1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you. You 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: want you to know. No fooling fellow conspiracy realists. As 10 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: we're listening, we are coming to you live ish from 11 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: the absolute pinnacle of human evolution so far. Think about it. 12 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: You've got phones that have smart in the name smartphones. 13 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: You can get hot pockets with almost anything in them. 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: Humanity hasn't gotten everything right, quite the opposite. But you 15 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: gotta hand it to these scrappy primates, right, they struggled, 16 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: they strove, they persevered, you know they strode, had those 17 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: primates well, U strove is actually also the correct past 18 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: tense of strive. It's not striven, like I've been saying 19 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: all these years. Dang, it depends, it depends. But it's 20 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: also American English, so we can we can kind of 21 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: do what we want as long as people understand us. 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: And that's another evolution that humans achieved. The ability to 23 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: use language is amazing. You know, you read a book 24 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: from hundreds of years ago, and you're hearing the thoughts 25 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: of a dead person in your own mind. I don't 26 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: think people understand how cool and creepy reading is. But 27 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: but but there we are, right. I mean, all of this, 28 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: all of these millions of other primates that we will 29 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: never meet, play your role in bringing you here to 30 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: this podcast today. And there are frankly unanswerable questions that 31 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: remain about the origin and growth of human civilization. But 32 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: right now most scientists are largely on the same page 33 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: sort of uh, in the idea that this is the 34 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: first time this has happened. But what an interesting question 35 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: to ask, what if it's not, Yeah, at least the 36 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: first time that a creature has evolved on the planet 37 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: that is intelligent enough to make machines that make other things. Right, That, 38 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: in particular, I think is important for this episode. Industrialization, 39 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 1: growing a civilization large enough to support huge populations in 40 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: one place. Yeah, and now, and and that's an excellent 41 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: way to kind of narrow the scope here too, because, 42 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: as we'll find, we need to narrow the scope as 43 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,839 Speaker 1: much as possible. But you might be asking yourself, guys, 44 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: what are you talking about. I don't read the headlines 45 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: or titles of the show I got I'm a mover 46 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: and a shaker. I got stuff going on in the 47 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: modern world. I got stuff to move and things to shake. Well, 48 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: here are the facts. Let's start at the beginning. You know, 49 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: Earth happens billions of years ago. Uh. Humanity is a 50 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: life form that still doesn't understand how the universe came about. 51 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: The current theory is the big or the Big Bang, 52 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: you know. Uh. And from there we know that it 53 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: is generally accepted right now that the things we call 54 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: humans evolved from other primates on the African continent. If 55 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: you look at the lineage as far as people know, 56 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: from a you know, very imperfect fossil record, then you 57 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: can see that good old Homo sapiens that I like 58 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: to call Homo sapiens diverged right uh, from the lineage 59 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: that would later lead to our friends, the chimpanzees, the bonobos. 60 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: This happened somewhere between thirteen million and five million years ago. 61 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: So the ballpark guests, there has millions of years of 62 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: maybe maybe some time in here. You don't give it. 63 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: Take eight million when you zoom out far enough. What's 64 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: eight million between friends? You know? And really quickly, just 65 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: wanna voice a correction here. Uh, dear friend of the show, 66 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: Christie pointed out that when I was making a reference 67 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: to the movie, Um, nope, I said that the ape 68 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: that is depicted in it was a an orangutan. Is 69 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: so not right. Orangutans are orange. Uh, it is a chimp. 70 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: A chimp was the species of that particular character. Terrifying character. 71 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: Oh yes, terrifying but wonderful film props to Jordan Peele. Uh, 72 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what you're doing today, Jordan's but you know, 73 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: drop a line if you want to be on the show. 74 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: Would love to chat you up. So, yeah, there's a 75 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: heck of a ballpark. And this is not a ding 76 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: on the excellent scientist who have been working for generations 77 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: to figure all this out for us, let's just keep 78 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: at high level. So million years ago, possibly due to 79 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: creative differences, uh, what will become humanity splits paths and 80 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: as far back as one point five million years ago, 81 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: the things that would become humans, may have begun to 82 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: harness fire, to use it to cook, to use it 83 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: to stay warm in the wild. Again, that's a large ballpark, 84 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: but it definitely happened by at least two hundred and 85 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: fifty thousand years ago, so one point five million to 86 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: two fifty thousand years ago, somewhere in between, about five 87 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: hundred thousand years ago. Our pal Homo sapien Homo is 88 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: the genus Homo is Latin for man. So Homo sapien 89 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: branches off and makes a bunch of uh gosh, what 90 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,119 Speaker 1: do we call them? In our Ancient Humanity episode Angel 91 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: Homedy episode called them mix tapes or mix tapes of 92 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: what would ultimately become all all of most of us 93 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: listening today. You know Neanderthal's Dennis Sillvans, the real life 94 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: hobbits out there in Southeast Asia. Do you see the 95 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: guy that that discovered the Dennis Ovans. Rediscovered the Dennis 96 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: Ovans won a Nobel Prize recently. I did not know. 97 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: I wasn't aware. That's awesome and well deserved to, especially 98 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: because Dennis Silvans are are such a mystery. Do check 99 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: out that episode, folks, you might be surprised about by 100 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: just how alive the past is, how it stays with us. 101 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: And it is a statistical certitude that many of the 102 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: people listening to today's show have a little bit of 103 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: Neanderthal or Dennis Ovan lineage in them. Not a bunch, 104 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: not a ton, you know, like a small percentage. Yeah, 105 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: I don't even think that Ancestry dot com or three 106 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: and me picks up on that. It's that it's that 107 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: level of of small. Yeah, agreeing, there's some populations parts 108 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: of the world that are much more likely to have 109 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: larger percentages. But so far as we know right now, 110 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: there's no like Neanderthal Er Denisovan running around today as 111 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: far as we know, So if there were, it would 112 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: be kind of a massive find. It would be like 113 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: the missing link kind of situation. Right, Yeah, they would 114 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: have Uh, it would be like winning the lottery and 115 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: getting struck by lightning twice on the same day. That's 116 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: how astronomical the odds are. But if it happens, that 117 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: would be amazing, especially because Homei Sapiens, what we recognize 118 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: is modern humans at least anatomically. They hit the stage 119 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: just three hundred thousand years ago, so from thirteen million 120 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: years ago, all the way up to just three thousand 121 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: years ago, we have humans that look like humans mostly, 122 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: but behaviorally they're not what we call modern. They're still 123 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: very different. That's going to take more than another hundred 124 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: and fifty thousand years. It's not until seventy thousand or 125 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: fifty thousand years ago. And isn't it funny that evolution 126 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: mainly got the basic equipment right that early, and the 127 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: rest of the evolution kind of happened inside, you know, 128 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: in the brain, the b camera mind. Yeah, and uh, 129 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: and there there are other interesting explorations we've done on 130 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: the idea of psychedelics accelerating those behavioral changes, as well 131 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: as h a lovely episode that I actually we listened 132 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: to with Joe McCormick from Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 133 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: That one's a banger. Check out the bi camera mind there. So, 134 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: all right, we've got we've got our people took millions 135 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: of years of brutal evolution, and we won't know most 136 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: of the stuff that went down, but we know largely 137 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: seventy fifty thousand years ago people are starting to think 138 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: