said, well, let's look at just the idea 502 00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: of New Age beliefs, and they found that sixty percent 503 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: of people living in the US identify with at least one, 504 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: if not more, of the of the following beliefs psychics, 505 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: psychic powers, astrology, the presence of spiritual energy inside and 506 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: animate objects, reincarnation uh. And also a more more than 507 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: a quarter of people in the US say they think 508 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: of themselves as spiritual but not religious. In an increasingly 509 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: secular society, you can still have these beliefs that don't 510 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: match religion. You might not consider yourself religious, but you can. 511 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: You can have your you can have your potion and 512 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: drink it too. I guess is the idea sort of 513 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: a best of both worlds thing. And in many ways, sociologically, 514 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: if you just look at the sociological trends and kind 515 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: of the cause effect uh, and you put all the 516 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: ideas of magical belief to one side. Identifying in this 517 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: way could also be seen as an active protest right, 518 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: self selecting to say I'm a witch fight the power, right. 519 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: That's that's part and parcel of it. Let's let's actually 520 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: pause for a word from our own familiars, and then 521 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: we'll we'll return with maybe a specific example of something 522 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: like that, and we're back. Um and uh. To Ben's 523 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: point before the break, Cherwell dot org has a fantastic 524 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 1: example of describing how which is are uniting to fight 525 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:43,240 Speaker 1: for political goals, for political aims, specifically against uh Donald Trump, 526 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: former President Donald Trump. Yes, from this article there in Cherwell, 527 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,479 Speaker 1: I guess I'll read just part of a quote here. 528 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: It says, on the evening of Donald Trump's inauguration, a 529 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: witchcraft community called quote magic Resistance formed within the United States, 530 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: and it has continued to meet throughout his presidency. So 531 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: this was written um prior to a new president coming 532 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: into office. The group performed binding spells and they gathered 533 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: together tarot cards, feathers, and candles, amongst other items, alongside 534 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: unflattering photographs of the president. This ritual has performed each 535 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: waning crescent moon, so that uh, the president's malignant works 536 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: may quote fail utterly. Okay, yeah, there, So this is 537 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: this reminds me of the attempts by the Vatican exorcist 538 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: amor to to remotely exercise people as in a way 539 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: that was a political protest, and in this in this 540 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: case it seems to be very much the same. The 541 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: group performed their final when you call them at their 542 00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: final binding on January twelve, and there have been similar 543 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: protests on all sides of the political spectrum across the globe, 544 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,760 Speaker 1: and sometimes they are more symbolics. Sometimes the people doing 545 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 1: these things purposely think of it as performance art. Sure, 546 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: it reminds me of in the sixties a group in UM, 547 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: San Francisco, believe called the Yippies UM, led by Kenneth Anger. 548 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: I want to say it was like a kind of 549 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: an experimental filmmaker and activist UM. They did a sort 550 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: of happening UM where they attempted to levitate the pentagon 551 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: like two inches UM, you know, again purportedly using witchcraft. 552 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: But it really was, like you said, been more of 553 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: an active protest and kind of a goof, you know, 554 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: to get the squares riled up. You know. Well they 555 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: don't tell you, guys, is that it worked one centimeter proven, 556 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: But you know, witchcraft to that end, witchcraft can so 557 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: kind of be seen as as a fashion thing, like 558 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: an aesthetic quality in and of itself for for its 559 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: own enjoyment. In that way, that side of it has 560 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: certainly seen a renaissance UM, leading to a lot more 561 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: mainstream curiosity around it. Yeah, especially you know, if you 562 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: live in a country where you're not going to get 563 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 1: burned at the stake or executed for for holding those 564 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: beliefs or participating those practices. I do want to point 565 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: out maybe this this is an episode for the future. Uh, 566 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: there are many areas of the world right now where 567 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: people are persecuted or accused of witchcraft. We even a 568 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: few years ago talked about the danger that's posed in 569 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: some in some countries to children who have Albanism because 570 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: their bodies are considered powerful magical relics or body parts. 