WEBVTT - Mourning at the Church 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper, he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.080 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.040 get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years, I've been 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.839 on the road playing shows and seeing America through live music. 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:16.320 This summer, I'll hit the stage who Season two of 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:20.960 Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:23.600 we explore the live music venues and culture of a 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.920 new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:28.440 into the kind of venues you want to get to 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:33.120 when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, or Seattle. Listen 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.480 to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:40.880 or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the story 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.520 of a man who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.200 Daddy Grace, and that's a name you don't forget. He 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:51.000 was a visionary who built a fortune as a black 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:55.640 man during Jim Crow during the Depression, but today not 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.440 many people know about him. He raised sort of wiped out, 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.160 and I want if this was done intentionally. Listen to 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:07.000 Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:13.799 wherever you get your podcasts. Today was all about how 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.680 they discovered the final victim and in his body, that's 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:21.040 Kenneth Roden, and it included a tense confrontation between Kenneth 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.480 Roden's son and the man on trial and accused of 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.280 taking part in the murder of his father six years ago. 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:30.880 You were going over there to telling what a correct Yeah, 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:36.040 we went inside. Then that's when we've found out that 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.520 he was deceased. But what are your thoughts about the Whiteners. 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:44.360 My thoughts about the Wideners. I hope they Yet everything 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:52.560 comes to this is the Pikes and Massacre returned to 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:58.200 Pike County season four, episode five, Morning at the Church. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.200 Im Courtney Armstrong a television producer at Katie Studios with 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.640 Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane. Stephanie and I are currently 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:13.600 in Pike County. All right, so here we are, wrote 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:19.200 the courthouse in Waverley. The courthouse is not as busy 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:23.359 as it was when court proceedings began. Now it's mostly 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:27.720 media and the victim's family members. It's important to note 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.240 that George Wagner, the fourth currently on trial, has pleaded 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.720 not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.680 His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:44.760 pleaded not guilty to all charges. Today's testimony centered around 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.000 the events leading up to the discovery of Kenneth Roden's body. 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:51.920 He was found by his cousin, Donald Stone, and was 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:55.600 the last of the victims to be discovered. Here's Donald 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.760 on the stand. How do you know Kenneth Roden Hco 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.960 his mother and my father was brother and sisters. Some 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.920 cousins are close, some aren't. Would you consider yourself to 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.640 have been close to kind of real close? Okay, and 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:15.720 tell us about that. Just you know, anytime that I 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.599 was down and out, the man was there to help me. 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.919 Their mother fed me when I was young, and they're 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:28.359 just helpful people. Donald Stone is understandably emotional in the 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:33.280 witness chair. How did you learn that something had happened 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.279 up on Union Hill Road? Well, I was a herd 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:40.919 appointment that morning. I had talked to gentlemen while I 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.359 was there and he asked me if I heard what 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:48.000 happened on Union Hill And I got word that there 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.800 was some people meeting at a church. So you went 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.359 to the church on Union Hill Road? And who I 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.440 was there? It's just there was a lot of people there. 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:03.200 Family may nervous, a lot of people there. Okay. At 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.400 what point did you learn how many had been killed 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:10.839 on Union Hill Road? Actually I hadn't known at the 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:15.320 time how many there were. For sure. You indicated that 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.279 you tried to call Kenneth at one time and that 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.800 was from your home after that appointment, Yes, okay. Did 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.760 you personally ever try to call Kenneth after that? Yes, well, 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:28.800 when I tried to make the phone calls, I did 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.320 try to call him once. Okay. And while you were 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:36.360 at the church, did there become some concerns about Kenneth 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:43.960 not responding to phone calls? Yeah, okay. And can you 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:47.800 tell us did you decide to go to Kenneth at 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.920 some point? Yeah. We was at the church and Luke 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.880 mentioned that he wanted to go to his dad's place, 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:58.520 and he asked me if I wanted to go, and 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:04.640 we went. Here's Stephanie and I speaking about the testimony 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.000 thus far. It's pretty powerful to be there. I also 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:13.320 didn't realize that Donald Stone was not alone when he 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:19.880 discovered Kenneth's body. I didn't realize Kenneth's son, Luke, was 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.880 also present. I didn't know that either. I didn't know 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:28.560 that either until today. How painful that must have been. Next, 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.160 Antrew Kneppa begins the difficult process of walking the cousins 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:37.600 through the discovery of Kenneth Rowden's body. Here again, Donald Stone, 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.760 we'll get out there. We got Alicore. We walked up 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:47.760 to the door man Luke, and once we got to 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:51.920 the door, I told you MOSI, this is your head's place. 