Speaker 1: I'm Matt Miller and I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is
Speaker 1: hot pursuit.
Speaker 2: All right. Today on the show, as it is nearly
Speaker 2: the end of the year, we decided to do our
Speaker 2: winners and losers for twenty twenty three. We both put
Speaker 2: together kind of lists. I think they're slightly different in form,
Speaker 2: but that's good. How do you want to do this, Hannah?
Speaker 1: You should say your winners, and I say my winners,
Speaker 1: and then you say your losers and I say my losers.
Speaker 2: So the one winner that I kind of just thought
Speaker 2: about today when I was driving over here is South
Speaker 2: Korean automotive conglomerates that I think has made such an
Speaker 2: impact on at least American consumers in twenty twenty three
Speaker 2: that it's notable, and that is Hyundai and Kia. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure exactly how they're connected. I know that Hyundai
Speaker 2: owns like a thirty three percent stake in Kia, and
Speaker 2: Kia owns various steaks and Hyundai subsidiaries, but suffice it
Speaker 2: to say they're a group, right, so and Genesis don't
Speaker 2: get yeah, and they have Genesis to that's the Hyundai
Speaker 2: luxuryary in which Kia has a stick but so you know,
Speaker 2: I just heard about the hypes surrounding the Tell You
Speaker 2: Ride last year, and this year it's just like I
Speaker 2: finally people have started to be able to buy them,
Speaker 2: because the wait list was almost a year last year.
Speaker 2: Plus there is the EV six, which Kia makes. I
Speaker 2: always confuse. One makes the EV six, I think, and
Speaker 2: the other one makes the Ionic five. Yes, yes, those
Speaker 2: are the two hot hatch like electric vehicles that are just,
Speaker 2: I mean amazing. I've driven the Kia version. I prefer
Speaker 2: the look of the Hyundai version. They're mechanically the same
Speaker 2: under the skin, They're awesome. Yeah, especially for the price
Speaker 2: because you can get in at like forty five grand
Speaker 2: and have an amazing, super fast time the GT I
Speaker 2: wish it had wider wheels. There things I would change,
Speaker 2: but it's so fast that made a friend of mine
Speaker 2: throw up.
Speaker 1: Do you think, Okay, that's impressive. Do you think that
Speaker 1: the interiors stand up better than like big three type
Speaker 1: vehicles on the same level in terms of quality?
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. In terms of quality. I am
Speaker 2: admittedly spoiled, and I like higher price cars both to
Speaker 2: drive and to buy nice things. But I think you know,
Speaker 2: at that price point. I mean, the interior seemed awesome
Speaker 2: to me. It's not too much. It's not a luxury car,
Speaker 2: and that's not what you expect of it. But they
Speaker 2: I think the layouts were elegant and I never had
Speaker 2: a problem figuring out how to use them. Plus, they
Speaker 2: have the EV nine coming out, which I think is
Speaker 2: universally accepted as the best three row evy that you're
Speaker 2: going to be able to buy. Yes, in any price point.
Speaker 1: Drove it, loved it was really right, So I drove
Speaker 1: it shockingly. Yeah, because we don't even we don't typically
Speaker 1: cover Kia and Hyundai on pursuits.
Speaker 2: They're reaching on price right, they really are fifty five gran.
Speaker 1: Yes, and they did say, hey, look we're going to
Speaker 1: kind of shoot for Rivian, We're going to kind of
Speaker 1: shoot for Volvo maybe some land Rover crossover. So they
Speaker 1: are making no bones about the fact that they're ready
Speaker 1: to fight a little bit for consumers. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: was really pleasantly surprised. I thought it was great well.
Speaker 2: And the logo change that Kia did wasn't this year.
Speaker 2: But I think all of these things combined just make
Speaker 2: it a huge twenty twenty three winner. The logo I
Speaker 2: think allows the brand to be more aspirational than it
Speaker 2: was because it was an eco logo and now it's
Speaker 2: super cool.
Speaker 1: It's like nine inch nails. I know I've said that before,
Speaker 1: but I can't unsee it. But it's true. That is
Speaker 1: a case of you know, sometimes logo rebrands don't go
Speaker 1: very well, but this one I think was great.
Speaker 2: Right, And you mentioned Genesis, like that's they make head
Speaker 2: turning cars. Just yesterday the Shopwright parking lot, I saw
Speaker 2: a green and I love any car maker that puts
Speaker 2: out of green Genesis suv and I just turned around
Speaker 2: like what's that? Yeah? Yeah, cool?
Speaker 1: And everybody tells me that in Korea that is really
Speaker 1: the status symbol car and I don't think that's going
Speaker 1: to change. I think that's only going to increase.
Speaker 2: And their quality has increased. I mean, the cars are
Speaker 2: fun to drive, they're affordable. The prices are rising, obviously,
Speaker 2: but you know they're still fairly affordable considering the market.
