1
00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,000
Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

2
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,280
Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

3
00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:13,840
Speaker 1: Time for a little bit of vault. Uh. You know what,

4
00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,000
Speaker 1: since we just recently did this big exploration of psychedelics

5
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,400
Speaker 1: with a special focus on especially the fungal world of

6
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,319
Speaker 1: psychedelics and psilocybin, but we didn't really get into M

7
00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,159
Speaker 1: d M A, we thought we should re air the

8
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,320
Speaker 1: episodes that you and Christian did back in about M

9
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,280
Speaker 1: d M A, right, And I do want to stress

10
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 1: that these episodes, yeah, they are from um, you know,

11
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,320
Speaker 1: a lot of research has the research has continued in

12
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,520
Speaker 1: subsequent years, and now we're at a point where we're

13
00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:44,919
Speaker 1: really looking at the at M d M A potentially

14
00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:46,920
Speaker 1: being rescheduled in the you know, in the in the

15
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 1: near future. So just keep that in mind as you

16
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,800
Speaker 1: revisit these episodes. You know that the history is still valid,

17
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,480
Speaker 1: but the researcher has advanced and hopefully we'll be able

18
00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,160
Speaker 1: to do a future new episode on M d M

19
00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,680
Speaker 1: A and what the current research is telling us about

20
00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:08,840
Speaker 1: this particular substance. We hope you enjoy. Welcome to Stuff

21
00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:17,720
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. From how Stuff Works dot com. Hey,

22
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,360
Speaker 1: you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

23
00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,240
Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and my name is Christian Sager. Today

24
00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,720
Speaker 1: we are going to be talking about a drug. We're

25
00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,759
Speaker 1: gonna be talking about m d m A, also known

26
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 1: as ecstasy, but specifically we're gonna be getting into kind

27
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,480
Speaker 1: of in this episode. What the you know, breakdown of

28
00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,080
Speaker 1: it is, how it works in chemistry, how it works

29
00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,440
Speaker 1: in biology, what its effects are on human body. Then

30
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna do a second episode that's going to be

31
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,600
Speaker 1: mainly about experiments that have been conducted for what thirty

32
00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,360
Speaker 1: years now maybe longer, on how you can use m

33
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 1: d m A to cure all kinds of things or

34
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:57,320
Speaker 1: at least alleviate things from cancer to uh using it

35
00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,520
Speaker 1: in psychotherapy, and using it to help people with PTS. Yeah,

36
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:01,760
Speaker 1: so you can think of it as a one to

37
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:06,200
Speaker 1: approach to looking at a particular drug, and if you

38
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 1: guide some gals like this, we can take the same

39
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,600
Speaker 1: approach with other substances in the future. Yeah, definitely. It

40
00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,560
Speaker 1: seems like once we did the research for this, it

41
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,720
Speaker 1: seems like this is rife. This avenue is right for

42
00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,840
Speaker 1: for more research and episodes along these lines, you know,

43
00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,120
Speaker 1: I'd love to do another kind of episode that's based

44
00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,120
Speaker 1: on the pharmacology of designer drug or or a commercial

45
00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,040
Speaker 1: kind of street drug. Yes, science based, open minded exploration

46
00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,760
Speaker 1: of what the substance is, what its properties are, and

47
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,440
Speaker 1: then how can those properties conceivably be used to our

48
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,639
Speaker 1: advantage in a non recreational way. Now, before we get started,

49
00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,200
Speaker 1: I want to remind you all where you can find

50
00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:44,799
Speaker 1: us and all the other things that we do a

51
00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,080
Speaker 1: lot of people that we encounter actually think that the

52
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,160
Speaker 1: podcast is the only thing that Stuff to Blow Your

53
00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 1: Mind is, But we actually have blog posts and articles

54
00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 1: that we write every week that are available on stuff

55
00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,400
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. Uh. Robert and I

56
00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,160
Speaker 1: and Joe are also all working for How Stuff Works

57
00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,760
Speaker 1: still and we write articles for the new How Stuff

58
00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:08,400
Speaker 1: Works Now site, and robertson doing videos for them as well. Right,

59
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,680
Speaker 1: what was the last one that was? It was about

60
00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,840
Speaker 1: the god helmet, right, which we've talked about doing on

61
00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 1: the show. Yeah, that's most recent want to come out,

62
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,880
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's generally something kind of weird in science.

63
00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,400
Speaker 1: E and I generally put together one a week, So

64
00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,639
Speaker 1: if you wanna, you know, find out all this other

65
00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,200
Speaker 1: stuff about us. So you just want to engage with

66
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,800
Speaker 1: us directly. We're on social media all over the place.

67
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,160
Speaker 1: You can interact with us on Facebook, Twitter, and Tumbler.

68
00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,160
Speaker 1: And also every Friday at noon Eastern Standard time, we

69
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,760
Speaker 1: do a periscope where you can talk to us for

70
00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,000
Speaker 1: like twenty or thirty minutes. We just hang out in

71
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,119
Speaker 1: front of an iPad and chat with our audience. Hey,

72
00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,640
Speaker 1: and if you want to support the show, here's something

73
00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,040
Speaker 1: you can do. Give us a little love on iTunes

74
00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,600
Speaker 1: if you happen to listen to us through iTunes. We

75
00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,120
Speaker 1: have a lot of reviews on there. A lot of

76
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,839
Speaker 1: them are pretty old. Help us out, help the algorithm,

77
00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 1: give us a little positive review there, Give us a

78
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 1: little love. We'd great really appreciate it. Okay, so let's

79
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,240
Speaker 1: get into M d M. First of all, there's a

80
00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,920
Speaker 1: lot of preconceived notion about this drug, and in particular,

81
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 1: uh we we were talking about this before the show,

82
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,320
Speaker 1: that there's preconceived notions on both sides, right which there's

83
00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,720
Speaker 1: the anti drug side, the sort of uh, you know,

