1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 2 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: My guest today is Snuffy Wall snuffing. Good dat, nice 3 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: to be here, Bob. Thanks. So how does it died 4 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: in the world rocker become a TV composer. Wow, that's 5 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: a that's an interesting story. Purely providence. Um, you know 6 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: I had I've spent a long time playing rock and 7 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: roll and then I got sober and was, you know, 8 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: just working with people. And somebody asked me, would you 9 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: be interested in scoring film and television? Ry Cooter priced 10 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: himself out of the business, so I said, sure, why not? 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: And Uh, I went up for a couple of films 12 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: and couldn't get him because I had never written a 13 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: queue for music for film. And then I got this 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: opportunity to go audition for this little show. And you know, 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: it's a long story, but we'll tell the story. That's 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: why this is your great day. Well, I got this upper. 17 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: This agent approached me. I was playing with Michael Ruff 18 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: and friends down at uh a place called at my 19 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: Place in the leventhon Wilshire and on New Year's Eve 20 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: six and the agent walked up to me and said, 21 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: would you be interested in scoring film? And television and 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: told me about Ray Couter that he priced himself out 23 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: of the business, and I said, you know sure. I mean, 24 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 1: at that point, I was envisioning holiday in at age 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: sixty five, playing for a proud Mary, and it didn't 26 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: look very promising for me. I was I was thirty six, 27 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: almost thirty seven years old. So I just said yes 28 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: to everything, and I went up for a few films 29 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: and it didn't really go well because all I had 30 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: really recordings were guitar solos. I differ other people's records 31 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: because I hadn't done anything since the seventies my own. 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: So I got a call and they said there's this 33 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: TV show and it's a pilot. It probably won't get 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 1: picked up, but they want something different, and they talked 35 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: to everybody in town. Would you go talk to him 36 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: the way I just saw a little bit slower. Is 37 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: this the same agent that came up to you at 38 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: my place? Absolutely? Same agent that came up to me 39 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: at my place. And they sent me over to this 40 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: producer and I met with him and I asked him 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: what he wanted and he told me, and I took 42 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: him at his word. I guess everybody else was telling him, No, 43 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: here's what you want. But we listened to a record 44 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: called Penguin Cafe Orchestra, which was acoustic guitar and cello 45 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,839 Speaker 1: and hear and accordion. So I went, okay, I got 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: to play acoustic guitar. And I didn't own an acoustic guitar, 47 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: but I borrowed one and spent two weeks trying to 48 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: write some cues. I talked to him out of some film. 49 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: Spent about two weeks trying to write some cues, and 50 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: then I would go back and work from my garage 51 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: studio to my bedroom with the sheets over in my 52 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: head because I knew what I was doing was awful, 53 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: and I knew nobody had ever listened to it. And 54 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: finally I wrote, I wrote these three or four ques, 55 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: and I didn't have a studio to record video. So 56 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: I called all of my friends who had little recording studios. 57 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:23,839 Speaker 1: They could lay it back into tape, and I said, 58 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: if you can help me, i'll split the show with you. 59 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: Everyone said no, except for a guy names except for 60 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: a guy named Stuart Levin, and he said, yeah, come 61 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: over on Thursday and we'll do it. So I took 62 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: this film, which was a little show called thirty something, 63 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: and I took the film over and we recorded these 64 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: cues I had written, and we put them into film 65 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: and sent it and I didn't hear a pete for 66 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: I don't know a month, and I thought they must 67 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: have just hated it. Turns out they only met with 68 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: me because they wanted to see what again named Snuffy 69 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: looked like. And when they got the video, ah, they 70 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: didn't even bother listen to it. So right the day 71 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: they were going to sign somebody else up to the 72 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: up to for a deal, they popped the audio cassette 73 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: in that I had sent along with it, and they went, oh, 74 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: that's that's interesting. Then they put in the video cassette 75 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: and they really liked what it did with the show. 76 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: And they called me and said, would you and and 77 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,119 Speaker 1: Stuart because Stewart's name was on it too, at that point, 78 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: would you all come down for a meeting. And we 79 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: came down from a meeting, Bob, and we spent the 80 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: whole time they kept asking can you do this? Do 81 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: you know how to do this? And and we kept going, well, 82 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, I didn't know if I 83 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: could do it. I had no clue and Finally ed's 84 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: Wick and Marshall Herskovius, who were their creators, left the 85 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: room and the producer I met with, Scott Wyreant, said 86 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: just tell him you can do it. So we told 87 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: him we could do it, and we got the pilot 88 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: and the next thing you know, the party got picked 89 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: up and it turned into thirty something, and that year 90 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: it won the Emmy for Best Drama on Television and 91 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: the first time I was doing it, so it was 92 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: really I look at it as this, I really think 93 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: because in sobriety when I when I quit drinking and using, 94 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: I was willing to give up my music to live 95 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: and I believe that was just the cosmos giving me 96 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: back times a hundred what I was willing to give up. 97 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: And that's kind of a metaphysical way to look at it, 98 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: but that's really the way I see it. Okay, let's 99 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: go back to your deal with Stewart. Okay, thirty something 100 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: was on the on TV on ABC for a number 101 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: of years, So what do you do about your deal 102 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: with Stewart? Well, it's funny Stewart and I got thirty 103 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: something out there. People were really responding to it. Then 104 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: I got a call from a guy named Neil Marlins 105 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: and his wife Carol Black. They said, we're doing this 106 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: little show for ABC. It's going to premiere after the 107 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: super Bowl. Would you do the music? So I think, gosh. 108 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: Stewart and I were doing great. A second show that 109 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: was a show called The Wonder Years. We did six 110 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: episodes of The Wonder Years that year, and that year 111 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: The Wonder Years won the Emmy for Best Comedy. So 112 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: the first year I was in television I had. I 113 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: was doing the Emmy winning drama and the Emmy winning comedy, 114 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: and Stewart and I also took on another one, the 115 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: Dick Van Dyke Show, which was a half hour sitcom, 116 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: and we did a library for that. And what happened 117 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: was over the summer, Stewart didn't like the way I worked. 118 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: I worked fourteen hours a day. Stewart liked to work 119 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: and I did. To me, we had to it. I 120 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: figured I had to work twice this hard to be 121 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: half as good. So Stewart and I didn't mesh well 122 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: from a work ethic point of view, not that his 123 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: was bad or worse, it was just different. And that 124 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: summer he went to the producers and said, listen, you 125 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: know I'm the only one who really knows how to score, 126 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: because he had scored a television before and he said, 127 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: I'm the only one who really knows how to score, 128 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: and uh, I think I should do the show. I'm 129 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: going to break up the partnership. I was actually in 130 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: England courting my wife to be, so I didn't know 131 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: about it this until I got back from London. And 132 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: then when I found that out that he had gone 133 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: to the shows, you know, of course I called him 134 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: and we had discussions and we decided to each take 135 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: a show besides thirty something. He took the Dick Van 136 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: Dyke Show. I took The Wonder Years because The Wonder 137 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,119 Speaker 1: Years was all acoustic guitar and he was a piano 138 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: player and thirtysomethings that producers decided they were going to 139 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: alternate episodes with us. For the next four years, we 140 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: alternated episodes, and he had a great guitar player who 141 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: learned to play just like me. Because Stewart had all 142 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 1: the masters, you know, we were doing on sixteen track, 143 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: I think then maybe if but he had all the 144 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: masters of me playing, so his guy just played the 145 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: way I did and that worked in the beginning for him. 146 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: What happened was they didn't grow because they were he 147 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: was kind of doing what I did the first year, 148 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: and I was forced to grow because I didn't have 149 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: a clue what I was doing. Didn't I didn't know 150 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: what I was doing. And I ended up getting the 151 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: relationship with the executive producers and the creators and have 152 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: done every show they've done on television since. So that 153 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: worked out well for me. Stewart did me a huge 154 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: favor by kicking me out of the nest, so to speak, 155 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: because you know, that's what it took for me to 156 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: grow and to figure out what this job is. And 157 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: I'm still trying to figure out what it is actually 158 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: about thirty some five years later. But he really did 159 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 1: me a huge favor, and I didn't feel that way 160 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: in the beginning, trust me. Okay, but let's go back 161 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: to the beginning. We know what you provided. What did 162 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: Stewart provide? Other than the studio to sync to tape? 163 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: Student Stewart had done a cop show, so he had acted, 164 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: and he worked in the studios as a studio musician 165 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: for my Post and other people, so he understood the process. 166 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: He also had a recording studio and he was, he 167 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: could record live to to film. We had all the 168 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: links and everything we needed in those days to lock 169 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: it up. So Stewart came in with an understanding of 170 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: what the job is. I had no understanding of what 171 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: the job was. I was just as guitar player who 172 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: wrote a few songs and produced a record and you know, 173 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: got got a break. So Stewart and I in the 174 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: very beginning, Stewart played piano and I played guitar, and 175 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: we did it kind of as a duet. It was 176 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: predominantly acoustic guitar because I had written the original cues 177 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: to set the style. But you know, keyboards and sometimes 178 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: sampled Chelly and different things. You know, we were doing 179 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: it that way and using accordion and um percussion, hand 180 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: percussion shakers and stuff. It was just really kind of 181 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: a real small ensemble thing. And he brought all the 182 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: knowledge of what works in film, what doesn't, how to 183 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: put it together, how to lock it up, how to 184 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: uh not really how to follow a scene. I learned 185 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: that from Ed Marshall, but he knew the mechanics of 186 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: how to do it. I had no idea. All I 187 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: could do sit and turn the film on and play 188 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: until something happened emotionally, and then I developed that We 189 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: came from two totally different schools. Okay, so now you're separate, 190 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: but you're working on thirty something where there's a you know, 191 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: a sound that has been employed. Do you then hire 192 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: a piano player? How do you get up to speed 193 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: doing it alone? Well? That was interesting. I hired a 194 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: guy named Jay Gruska. I brought him in to work 195 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: with me on my half. Jay was a wonderful piano player. 196 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: We knew each other John Williams, son in law, great musician, 197 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: and I brought him in and h and we had 198 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: a great relationship, you know, for the three or four 199 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: years we did it. He did it all the way 200 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: through with me for the next four years. It was 201 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: a little different because I was predominant in it because 202 00:11:54,960 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: it was my gig. But so Stewart had his guitar 203 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: player who had learned how to do me and I 204 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: had Jay Gruska, who was very talented in his own right. 205 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: So Jay had a record background. He had a background 206 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: that was when he came in. He was doing what 207 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: Stewart and I did. But because we were both learning 208 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: and growing in this film genre, Jay had done it 209 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: before too. We were changing and we were growing during 210 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: that process, and I believe that's the reason that I 211 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: ended up with a relationship with ed Swick and Marshall, 212 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: Herskowitz and Stewart didn't uh because I adapted, I learned, 213 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: I grew, and those guys really gave me a master 214 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: class in scoring. They made me do cues two or 215 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: three times every week. You know, I'd have to rewrite 216 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: CUsing and they really, although they beat me up, they 217 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: taught me so much about the arc of a scene 218 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: and the arc of a story, in the arc of 219 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: an episode from a writer's point of view, from us, 220 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: you know, an actual scriptwriter's point of view. And you know, 221 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: I'll always be indebted to them because they broke me 222 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: in and taught me what I've really used for the 223 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: last thirty years. Okay, obviously they taught you these things. 224 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: Tell me how you grew. Are you talking about just 225 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: with thirty something or just for just for thirty something? 