WEBVTT - At CMT, A Voice for Change in a Genre That Stubbornly Resists Equal Representation 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:12.039 Hello, and welcome to Variety Strictly Business podcast. I'm Chris Willman, 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.840 Senior music writer in chief music critic Variety. I'm excited 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.200 to talk with our guest today, c MT s Leslie Fran, 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.279 who a general consensus I think we can say is 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.200 one of the most important executives in the Nashville music industry. 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:26.599 That's not just for what she accomplish this for CMT, 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:29.400 which is a lot, for what she brings as an 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.280 agiment of change in her extracurricular activities as well. We're 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:35.880 co founding a couple of organizations that deal with gender 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.560 and racial diversity and country music to being a force 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.440 in the Recording Academy and being the just now newly 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:46.680 reelected governor of the Academy's Nashville chapter board CMT, where 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.040 she's been a top executive for eleven years now. She's 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.160 the senior vice president of Music IT Talent. That means 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.360 she's a producer or executive producer on the network's Temple 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.240 Music specials and series like the c MT Awards, c MTRs, 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.440 The Year Samet Crossroads, and the Weekend Top Point of 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:06.000 Count that show, and she also oversees all musical integration 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.920 within the brand means not just the original programming on 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:12.280 the cable channel, but the CMT dot com website and 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.760 music video airplay on digital platforms. If you've ever read 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:17.640 an article on women in country music in the last 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:19.720 ten years or so, I know you've seen Leslie's name, 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.680 even if you read nothing else about Nashville when last 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.000 year at this time Billboard named her executive a beer 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.160 unless I was quoted as saying she wants to make 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:32.880 country music a quote big, beautiful tent for all underrepresented voices. Unquote. 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:35.280 That's a tall order. As you may know if you 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.600 read about controversies this have risen over lack of diversity 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.320 and country. But Leslie has found that a couple of 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:43.959 organizations that have been important in the space of raising 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.240 awareness for how the industry can do better, including changed 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.440 the Conversation which deals with women in country and Nashville 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:53.840 music quality, just focused on what needs to be done 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.080 to increase the representation of people of color and country. Now, 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:58.600 I don't want to make it sound like Leslie works 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.120 on these issues only after hour, because she brings a 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:03.520 lot of that focus to the world of CMT. Of course, 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:08.359 at CMT in she started up next Women of Country, 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:11.600 an initiative design to give up and coming final artists 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.880 of platform that they often don't get anywhere else, and 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.880 then two years ago she spearheaded a CMT Patual Play 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:22.400 initiative which guarantees that women will get at least representation 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:26.120 and CMT S music programming. I'm Chris Willman, your host 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.919 for this episode. We'll be right back after this break. 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.600 This is Chris Willman a variety and I'm back with 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.120 CMT S Leslie Fran. Thank you so much, Chris. I'm 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.840 actually you can't see me, but I'm blushing from that 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:52.040 incredible introduction. Thank you. Oh gosh, my pleasure. Always good 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:54.000 to talk with you in dribs and drabs as I 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:55.360 have in the past. I'm glad we get to go 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.280 a little more in depth today. Prior to which is 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:00.360 when you moved to Nashville and joined CMT. Of course, 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:03.120 your entire career up to that point was spent in 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:08.280 the alternative album oriented rock formats, and you were even nicknamed, 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.079 as I've read it, the first Lady of modern rock. 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:15.799 I don't know where that came from, but it's interesting. 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:17.800 A lot of people don't know I had a former 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:21.680 life in radio. That was my radio is my first love. 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.600 Is kind of being a shy kid listening to the radio, 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.680 you know, growing up, and that was my form of entertainment. 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:29.880 But radio was my first love. I did a few 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.720 years in Top forty and then album like you said, 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.520 album oriented rock, and then alternative for many years in 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:42.240 Atlanta and New York. Well then in um the station 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.080 you were at New York with Mainfield suddenly changed formats, 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:49.320 as happens every week in this business. And and you 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.520 went into television unexpectedly, and I don't want to say 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.280 you never looked back that uh, it's gone so well 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.920 for you at CMT, and uh, Brian Phillips, who used 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.120 work within radio, had become the chief of CMT, and 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.160 he says, come to Nashville and new country music. And 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.280 you're from Alabama, so maybe moving to the South again 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.440 was not a big stretch, but country music might have 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.880 been for you. So, um, were you like, see, I 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.440 don't know if that's for me or yeah, sure, country 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:19.479 music that seems natural, even though I've just been playing 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.440 you know, Nirvana for the last twenty years. It's very 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.440 interesting that my probably the last two years in New York. 