1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:14,910 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everybody. 3 00:00:15,180 --> 00:00:19,140 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Imagine a 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,900 Speaker 2: tiny town terrorized for years by a violent and intimidating 5 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:28,780 Speaker 2: man accused of arson and attempted murder who somehow kept 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,739 Speaker 2: escaping justice. Then one day, he's shot to death in 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: broad daylight. Dozens of people witnessed the murder, but nobody 8 00:00:36,740 --> 00:00:40,420 Speaker 2: will say who pulled the trigger. That's the true story 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,910 Speaker 2: behind In Broad Daylight, the best-selling book by my guest, 10 00:00:44,090 --> 00:00:48,709 Speaker 2: Harry McLean, who spent years investigating Ken Rex McElroy's murder 11 00:00:49,210 --> 00:00:52,229 Speaker 2: and uncovering the secrets of a town determined to keep 12 00:00:52,270 --> 00:00:55,590 Speaker 2: them buried. He later served as a consultant on the 13 00:00:55,630 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: movie of the same name. Okay, Harry, welcome to Killer Thriller. 14 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for talking. 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:01,620 Speaker 1: With me today. 16 00:01:02,230 --> 00:01:03,050 Speaker 3: I'm happy to be here. 17 00:01:03,490 --> 00:01:08,459 Speaker 2: I am just fascinated by this entire case and your 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: book and this movie. And let's start with something that's 19 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: pretty impossible to believe, which is that Ken McElroy was 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,090 Speaker 2: reportedly indicted more than 20 times, but convicted only once. 21 00:01:23,430 --> 00:01:27,410 Speaker 2: So how does one man become so feared that an 22 00:01:27,490 --> 00:01:30,490 Speaker 2: entire community feels powerless to stop him? 23 00:01:31,380 --> 00:01:33,220 Speaker 3: Well, you know, let me just add one thing. There 24 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 3: was more than just the town of Skidmore. He had 25 00:01:37,220 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 3: northwest Missouri, about six counties, terrified of him. And it 26 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,500 Speaker 3: ended up focusing on Skidmore because he was an illiterate 27 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 3: hog farmer who lived on the outside of Skidmore. He 28 00:01:50,530 --> 00:01:55,390 Speaker 3: managed to neutralize the entire criminal justice system of Nottoway County. 29 00:01:56,130 --> 00:02:00,670 Speaker 3: Judges would not hear his cases. Prosecutors resigned. Cops turned 30 00:02:00,690 --> 00:02:03,500 Speaker 3: around and left town when they heard he was there. 31 00:02:04,660 --> 00:02:07,740 Speaker 2: I mean, so this is all because they were afraid 32 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: of him, essentially. 33 00:02:09,820 --> 00:02:15,020 Speaker 3: He had a persona much larger than reality. It grew 34 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 3: the way those sorts of nightmares do. He became more 35 00:02:18,370 --> 00:02:21,650 Speaker 3: of a threat than he actually was. But he had 36 00:02:21,690 --> 00:02:27,109 Speaker 3: an ability to sense weakness in people and vulnerability and 37 00:02:27,169 --> 00:02:30,500 Speaker 3: how to exploit it. And he would threaten people. And 38 00:02:30,580 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: every fifth or tenth time he threatened somebody, he would 39 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 3: do it. So that made him even larger than he 40 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 3: really was. 41 00:02:38,660 --> 00:02:41,100 Speaker 1: Right, right. So then you never know, is it going 42 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,420 Speaker 1: to be me or the next person, right? Oh, God. 43 00:02:44,370 --> 00:02:47,510 Speaker 2: So you were working as an attorney in Denver when 44 00:02:47,550 --> 00:02:50,570 Speaker 2: you first read about this murder. And you said the 45 00:02:50,590 --> 00:02:53,329 Speaker 2: story jumped off the page because it involved a complete 46 00:02:53,389 --> 00:02:57,530 Speaker 2: breakdown of the legal system. So what made you decide 47 00:02:57,590 --> 00:02:59,330 Speaker 2: that you had to investigate it yourself? 48 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,030 Speaker 3: I mean, it was an unbelievable story just on the 49 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,310 Speaker 3: face of it because it was like, should have been 50 00:03:06,310 --> 00:03:10,410 Speaker 3: 1891 rather than 1981. Right. The way it was presented 51 00:03:11,010 --> 00:03:13,290 Speaker 3: in the Newsweek, in the first clip I saw, and 52 00:03:13,310 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 3: the way it was presented in all media in the 53 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 3: beginning was vigilante killing. And so the town was set 54 00:03:20,940 --> 00:03:24,660 Speaker 3: up as a bunch of vigilantes who killed a bad guy. That's, 55 00:03:24,700 --> 00:03:27,190 Speaker 3: you know, how many movies of the Old West is 56 00:03:27,230 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 3: that the main theme? And it could go on in 57 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,100 Speaker 3: 1981 and one person could have the impact that he 58 00:03:35,180 --> 00:03:38,860 Speaker 3: did to, I mean, and the second part of the 59 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 3: storyline was that he was killed in front of 50 60 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:47,220 Speaker 3: people were basically observing it. And as time went on, 61 00:03:47,620 --> 00:03:51,150 Speaker 3: grand juries met, all the witnesses came in and said 62 00:03:51,190 --> 00:03:55,250 Speaker 3: that they didn't see a thing. And so you had all, 63 00:03:55,270 --> 00:03:57,900 Speaker 3: you had the, you had the reign of terror, He 64 00:03:57,940 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 3: had the killing itself, and then he had what you 65 00:04:00,620 --> 00:04:04,170 Speaker 3: might call a cover-up, although I never found any evidence 66 00:04:04,210 --> 00:04:06,290 Speaker 3: that there was an agreement to cover up. They just 67 00:04:06,330 --> 00:04:09,090 Speaker 3: all decided individually they weren't going to tell the truth. 68 00:04:10,490 --> 00:04:15,010 Speaker 2: So you eventually spent almost three years in and around Skidmore, 69 00:04:15,130 --> 00:04:18,460 Speaker 2: and you described having a gun pulled on you, being 70 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: bitten by a dog, having your tires slashed. I mean, 71 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,140 Speaker 2: what was the most frightening moment for you, and did 72 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,620 Speaker 2: you ever seriously consider just abandoning the book? 73 00:04:29,339 --> 00:04:32,820 Speaker 3: I did, but I had a break. I got kind 74 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,849 Speaker 3: of taken in in a good way by a local 75 00:04:35,910 --> 00:04:39,690 Speaker 3: farm family with a real good reputation. And they kind 76 00:04:39,750 --> 00:04:43,510 Speaker 3: of backed me up and provided references and so forth. 77 00:04:43,529 --> 00:04:46,820 Speaker 3: But in the beginning, it was quite scary because the 78 00:04:46,940 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 3: FBI had been there two months trying to crack one 79 00:04:49,980 --> 00:04:51,860 Speaker 3: of these guys. All they had to do is crack 80 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,779 Speaker 3: one of them and they could prosecute the killers. And 81 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 3: they couldn't. And private detectives had been there. Magazine people 82 00:04:59,140 --> 00:05:02,539 Speaker 3: had been there. So the town was wrapped up really tight. 83 00:05:02,620 --> 00:05:04,420 Speaker 3: And I knew they would be because I grew up 84 00:05:04,460 --> 00:05:07,330 Speaker 3: in a small town in north central Nebraska. And I 85 00:05:07,370 --> 00:05:10,710 Speaker 3: could imagine the hostility that they would have as being 86 00:05:11,230 --> 00:05:16,070 Speaker 3: presented as a bunch of vigilante killers. And that's, in fact, 87 00:05:16,110 --> 00:05:19,510 Speaker 3: what I did find in the beginning. But basically, the 88 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: people in that town were nice people. And they don't 89 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 3: like being rude and nasty and pulling guns on people. 90 00:05:26,230 --> 00:05:28,070 Speaker 1: Right, so that was not their normal behavior. 91 00:05:28,460 --> 00:05:31,859 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they didn't like being put in that position. 92 00:05:32,220 --> 00:05:35,339 Speaker 3: And I told them I was a lawyer, and their 93 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:40,060 Speaker 3: whole thing was, why is the law not working now? 94 00:05:40,170 --> 00:05:42,970 Speaker 3: Why are you now investigating this case when you let 95 00:05:43,029 --> 00:05:46,270 Speaker 3: him roam free for 20 years? And that was their anger. 