1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper, he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years, I've been 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: on the road playing shows and seeing America through live music. 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: This summer, I'll hit the stage who Season two of 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: we explore the live music venues and culture of a 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues 25 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: into the kind of venues you want to get to 26 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, or Seattle. Listen 27 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 28 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the story 29 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: of a man who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet 30 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace, and that's a name you don't forget. He 31 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: was a visionary who built a fortune as a black 32 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: man during Jim Crow during the Depression, but today not 33 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: many people know about him. He raised sort of wiped out, 34 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: and I want if this was done intentionally. Listen to 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or 36 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Today was all about how 37 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: they discovered the final victim and in his body, that's 38 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: Kenneth Roden, and it included a tense confrontation between Kenneth 39 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: Roden's son and the man on trial and accused of 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: taking part in the murder of his father six years ago. 41 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: You were going over there to telling what a correct Yeah, 42 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: we went inside. Then that's when we've found out that 43 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: he was deceased. But what are your thoughts about the Whiteners. 44 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: My thoughts about the Wideners. I hope they Yet everything 45 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: comes to this is the Pikes and Massacre returned to 46 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: Pike County season four, episode five, Morning at the Church. 47 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: Im Courtney Armstrong a television producer at Katie Studios with 48 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane. Stephanie and I are currently 49 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: in Pike County. All right, so here we are, wrote 50 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: the courthouse in Waverley. The courthouse is not as busy 51 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: as it was when court proceedings began. Now it's mostly 52 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: media and the victim's family members. It's important to note 53 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: that George Wagner, the fourth currently on trial, has pleaded 54 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. 55 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also 56 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to all charges. Today's testimony centered around 57 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: the events leading up to the discovery of Kenneth Roden's body. 58 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: He was found by his cousin, Donald Stone, and was 59 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: the last of the victims to be discovered. Here's Donald 60 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: on the stand. How do you know Kenneth Roden Hco 61 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: his mother and my father was brother and sisters. Some 62 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: cousins are close, some aren't. Would you consider yourself to 63 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: have been close to kind of real close? Okay, and 64 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: tell us about that. Just you know, anytime that I 65 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: was down and out, the man was there to help me. 66 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 1: Their mother fed me when I was young, and they're 67 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: just helpful people. Donald Stone is understandably emotional in the 68 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: witness chair. How did you learn that something had happened 69 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: up on Union Hill Road? Well, I was a herd 70 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: appointment that morning. I had talked to gentlemen while I 71 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: was there and he asked me if I heard what 72 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: happened on Union Hill And I got word that there 73 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: was some people meeting at a church. So you went 74 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: to the church on Union Hill Road? And who I 75 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: was there? It's just there was a lot of people there. 76 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: Family may nervous, a lot of people there. Okay. At 77 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: what point did you learn how many had been killed 78 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: on Union Hill Road? Actually I hadn't known at the 79 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: time how many there were. For sure. You indicated that 80 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: you tried to call Kenneth at one time and that 81 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: was from your home after that appointment, Yes, okay. Did 82 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: you personally ever try to call Kenneth after that? Yes, well, 83 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: when I tried to make the phone calls, I did 84 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: try to call him once. Okay. And while you were 85 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: at the church, did there become some concerns about Kenneth 86 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: not responding to phone calls? Yeah, okay. And can you 87 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: tell us did you decide to go to Kenneth at 88 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: some point? Yeah. We was at the church and Luke 89 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: mentioned that he wanted to go to his dad's place, 90 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: and he asked me if I wanted to go, and 91 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: we went. Here's Stephanie and I speaking about the testimony 92 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: thus far. It's pretty powerful to be there. I also 93 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: didn't realize that Donald Stone was not alone when he 94 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: discovered Kenneth's body. I didn't realize Kenneth's son, Luke, was 95 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: also present. I didn't know that either. I didn't know 96 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: that either until today. How painful that must have been. Next, 97 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: Antrew Kneppa begins the difficult process of walking the cousins 98 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: through the discovery of Kenneth Rowden's body. Here again, Donald Stone, 99 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: we'll get out there. We got Alicore. We walked up 100 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: to the door man Luke, and once we got to 101 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: the door, I told you MOSI, this is your head's place. 