the way people think now, and that's when we see 139 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: religion emerge ritualistic burial, other rituals. People are thinking abstractly 140 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: about a world that they cannot necessarily see. Uh, they 141 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: start going out on the ocean. I think, maybe a 142 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: little earlier, even more advanced weaponry. And then multiple groups 143 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: of anatomically modern humans are leaving the African continent over time. 144 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: And this is a little depressing, but human civilization has 145 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: been a series of close calls and bottlenecks at the 146 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: weirdest moments. So I thought, I don't know about you guys, 147 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: but I was surprised to find that um, a ton 148 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: scholars quite like a strong contingent, if not a majority 149 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:09,599 Speaker 1: of experts will argue that the earlier migrant waves just 150 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: died out, like they just couldn't survive. Uh. You know, 151 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: the further north you go, the environment changes radically and 152 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: so on. Uh. And so they will tell you that 153 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: all modern non African Homo sapiens are descended from groups 154 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: that left right during that seventy thousand to fifty thousand 155 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: year time period. And they didn't know agriculture either. They 156 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: were just they were kind of improvising, Right. Can I 157 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,599 Speaker 1: find something that I can eat that won't kill me? 158 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: Can I run this you know, antelope down, etcetera. Oh, 159 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: don't let that tiger get me. That kind of vibe. 160 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: Very stressful. Yeah, because our our best relics of agriculture, 161 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: our best understanding of when it came about, was only 162 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: about ten thou years ago, which if you think about 163 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: people just moving out and trying it on their own 164 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: without having a reliable way to create their own food 165 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: is astounding and then probably honestly moving like other animals. Right, 166 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: you're responding to environmental pressures, threats from out groups. Uh, 167 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: not enough food, not enough water, too many predators, not 168 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: enough prey, that kind of thing. Uh. And you know, 169 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,959 Speaker 1: I always want to take a moment and just thank 170 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: whomever was responsible for figuring out agriculture. I think about 171 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: it constantly. Somebody was paying attention and went through a 172 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: lot of what ifs, right, a lot of trial and error. Uh, 173 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: Like how would you you know you would like what? 174 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: You look at a grain? You look at a seed 175 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: and you think, I don't know, bury it, Oh, I 176 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: should bury it somewhere else. It's the kind of thing kids, 177 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,599 Speaker 1: do you know, It's like just experimentation, just just randomness, 178 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: and then enough people observe that behavior and observe the results, 179 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: and then it starts kind of being a part of 180 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: that historical game of telephone that we talked about, where 181 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: things get kind of passed down from observation and retelling, 182 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 1: and then gradually, over time it starts to kind of 183 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: resemble what we know and rely on today. Excellent point. Yeah, 184 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: And you know, over over the span of their existence, 185 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: humans have tried to bury and grow a lot of things, 186 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: including teeth, just to see what happens, just get it 187 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: to go. But but once we figured it out, right 188 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: around that ten thousand year ago mark, once you figure 189 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: out how to grow our own food, we started living 190 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: near that food right the center where we can grow 191 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:47,599 Speaker 1: a lot of food. Well, guess what, that's where we 192 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: live now, a lot of us, way more than we 193 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: used to welcome home, you know what I mean. Now 194 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: more of the children will survive to adulthood. Uh. And 195 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: now you will also be able to increasingly take care 196 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: of people we might have just left in the woods earlier. 197 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: You know what I mean, are bad, says early humanity, 198 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: But we're different now. Uh. This is called the neo Yeah, sure, yeah, 199 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: this is called the Neolithic revolution. And right now, even 200 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: in experts still can't agree on exactly why this happened. 201 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,719 Speaker 1: Why it seems like suddenly around that time people got it. 202 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,599 Speaker 1: But the you know, the idea uh spread memetically viral. E. 203 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: You know, people can toss good ideas to one another. 204 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: Always have been either the best communicators or the worst. 205 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: Not really in middle ground. Uh this agriculture, like you said, Matt, 206 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: we live here now. It leads to the first cities, 207 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: those become the first states during what's known as the 208 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 1: Bronze Age, which leads to Bronze Age collapse. Again, a 209 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: lot of stuff we're throwing at you. At least four 210 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 1: ancient civilizations figured out writing on their own, which is 211 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: also very impressive to Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and parts of Mesoamerica. 212 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: But if you're looking for the first complex civilization, you're 213 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: looking in Mesopotamia, in sumer and then look, there's all 214 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: sorts of stuff. Fast forward, fast forward, Paul gives is 215 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: like a fast forward que A lot of history is happening, 216 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of empires, religions. They're rising 217 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: and they're falling. People are falling in love, they're mad 218 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: at each other, the burning cities, they're sacking towns, you know, 219 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: profits are born. Uh that's is that a good summation 220 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: of like the next several thousand years? I would say so. 221 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: It's like you know, any of those uh, top down 222 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: civilization type games are like the SIMS even sort of 223 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: a civilization simulator. You can kind of see that stuff 224 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: happening on a much faster timeline. Yeah. And our game 225 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: of telephone is transferring from mouth into technology, right, and 226 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: that continues down the line til you get to this 227 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: point right now, where you've got a smartphone made out 228 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: of precious metals that is replicating our voices. Yes, and 229 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: this is a result of something called the Industrial Revolution. 230 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: New horizons for humanity. Uh. They're making technology with consequences 231 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: that won't be widely understood until centuries have passed. And 232 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: this period of time is popularly known as the Anthroposyne, 233 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: the Age of man. Uh. It's pretty impressive when you 234 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: think about that escalation. Human beings have been in their 235 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: current form for hundreds of thousands of years, but only 236 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: in the last few centuries have they developed all that 237 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: technology we're talking about. And it's also fascinating to think about. 238 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to take a spiritual view, 239 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: of it as some kind of prime mover creator methos. 240 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: All of the stuff that we needed to make that 241 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: technology was there for us the whole time, you know 242 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: what I mean, Like all of these precious metals that 243 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: you're talking about, it was just about finding them and 244 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: putting them to the right use. How crazy is that 245 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: when you really drill into it and think about it. 246 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: I mean, all of this stuff. You know, folks that 247 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: really you know, have religious beliefs, the idea that all 248 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: of this was made for us, and that usually relates 249 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: to things like animals that we need to eat and 250 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: plants and things that we need for shade and oxygen, 251 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: but it also applies to things way way deeper down 252 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: in the Earth's crust that we couldn't even get to 253 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: until we made the tools to do that properly, and 254 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: then we had to evolve to know how to harness 255 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: these things. It's a weird concept. God made uranium. We 256 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: just spun it until it became the dangerous, the really 257 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: dangerous kind. Well, guy, like, let's assume creative exist. The 258 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: imagine this for this is like I made your radium 259 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: for a totally different things. I don't know what, what 260 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: are you guys doing down there, and because it works, 261 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: you know, but heck, man, you're gonna blow yourselves up 262 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: in no time. I meant for this to last a 263 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: hell of a lot longer than what y'all are leading to. 264 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: Why are you? Why are you always trying to kill 265 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: each other? You know what I mean? This is nuts. 266 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: This is not how we saw it going. That's our 267 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: god impression or collected God impression. But it's kind of 268 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: like a Jerry Seinfeld figure. He's like, what's the deal 269 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: with the humans always doing this crazy stuff? Where did 270 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: the socks go and the dryer? Why are they so 271 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: into their weird holes? Anyway, we might addit that one. 272 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: You can take that however, you ish we dig a 273 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: lot of holes and we also have we possess weird holes. 