Speaker 2: So I just think Hondai Kia is just a huge
Speaker 2: winner in.
Speaker 1: Twenty I love it, Yeah, I love it. Okay. My
Speaker 1: top winner is not going to be a surprise to anyone.
Speaker 1: It's Ferrari everybody wants to be Ferrari. Of course, you know,
Speaker 1: they are sold out until twenty twenty five. They've got
Speaker 1: wildly high margins, they've got resilient demand. They are doing
Speaker 1: pretty well in this economy, you know, where some automakers
Speaker 1: like Mercedes and BMW are really susceptible to high interest
Speaker 1: rates and sort of thing. Ferrari skims the top of that.
Speaker 1: They're kind of like Urmes. A lot of the analysis
Speaker 1: that I read from our intelligence side here at Bloomberg
Speaker 1: compares Ferrari to Armes and other a couple other high
Speaker 1: fashion brands like Brunello Cucinelli, just because of the fact
Speaker 1: that they're they're really hard to get. Their owners are
Speaker 1: not just affluent, but truly wealthy. You know, they've raised
Speaker 1: sales guidance twice this year. You know, every analyst report
Speaker 1: says that every other automaker, especially Portia, you know, people
Speaker 1: are targeting Ferrari, and they're actually not even close. It's
Speaker 1: just in a league of its own. I want to
Speaker 1: talk about the Proro song.
Speaker 2: What I was just gonna say, So what I mean
Speaker 2: the thing is all the things you said about Ferrari
Speaker 2: could be said almost every year, right, Yes, yes, but
Speaker 2: it's a huge winner in the stock market too.
Speaker 1: I mean, this was a challenging year and it didn't
Speaker 1: really touch Ferrari at all.
Speaker 2: But yeah, well, I think the one thing that Ferrari's
Speaker 2: done this year that's the most notable that even non
Speaker 2: gearheads would know, is they put out that no suv.
Speaker 1: No. No, First, Matt, I have to ask, have you
Speaker 1: driven it?
Speaker 2: I have not driven it?
Speaker 1: No, So what I have?
Speaker 2: So I've neither driven it nor have I seen it
Speaker 2: in real life? Oh god, I've only seen pictures of it. Okay, right,
Speaker 2: the pictures I have seen it is horrendous.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Do you think that you
Speaker 1: come off better in person are a photograph?
Speaker 2: Definitely in person? And that's why I make that caveat
Speaker 2: That's why they get a caby. Also, you've driven it,
Speaker 2: so you're gonna have a better idea of it in
Speaker 2: the specs alone. You know, Lamborghini put out an suv
Speaker 2: that really looks cool, but it's a disappointing powertrain. If
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be honest, Yeah, you're kidding me. You get
Speaker 2: the same powertrain in a Porsche or an Audi.
Speaker 1: We haven't discussed this. I'm a big Ears fan. I
Speaker 1: thought it was fabulous, so fun and really captured the
Speaker 1: look Unlike I would agree with you the pro Songgua
Speaker 1: doesn't look great in the photographs that have been circulated.
Speaker 1: I do agree with you in that, but in person
Speaker 1: it looks a bit better. But I will say Lamborghini
Speaker 1: did beat it on that point that I think the
Speaker 1: Urs really captured the Lamborghini ethos better than fra.
Speaker 2: Guy able to do. Love the Urus. I've driven it
Speaker 2: a bunch in Italy, in Germany, and they got here
Speaker 2: in New York. Yeah, I think it's the interior is sweet.
Speaker 2: All of that is great. I guess what I could
Speaker 2: say the same thing about a Cayenne a Cayenne Turbo.
Speaker 1: You would be this amazing, You'd be that excited about it.
Speaker 2: No meaning, here's the thing. If we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about cars that I can't now afford and probably never
Speaker 2: will be able to afford anyway, it's kind of we're
Speaker 2: talking about these myths, right and to me, there has
Speaker 2: to be something extra about a Ferrari and a Lamborghini,
Speaker 2: a Cayenne an Audi using the same powertrain. It takes
Speaker 2: a little away from me of the Urus and Lamborghini
Speaker 2: will say, well, we've made it our own. Fine. The
Speaker 2: point is it's about charged V eight. Now give me
Speaker 2: at least a ten like a Hurrican or a twelve
Speaker 2: like Ferrari Zone. So I applaud them for at least
Speaker 2: doing that.
Speaker 1: You know, we'll see next year how sales go. I
Speaker 1: don't disagree with you that it doesn't photograph great, but
Speaker 1: in person you've seen the meme.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course it looks so much like the Masta.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to say it, but it does. But honestly,
Speaker 1: having driven it and photographed it extensively in person, it
Speaker 1: does look better in person, and it is fun to drive.