102 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: You need to go in. First we walked into the 103 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: supposedly the living room, and I noticed to the right, 104 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: I didn't see him in there nowhere, So I've seen 105 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: a stairway to the right, and I walked up the 106 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: stairway and as we found him a fairy and he's 107 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: a bid And when you say you found him, can 108 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: you tell us what condition you found him in? Yeah, 109 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: but o resides and where was he located? And he's mad, 110 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: he's dead. Was it just you that walked up those 111 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: stairs and saw Kenneth. Yes, it was significant, just being 112 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: in the courtroom and being close to family members. Kenneth 113 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: Rowden is one of the victims that we really have 114 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: known the least about. We know that he's a father, 115 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: we know that he lived by himself, and that he 116 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: was extremely close with Chris Senior. Seeing these crime scene 117 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: photos it was pretty excruciating. I believe what struck me 118 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: so much in the courtroom is it's cliche, but how 119 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: very different it is seeing these actual photos versus anything 120 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: you see when you watch TV or a movie. Just 121 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: the stark lack of life and these photos was so 122 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: impactful and felt so permanent. We were sitting just feet 123 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: away from Kenneth's family members and for them I cannot 124 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: imagine how excruciating it was for them to have to 125 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: see that and imagine being Luke, this is his father. 126 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: He had to see his father's body and this was 127 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: a violent crime. So the trauma that they've been through 128 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: just seeing a dead body, let alone of somebody you 129 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: love so deeply, and for them to have to get 130 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: up there and relive it step by step by step, 131 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: the bravery it took, I don't know that I would 132 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: be able to find that level of courage. Because Donald 133 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: Stone identified the body, Caneppa had no choice but to 134 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: have him relive the dramatic events through crime scene photos 135 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: showing you what's been marked as one who will back 136 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: to Do you recognize that photo? Yes? And can you 137 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: tell us what you recognize that? As you live? He 138 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: breaks down here and grabs more tissues. Caneppa, knowing this 139 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: is horrible, prefaces each question with an apology. Sorry, and 140 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: is that how he saw Kenneth Lyne in his bed. 141 00:09:52,040 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: You entered that d way, which is two of us. 142 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: Mister Stone, can you look at that? I'm sorry, what 143 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: do you recognize that as? And is that how you 144 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:19,599 Speaker 1: saw him on that day? Yes? And you indicated that 145 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: he had just that imagine recollection of the blood that 146 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: you saw him he is Okay. Here's James Pilcher, longtime 147 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: investigative reporter in Cincinnati now with Local twelve. Everybody knows 148 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: in Pike County how these people died. I would say 149 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: they are trying to shock the jury at this point 150 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: with the violence of it, for sure, because they showed 151 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: the pictures of people dead in their beds or on 152 00:10:53,840 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: the floor time and time and time again. The trial 153 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: is reopening wounds that may have only just begun to heal. 154 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: Traveling with us as investigative journalist Jeff Winkler, who you'll 155 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: remember from previous seasons. It was his article about the 156 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: Rodent family that first peaked her interest in the case. 157 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: He's joined us for several trips to Pike County over 158 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: the years. I think that's the weirdest thing is going 159 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: into the courthouse as the trial is going and starting 160 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: for George and the families still there, still grieving, still 161 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: having the same kind of grief and trauma. Then seeing 162 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: the family having just basically stuck in time of pain. 163 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: Can you imagine, though, the level of grief and despair 164 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: even just to have to sit there and look at 165 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: these photos, which I might dad were pretty graphic and 166 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: we've never actually seen those before. I think that's what 167 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: struck me walking in there today was just the I mean, 168 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: it's been six years, you know, Yeah, so you've got 169 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: the core warners and the core folks in the middle 170 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: of the trauma. Everyone else's golf. I thought it was 171 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: also interesting to finally see the matriarch of the Rodin family. 172 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: She's Chris Senior's mother and the grandmother therefore of Hannahmey Roden, 173 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: Chris Junior Roden, Frankie Rodin, and I believe then her 174 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: grandson would also be Luke. Chris and Kenneth were her sons, 175 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: which yes, would make Luke her grandson. I was so 176 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: sad for Geneva Roden because I looked over at one 177 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: point and there were just some horrific crime scene photos 178 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: being shown. Here's reporter A Jeanette Levy, who was also 179 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: present in the courtroom, and Geneva Roden was consoling her 180 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 1: daughters who were sobbing. She was sobbing. They were kind 181 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: of consoling one another and just understandably falling apart having 182 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: to see photos of their loved ones murdered and what 183 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: is just an unbelievable amount of blood in some instances. Meanwhile, 184 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: Kenneth Roden's son Luke, had also caught wind of the 185 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: murders on the morning of April twenty second, twenty sixteen. 