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.840 Maybe the last year in New York, a couple of 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.520 label reps that were friends of mine took me to 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.880 a couple of concerts, country concerts, and you know, pop 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.360 country just was not in my sphere. I really. I 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.000 knew more about the classics and you know, a lot 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:43.880 of Americana artist I loved, like Lyle love it, but 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:46.760 I didn't really know a lot about contemporary country. And 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.000 people took me to shows like I saw Keith Urban 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.240 and I was like, wow, this is kind of a 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:54.599 rock show. And I saw Brad Paisley and Miranda Lambert 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.120 and it started opening up my my world. But I 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.159 did not know in a lot about the format or 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.360 the artist. So when I when Brian, you know, who 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.600 was my mentor and we had worked together at ninety 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.960 X for many years, offered me the job to take 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.520 you know, take over the music at CMT, I said 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.880 yes without even thinking about it. So I moved here. 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.640 Absolutely loved Nashville, and you know, the Nashville community of people, 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.440 as you know, Chris, they're so friendly and you know 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.200 they welcome you with open arms. But I really put 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:25.840 my head down that first year. You know, I went 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.000 to a ton of concerts and studied the artist and 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:33.000 you know, also studied the format, and to be honest 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.040 with you, I needed to learn the job as well. 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.360 So for the first year I really put my head down. 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:38.880 I set out to meet a whole new set of 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.599 people or in the music, and then going from radio 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:46.120 to television, honestly learned the job. So I feel like 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:50.159 it was such a learning experience because this format works 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:52.880 so differently than pop and rock, you know, and now 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.040 I'm you know, now a minute, I love it. Yeah, 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.640 what's the biggest difference for how it works? I mean, 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.719 I know, like playlist in a radio are very slow moving, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.160 but in television maybe you don't have to deal with 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.919 that so much. A lot of it was about touring. 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.320 At that time, you know, ten eleven years ago, it 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:10.920 was very hard to get on a tour unless you 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.640 had a song on the radio. And guess who that 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:19.240 excluded women? And then honestly, the way the chart works 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.480 and and how the whole you know, the heart whole 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:25.600 chart system works. But the one thing that that I 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.560 did learn coming out of that experience was lack of 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.120 support for female artists. But I will say that, you know, 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.919 hopefully that is changing. Especially with you know, some of 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:40.200 the initiatives that we started, but that was the biggest difference. 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:42.920 I do think that there's a loyal fan base, more 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.640 loyal than any other genre, which I learned. I also 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:47.880 learned that fans go to concerts and they're there for 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.400 the opening act. I remember going to see Eric Church 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.080 and you know, there's a whole family sitting behind me, 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.080 and I was like they were there from the very 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:59.360 minute the first act was there. And I never experienced 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:00.599 that in a lot of a of shows that I 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.200 went to. Well, this may be a loaded question, but 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:08.400 how much has changed you've You've it's been eight years 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.920 since Next Women of Country started, Um, I know a 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.160 lot of women who uh we're part of that program 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.760 has broken out in a big way. Like, you know, 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.160 Marion Morris was in the program at one point, Jelcie Ballerini, 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.880 Carley Pierce, who's kind of finally getting her do with 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:27.240 number one songs, Uh, Gabby Barrett was a Next Woman 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:31.480 of a Country graduate. Um. And yet so there's all 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:35.040 these real success stories and yet looking at the overall 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.840 picture of women a Country, Uh, you know, we know 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.679 Dr Jada E. Watson has run a lot of data 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.760 on the radio charts, and it seems like it's as 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.800 bad as it was then when you really go down 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:52.840 to what percentage of the overall UM format women have 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:57.240 in radio? And uh, and you know this program you 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.440 started a few years ago, Equal Play One Tea where 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:04.680 you devoted um at least pledged to devote at least 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:09.520 of all airplanes, m c MT and its platforms to women. Um, 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:11.960 it's not like a radio has just come along and go, oh, 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.720 what a great idea. You know, they won't even pledge 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.880 ten percent, you know, and it seems like it's it's 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.440 down to five percent of times when we look at 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:25.600 Dr Watson's data. So, uh, what's your feeling, what's changed 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:27.720 and what happen't for women? Since this has been a 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.320 controversy for so long, though, I think the positive changes 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.240 that I've seen is that when we first started next 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:39.840 Women of Country and really pledged to support and expose 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.360 these female artists, we've seen more women get signed to 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.800 record labels and more women get signed to publishing companies. 