Speaker 2: So all right, so I look forward to check right
Speaker 2: out here. Great, it's cool no matter what. Anyway, I
Speaker 2: have a winner that you previously would have disagreed with
Speaker 2: me on. But I think I'm winning you over, and
Speaker 2: I think the American buying public is being won over
Speaker 2: as well. Hybrids. I've loved hybrids since the I three
Speaker 2: and the I eight to BMW. They came with range extenders.
Speaker 2: They were electric cars that came with range extenders. I
Speaker 2: still love both of those cars, even the three, so
Speaker 2: fun to drive in city. Hybrids are now the big winner.
Speaker 2: And I think link to this is also Toyota. Okay,
Speaker 2: Toyota has to be a huge winner here because all
Speaker 2: of these bleeding heart liberal news organizations were writing hand
Speaker 2: ringing stories about how Toyota has lost because they haven't
Speaker 2: invested enough in evs. Right. The New York Times wrote
Speaker 2: a piece like that in September. I think we wrote
Speaker 2: a piece like that too. But the truth is, electric vehicles,
Speaker 2: as we know from last week, are sitting on the
Speaker 2: lot for more than fifty days before they sell. Ice
Speaker 2: vehicles are sitting on the lot for forty days before
Speaker 2: they sell. Hybrids only take eighteen days to disappear. Consumers
Speaker 2: are snapping them up, and big companies like Ford have
Speaker 2: who were making these full on like Sierra Club pushes
Speaker 2: into evs, have now said, well, you know what, that's
Speaker 2: maybe not such a great idea. It's gonna cost us
Speaker 2: four and a half billion dollars this year, and losses
Speaker 2: are saying we're gonna, we're gonna tilt words hybrids. I
Speaker 2: think that is a pragmatic of Ford be the smart
Speaker 2: move because I feel like hybrids are a winner for
Speaker 2: the consumer. And see Toyota turns out looking pretty smart
Speaker 2: in the end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right about that. Here's my question. Do you
Speaker 1: actually think people charge the battery of their hybrid. I
Speaker 1: know you do, But my whole.
Speaker 2: Thing is like, they don't have to be all plug
Speaker 2: in hybrids.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're talking mild hybrid and plug in.
Speaker 2: Mild hybrids are huge winners as well. Okay, I mean
Speaker 2: that much bigger winners. In fact, the CEO, I think
Speaker 2: in the CEO of BMW North America was telling me like,
Speaker 2: it's not about the plug in hybrid, because it's not
Speaker 2: about the plug for consumers who don't want full evs.
Speaker 2: They don't want to mess with that. No, they don't
Speaker 2: want to install something new in the garage. They don't
Speaker 2: want to figure out how to you know, they don't
Speaker 2: want to wait in line at a charging station. They're
Speaker 2: just the mild hybrid is enough because you still are
Speaker 2: going to get I mean, what do you get on
Speaker 2: a prius in terms of miles per gallony?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's seventy eight eighty. I do think you're totally right.
Speaker 1: You know, we keep thinking maybe people will be a
Speaker 1: little altruistic or whatever, but I think there's been no
Speaker 1: movement at all in consumer readiness to inconvenience themselves. When
Speaker 1: it comes to electric vehicles, if it is at all inconvenient,
Speaker 1: they don't want it. They don't have the time, they
Speaker 1: don't have the energy, they don't have the patience. You know,
Speaker 1: it's got to be exactly a one to one switch
Speaker 1: or they don't want it.
Speaker 2: By the way, according to topspeed dot Com twenty twenty three,
Speaker 2: Toyota Prius gets fifty seven miles.
Speaker 1: To get to combined.
Speaker 2: Okay, but that's amazing. You know, I drive cars they
Speaker 2: can combine.
Speaker 1: Okay. Another winner, I'm gonna say Rolls Royce, mostly because
Speaker 1: they are this stayed, strong and steady brand. This is
Speaker 1: the year that they first brought out their first electric car,
Speaker 1: the five hundred thousand dollars Specter.
Speaker 2: Spector is such a great sector.
Speaker 1: It's an awesome name. It's like a James Bond movie.
Speaker 1: I've driven it. I liked it.
Speaker 2: Oh really, I don't know. You've driven.
Speaker 1: I went to Cape Town to drive it.
Speaker 2: Oh oh yeah. I would give my right arm to
Speaker 2: drive it. I'm left handed, and I'm sure it's an automatic.
Speaker 2: Yeah it is.
Speaker 1: It's more Rolls Royce than Rolls Royce that's what I
Speaker 1: would say, Like Rolls Royce is the brand that makes
Speaker 1: itself all about smooth, silent ride like a ghost. Well,
Speaker 1: the specter being electric is exactly that. You know, if
Speaker 1: there's any application for electric propulsion, it kind of I
Speaker 1: can see it in Rolls Royce and actually Rolls Royce
Speaker 1: the executives at Rolls Royce had said one hundred years
Speaker 1: ago that ultimately they believe their vehicles would go electric,
Speaker 1: and that's one hundred years ago. So yeah, spector, big fan.