96 00:05:46,410 --> 00:05:49,770 Speaker 3: And finally, I mean, I said, look, I don't care 97 00:05:49,890 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 3: who the killers are, really, because— If these two guys 98 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: who did it, everybody said that they knew who did 99 00:05:56,540 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 3: it to me, somebody else was going to do it. 100 00:05:59,580 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 3: It had reached that point where it could not exist 101 00:06:02,610 --> 00:06:04,969 Speaker 3: there anymore. Somebody was going to lose it, either on 102 00:06:04,990 --> 00:06:08,890 Speaker 3: the main street of town like they did, or they 103 00:06:08,910 --> 00:06:12,110 Speaker 3: were going to catch him driving home some night at 104 00:06:12,110 --> 00:06:14,770 Speaker 3: 2 a.m. It was going to happen. 105 00:06:15,890 --> 00:06:19,670 Speaker 2: It is such an excellent point and question as to 106 00:06:19,910 --> 00:06:22,860 Speaker 2: why was he able to get away with terrorizing everyone 107 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,300 Speaker 2: for so long, and then now they want to prosecute 108 00:06:27,380 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 2: the person who killed him. 109 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: It is a good question. 110 00:06:31,290 --> 00:06:34,310 Speaker 2: So you described how McElroy would park outside of people's 111 00:06:34,370 --> 00:06:36,870 Speaker 2: homes and just simply stare at them. 112 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,900 Speaker 1: Which they cover very well in the film. 113 00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:47,020 Speaker 2: He allegedly intimidated witnesses and even put rattlesnakes in jurors' mailboxes. 114 00:06:47,540 --> 00:06:52,050 Speaker 2: So how did he become so effective at terrorizing people 115 00:06:52,250 --> 00:06:55,229 Speaker 2: without necessarily even laying a hand on them? 116 00:06:55,990 --> 00:06:58,670 Speaker 3: He had a sense, like I said, of people's weaknesses. 117 00:06:59,830 --> 00:07:03,369 Speaker 3: And he also had an understanding that in the criminal 118 00:07:03,410 --> 00:07:07,830 Speaker 3: justice system, you had to have a witness. for any crime. 119 00:07:07,870 --> 00:07:11,950 Speaker 3: But back in those days, there were very few forensics involved, 120 00:07:12,310 --> 00:07:15,130 Speaker 3: particularly in a small town like that. So it all 121 00:07:15,170 --> 00:07:18,740 Speaker 3: came down to witnesses. So he went after the witnesses 122 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 3: and he terrified them. He found friends of theirs or 123 00:07:24,420 --> 00:07:26,660 Speaker 3: relatives of theirs who would tell them what was going 124 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 3: to happen to him. And he came up with his 125 00:07:29,980 --> 00:07:33,500 Speaker 3: own witnesses. And that's, you know, no witness, no case 126 00:07:33,580 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 3: was the essence of his terror. He didn't think people 127 00:07:38,020 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: would have the courage to come in and testify against them. 128 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 3: And the longer he got away with it, the truer 129 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,980 Speaker 3: it became because then the people kind of lost faith 130 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 3: in each other. If I come to your house to 131 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:56,170 Speaker 3: help you out, then he's coming to my house tomorrow night. Right. Right. 132 00:07:56,370 --> 00:08:00,370 Speaker 1: It puts everyone, it's really chilling. 133 00:08:00,530 --> 00:08:06,090 Speaker 2: It's, it's such a disturbing, uh, And the movie, again, 134 00:08:06,130 --> 00:08:09,250 Speaker 2: does an excellent job of showing us that. 135 00:08:09,270 --> 00:08:11,380 Speaker 1: And one of the most. 136 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: Disturbing aspects of McElroy's life was his relationship with Trina McLeod. 137 00:08:17,140 --> 00:08:21,580 Speaker 2: And he reportedly began sexually abusing her when she was 138 00:08:21,620 --> 00:08:27,450 Speaker 2: just 12 years old, and she became pregnant at 14. 139 00:08:27,450 --> 00:08:31,410 Speaker 2: What did you uncover about that relationship and the violence 140 00:08:31,650 --> 00:08:32,250 Speaker 2: surrounding it? 141 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, he was sleeping with her mother first, 142 00:08:36,980 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 3: and then he slept with her, and then he slept 143 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 3: with both of them. And he had no sensibility or 144 00:08:42,980 --> 00:08:50,270 Speaker 3: conscience involving his sexual escapades. They were brutal. And to 145 00:08:50,290 --> 00:08:53,210 Speaker 3: the extent that her parents tried to stick up for him, 146 00:08:53,710 --> 00:08:55,849 Speaker 3: he went and burned their house down when they said 147 00:08:55,890 --> 00:08:57,910 Speaker 3: they weren't going to let him take her and shot 148 00:08:57,929 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 3: the dog right in front of Trina. And she was 12, 13. 149 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,860 Speaker 3: She was a little country girl. She was pretty, but 150 00:09:04,890 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 3: she was very unsophisticated. And as soon as she realized 151 00:09:08,059 --> 00:09:10,540 Speaker 3: that her parents weren't going to back her up, that 152 00:09:10,580 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 3: the law wasn't going to back her up, the law 153 00:09:12,220 --> 00:09:14,580 Speaker 3: knew what he was doing, that she was living out 154 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,940 Speaker 3: there with him. As soon as she realized she was 155 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 3: all by herself, what are you going to do? You're 156 00:09:19,420 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 3: going to attach to this person because it's the only 157 00:09:22,740 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 3: person who appears to care about you anymore. Right. 158 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:31,860 Speaker 2: It's, it is. So deeply upsetting and heartbreaking. And yeah, 159 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,150 Speaker 2: I mean, where would she go? What could she do? 160 00:09:35,770 --> 00:09:41,270 Speaker 2: It's really awful. He marries her, and then in that way, 161 00:09:41,330 --> 00:09:45,689 Speaker 2: he's protected from her being able to testify against him. 162 00:09:47,470 --> 00:09:51,910 Speaker 3: Finally, there was one prosecutor, and he had charged McElroy 163 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 3: with 13 counts of rape. This guy stood up. He 164 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,089 Speaker 3: was the first one who did it. And, McElroy's lawyer 165 00:10:01,170 --> 00:10:05,290 Speaker 3: went in and said to the parents, you have to consent. Well, 166 00:10:05,340 --> 00:10:07,500 Speaker 3: first of all, McElroy had to get divorced. He got 167 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 3: that done. And then he said to the parents, you 168 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,540 Speaker 3: will consent to her marrying McElroy. And when they said 169 00:10:14,580 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: they might not, that's when he burned their house down. 170 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 3: So then they turned around and said, okay, we will 171 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,890 Speaker 3: consent to the marriage. Trina, by this point, I don't 172 00:10:22,929 --> 00:10:26,729 Speaker 3: know what she was thinking exactly, but she did in 173 00:10:26,750 --> 00:10:28,870 Speaker 3: the end go, you know, go along and get married. 174 00:10:28,929 --> 00:10:32,290 Speaker 3: And so she was unable to testify against him. And 175 00:10:32,309 --> 00:10:35,429 Speaker 3: the prosecutor, he was hanging out there all by himself. 176 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:38,100 Speaker 3: And he said, look, if she's not going to stand 177 00:10:38,179 --> 00:10:41,700 Speaker 3: up for this. And of course she couldn't, it was unreasonable. 178 00:10:42,380 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: Of course. 179 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 3: Right. He just kind of, he, He could have gone 180 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:50,300 Speaker 3: in and tried to get the marriage undone based on 181 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:55,810 Speaker 3: some sort of fraud or coercion grounds, but he felt 182 00:10:55,890 --> 00:10:57,090 Speaker 3: like he had done what he could. 