WEBVTT - Killer Mom Trial, Prosecution Closing Arguments:  Lindsay Clancy Killed Her Kids To End Her Own Misery 

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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, folks. It is Thursday, August 27th. The prosecution

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<v Speaker 1>has now given its closing argument in the Lindsay Clancy

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<v Speaker 1>triple murder trial. And they wrapped up by playing on morality.

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<v Speaker 1>And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to start with the end, the last sentence.

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<v Speaker 1>I couldn't even tell Robes that she was wrapping up.

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<v Speaker 1>Why did she want to go with that line about,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, to a moral certainty she is guilty? What

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<v Speaker 1>did that mean?

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<v Speaker 2>She's trying to play on the juror's individual sense of

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<v Speaker 2>right and wrong and emphasizing that Lindsay Clancy knew right

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<v Speaker 2>from wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, it's strange.

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<v Speaker 2>She didn't talk about legally responsible, but morally responsible.

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<v Speaker 1>We almost had a mistrial because of this type of

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<v Speaker 1>stuff coming up.

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<v Speaker 2>She went for it again, though, in her closing arguments.

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<v Speaker 2>And right before she said that, she told the jurors.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if she's trying to continually, because she

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<v Speaker 2>made a direct reference to Andrea Yates, but if she's

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<v Speaker 2>continually trying to make the comparison between Andrea Yates and

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<v Speaker 2>And Lindsay Clancy by saying, because we know Andrea Yates lovingly,

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<v Speaker 2>you could say, put her children's... bodies on the bed

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<v Speaker 2>and had the baby or the little six month old

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<v Speaker 2>in one of the children's arms and she lovingly kind

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<v Speaker 2>of displayed their bodies and I think many people remember that.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't. Is she expecting the jurors to remember that?

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<v Speaker 2>I think she is absolutely drawing a stark comparison because

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<v Speaker 2>she described what Lindsay Clancy did as discarding her children

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<v Speaker 2>on the basement floor like broken toys because she was

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<v Speaker 2>done playing the game. That is a direct contrast to

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<v Speaker 2>what we know of Andrea Yates and what she did

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<v Speaker 2>after she drowned her children.

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<v Speaker 1>That comparison is something I wouldn't have remembered that myself

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<v Speaker 1>and her making this comparison, but Robes, that was the moment.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is a major no, no, you don't interrupt

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<v Speaker 1>closing argument of the opposing attorney judges. I have seen

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely rip into other attorneys. Shut up. This is a

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<v Speaker 1>closing argument. This ain't your time to object anything. However, Robes,

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<v Speaker 1>that was a little disturbance.

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<v Speaker 2>Kevin Reddington objected when she started talking about Andrea Yates.

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<v Speaker 2>And she said Andrea Yates, after she was hearing voices

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<v Speaker 2>and she continually heard voices before she ended up killing

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<v Speaker 2>her kids, she.

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<v Speaker 3>Committed herself five times.

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<v Speaker 2>She tried to kill herself twice. So again, I think

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<v Speaker 2>she is concerned that the jury is going to liken

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<v Speaker 2>Lindsay Clancy.

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<v Speaker 3>to Andrea.

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<v Speaker 2>Yates and is trying to draw a contrast between the

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<v Speaker 2>two women to make sure that jurors don't feel the

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<v Speaker 2>same way about her that they may feel about Andrea Yates.

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<v Speaker 1>Forgive me for this lack of, this is not an

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<v Speaker 1>eloquent way to say it. Is she really telling this jury? No,

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<v Speaker 1>this is what crazy looks like when you kill your kids.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's not what Lindsay Clancy... Right?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>A crazy woman who loves her kids... Does this.

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<v Speaker 2>She's just saying Lindsay Clancy is a selfish woman who

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<v Speaker 2>only cared about herself.

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<v Speaker 1>She's using Andrea Yates as the example to compare her to. Yes. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>that is striking. But as we record, folks, the jury

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<v Speaker 1>has the case. We should tell you that now. We're

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<v Speaker 1>keeping an eye on this, but we are on verdict

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<v Speaker 1>watch as we speak. This... That was made up of

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<v Speaker 1>18 robes is now officially down to 12. And you

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<v Speaker 1>told me before it was 12 women. And you can

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<v Speaker 1>explain why they do this and why they need so

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<v Speaker 1>many jurors. But we knew what the original breakdown was.

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<v Speaker 1>But now we know the breakdown of the folks who

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<v Speaker 1>are deciding her fate.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right.

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<v Speaker 2>So initially, 18 jurors, and they sat through all five

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<v Speaker 2>weeks of this gutting testimony. There were 12 women and

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<v Speaker 2>six men. And then after closing arguments, we literally saw

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<v Speaker 2>it was almost like a lottery, like they're picking lottery balls.

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<v Speaker 1>Out of a box.

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<v Speaker 2>They're literally picking juror numbers out of a box to

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<v Speaker 2>officially seat the 12 that will deliberate on and decide

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<v Speaker 2>Lindsay Clancy's fate. And that breakdown is now nine women

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<v Speaker 2>and three men.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think?

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<v Speaker 2>I said earlier that I felt like she might be

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<v Speaker 2>given a better, I shouldn't say better, but there might

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<v Speaker 2>be more sympathy from a man because he wouldn't know

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<v Speaker 2>what it's like to be a mom. He wouldn't know

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<v Speaker 2>what it's like to have all those hormones raging through him.