84
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,640
Speaker 1: this has to be legal side, and then there's the

85
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,880
Speaker 1: the the side that's like this is going to expand

86
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,680
Speaker 1: your mind and open up new horizons to you that

87
00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,800
Speaker 1: you weren't at all aware of UM and and change

88
00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,359
Speaker 1: your life side kind of right, Yeah, because yeah, on

89
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 1: one side you have the anti drug one drugs statements

90
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,320
Speaker 1: and then and then yeah, on the recreational side of it,

91
00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,960
Speaker 1: you see basically two different types of messaging, right. You

92
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,719
Speaker 1: see individuals who are perhaps over emphasizing the spiritual qualities

93
00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,039
Speaker 1: of a particular substance, and this goes around the board

94
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,480
Speaker 1: for a number of different drugs. Yeah. Sure, but then

95
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,960
Speaker 1: you also see myths about its origin, myths about what

96
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,160
Speaker 1: it does, mis myths about the potential negative side effects,

97
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,240
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, between all of this, there's certainly

98
00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,400
Speaker 1: a more objective view of what it is, is, where

99
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 1: it came from, and what it can potentially do in

100
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,240
Speaker 1: a beneficial means. So our goal in these episodes is

101
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,120
Speaker 1: going to be to kind of drill down between those

102
00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,200
Speaker 1: lines and debunk some of this stuff or explain some

103
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,120
Speaker 1: of these stuff, some of this stuff a little bit

104
00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,960
Speaker 1: more thoroughly cleanly. And I think a good place for

105
00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,880
Speaker 1: us to start is UM with the journal entries of

106
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,920
Speaker 1: a guy named Alexander Shulgin, who will talk more about later.

107
00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,400
Speaker 1: But he is considered the godfather of ecstasy, the godfather

108
00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,120
Speaker 1: of M d M A uh. And these are his

109
00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,839
Speaker 1: journal entries published in his book Peak Hall about his

110
00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:36,560
Speaker 1: first time after he synthesized M D m A taking it.

111
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,280
Speaker 1: This is, I believe in the seventies. So um, We've

112
00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,279
Speaker 1: got two quotes here. This first one I'm going to read.

113
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,600
Speaker 1: This is from his journal entry on taking a hundred milligrams.

114
00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,400
Speaker 1: He says, M D m A intrigued me because everyone

115
00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,960
Speaker 1: I asked about it who had used it, answered the

116
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 1: question what's it's like in the same way, and they said,

117
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,159
Speaker 1: I don't know. So what happened? They would say nothing?

118
00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 1: And now I understand those answers. I too think nothing happened,

119
00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,520
Speaker 1: But something seemed changed. Before the window opened completely, I

120
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,840
Speaker 1: had some somatic effects, a tingling sensation in the fingers

121
00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 1: and temples, a pleasant sensation that wasn't distracting. However, just

122
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,320
Speaker 1: after that, there was a slight naja and a dizziness

123
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,400
Speaker 1: similar to a little bit too much alcohol. All these

124
00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,800
Speaker 1: details disappeared as I walked outside. My mood was light

125
00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,320
Speaker 1: and happy, but with an underlying conviction that something significant

126
00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 1: was about to happen. There was a change in perspective,

127
00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,440
Speaker 1: both in the near visual field and in the distance.

128
00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,960
Speaker 1: My usually poor vision was sharpened. That's something that's really

129
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,560
Speaker 1: interesting to me. Uh, and that he caught onto that immediately,

130
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,080
Speaker 1: because that's a that's a side effect that isn't that

131
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,839
Speaker 1: isn't well known. I saw details in the distance that

132
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,320
Speaker 1: I could not normally see. After the peak experience had passed,

133
00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,160
Speaker 1: my major state was one of deep relaxation. I felt

134
00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,000
Speaker 1: that I could talk about deep or personal subjects with

135
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,320
Speaker 1: special clarity, and I experienced some of the feeling one

136
00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,039
Speaker 1: has after a second martini, that one is scoorsing brilliantly

137
00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,440
Speaker 1: and with a particularly acute analytical power. So that's that's

138
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,880
Speaker 1: his first Like, hey, he synthesized it. And as we'll

139
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,240
Speaker 1: get into later, he basically always started with with small doses.

140
00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,040
Speaker 1: He I think he starts sometimes with quite a bit

141
00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 1: smaller than a hundred milligrams, but at the hundred milligram

142
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 1: this is where he started to really experience this mental clarity. Yeah,

143
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,280
Speaker 1: the one certainly gets a sense if you've ever heard

144
00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,760
Speaker 1: like an album review where an individual was maybe chewing

145
00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,960
Speaker 1: a little more than they bid off, as if maybe

146
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,360
Speaker 1: the there's less substance to really focus on, and he's

147
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,280
Speaker 1: having to really reach to find it. Um you get

148
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 1: a sense of that at the hundred milligram level. Something

149
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,680
Speaker 1: that's worth keeping in mind about these descriptions, too, is

150
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 1: that Peak Hall was written in the nineties, a good

151
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,520
Speaker 1: twenty years after he took so I'm sure he took

152
00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,280
Speaker 1: his journal entries and kind of spiced him up a

153
00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,040
Speaker 1: little bit, you know, out of a little poetry, all right.

154
00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,240
Speaker 1: So the next entry is from when he tried in

155
00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,800
Speaker 1: d m A at the hundred and twenty milligram level,

156
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,480
Speaker 1: and you'll see a bit of a difference here. Quote.

