1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 2: This January, Chinese state media treated viewers to a gripping 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: spectacle the arrest and public humiliation of a tycoon and 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 2: suspected master criminal Chan Ju. 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: If you watch the footage, you see that the gods 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: in the swat Gea have changed him into the prison 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 1: garb and they're placing the black bag over his head. 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: His arms are in shackles. 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 2: David Ramley is a Bloomberg investing reporter based in Singapore. 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: He watched the footage of Chun's extradition from Cambodia. A 11 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: team armed with automatic weapons leads Chun onto the plane, and. 12 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: Then it's later when he comes off the plane, they 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: take the bag off and his eyes are just staring 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: at the ground and clearly he realizes this is a 15 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: very different scenario to what he had expected. 16 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: Chen allegedly ran a criminal network in Cambodia for more 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: than a decade. His businesses were believed of used forced 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: labor and were said to have defrauded people all over 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: the world of billions of dollars. A lot of countries 20 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 2: had their eyes on him, including the US's Federal Bureau 21 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: of Investigation. 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: Different governments have different accusations regarding Chen and his organization. 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: Most of it revolves around money laundering. Some of the 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: accusations say what he was laundering with proceeds of crime, 25 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: and a lot of that crime relates to a mix 26 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: of online gambling scam centers. 27 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 2: Chun's arrest and extradition was a dramatic reversal of fortune. 28 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: He had spent years living a billionaire's life in Singapore, London, 29 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 2: Taipei and Hong Kong. He cruised with politicians on his 30 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 2: super yacht and were chauffeured around in luxury cars. So 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 2: what change that led to this abrupt and sudden downfall. 32 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: I think it was a mix of various factors. On 33 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: the one hand, you had rising pressure from the Americans. 34 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: They clearly sanctioned it, huge number and a huge array 35 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: of his organization. Chinese authorities also had been ramping up pressure, 36 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: and Cambodia basically had to act. All the things that 37 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: Chen had used to maintain his support for so long 38 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: within the Cambodian regime. All the things that had kept 39 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: him operating now coalesced into unstoppable pressure. 40 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News I'm Wanha. 41 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: Every week we take you inside some of the world's 42 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 2: biggest and most powerful economies and the markets, tycoons, and 43 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: businesses that drive this ever shifting region. Today in the 44 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: show The Rise and Fall of Chen Chu, the tycoon 45 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 2: who allegedly built an empire on scams, trafficking and political protection. 46 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 2: How he suspected criminal network earning tens of millions of 47 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: dollars a day suddenly crumbled and what led to a 48 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: swift downfall. By any account, the Rise of Chinju was 49 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: meteoric born in nineteen eighty seven in Fujin, a southern 50 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: coastal province of China. He got a start in business 51 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 2: running an internet cafe and gaming center. 52 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: When he started in Fujin, to the best of our 53 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: knowledge and according to his own family offices now deleted biography, 54 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: he was just another kid worked with his father in 55 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: the family business before eventually getting into internet cafes, and 56 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: at a very young age I think circa twenty four 57 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: he went off to Cambodia to seek a new fortune. 58 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: In twenty fourteen, Chen appears to found a way to 59 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: acquire Cambodian citizenship under foreign Investor program. Soon after, he 60 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: founded Prince real estate. 61 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: Well. At first his empire in Cambodia was probably relatively modest. 62 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: He was doing property development, he was doing certain buildings, 63 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: business parks, et cetera. But quickly he managed to flip 64 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: these into much larger enterprises. There was a downturn around 65 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: the early time that he was there, and a lot 66 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: of Chinese entrepreneurs and investors actually left Cambodia because they 67 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: found it a little bit too risky. He doubled down, 68 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: and in doing so he really established himself as a 69 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: key player. 70 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: Prince real Estate quickly became a household name across Cambodia. 71 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: As Chen's wealth grew, it expanded into a full blown conglomerate. 72 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: He started building casinos, he scited building hotels, restaurants, He 73 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: even got into a wide variety of services. By the 74 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: end of his time, he had Prince Bank, which actually 75 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: had about a billion dollars in deposits from various clients. 76 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: And then at some point he's alleged to ventured into 77 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: a lot of illicit operations as well. 78 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: Right, so, a lot of the accusations from both the 79 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: NGOs as well as from researchers, journalists, the US agencies 80 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: such as the FBI Center on the dual use aspect 81 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: of his empire, and inside of those office buildings were 82 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: his operations, allegedly for running scams targeting citizens all over 83 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: the world out of billions and billions of dollars. That 84 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: money would often be funneled into the purchase of crypto 85 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: mining equipment, and then the crypto mining equipment was harvesting 86 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: huge amounts of crypto which was then ostensibly clean, and 87 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: that's one of the key ways that he allegedly launded money. 