186 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: Here he is testifying alone came into my bedroom and 187 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: said that I needed to get up then Chris and 188 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: everybody get out there shot up on the hill. Luke 189 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: Roden is an imposing man with a beard and short 190 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: brown hair. He wears a blue shirt. Luke is poised 191 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: and speaks in a very matter of fact manner. As 192 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: new spread around town of the murders, Luke tried to 193 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: make his way to his uncle, Chris Senior's house, but 194 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: police had already cordoned off the road. And then do 195 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: you know how you knew to go to the church 196 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: someone who came on last night that they all meet 197 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: never urge while you were trying to get through there, right, 198 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: They informed you to go to the church. People were 199 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: gathering at the church. Yeah, Luke found Donald Stone, his 200 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: father's cousin and best friend, at the church. During this time. 201 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: Do you make any attempts to contact your father? Yes, 202 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: try to contact about a dozen times. Never seen anything 203 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: back from him. Okay, is that normal? Okay? At that 204 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: point do you get concerned? Yes? Here again James Pilcher. 205 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: Both of them talked about the chaos and all of 206 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: the things that were happening when they didn't know where 207 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: Ken was. They couldn't get a touch with him. The 208 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: prosecution even showed a picture of the cell phone that 209 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: Ken would put in his window to try to give 210 00:14:53,480 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: a reception. And he went down to your dad's What 211 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: did you do when you got there? I've seen on driveway, 212 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: so I'll get out. Special Prosecutor Angi Kneppa shows Luke 213 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: and the jury various exterior photos of Kenneth's property. There 214 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: is an abandoned boat on one side of the driveway entrance. 215 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: Nestled back in the woods are two trailers and an outbuilding. 216 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: It's April, so there are no leaves on the trees, 217 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: but you can imagine it's pretty secluded. Once things are 218 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: in bloom. Kneppa spends nearly thirty minutes dissecting each photo 219 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: for the jury. Reporter James Pilcher noted the level of 220 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: detail on the part of the prosecution. I don't mean 221 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: this is a criticism towards a prosecution, because they gotta 222 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: do what they gotta do. But this is going extremely, 223 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: extremely slowly. It feels like they're trying to kill a 224 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: gnat with a ten pound sledge. They're pulling out every 225 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: single piece of evidence they have for every single possible 226 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: question that could come up. This trial has slowed to 227 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: a snail space. On cross examination, the defense questions Luke 228 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: Roden about a local whose name we have heard come 229 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: up in our investigation, Big Money Mike. Can tell us 230 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: didn't tell you I've heard his name, book, didn't tell 231 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: you who he is. You've heard his name from? Yeah, 232 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: I didn't hear about it until everything has happened, so 233 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: I can Stephanie and Jeff. In Luke Roden's testimony, he 234 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: made it clear that he hadn't heard the name Big 235 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: Money Mike until after the murders and didn't know how 236 00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: it related to his family members being murdered. I'm curious 237 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: where the prosecution is leading to, because it's come up 238 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: now twice. We started doing our own digging about big 239 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: Money Mike, and we have to assume that that stands 240 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: for Michael Moran. He is the attorney that has since 241 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: died that we covered pretty extensively in season two and 242 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: he had a very checkered past. Maybe that's him, but 243 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: again we don't know for sure. This is just another 244 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: example of the prosecution building a narrative that we're not 245 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: totally sure where it will lead until they rest. Andrew 246 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: Knapa asked Luke about what happened after he and Donald 247 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: Stone entered his father's home. No, he stamped up in 248 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: there and looked a ramp path me and told me 249 00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: to get out like he'd been shock. He told he 250 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: had been shot, he said, but all over his face. 251 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: When you were inside of your dad's home, did you 252 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: step up at all into his bedroom. I don't believe 253 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: I stand up doing his bedroom. I may stepped on 254 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: the step right there. Maybe No, I don't believe I 255 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: stepped into the bedroom. Okay, were you able to see 256 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: any part of him from where you were? I able 257 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: to see his leg and at the top of his 258 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: head and the blanket was actually placed like he has 259 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: been placed. Ony, Okay, there was a blanket on him, right, Okay? 260 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: Were you able to see his face at that time 261 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: at all? Now? I just see his forehead and his hair. 262 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: At this point, Conepa asked Luke about the money that 263 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: was found on Kenneth's body. I seem probably, I don't 264 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: know how much, but like a few ones and fives 265 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: and something like that, some money, paper money, and his 266 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: parents was laying there beside it. Here's Stephanie and Jeff Winkler. 