157
00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,760
Speaker 1: I feel absolutely clean inside, and there is nothing but

158
00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,600
Speaker 1: pure euphoria. I have never felt so great or believed

159
00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:15,280
Speaker 1: this to be possible. The cleanliness, clarity, and marvelous feeling

160
00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,440
Speaker 1: of solid inner strength continued throughout the rest of the

161
00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,960
Speaker 1: day and evening and through the next day. I am

162
00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,280
Speaker 1: overcome by the profundity of the experience and how much

163
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,880
Speaker 1: more powerful it was than previous experiences. For no apparent

164
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,559
Speaker 1: reason other than a continually improving state of being. All

165
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,240
Speaker 1: the next day I felt like a citizen of the

166
00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,120
Speaker 1: universe rather than a citizen of the planet, completely disconnecting

167
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,040
Speaker 1: time and flowing easily from one activity to the next.

168
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,040
Speaker 1: And again these are from Alexander Shulgan's book Peak Hall,

169
00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,640
Speaker 1: which is uh subtitled a chemical love Story. We're we're

170
00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 1: gonna talk more about Shulgan later because he on his

171
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,600
Speaker 1: own is just totally fascinating. But there's another quote that

172
00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,320
Speaker 1: that you put in here that's from that book, which

173
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,480
Speaker 1: is M D m A. It was beginning to be

174
00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,520
Speaker 1: a parent could be all things to all people. And

175
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,319
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting because, uh, it hasn't now or

176
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 1: until until recently with what you know what we're gonna

177
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,080
Speaker 1: be talking about towards the end of these two episodes

178
00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:19,000
Speaker 1: about the I guess medical applications, medical and therapeutic applications,

179
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,320
Speaker 1: but it is, it is all things, you know what.

180
00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,200
Speaker 1: I'll take it back, it's all things to all people

181
00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 1: in that like, everybody kind of brings their own thing

182
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,079
Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, and that's part of the problem as

183
00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,479
Speaker 1: well discussed. That's one of the reasons that that legitimate

184
00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,760
Speaker 1: exploration of M D m A fell out of favor

185
00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:41,000
Speaker 1: because it became this counterculture thing. It became this recreational farm,

186
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,199
Speaker 1: pharmacological vehicle. And I actually have one quick quote that

187
00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,120
Speaker 1: I want to read just to to drive home kind

188
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,360
Speaker 1: of the the other end of the pool. And this

189
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,080
Speaker 1: is from a UK disco DJ, DJ Harvey Born DJ

190
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,120
Speaker 1: born Harvey Bassett. He says, quote, you can't understand the

191
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 1: Blues until you've had your heartbroken, and you can't understand

192
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,160
Speaker 1: my music until you've had group sex on ecstasy. So

193
00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,960
Speaker 1: that that's the kind of quote where it instantly makes

194
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,600
Speaker 1: you think, Okay, maybe I'm a less into this idea

195
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,160
Speaker 1: of m d m A. Is this this pure window

196
00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,120
Speaker 1: into ourself? Um, it helps perpetuate a sort of mythology

197
00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,199
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, and we and we should talk a

198
00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,600
Speaker 1: little about about the mythology because I'm thinking we largely

199
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,400
Speaker 1: have three types of individuals out there. They're the individuals

200
00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,600
Speaker 1: who have some level of experience with m d m A,

201
00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,000
Speaker 1: with ecstasy, molly Adam, whatever you want to call it.

202
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,760
Speaker 1: And then and then their individuals who maybe have never

203
00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,080
Speaker 1: heard of this before. But I think for the most part,

204
00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 1: you're gonna have that group who have encountered it time

205
00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,240
Speaker 1: and time again in movies and on TV shows. So

206
00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,760
Speaker 1: many TV shows, it's become a standard trope it's like

207
00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:49,840
Speaker 1: giving birth to a baby in an elevator. Yeah, it

208
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,440
Speaker 1: really did. I think probably the nineties was one that

209
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,920
Speaker 1: took off the most, um Robert. Robert posted to the

210
00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,320
Speaker 1: again another reason why you should follow us on social media.

211
00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,280
Speaker 1: We occasionally throw out questions the audience for these episodes.

212
00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,000
Speaker 1: Robert asked our audience yesterday, uh for examples of these

213
00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,600
Speaker 1: from TV? And my wife, of all people, it was

214
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,240
Speaker 1: one of the people who posted this example from Beverly

215
00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,240
Speaker 1: Hills nine O two and oh, okay, yeah the when?

216
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,160
Speaker 1: Uh was his name Brandon? Was he the main character

217
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:23,320
Speaker 1: on I O two and No? I can't remember the Yeah,

218
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,280
Speaker 1: so that's the same by the Bell Show. Okay, yeah,

219
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,120
Speaker 1: I get this. Uh yeah, no, no two and no.

220
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,040
Speaker 1: He dated this girl for a little while. He was

221
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,880
Speaker 1: like kind of a bad girl, wore a leather jacket

222
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,680
Speaker 1: and had bleached hair, and like, of course, like she

223
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,960
Speaker 1: wanted to do M D M A. And so there's

224
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,920
Speaker 1: a whole episode about about his experience with that and

225
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,640
Speaker 1: and that, you know, you know, frankly, I think a

226
00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,160
Speaker 1: lot of these TV examples perpetuate one of one side

227
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,720
Speaker 1: or the other of these stereotypes that we've been talking

228
00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:55,320
Speaker 1: about Yeah, it's either like the crazy rave person. Instantly

229
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,960
Speaker 1: think of the the episode of Space, classic British show,

230
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:00,880
Speaker 1: we had the ray Or character. I think he was

231
00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,079
Speaker 1: like a bike courier. It's his name is Tires. Re

232
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,200
Speaker 1: watched this episode last night because it's one of my

233
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,120
Speaker 1: favorite episodes of Space, and when we all day doing

234
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,440
Speaker 1: the research for this, I just had Tires in my head.

235
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,040
Speaker 1: And the scene with Nick Frost all in like army

236
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,720
Speaker 1: gear at a rave doing ecstasy and kind of like

237
00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,559
Speaker 1: put pointing fake guns at the audience and shooting at them.