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<v Speaker 2>He might not He might give her the benefit of

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<v Speaker 2>the doubt, whereas a woman, if she has had children,

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<v Speaker 2>and especially if she had any sort of postpartum depression

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<v Speaker 2>and thought, well, I managed it, I was fine, I

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<v Speaker 2>just would think a potentially harsher judge or juror would

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<v Speaker 2>be a woman who has kids.

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<v Speaker 1>Babe, you've been talking about this for five weeks. You

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<v Speaker 1>said nobody is judging another woman harsher than another woman.

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<v Speaker 2>It's true, and if you look at the online back

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<v Speaker 2>and forth debate that's going on, the people who are

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<v Speaker 2>writing op-eds and making comments about how they think she

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<v Speaker 2>should go to prison for the rest of her life,

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<v Speaker 2>that she has to pay for her crime, I've only

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<v Speaker 2>seen women.

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<v Speaker 3>I haven't seen men making comments like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, but I also didn't see men out there in

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<v Speaker 1>pink shirts. That's the other side of it. Are those

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<v Speaker 1>nine women going to be more so in line with

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<v Speaker 1>the ones out there in pink supporting her or the

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<v Speaker 1>folks online saying, ain't no way?

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<v Speaker 3>Because emotion was so much a part of this trial.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's going to be, I really do think

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to depend on the lens that they view

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<v Speaker 2>this evidence through. And I think it's so deeply personal.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think it goes back to, do any of

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<v Speaker 2>these women have friends, mothers, sisters, who if even they

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<v Speaker 2>haven't gone through it, they've seen a woman suffer before?

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<v Speaker 2>they've seen a woman pull through or whatever, it just,

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<v Speaker 2>whatever their personal experience in their circle, in their bubble,

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<v Speaker 2>I think will absolutely impact.

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<v Speaker 3>Which expert they believe, which.

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<v Speaker 2>Expert seemed like, seemed more credible to them because they'll

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<v Speaker 2>see it through their experience. That's the problem with this case.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not, did she do it or didn't she do it?

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<v Speaker 2>what does the evidence prove? No, this is really which

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<v Speaker 2>expert you believe more and for you not to bring

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<v Speaker 2>in your personal experience would be impossible, I think.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't, maybe you just, I don't know if the

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<v Speaker 1>evidence proves she was one way or another criminally responsible.

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<v Speaker 1>So I need to figure out which one of these

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<v Speaker 1>guys I like better, which one of these guys I

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<v Speaker 1>think is most credible. Robes, the evidence they keep pointing

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<v Speaker 1>to is more of a collection of Well, yeah, that's possible. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>she did that, so it could mean this. Well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>she made the phone call, so I guess it could

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<v Speaker 1>mean she was a... Robes, everything is, it could, it could. Well, maybe.

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<v Speaker 1>Or that makes sense. I could see that. Well, that's likely.

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<v Speaker 1>But proof? Robes, you just said it. Is this really?

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<v Speaker 1>Are they really going to sit in there and go,

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<v Speaker 1>I like this guy better than that guy?

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<v Speaker 2>And I, well, yes, I think, I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>they're going to say it like that, but that's probably

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<v Speaker 2>what's going in there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Going through their heads that.

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<v Speaker 2>They believed someone more than the other, or they think

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<v Speaker 2>someone has more credibility than the other. I think the

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<v Speaker 2>one thing, look, the, the prosecutor definitely, I think chose

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<v Speaker 2>a dangerous path. I mean, she really vilified Lindsay Clancy

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<v Speaker 2>and as she's vilifying Lindsay Clancy, you actually can see

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<v Speaker 2>her And she's not making some big scene about it.

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<v Speaker 2>She's quietly wiping tears. She's turning her head. She's taking

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<v Speaker 2>her hands to her face and literally clearing her face

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<v Speaker 2>of tears when she starts being thrown under the bus

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<v Speaker 2>by the prosecutor. That is hard not to be impacted by,

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<v Speaker 2>to see this woman in a wheelchair crying softly and

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<v Speaker 2>quietly as her character is being completely maligned by this prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 1>Is she doing that because she knew what she's hearing

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<v Speaker 1>is correct? Is she doing that because she knows right

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<v Speaker 1>from wrong? Is she doing that because she knows she

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<v Speaker 1>did wrong? I don't know how anybody reads this, Rose,

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<v Speaker 1>but this was a theme of the closing argument. She

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<v Speaker 1>went a little over 50 minutes. They went about the

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<v Speaker 1>same amount of time.

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<v Speaker 2>They did.

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<v Speaker 1>In their closings. But Robe's theme for her was this

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<v Speaker 1>is a woman who knew what she was doing, she

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<v Speaker 1>was calculated in what she was doing, and Robe, so

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<v Speaker 1>much of what she talked about goes to the timing.

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<v Speaker 1>She spent so much time on the timing of the killings.

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<v Speaker 1>How long she went down there, which kid she killed first,

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<v Speaker 1>and how long the kids were strangled. She spent a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of time, Robe, suggesting that at least the story

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<v Speaker 1>she was putting together suggests that this was a woman

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<v Speaker 1>who was in complete control.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and who was cruel and vicious and callous and

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<v Speaker 2>indifferent to her children's suffering. That's where I have a little, well,

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<v Speaker 2>not a little, I have a lot of difficulty agreeing

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<v Speaker 2>with her on that. The picture she painted of this

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<v Speaker 2>woman who had every resource available to her, she really

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<v Speaker 2>played on that for any jury. She had a nanny.