88 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 2: During those years, Prince Group built business campuses and poured 89 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: money into transforming a Cambodian port city called Seannoukville into 90 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 2: a gambling hotspot with numerous casinos and hotels. Investigators alleged 91 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 2: some of these sites became notorious scam hubs. One of 92 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: them was a place called Mingo Park. 93 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: Once upon a time, it was a farm of mangoes, 94 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: and then they turned it into a processing center for mangoes, 95 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: and then they basically built over it a series of 96 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: office buildings. There are many facilities filled with thousands of 97 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: workers who are actively scammed people all over the world, 98 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: according to various indictments and accusations. 99 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: The allegations against Chen say, workers from across the world 100 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 2: worked in shifts around the clock in these complexes to 101 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: scam overseas victims out of money. The scheme is known 102 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 2: as pig butchering. That's a reference to fattening pigs before slaughter. 103 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: These range the gamut from your average love interest scam, 104 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: where somebody claims to be a potential wife or a 105 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: potential husband for someone who's perhaps a little bit lonely, 106 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: to the classic Nigerian prince scam, where someone claims that 107 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: they have a huge fortune awaiting you if only you 108 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: jump through a series of hoops. And in other cases 109 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: there are investment scams where they claim to be very 110 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: successful in investment brokers who take your money and can 111 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: triple or could ruple your funds if you use their 112 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: platform to do so. And in all of these cases 113 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: allegedly it's simply a way of extracting money from people's 114 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: bank accounts. 115 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,119 Speaker 2: And David, what was life like for these workers, many 116 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 2: of whom, as as you said, were likely trafficked. What 117 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 2: kind of conditions were they living and working under. 118 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: Well, it's not quite black and white. It's actually quite fascinating. 119 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: Many of the workers really were paid They were salaried 120 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: employees who knew what they were doing, but many others 121 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: were not. They had come under false pretenses. Some had 122 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: thought they were working normal it jobs. They were brought in, 123 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: they were taken to the room, and if they performed well, 124 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: they actually got paid. Sometimes they got bonuses. In other cases, 125 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: if they did not perform well, if they constantly or 126 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: even occasionally made mistakes, they were often punished. And the 127 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: indictment details some of these alleged punishments, beatings being meted out, 128 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: people being hunted down. 129 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: And how lucrative david were these scam centers well. 130 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: According to the indictment, one of the key lieutenants boasted 131 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: in text messages that the operation was generating in excess 132 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: of thirty US million dollars per day. That's only in 133 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. 134 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: And obviously you can't build a business empower like Chens 135 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 2: of this scale without connections. How well connected politically was 136 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: he in Cambodia. 137 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: Chen was incredibly well connected to the highest levels of 138 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: politics and power in Cambodia. There are a variety of 139 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: ways to illustrate this, but I'll give you one. Twenty 140 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: twenty two, on a state visit to Cuba. Chen's right 141 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: there in videos that you can look up right now 142 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: on former Prime Minister Hunsen's personal official, verified Facebook page. 143 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: Chen used his growing wealth to build political influence and 144 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 2: styled himself as a philanthropist. He donated trucks to Cambodia's 145 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 2: National Police, handed out scholarships, and gave about two million 146 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: dollars to the Cambodian Red Cross, which is overseen by 147 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: Boon Rannie, the wife of longtime leader Hunsen. And when 148 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 2: Chun got wind of then Prime Minister Hunsen's fondness for 149 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: luxury watches, he leveraged that too and set up a 150 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: specialty watch making school. 151 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: Prince Horology was the watch school that he set up 152 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: and produced the watches that hun Sen handed out to 153 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: world leaders during the Asian Meeting. If you go to 154 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: the government collections of the US government, the Canadian government, 155 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: and the Australian government, you will find risk watches with 156 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: Prince Horology and his personal logo etched into the equipment. There. 157 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: By twenty twenty, Chen had reached the absolute pinnacle of 158 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: Cambodian society, and thanks to his high powered political connections, 159 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: Chen and his businesses were shielded and they flourished for 160 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: more than a decade. 161 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: Well, according to people we've spoken to, it was definitely 162 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: a fact that if you moved against Chen, it was 163 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: seen as you moving against Cambodia. And you have to 164 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: remember the geopolitics of the time. Everyone wanted Cambodia to 165 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: be on its side in this new Cold War scenario, 166 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: and none wanted to offend hun Sen, Hunmanette or the 167 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: senior politicians of Cambodia protected. 