274 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, and uh, digging weird holes is actually part 275 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: of this story. Think you always saved it? So another 276 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: philosophical thing I would add to that question. Um, not 277 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: in contradiction, but it's something else that be on people's 278 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: minds when you think about this concept of intelligent design, 279 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: is that human beings evolved here. So if something intelligent 280 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: evolved in a very different place than it, very well 281 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: might feel that everything was just so and Goldilocks zone 282 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: for it. So it's it's an important questions the thing 283 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: to wrestle with, like places we have no understanding of, 284 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: where the rules might be completely different, where up might 285 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: be down and they have something else that's uranium like 286 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: but not. I mean this also gets you to start 287 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: thinking about multiverse ideas where maybe it's like ours, but 288 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: things are just a little tweaked, you know, or we 289 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: could think about it in terms of everything existing on 290 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: the same timeline. There are just places so far beyond 291 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: our grasp that have similar Goldilocks zones and rules that 292 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 1: just do not resemble ours. Yeah, I think it's um 293 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: David Brin, I want to say, as a sci fi 294 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: author who wrestles with a lot of that, like hydrogen 295 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: based life, silicon based life. Maybe somewhere from what humans 296 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: know about the size of the universe, it's quite conceivable 297 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: that somewhere now or once upon a time or in 298 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: the future, there is a silicon based civilization and there's 299 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: one nuts so silicon based astrobiology professor zenobiologists, who's going, 300 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: I think there might be carbon based life forms and 301 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: they're like, you are freaking you were out of your circuits. Bro, 302 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: We're gonna burn, right, they wouldn't even have burning, though 303 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: it would be something else. We're gonna I ify you. 304 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: I don't know what it would be, but it would 305 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: be something to you. Yeah. So, while all of this 306 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: is happening, well, humans are doing their best and for 307 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: the most part, succeeding in the long, long term. Uh. 308 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: People start asking questions about the empires communities that came before, 309 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: and saying, how much do we really know about them? 310 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: You know, you go far enough back and do civilizations 311 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: and history transforms into myth, you know what I mean. 312 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: And it's difficult to prove or disprove some things. But 313 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: that's not the question today. Question today is more intriguing, 314 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: and I would argue more ominous. Has life been at 315 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: this stage before? And would we know if it had. 316 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: We're gonna on on Earth, on Earth. We're gonna pause 317 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor and we'll be right back. 318 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy, Okay. The whole time working 319 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: on this stuff, we had this one coming. For a while, 320 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: I kept thinking of, um, the ballot of Buster Scrugs, 321 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: where the Franco character is getting hanged and turned around 322 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: and says first time, it's not a spoiler, because that's 323 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: a meme already. It is. I didn't know that. Do 324 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: you know of that? It's worth it. It's worth it 325 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: matter if I ruined it, but it's it's good. It's 326 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: just one moment in a much larger thing like humanity. 327 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: Uh so hey, hey, so science fiction literature. They've explored 328 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: this idea before, the concept of ancient civilizations, ancient unknown civilizations, Atlantis, Lamuria, Hyperborea, 329 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: things like that. But in recent years, more and more 330 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: scientists have been captivated by what we could describe as 331 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: a thought experiment. Um, a thought experiment looking for life, 332 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: not in this universe or other universes, but right here 333 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: on our pale blue dot. What's the simple way to 334 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: put this? Like we've we've all read the paper, and 335 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: you can read the paper online for free, but um, 336 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: what what? What's there? What if? What are they? What if? Here? 337 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: So here it is? If you really want to parse 338 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: this down to its kind of basic fundamental it is 339 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: the question, given the vast span of Earth's history, is 340 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: it possible that some earlier civilization that predates our humanity 341 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: uh may have reached that industrial level before we did. Uh, 342 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: And if so, is it possible that there might be 343 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: evidence of this in the historical record? And I don't 344 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: mean the historical record like you know what historians have 345 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: have written in toms. I mean like things like ice 346 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: cores and fossils and all of that stuff, Like, shouldn't 347 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: there be some clue that would prove that this had happened? 348 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: And if not, why well yeah, well and if you 349 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: think about that, and you think about that span of time, 350 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: it even leaves in the possibility that it's not a 351 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: mammalian species that could have reached that level, right. I 352 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: think it's I think it's very uh self centered for 353 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: us to think that it would be you know what 354 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: I mean. It's like if we think of other other 355 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: potential sal you know, species and civilizations. Again, like we 356 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: were talking about at the top, the more sci fi 357 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: kind of um conjecture version of this, I think it's 358 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: very absurd to think that it would resemble anything that 359 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: we're familiar with at all. Yeah, there are there are 360 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: a lot of things that we have to wrestle with 361 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: when we ask this question, and it's an endlessly fascinating question. Uh. First, 362 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: you know, if it's old enough mammals weren't really a 363 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: thing unless mammals evolved twice, which is asking a lot. 364 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: Not impossible, but asking a lot. It's like, you know, 365 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: winning a lottery ticket getting hit by the lightning on 366 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: a second day, you know, after the first day, and 367 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: you know, like, I gotta, I gotta change of spending 368 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: all my lottery winnings on you know, trauma awards. But 369 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: this question captivated to scientists in particular, and they're they're 370 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: both big deals. Adam Frank, who is an astrobiologist at 371 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: the University of Rochester and Gavin Schmidt, who is the 372 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: director of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New 373 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: York City out of NASA. And first they were just talking. 374 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: They were just Frank approached Schmidt and said, hey, what 375 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: do you think about the concept of detecting alien civilizations 376 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: by looking at how they might have impacted the climate 377 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 1: of a planet? Right? We you know, can we use 378 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: ice cores, could we use tree rings? Dendo chronology? To 379 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: figure something out? And then eventually after they they both 380 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: were super upboard tent toes down for this and they 381 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: were like having these late night conversations for a while, 382 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: and then Eventually they realized, heck, we could expand this 383 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: question and bring it home. We could ask the same 384 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: thing about the planet we're on now. They call it 385 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: the Silurian hypothesis. And this is not uh, this is 386 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: not a shout out to uh Silurian the way it's 387 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: the acade Amia and UH and geology. This is a 388 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: shout out to doctor who fans It sounds like an 389 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: an alien race to me. The Silurians. They are doctor who. 390 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: It's just it's perfect. It's a perfect word for it. 391 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: It is and it's I mean, it's a great name. 392 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: So they write this paper and it's a legit paper. Again, 393 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: do read it online. It is free. Keep in mind 394 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: that it is a scientific paper. It is in a journal, 395 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: so there's some hard science in there. Not hard. A 396 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: isn't difficult, but you know, like quantitative data. And they 397 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: walk through a lot of questions. We're gonna walk through 398 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: them today and and see what we think about this. Um. 399 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: There's also great writing about it that is a little 400 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: more digustible that you can find. Oh yeah, yeah, you 401 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: can find some great articles and wired you can find 402 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: um yeah, you can find tons of analysis. But do 403 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: do check it out. You know, crack open beverage of 404 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: choice or your vice of choice, and prepare to have 405 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: your mind blown. What do we all drinking today? I 406 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: see a bubbly see gatorade. I guess some weird Japanese 407 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: drink called coffee flavored milk drink. Oh, so it's coffee 408 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: with a delicious Oh it's Korea's favorite. Okay, you're not 409 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: drinking Mr Brown today. No, I'm out of Mr Brown. 