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<v Speaker 2>She had a mom in her beck and call. She

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<v Speaker 2>had a country.

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<v Speaker 3>Club to go off to.

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<v Speaker 2>She had doctors and nurses and a loving husband. And

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<v Speaker 2>she was surrounded with people who supported her and loved

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<v Speaker 2>her and wanted the best for her.

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<v Speaker 3>And what did she do to them? She lied.

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<v Speaker 2>She told them she was getting better. She told them

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<v Speaker 2>she was sleeping. She defied her doctor's orders. And as

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<v Speaker 2>a nurse, she should know better. She chose what medicines

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<v Speaker 2>to take and how much to take. She didn't follow

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<v Speaker 2>instructions because she wanted to do it her way. The

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<v Speaker 2>picture they're painting of this woman is not the woman

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<v Speaker 2>who was described by all the people.

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<v Speaker 3>Who know her, including her ex-husband.

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<v Speaker 2>So That's where it feels like it's a stretch, and

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<v Speaker 2>it feels like she's telling me to believe something that

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<v Speaker 2>I actually, after having seen and heard everything, don't believe

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<v Speaker 2>to be true.

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<v Speaker 1>But was she taking the risk, Robes, because you got

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<v Speaker 1>nine women on this jury now? Is she taking the

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<v Speaker 1>risk that when you tell women, presumably some mothers on

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<v Speaker 1>this jury, that this woman had every resource... You didn't have.

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<v Speaker 3>She's playing on that for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>She had a nanny, great health care. Look at all

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<v Speaker 1>these doctors. She had all this stuff you don't have.

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<v Speaker 1>You managed your life just fine, didn't you? Is that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>But you say that's a risk.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Risky because what the picture she is painting of Lindsay

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<v Speaker 2>Clancy is not a is not the Lindsay Clancy I

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<v Speaker 2>feel like was described by everyone who knows her. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's like, was she putting on this great ruse for

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<v Speaker 2>most of her life?

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<v Speaker 3>For me, it was hard. I understand why she said

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<v Speaker 3>what she said.

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<v Speaker 2>The only thing to me that really landed that I

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<v Speaker 2>would think would give jurors a pause, would give me pause,

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<v Speaker 2>is the idea of just, yes, the timing and how

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<v Speaker 2>deliberate she was, how much she planned it, how calculated

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<v Speaker 2>that all was, the calling to CVS ahead of time

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<v Speaker 2>to make sure it was in stock, to make sure

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<v Speaker 2>her husband would stay there long enough. You could also

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<v Speaker 2>just look at it as a desperate woman who.

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<v Speaker 3>Had a plan.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, if I'm curious, if you don't believe that she

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<v Speaker 2>heard a voice commanding her to do it, could she

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<v Speaker 2>still be so mentally unstable.

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<v Speaker 3>That she still isn't criminally responsible?

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<v Speaker 2>Like, how important is it that this voice told her

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<v Speaker 2>to do it? That's where I'm a little bit confused

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't know what to think about that. And

0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.230
<v Speaker 2>then you've got the prosecution telling the jury that They

0:12:20.270 --> 0:12:23.140
<v Speaker 2>don't believe this voice thing, that it was made up

0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.960
<v Speaker 2>after the fact, that beforehand she had never heard a voice,

0:12:27.220 --> 0:12:28.760
<v Speaker 2>afterwards she never heard a voice, and how.

0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:32.420
<v Speaker 3>That's so unusual, and this is a convenient.

0:12:32.900 --> 0:12:37.690
<v Speaker 2>After-the-murderers explanation of why she did it. Some of that

0:12:37.870 --> 0:12:39.949
<v Speaker 2>could make a little sense to me, and I do

0:12:40.010 --> 0:12:43.770
<v Speaker 2>question a little bit, but I... I don't know.

0:12:43.870 --> 0:12:44.430
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

0:12:44.450 --> 0:12:47.550
<v Speaker 1>But, babe, you just made, I would love, and where

0:12:47.580 --> 0:12:50.170
<v Speaker 1>were we watching the... Well, the case out in Vegas

0:12:50.210 --> 0:12:50.750
<v Speaker 1>right now with the.

0:12:52.470 --> 0:12:53.450
<v Speaker 3>Tupac trial.

0:12:53.770 --> 0:12:57.280
<v Speaker 1>They're allowed. That jury is allowed to ask questions. I

0:12:57.290 --> 0:13:00.050
<v Speaker 1>would have loved to have been able for this jury

0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.240
<v Speaker 1>to ask questions. Are you really telling me? Rose, remember

0:13:03.260 --> 0:13:06.340
<v Speaker 1>the breakdown of if the voice was internal or external?

0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.860
<v Speaker 1>Even that, I don't know. So you're telling me if

0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.640
<v Speaker 1>it came from the outside, she's in psychosis. But inside,

0:13:13.700 --> 0:13:17.010
<v Speaker 1>it's just her and vice versa. So, Robes, that's the thing.

0:13:17.990 --> 0:13:19.670
<v Speaker 1>Maybe this jury has a better handle on it than

0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 1>we do, but the arguments that I'm hearing, Robes, and

0:13:22.740 --> 0:13:27.200
<v Speaker 1>the ones they keep saying, it really does break down to,

0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.660
<v Speaker 1>and maybe that's why Reddington spent so much time discrediting,

0:13:30.900 --> 0:13:33.059
<v Speaker 1>even in his closing. Yeah, this guy, he's looking up

0:13:33.100 --> 0:13:34.500
<v Speaker 1>at the sky. Yeah, that guy doesn't know what he's

0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.949
<v Speaker 1>talking about. These guys are a mess. He was kind

0:13:36.970 --> 0:13:40.470
<v Speaker 1>of just dismissive of them, like literally dismissed. They're not

0:13:40.510 --> 0:13:40.950
<v Speaker 1>even relevant.