168 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 2: Chen allegedly built one of the biggest scam syndicates in 169 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 2: the world. The combination of money from princes, legitimate and 170 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: illicit businesses made Chen extremely rich, and he moved money 171 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: offshore and began spending it. 172 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: He led the life of a global billionaire in cities 173 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: all over the planet. He had properties in Hong Kong, 174 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: he had properties in Tokyo, he had properties in Singapore, London, 175 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: you name it. He had a fifty four meter super yacht, 176 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: and that was only one of several yachts that he 177 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: owned or controlled. And on those yachts he would host 178 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: highly elaborate parties. We're not talking normal parties that you 179 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: and I might attend. We're talking parties with free flowing 180 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: whiskey aged for many, many decades, costing thousands of dollars 181 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: per dram Cuban cigars of every vintage you can imagine. 182 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 2: I mean, the fact that there was so much money 183 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: flowing from Prince Group did that raise any alarm at 184 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: any of the banks. 185 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: Certainly? What I found fascinating was that several banks actually 186 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: filed suspicious transaction reports against him, and they filed that 187 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: with various regulators, not just in Singapore, Bitalsho, in Taiwan, etc. 188 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: The fact that they themselves found him triggering so many 189 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: red flags that they shuttered his accounts shows that many 190 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: banks knew something was up. But because there was no 191 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: way for the banks to warn each other for quite 192 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: fair privacy reasons, and because the state was not empowered 193 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: in some ways to warn other banks when a separate 194 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: bank can close someone's accounts, he was simply able to 195 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,599 Speaker 1: spin up new bank accounts at other institutions and continue 196 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: transferring money all over the world. 197 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: Chen could not be reached for comment. A spokesperson for 198 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: the Prince Companies, who asked to be unnamed for safety reasons, 199 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: denied the allegations from the US and UK against Chen, 200 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: and said the US Department of Justices, legal filings contained inconsistencies, falsehoods, 201 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: and egregious overreach. After the break, how international pressure from 202 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 2: across the globe triggered Chen's sudden downfall. Countries have ways 203 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 2: of recognizing those who've made exceptional contributions. In the US, 204 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: the president gives out Presidential Medals of Freedom. In the UK, 205 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: there's knighthoods. In Cambodia, one of the greatest honors that 206 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 2: a civilian can receive is the title of nik ogna, 207 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 2: equivalent to a lord, and in July twenty twenty, the 208 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: King bestowed that title on Chen Ju. It was a 209 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: remarkable achievement, but at the very point that Chen had 210 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: reached these dizzying heights, events were in play to bring 211 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: him down. Chen's alleged criminal enterprises benefited from the COVID 212 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 2: nineteen penceandemic. People spent more time online and the pool 213 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 2: of potential scam victims widened, and according to experts, Chen 214 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: and the Prince Group were just one part of a 215 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: broader network of scam operations across Cambodia and the region, 216 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 2: but as a number of victims likely millions worldwide, from 217 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 2: the US to China, began to grow, so did scrutiny. 218 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 2: Law enforcement agencies had already caught a scent of what 219 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 2: Chen was up to, and in twenty twenty Chinese authorities 220 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 2: set up a task force to investigate the Prince group 221 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: in Cambodia, but real international pressure didn't come until the 222 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: end of last year. 223 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: In October, the US and UK governments finally decided to 224 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: take action against him, and comprehensive action, I should say. 225 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: They sanctioned over one hundred different entities all over the world, 226 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: and many of these were controlling entities used to run 227 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: companies in other parts of the world. It was a 228 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: real shock to the system, especially for the Asian law 229 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: enforcement organizations. They actually had not been made aware that 230 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: these sanctions were about to hit, so it was only 231 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: after the sanctions were announced that governments in Hong Kong, Singapore, 232 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: Taiwan and elsewhere started to take some serious action and 233 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: seized assets ranging from cause to jewelry to gold and property. 234 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: US federal prosecutors also revealed that they had seized nearly 235 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty thousand bitcoins Chun once controlled. That's 236 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 2: a record hall then worth fifteen billion dollars. This week, 237 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: lawyers for Chen filed emotion in a New York court 238 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: to dismiss the US government seizure of a hall of 239 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: bitcoin it's linked to him. The lawyers argued that many 240 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: of the allegations against Chen are provably and obviously false, 241 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: and that accusations he oversaw scam compounds were non specific 242 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: statements and background commentary about conditions in Cambodia. They raised 243 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: questions about the timeline if the cryptocurrency seizure, and said 244 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 2: the bitcoin couldn't possibly have been the proceeds of fraud 245 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: or money laundering. Last year, tensions between Thailand and Cambodia 246 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: escalated to deadly violence along the border, and in the 247 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: lead up to Thailand's elections, scam centers around the region 248 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: became a hot button issue in the campaigns. 