267 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: We always sort of had heard that he had almost 268 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: like there was money thrown all over his body. Yeah, 269 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: it was a rolled up dollar bill and some change, 270 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: That's all. It wasn't there wasn't money lying everywhere. We 271 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: always maybe thought that was such an interesting crime scene 272 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: and very different than the others, and maybe that was 273 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: a way of making it look like a hit, or 274 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: like it look like the cartel had done it. It 275 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: was a good reminder that in those first you know, 276 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: first forty eight hours or whatever, of just pure speculation, 277 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: that's hard enough to beat, but then these little bits 278 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: of fantasy, hitch on for a rod and don't let go. 279 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: We're going to take a break. We'll be back in 280 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a 281 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: podcast called The girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties 282 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the most 283 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, he 284 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He was 285 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: perfect on paper. But he wasn't. He really wasn't, he 286 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could lie 287 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: about anything, but only takes the one time when somebody 288 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know how 289 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: to fight back. I wanted him to pay for his crime. 290 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: He needed to be put to justice. I'll be honest 291 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: with you. If I saw him right now, I'd spit 292 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: on him. I would call him and I would say, 293 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. I will always hound 294 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: you and haunt you. You can listen to The Girlfriends 295 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 296 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: your podcasts from iHeart Podcasts. Whitney hell is going on here. 297 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted a situation like this. 298 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: I just thought it was just a really terrible, immoral 299 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: thing a line they won't cross. I was stunned and 300 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: I just said, no, we're killing people. You may never 301 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: have to face that decision when you find yourself at 302 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: that line. Its ricin, arn't ricin, And somebody needs to 303 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: just for once give everybody the whole truth, like this 304 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: is evil and the only person who can sound the 305 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: alarm is you. I wasn't just going to sit silently. 306 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. If you 307 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: are disloyal, things are going to happen to out disgrace 308 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: through our gun people. Pay should be prosecute when power corrupts, 309 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: conscience is the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. 310 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 311 00:21:53,520 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. 312 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of The Laverne 313 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: Cox Show. You may remember my award winning first season. 314 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: I've been pretty busy. There's always time to touch incredible 315 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: guests about important things. People like me have been screaming 316 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. What 317 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: they're doing is wrong. What they're doing is evil, They 318 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: will take things away, and I can only hope that 319 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment, girl, you and 320 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: I both know what it took to just get through 321 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: the day in New York City and get home in 322 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: one piece. And so the fact that we're here and 323 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. 324 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. The 325 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: only reason that you might think, as Chase said, that 326 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,479 Speaker 1: we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us 327 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The Laverne Cox 328 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 329 00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:02,479 Speaker 1: get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share How 330 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: Rude Tanta Ritos is the Full House rewatch podcast you've 331 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: been waiting for. Each week, get together with iconic characters 332 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, also known as actresses Jody 333 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 1: Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as they team up to relive 334 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: every episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show. We 335 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: spent our entire childhoods on a little show called Full House, 336 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling, 337 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: and now thirty five years later, it's our biggest adventure yet. 338 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: Get ready for Jody and Andrea to tell all as 339 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: they take an in depth look back at life in 340 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: and around the Tanner Home from the very very beginning. 341 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: So if you think you know everything there is to 342 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: know about Full House, How Rude, We'll be reliving every 343 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: moment with you, and we'll be joined by our Full 344 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: House family, including all your favorites from one hundred and 345 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,239 Speaker 1: ninety two episodes. We'll reveal the hidden treasures you may 346 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: have missed within the show, and we'll take a trip 347 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: down memory lane together. Listen to How Rude Tanta Ritos 348 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio Appicable podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 349 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: For most of the morning, George Wagner the fourth, it's 350 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: motionless looking down. This is true, especially during Donald Stone's 351 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: emotional testimony. George Wagner finally makes eye contact when questions 352 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: turned to his family. Luke only had brief interactions with 353 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: the Wagners over the years, but one with Billy stuck 354 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: out in his memory. I was out at his property 355 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: one time. It was the one that pretty far off 356 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: the grid, and my dad and Chris learning the backau 357 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: for him to do something, and backhead went the star. 358 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: So he got a hold of my dad and Chris. 