Speaker 1: Rolls Royce also this year brought out their thirty million
Speaker 1: dollar droptail. We touched on it a week or two ago.
Speaker 1: You know this business where they make literally.
Speaker 2: One thirty million dollar jay Z bought it.
Speaker 1: No, no, they tell you no. The publicists sort of
Speaker 1: started a whispering campaign about that, but that's not accurate.
Speaker 1: So these multi multi million dollar one off bespoke creations
Speaker 1: that are basically designed from the ground up by ultra
Speaker 1: wealthy families is a really big business for Rolls Royce
Speaker 1: and they're doing multiple of them a year, so that's
Speaker 1: really good. Their CEO, Torsten Muller oat Vost, just announced
Speaker 1: his retirement after fourteen years. He really brought the company
Speaker 1: from the dark ages into now the world of evs.
Speaker 1: He arrived before Ghost, before colon In really modernized the company.
Speaker 1: And then just the fact that their order books are
Speaker 1: full for years to come. You know, they hired more
Speaker 1: than one hundred people in twenty twenty two to basically
Speaker 1: help fill out their order books making these cars. They're
Speaker 1: just so strong and solid. And you know, while we
Speaker 1: see so much volatility, the people who are buying Rolls
Speaker 1: Royces are not affected.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't I don't disagree. It's one of
Speaker 2: my favorite brands of all time. You know, one of
Speaker 2: my favorite cars of all time is the Ghost. I
Speaker 2: drove it first drove it in twenty ten with Torsten Amazing,
Speaker 2: and that was just around the island of Manhattan. But
Speaker 2: I already knew like this is the greatest luxury car.
Speaker 2: It's another one of those brands I probably will never
Speaker 2: be able to afford in my lifetime to buy my
Speaker 2: own new one.
Speaker 1: I mean, I was going to say, you know, you
Speaker 1: can get an older one for pretty cheap.
Speaker 2: I know somebody who has one, and I am dying
Speaker 2: to drive the Specter because I've read so many car
Speaker 2: magazine You know that UK car magazine that's just called Car.
Speaker 2: She they listed as I think the best electric car
Speaker 2: money can buy, like if money's no options, And obviously,
Speaker 2: because it is clearly the pinnacle of luxury Rolls Royce
Speaker 2: and Electric totally makes sense because what you want in
Speaker 2: that kind of car is boltloads of torque.
Speaker 1: Yes, and you want no sound frankly exactly, That's exactly right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: big fan, all right.
Speaker 2: My final third winner is Tesla, which almost pains me
Speaker 2: to say because I'm annoyed by the company for so
Speaker 2: many reasons. Oh wow, And I think the design is
Speaker 2: like long in the tooth. I think the interiors are
Speaker 2: too spartan Elon Musk he like bought Twitter like, which
Speaker 2: doesn't seem terribly intelligent to me, but especially not for
Speaker 2: forty four billion dollars. But this doc has crushed it,
Speaker 2: I mean crushed it. I wanted to buy Tesla when
Speaker 2: I first heard about the brand and they were coming
Speaker 2: to market, and Jason Harper gave me a ride in
Speaker 2: the Roadster, which I oh wow, which was I thought
Speaker 2: was so awesome. You know, I had never driven I'd
Speaker 2: never driven an electric car before.
Speaker 1: Oh that was your first?
Speaker 2: Yeah wow? And I can't even remember if I was.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I think he let me like drive it around a
Speaker 2: parking lot. Ye, mainly Jason drove me up to Bear Mountain.
Speaker 2: We barely made it back. I thought, Man, I want
Speaker 2: to buy these shares. I couldn't. I can't buy shares
Speaker 2: because I'm an anchor on Bloomberg TV. Bloomberg journalists can't
Speaker 2: do that. We would. I would have to disclose it.
Speaker 2: It would be a pain and it really wouldn't work
Speaker 2: for a journalist. But if I had, I would be
Speaker 2: so loaded. And the shares are up again this year,
Speaker 2: more than double, and we're not even at the end
Speaker 2: of the year yet. It's an eight hundred and twenty
Speaker 2: billion dollar company, which is like if you put Ford
Speaker 2: together with GM and then multiplied them by eight, they
Speaker 2: still be smaller. I mean, even with the silliness that
Speaker 2: the cyber truck is, it's a colossus. Tesla is a colossus. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just can't get excited about the cars. That's too bad.
Speaker 2: I mean, oh, yeah, I agree with you on that.
Speaker 2: I'm just I have two on my lists that are
Speaker 2: like from the investment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say, that's like an on paper assessment.
Speaker 2: And I'll get to the other one. But you have
Speaker 2: your last winner.