226 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: You were saying you got the gig continually because you 227 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: grew doing thirty something. They were constantly morphing and getting 228 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: into deeper and deeper story. You know, originally we started 229 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: thirty something, it was all about a stroller that was 230 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: two seventy, you know, But once we got deeper into it, 231 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: we were dealing with cancer, we were dealing with divorce, 232 00:13:54,880 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: we were dealing with all these heavier approaches. And you 233 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: just can't play a shaker and accordion an acoustic guitar 234 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: bopping along too that. So I was I was faced 235 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: with much heavier, dramatic h I guess you'd call it 236 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: really uh the canvas really a very much heavier canvas 237 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: as we went through the show, growing over the four years, 238 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: and I had to learn how to adapt what I 239 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: was doing to that. I had to learn much more 240 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: about melody and and playing around the moment and not 241 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: just underlining it but commenting on something. And I had 242 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: to learn how to almost become a like an extra 243 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: character and and and I learned that from trial and error. 244 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: I also learned it from getting beat up a lot. 245 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: And I was just stretching, you know. I was an 246 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: electric guitar player who also picked up an acoustic guitar. 247 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: And I was doing hammer ons and guitar electric guitar 248 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: technique on an acoustic and it hadn't been done on 249 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: television before, so I had to adapt and you know, 250 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: so I learned a lot more about melody. I learned 251 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: about pacing. I learned about timing. I learned about color, 252 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: how important it is when you know you don't need 253 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: to say. I learned about silence, about silence is so important. 254 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: You can be playing a queue and stop and and 255 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: make that moment the most dramatic moment of the scene 256 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: because you're not playing music. And so all these techniques 257 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: I had to develop on my own, and Jay helped 258 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: to Jay had a good film since, but I was 259 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: developing mine from zero, and so I just kept expanding. 260 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: I really thought when I did this that this is 261 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: gonna last a couple of years, and they'd find me 262 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: out and I'd be out of a job and I 263 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: go back to you know, tour and with Shaka or 264 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: whatever I was doing. And what happened was I learned 265 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: enough in that first five years and doing one to 266 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: years on the other side where I was doing it 267 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: completely by myself. I just learned enough to start getting 268 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: calls for other things. And the next show I got 269 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: was a show call I'll Fly Away, And I knew 270 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: if I did one more acoustic guitar show, I would 271 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: always be the guy who does acoustic guitar scores. So 272 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: I bought a piano and I scored off fly Away 273 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: from a piano basis. Did you have any history playing 274 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: the piano? No, not past it five or six years old. 275 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: You know. I could bang out a triad and active 276 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: in the base, but no, I wasn't a piano player. 277 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: But I had to learn. I had to grow. So 278 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: I kept getting in these positions where and and challenging 279 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: myself where I had to grow, where I had to learn, 280 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: where I had to be a list, where I had 281 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: to become something that I wasn't. If you'd have told 282 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: me the first year when I was doing thirty something 283 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: score West Wing, you know, you could have put a 284 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: gun to my head. I couldn't have done it. I 285 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: just couldn't have done it. It would have been impossible. 286 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: Yet twelve years later I did. So you know it 287 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: was a huge uh growth right for me, and a 288 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: steep incline really, But I just I dropped everything. I 289 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: dropped all the rock and roll. Uh. I got married 290 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: and had two kids, and my wife said to sheer time, 291 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: just go do it. And I worked fourteen hour days 292 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: every day, seven days a week, let's go back to 293 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: something you said color. Can you define that? Wow? Color 294 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: is hard to define. Or it it can be anything from 295 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: using a volume pedal on the guitar, through delays, or 296 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: using a some strange synthpad. It's just a way to 297 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: create or support an emotion. And for me, color can 298 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: be you know, it can be anything from the palette 299 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: you're of instruments that you're using, to the way you 300 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: approach them, whether you you know, you can use a 301 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: string quartet or you can have a piano playing one 302 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: note with delays and it will create a feeling. Now, 303 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: it may not create the feeling you're looking for, but 304 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: that's what you've got to kind of work on. Uh. 305 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: You know, color was expanding my palette, expanding myself from 306 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: just an acoustic guitar or an electric guitar, getting into 307 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: other instruments, understanding other instruments. I started working more apt 308 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: in the first seven or eight years with Woodwinds. Fellow 309 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: named John Clark, who don't know if you know, but 310 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 1: played with Loggins and Messina and the most brilliant double 311 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: read player I've ever come across, as far as emotional. 312 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: Randy Cerber as a piano player, you know, I used 313 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: Randy for years and years and years because he just 314 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: approached the instrument with such grace and emotion, and those 315 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: are the things that mattered to me. It wasn't the technicality. 316 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: And I'm still that way. I can go here somebody 317 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: and if they got chops for days, I can listen. 318 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: But a couple of minutes in, I'm no longer moved. 319 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: I'm impressed, but I'm not moved. And John Clark, Randy Cerber, 320 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 1: Mike Fisher on percussion. These were the guys that I 321 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: called into my my little army, my little small ensemble 322 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: army that that I was scoring with and really utilized 323 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 1: the or really unique talents. And and for me now 324 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: I do it with George Daring. George jarring Is plays 325 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: on every episode of every television show I do, even 326 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: if there's no guitar in it, because he just brings 327 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: such beautiful music and such a musicality to it always 328 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: makes it better. Okay, you're talking about the producers of 329 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: thirty something teaching you about television, about art, etcetera. Can 330 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: tell us some of those lessons. You know, I didn't 331 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: understand story. I wasn't a big story guy. I had 332 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: never gone to movies and said I want to do that. 333 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: I kind of didn't even know it was a job 334 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: when I got this offer. So what they taught me 335 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,959 Speaker 1: was that you've got to find the arc of a scene. 336 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: What is the emotional arc of the scene, So what 337 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: is the pinnacle the turning point in the scene, and 338 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: you lead You've got to either not do anything and 339 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: comment after it, or you've got to lead up to 340 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: it and open up for it, or you've got to 341 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: do something. Whether you're dealing with action, primarily, I do 342 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: small character driven dramas. That's what I really gravitate towards. 343 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: That's what I was trained in, That's what feels natural 344 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: to me. It's the same with action. I mean, you 345 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: have to you have to have a shape, you have 346 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: to have a build, you have to have an arc. 347 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: But what once I got that, I thought, Okay, well 348 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 1: I've got this thing down. Then they said, no, you know, 349 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: you don't understand. You're peaking the episode. Two fit quickly, 350 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: there's an arc to this, not only this scene, but 351 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: this whole episode. So I had to put on my 352 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: thinking cap and go, Okay, how whom I build the 353 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: story to a peak? And how do I find the 354 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: peak of the story, the pinnacle of the story, and 355 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: build to that. And I started figuring out how to 356 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: do that, and I would judge everything. I would go 357 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: back and look at the whole episode once I'd written 358 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: queues to see how it built in the episode. About 359 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: the time I got that kind of under under my fingers, 360 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: they said, oh, but you're not building an arc of 361 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: the series. You know, we're building an arc of the series. 362 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: So all of a sudden had to put it on again, 363 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: and then I had to stretch it over five years. 364 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: And you know, they they were so patient. They never 365 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: threatened to fire me. Even though I made every mistake 366 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: in the book, they would have me ride it again. 367 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: And as much as in the young composer haste to 368 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: hear this, it served me greatly. Getting couched and getting 369 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,239 Speaker 1: schooled by guys who knew how to tell story is 370 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: absolutely the one piece that has been instrumental in all 371 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: my work. Okay, let's talk a little bit about process. 372 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: So just in general, on a series, what is the 373 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: schedule for you? The scheduling of television used to be 374 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks from the time they would lock 375 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: the film to the time they would dub the film. 376 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: In other words, from the time they quit editing, you 377 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: got the picture that was going to stay that way 378 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,479 Speaker 1: until it got to the dub stage to be added 379 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: with effects and dialogue picture. What slowly has happened as 380 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: the advent of technology came across Within twelve fifteen years, 381 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: I was getting twenty four hours to make that same 382 00:23:54,200 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: turnaround a show like West Wing h By or three. 383 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: I was sometimes getting one day from the time I 384 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: saw the film to send them the music. So originally 385 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: you would take time. You would you would meet with 386 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: the producers and you would watch the episode and decide 387 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: where they wanted music and talking about the nature of 388 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: the music, and then you go off for a week 389 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: and write it, and then you'd hand it to orchestrators 390 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: and copyists and you'd go into the studio. That's the 391 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: way it was before I came on the scene. When 392 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: right when I came on the scene, everything was getting 393 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: smaller since we're happening, computers were happening. So I dialed 394 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: it down to I write it as I go, I 395 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: perform it as I'm as I'm playing it. It never 396 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: went to paper, so I missed that whole other step 397 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: of getting booking a session and getting twenty five players 398 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: and having it copied and orchestrated. So I skipped that 399 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: a whole step so I can do it fast stir, 400 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: which in some ways was great, but it also gave 401 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: them license to give me less and less time. And 402 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: over the years with the AD Uh, you know, we 403 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: ended up with avid instead of cutting film, and we 404 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: ended up with all these technological things. It now is 405 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: to the point where you may never not you may 406 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: never get locked film. It may never They may still 407 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: be adding it on the dub stage and changing it 408 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: because you can do it with the push of a button. 409 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: So it makes scheduling. Yeah, you've got to be quick 410 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: on your feet. And because I was always doing small ensemble, 411 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 1: that was easier for me. When I moved into West 412 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: Wing or something like that, where I had a fifty 413 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: sixty players, it got a little trickier. But that didn't 414 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: last long because they couldn't get me the own fast 415 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: enough for me to do those kind of sessions. So 416 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: what's that it's compressed over time. I would think now 417 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 1: they'll probably give you five days unless they have a 418 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: real big problem. Uh five maybe six days normal, But 419 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: they still might ask you to turn half that music 420 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: around and in a day and a half. So it 421 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: depends upon the production, it really does. It depends upon 422 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: the people and how organized they are and how clear 423 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: their vision of the story they're telling it. Okay, you 424 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: get let's just assume it's locked. You get locked. You 425 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: have a brief period of time. Tell me the process 426 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: of coming up with the score itself. My process is 427 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: pretty much stayed the same, Bob. It's what I did 428 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: in the beginning when I was first writing those first 429 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: few fews for thirty something, was sitting in front of 430 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: the film, running the scene and just playing until something 431 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: started happening emotionally, and then I would go back and 432 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: play with the idea, develop it a little bit, and 433 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: put them film up and then try that against it. 434 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: And it was really hit or miss once I started. 435 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: Once I got off the acoustic guitar and got on 436 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: the piano, even though I was playing acoustic guitar samples, 437 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: I was able to lock everything up with MIDDI and 438 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: which allowed me to sit down and just play freely 439 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: to picture, and then the stunting started to develop it. 440 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: I still had the same process. I'd stop and developed 441 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 1: the piece a little bit more and then see how 442 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: it fit with the scene. But once we had the computers, 443 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: you could move a piece of music two seconds or 444 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: make it faster here or there, so you could make 445 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: it breathe with the scene, which is I think one 446 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: of the things that I did well. I didn't get 447 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: in the way a lot because I was so I 448 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: was taught so much to let the story unfold rather 449 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: than tell people the story before it happens. So that 450 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: process still is the same for me. I now I'll 451 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: choose a separate palette for each show. In other words, 452 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: I'll choose a set of instruments that hopefully I haven't 453 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: used before. Because I've done seventies maybe the eight series. 