0:13:41.460 --> 0:13:43.860
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I do think that was incredibly effective because

0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.610
<v Speaker 2>that is the crux of this case because just as

0:13:47.850 --> 0:13:51.390
<v Speaker 2>I was asking this question about how important is this

0:13:51.490 --> 0:13:56.030
<v Speaker 2>voice thing to her overall mental wellness and did she

0:13:56.130 --> 0:13:58.429
<v Speaker 2>need to hear a voice for her to not be

0:13:58.490 --> 0:14:02.490
<v Speaker 2>responsible criminally for the crimes? Could she just still not

0:14:02.530 --> 0:14:06.520
<v Speaker 2>be responsible because she was so mentally ill? How important

0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:08.679
<v Speaker 2>was this voice to the whole thing?

0:14:09.260 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 3>And to hear.

0:14:10.820 --> 0:14:12.800
<v Speaker 2>To hear the experts get up on the stand and

0:14:13.059 --> 0:14:16.230
<v Speaker 2>all disagree with each other and say different things is

0:14:16.809 --> 0:14:17.750
<v Speaker 2>super confusing.

0:14:18.190 --> 0:14:19.190
<v Speaker 3>And I feel like that.

0:14:19.130 --> 0:14:23.950
<v Speaker 2>Does help the defense because the point being, nobody knows.

0:14:24.210 --> 0:14:28.530
<v Speaker 2>Like what psychiatrist can tell me or tell a juror

0:14:29.110 --> 0:14:33.120
<v Speaker 2>what makes somebody psychotic or in a state of psychosis

0:14:33.580 --> 0:14:35.980
<v Speaker 2>based on if the voice.

0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.420
<v Speaker 3>Is from the inside or the outside, if it's often,

0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.320
<v Speaker 3>if it's once, if it's all the time. Do they

0:14:41.420 --> 0:14:44.090
<v Speaker 3>even really know? That's my question.

0:14:44.110 --> 0:14:48.230
<v Speaker 1>Okay. You just hit it, baby. They just proved they

0:14:48.290 --> 0:14:50.390
<v Speaker 1>don't know. So what am I supposed to do as

0:14:50.430 --> 0:14:53.410
<v Speaker 1>a jury? They don't know.

0:14:54.530 --> 0:14:55.670
<v Speaker 3>I believe that they don't know.

0:14:55.810 --> 0:14:57.970
<v Speaker 1>So what are we supposed to do with Lindsay Clancy?

0:14:59.490 --> 0:15:03.030
<v Speaker 2>I think you have to go with your gut. I

0:15:03.070 --> 0:15:07.150
<v Speaker 2>think really this is an emotional trial. It's like none

0:15:07.190 --> 0:15:10.320
<v Speaker 2>I've ever seen before. I guess Andrea Yates is the

0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.120
<v Speaker 2>only other trial like this that you could point to

0:15:13.180 --> 0:15:17.040
<v Speaker 2>because she's not denying that she did it.

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:18.740
<v Speaker 3>That's the problem.

0:15:18.980 --> 0:15:22.500
<v Speaker 1>But that first jury put her in prison. A second

0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:24.600
<v Speaker 1>jury came back and said she was not guilty by

0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:29.640
<v Speaker 1>reason of insanity. I have no idea. What's about to

0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.500
<v Speaker 1>happen in this case. But stay here, folks. We are

0:15:32.540 --> 0:15:36.230
<v Speaker 1>going to share with you some quotes from the prosecutor

0:15:36.250 --> 0:15:38.810
<v Speaker 1>during the closing argument and robes. We're going to start

0:15:38.850 --> 0:15:43.740
<v Speaker 1>with after this break. The quote from the prosecutor that

0:15:43.780 --> 0:15:47.620
<v Speaker 1>make it seems like she's watching a different case than

0:15:47.660 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 1>the rest of America. We continue here on Amy and

0:15:59.700 --> 0:16:02.880
<v Speaker 1>TJ as the jury continues to deliberate. We're recording this

0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.500
<v Speaker 1>as the jury has been deliberating about an hour and

0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.580
<v Speaker 1>a half at least. I suppose the Lindsay Clancy, I

0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:10.960
<v Speaker 1>am so close to Andrea Yates, Andrea Yates every time,

0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:12.460
<v Speaker 1>but you understand why.

0:16:12.700 --> 0:16:13.600
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely.

0:16:13.940 --> 0:16:16.660
<v Speaker 1>Robes, so much of this has been about, every single

0:16:16.700 --> 0:16:18.740
<v Speaker 1>time we've done anything having to do with Lindsay Clancy,

0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:20.840
<v Speaker 1>we always say, you know what, no matter what, this

0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.460
<v Speaker 1>has put a focus on the lack of care for

0:16:24.540 --> 0:16:29.140
<v Speaker 1>women after they have babies, in particular their mental health. Robes,

0:16:30.500 --> 0:16:33.780
<v Speaker 1>this case is not about our mental health system, so

0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.170
<v Speaker 1>says the prosecutor in the closing statement. This case is

0:16:37.210 --> 0:16:39.610
<v Speaker 1>not about our mental health system or how it treats women.