238
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,360
Speaker 1: And then he like puts a fake gun in his

239
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,679
Speaker 1: mouth and everybody's clapping. It's so ridiculous. But yeah, that's

240
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 1: the other side, which is the like, this is so amazing.

241
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,840
Speaker 1: It makes you feel so great. And even at the

242
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 1: very end, Tires the bike courier like he leaves and

243
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,520
Speaker 1: the voiceover says, my job is done here or my

244
00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,760
Speaker 1: work is done here. So you have that, and then

245
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,280
Speaker 1: you have sort of the comic oops, I took ecstasy

246
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,960
Speaker 1: kind of trope. And then uh, an increasingly dominant trope

247
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,040
Speaker 1: that that I see in a lot of series these days.

248
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,840
Speaker 1: Is Um is one of more of a shamanistic ecstasy

249
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,319
Speaker 1: experience where the characters are are learning something about themselves.

250
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,960
Speaker 1: I think, uh, there's an episode of six ft Under

251
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 1: that dealt with this, especially where I think, I remember

252
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,520
Speaker 1: this is David who takes it right, Maybe more than

253
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,200
Speaker 1: one character because I think the mother, Oh yeah, she

254
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 1: accidentally takes it too. Yeah, it's been a while and

255
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,479
Speaker 1: she ends up having this profound experience and this experiences

256
00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 1: this openness with the world, which which I think Tie

257
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 1: is in rather nicely with some of the the objective

258
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,400
Speaker 1: material that we're going to look at here. Yeah, yeah,

259
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,240
Speaker 1: but but yeah, there's a we have a small list.

260
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,680
Speaker 1: This is not everything. I'm sure there's far more than this. Yeah, yeah,

261
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,079
Speaker 1: but but here just a few. We've seen ecstasy M

262
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 1: d M A play in two episodes of Transparent. Excellent show. Yeah,

263
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,800
Speaker 1: the Carrie Diaries that like, it's like Sex in the

264
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,280
Speaker 1: City prequel, right, she's in high school. I think, how

265
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:54,319
Speaker 1: to make it in America, Orphan black Skins. It's always

266
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,120
Speaker 1: stunning in Philadelphia, peep show. Um, you're a big fan.

267
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 1: I still haven't seen people you'd recommen did it to me? Yes, yeah, yeah,

268
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,920
Speaker 1: there's I can't remember precisely what happened, but I know

269
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,120
Speaker 1: I do remember what happened, and I can't mention it here.

270
00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:15,280
Speaker 1: But so there's Peep Show, Workaholics, Californication Party Down the

271
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:20,120
Speaker 1: episode is I like that one East Founding down um

272
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,240
Speaker 1: looking and uh yeah, just so many more. Yeah, and

273
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,520
Speaker 1: it's funny. A lot of those examples are kind of

274
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 1: more recent actually, and and I gravitate to that nine

275
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,080
Speaker 1: O two on O example because that's what I remember

276
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,760
Speaker 1: in the nineties, the like kind of like after school

277
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,280
Speaker 1: special plot that's like, alright, somebody's gonna get you to

278
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:41,840
Speaker 1: try to take this and they're gonna tell you that

279
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,280
Speaker 1: it's gonna feel so good, but watch what really happens.

280
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,440
Speaker 1: You know, Like before we came into the studio, is

281
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 1: talking to Joe about this, and Joe says to me, oh,

282
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,160
Speaker 1: are you guys gonna talk about the myth that it

283
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,240
Speaker 1: puts holes in your brain? And I was like, I've

284
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 1: never even heard of that, And and sure enough, like

285
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 1: Joe had heard this whole myth growing up. You know,

286
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,800
Speaker 1: you take ecstasy and literally two through your brain matter apparently,

287
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:06,880
Speaker 1: so which, as far as I can tell from the research,

288
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,600
Speaker 1: is not true, right, It's interesting though that in just

289
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,280
Speaker 1: looking at the television portrayals we see this, uh, this

290
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,880
Speaker 1: change from the the anti drug messaging. It's just this

291
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,280
Speaker 1: is something evil and awful, stay away from it, to

292
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,440
Speaker 1: where it is portrayed as more of a like a

293
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,040
Speaker 1: rite of passage, as this really more of a shamanistic experience.

294
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,280
Speaker 1: Even if the character is engaging in the shamanistic experience,

295
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 1: are not prepared for the experience. Yeah, I guess, like

296
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,160
Speaker 1: what I would like to see a move more towards

297
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,360
Speaker 1: and from reading the research on this, definitely, like the

298
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 1: scholars who are studying this seemed to be in this

299
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,920
Speaker 1: area is understanding the chemical and the chemistry and how

300
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,400
Speaker 1: it interacts with human biology, as if like the brain

301
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 1: is like a machine run on chemicals, which it is,

302
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,560
Speaker 1: you know, and how those are, how those kind of

303
00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 1: work together. Right. That seems like a much more mature

304
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 1: approach to this to me than than one side or

305
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 1: the other. And and uh and hopefully we can kind

306
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,160
Speaker 1: of you know, bring that here. But also obviously we're

307
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,400
Speaker 1: gonna dip our toes into into the pop culture examples

308
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,960
Speaker 1: because that's what we're all familiar with. All right. Well,

309
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 1: on that note, let's let's go ahead and dive in

310
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,800
Speaker 1: when we're talking about m d M A and ecstasy.

311
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,640
Speaker 1: First of all, ecstasy. Ecstasy is of course the street variant, right,

312
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,920
Speaker 1: this is the pill version, and generally speaking there's m

313
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,760
Speaker 1: d m A in there, but there are probably other

314
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 1: properties in there as well. Yeah, I mean, let's admit it, like,

315
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,760
Speaker 1: who knows who's making this stuff unless you're making it yourself. Yeah,

316
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 1: it's coming from a lab and another continent. Yeah, it's

317
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 1: it's kind of an unknown quantity. One thing that was

318
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,600
Speaker 1: interesting that I saw in the research, though, is that

319
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,400
Speaker 1: m d m A, among many street drugs, is known

320
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,000
Speaker 1: for its purity, uh, and that it wasn't until I believe,

321
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 1: like the late nineties or no, mid nineties that uh,

322
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,240
Speaker 1: the purity was in question. When they would test it,

323
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,680
Speaker 1: it was, you know, significantly lower than but since the

324
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 1: mid two thousand's when they've been testing it, it's always been.