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.880 You need to go in. First we walked into the 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.599 supposedly the living room, and I noticed to the right, 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.120 I didn't see him in there nowhere, So I've seen 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.600 a stairway to the right, and I walked up the 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.120 stairway and as we found him a fairy and he's 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:18.040 a bid And when you say you found him, can 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:22.160 you tell us what condition you found him in? Yeah, 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:28.920 but o resides and where was he located? And he's mad, 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.800 he's dead. Was it just you that walked up those 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:43.400 stairs and saw Kenneth. Yes, it was significant, just being 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:47.760 in the courtroom and being close to family members. Kenneth 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.760 Rowden is one of the victims that we really have 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.560 known the least about. We know that he's a father, 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:57.200 we know that he lived by himself, and that he 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:02.120 was extremely close with Chris Senior. Seeing these crime scene 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:08.960 photos it was pretty excruciating. I believe what struck me 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.520 so much in the courtroom is it's cliche, but how 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:16.680 very different it is seeing these actual photos versus anything 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.280 you see when you watch TV or a movie. Just 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:22.920 the stark lack of life and these photos was so 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:27.200 impactful and felt so permanent. We were sitting just feet 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.680 away from Kenneth's family members and for them I cannot 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.320 imagine how excruciating it was for them to have to 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:37.440 see that and imagine being Luke, this is his father. 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.480 He had to see his father's body and this was 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:47.040 a violent crime. So the trauma that they've been through 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.040 just seeing a dead body, let alone of somebody you 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:56.040 love so deeply, and for them to have to get 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.520 up there and relive it step by step by step, 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:04.440 the bravery it took, I don't know that I would 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:11.520 be able to find that level of courage. Because Donald 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:14.440 Stone identified the body, Caneppa had no choice but to 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:18.679 have him relive the dramatic events through crime scene photos 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:25.040 showing you what's been marked as one who will back 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:30.200 to Do you recognize that photo? Yes? And can you 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:38.840 tell us what you recognize that? As you live? He 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:43.199 breaks down here and grabs more tissues. Caneppa, knowing this 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:49.240 is horrible, prefaces each question with an apology. Sorry, and 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.840 is that how he saw Kenneth Lyne in his bed. 0:09:52.040 --> 0:10:00.960 You entered that d way, which is two of us. 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:10.480 Mister Stone, can you look at that? I'm sorry, what 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:14.720 do you recognize that as? And is that how you 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:19.599 saw him on that day? Yes? And you indicated that 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:25.920 he had just that imagine recollection of the blood that 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:33.200 you saw him he is Okay. Here's James Pilcher, longtime 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:40.200 investigative reporter in Cincinnati now with Local twelve. Everybody knows 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.640 in Pike County how these people died. I would say 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.319 they are trying to shock the jury at this point 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.360 with the violence of it, for sure, because they showed 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.800 the pictures of people dead in their beds or on 0:10:53.840 --> 0:11:01.120 the floor time and time and time again. The trial 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.920 is reopening wounds that may have only just begun to heal. 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:09.120 Traveling with us as investigative journalist Jeff Winkler, who you'll 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.880 remember from previous seasons. It was his article about the 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.360 Rodent family that first peaked her interest in the case. 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.480 He's joined us for several trips to Pike County over 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:23.040 the years. I think that's the weirdest thing is going 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:27.680 into the courthouse as the trial is going and starting 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:33.360 for George and the families still there, still grieving, still 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:35.720 having the same kind of grief and trauma. Then seeing 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.680 the family having just basically stuck in time of pain. 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:42.319 Can you imagine, though, the level of grief and despair 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.480 even just to have to sit there and look at 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.200 these photos, which I might dad were pretty graphic and 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.800 we've never actually seen those before. I think that's what 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.440 struck me walking in there today was just the I mean, 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:55.960 it's been six years, you know, Yeah, so you've got 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.080 the core warners and the core folks in the middle 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.240 of the trauma. Everyone else's golf. I thought it was 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:06.840 also interesting to finally see the matriarch of the Rodin family. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:13.440 She's Chris Senior's mother and the grandmother therefore of Hannahmey Roden, 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:22.160 Chris Junior Roden, Frankie Rodin, and I believe then her 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:28.520 grandson would also be Luke. Chris and Kenneth were her sons, 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:34.040 which yes, would make Luke her grandson. I was so 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.920 sad for Geneva Roden because I looked over at one 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.040 point and there were just some horrific crime scene photos 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:45.520 being shown. Here's reporter A Jeanette Levy, who was also 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:50.679 present in the courtroom, and Geneva Roden was consoling her 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.439 daughters who were sobbing. She was sobbing. They were kind 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:59.240 of consoling one another and just understandably falling apart having 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:04.080 to see photos of their loved ones murdered and what 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:10.679 is just an unbelievable amount of blood in some instances. Meanwhile, 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.560 Kenneth Roden's son Luke, had also caught wind of the 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.920 murders on the morning of April twenty second, twenty sixteen. 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:23.480 Here he is testifying alone came into my bedroom and 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:27.560 said that I needed to get up then Chris and 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:33.080 everybody get out there shot up on the hill. Luke 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.520 Roden is an imposing man with a beard and short 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:40.120 brown hair. He wears a blue shirt. Luke is poised 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.600 and speaks in a very matter of fact manner. As 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.080 new spread around town of the murders, Luke tried to 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.160 make his way to his uncle, Chris Senior's house, but 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:53.240 police had already cordoned off the road. And then do 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.559 you know how you knew to go to the church 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.440 someone who came on last night that they all meet 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.320 never urge while you were trying to get through there, right, 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.800 They informed you to go to the church. People were 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:11.400 gathering at the church. Yeah, Luke found Donald Stone, his 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.600 father's cousin and best friend, at the church. During this time. 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.880 Do you make any attempts to contact your father? Yes, 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.560 try to contact about a dozen times. Never seen anything 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:29.360 back from him. Okay, is that normal? Okay? At that 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:37.360 point do you get concerned? Yes? Here again James Pilcher. 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:42.080 Both of them talked about the chaos and all of 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.160 the things that were happening when they didn't know where 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:47.840 Ken was. They couldn't get a touch with him. The 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.680 prosecution even showed a picture of the cell phone that 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:53.480 Ken would put in his window to try to give 0:14:53.480 --> 0:15:01.840 a reception. And he went down to your dad's What 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.600 did you do when you got there? I've seen on driveway, 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:12.320 so I'll get out. Special Prosecutor Angi Kneppa shows Luke 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:17.240 and the jury various exterior photos of Kenneth's property. There 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.000 is an abandoned boat on one side of the driveway entrance. 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.000 Nestled back in the woods are two trailers and an outbuilding. 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.200 It's April, so there are no leaves on the trees, 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.240 but you can imagine it's pretty secluded. Once things are 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:34.440 in bloom. Kneppa spends nearly thirty minutes dissecting each photo 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.960 for the jury. Reporter James Pilcher noted the level of 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:46.120 detail on the part of the prosecution. I don't mean 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.040 this is a criticism towards a prosecution, because they gotta 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.920 do what they gotta do. But this is going extremely, 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.960 extremely slowly. It feels like they're trying to kill a 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.560 gnat with a ten pound sledge. They're pulling out every 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:05.920 single piece of evidence they have for every single possible 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.200 question that could come up. This trial has slowed to 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:17.800 a snail space. On cross examination, the defense questions Luke 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.120 Roden about a local whose name we have heard come 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:27.720 up in our investigation, Big Money Mike. Can tell us 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.600 didn't tell you I've heard his name, book, didn't tell 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:35.880 you who he is. You've heard his name from? Yeah, 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.600 I didn't hear about it until everything has happened, so 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:48.440 I can Stephanie and Jeff. In Luke Roden's testimony, he 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.640 made it clear that he hadn't heard the name Big 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:54.120 Money Mike until after the murders and didn't know how 0:16:54.160 --> 0:17:02.560 it related to his family members being murdered. I'm curious 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:07.159 where the prosecution is leading to, because it's come up 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:13.440 now twice. We started doing our own digging about big 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.960 Money Mike, and we have to assume that that stands 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:21.720 for Michael Moran. He is the attorney that has since 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.320 died that we covered pretty extensively in season two and 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:31.520 he had a very checkered past. Maybe that's him, but 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.560 again we don't know for sure. This is just another 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.399 example of the prosecution building a narrative that we're not 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:42.119 totally sure where it will lead until they rest. Andrew 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.399 Knapa asked Luke about what happened after he and Donald 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:50.280 Stone entered his father's home. No, he stamped up in 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:55.040 there and looked a ramp path me and told me 0:17:55.440 --> 0:18:00.200 to get out like he'd been shock. He told he 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.760 had been shot, he said, but all over his face. 