454 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: You know, I've used up a lot of my palette, 455 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: and I have to find something new that's fresh, that 456 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,479 Speaker 1: gives me a fresh take and also doesn't sound like 457 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: ten other things I've done. So whatever I start with, 458 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: whatever that decided palette is, then I move forward starting 459 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: to write with that. And you know, once again, it's 460 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: still sitting down and playing to picture and finding something 461 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: that touches me. If it's if it'll touch me, it 462 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: will probably touch you, and and directors, Bob, they just 463 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: want to like their film better. You know, they just 464 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: want to love their film more. They want to feel 465 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: the places where they felt they missed, and they want 466 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: to heighten the places where they tear up. And you know, 467 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg always says, uh, Stevens that, uh, he said, 468 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: I can I can bring a tear to someone's eye. 469 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: John makes the tear fall talking about John Williams, And 470 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: you know, I think that's a beautiful cinema. Okay, So 471 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: do you decide where the music goes? Or when you 472 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: get the locked picture, do they say we want music 473 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: here there? Boy, we are getting technical. Generally, we do 474 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: what's called a spotting session, which is we sit down 475 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: with the producers and view the whole film, watch it 476 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: as an episode, stopping and starting and saying I think 477 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: music should start here, and then we'll go back and 478 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: look and scene and we'll go, well, maybe we should 479 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: go in a little sooner, maybe a little later. We 480 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: decide in that spotting session basically where the music goes 481 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: and what is trying to accomplish. Are we trying to 482 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: create tension? Are we trying to create drama or are 483 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: we trying to have a release, we are we gonna 484 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: cry here or and so we would decide the basics 485 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: of it. But once I got it in my lap, 486 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: you know, it was up to me to decide. Well, 487 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: they wanted music to come in here, But I think 488 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: what they really mean is melody should start there, and 489 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: I should glide into it invisibly so that when I 490 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: hit that first note of melody, it creates something. And 491 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: and a lot of time that's what happens. They want 492 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: an emotion at a certain point, so they say music 493 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: should start year And unless they're really astute at doing 494 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: it and and really good at it, then a lot 495 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: of times that's not the moment you're looking for. You're 496 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: looking for a moment to glide in before you're looking 497 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: for maybe something after it to start creating. It's and 498 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: it's it's totally subjective. A hundred guys can write a 499 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: hundred good cues for a scene and they'll all be good. Uh. Also, 500 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: a hundred guys can write a bad queue and they'll 501 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: still be bad. So okay, let's talk a little bit 502 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: about foreshadowing. I mean, people were just watching films think 503 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: that it's all hard cuts, But a lot of times 504 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: dialogue music starts before the next scene. Can you tell 505 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: me about them? You know, sometimes you want to have 506 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: music in a scene, but to hit it musically on 507 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: the cut isn't always right. Sometimes you want to get 508 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: gracefully up in into the music, so it's called a relapse. 509 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: Uh A lot of times with small ensemble. I do 510 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: that with a pad or electric guitar, volume, pedal, swell 511 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: or something to take me into the cut. If I 512 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: wanted to go from a bedroom to a busy city, 513 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: then I could swell into it and get busy right 514 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: on the cut. On the other hand, if you're going 515 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: from a bedroom to the baby's room, you want to 516 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: ease across that cut and and be invisible. You know, 517 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: our job is to suspend disbelief, you know, we want 518 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: people to feel the story. If you're listening to the 519 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: mute to the music, I probably haven't done my job. Well. 520 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: Listen to the music the second time. But my job 521 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: is to really propel that story and move it in 522 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: the best way possible. And and and Stravinsky wrote amazing music, 523 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: but it's not going to fit in a going from 524 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: two lovers in the bedroom to a baby's baby monitor 525 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: in the baby Room. It's just not gonna work. You know, 526 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: it's brilliant music, but it's not right for the moment. 527 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: So you know, you you have different everybody's got a 528 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: bag of tricks that they use a lot. I have 529 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: my style. I like the pre lap a cut and 530 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: maybe start some some movement on a cut, depending on 531 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,479 Speaker 1: what I'm going into, or start a theme on a cut, 532 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: or sometimes you don't want to touch the cut at all. 533 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: Sometimes you want to stay as far away from the 534 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: actual edit point as possible so it doesn't feel like 535 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: we're it's two pointed, than trying to drag you into 536 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: the next scene. I I learned from Ed Marshall that 537 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: I was way better off commenting on a scene, commenting 538 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: on something that was just said, rather than saying it 539 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: at the same time. You know that they used to 540 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: call that underscoring. AH for me, Ed Marshall taught me 541 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: how to comment on a storyline or a scene, and 542 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: it made me more of a player, like like an actor. 543 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: It made music more I don't know, but you know, 544 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: one of the characters that's kind of okay. So let's 545 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: go to the process, and you know, I know there's 546 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: a learning curve but let's talk today when everything is 547 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 1: relatively compressed, so you essentially write the music in twenty 548 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: four hours, what's the process from composing to laying it 549 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: down to delivering it. I'll give you an example of 550 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: the frightening one when you when you have to turn 551 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: it around in twelve hours, you have no choice but 552 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: to perform it as you're writing it because you don't 553 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: have time to go back. So you've just got to 554 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: work your way through the show performing it at the 555 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: same time that you're writing it. So although I might 556 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: have somebody come in and clean up the MIDI when 557 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: I was doing West Wing, that's pretty much what I 558 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,439 Speaker 1: was doing. I was writing it except for the first 559 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 1: six episodes that were went to orchestra and the main 560 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: title theme. I played every instrument on there. I had 561 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: one guitar session on one queue in the whole seven 562 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: years we ran. And it was all about performing strings 563 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: and brass and percussion and all that stuff on on 564 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: the spot in the moment, so that it that's the 565 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: way it was going to go to the dub stage. 566 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: So I really I learned to do that. I learned 567 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: that there's never a demo, you know, the demo is 568 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 1: the master recording. It's just like in doing records, you know, 569 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: you try to chase that demo once you've created the idea. 570 00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: And I found for me writing the performance as the 571 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: cue and doing them at the same time was the 572 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: most fruitful for me. So that's the way I learned 573 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: to do it. Of course, if I'm doing an accoust 574 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: the guitar thing, and I'm writing at home, I can 575 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: do one or two things. I can play an acoustic 576 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: guitar and a mike here in my writing room, which 577 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: is matched at my studio. I mean, whatever I play 578 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:30,959 Speaker 1: here into into my sequencer comes up exactly the same 579 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: down there. They're totally matched. We have three match studios. 580 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 1: Patrick Rose has one too, and we can move things 581 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: around like that. But once I perform it here, if 582 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: I have George darn coming, then we'll do it. Have 583 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: somebody do a takedown as I'm writing queues and give 584 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: me a three line sketch, or if there's actual guitar, 585 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: they'll write out the guitar part. So that by the 586 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: time I'm done writing and I go to sleep and 587 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: I get up and go to the next session, all 588 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: the paperwork is prepared and George We've got a three 589 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: or four hour date, maybe a five hour date with 590 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: George where he stite reading everything and sometimes you stite 591 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: reading no guitar, just looking at it a three line sketch, 592 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, strings, pads and percussion. But he gets the 593 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: idea of it. And and that's a little bastardization of 594 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,839 Speaker 1: the process of doing it yourself. But I love having 595 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: George on everything, so I always go to you. You know. 596 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes now on Seal team we have cellist, but cellist 597 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: come in. Sometimes we go to a dub stage, we 598 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: go to an actual film stage. Although Patrick does that, 599 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: I don't do that. Uh So the process can be 600 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 1: varying degrees of of right as you go and perform 601 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: as you go. But for me, that's been my process 602 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: and that's what I stay with. Okay, So there's one 603 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: a civic studio that is not in your house where 604 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 1: you essentially do most of the work. Yes, I have 605 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: a writing studio in my home where I write. Now. 606 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: A funny story, when when I built the studio, we 607 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 1: lived in the front house in front of the studio 608 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,800 Speaker 1: down in Woodland Hills. When I moved up to this house, 609 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,879 Speaker 1: I was still working and writing down there. One day, 610 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: my son came home with a picture and I said, well, 611 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: what's this. He said, well, this is our family picture. 612 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,439 Speaker 1: He said, that's mommy, that's me, and that's Connor. I said, 613 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: where's daddy. He said, oh, Daddy's at the studio. So 614 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: I built a riding room at my house because I 615 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,439 Speaker 1: didn't want to be that daddy. And uh. And I've 616 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: worked doing the core writing at home ever since. I 617 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: go down to the studio if I'm recording live instruments 618 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: that I'm doing string ensembles or woodwinds or George or whatever. 619 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 1: But the whole studio is set up for producing television scores. 620 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: We're everything's plugged in all the time. You know, if 621 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,280 Speaker 1: we need to add drums. George is a great drummer. 622 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: By the way, George plays everything. He plays piano, he 623 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: plays everything. So if we need some color, George will 624 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: play whatever's sitting next to him and he's happy to 625 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: play it. So I keep that studio so this all 626 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: the music for these shows is made essentially in a 627 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: home studio at your old home. Yes, who does the engineering. 628 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 1: George Landrus has been working with me for ten twelve 629 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,439 Speaker 1: years now. Before that, it was a fellow named Abby 630 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 1: Kipper who worked for me for fifteen years before that. 631 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: I be came on really early on h I guess 632 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: I was maybe been scoring four or five years and 633 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: Obve came in and started working for me, and we 634 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: set the studio episode fit his style. Then when George 635 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: started working with us, we set the studio episode. It 636 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: works in his style. The actual console, maybe there's still 637 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: a writing station down there. If I wanted to, I 638 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,839 Speaker 1: could go down there and write just easily. It's home, 639 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: but there's so much easier to walk out in your 640 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: road and turn the computer on that it is to 641 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: get you go all the way down the hill. So okay, 642 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: so if you're doing a show now, you tend to 643 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: be writing it at home and then recording it at 644 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: the other studio Woodland Hills. That's right. What we do 645 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: is we as we do the core work in our 646 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: home studios. It's either Patrick or I on Seal Team. 647 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: It's Patrick and me me less and less. And what 648 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: we do is we write our core music and that 649 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 1: is the performance of the core music. Then we we 650 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: uploaded at the studio and add Sweeten Nerd to that. 651 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: We had you know, cello or George or percussion or 652 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: whatever we add to that in it. The technology is 653 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,240 Speaker 1: so good now that you can actually sit at home 654 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,240 Speaker 1: and record George Deering at his studio in real time 655 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: and give notes in real time and then handed off 656 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 1: to the mixer and you can listen to him mixing 657 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: it in real time at home. I mean, it's the 658 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 1: technology has moved that far now so that you can 659 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: actually record people anywhere in real time. You don't know 660 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: if you deal with the lag. We used to go 661 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: to Bratislava and stuff to do string sessions anywhere. Was 662 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: there always two in the morning and there was a 663 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,919 Speaker 1: five second lag? And huh? But it's it's the technology 664 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: is just zoomed forward. So now are you personally also 665 00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: a good engineer and can you read and write music? Know, 666 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: I'm not a good engineer. I trust people to do 667 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: that for me. You know, from playing years of rock 668 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,360 Speaker 1: and roll, my hearing is not the greatest. So me 669 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: on a mixing console you're liable to get an awful 670 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: lot of triangle and I strengths. But as far as 671 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: being an engineer, I don't do that at all. And 672 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: your other question was writing and reading music. I never 673 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: learned to read music. I still don't know how to 674 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: read music. I went to u c l A after 675 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 1: the first year of thirty something, and I said, and 676 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: I took an orchestration class, and I said, can I 677 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: get somebody else to write my parts? And and he 678 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: looked at me like I was crazy. And the next 679 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: couple of classes I brought somebody else's transcription of what 680 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: I wrote in and he pulled me aside, he said, listen. 681 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: But then he knew what I was doing. He said, 682 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,320 Speaker 1: you you have what we all want. You have a job. 683 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,240 Speaker 1: When you run out of jobs, come back to school. 684 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 1: And I ended up hiring that teacher to orchestrate from 685 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: me three years later. So I've never run out of job, 686 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,720 Speaker 1: so I've I've never had to go, and I never learned. 687 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 1: And I can't. I can't follow a score that I've written. 