249 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: The Thai government had turned it into a war on 250 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: the scams. They had actually actively bombarded scam centers on 251 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: the border with Thailand. They were illustrating to the international 252 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: public the extent of the scam activity targeting citizens around 253 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: the world. 254 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: At this point, Chun's operations had become too big and 255 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 2: his victims too numerous to ignore. President Trump himself even 256 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: got involved, forcing Cambodia to crack down on scam centers 257 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: that target Americans. He explicitly made it a part of 258 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 2: a deal for lower tariffs. 259 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: This was just a series of unfortunate for him events 260 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: that came together. It's hard for him to predict that 261 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: the Americans would suddenly do such a thing. It's hard 262 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: for him to predict that the Ties would use scam 263 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: activities as a key tent pole for justifying their invasion 264 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: of Cambodian alleged territory. 265 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: And while the Americans were honing in on Chen and 266 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: his suspected scam centers, China was also making progress on 267 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: its investigation. For weeks, some of Chen's staff were expecting 268 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: Cambodia to reach a deal with China that would result 269 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: in just a slap on the wrist for Chen. But 270 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 2: the end when it came, was sudden. In a late 271 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: night statement on January seventh, Cambodia announced that Chen and 272 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: two others had been arrested and immediately extradited. Since his 273 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: arrest and extradition, what do we know of the operations 274 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: of Prince Group now with him out of the picture. 275 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: Well, we understand that the operations of Prince Group are 276 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: much depleted. Several organizations that were in full swinging operation 277 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: before he was arrested, such as Prince Bank, Prince Real Estate, 278 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: Prince Horology, the Watchmaking School, were all curtailed or shut down. 279 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 2: Now, these kinds of scam centers which are prevalent in 280 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: parts of Asia, they often depend on trafficed workers. Cambodia 281 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: shut down a number of these centers. What happens to 282 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: these workers now. 283 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: Well, what's happened since Chen's arrest has been remarkable. We've 284 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: seen a lot of scam centers throughout Cambodia emptying out 285 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: streams of people from all over the world India, Indonesia, China, 286 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: other parts, queueing out in front of their country's embassies, 287 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: trying to get home, saying that they had escaped and 288 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: wanting to get a ticket back to their place of birth. 289 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: But what we've also heard is that a lot of 290 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: centers are allegedly still in operation. They've simply quietened down. 291 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: According to one of the senior minute we've spoken to, 292 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: scam activity is down fifty percent in Cambodia. Now we 293 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: don't know exactly what that refers to, is that the 294 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: number of scammers in countries the number of scam operations 295 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: or the revenue lost. But it shows that even by 296 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: the Cambodian government's own admission, there's still a substantial amount 297 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: of scam activity happening today right now. 298 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: At the end of the day, David says, scamming is 299 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 2: just too lucrative for criminals to resist, and these scammer 300 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 2: networks are like hydras. You cut off one head, but 301 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 2: others are ready to emerge and replace them. 302 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: I think the main thing standing in the way of 303 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: shutting down all of these scam centers is greed. The 304 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: huge amount of money that they are able to generate 305 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: is liable to create corruption in any market, let alone 306 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: emerging markets in frontier markets. Basically, the only way this 307 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: gets shut down is if you have clean government willing 308 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 1: to take drastic action against some of the most senior 309 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: members of your own country, both in business, politics, and 310 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: perhaps other spheres of influence. And that's a hard task. 311 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: I think one unanimous thing we've heard from every expert 312 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: is that this is not the end of scams either 313 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia of all the world. This industry will 314 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: continue and they will continue to be victims. Now how 315 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 1: successful those efforts are in shutting down these centers that 316 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: remains to be seen and coordinated action can make a 317 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 1: real impact on that. 318 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: This is The Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm 319 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 2: wanh To get more from The Big Take and unlimited 320 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 2: access to all of Bloomberg dot Com, subscribe today at 321 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: Bloomberg dot com slash podcast Offer. If you liked the episode, 322 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 2: make sure to subscribe and review The Big Take Asia 323 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people find 324 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: the show. Thanks for listening, See you next time.