183 00:10:57,110 --> 00:11:02,130 Speaker 2: This girl, my heart really goes out to her. 184 00:11:02,410 --> 00:11:05,580 Speaker 3: By the end, just to your last point, she was 185 00:11:05,660 --> 00:11:09,260 Speaker 3: riding shotgun with him. She was so far moved into 186 00:11:09,340 --> 00:11:14,270 Speaker 3: his world that she was... either driving one of the 187 00:11:14,309 --> 00:11:17,570 Speaker 3: trucks behind his or in the truck with him as 188 00:11:17,610 --> 00:11:21,929 Speaker 3: they terrorized the witnesses in the case against him. And 189 00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:25,220 Speaker 3: she pulled guns on people in the alley, outside the bar, 190 00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 3: and so forth. She was very active in the terror 191 00:11:29,260 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: at the end. Very sad case. 192 00:11:32,140 --> 00:11:32,780 Speaker 1: It truly is. 193 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,620 Speaker 2: And I would like to believe, and I think it's true, 194 00:11:35,940 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 2: that that aspect of things would be looked at very 195 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 2: differently today in terms of victim's and sexual abuse and 196 00:11:44,540 --> 00:11:48,420 Speaker 2: all of those things that she was, you know, certainly 197 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,780 Speaker 2: not really in her right mind, I would guess, and 198 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: with no resources and no support. You've said that McElroy 199 00:11:59,860 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 2: was so successful at frightening witnesses that people would change 200 00:12:03,210 --> 00:12:06,390 Speaker 2: their stories after he showed up at their homes with 201 00:12:06,450 --> 00:12:09,069 Speaker 2: a shotgun. Was there anyone that stood up to him 202 00:12:09,210 --> 00:12:10,490 Speaker 2: and refused to be intimidated? 203 00:12:11,630 --> 00:12:14,610 Speaker 3: Well, that's how it all came to a head, was 204 00:12:14,650 --> 00:12:20,900 Speaker 3: that there was an elderly grocer in Skidmore. And he 205 00:12:20,980 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 3: was 72, 73. And McElroy, one of his, he had 206 00:12:25,340 --> 00:12:28,819 Speaker 3: about 13 kids by different women. And a couple of 207 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,380 Speaker 3: them went into the grocery store one day. And the 208 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:37,929 Speaker 3: little child picked up a couple of jawbreakers. And the 209 00:12:37,970 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 3: grocer's wife, who was played in the movie by did 210 00:12:42,780 --> 00:12:45,620 Speaker 3: a great job and she didn't she was an irascible 211 00:12:45,660 --> 00:12:49,950 Speaker 3: woman i interviewed her for way too many hours she 212 00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:53,630 Speaker 3: was harsh and kind of unpleasant and she didn't take 213 00:12:53,710 --> 00:12:56,469 Speaker 3: any from anybody and she told that girl to put 214 00:12:56,510 --> 00:13:00,770 Speaker 3: the jawbreakers back when she didn't i think i think 215 00:13:00,850 --> 00:13:02,970 Speaker 3: eventually she did but then they went out and told 216 00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:08,140 Speaker 3: trina that that the woman had accused the little girl 217 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 3: of stealing So that got back to McElroy, and that 218 00:13:11,220 --> 00:13:13,860 Speaker 3: was something that could never be tolerated by him. How 219 00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:18,410 Speaker 3: dare anyone ever accuse any of his family of stealing? 220 00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:24,110 Speaker 3: I mean, he was a great thief himself, so there's 221 00:13:24,130 --> 00:13:27,770 Speaker 3: some irony there. But in the end, he shot. He 222 00:13:27,809 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 3: was more offended that the male grocer would let his wife, 223 00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:38,460 Speaker 3: it's kind of a hard thing to explain, come after him. 224 00:13:39,250 --> 00:13:42,530 Speaker 3: So he wasn't that angry at her. He was angry 225 00:13:42,610 --> 00:13:47,809 Speaker 3: at Bo for not controlling his wife. Right. And he threatened, 226 00:13:48,110 --> 00:13:51,010 Speaker 3: he offered to give them a certain amount of money. 227 00:13:51,030 --> 00:13:56,300 Speaker 3: He would give the grocer $ 1, 000 if he would get 228 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,020 Speaker 3: his wife to go out and get into an official 229 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,780 Speaker 3: at Matrina. Well, in the end, he came around. He's 230 00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 3: driving between the grocery store and the bar. And there 231 00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:10,380 Speaker 3: are two or three boys standing around there and he 232 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,830 Speaker 3: pays them some money to leave to go inside the 233 00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:14,790 Speaker 3: bar and get a drink or something. And he shoots 234 00:14:14,809 --> 00:14:18,750 Speaker 3: the grocer. He, who is standing on a kind of 235 00:14:18,809 --> 00:14:21,370 Speaker 3: a deck at the back of the grocery store, walks 236 00:14:21,510 --> 00:14:24,570 Speaker 3: up and, and points the shotgun right at him. At 237 00:14:24,610 --> 00:14:27,190 Speaker 3: the last second, the grocer twitches, kind of moves a 238 00:14:27,210 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 3: little bit. So it tears his, tears half of his 239 00:14:29,980 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: neck and his shoulder off, but it doesn't kill him. And, uh, 240 00:14:34,180 --> 00:14:40,030 Speaker 3: McElroy took off then, um, Trina was with him at 241 00:14:40,090 --> 00:14:44,890 Speaker 3: that point for that event. But in the end, he 242 00:14:44,930 --> 00:14:48,610 Speaker 3: couldn't scare the grocer or the grocer's wife. Grocer's wife 243 00:14:48,630 --> 00:14:54,490 Speaker 3: was too cantankerous. And the grocer himself, Bo, was just, 244 00:14:54,530 --> 00:14:57,350 Speaker 3: he was at that point in his life where he 245 00:14:57,410 --> 00:15:01,010 Speaker 3: was not going to be intimidated. He went and McElroy 246 00:15:01,050 --> 00:15:03,490 Speaker 3: did all of this stuff, pulling shotguns on him, driving 247 00:15:03,530 --> 00:15:05,670 Speaker 3: by their house, blowing the shotguns off in the middle 248 00:15:05,690 --> 00:15:10,290 Speaker 3: of the night. and telling Bo's friends that he was 249 00:15:10,330 --> 00:15:14,890 Speaker 3: going to kill him if he testified. And he held up. 250 00:15:14,930 --> 00:15:18,070 Speaker 3: He actually held up. I mean, the whole world was 251 00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:21,250 Speaker 3: watching to see Bo cave and say at the end, no, 252 00:15:21,290 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 3: I didn't see who it was who put the shotgun 253 00:15:23,530 --> 00:15:27,540 Speaker 3: in my head. Well, he didn't. He went through the trial, 254 00:15:27,620 --> 00:15:33,150 Speaker 3: and he identified McElroy without any hesitation at all. And 255 00:15:33,610 --> 00:15:37,670 Speaker 3: he was convicted of an assault. Should have been attempted murder, but... Yeah, why. 256 00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:40,410 Speaker 1: Was that not attempted murder? I was confused by that, too. 257 00:15:40,690 --> 00:15:43,790 Speaker 3: Well, the DA didn't want to overload the jury. He 258 00:15:43,810 --> 00:15:47,850 Speaker 3: didn't want to make their... And you have to get 259 00:15:47,890 --> 00:15:50,470 Speaker 3: a feel for what that town was like. Well, this 260 00:15:50,510 --> 00:15:52,950 Speaker 3: was a town about 12 miles away, but what that 261 00:15:53,050 --> 00:15:57,340 Speaker 3: area was like. And I understand why he did it. 262 00:15:57,410 --> 00:15:59,190 Speaker 3: I'm not sure I can explain it, but if he 263 00:15:59,350 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 3: asked too much of them, call him a murderer... they 264 00:16:03,150 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 3: might be backing away somehow. 265 00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: Oh, I see. 266 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 3: So just convict him of assault. We can get him 267 00:16:09,660 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 3: gone for five to 10 years on that. And they 268 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,730 Speaker 3: got the conviction. First time in 20 years. Right. 269 00:16:17,750 --> 00:16:20,750 Speaker 2: So he received a two-year prison sentence, but was released 270 00:16:21,130 --> 00:16:24,350 Speaker 2: on bond while appealing. And you've said that he never 271 00:16:24,370 --> 00:16:27,890 Speaker 2: should have been released. Why was that decision so consequential? 272 00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, first of all, it's like you've got 273 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,860 Speaker 3: an angry bull and now you've just stuck him, you know, 274 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 3: with a sword. And now he's not only, I mean, 275 00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:39,650 Speaker 3: he's out of control now in anger and so forth. 276 00:16:39,850 --> 00:16:42,910 Speaker 3: And the judge knew that. That judge was a chicken. 