Speaker 1: Oh, I was just gonna say, I think consumers won
Speaker 1: this year. I mean we have. This is the first
Speaker 1: year we have like dozens of evs to choose from.
Speaker 1: Every auto maker, every luxury auto maker is all about
Speaker 1: customization and making the car your own and offering more
Speaker 1: options and more packages for details. And I just think
Speaker 1: consumers have more choices than ever. Cars are safer than ever,
Speaker 1: there are more opportunities to customize and make the car
Speaker 1: feel like your own. I mean it's basically seamless now
Speaker 1: between your house, your phone, and your car. These are
Speaker 1: all huge wins. And this is a great time to
Speaker 1: be a consumer because you can you can get kind
Speaker 1: of whatever you want.
Speaker 2: I get what you're saying. Oh no, I disagree on
Speaker 2: a couple levels. Affordability is like out of control, like unaffordable.
Speaker 1: Well I didn't say. I didn't say cars were affordable, No,
Speaker 1: I know, but consumers like.
Speaker 2: What can you buy? Right if you're a regular person
Speaker 2: in terms of key of cars, even Akia is a
Speaker 2: reach in terms of new cars for the average American, right,
Speaker 2: I mean what I was For example, I drove the
Speaker 2: Nissan Araya. Recently, I thought, man, this is a sweet car,
Speaker 2: and I went to configure one and I was already
Speaker 2: got over sixty thousand dollars. Yeah, the I mean the
Speaker 2: F one fifty Lightning. I haven't driven yet. Actually it's
Speaker 2: one of my losers, which I'll get to in a second,
Speaker 2: but it's so expensive that I don't think it would
Speaker 2: be the kind of choice my wife would approve, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean they're just out of control expensive, and it
Speaker 2: annoys me that they're moving away from the cars of
Speaker 2: my youth. You know, there's no more muscle. Those are
Speaker 2: all dead. V eight's are like practice illegal, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, Ford started moving away from the vas long ago,
Speaker 2: and it's just been heartbreaking for me when they took
Speaker 2: it out of the Raptor and now it's an ecoboostah
Speaker 2: that's like tear jerking. You know.
Speaker 1: This might be a little controversial, but all of your
Speaker 1: points that you're just saying kind of support this philosophy
Speaker 1: that I personally have, which is I don't buy new cars. Yes,
Speaker 1: like the bigger the bigger picture here is if you
Speaker 1: want to help save the world for me, in my mind,
Speaker 1: don't buy new stuff that don't be consuming. Use what
Speaker 1: already exists, you know, and that I'm such a big
Speaker 1: believer in like, use what's already out there, don't buy,
Speaker 1: don't create a need for people to manufacture more stuff.
Speaker 2: No, you're you're one hundred percent right. I agree, and uh,
Speaker 2: And I aim to stop buying new cars. I really do.
Speaker 2: In fact, my last car that I bought knew was
Speaker 2: the Dodge Challenger, which is like actually thirteen or fourteen
Speaker 2: years old, right.
Speaker 1: I mean it's almost vintage by now, I don't.
Speaker 2: Know, and it's a few more years. And I wanted
Speaker 2: all the options that I wanted. No, it's one hundred
Speaker 2: percent true. And there are a lot of cars Porsche,
Speaker 2: for example, I mean, yeah, I'd love to have an
Speaker 2: ST yeah me, but I wouldn't we all, I can't
Speaker 2: afford that, right, And I wouldn't really want base nine
Speaker 2: to eleven right now, they're amazing interesting. Really why I
Speaker 2: could is that an ego? I could buy a nine
Speaker 2: nine one or I could buy nine six four. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean for less money, I could buy a great
Speaker 2: condition nine six four.
Speaker 1: You'd rather get an older one than a brand new? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you get a better one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, then you have a air cooled motor. You have
Speaker 2: you know, an old stick, you have the classic classic look.
Speaker 2: I mean, I love looking the new ones and they're amazing.
Speaker 2: I drove the Caraarer Tea, yeah, and I fell in love.
Speaker 1: So cool.
Speaker 2: But I could for less money, I could get a
Speaker 2: sweet old one, and that's even a better kind of keepsake. Porsche,
Speaker 2: by the way, kicks off my list of losers. Oh wow, wow,
Speaker 2: wow wow. This is another end a seat based, investment
Speaker 2: based and I mean, I don't know if it's fair,
Speaker 2: but his shares are losing. They're down fourteen percent in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, which is stocks are on fire. Every
Speaker 2: other major car maker in the Western world, right and
Speaker 2: in Asia. I'm not sure about Chinese public trade car
Speaker 2: to know. If I look at Toyota, if I look
Speaker 2: at Grenaud, if I look at Honda, if I look
Speaker 2: at BMW, Mercedes Volkswagen former owner. If I look at uh,
Speaker 2: you know, Ford, General Motors, Stilantis crushing it right, second
Speaker 2: biggest winner. If I look at any other major car maker,
Speaker 2: they're all up for the year. Porsche shares are down
Speaker 2: fifteen percent. Why what happened?