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.640 And the other really the other aspect was women supporting 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.440 women because remember a lot of female artists were taught 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.600 there's only one slot, so We wanted to make sure 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.800 that female artists were supporting each other on social media 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.000 and talking about each other, because a win for one 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.439 was a win for all. And I know that I've 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.040 said that many times, but it's true. Unfortunately, we have 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.520 seen years where the percentages have gone down, and that's 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:12.120 when we looked at it and said, you know, we 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.880 can't control what rest your radio does. We can't control 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.920 with streaming services do. What we can control is what 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:22.079 CMT does. And that's really what precipitated CEMT Equal Play 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.720 because we looked at our hour by hours, you know, 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.440 at CMT in the morning and then CMT Music, which 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.880 is our twenty four hour video channel, and we started 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.640 another twenty four hour video channel on Pluto TV, which 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:39.320 is owned by Paramount before Viacom CBS. And what's happened 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.480 is that we see that country music index is so 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.720 high on especially Pluto TV. So fifty fifty parody of 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:50.000 male female videos every single hour, ratings haven't gone down. 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.640 And now with you know, a nod towards diversity and 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.920 making sure that we have diverse voices in those hours, 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.920 but really changing it to fifty five was a bold 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.040 move and quite honestly, it's the ratings haven't gone down 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.920 and we've been able to expose that many more women, 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:09.880 whether they're signed or unsigned. You know, we do have 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.680 slots for independent artists as well on all of our franchises. 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.760 That's great. I want to ask you more about Plato 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:22.079 TV in a minute, UM, before I do. UM. Besides 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.720 the gender frent, there's the racial disparity fronts. Unfortunately, we 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:27.840 have to deal with the multiple issues that come up 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.960 in country and there actually been a lot of black 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.559 artists doing really well on radio recently, UM and in 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.920 the wider community of how people experience country and I 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.520 think of Jimmy Allen and the Breeland who I know 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.640 is a friend of yours. UM and uh. But it's 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.360 almost this radio. I was saying, hey, we don't have 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.400 a problem with people of color, after all, this format 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.640 just just female people of color. And so we have 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:58.760 the uh, you know, the Mickey guidance of the world, 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:01.679 who see them like your stars if kind of you 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:04.559 you're out there in the mainstream and not really part 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:09.080 of country radio and uh and not and you're experiencing 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:13.719 things through award shows and U mass media presence. UM. 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.200 But the Airplane hasn't been there, but clearly Mickey Guyden 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.320 is a favorite of cmt UM. But does it feel 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.839 like kind of uh, black Women is really the last 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.560 frontier in this format for some reason. You know, it's 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.120 interesting me and in a lot of people in town 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:33.920 will tell you this because we all remember when she 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.120 sort of made her debut at CRS Country Radio seminar, 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:40.760 you know, ten years ago when UMG does there huge 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:42.880 showcase at the Rheman and she came out on that 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:45.440 stage and got a standing ovation. Now remember the people 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.400 in that audience are all radio people, and she still 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.440 wasn't supported and that first single, you know, to me 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.080 was was a smash. Now, I don't know what happened. 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.480 I don't know you know, what the research said or 0:11:57.480 --> 0:11:59.400 didn't say, but I can tell you that my radio 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.960 ears said song as a smash. So she's really been 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:07.280 largely ignored at Trestal Radio. And then she goes back again, 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:11.080 you know, last year and gets another standing ovation, you know, 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:15.079 singing black like me. But to me, she has arguably 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.120 one of the best voices, not just in country music 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.160 but justin music. And the fact that she's been embraced 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.360 by you know, the super Bowl, to the Rock and 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:26.760 Roll Hall of Fame and she can't get played on 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.160 trestal radio. That is a huge question mark in my 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:33.560 mind for someone who's held her head up and you know, 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.320 became the voice of everything over the last several years. 