277 00:16:42,950 --> 00:16:45,010 Speaker 3: He never talked to me and I nailed him pretty 278 00:16:45,050 --> 00:16:49,390 Speaker 3: good in the book. But so he went back and 279 00:16:49,450 --> 00:16:54,810 Speaker 3: he went after, he took, he wasn't supposed to carry 280 00:16:54,850 --> 00:16:56,869 Speaker 3: any weapons and he took a weapon into the bar 281 00:16:57,410 --> 00:17:02,220 Speaker 3: and And there were three people in there who were 282 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 3: going to testify. They actually called the D.A. up and said, OK, 283 00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 3: he's he's breaking his bond terms. And we want you know, 284 00:17:09,940 --> 00:17:12,940 Speaker 3: we want to want the bond revoked and put in jail. 285 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,530 Speaker 3: And the D.A. who had convicted him stuck with it 286 00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:20,330 Speaker 3: and said, OK, you guys bring me after David's saying 287 00:17:20,350 --> 00:17:23,110 Speaker 3: you saw him. And there was a rifle and we'll 288 00:17:23,150 --> 00:17:25,689 Speaker 3: get a hearing and we'll revoke him. We'll try and 289 00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:28,730 Speaker 3: revoke his bond. Well, the day of the hearing, so 290 00:17:28,790 --> 00:17:31,490 Speaker 3: all the town, this is kind of the irony of it, 291 00:17:31,850 --> 00:17:38,340 Speaker 3: the town gets cohesive around this. And the word spreads 292 00:17:38,380 --> 00:17:41,460 Speaker 3: that they're going to go up to this little town, 293 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 3: his name escapes me right now, and protect the witnesses, 294 00:17:47,220 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 3: the people who sent David, because they were convinced McElroy 295 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 3: was going to go after the witnesses and terrorize them 296 00:17:53,619 --> 00:17:56,270 Speaker 3: or kill them. So they got together 60, 70 of 297 00:17:56,290 --> 00:17:59,889 Speaker 3: them And they were going to drive the witnesses up 298 00:17:59,950 --> 00:18:02,330 Speaker 3: to the town to protect him in a big kind 299 00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:07,730 Speaker 3: of cavalcade. At the last minute, the hearing is canceled. 300 00:18:09,030 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 3: And they've got now 60 people that have gathered together. 301 00:18:12,260 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: And they realize if they do not follow through on this, 302 00:18:17,820 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 3: they're finished. McElroy will have them where he wants them. 303 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,859 Speaker 3: And if they've met 60 of them and he hears 304 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,949 Speaker 3: about it, he comes in to confront them. And he 305 00:18:28,010 --> 00:18:31,050 Speaker 3: sits in the tavern with Trina right beside him, his 306 00:18:31,109 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 3: truck out in front. They gather up the road, some 307 00:18:35,930 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 3: at the top of the hill, most of them within 308 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 3: 30 or 40 yards of where his truck is. And 309 00:18:42,660 --> 00:18:45,140 Speaker 3: they leave the barn, get in the truck, and two 310 00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 3: of them go for their rifles and blow his head off. 311 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:53,010 Speaker 1: It's like they finally snapped, right? I mean, that's essentially the... Yeah. 312 00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:55,510 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it was a very stupid thing to do. 313 00:18:56,650 --> 00:18:58,870 Speaker 3: because they could have caught him. I saw maps that 314 00:18:58,910 --> 00:19:01,770 Speaker 3: had been drawn on how they were going to hang 315 00:19:01,850 --> 00:19:04,130 Speaker 3: out in this little culvert, in this little ditch when 316 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:07,530 Speaker 3: he was on his way home. But to shoot him 317 00:19:07,550 --> 00:19:11,110 Speaker 3: in front of 50 witnesses, it was an ultimately stupid, 318 00:19:11,290 --> 00:19:15,530 Speaker 3: irrational thing to do. But they were no longer rational 319 00:19:15,609 --> 00:19:17,830 Speaker 3: about him. Right. 320 00:19:18,090 --> 00:19:20,429 Speaker 2: That's the feeling that even in watching the movie, it 321 00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:25,109 Speaker 2: feels like I became irrational in watching it and feeling like, honestly, 322 00:19:25,290 --> 00:19:30,620 Speaker 2: what would one do? It's like true terrorism, like he 323 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 2: was terrorizing these people. 324 00:19:32,180 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 3: You know, I can only tell you as an author, 325 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:39,420 Speaker 3: when you say that to me, that's the greatest compliment. 326 00:19:40,650 --> 00:19:44,570 Speaker 2: Yes, you should take it because it really, I felt like, 327 00:19:45,770 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, this is, you know, we consider, you know, terror, violence, 328 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 2: all of these things to be so kind of blatant 329 00:19:53,740 --> 00:19:57,859 Speaker 2: and direct. And while he certainly did some of those things, 330 00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:04,090 Speaker 2: it was really that just constant, like a shark or something, 331 00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:07,270 Speaker 2: just like the constant fear that people would have that 332 00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:07,990 Speaker 2: he would put in them. 333 00:20:08,090 --> 00:20:15,510 Speaker 1: It's very, very... well done and terrifying. So you've said 334 00:20:15,550 --> 00:20:16,790 Speaker 1: you don't believe. 335 00:20:16,510 --> 00:20:19,670 Speaker 2: The murder was a conspiracy involving the entire town and 336 00:20:19,730 --> 00:20:23,150 Speaker 2: that you, you, as you just said that you have 337 00:20:23,410 --> 00:20:25,730 Speaker 2: argued that two men made the decision to kill him, 338 00:20:26,170 --> 00:20:29,070 Speaker 2: but what convinced you that killing was planned by two 339 00:20:29,109 --> 00:20:32,629 Speaker 2: individuals rather than collectively organized? 340 00:20:33,490 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 3: It wasn't really planned. I think that they were, something 341 00:20:36,859 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 3: had to happen. That's what I was trying to say. And, 342 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 3: It was in its own reality at that point where 343 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,020 Speaker 3: he's sitting there at the bar inside and there's about 344 00:20:45,020 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 3: 20 people who followed him in the bar. And they 345 00:20:49,420 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: were making comments to him, which they never would have 346 00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:57,850 Speaker 3: made just by themselves. Right. So then a bunch of 347 00:20:57,869 --> 00:21:02,290 Speaker 3: them followed him outside. And the two people that I 348 00:21:02,350 --> 00:21:06,710 Speaker 3: believe killed him, and they're really, from the minute I 349 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,100 Speaker 3: got to town, there were only two names that I 350 00:21:09,180 --> 00:21:12,149 Speaker 3: ever heard So everybody kind of knew who it was. 351 00:21:12,910 --> 00:21:16,170 Speaker 3: Without a witness, you couldn't do anything. And it was 352 00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:22,580 Speaker 3: their bar that they were in, and they would close 353 00:21:22,619 --> 00:21:25,860 Speaker 3: when he came to town because the bar emptied. So 354 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,300 Speaker 3: they had to give an economic measure. Only that wasn't 355 00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:31,629 Speaker 3: the real thing. One of them, the killer, was a 356 00:21:31,690 --> 00:21:35,590 Speaker 3: hot-tempered cowboy. These were cowboys, not farmers. They were real strong, 357 00:21:35,810 --> 00:21:40,940 Speaker 3: real strong. cowboy hats rather than baseball, CD or baseball caps. 358 00:21:41,010 --> 00:21:45,310 Speaker 3: And they carried rifles in the back of the pickup. 359 00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:49,230 Speaker 3: And I think two of them, when they saw him leave, 360 00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:53,890 Speaker 3: they realized, I don't know, rationally or thought, we have 361 00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:57,929 Speaker 3: to take care of this. And they had been drinking. 