Speaker 1: What are you seeing? I do not know.
Speaker 2: I think they just went out too expensive. So you know, folks,
Speaker 2: fagn did a great job of selling Porsche, maybe at
Speaker 2: the ex act right time. They sold at the top. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and if you bought those shares, I mean, even if
Speaker 2: you've got syndicate in the IPO, you're just yeah, you're
Speaker 2: just treading water.
Speaker 1: I know that has been a bit of a disappointment
Speaker 1: because you know, they they were thinking, hey, maybe we
Speaker 1: can close the gap with Ferrari. Back to my evergreen
Speaker 1: Ferrari is a winner, and it's it's only widening. And
Speaker 1: I do think Porsche is more susceptible to some of
Speaker 1: these factors like interest rate, high interest rates than Ferrari
Speaker 1: buyer of course, yes, because that hurts them. Hurts the margins.
Speaker 2: I mean, Ferrari has like twenty percent margins. Yeah, only
Speaker 2: Tesla can do that.
Speaker 1: Rolls, Royce and Bentley have pretty healthy margins too, Like yes.
Speaker 2: Hire they're owned right. Yeah. Before Ferrari was spun out
Speaker 2: of Fiat, Porsia was the most profitable car maker in
Speaker 2: the world. That was our Bloomberg News tagline. We'd write
Speaker 2: Porsha the most profitable car maker in the world. Then
Speaker 2: the whole folkswaging fiasco happened, then Tesla was invented, and
Speaker 2: now Ferrari. But at the time, you know, their margins
Speaker 2: were the end of everybody, and now they're they're good,
Speaker 2: but they're not.
Speaker 1: The last time I checked, they were still the most
Speaker 1: profitable brand at VW and the nine to eleven of
Speaker 1: course has the highest margin at Porsche, which is not
Speaker 1: for nothing. But that's a real bold statement that you're
Speaker 1: going to put them on that list.
Speaker 2: But you know, well, I just maybe that's not fair
Speaker 2: just from an I figured I should throw in one
Speaker 2: from an investment perspective since it's flunger of course. No, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: obviously I'm a Porsche fanboy.
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't need a disclaimer.
Speaker 2: Had a nine to eleven and I loved it so much,
Speaker 2: and I wouldn't have sold it if I didn't have to.
Speaker 1: They made car seats for no.
Speaker 2: No, you know, I sold it. I bought my nine
Speaker 2: to eleven here and it was like my dream car.
Speaker 2: I had finally achieved one of my number one dreams.
Speaker 2: And then I had had to move for work to Germany. Okay,
Speaker 2: I paid to ship it over there. It was like
Speaker 2: four or five thousand dollars, and I thank goodness I
Speaker 2: did that because driving my nine to eleven on the
Speaker 2: Autobahn for five years was worth it. Ith. But then
Speaker 2: they moved me back here to New York, you know,
Speaker 2: at the end of the pandemic, and the shipping costs
Speaker 2: had gone up four fold. I called all around and
Speaker 2: I was getting twenty thousand dollars quotes.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm a freighter.
Speaker 2: Seventy thousand dollars car back to America for you know,
Speaker 2: as a twenty fourteen nine nine to one. Ass loved it,
Speaker 2: but I'm not spending that much money to ship it
Speaker 2: back on a freighter. No, so I sold it there.
Speaker 1: And you did you come up on the car selling
Speaker 1: it in Germany or no?
Speaker 2: I lost a little bit, Okay, I got it for
Speaker 2: I got it used in twenty fourteen for ninety grand,
Speaker 2: which was a great deal, and then I sold it
Speaker 2: for like seventy okay, well in euros, Yeah, so maybe
Speaker 2: seventy five grand.
Speaker 1: Sure, all right, sorry for your loss.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved it. Someday when the kids go to college,
Speaker 2: graduate from college, or sometime after, that's what's your losing.
Speaker 1: The first one I'm going to say, are just in
Speaker 1: general electric pickup trucks, because this was something at least,
Speaker 1: you know, for me that I was kind of watching
Speaker 1: for the past few years, like, oh, this would really
Speaker 1: make sense. The best selling vehicle in America for the
Speaker 1: past four decades has been a truck. It makes sense
Speaker 1: that you know, you could put him in fleets electrify him.
Speaker 1: But it is not panned out that way exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it does not panned out that way at all. I mean,
Speaker 1: like you mentioned, we've got EV's sitting on lots. Ford
Speaker 1: and GM have walked back targets for production and sales,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's just they're kind of hedging everything.
Speaker 2: Now cyber truck is like what years, four years later.
Speaker 1: Ten they've delivered ten. Yeah, you know, Jim Farley saying
Speaker 1: he wants to focus on hybrids. It just it's the
Speaker 1: first time that I'm like, oh, the future here is
Speaker 1: uncertain with respect to the electric pickup truck.