0:16:40.290 --> 0:16:44.510
<v Speaker 1>That's a distraction to get you angry and passionate about

0:16:44.550 --> 0:16:47.770
<v Speaker 1>an issue, but that's not the issue on trial here.

0:16:48.750 --> 0:16:54.160
<v Speaker 1>I kind of get it, but that seemed so flippant

0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:59.320
<v Speaker 1>and dismissive. We said at the beginning, Robes, when she started,

0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.800
<v Speaker 1>all you had to say was, yeah, this has highlighted

0:17:02.860 --> 0:17:07.199
<v Speaker 1>some real issues and flaws. And even we need to

0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:11.459
<v Speaker 1>update some of the textbooks. But that's on the side

0:17:11.570 --> 0:17:14.070
<v Speaker 1>and not what you have to decide here. Robes, she

0:17:14.170 --> 0:17:16.010
<v Speaker 1>said it in such a way, it turned me off.

0:17:16.369 --> 0:17:21.450
<v Speaker 2>She invalidated a lot of what many women have said

0:17:21.510 --> 0:17:25.350
<v Speaker 2>they've experienced. And she could have still validated those real

0:17:25.430 --> 0:17:30.010
<v Speaker 2>issues and the real lack of understanding and resources that

0:17:30.050 --> 0:17:33.280
<v Speaker 2>have been given to women's mental health, especially postpartum. She

0:17:33.300 --> 0:17:35.040
<v Speaker 2>could have acknowledged all of that. And if any of

0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.620
<v Speaker 2>those women, see, they don't know. And I don't know

0:17:37.740 --> 0:17:39.900
<v Speaker 2>the voir dire. I don't know the questions.

0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:41.840
<v Speaker 3>They were asked. I don't know how these jurors were vetted.

0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:46.030
<v Speaker 2>But the idea that nine women who are now going

0:17:46.070 --> 0:17:49.359
<v Speaker 2>to make this decision among the 12th If any of

0:17:49.420 --> 0:17:52.379
<v Speaker 2>them have had an experience or know or loved somebody

0:17:52.420 --> 0:17:55.010
<v Speaker 2>who had an experience, she invalidated it.

0:17:56.260 --> 0:17:58.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, she can feel that. I just don't know

0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:02.810
<v Speaker 1>how many... That's just... It doesn't seem like... Yes, our

0:18:02.869 --> 0:18:05.330
<v Speaker 1>mental health system is on trial here. It is.

0:18:05.770 --> 0:18:08.389
<v Speaker 2>And so here's the problem. Well, it might not be

0:18:08.410 --> 0:18:10.810
<v Speaker 2>a problem, but here was the issue, and she tried

0:18:10.830 --> 0:18:13.230
<v Speaker 2>to answer it. I'm curious about how you think she

0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.540
<v Speaker 2>answered it. So if it wasn't the mental health industry...

0:18:16.710 --> 0:18:19.250
<v Speaker 2>If it wasn't her doctors failing her, if it wasn't

0:18:19.270 --> 0:18:21.629
<v Speaker 2>the system failing her, if it wasn't her family and

0:18:21.670 --> 0:18:27.479
<v Speaker 2>friends failing her, then why didn't Lindsay Clancy kill her kids?

0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:34.040
<v Speaker 3>So the prosecutor, Jennifer Sprague, answered it for the jury.

0:18:34.580 --> 0:18:37.000
<v Speaker 3>And I don't know if it worked.

0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.230
<v Speaker 2>She said Lindsay Clancy killed her kids because she was upset,

0:18:41.970 --> 0:18:45.810
<v Speaker 2>because she was done, because she wanted to end her life.

0:18:46.220 --> 0:18:47.020
<v Speaker 3>Her misery.

0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:52.440
<v Speaker 2>She said the kids were keeping her from ending her misery,

0:18:52.550 --> 0:18:57.310
<v Speaker 2>so she had to remove them. She said she had

0:18:57.350 --> 0:19:01.270
<v Speaker 2>to remove the protective factor. I didn't really, the protective

0:19:01.310 --> 0:19:03.290
<v Speaker 2>factor thing seems strange to me.

0:19:03.890 --> 0:19:09.469
<v Speaker 1>She was, the only reason she was still alive is

0:19:09.490 --> 0:19:12.330
<v Speaker 1>because she had to protect her kids. So if you

0:19:12.369 --> 0:19:13.530
<v Speaker 1>no longer have to protect your kids.

0:19:13.550 --> 0:19:13.889
<v Speaker 2>There you go.

0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.980
<v Speaker 1>She's saying she needed permission to kill herself. And the

0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:20.590
<v Speaker 1>only way she could get permission was to eliminate the

0:19:20.740 --> 0:19:22.949
<v Speaker 1>only reason she was still on Earth. And that was

0:19:22.990 --> 0:19:27.010
<v Speaker 1>the kids. I don't know, baby. That sounds like mental

0:19:27.050 --> 0:19:29.730
<v Speaker 1>illness to me, but she's suggesting this woman who did

0:19:29.790 --> 0:19:33.910
<v Speaker 1>have mental illness, that mental illness was not the cause

0:19:33.970 --> 0:19:34.910
<v Speaker 1>of her doing this.