362 00:21:58,030 --> 00:21:59,930 Speaker 3: One of them was a pretty heavy drinker. They walked 363 00:22:00,030 --> 00:22:03,580 Speaker 3: out the back door across the street to where both 364 00:22:03,619 --> 00:22:05,770 Speaker 3: their trucks were parked. And I think that two of 365 00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:08,650 Speaker 3: them knew what they were going to do. I think 366 00:22:08,670 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 3: one of them probably said, yeah, let's kill the son 367 00:22:11,060 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 3: of a bitch, you know. They went out there not 368 00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:16,409 Speaker 3: to join the crowd watching it, but to become, to 369 00:22:16,430 --> 00:22:18,129 Speaker 3: give the crowd something else to watch, you know. 370 00:22:32,970 --> 00:22:35,619 Speaker 2: Well, one of the most chilling details in your account 371 00:22:35,650 --> 00:22:39,540 Speaker 2: is that Trina reportedly saw Del Clement approaching with a 372 00:22:39,580 --> 00:22:42,619 Speaker 2: rifle and warned McElroy that he was about to be shot. 373 00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:45,830 Speaker 2: But you say that McElroy was lighting a cigarette and 374 00:22:45,890 --> 00:22:49,490 Speaker 2: didn't move. Do you think that he just simply believed 375 00:22:49,630 --> 00:22:51,109 Speaker 2: nobody would dare kill him? 376 00:22:51,910 --> 00:22:54,100 Speaker 3: Yes. And in a way, let me come in sideways. 377 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,180 Speaker 3: McElroy was played by Brian Dennehy in the movie. So good. 378 00:22:58,420 --> 00:22:59,379 Speaker 1: So good. 379 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 3: He was superb in it. And he captured that moment. 380 00:23:04,050 --> 00:23:06,909 Speaker 3: And I think it's true. I think McElroy knew that 381 00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:11,190 Speaker 3: if they, you know, that they had the weapons out, 382 00:23:11,810 --> 00:23:14,270 Speaker 3: he believed Trina. She knew these people. She'd been in 383 00:23:14,330 --> 00:23:16,109 Speaker 3: school with them and she knew who they were and 384 00:23:16,150 --> 00:23:20,210 Speaker 3: what they were going to do. And he really didn't 385 00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:22,950 Speaker 3: care that much in a sense because he was going 386 00:23:22,970 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 3: to go to prison and And he was getting older 387 00:23:25,940 --> 00:23:29,420 Speaker 3: and he wasn't quite having the same impact that he 388 00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:30,820 Speaker 3: used to. He was kind of a little bit over 389 00:23:30,859 --> 00:23:38,060 Speaker 3: the hill. And he wanted to make them into chickens. 390 00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:39,929 Speaker 3: He didn't think they had the guts to do it. 391 00:23:41,020 --> 00:23:43,290 Speaker 3: And if they did, then what the hell anyway, you know. 392 00:23:43,820 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 3: So he had to somehow get this across, Dennehy did, 393 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 3: the way he's lighting the cigarette. And he does it. 394 00:23:51,940 --> 00:23:54,020 Speaker 3: I mean, now he got it from the book that 395 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,460 Speaker 3: that's what I thought he did. But if you watch 396 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:59,180 Speaker 3: him do it, you kind of get that sense that 397 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,220 Speaker 3: he's challenging them to see if they got the guts 398 00:24:02,270 --> 00:24:03,790 Speaker 3: to blow his brains off. And they did. 399 00:24:05,770 --> 00:24:06,530 Speaker 1: It's so good. 400 00:24:06,590 --> 00:24:09,530 Speaker 2: He's so good in this, as is Marsha Gay Harden, 401 00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:13,350 Speaker 2: who is like, I just, I'm such a huge fan 402 00:24:13,369 --> 00:24:15,859 Speaker 2: of hers, and she has a really tough job playing 403 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: the character Trina, essentially. 404 00:24:18,340 --> 00:24:19,660 Speaker 1: She's so terrific, too. 405 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 3: Let me put a little story in there about her. 406 00:24:21,859 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, please. 407 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 3: She was, she's sitting next to McElroy when he's shot, 408 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 3: of course, and so his brains and her blood go 409 00:24:29,140 --> 00:24:34,410 Speaker 3: all over her. And when she's screaming, everybody said she was, 410 00:24:34,990 --> 00:24:36,929 Speaker 3: you know, screaming that she thought they were going to 411 00:24:36,950 --> 00:24:41,550 Speaker 3: kill her, too, which wasn't an unreasonable belief, but But 412 00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:43,950 Speaker 3: in the old West, you don't shoot women. I mean, 413 00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:46,610 Speaker 3: it was unreasonable. She was never in danger. They weren't 414 00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:49,070 Speaker 3: going to kill her. They would have lost the kind 415 00:24:49,090 --> 00:24:51,699 Speaker 3: of moral high ground. But anyway, so she's screaming, and 416 00:24:51,859 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 3: they come and take her out of the truck, and 417 00:24:54,260 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 3: she's more convinced they're going to kill her. Well, they 418 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 3: walk her up to the bank and put her in 419 00:24:57,500 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 3: the bank. But Marcia Gay Harden had to play that 420 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 3: scene of her screaming with her husband's guts, brains all 421 00:25:04,940 --> 00:25:08,900 Speaker 3: over her and blood. And she played, I'm sitting there 422 00:25:08,980 --> 00:25:13,169 Speaker 3: watching it, and she played it like, Five times, this screaming, 423 00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:15,870 Speaker 3: yelling thing. How in the world can you do that? 424 00:25:15,930 --> 00:25:18,350 Speaker 3: Like she was crazy. Well, that's what actors do. If 425 00:25:19,250 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 3: they ever see someone cook it up and pull it 426 00:25:21,890 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 3: off five times in 15 minutes. She was really good. 427 00:25:26,260 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: She is amazing. She should be in every movie going 428 00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:33,300 Speaker 1: forward for the rest of time. 429 00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:40,300 Speaker 2: So McElroy was struck by two bullets from two different weapons, 430 00:25:40,460 --> 00:25:43,500 Speaker 2: as we've said. So according to your reconstruction, his foot 431 00:25:43,580 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 2: pressed down on the accelerator as he died, sending the 432 00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:51,790 Speaker 2: truck's engine racing. What did witnesses tell you happened immediately afterward? 433 00:25:52,350 --> 00:25:54,609 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, that did happen. They thought what he 434 00:25:54,650 --> 00:25:58,070 Speaker 3: did was when he fell forward like that from the 435 00:25:58,130 --> 00:26:02,429 Speaker 3: blast in the back, his foot went down on the accelerator. 436 00:26:03,090 --> 00:26:05,750 Speaker 3: And the engine roared. And it set this, if you 437 00:26:05,790 --> 00:26:08,590 Speaker 3: can imagine the scene, it was one of my favorite 438 00:26:08,609 --> 00:26:11,129 Speaker 3: scenes to try and write to make the reader feel 439 00:26:11,369 --> 00:26:13,490 Speaker 3: what it was like in that town. Here this huge 440 00:26:13,570 --> 00:26:18,050 Speaker 3: monster was dead. And here's this loud sound kind of 441 00:26:18,170 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 3: celebrating it or putting this aura around it all. And 442 00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:27,219 Speaker 3: his blood is coming out onto the street in the 443 00:26:27,260 --> 00:26:31,100 Speaker 3: sand there. And some of them come up and they 444 00:26:31,140 --> 00:26:33,710 Speaker 3: look and they, try and see if he's really dead, 445 00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:38,980 Speaker 3: you know. And she's gone. She's one of the things 446 00:26:39,060 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 3: the townspeople used to say about, they were so harsh 447 00:26:42,619 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 3: on her that as she's running up the street, she's 448 00:26:45,340 --> 00:26:48,250 Speaker 3: peeing in her pants out of fear. And they would 449 00:26:48,290 --> 00:26:52,090 Speaker 3: repeat that whenever they got a chance because they were 450 00:26:52,550 --> 00:26:55,270 Speaker 3: as mad at her or angry at her as being 451 00:26:55,310 --> 00:26:55,750 Speaker 3: a part of it. 452 00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:59,090 Speaker 2: But So after he was shot and no one called 453 00:26:59,109 --> 00:27:03,449 Speaker 2: an ambulance, was everyone in shock, or do you think 454 00:27:03,470 --> 00:27:06,530 Speaker 2: they all just decided we're not going to help him? 455 00:27:07,130 --> 00:27:11,710 Speaker 3: Shock, yeah. I mean, one of the things that totally 456 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,409 Speaker 3: defeats this vigilante theory is that those farmers, most of 457 00:27:16,430 --> 00:27:21,180 Speaker 3: them high school at best, were not stupid. They weren't 458 00:27:21,220 --> 00:27:24,020 Speaker 3: going to make themselves into witnesses for a killing. If 459 00:27:24,060 --> 00:27:27,350 Speaker 3: they had any instinct, any thought, that that was going 460 00:27:27,369 --> 00:27:29,250 Speaker 3: to happen, they would have got the hell out of town. 461 00:27:30,390 --> 00:27:33,550 Speaker 3: Why would they want to watch it? They could read 462 00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:37,790 Speaker 3: about it. So they really had no idea that it 463 00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:43,820 Speaker 3: was going to happen. And some of them said when 464 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 3: they heard the shots, they jumped between the trucks or 465 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,260 Speaker 3: between the building, and when they stood up, they didn't 466 00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 3: see anything. And that was kind of the common story, 467 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,550 Speaker 3: but there was never any group decisions Amongst those farmers, 468 00:27:57,910 --> 00:27:59,230 Speaker 3: what they were going to say or how they were 469 00:27:59,250 --> 00:28:05,150 Speaker 3: going to say it. They had been friends since grade school. 