Speaker 2: Now, I will say my second loser was the F
Speaker 2: one fifteen Lightning, so kind of the same thing and
Speaker 2: for the same reasons, mainly because you know, Ford's lost
Speaker 2: They were gonna lose three billion this year. Now they're
Speaker 2: going to lose four and a half billion now maybe
Speaker 2: more on electric cars. They've cut their F one fifty
Speaker 2: Lightning production in half from thirty two hundred a week
Speaker 2: to sixteen hundred a week. Yeah, I shot they had
Speaker 2: like a waiting list. But I will give the caveat that.
Speaker 2: I have not driven the F one fifty Lightning, nor
Speaker 2: have I driven any electric pickup have you.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've driven the Ford and I thought it was great.
Speaker 2: Because my buddy Paul Sweeney spent a week in the
Speaker 2: Lightning and he loved it. And he's a BMW fanboy
Speaker 2: so and he likes an M five, he likes a
Speaker 2: sports car, and he was a fan. But he loved it.
Speaker 2: He never he didn't ever drive a pickup truck before
Speaker 2: in his life, you know. And I don't think he'd
Speaker 2: ever driven an electric vehicle either. So he spent a
Speaker 2: week with this and he's you know, charging it at
Speaker 2: his golf club, you know. But he said it was amazing.
Speaker 2: He loved it so much. Even the he had no
Speaker 2: range anxiety, he had no problem keeping it charged like
Speaker 2: he was. He was a It was just too expensive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the expense is a huge thing, you know,
Speaker 1: that they put all of this effort into electrifying something
Speaker 1: that's really big and really heavy, and you kind of
Speaker 1: have to charge a lot to earn your money back.
Speaker 1: And I don't get the sense that the guys going
Speaker 1: out to the work sites every day in Los Angeles
Speaker 1: want an electric vehicle. Okay, so my next loser is Lucid. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this has not been a good year for Lucid, which
Speaker 1: you know, initially had such fanfare and such a glow
Speaker 1: about it as you know, the second second coming of
Speaker 1: a true Tesla competitor.
Speaker 2: You know, the top of the line Lucid Air has
Speaker 2: four horse power.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know that's the only car they make.
Speaker 1: And the problem is they can't increase factory output or
Speaker 1: hike prices because there isn't sufficient demand for the one
Speaker 1: car they make. They're losing money on every car they sell.
Speaker 1: They were initially valued at like fifty five billion dollars
Speaker 1: when the Saudi's bought them, and now they're worth just
Speaker 1: over five billion. They're just they're not cash flow positive.
Speaker 1: They've laid off eighteen percent of their workforce this year.
Speaker 1: You know, they're not meeting production numbers as it is.
Speaker 1: It's just kind of a mess. Yeah, and you know,
Speaker 1: I drove an air a couple of years ago and
Speaker 1: the fabrication on it was not good. And I do
Speaker 1: tend to think products are very insightful about how a
Speaker 1: company is run, really, because if you, I mean, if
Speaker 1: the product, which is what consumers see, is not in
Speaker 1: a good place, how is everything behind the scenes where
Speaker 1: consumers can't see it. It's like this kitchen or the
Speaker 1: bathroom in a restaurant.
Speaker 2: You know, especially, I mean the top of the line
Speaker 2: Lucid air costs I think two hundred and fifty grand.
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't think it's you think the top of
Speaker 1: the line one costs two hundred oh to make? Sorry,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say not the price.
Speaker 2: The price, the price come from to fifty.
Speaker 1: They're losing money on everyone, and they're actually.
Speaker 2: Losing more than four hundred thousand dollars on each one.
Speaker 2: Well if you if you average it out. I just
Speaker 2: saw a story on the Bloomberg highlighting that number. Joel
Speaker 2: Levington may have written it.
Speaker 1: Joel. Yeah, he's so smart. I love reading his stuff.
Speaker 1: Thanks Joel for all the info. But yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: it's so they lose a.
Speaker 2: Ton and it's to me It's always been surprising because
Speaker 2: Alan Malally I think was on the board and was
Speaker 2: part of the whole uh move into the spac Churchill
Speaker 2: four or whatever. And he is a hero, right, Alan
Speaker 2: Molally turned around Ford. I mean he was a winner
Speaker 2: at Boeing, then a winner at Ford. I mean, he's
Speaker 2: I think he was on the board of Google. He's
Speaker 2: like an automotive or manufacturing and selling genius. And they
Speaker 2: still yeah, I can't believe they whiffed on that. Now
Speaker 2: I have Dodgen Chrysler. Oh boy, boy, do tell I'm
Speaker 2: just I could have put also just muscle cars in general,
Speaker 2: because there's no more pretty much no more American muscle car. Really,
Speaker 2: I could have put big inch naturally aspirated V eights,
Speaker 2: you know, because there's no more. This is the last
Speaker 2: year for the Challenger Charger, which had the six point
Speaker 2: four leader Hemi or the Supercharge six point two. Those
Speaker 2: are basically gone. You can still get the Supercharge six
Speaker 2: point two and a TRX, but I think, oh and
Speaker 2: you can still get the six point four liter Hemi
Speaker 2: and a Jeep Grand Wagoneer. But those are different, you know.