688 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,919 Speaker 1: I can see basically where the movement is and keep 689 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: up with it if I count bars. But I'm way 690 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,720 Speaker 1: better at just closing my eyes and watching the film 691 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: and hearing what's coming at me and judging it or 692 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 1: changing it based on that. I'm not a paper guy. 693 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: I always looked at a piece of paper and said, 694 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,439 Speaker 1: you know, I can play paper like a chord chart, 695 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: or I can play music. Which one do you want? Okay, 696 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 1: let's go back. You're talking about with Marshall and Ed 697 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: making you redo the cues. Is that still a thing 698 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: that you've experienced, and what is it like when you 699 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: do experience? Absolutely? I think younger guys go through it 700 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: more than I do, because number one, I've listened to 701 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: them enough to kind of know what they really mean. 702 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: They may say one cloud with two doves, but what 703 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: they're really talking about is a sweet PIANOICU. I've heard 704 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: it enough and chased enough of those clouds and doves 705 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: to know what they're talking about emotionally anyway. But yes, 706 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: all the time they will. They do what's called a 707 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: preview now, where they're so used to you being able 708 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: to ride at home, mock it up and before you 709 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 1: adding the instruments to it, send it to them and 710 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,480 Speaker 1: they look at it locked to film and they decide, well, 711 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: you know it's good up to here, but I need 712 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: this here and that there, and you've got to go 713 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: in and take it apart and restructure it. Or they'll say, 714 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,439 Speaker 1: you know, this is perfect, which is good to hear, 715 00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 1: or they'll say what were you thinking? And then you 716 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 1: start from scratch and have to write it again. I've 717 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: written queues for some shows six seven times and and 718 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,399 Speaker 1: a lot of times go back to the original cue 719 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,399 Speaker 1: that I wrote. Okay, when the show is done, When 720 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,440 Speaker 1: your work is done, do you end up watching the 721 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,440 Speaker 1: finished product and be do you since so much as 722 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,359 Speaker 1: it's done its speed? Do you watch and wins say 723 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: I should have done this or I could have done 724 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 1: this better? Boy? Do I watch it when it's done? 725 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: It sounds the best when it leaves my studio because 726 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: music is loud and proud, and I'm not fighting effects 727 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,799 Speaker 1: and I'm not fighting the helicopter and I'm not doing 728 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 1: all that. I don't watch my work for two reasons. Ah. 729 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 1: The main reason is it makes me uncomfortable if it's 730 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: too soft or if it's too loud, unless it's right 731 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,840 Speaker 1: in that middle space and it's really working well. The 732 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,920 Speaker 1: other thing is why did I do that? Right? You 733 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,319 Speaker 1: know once you watch it, and what I had to 734 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: do in the beginning, probably the first ten years, was 735 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 1: watched them on television as they aired. Because they're compressed, 736 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 1: they don't sound the same as when they leave the 737 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,840 Speaker 1: dub stage, and I always felt like going down to 738 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,760 Speaker 1: that to the mix put one of two things into play. 739 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 1: Either they were nervous because you were there, so they 740 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 1: turned music up too loud, or they were piste off 741 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: because you're there and they turned the music down. So 742 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: I found it was best for me not to go 743 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,840 Speaker 1: and put myself in that situation unless it's just a playback, 744 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,239 Speaker 1: and if it's something important regular episodic. We were doing 745 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 1: twenty two episodes at that time. You didn't have time 746 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: to go down for a playback. You were busy right 747 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: in the next episode. And from the time I started 748 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: up until a year ago, I've been doing multiple series 749 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 1: every year. So I've had at least two series on 750 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 1: every year since. So I don't have that kind of time, 751 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,319 Speaker 1: you know. Uh, But the other you know, I don't like. 752 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,600 Speaker 1: I learned from watching it on the air. I learned 753 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: what works and what doesn't work. I don't like watching it. 754 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I've never watched The West Wing and people 755 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,400 Speaker 1: say they just love it, and uh, I'll watch it 756 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 1: someday when I don't. Probably when I stopped doing it. 757 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:35,440 Speaker 1: I just I've never been comfortable listening to my work. 758 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 1: I never wasn't the guy who carried a cassette around 759 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,840 Speaker 1: in my pocket. Go listen to my new song either. 760 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: So I was just not that guy. Okay, So how 761 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: did you meet Aaron Sorkin? And you started with him 762 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,000 Speaker 1: in the beginning of television and you grew together. So 763 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:57,520 Speaker 1: can you tell us that Aaron. It's interesting story. Aaron 764 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: watch thirty something and really loved thirty something. So when 765 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 1: Aaron put his first television show on, uh, he called 766 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,759 Speaker 1: my agents and said it would Snuffy be interested in 767 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:16,280 Speaker 1: doing this show? And I was up in Mammoth skiing 768 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,920 Speaker 1: with my kids, so I wasn't you know, Dad's at 769 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: the studio. And I got a call from my agents 770 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: and they said, listen, this guy, Aaron Sorkin done some movies, 771 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,440 Speaker 1: really good writer. Wants you to look at this script 772 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: and would you be interested in I said sure, send 773 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,879 Speaker 1: it up. So they messengered it up or fed exit 774 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,440 Speaker 1: up or something, and I got the script and and 775 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,720 Speaker 1: I was used to looking at scripts and just flip 776 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,880 Speaker 1: into the back page to see how long it was, 777 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,719 Speaker 1: because I will tell you it's an hour and a 778 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 1: half hour. And I flipped to the back of the 779 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 1: page and it was sixty pages. So I got a 780 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,759 Speaker 1: less an hour drama. So I read it. It was wonderful. 781 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: It was so beautifully written and such a great piece. 782 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: I said, absolutely, I'd love to do this. Only two 783 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,400 Speaker 1: weeks later to find out Aaron writes sixty pages for 784 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:12,600 Speaker 1: a half hour show most people. And so I learned 785 00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: it was a half hour television show and it's called 786 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,279 Speaker 1: Sports Night. And we did one year of Sports Night 787 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: and it was kind of a funny show because it 788 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:24,040 Speaker 1: was half hour, but Aaron really nixed the laugh track 789 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: and so, you know, some people got into it, but 790 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't really big. Aaron had in his back pocket 791 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,960 Speaker 1: at that time West Wing. He had the idea of 792 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,280 Speaker 1: show about the West Wing that was really about the people, 793 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,880 Speaker 1: not the president, and he had shopped it and it 794 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,960 Speaker 1: hadn't been picked up. And so once he was on 795 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,520 Speaker 1: the air, Tommy Slammi was doing the directing to which 796 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 1: was phenomenal. Tommy, you know, created this whole thing of 797 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,399 Speaker 1: walking through the giant sets with moving cameras and did 798 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,840 Speaker 1: that on Sports Night, and so there was a lot 799 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 1: of credibility for the quality with Sports Night. When Aaron 800 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:12,000 Speaker 1: came back to John Wells with with the West Wing, 801 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,120 Speaker 1: and at that time. You know, I've been doing this 802 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 1: electric guitar show all you know, all of my roots, 803 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:25,360 Speaker 1: you know, playing bluesy stuff and slide and all electric 804 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,920 Speaker 1: guitar and and Aaron came to me said, listen, I 805 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,879 Speaker 1: have the script. You know, it's about the West Wing. 806 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,400 Speaker 1: Would you be interested in doing it? And he sent 807 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: me the script and I read it and there was 808 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 1: just incredible. Aaron had a way of making the first 809 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,840 Speaker 1: five minutes riveting of any show you got of his. 810 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,239 Speaker 1: Every pilot I did with Aaron was that way that 811 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: you couldn't walk away from it. It's like Social Network 812 00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:01,440 Speaker 1: is a great example of of that kind of writing, 813 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:05,719 Speaker 1: where it's just it just goes. And so I read 814 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,160 Speaker 1: this and I said, yeah, I'd love to do it. 815 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,719 Speaker 1: What are you thinking? He said, well, I'm thinking American 816 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 1: acoustic guitar. I said, great, I don't how to do that. 817 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 1: About two months later, after they shot the pilot, they're 818 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: starting to edit it and they started putting John Williams 819 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,640 Speaker 1: up against it and it worked really well. So Aaron 820 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,439 Speaker 1: came to me and said, listen, I know we talked 821 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,760 Speaker 1: about acoustic guitar, but we've been putting this big orchestral 822 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,120 Speaker 1: stuff up against it. Would you be able to do that? 823 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,439 Speaker 1: And the only answer you can give if you're about 824 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:46,000 Speaker 1: to be out of work is yes. And I went 825 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,200 Speaker 1: to a friend of mine, James Horner, and talked to 826 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 1: him about what I wanted to accomplish, and he pointed 827 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,840 Speaker 1: me to some areas and we discussed how I would 828 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,759 Speaker 1: do it and what the process was, because I had 829 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,000 Speaker 1: never worked with a big orchestra at that point. I've 830 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:06,920 Speaker 1: worked with some string sections, just doing strings on some 831 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,520 Speaker 1: guitar music, but the first time I've ever worked with 832 00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 1: big full horns and everything, and so James helped me 833 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:19,960 Speaker 1: a lot. And then I studied Aaron Copeland and I 834 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,440 Speaker 1: boiled it down to well, really, he's just playing a 835 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,400 Speaker 1: simple melody. It's just but the orchestration's lovely. So I 836 00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:34,000 Speaker 1: got a great orchestrator, Brad Dector and who was doing 837 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:38,279 Speaker 1: all James Newton Howard stuff and and I I brought 838 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,759 Speaker 1: him in and he brought in a couple of other 839 00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,560 Speaker 1: guys because you had to put out so much music, 840 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,120 Speaker 1: so it took two or three orchestrators just to get 841 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:51,120 Speaker 1: it orchestrated and prep for the orchestra. And the funny 842 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,920 Speaker 1: thing about it is. I was. I was writing the 843 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:59,240 Speaker 1: whole first full first episode, part of the second episode, 844 00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,319 Speaker 1: and a couple of is for the third episode because 845 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,440 Speaker 1: they didn't have the money to do fifty six pieces 846 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:09,040 Speaker 1: every week, so I was writing two or three episodes 847 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 1: and doing a session. Ah. But they were going to 848 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:17,520 Speaker 1: Randy Newman and all the Carthy, Stills and Nash to 849 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:22,279 Speaker 1: do the main title. Everybody was you know, everybody wanted 850 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,480 Speaker 1: to do Aaron Sorkin's new main titles. Uh. And they 851 00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,719 Speaker 1: were telling me about it. I was going, yeah, Randy Newman, now, 852 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:34,400 Speaker 1: how would you complain about that? And I was. I 853 00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,759 Speaker 1: was working on the third episode and Tommy Slimy came 854 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,200 Speaker 1: over to my writing room, which is not this one 855 00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:45,759 Speaker 1: but the one downstairs, and I played in the queues 856 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,439 Speaker 1: and I played in the end queue and he said, 857 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 1: that's it. I said, that's what he said, that's the 858 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,120 Speaker 1: main title. It took me fifteen minutes to write that queue. 859 00:53:54,760 --> 00:54:00,920 Speaker 1: But that que turned into uh to some music that 860 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,160 Speaker 1: I want an Emmy for the theme the third theme 861 00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,839 Speaker 1: to West Wing, and Tommy recognized it more than I did. 862 00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:09,880 Speaker 1: I was just writing as fast as I could and 863 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:15,960 Speaker 1: trying to get something together. But Tommy recognized the emotional 864 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,120 Speaker 1: content and with his visual content of what he was 865 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,200 Speaker 1: going to do because he was already shooting the credits. 866 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,640 Speaker 1: There are the opening credits, and I give Tommy a 867 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,839 Speaker 1: lot of credit for that. Certainly did me a good 868 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: one there. So you're a rock and roller at hard 869 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,720 Speaker 1: So where did you grow up? I have Bonouisiana, raised 870 00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:40,400 Speaker 1: in Texas, went to school in Texas. You know. I 871 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,800 Speaker 1: had my parents split up a lot, so I would 872 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,040 Speaker 1: follow one to the little rock and then found the 873 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,760 Speaker 1: other one back to Texas and then they get together 874 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,520 Speaker 1: and then we'd all be together in Houston. So I 875 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,920 Speaker 1: grew up kind of. I went to twelve different schools 876 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,400 Speaker 1: getting through high school. So I was always trying to 877 00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,600 Speaker 1: fit which which helped me as a composer, by the way, 878 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,680 Speaker 1: because I also knew how to you know, kind of 879 00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:11,120 Speaker 1: fit into a piece. And I started my rock and 880 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:15,319 Speaker 1: roll career plan at a strip joint I had. I 881 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 1: was going to football before that. How it was there 882 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,440 Speaker 1: music in the home? How did you end up even playing? 883 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,520 Speaker 1: Oh Wow, You're gonna go way back? You know? When 884 00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,320 Speaker 1: I was about five, they gave my parents gave me 885 00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,880 Speaker 1: a Hawaiian steel guitar. Gave me lessons on that. But 886 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,640 Speaker 1: I lived in tech in East Texas, so you know, 887 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: all was there was country. So I was basically playing 888 00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,120 Speaker 1: learning how to play country music on a Hawaiian lap still. 889 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,480 Speaker 1: And then I learned a little piano and play. We 890 00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,400 Speaker 1: had a Hammond cord organ at home. I kind of 891 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,759 Speaker 1: learned how to play that. In fifth grade, I went 892 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,879 Speaker 1: out for band. This was exciting because the guitar didn't stick. 893 00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,440 Speaker 1: I was doing tap dancing too, so you know, they 894 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,040 Speaker 1: had me involved in everything. Were you the only kid? No. 895 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:06,520 Speaker 1: I had one brother two years older, same birthday. We 896 00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,600 Speaker 1: were born two years exactly apart, and I'll get to 897 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,080 Speaker 1: him because he was the gifted one of the family. 