410 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: I've got like, I've got a weird disparate collection of 411 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: kind of a juice box of coffee juice box. That 412 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: it is there, It is all right. So they're having 413 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: this conversation and they eventually they published this paper and 414 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: they say, Okay, is it possible to detect an industrial 415 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: civilization that preceded what we know of history by looking 416 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: at the geological record? Could they have? Could there have 417 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: been something that was on a global scale that made 418 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: enough of an impact like humans are doing now, such 419 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: that we can find traces vestiges of this eons later, 420 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: all the way here in the age of the anthroposyne. 421 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 1: And to be fair, they're not making wild claims. They 422 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: don't immediately blow smoke. You can get that they're very 423 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: cautious when when you read this and they're not doing 424 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: a weekly world news tabloid. It's not um, they're not 425 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: trying to make money. This is published in an outfit 426 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: called the International Journal of Astrobiology. I'm not going to 427 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: pretend that I have a subscription, but I did. I 428 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: did read the paper, but yeah, I'm not up to 429 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: date on that journal. You know, I know, I know 430 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna get into specifics, but this is the implication 431 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: being Obviously, we're not talking about an epoch here on 432 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: Earth necessarily that we missed or that you know, was 433 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: erased in some way. We're talking about that some star 434 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: stuff from one of these other civilizations found its way 435 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: into the formation of ours, and then we would be 436 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: able to potentially dig deep and find little clues, uh 437 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: to something that happened you know, are far away. It's both, 438 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: it's both. They started with uh, they started with the 439 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: idea of looking in other parts of the galaxy, and 440 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: they realized they could apply the same thought experiment to 441 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: Earth itself. And they're pretty skeptical about this because they 442 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: don't want to come off sound any like crackpots. And guys, 443 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 1: if you're listening, you don't at all. Uh. They had 444 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: one quote that really stood out, where they say, while 445 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: we strongly doubt that any previous industrial civilization existed before 446 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: our own, asking the question in a formal way that 447 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: articulates explicitly what evidence for such a civilization might look 448 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: like raises its own useful questions related to both astrobiology 449 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: and to anthroposyne studies. So really they're saying, hey, look, guys, 450 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: we know it sounds a little out there, but even 451 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: if you think it's out there, the way we approach 452 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: this question can lead us to uh more res church 453 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: in proven things like astrobiology, the age of you know, 454 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: the age of humanity, the anthroposyne. Uh. And also, we 455 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: don't have any financial motive. At the very end of 456 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: the paper, they make that very clear. They're like, we 457 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: don't have any funding for this paper. We didn't ask 458 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: for any We just think it would be cool if 459 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: more people started thinking about this. Uh. And then they 460 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: do just what you're describing their old They start with 461 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: a pretty a very approachable intro to like what an 462 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: astrobiologists would do, what scientists do when they're thinking about 463 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: searching for non terrestrial life aliens. That's where that's where 464 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: their origin point was, and they talked about some of 465 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: the coolest stuff on planet Earth, the things you could 466 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: compare to possible non terrestrial life. You want to start small. 467 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: You're looking at extreme of files. If you ever run 468 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: into extreme of files, you're in neighborhood you are not 469 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: built for, like some of those deep sea fellas that 470 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: are just weirdos. They're weird, yeah, man, the ones that 471 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: like can survive, you know, extreme temperatures and still look 472 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: cute as a button. Let me say, well, and the 473 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: concept here is that perhaps some of these survived from 474 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: that same time, right, Yeah, that would be that would 475 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: be one of the concepts when they're applying it to Earth, 476 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: right Uh. And then also, you know, in general, you 477 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: would if you're an astrobiologist your look or zeno biologists, 478 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: et cetera. You're looking at extreme aphiles and you want 479 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: to find ones that you want to find life forms 480 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: that are surviving in an environment that might resemble something 481 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: you can reasonably assume is out there in the ink, 482 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: you know. Uh, That's where that's where they start with. 483 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: But then they say, okay, well let's let's think this 484 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: a little further. Right now, It gets increasingly controversial. So 485 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: of the search for life, Uh, the umbrella is that 486 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,239 Speaker 1: you search for analogs on Earth that look like they 487 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: could live in an alien environment. Subset of that under 488 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: the umbrella, a smaller umbrella, I guess uh is the 489 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: search for intelligent life, which gets kind of controversial, right, 490 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: you have to make a lot of assumptions about intelligence. 491 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: And under that a third, even smaller, tiny umbrella is 492 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: the holy grail of the entire search, the search for 493 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: a civilization made of some intelligent life form that also 494 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: has the ability to communicate somehow with human beings. If 495 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: that happens, I'm sorry, various religions, that's officially the biggest 496 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: thing that ever happened. It's not a great mythology, but 497 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: I I do. And there are things about the movie 498 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: Prometheus that I enjoyed, um the Alien prequel, because it 499 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: kind of explores some of these things, the idea that 500 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: things from another galaxy or another dimension could somehow, you know, 501 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: interact with humans. And by intelligent in that respect, we 502 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: mean pure murderous rage, you know what I mean. So 503 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: like the idea of what does intelligence mean? It could 504 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: just mean the most extreme levels of cunning and uh 505 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: and and and desire to wipe out and exterminate anything 506 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: that is not them, kind of a dark forest approach. 507 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: Uh for for all the sci fi nerds, right, and 508 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: they you know, they have to acknowledge primary assumptions. One 509 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: of the big assumptions that supports the whole saluried hypothesis 510 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: is this. They're saying, Okay, any civilization capable of communicating 511 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: with humans in some way, we have to assume they 512 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: have developed an industry of some sort. Now, is it 513 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: totally possible that there could be a purely organic kind 514 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: of civilization like they grow their radio or they you know, 515 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: they have telepathy or something like that. Sure, that's possible, 516 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: but there's no real there's no real life comparison of 517 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: that that human scientists know yet. So what human scientists 518 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: know is stuff like building radio technology. So finding something 519 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: like that that is the kicker. That's that's the that's 520 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: the good version of winning the lottery and getting struck 521 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: by lightning twice. But also like building, we build things 522 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: that we cannot do with our bodies. You know, we 523 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: build things because we don't have these abilities. So we 524 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: want to like level up and and be and have 525 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: these powers that potentially other civilizations or species that we're 526 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: not aware of could have innately. I mean, even like 527 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, dolphins and certain sea creatures do have the 528 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: ability to communicate vias sonar, and that's not something that 529 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: we can do with our meat bodies. So the question 530 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: of industry starts to become a rabbit hole in and 531 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: of itself, because you know, would a sufficiently advanced civilization 532 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: even need an economy? Would they even need the ability 533 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: to like, quote unquote make money if they were situated 534 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: in such a way where everyone just kind of was 535 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: able to communicate and coexist naturally without that kind of stuff, 536 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: I would argue the idea of industry and economy is 537 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: sort of a negative byproduct of of humanity. Again, uh, 538 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: no one, No one has yet to uh prove a 539 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: difference between the concept of economy and the concept of religion. 