325
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,520
Speaker 1: So I don't want to perpetuate like this fear that like, oh, yes,

326
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,879
Speaker 1: somebody cut like PCP into your m d M A

327
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,800
Speaker 1: or what who knows whatever? You know, all right, so

328
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:14,400
Speaker 1: let's talk about it. M d n A the substance itself,

329
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,040
Speaker 1: m d m A stands for methylene dioxy meth amphetamine,

330
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,480
Speaker 1: and it's a synthetic psychoactive drug. It's chemically similar to

331
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 1: the stimulant meth amphetamine and the hallucinogen mescaline. It produces

332
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:34,359
Speaker 1: feelings of increased energy, euphoria, emotional warmth, distortions in time, perception,

333
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 1: tactile experiences. Interestingly enough, you don't see these um these

334
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,680
Speaker 1: experiences described generally as as states of ecstasy. Like, it's

335
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,320
Speaker 1: really kind of a misnomer to even call it that.

336
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,399
Speaker 1: It's more euphoric, it's more openness. It's more like the

337
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,199
Speaker 1: self becomes permeable and uh, you're allowed to interact with

338
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 1: the world a little more. That's another myth that I

339
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,960
Speaker 1: think is perpetuated by t t V and movies a

340
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,560
Speaker 1: little bit too about it, right, is that like everybody

341
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,960
Speaker 1: just wants to have sex the minute to take M

342
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,439
Speaker 1: d m A because it's ecstasy, right, And that's not

343
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,760
Speaker 1: necessarily the case. There was another TV example which I've

344
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,640
Speaker 1: mentioned this show several times on on on our show

345
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 1: Uh Millennium than the nine nineties show starring Lance Hendrickson

346
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 1: the very first episode of that show, I believe or

347
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,399
Speaker 1: maybe it was like the third or fourth featured a

348
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,120
Speaker 1: couple who took M D M A and they were

349
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:29,879
Speaker 1: just so out of it and so in love with

350
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 1: each other that a serial killer was able to capture

351
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,520
Speaker 1: them and kill them both. You know, it was just ridiculous.

352
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:39,119
Speaker 1: But so anyways, it's important to remember that this drug, basically,

353
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,560
Speaker 1: it's a central nervous system stimulant right when you get

354
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,879
Speaker 1: down to it, and UH, it is particularly connected to

355
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,760
Speaker 1: the serotonin transporters in our brain. We're gonna drill down

356
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,760
Speaker 1: and look at that further later. Let's let's continue on

357
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,440
Speaker 1: with the basics. Yeah, it's so as I've said, it's

358
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,720
Speaker 1: a it's a unique combination of both stimulant and UH

359
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,879
Speaker 1: and a psychatoman eddic UH substance. So some people actually

360
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: tend to classify it as a enactogen or an empathogen,

361
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,359
Speaker 1: all due to its power to induce emotional communion again,

362
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 1: this sense of oneness, emotional openness in the form of

363
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:21,320
Speaker 1: empathy and sympathy. Yeah, so it's pretty popular, and we

364
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,719
Speaker 1: know this because not just for from it showing up

365
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 1: on TV and movies, but actually populations surveys show that

366
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 1: it's the third most widely used illegal drug in the

367
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 1: world after cannabis and cocaine, which surprised me. I guess I,

368
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,600
Speaker 1: I guess I was surprised that cocaine was so much

369
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,080
Speaker 1: higher too. But um, uh, well, I mean the the

370
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: various effects that we've discussed, I mean, without getting into

371
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 1: any of the legal side of it, or the or

372
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 1: the ramifications like who wouldn't want to feel that way?

373
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 1: If someone said, hey, let me just ask you one

374
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,359
Speaker 1: quick question, would you like to feel like this? And

375
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 1: you would say yes, I'd like to hear some more

376
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 1: information about what you're proposed. Yeah, exactly, Like it's like, uh,

377
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 1: somebody handing up pamphlets at the trade station. Yeah, yeah, no,

378
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,880
Speaker 1: I agree. I was talking with a friend last night

379
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 1: actually who experienced using m d m A in the seventies,

380
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,240
Speaker 1: actually around the same time the children when was first

381
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 1: experimenting with it, and uh, and that was kind of

382
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 1: the conclusion that you know, he came to is that

383
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 1: you know, well, people would say, you know, people even

384
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 1: before there was a usage of it for psychoanalysts and

385
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 1: therapy applications, they would say, well do you want to

386
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 1: feel good? You know, and and and lots of people

387
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 1: out there, don't want to feel sad, don't want to

388
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 1: be angry, don't want to be lonely. Sure, I want

389
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 1: to feel good. But as we'll get to this isn't

390
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,920
Speaker 1: a particularly addictive drug either. So it's not like cocaine

391
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,400
Speaker 1: in the sense where it's like you're gonna feel good

392
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,880
Speaker 1: and then you're gonna have to feed in that monkey, right,

393
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 1: you know. Um, it's like this is more of a

394
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 1: situation where you're gonna feel really good and then you're

395
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 1: probably gonna want to take it again and uh a

396
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 1: month or two, Yeah, yeah, exactly, maybe never depending you know.