898 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:18,640 Speaker 1: He's gone now, but he was the really gifted musician 899 00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:20,600 Speaker 1: in the family as far as I look at it. 900 00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,840 Speaker 1: So I got a traumbone. So I started playing traumbone 901 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,400 Speaker 1: in the fifth grade. In the sixth grade, and then 902 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:30,560 Speaker 1: I wasn't good enough on trum bone, so they moved 903 00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,799 Speaker 1: me to baritone. And by the time I got through 904 00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,560 Speaker 1: eighth grade, I was I was just done with band. 905 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,080 Speaker 1: I just I couldn't do it anymore. So in the 906 00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:43,560 Speaker 1: ninth grade, we moved down to Texas and for Christmas 907 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:48,040 Speaker 1: that year, my grandfather got me and my brother both 908 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:54,400 Speaker 1: electric guitars little Fender music Men or whatever. They were 909 00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,439 Speaker 1: a single pick up little Fender, and we started playing 910 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,200 Speaker 1: electric guitar in The first song played was Misty and 911 00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,480 Speaker 1: the second song I played was long, Tall Texan. And 912 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,080 Speaker 1: that's about those wider ranges I was ever going to get. 913 00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,600 Speaker 1: Pretty soon, my brother took off two strings off his 914 00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: and started playing based on his, so he ended up 915 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,720 Speaker 1: getting a base. We put a band together, of course, 916 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,560 Speaker 1: in the night. It was summer of between nine and 917 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,760 Speaker 1: grade for me. We put a band together called the Showman. 918 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,120 Speaker 1: And you know, we had one guy in the band 919 00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,040 Speaker 1: because he had a band, so he played tambourine. We 920 00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,200 Speaker 1: had another guy in the band because he had a 921 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,560 Speaker 1: twelve string and we wanted to play I wanted to 922 00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:40,120 Speaker 1: play the twelve strings, so we got him in the 923 00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 1: band too, So you know, there was about three of 924 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 1: us core musicians. We also had a guy named Turkey 925 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 1: who would bring a little Hammond cord organ around to 926 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:52,880 Speaker 1: every gig. I don't know why his father did that, 927 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,280 Speaker 1: but they did it. And we played, you know, school 928 00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,920 Speaker 1: dances in the local tiki club Quantza Time. Okay, you're 929 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,480 Speaker 1: you're in Texas in the northeast, Northeast. You know, it's 930 00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:06,680 Speaker 1: tough forty radio first Folk, then Four Seasons, Beach Boys, 931 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,040 Speaker 1: then the Beatles in British invasion. Texas is its own country. 932 00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,439 Speaker 1: So how important were the Beatles to you and where 933 00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,560 Speaker 1: you grew up and what kind of music were you playing? 934 00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,240 Speaker 1: Were you influenced by local music and country music? You know, 935 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,360 Speaker 1: I loved the Beatles. I bought all the Beatles records. 936 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:30,440 Speaker 1: I loved what they did. But we didn't play an 937 00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,080 Speaker 1: the Beatles. I never worked up a Beatles song. We 938 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,200 Speaker 1: were kind of we weren't that good, you know. We 939 00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:43,280 Speaker 1: we could play uh animal songs, we could play some 940 00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:48,440 Speaker 1: Stone stuff, we could play some basic twelve bar stuff 941 00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,760 Speaker 1: and you know, Kinks. Maybe it's about as daring as 942 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:56,360 Speaker 1: we got. So we didn't. We weren't recover band because 943 00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:58,840 Speaker 1: we weren't that good. We weren't good enough to reproduce 944 00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:01,240 Speaker 1: those records. So we just kind of play, but we 945 00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:02,960 Speaker 1: could play. I was listening to a lot of chet 946 00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,960 Speaker 1: Atkins in and we were listening to that songs like 947 00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,920 Speaker 1: Tellstar instrumental records and so we just kind of did 948 00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,400 Speaker 1: a hybrid. We just got together and played really and 949 00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,360 Speaker 1: that's kind of all I've ever done, as it, and 950 00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:21,480 Speaker 1: it turns out I've never done. I did one casual 951 00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,400 Speaker 1: gig in my life where I played at a wedding 952 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,040 Speaker 1: and they fired me the next day and never called 953 00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:29,280 Speaker 1: me back because I didn't know all those songs. I 954 00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:33,880 Speaker 1: never learned anyway. We had a cover band then then 955 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,600 Speaker 1: we decided to release the record. My grandfather was pretty 956 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:41,040 Speaker 1: impressed and he built he opened a record label, and 957 00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:45,280 Speaker 1: we cut a single and it was on one side, 958 00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,120 Speaker 1: baby let Me Take You Home by the Animals that 959 00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:53,240 Speaker 1: my brother sang, and the flip side was Bald Headed 960 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,840 Speaker 1: Woman by the Kinks, and Doug and I traded off 961 00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:01,920 Speaker 1: vocals on that. Doug, my brother, and I still have 962 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,600 Speaker 1: that record. And we changed the name of the band 963 01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:08,400 Speaker 1: because the Showman didn't sound cool enough. We called it 964 01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:14,160 Speaker 1: ps Y one to three for Psychedelic because the elevators 965 01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,800 Speaker 1: and all of that was just starting to happen in Texas. 966 01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,800 Speaker 1: Wow funding to go back to that, and and we 967 01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,120 Speaker 1: kept that band together for about a year and a 968 01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,160 Speaker 1: half and then it disbanded because my brother got sent 969 01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,760 Speaker 1: to military school and he got my my he got 970 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:36,960 Speaker 1: my girlfriend pregnant, so you know that was that was fun. Uh, 971 01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:41,120 Speaker 1: and he married her, so we the band kind of 972 01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,280 Speaker 1: broke up and I didn't. I kept playing in the 973 01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,440 Speaker 1: in my bedroom, but I didn't really play in any bands. 974 01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,720 Speaker 1: In my senior year, I went to four different schools 975 01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:54,960 Speaker 1: because I got kicked out of one. I went a 976 01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:59,800 Speaker 1: wall from a military school. I got barely through the 977 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:01,880 Speaker 1: asked one, but I didn't have all the credits I needed, 978 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:03,360 Speaker 1: so I had to go to summer school. So that 979 01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,400 Speaker 1: was my final year. And that year was spent for 980 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:12,360 Speaker 1: me going out to the black clubs and seeing Sam 981 01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:16,680 Speaker 1: and Dave and the Impressions and uh, you know those 982 01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:21,000 Speaker 1: acts of that time in nineteen sixties sixty seven and 983 01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,680 Speaker 1: drinking beer and hanging out with the guys. It was 984 01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:26,880 Speaker 1: like junior frat guys. So I didn't play it all 985 01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:31,840 Speaker 1: that year. And then when I graduated and I started 986 01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:35,240 Speaker 1: going to college, I was friends with this guy who 987 01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:39,080 Speaker 1: had FM underground radio show on this little tiny FM 988 01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:42,360 Speaker 1: show FM station called k r b E, which is 989 01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:46,840 Speaker 1: huge now in Houston, and I got a job. I 990 01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:51,400 Speaker 1: got my second I can't remember what degree it was 991 01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:56,240 Speaker 1: but basically an apprentice license to be a DJ. So 992 01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,920 Speaker 1: I was going to college, going to on a double 993 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:03,520 Speaker 1: major premat premit Math. I was working at this little 994 01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:08,240 Speaker 1: underground radio show, doing all different sometimes the morning shows, 995 01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:11,280 Speaker 1: sometimes the late night shows, whatever they could give me. 996 01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,360 Speaker 1: And I was playing in a strip club called the Seller, 997 01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:20,840 Speaker 1: where they sold fake boost to the clients, trying to 998 01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:26,320 Speaker 1: tell like was uh bourbon flavoring in coke? And the 999 01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,360 Speaker 1: girls all wore broad panties and they would dance and 1000 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,080 Speaker 1: they would strip for tips, and when they had stripped, 1001 01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:34,320 Speaker 1: they locked the front door, and you know, it was 1002 01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:45,000 Speaker 1: just really sorted. It was dark and sorted. What made 1003 01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:49,400 Speaker 1: you pick up the guitar down? You know? I always 1004 01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:54,000 Speaker 1: gravitated toward it. I remember that senior year, Sergeant Pepper 1005 01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:58,280 Speaker 1: came out, and I remember being so impressed with Sergeant Pepper, 1006 01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:02,480 Speaker 1: but didn't have any Connation played, but Fresh Cream and 1007 01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:05,720 Speaker 1: Hendrix came out. Those two records came out, and that 1008 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:10,280 Speaker 1: brought me back to the guitar because hearing Clapton and 1009 01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:15,080 Speaker 1: Hendrix were like, whoa guitar can be like this? And 1010 01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,640 Speaker 1: I don't remember a moment that where I picked it 1011 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,440 Speaker 1: back up and said I'm gonna do this. I never 1012 01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:24,080 Speaker 1: really intended to be a musician. It just kind of 1013 01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:28,280 Speaker 1: happened that way. Now, but in your documentary it says 1014 01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,680 Speaker 1: you slept with your guitar, and I think the images 1015 01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:35,280 Speaker 1: of a less Paul. What's the reality there. It really happened. 1016 01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,760 Speaker 1: I that was where I did. That was the time 1017 01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,680 Speaker 1: when I was living in Memphis. I had already had 1018 01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,800 Speaker 1: three or four bands in my Well, then let's stay 1019 01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,520 Speaker 1: with here. You're playing the Strip Club, Give me to Memphis. 1020 01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:51,680 Speaker 1: I've got a I got a band that I joined 1021 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:57,160 Speaker 1: called the Deep Elm Blues Band and Little Screaming Kenny 1022 01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:00,200 Speaker 1: still lives in Houston and plays gigs all the time. 1023 01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:02,880 Speaker 1: He was the bass player and the singer and Rick 1024 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,000 Speaker 1: I can't remember rex Rick's last name. We were a 1025 01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,880 Speaker 1: trio and we played this place called the Seller, and 1026 01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:13,080 Speaker 1: if somebody got up and started stripping, you weren't allowed 1027 01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:15,680 Speaker 1: to stop playing. If you did, you were fired and barred. 1028 01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:19,680 Speaker 1: So you had to learn how to improvise. Always had 1029 01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:22,640 Speaker 1: to learn how to improvise, which worked for me. It 1030 01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:26,720 Speaker 1: was it was our music school, really, and when it 1031 01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:29,600 Speaker 1: whenever we'd switched bands, the other guys had come on 1032 01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,040 Speaker 1: stage while you're playing and switch into your amps and 1033 01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,920 Speaker 1: so the music never stopped. You just kept going and 1034 01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,920 Speaker 1: going and going. And you know, they paid like eight 1035 01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,840 Speaker 1: bucks a night. I mean we were when we went 1036 01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:43,960 Speaker 1: to the fore Worst Seller, we had to get to 1037 01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:47,640 Speaker 1: hotel rooms for the band, and every other night we 1038 01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,880 Speaker 1: had to move everything into one hotel room because we 1039 01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:56,240 Speaker 1: could only afford three hotel rooms. Every two days we 1040 01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:01,000 Speaker 1: couldn't afford for So that's just how low paying it was. 1041 01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:03,880 Speaker 1: But I was living the dream. I was playing guitar. 1042 01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,880 Speaker 1: I was having a great time. That's where I first 1043 01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:11,600 Speaker 1: did L s D. I mean, you know, I was 1044 01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:14,960 Speaker 1: just living the dream and didn't care. I didn't care that, 1045 01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, I was having to hang mayonnaise in the 1046 01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,360 Speaker 1: back of the toilet to keep it cool, you know, 1047 01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,000 Speaker 1: so we'd have turkey sandwiches. I mean, it was just 1048 01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,840 Speaker 1: it was really funky. But you know I learned a 1049 01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,200 Speaker 1: lot there too. That's one of those places that I 1050 01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:34,760 Speaker 1: really consider my schooling came from. So anyway, when that 1051 01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:41,440 Speaker 1: band broke up, I I had a little time that 1052 01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,680 Speaker 1: I came out with my brother. My brother had come 1053 01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:47,280 Speaker 1: out here and gotten record deal with Metro Media. I 1054 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,200 Speaker 1: think it was at the time, and I came out 1055 01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:52,240 Speaker 1: and joined his band for about three months, and then 1056 01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,880 Speaker 1: their manager got arrested for drug dealing. So I went 1057 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,880 Speaker 1: back home and I was living in the park, but 1058 01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:04,160 Speaker 1: I had a roady in the park and a guy 1059 01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,960 Speaker 1: named George Maxi. The only thing that that I'm missing 1060 01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,840 Speaker 1: is there was a band called the Grits that we 1061 01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,080 Speaker 1: kept together for about a year. That personnel changed a 1062 01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:17,640 Speaker 1: bunch of times, but we played a lot at the 1063 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:23,000 Speaker 1: Balkan Gas Company which turned into Armadilla headquarters later, but 1064 01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:29,000 Speaker 1: the Elevators played there, and you know all these different bands, uh, 1065 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,800 Speaker 1: and we played that circuit. After I dropped out of that, 1066 01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:36,240 Speaker 1: I went to Dougs band, and then I came back 1067 01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:37,920 Speaker 1: to l A. And I was living in and came 1068 01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:41,720 Speaker 1: back to Houston living in the park, and some guys 1069 01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,000 Speaker 1: asked me to come over an audition. Now they were 1070 01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:48,280 Speaker 1: way older old guys. They must have been twenty six 1071 01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:53,959 Speaker 1: or twenty seven. I was nineteen or twenty. They felt 1072 01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:57,560 Speaker 1: like they were playing like the old big band clubs 1073 01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:01,320 Speaker 1: to me, and I joined that band. It was called 1074 01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:05,760 Speaker 1: the Silver Spoon, and we moved to Memphis, and that's 1075 01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:10,560 Speaker 1: where I first started my real recording and studios. That 1076 01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:18,200 Speaker 1: band ended up disbanding, but uh, Jerry William H Jerry Thomas, 1077 01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:22,920 Speaker 1: who was b J Thomas's brother, was there. And I 1078 01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:26,280 Speaker 1: had actually had backed b J Thomas up on two 1079 01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:31,720 Speaker 1: gigs in Louisiana when I was about fifteen um and 1080 01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:33,440 Speaker 1: he didn't even hurt for the band. He just came 1081 01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:35,600 Speaker 1: on the stage and said Barefoot and two three four, 1082 01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:37,600 Speaker 1: and we all just sat there. You know, we knew 1083 01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:40,720 Speaker 1: Animal songs, we knew Stone song, but we don't know 1084 01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:44,400 Speaker 1: Barefoot and from Adam. And it was a pretty unsuccessful 1085 01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:49,280 Speaker 1: little stint we did through Louisiana, but I got to 1086 01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,120 Speaker 1: know his brother and and I got to work in 1087 01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:54,480 Speaker 1: the recording studio. I remember one night we were at 1088 01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:58,200 Speaker 1: American Recording Studios and there was this big commotion. We 1089 01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:01,920 Speaker 1: used to get downtime around midnight, and there was this 1090 01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:08,480 Speaker 1: big commotion and and everybody starts whispering and Elvis walks 1091 01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:13,800 Speaker 1: in with his crowd talk about floored. You know, this 1092 01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:18,600 Speaker 1: is nineteen sixty nine, I guess something like that, and 1093 01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:21,479 Speaker 1: that was a big deal. That was a real big deal, 1094 01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,240 Speaker 1: and you know, but that kind of stuff was going 1095 01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:29,559 Speaker 1: on in Memphis and places like that. Nashville I spent 1096 01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,639 Speaker 1: virtually no time, but Memphis I spent a lot of time. 1097 01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:36,000 Speaker 1: And that's where Rodny Millsap came broke out of And 1098 01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,240 Speaker 1: there was a band called Flash and the Cadillac Kids 1099 01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:44,400 Speaker 1: and a lot of local bands. Same state to two 1100 01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:49,080 Speaker 1: totally different mindsets. Really, well, there was so much. There 1101 01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:51,040 Speaker 1: was a lot of blues and Memphis and that kind 1102 01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:54,120 Speaker 1: of stuff. You know, at that point, Nashville was just 1103 01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:58,640 Speaker 1: pure country, at least from my point of view. So 1104 01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:00,840 Speaker 1: you're telling me about sleeping your guitar and how you 1105 01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,600 Speaker 1: ultimately get a record deal. Okay, Well that has to 1106 01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,479 Speaker 1: do with Silver Spoon. When I was living with them, 1107 01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:12,960 Speaker 1: I was that was when I really started my drug intake. 