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:41.920 She deserves to be supported. She's talented. Well, continuing on 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.400 subject to women just for a minute, because it's a 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.360 rich subject, it is. We could go on all day 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:51.559 about it. Yeah, I'm just standing, why do you think 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:56.120 occasionally someone breaks through and others like Mickey don't and uh, 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.840 you know, it seems like radio has not been that 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:03.920 interested in Mickey Guitan and Casey Musgraves, who is basically, 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:06.200 you know, one of the most recognizable stars in any 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.840 format at this point. And on CMT these people are stars, 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:13.320 and in the mass media there's stars um and then 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:15.600 occasionally someone breaks through. It I've been inested like why 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.440 Landy Wilson, who I like a lot, has broken through 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:22.000 and had a number one record And it's sort of 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.040 I don't know, you know, I think radio sometimes uses 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.360 that to say, hey, we're not we're not prejudiced because 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:30.520 you know, we gave this person a number one record 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:32.199 and that gives us like a free ride for another 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:36.400 eight months. Um, but I'm I'm wondering, you know, is 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.680 there something they're looking for out of women that they're 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.640 not getting or or is there like real bus and 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.920 prejudice there? And again this isn't you know obviously, I 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.040 know we're talking about terrestrial radio, but a lot of 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:52.200 my friends are at radio program radio stations. A lot 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.719 of them have their hands tied because they're overseeing, you know, 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.920 multiple radio stations and can't make decisions in their own market. 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.000 But the Casey Musgrave story is one of the most 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:05.280 perplexing stories ever because if you are in radio, you 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.320 should jumping on anything pop culture. The fact that she 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.360 won all of those Grammys and was still not supported. 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:13.960 And I can say the same thing about Chris Stapleton 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.760 in a few minutes, but uh, for someone who had 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:23.000 a classic country album and was not supported, there's no answer. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.200 There's absolutely no answer. So she went out on her 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.640 own and she has a career without radio and will 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.040 always have a career without radio. But the fact that 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.160 Kasey Musgraves, who by the way, is in a league 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.800 of her own and took the format globally and is 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.080 not supported. I mean, this is how you're gonna get 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.640 me all worked up. Um. I think for Laney, she's listen, 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.720 Laney is straight down the middle country. And I think again, 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.560 right now, the fans and and radio are seeing that 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:54.240 there's a huge appetite for authenticity and for and for 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.840 mainstream country. And I think timing wise, it's been great 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.840 for Landy Wilson. She's so talented and you know, we're 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:02.840 all happy that she's having this moment and I think 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:06.760 she's gonna end up being our next superstar. Yeah. Yeah, 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.360 just seems like there's there's maybe a more strict litmus 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.760 tests that women have to pass than men, all of them. 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:15.920 I think that, you know, and again, and I love 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.160 I have so many favorite male artists, But to me, 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:20.640 the women are making the most interesting music right now. 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:25.240 And for for radio, I think that radio wins when 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.920 there's a great balance, and that's balance of sound and 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.920 balance of gender. So where are the women? You know, 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.240 I always say that we're in fear of erasing female voices. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.640 So if you hear eight male voices in a row 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:39.440 and then you hear female, guess what, it's going to 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.360 be a disruptor because you're training the listeners not to 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.840 hear female voices, and that to me, is a detriment 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.200 to the format, and it's really bothersome for the future 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.520 of the format because women, to me, were the backbone 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:55.880 of this format with Loretta and Dolly and and everyone else. 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.120 So the future of the format to me is in 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:02.680 jeopardy by racing you know, females and their point of 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.200 view to the audience. And it's interesting because even some 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:08.560 of the superstars like Miranda don't get a break at 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:14.040 country radio either. Hm. There have been many Miranda songs 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:15.800 that haven't gone to number one that should have gone 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.480 to number one. Hint, hint than the latest one. I 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.480 think you know, listen. There are alternate ways now for 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:25.000 artists to be exposed, which is great. I think it's 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:26.520 a great time to be an artist. I know, it's 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.080 kind of the wild wild West, and you have, you know, 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.240 more that you have to do because there's so many 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.480 different platforms now. But I think that you could have 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:38.640 legitimately have a career as an independent artist because you 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:40.880 run that fear if you get signed of being put 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.120 on the back burner or you're on a runway with 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.960 you know, twenty other artists, and you're not able to 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.960 freely release music on your own. That's what I love 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.680 what some of these independent artists are doing, whether it's 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:54.480 on TikTok or whatever. You know, you know, the the 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:57.000 Ashley Cooks of the world who just got signed and 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:59.680 Alexandra k I mean, they're doing it on their own. 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.880 And I've seen some of these TikTok artists actually band 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.760 together and do their own tours. So in a way, 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:10.000 you know, they're saying, listen, we can do this independently. 