359 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: They brought some tarps and space heater and all that 360 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: didn't get the back. I warmed up in order to 361 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: get us started. I was standing there on the trailer 362 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: and he was named beside me, look at me, he said, 363 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: he's top. He said, there's some really good people. He 364 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: said that if Air had to funk with him, that 365 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: they had to shoot him. If they ever had what 366 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: mess with him, if he had had a tussle with him, whatever, 367 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: he had had to shoot him. Did he explain why 368 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: that was or did he say anything more? That was it, 369 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 1: But he was telling you they were really great people. Yeah. 370 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: First right at the end of his testimony, Luke was 371 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: asked to point out George by both the prosecution and 372 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: the defense. Mister present today. Yes, you have so many 373 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: points where he's sitting, he described. First one, he's weird 374 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: him right there. The best one changed appearance was at all. 375 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: Yes he has Wait wise, he was much larger when 376 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: you last saw him. Right, Yes, here again, Stephanie. I 377 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: was struck just by seeing George Wagner in person, having 378 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: never seen him before. In person, he was slighter than 379 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: I imagined him being. He's got good, a little ball 380 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: going on, you know, boots are shined, just kind of 381 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: looks regular, which is not what you you know, they're 382 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: supposed to have some sort of like dark glow around them. Right. 383 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: Media covering the trial immediately latched onto the story. Luca 384 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: told about his interaction with Billy Wagner, the son of 385 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: one of the Pike County massacre victims, testified Billy Wagner's 386 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: right in the road and family four or five years 387 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: before the actual shootings. Luke said that while his dad 388 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: and uncle were doing a good deed for Billy Wagner, 389 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: Billy told Luke that a dust up between the three 390 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: of them would not end well. After kenep as well 391 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: planned line of questioning of Luke crowdon George's defense attorney 392 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: has very little to add. He rests within minutes here again, 393 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: James Pilcher. Clearly they are cutting off any opportunity for 394 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: the defense to ask, well, why didn't you ask this, 395 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: Why didn't you do that? Why didn't you this? Now 396 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: the defense is still trying to find its way to 397 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: do that. The final witness of the day illustrates the 398 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: prosecution strategy perfectly. Brett Hatfield was a friend and co 399 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: worker of Kenneth Rod's. He opts out of media coverage, 400 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: but we were there to follow his testimony. Brett Hatfield 401 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: worked in Columbus at the same company as Kenneth, so 402 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: the pair very often car pool together. However, on the 403 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: morning of April twenty second, twenty sixteen, they didn't, and 404 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: when Hatfield arrived at Kenneth's home, probably around four am 405 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: the morning of April twenty second, he said there were 406 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: no lights on and that Kenneth's did income to the 407 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: door as he normally did. It turns out that the 408 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: day before, Hatfield said that Kenneth had complaining of high 409 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: blood pressure, a condition that Luke explains sometimes made him 410 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: sick and could cause him to miss work. So despite 411 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: Kenneth's car being in the lot, Hatfield assumed that maybe 412 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: somebody picked him up and took him to the hospital, 413 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: so he just left. James Pilcher, he came and saw 414 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: Kenneth all the time, so you put him up on 415 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: the sand. They're going incrementally chronologically, and I think they're 416 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: feeling in their way as they go through this trial. 417 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: To let the jury know, we took every step to 418 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: interview everybody we could. Legal analyst Mike Allen, who's speaking 419 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: with Jeff, agrees, it just tells the story here. This 420 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: poor guy, you know, he wants to pick up his 421 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: buddy to drive to Columbus to go to work, but 422 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: he's not there. That's something that's pretty strong and I 423 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: know the prosecution what the jury hear that. Yeah, it 424 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: definitely paints a picture, and that's what they need to do. 425 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: That's what they're doing. Hours after Hatfield left Kenneth Rowden's 426 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,479 Speaker 1: trailer that morning, a member of the road and family 427 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: called to tell him about the murders. Hatfield immediately left 428 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: work in Columbus and returned to Piketon. Here's Luke Rowden. 429 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: Did he arrive at some point? Yes, he did. Whenever 430 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,719 Speaker 1: we're sitting our way on the cops to come and 431 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: all that, he showed up on his four waller and 432 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: just there's like a scamer my dad's property behind his 433 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,479 Speaker 1: trailer and stuff like that. Okay, and do you know 434 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: what he was looking for at the time, cameras see 435 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: if the camera was still arounced to see if there 436 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: was any footage or less. Okay, many of the cameras 437 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: were missing. The prosecution asked him about Kenneth's dog, Brownie. 