397
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 1: It's um, yeah, well we'll get into those properties. In fact,

398
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 1: to give you a sort of a broad look at

399
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 1: how many people have potentially done it, European Monitoring the

400
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 1: the European Monitoring Center for Drugs and Drug Addiction surveyed

401
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 1: all of Europe for how much they had used m

402
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: d m A, how much the population used m d

403
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 1: A m D M A, and they found that people

404
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 1: between the ages of sixteen and sixty five, eight point

405
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: six percent of them acknowledged that they had used it,

406
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 1: but like you said, the majority only used it a

407
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 1: few times. Regular uses very rare it's very rare that

408
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 1: somebody is taking ecstasy all the time. The vast majority

409
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 1: of individuals seem to have taken it ten times or less. Yeah, exactly,

410
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 1: that was the average. All right, So let's get into

411
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: the origin story. This M d M A is a

412
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 1: synthetic substance. It does not occur in nature. So you

413
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 1: can't go pick M d m A in a field

414
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 1: of flowers, right. A shaman watering in the woods did

415
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,239
Speaker 1: not discover M d m A m The monk of

416
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: picking mushrooms in then the hills didn't discover m d

417
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 1: m A. M B m A was created in a laboratory,

418
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,879
Speaker 1: in a very interesting laboratory situation. Actually, yeah, so the

419
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 1: origins of M dumay only go back to around nineteen twelve,

420
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 1: and specifically you have to go to Uh to the

421
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 1: laboratories of the German pharmaceutical company Mark. It's here that

422
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 1: German chemist and Tom Kolish Uh was actually discovered the substance.

423
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 1: And Uh, it's we know next to nothing about this individual.

424
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: We know that he died in nineteen sixteen, but that's

425
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: about it. Um. We don't know when he was born.

426
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 1: Not a lot of forthcoming biological biographical information about him. Um,

427
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 1: and there's this really interesting study that we read for

428
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: for this. That was all the study was about, was

429
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 1: drilling down, going through all of Mark's archives to try

430
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: to figure out what the exact origin story was. And

431
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: you know, basically they came up with what we're telling you.

432
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 1: It wasn't a whole lot more on the record. Yeah,

433
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: it's a it's a wonderful paper. Will link to a

434
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 1: copy of the full paper on the landing page for

435
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: this episode of Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

436
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,959
Speaker 1: But it was published in two thousand six in the

437
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 1: German journal uh Fharma Z and the the English title

438
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: is the Origin of M d M. A Ecstasy Separating

439
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: the facts from the myth uh and uh some of

440
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: the myths. Just to get this out out there, there's

441
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: a there are a couple of different myths relating to

442
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: different actual chemists, one of whom was a Nobel Prize winner.

443
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: Uh So, a lot of people like to gravitate towards that.

444
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: They want there to be like a like a more

445
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: fantastic origins. Yeah, Like like they want to know the

446
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: guy responsible as opposed to uh, pour Anton here who's

447
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: just completely lost to history. Um, the soldier myth is

448
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: also very uh attractive. There's this misconception that that it was,

449
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: you know, it's some sort of an army uh project,

450
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: either a U. S. Army project or or or a

451
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: German military project trying to create some sort of you know,

452
00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: soldier enhancement drug. And while it's true that pretty much

453
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: that the military has always been interested in ways to

454
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: of course improve soldier performance, and certainly in the age

455
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: of aviation, there's always been an interest in trying to

456
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: keep your soldiers awake, developed developed stimulants, etcetera. But there's

457
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: basically this myth originates from just confusing the origin, saying

458
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: all right, nineteen twelve Germany and then thinking about the

459
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: US army experiments in the nineteen fifties and getting it

460
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 1: all kind of mixed up, because ultimately, ecstasy is probably

461
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: not the drug of choice when it comes to sending

462
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 1: soldiers out into the field. It's it's probably not what

463
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: you want to be giving people in the field when

464
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 1: their job is to kill people. Yeah, you don't want

465
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: them theories found openness with the world. Yeah. Well, And

466
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: I think it's also worth pointing out that as far

467
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: as I can tell from the research. The only application

468
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: for military use that it is now being used is

469
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: for soldiers coming back with PTSD. That's right, and that

470
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: there are soldiers who are being recommended for clinical trials

471
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: of using m d m A to treat TSD. But

472
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: we'll get into that in the next episode. So if

473
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: you look back at the original German patents, and that's

474
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: certainly what they did in this two thousand and six

475
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: U Pharmacy Journal paper. You look back at these original patents,

476
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: the first one mentions no specific purpose or medical indication

477
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: such as the use of as an appetite suppressant for

478
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: soldiers as is sometimes cited. It was just a quote

479
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: for sie dural patent for compounds which are important key

480
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: precursors for therapeutics. And in the second patent, m d

481
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: m A is mentioned only as a byproduct and chemical

482
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: intermediate in one in in the in one of the

483
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: pathways that started from saffrol, that's a sassafras derived precursor

484
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: to m d m A, also a precursor to an

485
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: insecticide and a fragrance. So essentially, you know, these chemists

486
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: are just they're exploring and they're they're creating this road

487
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: map of chemical interactions and along the way, you know,

488
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: they're in the car Anton there and he says, hey,

489
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: that's M D M A right there. I don't know

490
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: anything about it, but there it is, and it's kind

491
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: of it's noted in a ledger, and then everyone keeps going.

492
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 1: Um careers at these chemical companies in the early twentieth

493
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: century sound fascinating to me, both both Mark and then

494
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: reading later. Dow Chemical is another place where psychedelics were

495
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: developed under the auspices of commercial of pharmaceuticals, and especially

496
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 1: when you're talking German chemists, because some of the more

497
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: profound advancements in chemistry have come out of German chemistry

498
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: labs in in the early part of the the twice but

499
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: who knows, like they were for the most part, like

500
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: you said, they're trying to design pesticides or something. Yeah,

501
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: and it just shows up as a curiosity. In fact,

502
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: um Mark's patent number two seven does not patent M

503
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: D M A as a substance, so there's seemed little

504
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: or no interest in it, so it was effectively shelved.