0:19:35.290 --> 0:19:37.550
<v Speaker 2>She made it very clear, the prosecutor, that it was

0:19:37.630 --> 0:19:42.790
<v Speaker 2>a choice and that Lindsay Clancy made a lucid, sane choice.

0:19:42.850 --> 0:19:47.050
<v Speaker 2>But to your point, If you believe your only choice

0:19:48.180 --> 0:19:53.830
<v Speaker 2>to ending your misery is to kill your kids, that

0:19:53.869 --> 0:19:55.860
<v Speaker 2>doesn't sound like a sane person.

0:19:55.910 --> 0:19:57.990
<v Speaker 1>Here you go. Defense wants you to believe. So this

0:19:58.040 --> 0:19:59.740
<v Speaker 1>is I'm quoting her again. Defense wants you to believe

0:19:59.780 --> 0:20:02.440
<v Speaker 1>this woman is begging for help. She was asking for help,

0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.000
<v Speaker 1>but she wanted to get better on her own terms.

0:20:05.780 --> 0:20:09.100
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of dismissive of she's put the onus completely

0:20:09.180 --> 0:20:11.340
<v Speaker 1>on her. It almost sounds like, yeah, I agree she

0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:12.900
<v Speaker 1>was mentally ill, but it's her fault she was.

0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.020
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because she refused to get better because she was

0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:17.960
<v Speaker 2>a trained nurse and she knew better.

0:20:18.100 --> 0:20:20.830
<v Speaker 3>I don't buy that. I don't buy that.

0:20:21.690 --> 0:20:27.090
<v Speaker 2>Look, if anyone listening has been in a hospital and

0:20:27.130 --> 0:20:31.369
<v Speaker 2>has been really sick, whether it was physical or mental,

0:20:31.910 --> 0:20:35.330
<v Speaker 2>I have been hospitalized for almost three weeks. And I

0:20:35.369 --> 0:20:37.820
<v Speaker 2>can tell you right now it's a shit show in hospitals.

0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.909
<v Speaker 2>They're oftentimes understaffed. If you have a complicated, I had

0:20:41.930 --> 0:20:45.669
<v Speaker 2>a complicated physical situation, they're throwing everything at you. They

0:20:45.690 --> 0:20:48.070
<v Speaker 2>don't know what they're doing and you feel like a

0:20:48.450 --> 0:20:51.230
<v Speaker 2>guinea pig and it's overwhelming and you don't even trust

0:20:51.290 --> 0:20:57.600
<v Speaker 2>the care you're getting because it's so overwhelming and disjointed oftentimes,

0:20:57.670 --> 0:21:00.160
<v Speaker 2>especially if they can't figure out how to fix you.

0:21:00.619 --> 0:21:03.500
<v Speaker 2>So I don't believe this is a woman who wanted

0:21:03.540 --> 0:21:05.340
<v Speaker 2>to do it on her terms. I think she was

0:21:05.380 --> 0:21:08.300
<v Speaker 2>a woman who was left in a situation where no

0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.740
<v Speaker 2>one knew how to help her. And she was let

0:21:10.780 --> 0:21:13.050
<v Speaker 2>down by an industry that hasn't done enough research, that

0:21:13.090 --> 0:21:17.070
<v Speaker 2>hasn't provided enough resources, and hasn't taken this particular issue

0:21:17.210 --> 0:21:21.310
<v Speaker 2>seriously enough. And I do believe she wanted to get better,

0:21:21.650 --> 0:21:23.050
<v Speaker 2>and I don't think she thought.

0:21:22.869 --> 0:21:24.900
<v Speaker 3>She knew how. better than anyone else.

0:21:25.030 --> 0:21:26.790
<v Speaker 2>I think she knew that when she took certain drugs,

0:21:27.210 --> 0:21:29.670
<v Speaker 2>anyone who's been put on drugs, I had, I'm talking

0:21:29.690 --> 0:21:30.149
<v Speaker 2>about headaches.

0:21:30.230 --> 0:21:31.170
<v Speaker 3>I had lots of headaches.

0:21:31.550 --> 0:21:35.730
<v Speaker 2>They start throwing beta blockers and antidepressants and antipsychotics and

0:21:35.869 --> 0:21:37.670
<v Speaker 2>all this stuff at you. And then you get all

0:21:37.710 --> 0:21:40.310
<v Speaker 2>these side effects and it's horrific. And you're like, I'm

0:21:40.350 --> 0:21:43.560
<v Speaker 2>not taking these drugs anymore. And you just dump them.

0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:46.840
<v Speaker 2>I know so many people and I've had a personal

0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:49.740
<v Speaker 2>experience where you're just like, forget these drugs. They might

0:21:49.780 --> 0:21:52.119
<v Speaker 2>fix one thing, but they cause 12 other problems. And

0:21:52.140 --> 0:21:53.020
<v Speaker 2>so it's not worth it.

0:21:53.300 --> 0:21:56.620
<v Speaker 1>Who on that jury has had that experience and can understand? Exactly.

0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:58.580
<v Speaker 1>Because the last thing they heard from the prosecutor was

0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:03.659
<v Speaker 1>everything you said was bullshit. Everything you just said was nope. Quote,

0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:07.240
<v Speaker 1>it was a choice. She could have kept trying. She

0:22:07.260 --> 0:22:09.159
<v Speaker 1>could have moved down to her mother's. She could have

0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.780
<v Speaker 1>killed herself and left her kids alive. It's a choice.