540 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,919 Speaker 1: So I'm with you there, uh. And certain focused modes 541 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: of thought could also be considered a technology in some ways. 542 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 1: But you're right. So Frank and Schmidt are asking their assumptions. 543 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: They say, Okay, if we want to find this diamond 544 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: in the universal rough, then let's assume life has arisen 545 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: somewhere anywhere, and that some species are what we would 546 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: understand isn't legit. If those two things you're true, then 547 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,439 Speaker 1: how often do these life forms reach what we would 548 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: call the industrial civilization stage? And this is where humanity 549 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: is really at a disadvantage because if you if you 550 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: know basic science, you want a good sample size. Our 551 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: sample size is one. We have one example. It's humans. 552 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: That's that's the only that's the only thing. And we 553 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: talked about Homo sapiens ben what was the min max 554 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: there up two hundred and fifty thousand years ago. Yet 555 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: when we when we began that trek up towards technology, 556 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: and if you think about that time scale, we've only 557 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: been in the industrial age for three years. Um. Again, 558 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: they're aganst they're against to believe, you know it with 559 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: that span of time we've figured it all out, or 560 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: that we have all the answers or something, or that 561 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: we're the most advanced. But this is this is terribly 562 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: exciting when when you think about the Silurian hypothesis, because 563 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: complex organisms life on Earth have been around for millions 564 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: and millions and millions and millions and millions of years. 565 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: So the potential for something even an industrial civilization to 566 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 1: develop out of that? Is there? I mean, it really is, 567 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: just from a time scale perspective, because it would be 568 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: a quick blip really for me guys, the big question 569 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: is when something like that occurs, when an intelligent species 570 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: you know, emerges and then technology is found in an 571 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: industrialization occurs. Is there some kind of end point to 572 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: the beginning of that industrial state that ends in the 573 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: collapse of that industrial state with like the loss of 574 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: the species. Right is the brought Like? Are these collapses 575 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,919 Speaker 1: um somewhat predictable and predetermined? Right? Is the Bronze Age 576 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: collapse something that just every every life form at a 577 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: given threshold the bed uh? And then is post industrial 578 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: the post industrial threshold? Another one of those oopsies? Yeah, 579 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: I mean you see examples of it even in the Bible, 580 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: with like the Great Floods and like Sodom and Gomorrah 581 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: and all these things, and civilizations that you know got 582 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: too big for their bridges being wiped out by virtue 583 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,959 Speaker 1: of their own arrogance, you know usually and I would 584 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: argue that it is predictable, but you know, as we 585 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: know the timelines kind of maybe honestly, we're probably due 586 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: for one because of the exponential escalation of the damage 587 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: that we do, you know. Yeah, But also it's when 588 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: is due for one. It's kind of like when when 589 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: someone says Yellowstone is due for an eruption. Again, there's 590 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: a ballpark there and human lives are infinitessimal fraction of 591 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: that time. So this is again, like you said, Matt, 592 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: this is such a short time period, it is reasonable 593 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: to ask, could this have happened before? If so, how 594 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: would modern civilization? No, how would you be able to 595 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: prove it? Well, if we were to look to Earth 596 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: for proof of some previously unknown beyond ancient civilization, we 597 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: gotta dig. Literally, we'd be looking into the planet. And 598 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 1: this is where we learn about stuff like the quaternary, 599 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 1: which is the past two point five million years. It 600 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: is not a measure of time that the average person 601 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: uses very often, right, We think more like fifteen minutes. Uh, 602 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: and you know I'll be there in a half hour, 603 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: et cetera. And if you were in the South, please 604 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: know we're lying to you about that punctuality. What you know, 605 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: eventually someone from the South will get there. But okay, 606 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: if you look at the past two point five million years, 607 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 1: there is loads of evidence for hominids like DENNISO Vince Neanderthals. 608 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: They lived, they left a mark. You can see evidence 609 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: of their cultures. You can also see evidence of things 610 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: like climate change, soil horizon, the passage of time, and 611 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: the change in the surface. But the fossil record, the 612 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: geological record, i should say, is woefully incomplete. Once you 613 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: get past that two point five million mark, you're you're 614 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,959 Speaker 1: in You're in an uphill situation. That's where you gotta 615 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: start making all the holes. You know. That's why mining 616 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: operations and drilling operations find weird stuff all the time. 617 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: That's why Russia, uh this way before the war with Ukraine, 618 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: that's why Russia one day said let's just dig a 619 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: hole as deep as we can and see what happens. 620 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: But you know, frankly, they're not doing that in the 621 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: service of science and discovery. So you know, as we know, 622 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: things tend to get funded more if there's like a 623 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 1: monetary gain in alved and it also means that, yeah, 624 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: maybe they might report it to scientists, and they you know, 625 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: they have scientists, but these are like oil scientists that 626 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 1: their job is to figure out the best holes to 627 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 1: drill to get the best return. On their investment. But 628 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: it does mean that we're probably lacking some information in 629 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: the historical record because it is very expensive to to 630 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: dig that deep, literally, and then the poor, poor creator 631 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: out there beyond the bounds of the heavens is going, oh, 632 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: come on, what's what's the deal with the guy's oil? 633 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: Is just like a thing, It's just a thing that happened. 634 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: You're supposed to be in a fern based economy anyway, 635 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: So uh, I mean fern gully. You know they had 636 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: to figure it out, the last rainforest or the tanuki 637 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: and palm pom poco pomp poco. Yeah, m hmm. Uh 638 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: So maybe we could look at fossils, right, that makes sense. 639 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: People know about dinosaurs because they found fossils, fossils that 640 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: probably launched at least some of the myths of dragons. 641 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: But you know, fossilization if as you've learned from movies 642 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: like Jurassic Park, a documentary Jurassic Park, it's a real crapshoot. 643 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: It's got to be the exact right conditions to generate 644 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: that fossil record. Um, you know, it has to do 645 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: with climate, it has to do with how the creature 646 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: in question or the organism in question died where it 647 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: was the situation, it really is kind of like that 648 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: whole winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning on 649 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,879 Speaker 1: the same day scenario. So therefore we're depending on I mean, sure, 650 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 1: it's a long timeline, so you know, technically you're you're 651 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: likelihood to find some over a longer timeline for those 652 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,240 Speaker 1: conditions to have occurred multiple times, it does get more likely, 653 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean it's complete because it's not based 654 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: on anything specific. It's not based on any thing that's 655 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,879 Speaker 1: meant to show us the way. It's just a bunch 656 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: of random elements aligning in such a way that it 657 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: shows us some stuff. Think about how many humans are 658 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: on the planet right now, Ben, what's the latest numbers? 