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.040 We have a whole fan base that's out there that's 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:18.720 discovering us on social media. We're talking with Leslie Fram 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:29.960 of CMT on Strictly Business. We'll be right back. We're 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.720 back with Leslie Fram of CMT, who's leading the charge 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:36.080 in Nashville for diversity with some outside initiatives for country 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.719 music as well as the work she does at CMT. 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.840 So move away from the subject of representation, uh for 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:45.520 a little bit here, of course, I want to ask 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.440 you about the world of CMT itself and its core 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.320 music franchises, and most of all, are most prominently of 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:56.679 all CMT awards, as people know, went on CBS for 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.760 the first time this year. Um, there were musical chairs 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.439 going on in the Country Award sphere. UM and the 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.800 c m as were unaffected by that, but the other 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.359 two big shows, the A c m S the c 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:11.080 m T S did some switching around. And UM, you know, 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.359 CBS stop negotiating to renew the A c M S, 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.760 and I think a lot of us probably thought, well, 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.440 you know, CBS can do without a Country Music Awards show. 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:21.760 That wouldn't be the strangest thing in the world. And 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.080 then we hear that they're elevating the c MT Awards 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:30.280 to premiere on CPS and then follow on CMT later 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:32.480 and and also be on a million different channels and 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:37.439 platforms like everything is nowadays. Um and uh, that seems 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.720 like a no brainer in retrospect that do you remember 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.040 the initial stirrings of hey, this is something we can 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.200 do to elevate the show that corporately is already in house. Um, 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:51.600 it's already a franchise for a sister or nice network 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.520 or whatever we want to call it. Um. And did 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.840 you have any sort of territorial feelings like we should 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.359 we should get that on cm the uh or what 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.600 was your feelings when you first started to get the 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:08.240 rumblings of an idea that the awards with the on 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.800 a major broadcast network. You know, we've really been lucky, Chris, 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.640 that we've had big fans of the same T Music 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.880 Awards in the company within the company, from Bob back 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.600 Ish to George Cheeks to Bruce Gilmur to Chris McCarthy. 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.160 They come to the show every year. So the fact 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.639 that it was in the portfolio just made sense to 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:31.000 take it to a broader audience on CBS. And so 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.840 for us, obviously taking it to a bigger audience, we 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:36.680 were really proud that we were able to do that. 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.320 Plus you know, streaming on Paramount plus it just it 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.679 made sense. And the fact that they were fans of 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.000 the show, they're fans of country music. They loved what 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.000 we did, and most importantly, they said, hey, just do 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:49.720 the show that you do. You don't have to change 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.600 anything because it's going on CBS. We just want you 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:56.000 guys to do the show that you do, because you know, 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:58.840 our show has a different point of view outside of 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.280 the fact that it spanned the did our show is 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.760 known for great collaborations with artists from out of the genre, 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:09.040 unexpected moments, and you know, having that look of an 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.520 outdoor stage, and so I think it all worked, and 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:14.680 it worked beautifully on CBS. You know, we had to 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.399 change the day because of the Grammys, but at the 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:19.960 end of the day, I thought the show was beautiful. 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:21.959 We were really proud of it. And you know, for 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.600 me to be able to continue to work with Margaret 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.800 Como and John Hamilin, it's just it's an honor. I 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.199 learned every day from them. But having that support from 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:35.080 the company, and again, they were all here and they 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:37.480 were sitting at the very beginning of the show to 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.080 the very end of the show, they were just you know, 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.480 they're in there. They're always an one. I think they 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:45.800 also love the camaraderie between the artist because sometimes you 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.240 might not see that at other award shows and other genres. 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.359 But the fact that the artists love each other and 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:52.840 they sit with each other and they do the red 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:56.040 carpet and they're cheering each other on. We kind of 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.280 have our own special world and country music. But again, 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:01.960 we were very, very proud of what we were able 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.160 to do on CBS and the fact that we're going 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.680 to be back on CBS next year. Okay, so that's 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.760 a commitment. To that it worked and we're gonna keep 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:15.199 doing it. It's a huge commitment again and uh, you know, 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:17.920 probably one of the proudest moments for all of us 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:20.680 at CMT because it's our biggest show of the year, 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.959 So to be able to have it on CBS and 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:28.800 Paramount plus having that brand be displayed to a bigger audience, 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:34.760 our brand mental world to all of us. Yeah. You know, 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:36.439