0:22:12.100 --> 0:22:14.120
<v Speaker 1>We don't want to think about a mother doing this

0:22:14.380 --> 0:22:16.320
<v Speaker 1>because it doesn't make us feel safe or comfortable in

0:22:16.340 --> 0:22:18.699
<v Speaker 1>this world. That's how she explained everything you just said.

0:22:19.140 --> 0:22:23.530
<v Speaker 2>So my reaction to that was I felt incredible anger

0:22:23.550 --> 0:22:26.950
<v Speaker 2>towards the prosecutor. I felt incredible anger towards the prosecutor

0:22:26.970 --> 0:22:29.250
<v Speaker 2>in that moment. She lost me in that moment. I

0:22:29.310 --> 0:22:32.510
<v Speaker 2>felt angry on behalf of Lindsay Clancy in that moment.

0:22:32.570 --> 0:22:36.510
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was wildly insensitive. And my thought was,

0:22:36.690 --> 0:22:37.350
<v Speaker 2>how do you.

0:22:37.250 --> 0:22:37.730
<v Speaker 1>Know, lady?

0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:38.820
<v Speaker 3>How do you know?

0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:45.020
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, babe. I want to. That's the thing.

0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:47.880
<v Speaker 1>I want to say this was all in good faith.

0:22:49.050 --> 0:22:51.320
<v Speaker 1>But what has been pointed out plenty of times, Robes,

0:22:51.430 --> 0:22:55.960
<v Speaker 1>is manipulation. There are times that the prosecutor, I have felt,

0:22:56.359 --> 0:23:01.480
<v Speaker 1>was manipulating my emotion or manipulating facts in this case.

0:23:01.940 --> 0:23:04.720
<v Speaker 1>And so credibility is an issue throughout, Robes. And so

0:23:04.820 --> 0:23:07.419
<v Speaker 1>to hear this, I thought that might have been the

0:23:07.460 --> 0:23:10.179
<v Speaker 1>most damning and dismissive thing. All she had to do

0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:10.840
<v Speaker 1>was go to her mom's.

0:23:12.130 --> 0:23:14.430
<v Speaker 2>She even got quiet when she was saying it, like

0:23:14.590 --> 0:23:16.709
<v Speaker 2>sheepish a little, because I think she knew what she

0:23:16.730 --> 0:23:18.100
<v Speaker 2>was saying was so awful.

0:23:18.340 --> 0:23:20.960
<v Speaker 3>When she said she could have just killed herself. And look,

0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:22.780
<v Speaker 3>I get that. I understand that.

0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.840
<v Speaker 2>But sort of the jurors and just the way she

0:23:26.900 --> 0:23:28.520
<v Speaker 2>said it, it was just so flippant.

0:23:28.700 --> 0:23:31.040
<v Speaker 3>And it was so like, yeah, she had plenty of choices.

0:23:31.060 --> 0:23:31.940
<v Speaker 1>What do you think about the quarters?

0:23:33.740 --> 0:23:35.199
<v Speaker 3>Well, when she picked up.

0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:38.060
<v Speaker 2>The quarters that he laid down, if I were her,

0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:39.960
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't have wanted to play into his game.

0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:40.700
<v Speaker 3>That was his thing.

0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:44.939
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't have even wanted to act like, oh, challenge accepted.

0:23:45.220 --> 0:23:48.179
<v Speaker 2>That made it seem more like a competition that she

0:23:48.220 --> 0:23:48.940
<v Speaker 2>was going to win.

0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:50.510
<v Speaker 3>And I didn't like it.

0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:51.760
<v Speaker 2>I didn't.

0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:54.560
<v Speaker 1>And you know what? It wasn't also authentic to her.

0:23:54.980 --> 0:23:55.080
<v Speaker 2>No.

0:23:55.780 --> 0:23:59.270
<v Speaker 1>It seems so staged. I don't know. She's doing the

0:23:59.290 --> 0:24:01.150
<v Speaker 1>best she can. She's doing what she thinks is right,

0:24:01.190 --> 0:24:02.870
<v Speaker 1>and I have to give her grace for that.

0:24:02.970 --> 0:24:03.190
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:24:03.210 --> 0:24:06.469
<v Speaker 1>Because we don't know these women at all. Jennifer L. Sprague,

0:24:06.590 --> 0:24:08.469
<v Speaker 1>I would guess. That's her last name.

0:24:09.410 --> 0:24:10.330
<v Speaker 3>Attorney Sprague.

0:24:13.570 --> 0:24:16.690
<v Speaker 1>Five weeks. That might be my favorite moment. But anyway,

0:24:16.710 --> 0:24:19.109
<v Speaker 1>we can talk about that later, what he did. Well,

0:24:19.130 --> 0:24:21.260
<v Speaker 1>that was two or three days ago. It was pretty incredible.

0:24:21.470 --> 0:24:23.580
<v Speaker 1>The last thing I do want to mention, Robes, about...

0:24:24.940 --> 0:24:28.840
<v Speaker 1>She still, do they think she tried to kill herself

0:24:28.940 --> 0:24:31.790
<v Speaker 1>or not? This is another one, Rose, where they make

0:24:31.830 --> 0:24:35.130
<v Speaker 1>this argument where we never said it wasn't a serious suicide.

0:24:35.270 --> 0:24:37.530
<v Speaker 1>She says this in the beginning. Rose, she gets to

0:24:37.570 --> 0:24:41.080
<v Speaker 1>the end and says she landed the wrong way. The

0:24:41.150 --> 0:24:43.159
<v Speaker 1>idea of jumping out of a 12-foot window is going

0:24:43.180 --> 0:24:46.340
<v Speaker 1>to kill you, but not necessarily. She was dismissive of

0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:49.619
<v Speaker 1>it again. This is what I mean, babe.