659 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: Eight it's close to Oh, we get to do the 660 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: world population clock. Last time we checked, it was a 661 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 1: little bit north of seven point eight billions, and right 662 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: now it is seven point nine eight billion, So it'll 663 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:35,319 Speaker 1: reach it in your life. So like, there's eight billion 664 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,439 Speaker 1: of us, and if we all died, and if every 665 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: time a thing died, we would all leave a fossil, right, 666 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: and you would have a really good chance if you 667 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 1: were the next civilization of finding us. But that's not 668 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,280 Speaker 1: the case. As you said, these very specific things environmental 669 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: factors have to meet to make a fossil, and we've 670 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: only got a couple of thousand dinosaur fossils. That's crazy town. 671 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: Millions and millions of dinosaurs will never know. It's actually 672 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: it's completely possible that there were multiple species of what 673 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: we call dinosaurs today that in their glory days numbered 674 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 1: in the millions, and just where they were and where 675 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: they died, they happened not to have the right environment 676 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: to become fossils, right, Like, not everybody naturally mummifies, you know, 677 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 1: because they're not in the right area conditions. We found 678 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: some of the best ones out west because of things 679 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 1: like tar pits, you know, because that was just a 680 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: larger trap kind of where they would you know, decay 681 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: and be preserved in just the right way. But other 682 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: parts of the world don't have those, you know, and 683 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: so it's a it's a lot more rare to have 684 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:49,359 Speaker 1: those situational kind of factors align. Yeah, otherwise we would 685 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: be you know, inundated in the bones of the dead. 686 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 1: Modern Earth would be even more of a graveyard than 687 00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: it actually is. It would appear to be more of one. 688 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 1: But so from this, Frank and Schmitt say, a species 689 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: as recent as our good old pal homie sapiens might 690 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: not end up existing in the fossil record at all. Uh. 691 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,920 Speaker 1: And add to that the likelihood of objects made by 692 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,800 Speaker 1: the homies. Uh. Those surviving those odds are also pretty 693 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:29,280 Speaker 1: bad because Earth eats things all the time. Even giant 694 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: structures that you imagine would be around or we see 695 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,959 Speaker 1: in post apocalyptic movies that are supposed to take place 696 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: for in the future, the skeletons of those structures, their 697 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 1: fossils would not be around. Yeah, here's here, which means 698 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: cities are you know, they're going to go the way 699 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: of the Dodo too. I mean, this is a statistic 700 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: that might surprise people. So the majority of the human 701 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: population currently lives in urban environments, that's true, that's a 702 00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: threshold that was recently crossed. Even with that today, no 703 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,839 Speaker 1: matter how busy your city or community feels, you might 704 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: be astonished to realize human urban centers make up about 705 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,799 Speaker 1: one percent of Earth's entire surface area. Uh. So there's 706 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: not as much out there as we might think, right, 707 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,280 Speaker 1: and without constant maintenance, those few structures that do exist 708 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: will be eaten by nature, and it won't take a 709 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: thousand years. Most of them. It's like a couple of 710 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: decades and then you know you have that um I 711 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: am the grass, let me work moments. Uh, I remember 712 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: the poem. I'll find it later, but it's moving anyway. 713 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: Fast forward a million years. Any physical evidence would long 714 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 1: ago have vanished. A million years is such a long 715 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,760 Speaker 1: time that tectonic plates can move, right, and so something 716 00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: like if there was something that was built on the 717 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: San Andreas Fall and it was a stone structure that 718 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,759 Speaker 1: said this is gonna last forever. Yeah, audios, you know, 719 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 1: go with God. But the best we could hope to 720 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: find then and there, from their perspective, which seems very logical, 721 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:19,840 Speaker 1: is minor anomalies, stuff that doesn't quite work out in 722 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: sedimentary layers. So humanity's probability of finding direct evidence is 723 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: pretty low. It'd be super cool to find long buried 724 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,799 Speaker 1: ancient technology. That's what some of our favorite sci fi 725 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: films and stories are about. Uh and video games, by 726 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,760 Speaker 1: the way, But the odds just aren't there. The planet 727 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:45,359 Speaker 1: is alive, it's a living thing over multiple natural processes 728 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: over nigh incomprehensible spans of time. It's a hungry boy 729 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 1: and it eats everything. But we're not left alone in 730 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 1: the dark here. Luckily, Frank and Schmidt have provided a 731 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: decompelling an argument for the stuff we should be looking for. 732 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:12,720 Speaker 1: We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor. Okay, 733 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 1: we're back. The question I think we've arrived to at 734 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: this point is what should we be looking for? We 735 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 1: know how incomplete the record is, even for our you know, civilization, 736 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: So what are these marks? What are these kind of 737 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: flags that we should be looking for that might potentially 738 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 1: point to other civilizations beyond our you know, galaxy, beyond 739 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,440 Speaker 1: our anything that we know. Well, this it's kind of 740 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: what we talked about. You look at the Earth itself, 741 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,560 Speaker 1: you look at the layers of it, and you go, mmmmm, 742 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,760 Speaker 1: what could have happened in this general area at this time? Hmm. 743 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: I wonder what the CEO two levels were like. We're 744 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: there high levels of some specific chemical in the atmosphere 745 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,680 Speaker 1: within a certain range of years, which you could imagine 746 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: would be pollution or something, right if there was an 747 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: industrial civilization. It's really the only way to do it. 748 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: It's indirectly looking for evidence of this stuff. Yeah, like 749 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,160 Speaker 1: you could see evidence of things like rapid changes in 750 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,759 Speaker 1: temperature or climate way way back in the day. Uh. 751 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: And this is this is not controversial science. You can 752 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,920 Speaker 1: find those indicators. They're fairly Uh, they would make sense 753 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,200 Speaker 1: to the experts. Or someone taps geothermal power sources, I mean, 754 00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: they'd have to put a lot of work in, but 755 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: they could leave a mark. Uh. And then another thing's 756 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:43,359 Speaker 1: interesting slash Depressing nitrogen based fertilizers could result in an 757 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: anomalous chemical composition in sentiments or the thing that you 758 00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:55,240 Speaker 1: alluded to so beautifully earlier, matt isotopes isotope ratios. Remember 759 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: flashback to your high school or college teacher telling you 760 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: about half lives of different elements and things. There are 761 00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 1: two things capable of producing something like plutonium to forty four. 762 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:15,120 Speaker 1: They are supernovas any human beings, which is a pretty 763 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: cool list to be on. Uh. So it's a it's 764 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,239 Speaker 1: like Hawkeye teaming up with the Dark Phoenix. Um, this 765 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,360 Speaker 1: comic book reference is unnecessary, but we're going to keep it. 766 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:34,480 Speaker 1: So is the Dark Phoenix Gene Gray the bad guy 767 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,520 Speaker 1: version of Jean Gray, or at least I think maybe 768 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: you turned good. Eventually, I don't get deep into the 769 00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,839 Speaker 1: actual comics and then I'll wait till it comes out 770 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,600 Speaker 1: in the movies. But I think that's right. Yeah, you 771 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,640 Speaker 1: guys are right. Also, I would skip the Dark Phoenix film. Uh. 772 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,360 Speaker 1: That one was problematic and like had a really troubled 773 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: production and apparently it shows in the in the final product. 