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:09.320 When you were inside of your dad's home, did you 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.600 step up at all into his bedroom. I don't believe 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.560 I stand up doing his bedroom. I may stepped on 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.920 the step right there. Maybe No, I don't believe I 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.280 stepped into the bedroom. Okay, were you able to see 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.600 any part of him from where you were? I able 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.080 to see his leg and at the top of his 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:32.520 head and the blanket was actually placed like he has 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:38.000 been placed. Ony, Okay, there was a blanket on him, right, Okay? 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.280 Were you able to see his face at that time 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.520 at all? Now? I just see his forehead and his hair. 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.879 At this point, Conepa asked Luke about the money that 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:56.720 was found on Kenneth's body. I seem probably, I don't 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.800 know how much, but like a few ones and fives 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:04.240 and something like that, some money, paper money, and his 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:08.960 parents was laying there beside it. Here's Stephanie and Jeff Winkler. 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:13.000 We always sort of had heard that he had almost 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.400 like there was money thrown all over his body. Yeah, 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.000 it was a rolled up dollar bill and some change, 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.000 That's all. It wasn't there wasn't money lying everywhere. We 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.720 always maybe thought that was such an interesting crime scene 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.159 and very different than the others, and maybe that was 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.080 a way of making it look like a hit, or 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.679 like it look like the cartel had done it. It 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.040 was a good reminder that in those first you know, 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.200 first forty eight hours or whatever, of just pure speculation, 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.720 that's hard enough to beat, but then these little bits 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:47.199 of fantasy, hitch on for a rod and don't let go. 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.320 We're going to take a break. We'll be back in 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:58.600 a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.240 podcast called The girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:04.880 in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the most 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:10.879 eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, he 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:16.080 did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He was 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:20.800 perfect on paper. But he wasn't. He really wasn't, he 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:25.400 shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could lie 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.600 about anything, but only takes the one time when somebody 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:33.520 ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know how 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:36.560 to fight back. I wanted him to pay for his crime. 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.560 He needed to be put to justice. I'll be honest 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:40.960 with you. If I saw him right now, I'd spit 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.480 on him. I would call him and I would say, 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.760 I know you killed my sister. I will always hound 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.600 you and haunt you. You can listen to The Girlfriends 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:53.880 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:58.880 your podcasts from iHeart Podcasts. Whitney hell is going on here. 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:03.040 Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted a situation like this. 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.400 I just thought it was just a really terrible, immoral 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.840 thing a line they won't cross. I was stunned and 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.120 I just said, no, we're killing people. You may never 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.440 have to face that decision when you find yourself at 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:19.199 that line. Its ricin, arn't ricin, And somebody needs to 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:22.720 just for once give everybody the whole truth, like this 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.840 is evil and the only person who can sound the 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:30.480 alarm is you. I wasn't just going to sit silently. 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:35.760 Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. If you 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:39.000 are disloyal, things are going to happen to out disgrace 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:44.679 through our gun people. Pay should be prosecute when power corrupts, 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:49.200 conscience is the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.320 Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:21:53.520 --> 0:22:01.879 or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:06.080 I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of The Laverne 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.080 Cox Show. You may remember my award winning first season. 