470 00:28:05,670 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 3: They kind of thought in the same terms. And they 471 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 3: all kind of said these things. But he sat there 472 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,700 Speaker 3: for over an hour dead. Nobody in the town ever 473 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,500 Speaker 3: did call an ambulance. Nobody in the town ever called 474 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,380 Speaker 3: the law. Trina got up in the bank and she 475 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,850 Speaker 3: called his brother out on the ranch. And he called 476 00:28:25,890 --> 00:28:28,220 Speaker 3: the cops. You can make a case that he would 477 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 3: have sat there dead for another three or four hours 478 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,810 Speaker 3: before somebody came and got him. 479 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,750 Speaker 2: So she calls the brother, and then she also identified 480 00:28:36,790 --> 00:28:40,430 Speaker 2: Del Clement as a shooter, but no one was prosecuted. 481 00:28:40,530 --> 00:28:42,650 Speaker 1: What happened to Trina afterwards? 482 00:28:44,030 --> 00:28:47,550 Speaker 3: It's really sad. Well, it's sad, but it also has 483 00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:52,470 Speaker 3: a happy ending in a way. Trina went south to 484 00:28:52,590 --> 00:28:55,750 Speaker 3: the Ozarks where her parents, her parents who had deserted her, were. 485 00:28:57,260 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 3: And in the beginning, she stood up for him. If 486 00:28:59,270 --> 00:29:02,730 Speaker 3: you go back and look at the news conferences, she's 487 00:29:03,030 --> 00:29:07,230 Speaker 3: saying the shooters were cowards and he was a good man. 488 00:29:07,310 --> 00:29:10,810 Speaker 3: He loved his kids and loved me. And she's adamant 489 00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:15,510 Speaker 3: about it. I finally got a conversation with her in person. 490 00:29:17,730 --> 00:29:19,230 Speaker 3: Probably about that time. It was about two and a 491 00:29:19,230 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 3: half years later. And she remarried down in this little 492 00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:29,290 Speaker 3: town in the Ozarks. and started her life over again. 493 00:29:29,370 --> 00:29:35,300 Speaker 3: She had three children, I believe, either two or three. 494 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 3: She married a guy who I met who was a 495 00:29:37,900 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 3: strong local, farmer down there. And they put a life together. 496 00:29:43,140 --> 00:29:44,780 Speaker 3: It was really a happy ending for her. 497 00:29:44,980 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: Oh, wow. 498 00:29:46,580 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm happy to hear that. 499 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 3: And then she died of cancer about 10 years ago. 500 00:29:50,940 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 3: But she did, she was, to me, when I talked 501 00:29:54,260 --> 00:29:59,090 Speaker 3: to her, she had just started leaving the whole McElroy 502 00:29:59,130 --> 00:30:02,170 Speaker 3: thing behind. I think this... This man said, because they 503 00:30:02,190 --> 00:30:04,290 Speaker 3: were going to make a movie out of it. And 504 00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:06,110 Speaker 3: they had the deal all set up and she backed 505 00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:08,730 Speaker 3: out of it. She backed out of about $ 300, 000 at 506 00:30:08,810 --> 00:30:14,410 Speaker 3: the end, much for her children's benefit. Right. And I 507 00:30:14,430 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: think this guy had a lot to do with it 508 00:30:16,740 --> 00:30:18,540 Speaker 3: and say, look, we can start our life over. You 509 00:30:18,580 --> 00:30:20,180 Speaker 3: need to leave this whole thing behind. 510 00:30:21,980 --> 00:30:24,500 Speaker 1: Gosh, this is just so fascinating. 511 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,610 Speaker 2: So you were an attorney as well as an investigative reporter. Writer, 512 00:30:29,770 --> 00:30:35,310 Speaker 2: did promising confidentiality ever create a moral or legal dilemma 513 00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:37,750 Speaker 2: for you? Like, what if you learned something that could 514 00:30:37,770 --> 00:30:39,890 Speaker 2: have resulted in a murder prosecution? 515 00:30:40,490 --> 00:30:42,990 Speaker 3: That didn't happen in this case. It's happened in some 516 00:30:43,050 --> 00:30:47,550 Speaker 3: other books. And it kind of, I know other authors 517 00:30:47,630 --> 00:30:49,690 Speaker 3: who've gotten in trouble with that, where they get a 518 00:30:49,730 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 3: piece of information from somebody and it has the potential 519 00:30:54,450 --> 00:30:57,140 Speaker 3: to be a part of a murder investigation. 520 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 521 00:30:57,930 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 3: I didn't run into that. What I told people was 522 00:31:03,660 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 3: it's a real process that I learned. First of all, 523 00:31:05,660 --> 00:31:06,980 Speaker 3: I just go up and talk to them and say, 524 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,780 Speaker 3: I'm here. I'm going to stay around. Other people that 525 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,420 Speaker 3: had come in there, like from Playboy and Rolling Stone, 526 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 3: kind of dropped out of an airplane from New Jersey 527 00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 3: and sat there for like six days and wrote exploitive junk. 528 00:31:20,460 --> 00:31:22,290 Speaker 3: I said, I'm going to get to the bottom of this. 529 00:31:22,910 --> 00:31:26,090 Speaker 3: And I can, what they always said was, He got 530 00:31:26,130 --> 00:31:28,370 Speaker 3: away with this for 20 years. These trials never went 531 00:31:28,410 --> 00:31:30,550 Speaker 3: to cases, never went to trial, blah, blah, blah, blah. 532 00:31:30,750 --> 00:31:34,310 Speaker 3: But they couldn't prove it. And the journalists weren't going 533 00:31:34,330 --> 00:31:35,970 Speaker 3: to take the time to go out to these other 534 00:31:36,010 --> 00:31:39,170 Speaker 3: towns and dig into the files if they were even 535 00:31:39,250 --> 00:31:41,430 Speaker 3: able to make that case. So I said, I'm going 536 00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:42,710 Speaker 3: to do that. I'm going to go back to every 537 00:31:42,750 --> 00:31:45,530 Speaker 3: one of those cases and I'm going to prove what 538 00:31:45,610 --> 00:31:49,850 Speaker 3: you guys are saying is true. And that's exactly what 539 00:31:49,910 --> 00:31:52,870 Speaker 3: I did. And people often say, you know, I'm kind 540 00:31:52,890 --> 00:31:55,460 Speaker 3: of wandering now, but people often say, what was the 541 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,430 Speaker 3: town's reaction to your book? And I said, I never 542 00:31:58,530 --> 00:32:03,130 Speaker 3: heard his, McElroy's kids didn't like it. But people in 543 00:32:03,190 --> 00:32:09,850 Speaker 3: the town never criticized it, bought copies. And when someone, 544 00:32:10,190 --> 00:32:13,010 Speaker 3: they used it when someone from, people still drive through 545 00:32:13,070 --> 00:32:15,610 Speaker 3: Skidmore to this day because there's a map in the book. 546 00:32:16,190 --> 00:32:18,730 Speaker 3: And they want to go where McElroy's house was. They 547 00:32:18,750 --> 00:32:20,630 Speaker 3: want to go where the shooting was. They want to 548 00:32:20,670 --> 00:32:23,750 Speaker 3: see where the tavern and all this stuff. And so 549 00:32:23,770 --> 00:32:26,290 Speaker 3: when they stop the locals and say, now, where was 550 00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:29,450 Speaker 3: McElroy struck when he was killed? They'll say, go buy 551 00:32:29,490 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 3: the book in broad daylight. It'll tell you everything you 552 00:32:31,910 --> 00:32:32,430 Speaker 3: need to know. 553 00:32:33,170 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 2: You once went to a rodeo at Del Clement's ranch 554 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: and followed him into a barn to introduce yourself. 