1108 01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,240 Speaker 1: And they had these pills that were one half speed 1109 01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:19,240 Speaker 1: and one half Downer, and you were supposed to take 1110 01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:22,840 Speaker 1: them together, but I would split them and take the 1111 01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:25,040 Speaker 1: Speed all day longer than the Downers all night. And 1112 01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:27,800 Speaker 1: I would lay in bed with my guitar and drink 1113 01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:30,719 Speaker 1: coffee and play until I fell asleep. And I sleep 1114 01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:34,040 Speaker 1: on my guitar. Didn't have a girlfriend, didn't matter, And 1115 01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:35,600 Speaker 1: I get up in the morning and first thing I 1116 01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,400 Speaker 1: do is just play and that's all I did all 1117 01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:40,840 Speaker 1: the time, was just play guitar. So I really did 1118 01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:43,720 Speaker 1: sleep on my guitar. That's a true story that it 1119 01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:48,920 Speaker 1: was a blacklist Paul, and uh, you know, I had 1120 01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:53,120 Speaker 1: it in battled with me all the time. Huh. We 1121 01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:58,960 Speaker 1: that this band. Slowly we went back to Houston. Uh, 1122 01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:04,080 Speaker 1: we're woke up. And then one of the songs that 1123 01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,920 Speaker 1: we were that we wrote was recorded on Johnny Winner's 1124 01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,920 Speaker 1: second Winter album called The Good Love, but the bass 1125 01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:13,360 Speaker 1: player took all the credits, so we you know, we 1126 01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:16,240 Speaker 1: were all outset of him. He's long passed away. I 1127 01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:22,000 Speaker 1: don't have any issue with him. Uh, But so that 1128 01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:24,519 Speaker 1: was you know, I was starting to go, Wow, if 1129 01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:29,240 Speaker 1: I do something, somebody can like it. And I joined this. 1130 01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:33,519 Speaker 1: I had a bout of hepatitis and living in fort 1131 01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:37,920 Speaker 1: Worth and I would you probably know who Jerry Williams, 1132 01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:42,840 Speaker 1: don't you. Well? Jerry Williams was living in fort Worth 1133 01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:48,200 Speaker 1: then and I joined him Linda Wearing and Randy Cakes 1134 01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:52,040 Speaker 1: and we formed the Jerry Williams Group and we played 1135 01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:55,560 Speaker 1: local clubs and everything, and we were getting ready to 1136 01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:57,599 Speaker 1: come out to the West Coast for a record deal. 1137 01:10:57,680 --> 01:10:59,720 Speaker 1: You know, it was all going to happen, And three 1138 01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:01,599 Speaker 1: days before we were supposed to leave, I came down 1139 01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:04,640 Speaker 1: with appatitis. So I got stuck in the hospital. They 1140 01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:09,240 Speaker 1: told me I couldn't play music anymore. Uh I didn't. 1141 01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:13,599 Speaker 1: I didn't go with Jerry, and then they came out. 1142 01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:16,080 Speaker 1: They got a record deal. Jerry did a bunch of 1143 01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:18,840 Speaker 1: acid and took a left turn and that record never 1144 01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:24,240 Speaker 1: even came out. But I got sick, and when I 1145 01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:26,000 Speaker 1: got out, they told me, if you get back into 1146 01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,200 Speaker 1: music business, you're gonna be dead. And this is from 1147 01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:31,280 Speaker 1: taking all those drugs and all that stuff. It just so. 1148 01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:33,880 Speaker 1: I got a gig in a music store and lasted 1149 01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:37,240 Speaker 1: about three weeks and I just couldn't do it. So 1150 01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:40,200 Speaker 1: I moved to Colorado with this other band that I 1151 01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:43,680 Speaker 1: knew from the Fort Worth area, and I do one 1152 01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:46,080 Speaker 1: gig a week and then rest the rest of the time. 1153 01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:47,840 Speaker 1: Then I built it up to two and built it 1154 01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:51,000 Speaker 1: up to three. That was a little band called Aphrodite, 1155 01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:55,000 Speaker 1: and we worked out of Denver. That's the band that 1156 01:11:55,120 --> 01:12:00,200 Speaker 1: when Emerson Lake and Palmer came through town. The old 1157 01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:02,679 Speaker 1: crew came down to a little club we were playing 1158 01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:05,840 Speaker 1: at and we're just knocked out, and they said, we're 1159 01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:08,880 Speaker 1: going to get you a record deal. And they went 1160 01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,400 Speaker 1: and finished the Immerson, Lake and Palmer tour, came back 1161 01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:16,680 Speaker 1: to Denver and put us on this circuit where we 1162 01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,360 Speaker 1: were saying, last gig before we go to Europe and 1163 01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:23,600 Speaker 1: before our European tour, and got us, you know, endorsements 1164 01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:25,800 Speaker 1: for ants and all this stuff, and all of a 1165 01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,680 Speaker 1: sudden everything grew big p s and uh so we 1166 01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:32,040 Speaker 1: raised a bunch of money to supplies to England and 1167 01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:35,160 Speaker 1: we went over to England. It didn't go well in England. 1168 01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:39,400 Speaker 1: We were there about six months and at that point 1169 01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:43,160 Speaker 1: my girlfriend was having helping support the band. We lived 1170 01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:46,840 Speaker 1: in just this awful flat that you needed shillings to 1171 01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:51,880 Speaker 1: get hot water or propane or gas whatever. And then 1172 01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:57,800 Speaker 1: we cut an ascetate. We were still aphrodite. We couldn't 1173 01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:01,519 Speaker 1: ascetate at the play is called que Bridge. It was 1174 01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:04,120 Speaker 1: a little live room, but they also could cut an 1175 01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:07,040 Speaker 1: asset take there, and somehow we got it to Greg 1176 01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:10,360 Speaker 1: Lake and Greg listened to it and he liked it, 1177 01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:12,800 Speaker 1: and he called us up and we went into the 1178 01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:17,040 Speaker 1: studio with Greg for a day and cut three songs 1179 01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:23,360 Speaker 1: and After that, Greg called me over to his house 1180 01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,760 Speaker 1: and he said, listen, I love what you do. That 1181 01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:29,320 Speaker 1: he was the problem with the band. The drummer would 1182 01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:32,720 Speaker 1: get better every take. I was good first take, get 1183 01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:36,200 Speaker 1: a little worse, second take, third take. The fire was 1184 01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:38,920 Speaker 1: gone by the sixth take when he got good. So 1185 01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:41,720 Speaker 1: what Greg said to me was, listen, I'd love to 1186 01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:45,120 Speaker 1: work with you, but I can't work with you with 1187 01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:48,920 Speaker 1: this band. If you want to stay with that band, 1188 01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:50,720 Speaker 1: then you should go on, and I wish you good luck. 1189 01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:53,960 Speaker 1: But if you want to work with me, I'll help 1190 01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:59,960 Speaker 1: you put a band together and we'll make a bad 1191 01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:03,200 Speaker 1: and around you. So that's what I did. I went 1192 01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:05,280 Speaker 1: to my drummer and I totally said you gotta do it, 1193 01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:09,400 Speaker 1: you gotta, you gotta do it. So the bass player 1194 01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:13,280 Speaker 1: state Al Roberts and and we went on a quest 1195 01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,800 Speaker 1: to find the drummer. We had Cozy Powell and you know, 1196 01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:21,439 Speaker 1: all these different people. We went all around England, couldn't 1197 01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:25,760 Speaker 1: find anybody, just auditioning people who came to America. I 1198 01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:28,519 Speaker 1: went to New York, went to Houston, we went to 1199 01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:30,760 Speaker 1: Denver to try somebody out. We ended up in l 1200 01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:35,360 Speaker 1: A for our last a bout of tryouts and Nold 1201 01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:39,000 Speaker 1: Redding was in town rehearsing with his band, and we 1202 01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:41,799 Speaker 1: got his drummer to come over, fellow named Less Sampson, 1203 01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:45,920 Speaker 1: and it was magic. And that's when we put the 1204 01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:50,040 Speaker 1: three piece bands Straight Dog together. That recorded on Mantical Records, 1205 01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:55,000 Speaker 1: was my first record deal. I was twenty three, maybe 1206 01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:59,640 Speaker 1: twenty four, you know, seventy three when we recorded the 1207 01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:03,120 Speaker 1: record came out and seventy four, so yeah, I was 1208 01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:07,200 Speaker 1: twenty three and and I had a record deal with 1209 01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:11,160 Speaker 1: a big label and it was Manticore Records released by 1210 01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:14,160 Speaker 1: Atlantic over here, and they were going to take us 1211 01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:18,160 Speaker 1: on a world tour as their opening act. And you know, 1212 01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:21,720 Speaker 1: the truth of the matter is I just couldn't handle it. 1213 01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:27,200 Speaker 1: We were great musically, we weren't songwriters, so we got 1214 01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:31,320 Speaker 1: no airplay. We only got underground FM airplay. We had 1215 01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:35,800 Speaker 1: a real cult following, but we didn't weren't songwriters, so 1216 01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:42,920 Speaker 1: we didn't get airplay. And we My alcoholism continued through 1217 01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:46,599 Speaker 1: that point and was getting worse and worse. And then 1218 01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:48,600 Speaker 1: we started a tour. We toured all of Europe with 1219 01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:51,519 Speaker 1: Lake and Palmer are doing you know, everything from fifty 1220 01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:57,000 Speaker 1: tho sedar stadiums to the Olympic, Holland and Munich, and 1221 01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:01,639 Speaker 1: then we came to America. We did the whole East 1222 01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:05,519 Speaker 1: coast of America and we ended up that tour and 1223 01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,840 Speaker 1: there's a lot of sordid stories that go on through 1224 01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:13,120 Speaker 1: all that with my drinking and stuff. But we ended 1225 01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:19,360 Speaker 1: up playing two nights in Madison Square Garden before Christmas four, 1226 01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:25,439 Speaker 1: I guess, and they rolled me back to the hotel. 1227 01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,760 Speaker 1: I was so drunk and in my white leather ballero suit, 1228 01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,040 Speaker 1: and two days later I got the word that, you know, 1229 01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,920 Speaker 1: we no longer need your services on this tour. So 1230 01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:38,519 Speaker 1: we moved the band to l A. Ended up doing 1231 01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:44,719 Speaker 1: one more record in l A. And then basically something 1232 01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:47,599 Speaker 1: happened where I had to come home and I called everybody. 1233 01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:51,320 Speaker 1: I said, I'm gonna come back tomorrow, and they said, well, 1234 01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:54,240 Speaker 1: if you come back, the whole band, Squitty So Stray 1235 01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:57,280 Speaker 1: Dog broke up. As far as I was concerned, I 1236 01:16:57,439 --> 01:16:59,120 Speaker 1: was no longer in the band, and they broke up. 1237 01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:02,400 Speaker 1: Six weeks later. We were on tour Dave Mason at 1238 01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:04,880 Speaker 1: that time, and there was a fight between the bass 1239 01:17:04,920 --> 01:17:06,799 Speaker 1: player and myself and I ended up in the hospital. 1240 01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:09,840 Speaker 1: So but you know all that comes under the heading 1241 01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:14,040 Speaker 1: of my alcoholism. Dude, you got that story. That's how 1242 01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:17,040 Speaker 1: I got my record deal. Okay, so how did you 1243 01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:20,280 Speaker 1: How did you get from being drunk, kicked out of 1244 01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:25,920 Speaker 1: your own band, two, getting sober, and then being a 1245 01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:30,120 Speaker 1: road guy and studio guy. Well, you know, I was 1246 01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:32,759 Speaker 1: doing a lot of studio work. I did a record 1247 01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:38,639 Speaker 1: was free, you know, when coss Off was was too 1248 01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:42,960 Speaker 1: in his disease to do it. I played with the 1249 01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:46,439 Speaker 1: guy to keep Sinfield. I did a concert over there 1250 01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:50,120 Speaker 1: as Bill Withers guitar player one time over in London, 1251 01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:52,559 Speaker 1: you know, because I was a Texas guitar player in London. 1252 01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:55,599 Speaker 1: That's the way I looked at it. If Hendricks could 1253 01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:59,120 Speaker 1: go from from New York to London and be a hit, 1254 01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:02,240 Speaker 1: then maybe a XS guitar player could come to London 1255 01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:05,360 Speaker 1: and make some noise. So you know, I got a 1256 01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:10,600 Speaker 1: lot of opportunities, but I just I didn't have the 1257 01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:16,519 Speaker 1: wherewithal and the solid background, you know, the upbringing and 1258 01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:22,000 Speaker 1: and all that stuff to be secure enough to go 1259 01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:27,000 Speaker 1: from nothing to playing at fort SA gigs. I mean, 1260 01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:31,519 Speaker 1: you know what happens is your egos on one side 1261 01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:34,400 Speaker 1: and your insecurities on the other side, and they slowly 1262 01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:38,000 Speaker 1: diverge and get farther and farther apart, and you're left 1263 01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:40,320 Speaker 1: with the hole in the middle. And that's what happened 1264 01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:42,639 Speaker 1: to me, and so I tried to fill that whole 1265 01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:47,040 Speaker 1: with alcohol. And you know, when the band moved to 1266 01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:49,479 Speaker 1: l A and then it broke up. I had a 1267 01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:52,960 Speaker 1: band called the Walton Olsen Band with Mark Olson, Rare Earth. 1268 01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:58,559 Speaker 1: UH toured with different people, Alsta Haley, who's got We've 1269 01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:02,000 Speaker 1: got a record coming out from the Evan Deeson And 1270 01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:06,800 Speaker 1: then I started playing with Eric Burdon and that turned 1271 01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:08,920 Speaker 1: out great. I toured with Eric Burden off and on 1272 01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:12,479 Speaker 1: for the next three or four years. And you know, 1273 01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:16,400 Speaker 1: I could drink successfully with Eric because everybody else was 1274 01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:21,640 Speaker 1: crazy too. So you know, we had got Ronnie what 1275 01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:27,120 Speaker 1: was his name, amazing Louisiana piano player, Ronnie Baron. I 1276 01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:30,439 Speaker 1: don't know if you've heard of him, you know, dr 1277 01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:33,920 Speaker 1: John kind of guy. And that was the band, and 1278 01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:36,519 Speaker 1: then Rabbit joined the band. Rabbit who played in The 1279 01:19:36,600 --> 01:19:39,240 Speaker 1: Who for twenty years and played in Free. Rabbit and 1280 01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:42,280 Speaker 1: I were friends since Houston, so we've known each other 1281 01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:45,880 Speaker 1: and Uh, Rabbit came into the band, and then Tony 1282 01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:48,640 Speaker 1: Brownegle and Terry Wilson came into the band, and they 1283 01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,559 Speaker 1: were also from Houston. So we were a core four 1284 01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:55,960 Speaker 1: piece behind Eric with a couple of extras, with a 1285 01:19:56,040 --> 01:19:59,479 Speaker 1: sax player and another keyboard player, and we became his 1286 01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:01,759 Speaker 1: core and and we toured with him whenever he toured. 1287 01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:05,320 Speaker 1: We were all nuts, you know. I ended up doing 1288 01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:08,760 Speaker 1: a record with Terry and Tony when they had a 1289 01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,679 Speaker 1: band called Backstreet Crawler, when cost Off was too sick 1290 01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:14,040 Speaker 1: to do that record. So I did that record for 1291 01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:18,880 Speaker 1: I was always kind of behind Costs, you know, filling 1292 01:20:18,920 --> 01:20:22,000 Speaker 1: in for him when he when he wasn't well. And 1293 01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:26,800 Speaker 1: so I did all these things, and you know, I 1294 01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:33,439 Speaker 1: was toured with Eric Burden and in I guess it 1295 01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:39,839 Speaker 1: was January. Yeah, I went and saw my dad Christmas 1296 01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:49,040 Speaker 1: of nineteen nineteen, and ah, he looked different, and I 1297 01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:50,640 Speaker 1: asked him what he did. He said, well, you know, 1298 01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:54,559 Speaker 1: I read this book and I stopped drinking. And I said, 1299 01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:56,960 Speaker 1: let me see that. I talked to him out of 1300 01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:02,760 Speaker 1: the book he had read, and ended up coming home 1301 01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:04,880 Speaker 1: deciding that I didn't have a problem with alcohol. The 1302 01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:06,920 Speaker 1: problem was my wife wouldn't let me drink the way 1303 01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:09,640 Speaker 1: I wanted. So I came home and drank like a 1304 01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:12,240 Speaker 1: man for two weeks, kind of came out of a 1305 01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:15,320 Speaker 1: blackout and knew I needed trouble, and I made a 1306 01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:19,840 Speaker 1: call to get help. And so for that first year 1307 01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:23,200 Speaker 1: where I was trying to stop drinking, I was still touring. 