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:13.560 I've been pretty busy. There's always time to touch incredible 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.840 guests about important things. People like me have been screaming 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.040 for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. What 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:21.560 they're doing is wrong. What they're doing is evil, They 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:24.520 will take things away, and I can only hope that 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:27.399 Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment, girl, you and 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:29.920 I both know what it took to just get through 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.040 the day in New York City and get home in 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.119 one piece. And so the fact that we're here and 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:39.359 what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.520 It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. The 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:44.960 only reason that you might think, as Chase said, that 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:48.479 we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:51.200 and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The Laverne Cox 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:55.119 Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:22:55.200 --> 0:23:02.479 get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share How 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:05.440 Rude Tanta Ritos is the Full House rewatch podcast you've 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:08.760 been waiting for. Each week, get together with iconic characters 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:12.840 Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, also known as actresses Jody 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:15.719 Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as they team up to relive 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:19.159 every episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show. We 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:22.560 spent our entire childhoods on a little show called Full House, 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:26.240 playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling, 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.320 and now thirty five years later, it's our biggest adventure yet. 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:31.880 Get ready for Jody and Andrea to tell all as 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:34.040 they take an in depth look back at life in 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.080 and around the Tanner Home from the very very beginning. 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:39.639 So if you think you know everything there is to 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:43.560 know about Full House, How Rude, We'll be reliving every 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:45.760 moment with you, and we'll be joined by our Full 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.359 House family, including all your favorites from one hundred and 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.239 ninety two episodes. We'll reveal the hidden treasures you may 0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:53.080 have missed within the show, and we'll take a trip 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:56.040 down memory lane together. Listen to How Rude Tanta Ritos 0:23:56.080 --> 0:23:59.720 on the iHeartRadio Appicable podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:09.400 For most of the morning, George Wagner the fourth, it's 0:24:09.480 --> 0:24:15.920 motionless looking down. This is true, especially during Donald Stone's 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:21.200 emotional testimony. George Wagner finally makes eye contact when questions 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:25.159 turned to his family. Luke only had brief interactions with 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:28.320 the Wagners over the years, but one with Billy stuck 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:32.880 out in his memory. I was out at his property 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:36.760 one time. It was the one that pretty far off 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:42.360 the grid, and my dad and Chris learning the backau 0:24:44.000 --> 0:24:48.080 for him to do something, and backhead went the star. 0:24:48.200 --> 0:24:50.600 So he got a hold of my dad and Chris. 0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:53.920 They brought some tarps and space heater and all that 0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:57.439 didn't get the back. I warmed up in order to 0:24:57.440 --> 0:25:00.400 get us started. I was standing there on the trailer 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:04.200 and he was named beside me, look at me, he said, 0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:06.679 he's top. He said, there's some really good people. He 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:08.800 said that if Air had to funk with him, that 0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:11.800 they had to shoot him. If they ever had what 0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:14.520 mess with him, if he had had a tussle with him, whatever, 0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:18.040 he had had to shoot him. Did he explain why 0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:21.480 that was or did he say anything more? That was it, 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:26.640 But he was telling you they were really great people. Yeah. 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:31.520 First right at the end of his testimony, Luke was 0:25:31.560 --> 0:25:34.240 asked to point out George by both the prosecution and 0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:40.480 the defense. Mister present today. Yes, you have so many 0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:43.320 points where he's sitting, he described. First one, he's weird 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:49.840 him right there. The best one changed appearance was at all. 0:25:49.960 --> 0:25:55.960 Yes he has Wait wise, he was much larger when 0:25:55.960 --> 0:26:01.600 you last saw him. Right, Yes, here again, Stephanie. I 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:06.200 was struck just by seeing George Wagner in person, having 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:09.880 never seen him before. In person, he was slighter than 0:26:09.920 --> 0:26:12.280 I imagined him being. He's got good, a little ball 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:16.199 going on, you know, boots are shined, just kind of 0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:19.520 looks regular, which is not what you you know, they're 0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:22.680 supposed to have some sort of like dark glow around them. Right. 0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:28.320 Media covering the trial immediately latched onto the story. Luca 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:31.840 told about his interaction with Billy Wagner, the son of 0:26:31.840 --> 0:26:35.200 one of the Pike County massacre victims, testified Billy Wagner's 0:26:35.280 --> 0:26:37.320 right in the road and family four or five years 0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:39.960 before the actual shootings. Luke said that while his dad 0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:42.280 and uncle were doing a good deed for Billy Wagner, 0:26:42.440 --> 0:26:44.800 Billy told Luke that a dust up between the three 0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:51.520 of them would not end well. After kenep as well 0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:55.040 planned line of questioning of Luke crowdon George's defense attorney 0:26:55.119 --> 0:26:59.720 has very little to add. He rests within minutes here again, 0:27:00.200 --> 0:27:05.720 James Pilcher. Clearly they are cutting off any opportunity for 0:27:05.800 --> 0:27:08.320 the defense to ask, well, why didn't you ask this, 0:27:08.520 --> 0:27:10.800 Why didn't you do that? Why didn't you this? Now 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:12.800 the defense is still trying to find its way to 0:27:12.880 --> 0:27:16.439 do that. The final witness of the day illustrates the 0:27:16.480 --> 0:27:20.840 prosecution strategy perfectly. Brett Hatfield was a friend and co 0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:24.520 worker of Kenneth Rod's. He opts out of media coverage, 0:27:24.800 --> 0:27:29.639 but we were there to follow his testimony. Brett Hatfield 0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:33.360