0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:52.240
<v Speaker 2>She couldn't even kill herself right, but she killed the

0:24:52.300 --> 0:24:54.580
<v Speaker 2>kids correctly. And I think that was kind of her point,

0:24:54.619 --> 0:24:57.740
<v Speaker 2>that she was able to kill these kids, and even

0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:00.879
<v Speaker 2>though maybe she wanted to die, she still, like, human

0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:03.950
<v Speaker 2>instinct kicked in and she couldn't quite do it right

0:25:04.350 --> 0:25:08.050
<v Speaker 2>because she actually didn't really want to die. But she

0:25:08.170 --> 0:25:11.430
<v Speaker 2>tried to, but not that hard. It was a little confusing.

0:25:11.970 --> 0:25:15.969
<v Speaker 2>I'm not exactly sure what she was trying to get there.

0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:17.780
<v Speaker 2>by saying that?

0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:22.000
<v Speaker 1>Um, they have nothing else to say. It's done. There's

0:25:22.020 --> 0:25:24.139
<v Speaker 1>no more testimony. There's nothing else they can say to

0:25:24.220 --> 0:25:26.580
<v Speaker 1>a juror. They have said everything. They have done everything

0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:29.180
<v Speaker 1>they can. You got 12 people in there, nine women

0:25:29.859 --> 0:25:33.540
<v Speaker 1>and three men sitting there trying to figure out if

0:25:33.580 --> 0:25:38.530
<v Speaker 1>this woman is criminally responsible for doing one of the

0:25:38.590 --> 0:25:42.150
<v Speaker 1>most atrocious things. Well, we've seen women kill the kids before,

0:25:42.570 --> 0:25:45.910
<v Speaker 1>drive them off into the Susan Smith kind of a thing.

0:25:46.270 --> 0:25:48.830
<v Speaker 1>I think the Yates thing is the, I'm trying to,

0:25:48.869 --> 0:25:49.650
<v Speaker 1>am I missing a case?

0:25:49.710 --> 0:25:53.629
<v Speaker 2>Casey Anthony with her daughter, but she chloroformed her to death.

0:25:54.109 --> 0:25:57.230
<v Speaker 1>Okay. Am I missing one? Robes, these are two of

0:25:57.250 --> 0:25:59.050
<v Speaker 1>the most horrific crimes this country's ever seen.

0:25:59.869 --> 0:26:00.050
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:26:00.090 --> 0:26:03.209
<v Speaker 1>We can talk about mass shootings and things. Robes, mother

0:26:03.780 --> 0:26:07.200
<v Speaker 1>strangling kids, drowning kids methodically. This is some of the

0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:10.280
<v Speaker 1>worst stuff we've ever seen. Somebody going out of a

0:26:10.359 --> 0:26:14.140
<v Speaker 1>window in Las Vegas and shooting a crowd because he's disgruntled.

0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:18.969
<v Speaker 1>That's different for us. We, this is atrocious, baby. We

0:26:19.010 --> 0:26:19.670
<v Speaker 1>don't get this.

0:26:19.710 --> 0:26:23.470
<v Speaker 3>This is against nature. This is against human nature.

0:26:23.830 --> 0:26:28.159
<v Speaker 2>And that's why these few, thank God they're few, and

0:26:28.220 --> 0:26:28.820
<v Speaker 2>far between.

0:26:29.180 --> 0:26:30.030
<v Speaker 3>But that's.

0:26:29.830 --> 0:26:33.290
<v Speaker 2>Why these cases, you know, those women's names, Andrea Yates,

0:26:33.670 --> 0:26:39.650
<v Speaker 2>Susan Smith, Casey Anthony, and now Lindsay Clancy. And yes,

0:26:39.730 --> 0:26:43.020
<v Speaker 2>we may be forgetting some, but those are names that

0:26:43.420 --> 0:26:46.520
<v Speaker 2>if you lived through those trials and those crimes, you

0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:50.880
<v Speaker 2>will never forget because it is not typical and it's

0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:52.080
<v Speaker 2>really hard to understand.

0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:55.340
<v Speaker 1>Jury has the case now, folks. The verdict clock, as

0:26:55.359 --> 0:26:58.490
<v Speaker 1>they say, is a ticking, so we are keeping a

0:26:58.530 --> 0:27:00.770
<v Speaker 1>close eye. He could come down. He's been letting them

0:27:00.810 --> 0:27:03.050
<v Speaker 1>go at 4 o'clock every day, but he can have

0:27:03.070 --> 0:27:05.510
<v Speaker 1>them stay longer if they want to stay. The judges

0:27:05.570 --> 0:27:07.970
<v Speaker 1>usually ask. We have no idea how long this is

0:27:07.990 --> 0:27:11.429
<v Speaker 1>going to go today, but tomorrow would be expected to

0:27:11.450 --> 0:27:13.620
<v Speaker 1>be a full day of deliberation if we get to that.

0:27:14.020 --> 0:27:17.980
<v Speaker 1>Either way, we're on it. Appreciate you, as always, for

0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:20.600
<v Speaker 1>hanging with us. We will talk to you soon. I'm

0:27:20.640 --> 0:27:22.119
<v Speaker 1>TJ on behalf of my dear Amy Robach.