571 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: So this is this is real, even if it can 572 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: even if it seems like inquisitions and which hunts were 573 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: hundreds of years ago, there's still violence associated with this 574 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: kind of persecution. And not to put it in the 575 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,320 Speaker 1: same basket at all, but I think I've been pretty 576 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 1: vocal about my ex wife, who I'm very close with, UM, 577 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: you know, considers herself wakened and and does these kind 578 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: of rituals and someone's very important to her. And while 579 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: my daughter doesn't, our daughter doesn't like necessarily identify like that, UM, 580 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: she does appreciate that aspect of her mom's life and 581 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: and her beliefs, and she definitely has co opted some 582 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: of the more aesthetic qualities of it, like she likes 583 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: to wear, you know, dark kind of goth type clothing 584 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 1: and um, you know, pentagrams and upside down crosses and 585 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: things like that. But to her it is more of 586 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: like an aesthetic thing. But there are some kind of 587 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: deep dudes at her middle school that you know, will 588 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: kind of act call her a devil worshiper and um, 589 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, kind of bully her about this. So you know, 590 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: it's definitely still something hangs around, you know, that that stigma. Yeah, 591 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: this this is interesting. So I looked at a couple 592 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: of different ways to answer the question, is witchcraft on 593 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: the rise? First problem is how to define it. It's 594 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 1: been defined by it's like self appointed enemies. It's a 595 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: little bit complicated to get hard numbers because specifically, the 596 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: US government is real gun shy about collecting detailed religious 597 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 1: information because this country has something I very much support 598 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: called the separation of Church and State, and their organizations 599 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: like Pew that have tried to fill in that data gap. 600 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: And because of that, when they're asking about which is, 601 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: they're primarily asking about WICCA because it's the easiest to trace, 602 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,879 Speaker 1: the easiest to define. And Trinity College in Connecticut ran 603 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,439 Speaker 1: three large, very detailed surveys of religion. They showed that 604 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: there was tremendous growth from two thousand and eight from 605 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: people identifying as Wickans. Uh. This this number is still 606 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: smaller than those numbers we discussed earlier. So the thing 607 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: is actually happening. There is a trend, it is real, 608 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: it's traceable, it's proven. Yes, And we also know that 609 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: you probably heard the phrase of the place Trinity College 610 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: and thought that sounds a little Christian to me, Um, Like, 611 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 1: is there a reason why they're interested in WICCA. It 612 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: was a larger study, Like Ben said, it wasn't just 613 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 1: I don't I don't think the motivation was to call 614 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: out those who identify as wiccan. Yeah, it wasn't to 615 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 1: improve the methodology of witch hunters. That's but the but 616 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: the thing that's uh, the thing that we need to 617 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 1: realize about this is that there is um an active 618 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,760 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory, right, that there is a grand war between 619 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: heaven in Hell with humans as heros and ponds. Uh. 620 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: And so some some of the fears about the growth 621 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: or the mainstreaming of these practices, uh go back to 622 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 1: that idea. But there is an alternative answer. I don't 623 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: want to bust this as a conspiracy theory. I just 624 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: think it's really interesting to note that when we ask 625 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: why is witchcraft on the rise, we're talking about sociology. 626 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 1: There's a great article from the Atlantic where Bianca Bosker 627 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: argues that not only is this that's we're excited the 628 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: same suspicion. Not only is witchcraft on the rise now, 629 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: but it has waxed and waned and risen and popularity 630 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: cyclically across culture and across time. And Bosker traces it 631 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: to times of social uncertainty, you know, plummeting of trust 632 00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:01,279 Speaker 1: in establishment ideas. What what's that old list? We used 633 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: to have this old list that would whip out of 634 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: things that are have a higher rating than Congress, And 635 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: like there there, I think there were a couple of 636 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: STDs that had a higher approval rating than Congress. So 637 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,879 Speaker 1: that's when we get rid of some STDs. It's really 638 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: hard to get rid of Congress. Yeah, but that's that's 639 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: the idea. Like regardless of regardless of your own I guess, 640 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: personal ideologies or beliefs, many people are increasingly jaded with 641 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 1: what they see as the establishment for one reason or another. 