774 00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:01,320 Speaker 1: Comic is great, though, So discovery this stuff like that 775 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,759 Speaker 1: would be almost a smoking gun. If you discovered plutonium 776 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:10,840 Speaker 1: to forty four, you would have to start asking some 777 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,000 Speaker 1: pretty haunting questions. And then, of course there's the idea 778 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,160 Speaker 1: of plastics, right, they take forever to degrade. I know, 779 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,279 Speaker 1: we talked about this all the time and the show, 780 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,680 Speaker 1: because plastics are going to be a continuing danger for 781 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:28,359 Speaker 1: everybody alive now. But also when we're talking, we're talking 782 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:34,120 Speaker 1: about the time scale so large that plastics might also 783 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,840 Speaker 1: not not be a huge player for much of Earth's surface. 784 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,960 Speaker 1: Because all right, here's my understanding, correct me if I'm 785 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,800 Speaker 1: if I'm off base here. So plastics can last like 786 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:54,720 Speaker 1: one thousand years. They degrade do primarily to solar ultra 787 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,839 Speaker 1: violet radiation. That's the number one cause of plastic degradation. 788 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 1: So you leave plastic like just like mummies and fossils 789 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,400 Speaker 1: need specific circumstances, plastic does too. If you leave it 790 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,799 Speaker 1: out in the sun, eventually, you know, a millennia later, 791 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:17,480 Speaker 1: bye bye. But if you go past the photic zone 792 00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,360 Speaker 1: of the ocean, if you go so deep into the 793 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,920 Speaker 1: sea that light no longer penetrates like sinking you know, 794 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,200 Speaker 1: sinking plastic ultimately making it to the sea floor, then 795 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 1: your odds of if you're a little piece like your 796 00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,759 Speaker 1: little you know, bottle of soda or something, or gatorade, powerade, 797 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,719 Speaker 1: then your odds of surviving on the sea floor are 798 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,600 Speaker 1: much higher for a much longer period of time. Until 799 00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 1: a species of shrimp comes along and it's evolved to 800 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:51,359 Speaker 1: eat plastic. They're my favorite god shrimp. Yeah, the ones 801 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,759 Speaker 1: that can just shoot photons right out of their little 802 00:51:53,800 --> 00:52:01,640 Speaker 1: shrimp eyes. I can't there, Okay, I know you are, 803 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:03,560 Speaker 1: I know and I and I ruined that, But I 804 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: still stand by what I said. I love the idea. 805 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 1: I love it. I hope I hope those shrimp grow larger. 806 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,440 Speaker 1: I don't know why we're not doing more genetic experimentation 807 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:18,680 Speaker 1: on them. Come on, you gotta be the change anyway. Uh, well, 808 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,239 Speaker 1: there's I'm sure there are some people in the crowd 809 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 1: who are saying we can't save every falling sparrow because 810 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:30,560 Speaker 1: humanity is too busy killing every non human thing. That's true, 811 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,440 Speaker 1: humans are amid a great mass extinction. It's not the 812 00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,160 Speaker 1: first one ever, but it's it's one that humans are 813 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,160 Speaker 1: at least partially responsible for. Would be very diplomatic there, 814 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,640 Speaker 1: you are, good, good, good on you. You got a 815 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 1: political career ahead of you, my friend, Oh gosh, I 816 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 1: hope not. But so there's this, uh, there's this thing. Right, 817 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,360 Speaker 1: we know it's reasonable to assume that if there is 818 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,600 Speaker 1: a great die off, it will show in the fossil record. 819 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,160 Speaker 1: Large mammal extinctions that occurred at the end of the 820 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,279 Speaker 1: last Ice Age can be associated with the beginning of 821 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,600 Speaker 1: the anthroposy. That's from Frank and Schmidt. So that's interesting 822 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:18,480 Speaker 1: because it means the sudden absence of a lot of 823 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:23,239 Speaker 1: things in the fossil record maybe proof all its own 824 00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,160 Speaker 1: they like. And we know this because evidence of mass 825 00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:32,400 Speaker 1: extinctions are found by sudden absences in the fossil record, 826 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:37,799 Speaker 1: correlated with other changes that seem to happen suddenly, at 827 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,080 Speaker 1: least suddenly in geological terms, and they go further Frank 828 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:42,600 Speaker 1: and Schmidt. And by the way, Frank, when you say 829 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,440 Speaker 1: it Frank and Schmidt, I just I think it sounds 830 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,600 Speaker 1: like a vultron kind of situation. I love that. So 831 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,400 Speaker 1: they proposed that you imagine that the civilization did exist, 832 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: and then they asked, could have shared this great dream 833 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,920 Speaker 1: of you know, our humanity and our civilization, the thing 834 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,279 Speaker 1: that we kind of hang our hat on and terms 835 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,960 Speaker 1: of like our you know, progress as a species. Two 836 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,800 Speaker 1: go forth to Sally forth into the great beyond and 837 00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,560 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the afterlife here, I'm talking about the stars. 838 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:15,879 Speaker 1: I'm talking about space, the space beyond and between. Well, yeah, 839 00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:20,080 Speaker 1: and what if they knew that a massive impact was 840 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,200 Speaker 1: going to occur on Earth at a certain time because 841 00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,719 Speaker 1: they were tracking when it was going to happen, they 842 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:28,120 Speaker 1: didn't have the technology to stop it. So enough of 843 00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:33,480 Speaker 1: them ejected, if you will left and maybe one day return, 844 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: You guys as reptilian extraterrestrials with laser eyes, you know, 845 00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,160 Speaker 1: that's the noise they make. That's clearly the noise they make. 846 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: And pew pew. So the thing is what's fascinating, the 847 00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:55,520 Speaker 1: reason they bring this up is because Earth being such 848 00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:59,760 Speaker 1: a hungry thing and continue to be a living planning 849 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,880 Speaker 1: genually having these processes, it's tough to keep things permanent 850 00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:10,320 Speaker 1: over the long span. There's tectonic activity, there's erosion, But 851 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,719 Speaker 1: the Moon and Mars they don't they don't roll like that, 852 00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,480 Speaker 1: they don't orbit like that. I should say, God, that's 853 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,759 Speaker 1: a terrible joke. But the Moon does have like a 854 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,800 Speaker 1: sort of erosion, you know, it's just way more chilled 855 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,600 Speaker 1: than the terror version. So it may be that the 856 00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:30,000 Speaker 1: evidence or the question of the seleriand hypothesis could be 857 00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 1: answered not by something discovered on Earth, but by something 858 00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:39,000 Speaker 1: discovered on Mars. That's interesting because it's less likely to 859 00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:44,640 Speaker 1: have been wiped away. M hmm, yep, that's the first 860 00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:51,839 Speaker 1: I know. Uh curious or in curious or so uh 861 00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,080 Speaker 1: there are you making a great point, Matt. There are 862 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,239 Speaker 1: also a lot of caveats we have to add, because 863 00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:58,920 Speaker 1: you just had one of the most important caveats with 864 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,640 Speaker 1: the Mars question. What was it? What did it used 865 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,440 Speaker 1: to be? Like? You know, that's a great time title 866 00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:11,479 Speaker 1: for a podcast. What why don't we give it a try? 867 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,000 Speaker 1: Why don't we do a podcast that I was talking 868 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,120 Speaker 1: with Laura voge Obama while back good friend of the show. 869 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 1: You've heard her on the show before. Check out her 870 00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,920 Speaker 1: shows bringing Stuff and savor Um. And I was pitching 871 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,040 Speaker 1: this idea. It was just a terrible podcast based on 872 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,000 Speaker 1: all the ideas we had come up with and decided 873 00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,440 Speaker 1: not to pursue at the company and all the weird 874 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,200 Speaker 1: one offs we did. Would you guys be in could 875 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:38,560 Speaker 1: I get you to go on that if we do 876 00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,359 Speaker 1: it down to clown? Yeah, that just splashed the evil eye. 877 00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,840 Speaker 1: This uh this caveat though, is put very uh Frank 878 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,440 Speaker 1: and schmidt Ley by Frank and schmidt Um. Thus lee 879 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,320 Speaker 1: uh quote. There is an interesting paradox and considering the 880 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,680 Speaker 1: anthropogenic footprint on a geological time scale, the longer human 881 00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:02,320 Speaker 1: civilization lasts, the archer the signal one would expect in 882 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,719 Speaker 1: the record. However, again, that goes back to what we 883 00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,000 Speaker 1: were saying about fossil record. A longer timeline, you're gonna 884 00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,960 Speaker 1: have more hits, even if it does require very specific 885 00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:16,160 Speaker 1: situations to lead to those those hits. Um going on. However, 886 00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:20,160 Speaker 1: the longer civilization lasts, the more sustainable it's practices would 887 00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:26,000 Speaker 1: need to have become in order to survive. Yeah, oh 888 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,320 Speaker 1: here that homye sapiens. Uh also shout out to the 889 00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:34,200 Speaker 1: book Sapiens by Uh Noah you of all Harari. Excellent read, 890 00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,960 Speaker 1: worth your time, controversial, but would love to hear what 891 00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,600 Speaker 1: you think. Oh and by the way, off air aside, 892 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:45,040 Speaker 1: thanks to the good mister Matt Frederick, we've confirmed the 893 00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:50,760 Speaker 1: poem I was alluding to, like like someone with brain 894 00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:55,440 Speaker 1: adult's brain fever is a real thing. It's called grass. 