555 00:32:39,660 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: And he ordered you off the property. 556 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,479 Speaker 2: Can you take me inside that moment? Were you afraid 557 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,719 Speaker 2: of what he might do or how did all that go? 558 00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:54,910 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the scariest moment was that. But I 559 00:32:55,250 --> 00:32:59,550 Speaker 3: had to do it. I mean, you can't not do 560 00:32:59,630 --> 00:33:04,739 Speaker 3: something because, and I thought, he's less likely, first of all, 561 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,620 Speaker 3: to get him before he's drinking because he was a 562 00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 3: serious alcoholic and do it on his property and get 563 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,870 Speaker 3: him alone so he didn't have to show off to 564 00:33:12,910 --> 00:33:16,100 Speaker 3: somebody else. And so I kind of waited until he 565 00:33:16,140 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 3: went to his barn. It just so happened there was 566 00:33:18,340 --> 00:33:22,740 Speaker 3: a rifle in there. And I said, you know, I'm not, 567 00:33:22,780 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 3: I'm just trying to, you know, blah, blah, blah, some 568 00:33:25,180 --> 00:33:26,970 Speaker 3: rap to him to try and calm him down. And 569 00:33:27,570 --> 00:33:29,310 Speaker 3: he said, I think it's time for you to leave. 570 00:33:29,330 --> 00:33:32,450 Speaker 3: And I kept going. He turned around like this and 571 00:33:32,470 --> 00:33:35,970 Speaker 3: he said, apparently you didn't hear me. I made a 572 00:33:36,010 --> 00:33:37,930 Speaker 3: motion for the gun. I said, okay, I'm gone. I 573 00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:45,170 Speaker 3: think if he'd have been drinking. Right. It could have 574 00:33:45,210 --> 00:33:45,790 Speaker 3: gone bad. 575 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,380 Speaker 2: So you said that you have a strong idea of 576 00:34:05,580 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 2: who fired the second shot but have declined publicly to 577 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,219 Speaker 2: identify that person. Is there anything more that you're willing 578 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,620 Speaker 2: to tell us about the second shooter or what convinced you? 579 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,780 Speaker 3: Well, a lot of people said it. And there was 580 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,509 Speaker 3: a theory that there was a third gun, that there 581 00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:25,210 Speaker 3: was a, it's called a third gun theory, that there 582 00:34:25,250 --> 00:34:30,370 Speaker 3: was a shotgun. It was never really established. The investigation 583 00:34:31,230 --> 00:34:35,750 Speaker 3: was so sloppily done at that point. They didn't even 584 00:34:36,469 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 3: rope off the truck or anything. People were going in 585 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,620 Speaker 3: the truck, picking up. McElroy's teeth and so forth. And 586 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,500 Speaker 3: so some people said they heard a shotgun and there 587 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 3: was some indentations in the truck that made it look 588 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,469 Speaker 3: like it could have been shotgun pellets. But I was 589 00:34:54,530 --> 00:34:59,930 Speaker 3: never able to sustain that. And that would have been 590 00:34:59,969 --> 00:35:01,650 Speaker 3: the third killer if there was one. And he was 591 00:35:01,710 --> 00:35:05,209 Speaker 3: friends with the other two. So it is possible. But 592 00:35:05,450 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 3: a shotgun sounds radically different than a rifle. And the 593 00:35:10,060 --> 00:35:13,900 Speaker 3: people that were there said they didn't hear it. There 594 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 3: were deer hunters there. They would have known the difference. 595 00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:21,260 Speaker 3: And the second killer, the second person, is still alive. 596 00:35:22,219 --> 00:35:26,589 Speaker 3: So Del Clement's dead. The alleged shotgun killer is dead. 597 00:35:27,489 --> 00:35:31,590 Speaker 3: But the one who was normally identified as the second 598 00:35:31,630 --> 00:35:34,750 Speaker 3: shooter is still alive. So I don't want to get 599 00:35:35,330 --> 00:35:38,650 Speaker 3: into a defamation. He's not going to do it, but 600 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,549 Speaker 3: there's no real point to it because it's not me 601 00:35:44,590 --> 00:35:46,709 Speaker 3: to make the criminal justice system work. And I couldn't 602 00:35:46,750 --> 00:35:48,870 Speaker 3: prove it anyway, you know? Right. 603 00:35:49,330 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 2: Did you expect Dell to give like a deathbed confession? 604 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,530 Speaker 3: Not Dell, but a lot of other people out of, 605 00:35:56,540 --> 00:36:00,060 Speaker 3: out of the 50 or so witnesses who saw it. 606 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: Out of guilt, do you think? 607 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 3: Guilt or, you know, they were, um, They weren't, but 608 00:36:06,020 --> 00:36:09,010 Speaker 3: they were religious in a sense, but not really religious. 609 00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:11,950 Speaker 3: I mean, it wasn't a religious community. They had two churches, 610 00:36:12,770 --> 00:36:16,529 Speaker 3: but it's not like they were a Baptist down in Louisiana. 611 00:36:17,330 --> 00:36:20,290 Speaker 3: And so, but still they were religious in a way. 612 00:36:20,310 --> 00:36:23,109 Speaker 3: And I kept waiting for one of them to give 613 00:36:23,130 --> 00:36:26,450 Speaker 3: a deathbed confession. And I'd hear, well, this guy died, 614 00:36:26,510 --> 00:36:29,310 Speaker 3: that guy died, this guy died. They had died and 615 00:36:29,350 --> 00:36:32,340 Speaker 3: nobody ever did. Del was, by the time he died, 616 00:36:33,750 --> 00:36:38,049 Speaker 3: was killed in an automobile crash. So drunk that he 617 00:36:38,070 --> 00:36:40,890 Speaker 3: was such an alcoholic that he really wasn't worth much. 618 00:36:40,910 --> 00:36:45,569 Speaker 3: I don't know if he even considered it. I mean, 619 00:36:45,630 --> 00:36:47,820 Speaker 3: he was gone. He was gone by the time he died. 620 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,660 Speaker 2: Right. So you served as a consultant on the movie, 621 00:36:51,820 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 2: and what did that actually involve for you? And was 622 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 2: there anything that you strongly disagreed with in what they 623 00:37:00,420 --> 00:37:01,020 Speaker 2: did in the film? 624 00:37:01,460 --> 00:37:04,240 Speaker 3: No, I thought, I mean... You know, I hear authors 625 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,210 Speaker 3: complain about what happens to their books when they're made 626 00:37:07,370 --> 00:37:10,649 Speaker 3: into movies. But it's a different art form, you know. 627 00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:13,270 Speaker 3: And you have to expect that. You have to expect 628 00:37:13,330 --> 00:37:21,580 Speaker 3: some spaces filled creatively. And so I didn't come at 629 00:37:21,620 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 3: it with that kind of protective sense. You've got to 630 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 3: tell a movie the way. And what I thought they, 631 00:37:26,340 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, the terror that they had to 632 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:35,049 Speaker 3: project came through Brian Dennehy. And he was able to 633 00:37:35,150 --> 00:37:39,489 Speaker 3: do that just as good with holding a shotgun and 634 00:37:39,550 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 3: looking into the camera. He was able to pull that. 635 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 3: And that was the big thing, was that you had 636 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,540 Speaker 3: to understand how terrified the people were. You didn't understand that, 637 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,859 Speaker 3: and you wouldn't understand why they killed him. You would 638 00:37:52,910 --> 00:37:55,590 Speaker 3: judge him for it. You still might judge him anyway, 639 00:37:55,650 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 3: but you wouldn't get it. You wouldn't feel it. And 640 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 3: he did that, and he pulled that off. And that 641 00:38:01,860 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 3: kind of made the movie work. Well, I tell you, 642 00:38:05,340 --> 00:38:11,170 Speaker 3: the politics on a movie set are real bad. I mean, 643 00:38:11,850 --> 00:38:14,049 Speaker 3: you've got the director, you've