438 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: Earlier in the day, both Luke Roden and Donald Stone 439 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: testified the dog was inside the trailer when they arrived, 440 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: but Hatfield adds a very telling detail about the dog 441 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: here again Stephanie and Jeff. Interesting about Brownie is that 442 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: Hatfield says the dog would bite anybody, didn't matter who 443 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: you were unless you called the dog by name. And 444 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: that's interesting because it was reported that the Wagoners didn't 445 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: have any dog bites on them whatsoever, So why didn't 446 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: Brownie attack so step That says to me that it 447 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: seems pretty likely that whoever was there that night must 448 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: have known the dog by name. And keep in mind 449 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: that we have heard from numerous people that many of 450 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: the road and properties had dogs like this on them, 451 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: so that would be indicative that whoever was at all 452 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: of these crime scenes knew all of the dogs. In theory, 453 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: Hatfield added yet another chilling detail to the timeline of 454 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: April twenty sixteen. He said that when he found out 455 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: about the murders, he tried calling everyone in the Rodent family. 456 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: He even sent a DM to Hannah May on social media, who, 457 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: as we know, was tragically already dead. Hatfield said that 458 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: he never got a response, but he did get a 459 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: notification that the message was read. So what does that mean? 460 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: I would imagine after the murder, the killers were probably 461 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:24,959 Speaker 1: cleaning up or figuring out what to do, and her 462 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: phone was pinging and to silence that maybe they looked 463 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: at it or opened the text message and shut it down. 464 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: All we know is that Hotfield sent a message after 465 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: she was already murdered, and somebody read that message, and 466 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: it could not have been Hannah May Rodin We know 467 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: that it's come up that Jake Wagner took several phones 468 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: from the crime scenes and allegedly destroyed them the next day. 469 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: Is this one of those phones? And think about this? 470 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: Can you imagine being Jake Wagner and you're literally reading 471 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: a text on the phone of the mother of your 472 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: baby who you just murder, and you have enough wherewithal 473 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: to potentially check her phone and read her texts. With 474 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: the trial underway, the Rodent family is inching towards closure, 475 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: but not before some wounds are reopened for all the 476 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: world to see. Let's stop here for another break. Oh. 477 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The 478 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, 479 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 480 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 481 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 482 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she 483 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 484 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Fortunately for Bob, 485 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 486 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 487 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 488 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 489 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 490 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 491 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: listen to The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 492 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart Podcasts. Whitney 493 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: hell is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd 494 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: never confronted a situation like this. I just thought it 495 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: was just a really terrible, immoral thing a line they 496 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: won't cross. I was stunned and I just said, no, 497 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: we're killing people. You may never have to face that 498 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: decision when you find yourself at that line. Thou its ricin. 499 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: R's ricin, and somebody needs to just for once give 500 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: everybody the whole truth. I'm like, this is evil and 501 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: the only person who can sound the alarm is you. 502 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: I wasn't just going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. 503 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,239 Speaker 1: These are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal, thinks are 504 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: going to happen to this week out disgrace to our gun. 505 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: Evil pol be prosecute when power corrupts. Conscience is the 506 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the 507 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 508 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, 509 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,720 Speaker 1: and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember 510 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's 511 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: always time to touch incredible guests about important things. People 512 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: like me have been screaming for years. We've got to 513 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong. What 514 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: they're doing is evil. They will take things away, and 515 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: I can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl 516 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: Harbor moment or you and I both know what it 517 00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: took to just get through the day in New York 518 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: City and get home in one piece. And so the 519 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what 520 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,919 Speaker 1: I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting 521 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you 522 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable is 523 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. 524 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: Listen to the Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, 525 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure 526 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: to subscribe and share. She's a Hollywood Western She's Jack Harrouac, 527 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 1: but in a nap dress with braids. She is one 528 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: of the most important American children's authors of the twentieth century. 529 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 1: She's the basis for a television show still watched around 530 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: the world. Somebody somewhere is watching Little Us There. She's 531 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: been called a hero, a racist, a feminist, and a propagandist. 