1308 01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:26,000 Speaker 1: I was going out and doing gigs and we did 1309 01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:29,240 Speaker 1: a film over in Berlin with Eric, and then I 1310 01:21:29,320 --> 01:21:32,920 Speaker 1: had Lost Week in the Lost Week in London, Ah, 1311 01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:37,240 Speaker 1: and then I came home and you know, bouncing around. 1312 01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:38,960 Speaker 1: I got asked to go back out with Eric, and 1313 01:21:39,040 --> 01:21:42,120 Speaker 1: I did. And at that point I was telling everybody 1314 01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:44,680 Speaker 1: that I wasn't even drinking because everybody knew that I 1315 01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:47,920 Speaker 1: had tried was trying to stop. So I'd rush into 1316 01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:49,920 Speaker 1: the dressing room after the gig and knocked back a 1317 01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:55,320 Speaker 1: couple of Tikito Sunrises and uh, and then just drink 1318 01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:58,640 Speaker 1: my orange juice like everybody else. So one night I 1319 01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:01,639 Speaker 1: had a bad night in a love with drugs and alcohol, 1320 01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:04,360 Speaker 1: and I hit and run five cards and go through 1321 01:22:04,439 --> 01:22:08,000 Speaker 1: security gates in my hotel and ended up in trashing 1322 01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:11,479 Speaker 1: my room. And the next morning it was a dear 1323 01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:13,240 Speaker 1: friend of mine. Michael Ruff. I don't know if you 1324 01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:15,360 Speaker 1: know him. He wrote for Bonny and different people. But 1325 01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:18,679 Speaker 1: Michael was in the band with Eric at that time. 1326 01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:22,640 Speaker 1: And I was down in the dining room trying to 1327 01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:25,160 Speaker 1: force some food down, and Michael came and sat down 1328 01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:26,720 Speaker 1: next to me and talked to me a little bit, 1329 01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:31,000 Speaker 1: and then he said, Stuffy, I love you too much 1330 01:22:31,080 --> 01:22:33,640 Speaker 1: to watch you kill yourself. When we get back to 1331 01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:38,759 Speaker 1: l A, don't ever call me again. And that really 1332 01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:42,960 Speaker 1: rang from me. And I stayed there another six weeks, 1333 01:22:43,040 --> 01:22:47,160 Speaker 1: touring and producing a record. But I ended up in 1334 01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:53,760 Speaker 1: the Sydney Australian Airport Christmas Eve and I looked in 1335 01:22:53,840 --> 01:22:55,760 Speaker 1: the mirror behind the bar after I ordered a few 1336 01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:58,640 Speaker 1: drinks and I realized that I really was an alcoholic. 1337 01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:00,479 Speaker 1: And that's when I first did made it to my 1338 01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:05,639 Speaker 1: animal self, and I believe I entered the Stacey Grace there. 1339 01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:08,160 Speaker 1: I didn't expect to stop drinking, but that's the last 1340 01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:10,120 Speaker 1: drink I ever had was in that bar in Sydney. 1341 01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:15,639 Speaker 1: So that's close to forty years ago. So how did 1342 01:23:15,720 --> 01:23:19,559 Speaker 1: you stop and stay off? Well, you know, I stopped 1343 01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:28,040 Speaker 1: h I worked with the Fellowship, I read the books, 1344 01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:31,760 Speaker 1: I learned how to be of service rather than to 1345 01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:35,360 Speaker 1: serve myself. What happened was after that Christmas, then I 1346 01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:39,880 Speaker 1: had a New Year's Eve gig where I started playing good, 1347 01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:41,880 Speaker 1: but I couldn't play, and I finally walked out of 1348 01:23:41,920 --> 01:23:45,000 Speaker 1: the session and said, don't pay me. And then on 1349 01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:48,479 Speaker 1: January eleven two, I got a phone call to go 1350 01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:50,840 Speaker 1: back on the road with Eric, and I got off 1351 01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:53,320 Speaker 1: the phone. I said, I'll call you back, and I 1352 01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:55,920 Speaker 1: got off the phone, and I panicked because I knew 1353 01:23:56,000 --> 01:24:00,519 Speaker 1: I had to choose life or music, because I had 1354 01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:03,960 Speaker 1: been trying for a year to do music sober and 1355 01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:08,240 Speaker 1: I couldn't do it. And so I just threw myself 1356 01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:15,120 Speaker 1: into everything I could having to do with recovery. I 1357 01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:19,639 Speaker 1: never went to rehab or anything, but just bare knuckled 1358 01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:23,920 Speaker 1: it and had you know, still had friends who were sober, 1359 01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:25,920 Speaker 1: and I just hung out with them and quit playing 1360 01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:28,759 Speaker 1: music for a year. I didn't expect to ever play again. 1361 01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:32,560 Speaker 1: Got a job doing phone sales and this set and 1362 01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:36,559 Speaker 1: the other, and then I got asked to come sit 1363 01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:39,840 Speaker 1: in for somebody, and I went and sat in with them, 1364 01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:42,720 Speaker 1: and I was afraid nothing was going to happen. No 1365 01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:45,439 Speaker 1: music was going to come out, and yet when I 1366 01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:49,080 Speaker 1: started playing, it did. So that kind of got me 1367 01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:54,040 Speaker 1: into doing those night gigs around l A, which kind 1368 01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:57,320 Speaker 1: of brought me to doing some bigger gigs and playing 1369 01:24:57,360 --> 01:25:01,040 Speaker 1: with Michael Ruff and at my place, and then touring 1370 01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:04,600 Speaker 1: with Shaka and then musical director for Laura Brannigan and 1371 01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, it was just going up, but it was 1372 01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:13,200 Speaker 1: all Sideman stuff. And that trajects me into where we 1373 01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:16,240 Speaker 1: started this conversation where I was playing with Michael Ruff 1374 01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:21,360 Speaker 1: New Year's nine and got approached by an agent. So 1375 01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:24,719 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's short, but you get a synopsis. Okay, 1376 01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:28,560 Speaker 1: let's go back to the wife you came back. Is 1377 01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:34,240 Speaker 1: that the same wife you're married to now? No? I had? Uh? 1378 01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:37,280 Speaker 1: That was wife number two? So Hi, wives, have you 1379 01:25:37,360 --> 01:25:44,000 Speaker 1: had three? Uh? And I'm not probably not going to 1380 01:25:44,080 --> 01:25:48,559 Speaker 1: have more? Uh? Now? The first wife was my agent 1381 01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:51,680 Speaker 1: who who took care of us over in London when 1382 01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:54,640 Speaker 1: when Aphrodite was trying to get together, and then I 1383 01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:56,640 Speaker 1: came to l A with her. We moved to l 1384 01:25:56,720 --> 01:25:58,679 Speaker 1: A when she came out here to work with Jerry 1385 01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:02,880 Speaker 1: Goldstein she goal, and that's how I ended up knowing 1386 01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:06,000 Speaker 1: Eric and getting in that band, but I followed her 1387 01:26:06,040 --> 01:26:08,920 Speaker 1: out here and then I tripped off for a while 1388 01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:11,920 Speaker 1: with this other girl, and then I came back with 1389 01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:15,360 Speaker 1: her and married her. And then two weeks later the 1390 01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:18,240 Speaker 1: girl I had tripped off with started throwing rocks at 1391 01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:20,479 Speaker 1: my door. And so I mean, I was a mess. 1392 01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:22,720 Speaker 1: Let me tell you, I was a mess. I ended 1393 01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:26,519 Speaker 1: up only staying married nine months. I had like an 1394 01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:31,360 Speaker 1: emotional breakdown. Then I got a divorce. Then I married 1395 01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:34,679 Speaker 1: the mistress. That lasted nine months. When I came home 1396 01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:40,000 Speaker 1: from my dad's I was living with my second wife, 1397 01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:44,479 Speaker 1: who promptly left me two weeks after I got back, 1398 01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:50,200 Speaker 1: and we lived together just for a little while, and 1399 01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:52,680 Speaker 1: then she just bailed because I was a mess. I 1400 01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:55,840 Speaker 1: was just a mess, And so that marriage lasted as 1401 01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:59,200 Speaker 1: a marriage nine months. So you know, I didn't have 1402 01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:02,800 Speaker 1: a very good rick coming into this deal. The year 1403 01:27:03,080 --> 01:27:07,519 Speaker 1: I started scoring television was also the year I met 1404 01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:10,800 Speaker 1: my wife. It's the year everything changed for me. I 1405 01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:17,080 Speaker 1: was five years sober and seven everything flipped and all 1406 01:27:17,080 --> 01:27:19,760 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was scoring a hit television show. 1407 01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:23,200 Speaker 1: I had met my wife to be, who was going 1408 01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:27,920 Speaker 1: to bear two kids, and and I've had the last 1409 01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:31,760 Speaker 1: twenty nine and thirty one years with them. I mean, 1410 01:27:32,439 --> 01:27:36,759 Speaker 1: my life totally changed. And you know, I really believe 1411 01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:39,000 Speaker 1: it wouldn't have been possible. She'd have had nothing to 1412 01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:40,840 Speaker 1: do with me if I'm still drinking, and I'd probably 1413 01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:44,720 Speaker 1: be dead by the end of anyway. But so for me, 1414 01:27:46,400 --> 01:27:52,519 Speaker 1: getting sober was really the mechanism that brought me a 1415 01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:57,640 Speaker 1: whole second life, an entire second life, separate from the 1416 01:27:57,760 --> 01:28:00,479 Speaker 1: rock and roll thing that I blew because I had 1417 01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:03,479 Speaker 1: an opportunity. You know, if I'd had my head on straight, 1418 01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:07,080 Speaker 1: I could have turned that into a successful career. But 1419 01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:13,280 Speaker 1: so five years sober, I got this whole new life. Uh, 1420 01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:17,679 Speaker 1: and it's all because of sobriety. How did you meet 1421 01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:19,960 Speaker 1: your second wife? And you also said just before we 1422 01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:22,840 Speaker 1: started that year, her health is not good. You know. 1423 01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:27,920 Speaker 1: It's my third wife and she was diagnosed with all 1424 01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:33,200 Speaker 1: simmer five years ago. So we've been married thirty two years, 1425 01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:35,720 Speaker 1: been together thirty four years. So I beat the nine 1426 01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:39,120 Speaker 1: month thing I did. My second wife actually was the 1427 01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:42,120 Speaker 1: mistress from my first wife, So you know, I just 1428 01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:43,920 Speaker 1: kind of went a ping pong back and forth. I 1429 01:28:43,960 --> 01:28:45,320 Speaker 1: didn't know what I wanted. I don't know what I 1430 01:28:45,439 --> 01:28:50,120 Speaker 1: was doing. But you know, to me, everything pre getting 1431 01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:55,200 Speaker 1: sober was a different guy. I almost feel like God 1432 01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:57,559 Speaker 1: kind of reached down and took out the damaged soul 1433 01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:00,479 Speaker 1: and put a cleanman back in. I really do. I 1434 01:29:00,840 --> 01:29:04,240 Speaker 1: I feel that strongly about it, and my handwriting changed 1435 01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:09,120 Speaker 1: after I got sober, so I don't know take it 1436 01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:12,680 Speaker 1: as you want people listening. I really believe it was 1437 01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:16,000 Speaker 1: an actor grace, and I'm gonna go with that story. 1438 01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:19,840 Speaker 1: So how did you meet your third wife? I met her. 1439 01:29:21,280 --> 01:29:24,519 Speaker 1: She would come down into at my place and when 1440 01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:27,640 Speaker 1: we play. We started out playing with Michael Rough, my 1441 01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:31,160 Speaker 1: friend down there, playing just Sunday nights and I was 1442 01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:35,400 Speaker 1: two years two years sober. We built that up over 1443 01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:38,160 Speaker 1: a couple of years to where we were playing weekends, 1444 01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:41,280 Speaker 1: four sold out shows every time we played, and she 1445 01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:46,280 Speaker 1: would always come second show, second set, second day, second set, 1446 01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:49,839 Speaker 1: Saturday night, last set. Because the band was so musical. 1447 01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:53,679 Speaker 1: It was, you know, Ralph Humphrees drums and Jimmy Johnson 1448 01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:58,040 Speaker 1: on bass, and we had Cheryl Crow, Vona Shepherd, Leslie 1449 01:29:58,120 --> 01:30:00,599 Speaker 1: Smith on background vocals and that it was a four 1450 01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:04,840 Speaker 1: piece corep and we were selling out every show we 1451 01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:07,200 Speaker 1: booked there and she used to come down because the 1452 01:30:07,280 --> 01:30:10,360 Speaker 1: music was great, and it wasn't a meet joint, you know, 1453 01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:13,479 Speaker 1: it wasn't where you hit on girls, so she could 1454 01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:18,280 Speaker 1: go and and and do that. At that point, she 1455 01:30:18,560 --> 01:30:24,880 Speaker 1: was working for Steven Spielberg as his assistant, and somebody 1456 01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:28,719 Speaker 1: introduced me to her, and I just remember looking into 1457 01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:32,000 Speaker 1: her eyes and going and when she walked away, I 1458 01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:35,519 Speaker 1: couldn't have told you if she was five two pounds, 1459 01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:38,800 Speaker 1: I couldn't have tell you anything. I just connected and 1460 01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:43,320 Speaker 1: then I chased her. That was in June probably of 1461 01:30:43,439 --> 01:30:46,120 Speaker 1: that summer, and I chased her until I finally got 1462 01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:50,960 Speaker 1: her to go out with me in November, and she 1463 01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:53,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't have anything. She kept saying, I'm too busy, you know, 1464 01:30:53,439 --> 01:30:56,360 Speaker 1: Stephen takes all my time. And I finally got her 1465 01:30:56,439 --> 01:30:59,680 Speaker 1: to go out with me, and but I called her 1466 01:30:59,760 --> 01:31:02,640 Speaker 1: and she said, also, I don't I don't date musicians. 1467 01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:05,400 Speaker 1: And I finally called up. I said, I'm a composer, 1468 01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:08,240 Speaker 1: because thirty something had just gotten on the air, and 1469 01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:11,639 Speaker 1: so she said, okay, I got an opening in three weeks. 1470 01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:15,000 Speaker 1: So I waited three weeks and we went to sushi 1471 01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:17,519 Speaker 1: and she sat me down and she said listen. You 1472 01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:19,759 Speaker 1: know what, if you're just interested in a little flank, 1473 01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:21,760 Speaker 1: I'm not interested. We might as well have our tea 1474 01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:23,760 Speaker 1: and get up and go our own ways. If you're 1475 01:31:23,840 --> 01:31:28,240 Speaker 1: interested in a serious relationship that's going somewhere, then then 1476 01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:32,479 Speaker 1: I'll talk. And we closed the sushi choine and we 1477 01:31:32,560 --> 01:31:35,599 Speaker 1: were together from that moment on. So what's the state 1478 01:31:35,640 --> 01:31:44,320 Speaker 1: of her Alzheimer's and what's it like for you? You know, 1479 01:31:44,479 --> 01:31:46,320 Speaker 1: it's been the roughest thing I've ever gone through in 1480 01:31:46,400 --> 01:31:52,360 Speaker 1: my sobriety. We just she had early on set. We 1481 01:31:52,560 --> 01:31:56,120 Speaker 1: just moved her to be a resident in the memory 1482 01:31:56,200 --> 01:32:00,639 Speaker 1: care facility two weeks ago. So it's very us, very 1483 01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:06,200 Speaker 1: raw um. But she seems pretty happy. I went out 1484 01:32:06,200 --> 01:32:09,519 Speaker 1: and had an early Thanksgiving dinner with her yesterday and 1485 01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:13,439 Speaker 1: we spent a couple of hours just laughing and talking. 1486 01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:20,240 Speaker 1: You know, she doesn't we don't have the sadness besides 1487 01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:22,320 Speaker 1: the fact that it happened to her. It was not 1488 01:32:22,560 --> 01:32:24,600 Speaker 1: in her family that we knew of it all, but 1489 01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:27,720 Speaker 1: she had it was gene. She got a gene on 1490 01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:30,680 Speaker 1: both sides, so that's why she got the early all 1491 01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:35,599 Speaker 1: summers in the sixties. The thing that's really sad. Besides 1492 01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:42,080 Speaker 1: the fact that she's slowly disappearing, is that all those 1493 01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:45,240 Speaker 1: shared members, we had, all the little things where you 1494 01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:47,960 Speaker 1: had drive by a hotdog judge, remember when we were 1495 01:32:48,040 --> 01:32:51,080 Speaker 1: over there with so and so. Those are all gone. 1496 01:32:51,160 --> 01:32:56,960 Speaker 1: Now that's there only with me. And you know, when 1497 01:32:57,000 --> 01:33:00,120 Speaker 1: I went and saw her yesterday, you know, we we 1498 01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:04,120 Speaker 1: don't talk much about the past. She was talking about 1499 01:33:04,200 --> 01:33:08,280 Speaker 1: dogs that are like it died thirteen years ago or something. 1500 01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:11,120 Speaker 1: That's kind of where her memory is right now. So 1501 01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:15,599 Speaker 1: she's she's in a safe place. We had too many 1502 01:33:15,680 --> 01:33:19,439 Speaker 1: instances in a row where it was unsafe for her 1503 01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:22,240 Speaker 1: to stay here. And my agreement was that I keep 1504 01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:25,200 Speaker 1: her safe, comfortable, and as happy as I could. And 1505 01:33:25,320 --> 01:33:27,760 Speaker 1: when I could no longer keep her safe, I had 1506 01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:30,920 Speaker 1: I had to make a change. Does she know who 1507 01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:34,920 Speaker 1: you are? So? Oh? Yeah, she she Most of the 1508 01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:37,320 Speaker 1: time she knows we're married. Sometimes she thinks we're having 1509 01:33:37,360 --> 01:33:47,680 Speaker 1: a fling. It's kind of cute. Okay, how does the 1510 01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:51,920 Speaker 1: money working? Composing and you talk about your hiring these 1511 01:33:52,000 --> 01:34:02,759 Speaker 1: different people amplify that. When I started television, the primary 1512 01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:06,840 Speaker 1: model was you got a fee for writing the music, 1513 01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:11,920 Speaker 1: you got paid for orchestration, separately, and the musicians were 1514 01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:15,240 Speaker 1: all paid for separately. All of that was paid your fee, 1515 01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:18,920 Speaker 1: the orchestration and the musicians, and all the things going 1516 01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:24,720 Speaker 1: into the recording, we're all paid by the production. When 1517 01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:30,000 Speaker 1: I came in, the concept of a package had just started. 