Speaker 2: Ram and Jeep are a different story. They're winners, huge winners,
Speaker 2: in fact, dodging Chrysler after this year. The only models
Speaker 2: that they make are the Chrysler Pacifica you know, Dak
Speaker 2: Shepherd's van.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, and they still make that.
Speaker 2: Yeah wow, oh no, and no, and Dodge makes the Hornet, oh,
Speaker 2: which is pretty cool. But you know, it's not the
Speaker 2: same as no, a Challenger Hellcat or a Jeep Cherokee
Speaker 2: track Hawk. I mean those things are right. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: these guys, if they don't turn it around, and they
Speaker 2: have an amazing motor. By the way, the Hurricane five
Speaker 2: to ten they're new straight six is awesome. Like I
Speaker 2: drove it in the in the Grand Wagon ear and
Speaker 2: I thought it was a V eight for like three
Speaker 2: days before I looked at the.
Speaker 1: Let me, let's do you think any anybody under the
Speaker 1: age of thirty cares?
Speaker 2: Probably not? And why not? Probably not? Well, the kids
Speaker 2: clearly don't like muscle cars. That's why the Camaro. This
Speaker 2: is I think the last year for the Camaro, you know,
Speaker 2: or next year. And anyway, the muscle the Camaro and
Speaker 2: the Mustang were becoming sports cars and the Mustang definitely
Speaker 2: is a sports car are now, so there's no more
Speaker 2: like cheap, big displacement, you know, rear wheel drive, front
Speaker 2: engine cars. Like I said, they only get thirteen miles
Speaker 2: a gallon, you know if you drive them right. So
Speaker 2: that's probably one of the big reasons. What else you got?
Speaker 1: Okay, so my last one for today, the last loser
Speaker 1: is Lotus And this is sort of with a caveat
Speaker 1: that this could also be a one to watch for
Speaker 1: next year because I do think that they have some
Speaker 1: good product. You know, I drove the Emira that was
Speaker 1: a fun sports cards kind of like a Cayman, and
Speaker 1: then the Electree there Suv. I haven't driven that yet,
Speaker 1: but I've seen that I've seen some positive reviews. So
Speaker 1: this is kind of like, maybe they have good products,
Speaker 1: but they only have like one and a half things
Speaker 1: that they're selling. Last year they literally sold one hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty cars in the United States period. And yet
Speaker 1: they're opening, you know, all of these new detail sites.
Speaker 1: They just open one in Mayfair.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, where's the dealership network? But they do. Actually, yeah,
Speaker 2: they've did.
Speaker 1: They opened one in China, and they're they're just they're
Speaker 1: dropping money. They had they laid off like two hundred
Speaker 1: people this year. So it's definitely not looking good. But
Speaker 1: they keep saying they've got a lot of things in
Speaker 1: the pipeline. So this is my loser slash. Well, just
Speaker 1: keep your eye on it, because who knows they do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're they're owned by Chili. I was just gonna say,
Speaker 1: so they've got some money.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not saying that's a knock on the
Speaker 2: quality these days at all, but it is, like evs,
Speaker 2: it'll be unpopular in America. Yeah. One thing they could
Speaker 2: do is come back to F one. That would be sweet.
Speaker 2: That would be really cool, but unlikely.
Speaker 1: But they need to make they need to make some
Speaker 1: more cars anyway. Yeah, that's I mean, old cool, old brand.
Speaker 1: It's a shame they can't get it together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're right, letus is a loser. All right.
Speaker 2: That's all we have time for this week. But we
Speaker 2: are going to record another one next week, right, Yes,
Speaker 2: we are all right. I am looking forward to that,
Speaker 2: Hannah waits. Until then, I'll be following you, uh and
Speaker 2: likewise on Instagram? What is your Hannah Elliott?
Speaker 1: It's Hannah Elliott XO.
Speaker 2: I'm Matt Miller nineteen seventy three, and what have you
Speaker 2: got coming up.
Speaker 1: So the nine to eleven st review finally came out today,
Speaker 1: so you can read that online at Bloomberg dot com.
Speaker 1: And then next week I'm going to have a recap
Speaker 1: of the best cars that I drove in all of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, so we can talk about those and
Speaker 1: maybe some predictions for twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: That's excellent. I'm Matt Miller, I'm Hannah Elliott, and this
Speaker 2: is Bloomberg