532 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: I think the harm is too great because It's just 533 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: one more thing that Native children have to endure. She 534 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: is Laura Ingles Wilder, author of the book series Little 535 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,959 Speaker 1: House on the Prairie. As a kid, I idolized Laura, 536 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 1: and last summer I went on the road in search 537 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: of the real Laura. We're literally on the prairie. What 538 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: I found was a complicated person alongside the complicated country 539 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: she represents. I'm Glennis McNicol and this is Wilder. Listen 540 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: to Wilder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever 541 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:43,399 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. After court adjourned for the day, 542 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,320 Speaker 1: Luke was interviewed on the courthouse steps. Luke, what was 543 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: it like to be on the witness standing now racking, 544 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: seeing the photos and stuff and bringing the past up 545 00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: and their thing is really horror my mental state. And 546 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: Geneva's your grandmother right correct? Talk about how this is 547 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 1: an effect that we've seen her crying or just talking 548 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: about her in the whole family house is effected. She 549 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: and went there a lot, and I wish you never 550 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: had to go through any of this. She's lost children 551 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: at a young age and and now she's deale with 552 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: all her other children and her grandchildren murdered, and I 553 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: think everything's getting closer to the end. I can't wait 554 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: tillabor really, so rest of our family go on with 555 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: our lives and I can't imagine. Can you even put 556 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: it into words? Whatever's like or a s nightmare? Living 557 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: in hell? Really? What are your thoughts about the Wageners? 558 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,720 Speaker 1: My thoughts about the Wideners. I hope they get everything 559 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: comes to them. When you examine that hat, did you 560 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: find would you believed to be a bullet hole in 561 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: the back of it? Yes, both sides agreed the traces 562 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: of Gary Rowden's blood were found on the door knob, 563 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: but not of the Wagoners. That seemed to make the 564 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: case for the defense. None of the evidence collected we're 565 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: examined with respect to that scene contained any DNA that 566 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: was linked to George Wagner, this defendant, Jake Wagner, Angela Wagner, 567 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: or Billy Wager. When are they all going to tie 568 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 1: this together? When are they going to point to George 569 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: being part of this conspiracy? Because none of the physical 570 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: evidence presented so far hid any of the Wagoners to 571 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: any of these crime scenes. I can tell you the 572 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: prosecutors are telling us behind the scenes it's coming. It's coming. 573 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: It's coming that we're all going to tie it together. 574 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: We're starting to see threads of it. Blade More on 575 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: that next time. For more information on the case and 576 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: elevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. 577 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: The Piked and Masker is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, 578 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: Scott DeGraw, Andrew Arnow and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 579 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff ta Music by Jared Aston. The 580 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: Piked and Masaker is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. 581 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 582 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 583 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The 584 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: girl Friends. It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and 585 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,399 Speaker 1: it is time to find a husband. There were four 586 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: Jewish doctors who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One 587 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: of them was of the Baron bat On paper, he 588 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: was perfect, but in reality, this guy's a wacko. He 589 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 1: choked and to the point she went unconscious. I would 590 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: call him and I would say, I know you killed 591 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: my sister. You can Listen to the Girlfriends on the 592 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, 593 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: I'm free and I'm rthy. We have spent the last 594 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,800 Speaker 1: twenty years building and working at some of the largest 595 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: companies in the world. We worked with some remarkable people 596 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: Rob mcalinney. When I see the people of Wrexham, I 597 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: grew up exactly like them. Check out the Arth and 598 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: Tree Arm show. That is a R D HI hand 599 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: s R I R A M show. Listen to the 600 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 1: Art and Stree Arm Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 601 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcast This is the 602 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: story of a man who's fascinated me. His name was 603 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name you don't forget. 604 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: He was a visionary who built a fortune as a 605 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: black man during Jim Crow during the Depression, but today 606 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 1: not many people know about him. Be rased, sort of 607 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: wiped out, and I wonder if this was done intentionally. 608 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 609 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm will daily. 610 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: For years, I've been on the road playing shows and 611 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: seeing America through live music this summer, I'll hit the 612 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 1: stage who Season two of Sound of Our Town ten cities, 613 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: twelve episodes every other Thursday, we explore the live music, 614 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,399 Speaker 1: venues and culture of a new American city. With each 615 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 1: new episode, our tour continues into the kind of venues 616 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,720 Speaker 1: you want to get to when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, 617 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: or Seattle. Listen to Sound of Our Town on the 618 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.