1518 01:34:30,680 --> 01:34:34,960 Speaker 1: They give you one fee, and you spend whatever you 1519 01:34:35,080 --> 01:34:38,880 Speaker 1: want and keep whatever you want, but you've got to 1520 01:34:38,920 --> 01:34:45,479 Speaker 1: produce something we love. So I came in making way 1521 01:34:45,560 --> 01:34:49,800 Speaker 1: lower on the wave scale then Mike Post because my 1522 01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:52,160 Speaker 1: post was had been doing it for ten years already, 1523 01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:56,200 Speaker 1: and Mike was doing that that model of a session. 1524 01:34:56,320 --> 01:35:00,240 Speaker 1: The fee, the orgustration, and the and the session fee 1525 01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:03,600 Speaker 1: all get paid separately from the production. So when I 1526 01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:07,320 Speaker 1: came in, they offered me a package which is X 1527 01:35:07,360 --> 01:35:10,800 Speaker 1: amount of dollars, and out of that I covered my musicians, 1528 01:35:10,880 --> 01:35:17,240 Speaker 1: I covered my engineer, I cover uh any extra costs 1529 01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:19,519 Speaker 1: of workers. I never put anything on paper, so we 1530 01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:22,600 Speaker 1: didn't have them any costs. So our costs early on 1531 01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:27,439 Speaker 1: were very small, and the packages were healthy compared to 1532 01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:30,200 Speaker 1: what I was making as a sideman. You know, all 1533 01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:32,920 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was making like whoa thousands of 1534 01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:36,880 Speaker 1: dollars a week for just writing music and having my 1535 01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:40,040 Speaker 1: name on the screen too. And then I found out 1536 01:35:40,080 --> 01:35:42,639 Speaker 1: about B M I and royalties, and that was like whoa, 1537 01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:45,640 Speaker 1: Now they're gonna pay me royalties for this too. It 1538 01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:49,000 Speaker 1: was like I died and went to heaven. But the 1539 01:35:49,160 --> 01:35:55,200 Speaker 1: package came more and more and more into play over 1540 01:35:55,320 --> 01:35:59,280 Speaker 1: the first five to seven years I was, I was 1541 01:35:59,360 --> 01:36:02,920 Speaker 1: doing it. I've never worked under the old structure of 1542 01:36:03,760 --> 01:36:09,280 Speaker 1: composer's fee, orchestration and and musicians. I've always worked under 1543 01:36:09,320 --> 01:36:13,479 Speaker 1: a package. Now sometimes I augment the package. I say, listen, 1544 01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:16,000 Speaker 1: I'll only pay for three musicians out of my package. 1545 01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:17,960 Speaker 1: You need to pay for the other ten twelve if 1546 01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:21,680 Speaker 1: you want big strings, if you want orange. West Wing 1547 01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:24,400 Speaker 1: was the one thing that paid me a package and 1548 01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:29,080 Speaker 1: paid the extra musicians with a large group. But we 1549 01:36:29,200 --> 01:36:32,200 Speaker 1: did that because we wanted that sound. So I've worked 1550 01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:37,360 Speaker 1: on packages from and a package can be anywhere from 1551 01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:42,120 Speaker 1: you know, for a half hour three thousand dollars to 1552 01:36:43,400 --> 01:36:48,000 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars for an hour our drama, go anywhere 1553 01:36:48,040 --> 01:36:53,520 Speaker 1: in there, depending on your credits, your president, your hotness 1554 01:36:53,720 --> 01:36:55,960 Speaker 1: at the moment. You know, if you're the hot young guy, 1555 01:36:56,200 --> 01:36:59,479 Speaker 1: then you can ask for an extra five bucks, you know. 1556 01:36:59,760 --> 01:37:02,840 Speaker 1: But so I've always done from the package, so I 1557 01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:08,400 Speaker 1: pay all the costs, but I've always believed never to 1558 01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:12,559 Speaker 1: scrimp to make an extra thousand or two thousand dollars. 1559 01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:16,479 Speaker 1: Put your best foot forward all the time, because what 1560 01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:19,120 Speaker 1: you only have at the end of the day is 1561 01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:24,320 Speaker 1: your body of work. So I never well, I don't 1562 01:37:24,320 --> 01:37:28,200 Speaker 1: want to spend that for an Obo player. I didn't 1563 01:37:28,240 --> 01:37:31,559 Speaker 1: have that mindset. You also got to realize I came 1564 01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:34,599 Speaker 1: into this so green. I believed I had to work 1565 01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:36,679 Speaker 1: twice as hard to be half as good. I said 1566 01:37:36,760 --> 01:37:39,720 Speaker 1: that earlier, and so I believed I had to put 1567 01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:43,559 Speaker 1: twice as much in to get you know, a half 1568 01:37:43,640 --> 01:37:49,680 Speaker 1: decent uh product. So that's the way it worked for me, 1569 01:37:51,760 --> 01:37:54,760 Speaker 1: and I've done that so long. I can look at 1570 01:37:54,800 --> 01:37:58,120 Speaker 1: a project and once we set the palette, I can 1571 01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:01,719 Speaker 1: I know it within five percent of what I'm gonna 1572 01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:05,720 Speaker 1: earn for the year because I can just ballpark and 1573 01:38:05,800 --> 01:38:08,760 Speaker 1: I'm just so used to doing it right. I have 1574 01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:11,080 Speaker 1: a separate set of books for every episode of every 1575 01:38:11,120 --> 01:38:14,000 Speaker 1: television show I've done. That's the only way I can 1576 01:38:14,120 --> 01:38:16,400 Speaker 1: build it, you know, because you can't admortize it and 1577 01:38:16,479 --> 01:38:18,080 Speaker 1: average it out. So that's the way I do it. 1578 01:38:18,600 --> 01:38:21,320 Speaker 1: And what about now that we've moved to streaming and 1579 01:38:21,479 --> 01:38:24,840 Speaker 1: total buyouts, etcetera. Has that affected your work? You have 1580 01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:28,560 Speaker 1: an opinion on that. Well, you know, one of the 1581 01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:30,880 Speaker 1: things that I didn't realize when I first got into 1582 01:38:30,960 --> 01:38:36,320 Speaker 1: it was that there's no union for composers, which means 1583 01:38:36,600 --> 01:38:44,040 Speaker 1: there's no medical insurance, which means there's no retirement plan. 1584 01:38:44,640 --> 01:38:49,600 Speaker 1: There's nothing. As a composer, you're on your own, so 1585 01:38:49,720 --> 01:38:52,800 Speaker 1: you only the only thing you ever got was what 1586 01:38:52,960 --> 01:38:55,280 Speaker 1: you got as a musician, and of course I was 1587 01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:57,720 Speaker 1: a musician. On all I said, they'd go in the contracts, 1588 01:38:58,280 --> 01:39:01,479 Speaker 1: but what happened is the b M I royalties of 1589 01:39:01,560 --> 01:39:06,719 Speaker 1: the ASCA for royalties became that money's that I could 1590 01:39:07,520 --> 01:39:11,320 Speaker 1: spend for my retirement and for my insurance. And and 1591 01:39:12,479 --> 01:39:14,680 Speaker 1: those moneys are pretty lucrative. If you've got three or 1592 01:39:14,720 --> 01:39:18,400 Speaker 1: four shows running in prime time. You know it's not 1593 01:39:18,640 --> 01:39:23,720 Speaker 1: pocket change. So you know, I was able to put 1594 01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:26,880 Speaker 1: myself in a position where I'll probably outlive my money. 1595 01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:29,880 Speaker 1: I mean where my where my money will outlive me. 1596 01:39:30,360 --> 01:39:33,120 Speaker 1: And I don't have to look at the bill for 1597 01:39:33,200 --> 01:39:36,760 Speaker 1: a price when I want sushi, you know, I can 1598 01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:39,560 Speaker 1: just buy whatever sushi I want and not worry about it. 1599 01:39:39,680 --> 01:39:43,960 Speaker 1: So it's been great to me that way. I've generally 1600 01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:46,240 Speaker 1: lived on the money I made on packages and put 1601 01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:49,880 Speaker 1: the be and my money away. So that's just what 1602 01:39:50,000 --> 01:39:51,439 Speaker 1: I tried to do because to me, that was my 1603 01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:56,519 Speaker 1: retirement account. But now the changing with Netflix, ETCeteras, that's 1604 01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:58,800 Speaker 1: something you're thinking about or the shows you're working on, 1605 01:39:59,640 --> 01:40:03,200 Speaker 1: that model is different, so you're not that concerned. Well, 1606 01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:07,120 Speaker 1: the model is different, still a royalty stream, but it's 1607 01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:10,920 Speaker 1: it's minimal, and were talking to you know, you talked 1608 01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:14,280 Speaker 1: to record people all the time. There's no there's no 1609 01:40:14,439 --> 01:40:19,120 Speaker 1: living to be made in songwriting unless you're writing big rapids. 1610 01:40:19,160 --> 01:40:22,000 Speaker 1: I don't think. I know the songwriter friends of mine 1611 01:40:22,000 --> 01:40:26,840 Speaker 1: are are really struggling. And that's not the case for 1612 01:40:27,120 --> 01:40:31,400 Speaker 1: television because primetime television still pays and reruns and there's 1613 01:40:31,439 --> 01:40:34,080 Speaker 1: reruns all around the world and they all pay royalties. 1614 01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:39,639 Speaker 1: So my income stream from network, from from the network 1615 01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:42,600 Speaker 1: shows I did, it is just out there in the 1616 01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:46,800 Speaker 1: pipeline working the Netflix stuff. They're actually changing it. A 1617 01:40:46,880 --> 01:40:49,479 Speaker 1: good friend of my works there and they're changing it 1618 01:40:49,640 --> 01:40:54,120 Speaker 1: to up the royalty structure for composers. They've done mostly 1619 01:40:54,240 --> 01:41:00,240 Speaker 1: buyouts and the royalty stream is virtually nothing. But now 1620 01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:03,160 Speaker 1: Netflix is stepping up and going, you know what, composers 1621 01:41:03,240 --> 01:41:08,200 Speaker 1: are important. They do make our product better, and so 1622 01:41:08,400 --> 01:41:11,520 Speaker 1: they're upping their game and upping that what they're paying composers, 1623 01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:14,479 Speaker 1: which I think is great, not only in packages, because 1624 01:41:14,520 --> 01:41:17,519 Speaker 1: they always pay good at Netflix of the packages. But 1625 01:41:18,960 --> 01:41:21,600 Speaker 1: I say that without having ever done a netflixing, but 1626 01:41:21,680 --> 01:41:24,160 Speaker 1: I'm aware of all the deals. But now that the 1627 01:41:24,280 --> 01:41:27,519 Speaker 1: royalty structure is going to start to come up, other 1628 01:41:28,479 --> 01:41:30,680 Speaker 1: other streaming services are going to have to look to 1629 01:41:30,760 --> 01:41:33,640 Speaker 1: Netflix and they'll come up to I mean Netflix is 1630 01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:37,120 Speaker 1: they hunt in town guerrilla right now, and you know 1631 01:41:37,280 --> 01:41:41,240 Speaker 1: they have more product than anybody, and they're doing quality products. 1632 01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:47,280 Speaker 1: I have to ask. Your name is Garrett, and then 1633 01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:51,120 Speaker 1: you ultimately got the nickname which stuck Snuffy, and it's 1634 01:41:51,120 --> 01:41:52,920 Speaker 1: all everywhere where you can get that. It's not like 1635 01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:55,160 Speaker 1: a hidden reason why someone's interests. They can look it up. 1636 01:41:55,479 --> 01:42:01,160 Speaker 1: But there's a famous record producer named Snuff Garrett, you know, 1637 01:42:01,479 --> 01:42:03,120 Speaker 1: which it's hard to keep you straight. What do you 1638 01:42:03,160 --> 01:42:07,080 Speaker 1: think about that? That? Well, that's Tommy Garrett and I 1639 01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:09,720 Speaker 1: wish I got all of his royalty checks and I 1640 01:42:09,880 --> 01:42:12,920 Speaker 1: used to say that at being my Uh, Tommy Garrett 1641 01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:16,920 Speaker 1: was h I had one of his albums years and 1642 01:42:17,080 --> 01:42:20,920 Speaker 1: years ago, the fifty thousand Flamenco Guitars of Tommy Garrett. 1643 01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:24,680 Speaker 1: You know, he produced all different kinds of stuff and 1644 01:42:26,120 --> 01:42:29,120 Speaker 1: produced I think, every which way but loose. I mean, 1645 01:42:29,240 --> 01:42:33,840 Speaker 1: he just was so in the circuit, so but in 1646 01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:36,679 Speaker 1: a different genre than I was in in rock and roll. 1647 01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:41,040 Speaker 1: I got the name the same way he got. The 1648 01:42:41,120 --> 01:42:44,120 Speaker 1: biggest manufacturer of snuff in the South is a company 1649 01:42:44,200 --> 01:42:47,679 Speaker 1: called Levi Garrett and Son. My mom's maiden name was Garrett, 1650 01:42:47,720 --> 01:42:51,160 Speaker 1: so my grandfather was Garrett. Uh. They were both Garretts, 1651 01:42:51,400 --> 01:42:53,960 Speaker 1: and they were nicknamed Levi or Snuffy when they were 1652 01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:57,240 Speaker 1: growing up. I got it when I was five at 1653 01:42:57,280 --> 01:43:01,080 Speaker 1: a co educational camp pair send me to every year 1654 01:43:01,240 --> 01:43:04,000 Speaker 1: and during the summer as I was Snuffy, and you know, 1655 01:43:04,160 --> 01:43:07,320 Speaker 1: during the school year, I was Garrett. And then music 1656 01:43:07,400 --> 01:43:09,840 Speaker 1: took over the summers in my life, so I just 1657 01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:12,760 Speaker 1: stuck with Snuffy. Somebody calls me Garrett, I know they're 1658 01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:15,720 Speaker 1: from high school or before, so that's kind of the 1659 01:43:15,760 --> 01:43:17,920 Speaker 1: way I gage it. So do you ever meet Snuff Garrett? 1660 01:43:18,400 --> 01:43:21,840 Speaker 1: I never did. I never did. He's past now, but 1661 01:43:23,080 --> 01:43:27,559 Speaker 1: uh did you know? But you know, first I used 1662 01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:30,080 Speaker 1: to confuse you. You see the credits back at thirty something. 1663 01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:32,720 Speaker 1: You know, you couldn't think there would be two Snuffies. 1664 01:43:33,240 --> 01:43:35,400 Speaker 1: So how much longer are you going to do this 1665 01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:39,240 Speaker 1: and anything in the horizon you would like to achieve 1666 01:43:39,439 --> 01:43:44,080 Speaker 1: or do before you leave this planet. Yeah, we've been 1667 01:43:44,160 --> 01:43:51,280 Speaker 1: kicking around during COVID this idea of myself, a friend 1668 01:43:51,320 --> 01:43:56,880 Speaker 1: of mine, one big actor, and one huge rock star, 1669 01:43:56,960 --> 01:43:59,960 Speaker 1: and I really I can't talk about it, but it's 1670 01:44:00,160 --> 01:44:03,800 Speaker 1: really interesting thing with four of us up front. Uh, 1671 01:44:04,439 --> 01:44:09,240 Speaker 1: everybody is a singer, a songwriter, and you know, and 1672 01:44:09,400 --> 01:44:12,439 Speaker 1: every some people play drums and some people play guitar, 1673 01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:15,120 Speaker 1: and we would switch around, and we've been kicking this 1674 01:44:15,280 --> 01:44:18,080 Speaker 1: idea around and throwing some songs around. I'm also going 1675 01:44:18,120 --> 01:44:22,120 Speaker 1: to do another Snuffy Walden album. I did one in 1676 01:44:22,280 --> 01:44:25,240 Speaker 1: two thousand, two thousand one for Windham Hill, but I 1677 01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:28,240 Speaker 1: based it on my television work and I want to 1678 01:44:28,360 --> 01:44:31,800 Speaker 1: do an electric guitar album. So what we're looking at 1679 01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:35,080 Speaker 1: Chris Kimsey, the guy who produced my original record, who 1680 01:44:35,160 --> 01:44:38,400 Speaker 1: produced the Stones and all these other people. Uh, Chris, 1681 01:44:38,520 --> 01:44:41,240 Speaker 1: and I want to do it. I'm just gonna go 1682 01:44:41,400 --> 01:44:43,519 Speaker 1: to London and cut half the record there with some 1683 01:44:43,800 --> 01:44:46,360 Speaker 1: guys he knows, and go to Nashville and go to 1684 01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:50,519 Speaker 1: Frampton Studio because Peter is a friend, and and and 1685 01:44:50,680 --> 01:44:53,759 Speaker 1: record the other half there and get an English flavor 1686 01:44:53,840 --> 01:44:58,160 Speaker 1: and get an American flavor, and you do it. A 1687 01:44:58,280 --> 01:45:01,640 Speaker 1: vanity project you have records for not gonna sell. Now, 1688 01:45:01,760 --> 01:45:05,320 Speaker 1: I'll fund it. I just want to book end what 1689 01:45:05,479 --> 01:45:09,400 Speaker 1: I've done. I don't want to just kind of fade 1690 01:45:09,439 --> 01:45:12,400 Speaker 1: away like all that sold guitar players do. I really 1691 01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:17,760 Speaker 1: want to have this is my ending thing that that 1692 01:45:17,880 --> 01:45:20,799 Speaker 1: doesn't mean I'm not going to compose. I mean, honestly, 1693 01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:23,800 Speaker 1: with what's going on in my family, in the last 1694 01:45:24,760 --> 01:45:30,200 Speaker 1: few years, I have not pursued work. If anything, I've 1695 01:45:30,400 --> 01:45:33,280 Speaker 1: stepped away from it. The last thing I did, uh 1696 01:45:33,680 --> 01:45:36,360 Speaker 1: that was fresh, was a West Wing special we did 1697 01:45:37,520 --> 01:45:41,040 Speaker 1: when when Biden, you know, we were getting out the 1698 01:45:41,080 --> 01:45:45,800 Speaker 1: boat from Biden. That was fun, but that was in 1699 01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:49,519 Speaker 1: Now it's been almost a year since then, and now 1700 01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:52,840 Speaker 1: that things are changing around here and the dynamic is changing. 1701 01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:56,439 Speaker 1: H I want to play, but I want to do 1702 01:45:56,520 --> 01:45:59,439 Speaker 1: projects I love to do. I just want to do 1703 01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:03,479 Speaker 1: things that I have passionate about, or I gotta love 1704 01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:06,680 Speaker 1: the project, I gotta love the people, or I've got 1705 01:46:06,760 --> 01:46:08,800 Speaker 1: to love the money. And it's got to be two 1706 01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:11,080 Speaker 1: of those. So if I love the people and love 1707 01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:13,200 Speaker 1: the project, I'll do it for no money. I don't care. 1708 01:46:13,720 --> 01:46:19,120 Speaker 1: But uh, it's got to fit in, you know, if 1709 01:46:19,200 --> 01:46:21,120 Speaker 1: that whole thing. The road in front of me is 1710 01:46:21,120 --> 01:46:24,200 Speaker 1: a lot shorter than the road behind me. And what 1711 01:46:24,320 --> 01:46:26,160 Speaker 1: do I want to spend the next ten years of 1712 01:46:26,200 --> 01:46:28,479 Speaker 1: my playing on till I'm eight one? What do I 1713 01:46:28,520 --> 01:46:31,479 Speaker 1: want to do? So? I want to do what fun? 1714 01:46:31,640 --> 01:46:36,320 Speaker 1: I want to perform live more. Uh. You know, we 1715 01:46:36,800 --> 01:46:39,920 Speaker 1: talked a little about the documentary it's coming out. I 1716 01:46:40,680 --> 01:46:43,880 Speaker 1: hope that gets to people in recovery. That's my goal 1717 01:46:44,040 --> 01:46:47,439 Speaker 1: for that. That's why I did it. When they asked me, 1718 01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:50,840 Speaker 1: I said I wouldn't do it, And when they finally said, 1719 01:46:50,840 --> 01:46:53,160 Speaker 1: you might really be able to help somebody understand that 1720 01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:56,080 Speaker 1: there is a life after you stop drinking. You can 1721 01:46:56,200 --> 01:46:59,200 Speaker 1: have a whole another life. And from that point of view, 1722 01:46:59,280 --> 01:47:02,160 Speaker 1: that's the point of view that I believed him when 1723 01:47:02,160 --> 01:47:05,479 Speaker 1: I told the story, and you know, that's just my story, 1724 01:47:06,320 --> 01:47:08,479 Speaker 1: It's what I got it's the only one I got. 1725 01:47:08,600 --> 01:47:11,240 Speaker 1: So what am I gonna do go forward? I don't know. 1726 01:47:11,680 --> 01:47:15,720 Speaker 1: Bring me something, tell me something you think's exciting. Uh. 1727 01:47:16,320 --> 01:47:20,000 Speaker 1: If I'd love to do an electric guitar score like 1728 01:47:20,160 --> 01:47:22,240 Speaker 1: I did with Stephen King's with Stand, I mean that 1729 01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:25,080 Speaker 1: was so much fun for me, and yet electric guitar 1730 01:47:25,160 --> 01:47:30,320 Speaker 1: scores don't fit very well in television drama. You can 1731 01:47:30,400 --> 01:47:34,040 Speaker 1: use it as a color, but not as a main voice. 1732 01:47:34,360 --> 01:47:36,400 Speaker 1: So I'd love to do that, but it would take 1733 01:47:36,439 --> 01:47:42,959 Speaker 1: the right the right piece of material for that to work. Well. Snuffy, 1734 01:47:43,560 --> 01:47:45,560 Speaker 1: you tell a good story. You tell a story that 1735 01:47:46,400 --> 01:47:49,479 Speaker 1: tell a story that's not been told by many, both 1736 01:47:49,520 --> 01:47:52,920 Speaker 1: the recovery in the second life and going from a hardcore, 1737 01:47:53,080 --> 01:47:57,200 Speaker 1: hard party and rocker to a guy very successfully scoring 1738 01:47:57,240 --> 01:48:01,200 Speaker 1: television in his own unique, identifiable So I want to 1739 01:48:01,240 --> 01:48:04,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time, Bob. It's 1740 01:48:04,160 --> 01:48:06,760 Speaker 1: such a pleasure. I was just tickled when who we 1741 01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:10,240 Speaker 1: decided to put this year. Thank you so much. Until 1742 01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:34,360 Speaker 1: next time. This is Bob left six h