505
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: It was not tested pharmacal pharmacologically, and as such nobody

506
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: knew what it did. Its side effects were. It wasn't

507
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: until nineteen seven, and that's when Mark's Dr Max Oberlin,

508
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: and we don't know much about him either. He was

509
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 1: born in eight and we don't know when he died.

510
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: According to the pharmacy paper that were referenced earlier, but

511
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: he resumed study of M d M A and observed

512
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 1: its quote pure sympathetic effects and noted that it should

513
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: be explored, though again it was shelved due to the

514
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: high costs of saffral methyl mein. So we don't have

515
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: a lot of details. But Overland probably didn't conduct experiments

516
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: with humans, but we just don't know the details of

517
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: what his research methods were. But somehow he knew that

518
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: there was something empathic about it. And this is where

519
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: I threw this out on Facebook privately. But I think

520
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: there's a lot of of potential here because we have

521
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: the German chemists creating all these crazy uh and and

522
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: highly influential substances. They're accidentally creating M d M A.

523
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: Imagine if you you had a sort of a cabaret era,

524
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: pre war period piece, and and here's this chemist who

525
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: introduces very fictionally um M d M A into the

526
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: cabaret era club scene. Yeah, he's you're right, it's a

527
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: German madmen. Yeah. Like he's working in like a kind

528
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: of stodgy chemical company by day, but then at night

529
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: he's he's slipping people. Yeah. So, if anybody out there

530
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: is listening and you're trying to develop a show for AMC,

531
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: we got a pitch for you. Yeah, this is our pitch.

532
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: Pick it up. Well, we'll talk, we'll talk. Well, the

533
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: problem with Coalition and Oberlin is that they didn't just

534
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: make this stuff in their own backyard and take it themselves,

535
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: which is what the secondary since this is that we

536
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: know of holding out hope, there must Yeah, there must

537
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: have been something between Oberlin in and Alexander Alexander Shulgan,

538
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: who we've talked about already. H but I'll expand upon. Yeah,

539
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: as far as we know, until AMC fills in the hole,

540
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: it's got to be a Yeah, it just seems that

541
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: m d m A just lingered and obscure four decades.

542
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: What if the reason why we don't know when Max

543
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: Oberlin died is because he's still alive and the m

544
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: d m A has been keeping him alive. He's over

545
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: a hundred years old, fueled by ecstasy. No, that's totally

546
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: not possible based on the research that we saw. Alright,

547
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: So Alexander Shulgan, this guy is quoted, like I said

548
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: at the top, as being the godfather of ecstasy. And

549
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: here's why. Sulgan, like I said, basically cooked this stuff

550
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: in his backyard and tested it on himself. And before

551
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: I get to that, I think that we need to

552
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: do a little bit of a setup on who Shilgan was.

553
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: He passed away unfortunately last year, but who he was

554
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: and what his methodology was and why he was the

555
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: guy to do this. So Shulgan was born in California.

556
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: He went to Harvard when he was fifteen years old. Okay,

557
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: so he's one of these wonder congeniuses. He drops out

558
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: so he can join the U. S. Navy. Uh. And

559
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: he claimed that while he was in the Navy, he

560
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: memorized the Encyclopedia on Chemistry. Uh, and went back got

561
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: his formal education finished, got a doctorate in biochemistry from

562
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: the University of California. In he goes and works for

563
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: the Dow Chemical Company. So it sounds somewhat similar to

564
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: the Mark situation, right. Uh. He is eventually working they're

565
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: producing pesticides, and he invents this stuff called zektrin, which

566
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: was advertised as the world's first biodegradable pesticide, and it

567
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: went over really well, and basically Dow was like, alright,

568
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: do whatever you want now, like we're so happy with

569
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: your results on that, go go to it. Wonder we

570
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: wonder what you cook up next. Literally kind of a

571
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: Walter White scenario here. Uh, and and he Shelgan says, Okay, well,

572
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to devote all of my studies to psychedelic chemistry.

573
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: And he starts publishing in Nature and Journal of Organic

574
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: Chemistry talking about all of these drugs that he's inventing

575
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: in Dow's labs. And when they find out what he's

576
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: up to, their board of directors is like, no, this

577
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: is gonna be bad publicity for us to keep him on.

578
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: This is the fifties. Um. So that so the the

579
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: full counterard culture collapse has not occurred yet, but clearly

580
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: there the roots are already present. Yeah, And so he

581
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: eventually leaves the company in nineteen sixty six and he says,

582
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: you know what I said at my own home lab,

583
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: and uh, work out if he's gonna freelance out of

584
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: the house and basically he's a consultant to research labs

585
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: and hospitals. Okay, but here's what he basically did. He

586
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: invented hundreds of psychedelics, testing each new compound on himself.

587
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: And the way that he did it was he would

588
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: take the minimum amount required to have an effect, and

589
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: then he would gradually increase the dosage. So those those

590
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: quotes from his book peak all that we read at

591
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: the beginning of the show. That's his typical process, right,

592
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: is that he would go, Okay, so I need to

593
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: take this many milligrams for to feel any effect, and

594
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: then I will gradually increase the dosage. And I think

595
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: that's a a good lesson there for everyone, even if

596
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: you're just dealing with something like like alcohol I legally

597
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: consumable product or coffee. Don't just go diving in and

598
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: getting the double triple espress though it starts, and work

599
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: your way up and see see what works well. Schilgn's

600
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: a fascinating character because I mean, so he tested all

601
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,719
Speaker 1: of these psychedelics out on himself, and he it was

602
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: like very fastidious about how he kept his his notes

603
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: as journals all this, but then to confirm his data

604
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: what he would do is he would share the substances

605
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: with his wife, Ann, and he would find out what

606
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: Ann's experiences were, and he would record those and then

607
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: if they determined that further study was required, they invited

608
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: a quote research group of friends to come over and

609
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: they would do these sessions for like maybe two or

610
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: three days where they would test their reactions to whatever

611
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: he had invented that week, right, and and maybe it

612
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: was M D M A, maybe it was something else.