got the producer, you've got 644 00:38:14,110 --> 00:38:19,590 Speaker 3: all the sub-directors and producers. They got in a fight, 645 00:38:20,790 --> 00:38:24,260 Speaker 3: which went kind of bad at the end. But my 646 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:27,500 Speaker 3: experience of it was, Cloris Leachman came up to me 647 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 3: one day, And remember, she's the grocer's wife. She says, 648 00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:35,190 Speaker 3: don't you think, because I had, of course, seen the script, 649 00:38:35,210 --> 00:38:38,650 Speaker 3: don't you think that I need to have more lines 650 00:38:38,750 --> 00:38:42,270 Speaker 3: in the scene than in the grocery store? And first 651 00:38:42,510 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 3: of all, I'm going, at your age, with your accomplishments, 652 00:38:47,060 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 3: do you worry about something like that? But we are, 653 00:38:50,219 --> 00:38:54,779 Speaker 3: you know? And I said, well, actually, of course, I 654 00:38:54,820 --> 00:38:56,380 Speaker 3: guess when I think about it, yeah, you could use 655 00:38:56,420 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 3: some more lines in there. Well, She went back and 656 00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 3: told the director that the author thinks that I need more. 657 00:39:03,460 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 3: And they took it to the side and said, if 658 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,580 Speaker 3: you get into this, you're going to have to leave 659 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:08,030 Speaker 3: the set. 660 00:39:08,570 --> 00:39:11,230 Speaker 2: I was going to say, it takes a lot of 661 00:39:11,310 --> 00:39:14,470 Speaker 2: humility and confidence for you to say it's a different 662 00:39:14,510 --> 00:39:17,669 Speaker 2: medium and they need to do this the way they 663 00:39:17,710 --> 00:39:21,210 Speaker 2: need to creatively do it, which is really the best 664 00:39:21,330 --> 00:39:26,430 Speaker 2: attitude to have. But I understand because the actress... She said, 665 00:39:26,450 --> 00:39:28,580 Speaker 2: Cloris is smart. She knows this is the writer. 666 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,300 Speaker 1: He's the author. He's going to. if he says this 667 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,060 Speaker 1: like she I mean that it makes me. 668 00:39:33,020 --> 00:39:36,380 Speaker 2: Laugh because I understand those dynamics very very well. 669 00:39:36,860 --> 00:39:38,660 Speaker 3: And they had a you know they had a wardrobe 670 00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 3: set and one of the not too long after this 671 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 3: happened the one of the wardrobe women came up to 672 00:39:45,540 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 3: me and said they're putting they're putting McElroy in a 673 00:39:48,739 --> 00:39:54,140 Speaker 3: leather sports coat And he never had a leather sports coat, 674 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,259 Speaker 3: did he? I mean, he, and the truth was he 675 00:39:56,300 --> 00:39:58,390 Speaker 3: walked around in the winter in a t-shirt. That was 676 00:39:58,430 --> 00:40:00,970 Speaker 3: his big thing. He wouldn't, he didn't know a sports 677 00:40:00,989 --> 00:40:05,070 Speaker 3: coat from a dead cat, you know? And so I said, whoa, 678 00:40:05,110 --> 00:40:07,350 Speaker 3: I'm staying out of this one. You're not going to 679 00:40:07,370 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 3: get me quoted on this one. Sorry. 680 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:17,100 Speaker 2: You've said that although residents publicly insisted McElroy deserved what 681 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 2: happened to him and you believe many privately struggled with 682 00:40:20,460 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 2: the fact that a murder had occurred at all in 683 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 2: their town, as a lawyer, do you personally believe the 684 00:40:25,900 --> 00:40:26,860 Speaker 2: killing was justified? 685 00:40:27,489 --> 00:40:31,290 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, basically is what they call the basic 686 00:40:31,350 --> 00:40:36,750 Speaker 3: social contract in a civilized society is we will let 687 00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:39,969 Speaker 3: you enforce the law. We won't go take care of 688 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,420 Speaker 3: of lawbreakers ourselves but what you have to do is 689 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 3: you have to do it you have to fulfill those 690 00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:52,109 Speaker 3: functions and if you don't and that contract is off 691 00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:56,210 Speaker 3: um and we're looking out for ourselves now because you're 692 00:40:56,230 --> 00:40:58,830 Speaker 3: not looking out for us so it got to a 693 00:40:58,850 --> 00:41:03,210 Speaker 3: real primitive state you know right right uncivilized in a 694 00:41:03,250 --> 00:41:08,390 Speaker 3: way where um they genuinely thought that he was going 695 00:41:08,430 --> 00:41:11,620 Speaker 3: to he would, he, he was probably going to kill 696 00:41:11,660 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 3: those guys who were, uh, signed the affidavit and life was, 697 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:21,350 Speaker 3: life was, uh, at stake. Right. And that this, now that, 698 00:41:21,410 --> 00:41:24,710 Speaker 3: that implies a group decision to kill him. And there 699 00:41:24,750 --> 00:41:27,350 Speaker 3: was not a group decision, but afterwards when you talk 700 00:41:27,370 --> 00:41:32,530 Speaker 3: to him, I thought the women would, uh, come around 701 00:41:32,590 --> 00:41:37,230 Speaker 3: and say murder's wrong regardless. Um, just because I knew 702 00:41:37,250 --> 00:41:42,350 Speaker 3: them and they didn't. They were adamant as the man. 703 00:41:42,670 --> 00:41:47,379 Speaker 3: What they'd say was they deserve, if I can remember right, 704 00:41:47,410 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 3: they deserve a medal for doing it and a condemnation 705 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,839 Speaker 3: for the way they did it. In other words, why 706 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,780 Speaker 3: did you kill them on the main street of town? 707 00:41:56,980 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 3: Bring all this hell down on our heads, you know? 708 00:42:00,020 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: Oh, right, right. I mean, it is fascinating. 709 00:42:04,380 --> 00:42:08,819 Speaker 2: I mean, and We are obviously still fascinated by it 710 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,500 Speaker 2: because we're talking about it today. 711 00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:15,060 Speaker 3: 47 years later, the New York Times picked it up 712 00:42:15,580 --> 00:42:19,820 Speaker 3: June 4th. And this story has been retold. And they 713 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,029 Speaker 3: decided they were going to tell the whole story all 714 00:42:22,090 --> 00:42:24,510 Speaker 3: over again. And I went out back to Skidmore with 715 00:42:24,530 --> 00:42:27,469 Speaker 3: them and gave big interviews. I mean, it's like every 716 00:42:27,510 --> 00:42:30,070 Speaker 3: now and then someone goes, I've never heard that before. 717 00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:31,490 Speaker 1: How'd that happen? 718 00:42:31,610 --> 00:42:32,030 Speaker 3: Right. 719 00:42:32,590 --> 00:42:34,380 Speaker 1: And I remember I was, I'm 55. 720 00:42:34,370 --> 00:42:39,469 Speaker 2: So that when the movie came out, I was little enough. 721 00:42:39,489 --> 00:42:42,430 Speaker 2: But when this happened, I was 10. And so I 722 00:42:42,469 --> 00:42:46,509 Speaker 2: didn't know about that. But I remember the movie coming 723 00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:51,210 Speaker 2: out and feeling like, oh my god. And I didn't 724 00:42:51,250 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 2: see it at the time, but feeling like, wait a second. 725 00:42:53,510 --> 00:42:55,819 Speaker 2: Did this happen? How have I never heard of this? 726 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,419 Speaker 2: How is this not, you know? 727 00:42:58,060 --> 00:43:04,580 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. Well, Harry, this has been so fascinating. 728 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,500 Speaker 2: You're such an articulate and interesting man. I'm in awe 729 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,259 Speaker 2: of the things you've done here. So In Broad Daylight 730 00:43:14,420 --> 00:43:20,940 Speaker 2: is streaming online and on Harry's website, which is harrymaclean.com. 731 00:43:21,820 --> 00:43:24,739 Speaker 2: And the book is available there. And thank you so 732 00:43:24,780 --> 00:43:25,540 Speaker 2: much for your time. 733 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:30,330 Speaker 3: You're quite welcome. I've enjoyed our conversation. Great. 734 00:43:30,350 --> 00:43:31,170 Speaker 1: It's been my pleasure. 735 00:43:31,350 --> 00:43:32,569 Speaker 3: Thank you. back.