642 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: And people have asked, well, not not just in this 643 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: current age. But in the past people have asked valid question, 644 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: who do these institutions actually serve? Right, and check out 645 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: our lobbying episode by the way. But but it's fascinating, 646 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: she notes, this isn't the first time it's happened. No no, no, no, 647 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,839 Speaker 1: no no. Um. But we'll read a quote here. This 648 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: is again from the Atlantic article from Bianca boscar Uh. 649 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: She says quote in the nineteenth century, as transcendentalism and 650 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 1: the women's suffrage movement took hold, which has enjoyed the 651 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,840 Speaker 1: beginnings of a rebranding from wicked devil worshippers. Too. Intuitive Wise, 652 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: women Woodstock in second wave feminism were a boon for witches, 653 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 1: whose popularity spiked again following the Anita Hill hearings in 654 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties and again after Donald Trump's election and 655 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: alongside the hashtag the me too movement, And we in 656 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: our conversation with the practitioners been this was a this 657 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: is a major topic just about why we see these 658 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: trends and then taking those trends back to kind of 659 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: the origins of some of these practices, when there's always 660 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:49,240 Speaker 1: been an established not always in many parts of the world, 661 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: for most of the time there has been an established 662 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: patriarchy that defines essentially what a woman can and cannot do. 663 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: And this was a way to have power and to 664 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,319 Speaker 1: fight back, even if it's perceived in the eyes of those, uh, 665 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: those people who are attempting to control you and you 666 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 1: say intuitive wise women, to me, that's full circle back 667 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: to the oracle type figure where they were like sanctioned 668 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: by the state and respected and treated with um reverence 669 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: because they served, like, you know, a function in that society. Um. 670 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 1: So it does kind of interestingly feel like we've kind 671 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: of gone full circle back to that way of looking 672 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: at things. I mean, not like, you know, across the board, 673 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: but um it does seem like the mainstream is starting 674 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 1: to catch up to that. And it makes sense from 675 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: a sociological perspective. Again, if the ordinary, mundane, normal avenues 676 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:47,839 Speaker 1: of power and enfranchisement are failing, there is some sort 677 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 1: of logic in giving alternative approaches a shot, is it 678 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: there not? I mean, no matter how unorthodox those alternative 679 00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: approaches might sound, the trends seemed to indicate that modern witchcraft. 680 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: This is another point Bosker makes, has drawn in more 681 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: women or female identifying people than men as well as 682 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: many people of color and individuals who are queer or transgender, 683 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:19,399 Speaker 1: which of course is like a gender agnostic kind of description. Right, 684 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,880 Speaker 1: It's like pilot. Anybody can be a pilot. And on 685 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: the flip side, it's in an arguable reality that throughout history, 686 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 1: a lot of those witch hunts, a lot of those 687 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: crackdowns were really meant to be crackdowns on women. So 688 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: in a way, just identifying oneself as a witch can 689 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: for some be a form of activism. And don't even 690 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 1: get us started with don't even get started with the 691 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 1: conflicts of interest in the inquisition. You know, some of 692 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 1: those folks they got a cut of the estate if 693 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 1: the case went through. So yeah, So with all of 694 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: this what we've learned today, you can see why there 695 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: may be a growing interest, a continually growing interest right 696 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: now in witchcraft, whatever that is, and however it's defined 697 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 1: by you when you're thinking about it in your mind. Um, 698 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about our conversation 699 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 1: a little more, Ben, just in what people should do 700 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: if they're interested in this stuff. One thing I personally 701 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: did in preparation for this, and and just for my 702 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 1: own self, was to visit a local bookstore that offers 703 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: you know, uh, they will sell you books on the 704 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:39,560 Speaker 1: history and practice of many different types of magic and 705 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: witchcraft and other things like that spiritualist movement things. And 706 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 1: I just talk to some people that I was talking 707 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,879 Speaker 1: to several people who worked there who were just really 708 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: well informed and were able to kind of guide me 709 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: to what books I needed to be checking out. Well. 710 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: And and and I'm sure you know, a specialized shop 711 00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: like that would be obviously an incredible resource and a 712 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,319 Speaker 1: really cool way to really dive in. But if you 713 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: don't have a an occult bookstore in your neck of 714 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 1: the woods the stuff said Barnes and Noble, I mean 715 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,279 Speaker 1: you can. You can definitely find interesting books about just 716 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: about every aspect of of wick gun and spiritualism and 717 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 1: any kind of New Age religion, um that you might want. Yeah, 718 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 1: And so with our with our takeaway that clearly there 719 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,000 Speaker 1: are problems with defining witchcraft, but clearly it's on the rise. Uh. 720 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,279 Speaker 1: And we and we've kind of figured out why rather 721 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: than some big deep conspiracy theory that would require a 722 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: lot of otherworldly organization to be successful. Uh, we do 723 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: have two big takeaways and this was a point. Uh, 724 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 1: the the chaos practitioner made, which is, read the history 725 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: of something before you before you start taking, you know, 726 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: before you start getting very experimental and exploring these things 727 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 1: in practice. Make sure that you are well educated. You 728 00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: can find, like Matt Nola said, resources online for free 729 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,360 Speaker 1: as well, and this this stuff will only further empower 730 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:10,000 Speaker 1: you acknowledge should you decide to to become an active practitioner. 731 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 1: I would save for the second part for the folks 732 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,360 Speaker 1: who are perhaps more on the skeptical end of the 733 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,200 Speaker 1: spectrum here, or for those of us who have our 734 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:23,879 Speaker 1: own strong religious or spiritual beliefs. Just be respectful of 735 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:25,680 Speaker 1: of these folks, you know, and they're not out here 736 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: trying to curse your well or make your cattle ugly. 737 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:33,759 Speaker 1: Oh no, wait, make their milk bad. That was one 738 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:38,600 Speaker 1: of them. Uh yeah, So it's just like anybody else's 739 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 1: personal faith. We've always said on this show. Uh, those 740 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: beliefs are your own there, no one else is. It's 741 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 1: not our job to tell you what what to think. 742 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:52,680 Speaker 1: But if what we have found today is true, then 743 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: we can expect this trend to continue in step with 744 00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 1: instances of social unrest. I can't wait to hear those 745 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,440 Speaker 1: stories that we're going to get from some of our 746 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,879 Speaker 1: conspiracy realists today. Guys, I think we're gonna see some 747 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,320 Speaker 1: commonalities and I think we're gonna learn some pretty cool stuff. 748 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 1: Let us know what you think. You can find us 749 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,200 Speaker 1: on the usual Internet places of notes such as Facebook 750 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: and Twitter, UM and YouTube where we are at the 751 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,719 Speaker 1: handle conspiracy stuff and where a conspiracy stuff show on Instagram. Yes, 752 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,120 Speaker 1: and you can also reach out to us with your voice. 753 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,359 Speaker 1: You can call the number one eight three three st 754 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: d w y t K leave a voicemail. Please give 755 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,560 Speaker 1: yourself a cool nickname. You have three minutes say whatever 756 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: you want. We just want to hear anything you have 757 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,880 Speaker 1: to say. Please, please, please, But if three minutes is 758 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 1: not enough time for you to get all of your 759 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,840 Speaker 1: information down, we ask instead that you send us a 760 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,239 Speaker 1: good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart 761 00:49:54,320 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: radio dot com. Yeah h stuff they don't want you 762 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: to know is a production of I Heart Radio. For 763 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart 764 00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,040 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 765 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:23,720 Speaker 1: favorite shows.