895 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,880 Speaker 1: It's by a guy named Carl Sandberg. It's excellent, it's short. 896 00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,360 Speaker 1: Read it and then just have it locked and loaded, 897 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,680 Speaker 1: be ready to drop and winp Yeah, you'll sound really 898 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,400 Speaker 1: deep because it is a deep, cool poem, and I 899 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,320 Speaker 1: wish it wasn't so apropos to these are modern days. 900 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:18,600 Speaker 1: But yeah, Frankin Schmidt go on, and they make another 901 00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,720 Speaker 1: great point when they're talking about this paradox we introduced. 902 00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:26,080 Speaker 1: They say, quote, the more sustainable a society, for example, 903 00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:32,240 Speaker 1: in energy generation, manufacturing, or agriculture, the smaller the footprint 904 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: on the rest of the planet. But the smaller the footprint, 905 00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:38,960 Speaker 1: the less of a signal will be embedded in the 906 00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:43,960 Speaker 1: geological record. Thus, the footprint of a civilization might be 907 00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:48,360 Speaker 1: self limiting on a relatively short time scale. Yeah, I'm 908 00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,920 Speaker 1: thinking about like space trash. You know, if you were 909 00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,320 Speaker 1: doing a good job, there would be no space trash. 910 00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,360 Speaker 1: You know, we're the ones who leave that stuff behind 911 00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:02,280 Speaker 1: because we're not very sustainable. But it is interesting right 912 00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:06,920 Speaker 1: that that we haven't found a lot of space trash 913 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,960 Speaker 1: that predates human civilization, That's what I'm saying. Almost none. 914 00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,240 Speaker 1: Well that's because well except for the Black Knights. You 915 00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: you could argue though, that if there was, you know, 916 00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:18,560 Speaker 1: to to this whole line of thinking, if there was 917 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,560 Speaker 1: a civilization that predated ours that was better and more sustainable, 918 00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,880 Speaker 1: they just wouldn't have done that. They wouldn't They would 919 00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,240 Speaker 1: have they would have been more thoughtful, they would have 920 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:32,280 Speaker 1: done a better job. Guys, we learned our lesson from Mars. Okay, 921 00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,960 Speaker 1: we we they were very lucky to have a mulligan here. 922 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,360 Speaker 1: Let's do a better job next time, and for some reason, 923 00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:43,920 Speaker 1: let's make sure we keep it a secret. So MAT's 924 00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,080 Speaker 1: I wish that's emphatic nod. There's doing. Is there a 925 00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,680 Speaker 1: science fiction story? There has to be. The twist is 926 00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,200 Speaker 1: that were the least evolved culture and civilization of them all. 927 00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah, and there are some uh, some academic 928 01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,440 Speaker 1: who have speculated the same thing. The argument is basically like, 929 01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:07,080 Speaker 1: would we want to talk to us knowing what we know? 930 01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:09,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I said it before, and I know we're 931 01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:13,480 Speaker 1: running along here, But imagine if you are an extraterrestrial 932 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,760 Speaker 1: and you're an advanced civilization, then you have to understand 933 01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,640 Speaker 1: that Earth looks like a really trashy house with a 934 01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,720 Speaker 1: bunch of rusted appliances out in the front yard. You know, 935 01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,360 Speaker 1: we got cars on bricks, We got like, you know, 936 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,400 Speaker 1: the space equivalent of a of a half open fridge 937 01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,600 Speaker 1: just dangling somewhere. Who knows what it's gonna fall? Drive 938 01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:39,800 Speaker 1: by that house. Yeah, it's like a universal Jeff Foxworthy joke, 939 01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:44,360 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, just so. And Okay, there's another caveat 940 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,360 Speaker 1: all this Again the small sample size. All the stuff 941 01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,360 Speaker 1: humans are looking at is all the stuff humans have done. 942 01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:57,640 Speaker 1: So the assumption then is that other civilizations would have 943 01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:02,240 Speaker 1: approached the industrial age and technology the way humans did. 944 01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:07,640 Speaker 1: It is completely possible some earlier civilization took a different path. 945 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,160 Speaker 1: Human beings could be the outlier. That's a huge part 946 01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,080 Speaker 1: of the issue. This this thing leads to um what's 947 01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:19,320 Speaker 1: called unfalsifiable speculation. That is a much fancier, much more 948 01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,600 Speaker 1: diplomatic way of saying someone could make something up off 949 01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,680 Speaker 1: the top of their head, claim it's true, and confidently go, well, 950 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,240 Speaker 1: you can't prove it didn't happen anytime someone checks on them. 951 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,320 Speaker 1: What's the villain nouva movie where they do make it's 952 01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:37,479 Speaker 1: not contacts, and they do make contact, and of course 953 01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,440 Speaker 1: the alien species doesn't resemble us at all, and they 954 01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:42,600 Speaker 1: have to figure out how to you know, communicate with 955 01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:46,080 Speaker 1: it in some very kind of broad general way, which 956 01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:49,920 Speaker 1: one is that arrival? Thank you, That's that's exactly right. 957 01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:51,800 Speaker 1: And we've been saying that the whole time. Of course, 958 01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:54,919 Speaker 1: they wouldn't approach industrialization the same because they probably don't 959 01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:56,800 Speaker 1: even have the same equipment that we do. They would 960 01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,000 Speaker 1: have to like, you know, suit it to their own 961 01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:03,480 Speaker 1: their own bodily needs and and the nutritional needs and 962 01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:08,080 Speaker 1: civilization all if that's the word needs m Yeah. And 963 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,640 Speaker 1: I know we're naming a lot of like sci fi authors. 964 01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,520 Speaker 1: This is just perfect for it. Uh. Check out writer 965 01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:20,120 Speaker 1: named Adrian Tchaikovsky. Uh, this spelled like the composer. Uh. 966 01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:24,200 Speaker 1: This guy wrote a series called Children of Time Children 967 01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:29,200 Speaker 1: of ruin which no spoilers, examines how different life forms 968 01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:33,400 Speaker 1: might evolve an approach technology differently. That's a huge part 969 01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:40,200 Speaker 1: of the Silurian hypothesis. The authors said, look, okay, we're skeptical. 970 01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,360 Speaker 1: We can't prove it, but it's interesting. We're not in 971 01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,680 Speaker 1: it for the money. We want other people to look 972 01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:51,280 Speaker 1: at this. We're priming the pump for future scientists and 973 01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:57,640 Speaker 1: it should be uh fascinating. There's an addictive, frustrating allure 974 01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:05,520 Speaker 1: to the Silurian hypothesis. Humanity overall cannot completely rule it out. 975 01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:11,000 Speaker 1: I'm doing the explosion noise that stuff to blow your 976 01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,600 Speaker 1: mind noise. You can't prove it didn't happen, which is nuts. 977 01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,800 Speaker 1: That's a problem, a problem we're not going to solve today. 978 01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:21,600 Speaker 1: But we do want to know what you think about it. Seriously, 979 01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,440 Speaker 1: what do you think? Have you found anything? Do you 980 01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:27,120 Speaker 1: know of anybody doing research into this stuff? Right now? 981 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:31,400 Speaker 1: Just what are your thoughts? You know, grounded or high 982 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,600 Speaker 1: or whatever? We want to hear them. That's right. You 983 01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:36,800 Speaker 1: can find us all over the internet. We are conspiracy 984 01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:40,640 Speaker 1: stuff on YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook, or we have a 985 01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,760 Speaker 1: Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy conspiracy stuff show 986 01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:48,320 Speaker 1: on Instagram. And if that doesn't quite bag your badgers. 987 01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:52,280 Speaker 1: If your hypothesis is that one should not sip the 988 01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,360 Speaker 1: social meds, then we have another way to contact us. 989 01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:58,720 Speaker 1: That's our telephone number. Say it with me, folks, one 990 01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,760 Speaker 1: three S T D W y t K. You'll have 991 01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,880 Speaker 1: a beep like so beep. You'll have three minutes. Those 992 01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,000 Speaker 1: three minutes are your own. Go nuts. Give yourself the nickname, 993 01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:11,400 Speaker 1: the code name you always want to tell us what's 994 01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:13,640 Speaker 1: on your mind. Tell us whether or not we can 995 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,920 Speaker 1: share your name and or voice on the air, and 996 01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,120 Speaker 1: most importantly, don't censor yourself. If you have more to say, 997 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:24,200 Speaker 1: we want to hear it all. Write it out for us. 998 01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,280 Speaker 1: Give us the links, give us the pictures. As I've 999 01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:28,800 Speaker 1: been saying lately, take us to the edge of the 1000 01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:30,800 Speaker 1: rabbit hole. We will do the rest. All you have 1001 01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:32,840 Speaker 1: to do is drop us a line at our good 1002 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,360 Speaker 1: old fashioned email address where we are conspiracy at i 1003 01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:57,840 Speaker 1: heeart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want you to 1004 01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,640 Speaker 1: Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more 1005 01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,479 Speaker 1: podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 1006 01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:06,400 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,