613
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, there's hundreds. Those must have

614
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: been interesting, um research groups to attend, because I guess

615
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: you probably, I mean, he probably had some idea what

616
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: to expect. But you're just you're you're very much a psychonag.

617
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: You're very much them, I think. And Uh, there's a

618
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: documentary about Shilgun I believe is on YouTube and they

619
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: talk about these parties quite a bit, and I believe

620
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: I might I might be wrong here. I wrote about

621
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: Shilgun once before for for How Stuff Works, and will

622
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: link to that as well on the podcast page. But um,

623
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: my understanding was that children had one rule, which was

624
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: basically that well, first of all, they weren't allowed to

625
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: take any medications for a couple of days beforehands, I

626
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't be still in any kind of complications. Yeah, but

627
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: they weren't allowed to have sex with people that they

628
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: weren't already established in a relationship with, So they would

629
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: be there for two to three days and whatever it

630
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: was that they were taking in. And his first name,

631
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: his first name is Alexander, but everybody called him Sasha,

632
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: uh Sasha. Basically their rule was like, no, you can't

633
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: just go off with somebody else. We don't want any

634
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: kind of drama being reintroduced to this thing. But again,

635
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: another great MC show in the making. I think, I

636
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: think one that we definitely have far more biographical information

637
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: to go. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot. Yeah uh so, okay,

638
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: children created over two hundred unique drugs to stimulate the

639
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: mind doing this, he tested everything, speeding it up, slowing

640
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 1: it down, tapping into empathy. The d A actually gave

641
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: his garden laboratory a license to produce Schedule one substances

642
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: so he could be an expert in their cases. Right,

643
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: he was like their go to guy for stuff they

644
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: would find out in the field and he would he

645
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: would consult with them. In fact, I don't have the

646
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: notes here in front of me. But he was like

647
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: best friends with the guy who is the head of

648
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: his local d A chapter. They worked very closely together.

649
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: So we have a really curious individual here, one who

650
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: is he seems to exist right at the crossroads between

651
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: the counterculture of drug exploration and the hard nosed you know,

652
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: precursor to what would ultimately become the War on drugs. Right, Yeah, absolutely,

653
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: I mean he my understanding his position was basically like,

654
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: I'm just creating this stuff and I'm testing it for

655
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: educational and scientific purposes. What people do with it commercially

656
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: is up to them, and it's not his responsibility if

657
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: something goes wrong. Um. So that brings us to m

658
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: d m A because he was criticized highly for not

659
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: only creating resynthesizing m D m A. He didn't create it.

660
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: It was created at Mark, but publishing how to make

661
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: it and and uh letting letting other people know, you know,

662
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: basically the recipe. Yeah, I mean, he's just to go

663
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: back to the road analogy. He is mapping the chemical Highway,

664
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: and you don't have to go down every road. He's

665
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: not saying drive down here, you don't have to go there. Yeah,

666
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: but this is the map so Shilgun and M d

667
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: M A. He first synthesized it in nineteen sixty five,

668
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: but he didn't try it. So actually, if you look

669
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: at the numbers there, he was still at DOW at

670
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: the time that he first synthesized it, but he didn't

671
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: try it. Then again, I think there was like a

672
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: what what is this for? Right kind of thing? Uh

673
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: And then in the nineteen seventies he heard about it's

674
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: quote special effect from a friend, and this makes me

675
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: wonder to what extent there is there there is a

676
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: history something between, you know, between it's it's supposed to

677
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: disappearance and what somebody was making it in the background

678
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: and using it. Yeah. Uh, so he resynthesizes it and

679
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: tests it on himself in this usual manner that I

680
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 1: described in September of nineteen seventy six, and that's where

681
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: we got those journal notes that we we we read

682
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: you earlier from Peak Hall and along with a guy

683
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: named David Nichols, he publishes the first paper on the

684
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: pharmacological action of M d M A and human beings.

685
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: And this is why people sometimes refer to him either

686
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: as the father of m d M A or the

687
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: godfather of M D m. A. Um. Peacall is his

688
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: his his most widely known book, and it stands for

689
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: Fennel ethel a means I have known and loved And

690
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: it's sort of part memoir, part cookbook on how to

691
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: make these drugs and includes instructions on how to synthesize

692
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: all the things in there there. I believe there's like

693
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: a hundred and seventy nine different substances in it. And

694
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: then he followed this up with a book T Call,

695
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 1: which is tripped to means I've known and loved, similar

696
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: kind of thing, just looking at a different based group. Um.

697
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: But it got to the point where you know, these

698
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: books were published in there widely known. I first heard

699
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: about Shulgun I don't know, maybe nineties six or something

700
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: like that, so I think, like you know, pecoll was

701
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: published in the early nineties, so it had been out

702
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: for a little while by them, but I first heard

703
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: about it like hanging out with some guys at M

704
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: I T who like, had founded on the Internet, and

705
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: we're talking about how they were all like engineers or

706
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: chemistry a years and trying to figure out how they

707
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: were going to cook this stuff up because they were

708
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: fascinated by this guy. Um, it's like the chemical necronomicon. Yeah, yeah,

709
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: totally um. And so you can understand why, like any time,

710
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: if he gave a word of praise, even the slightest

711
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: praise to a drug in these books or any of

712
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: his other writings, it was almost guaranteed that it would

713
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: gain popularity. So this also came with media scrutiny and

714
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: outrage and that this guy had created this horrible thing

715
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: and was destroying the world. But like I said, he

716
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 1: believed his research should be openly available. This guy was

717
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: like like I said, like peakal totally available online. He

718
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: wasn't in it for the money because of the educational reasons,

719
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: for the purposes of people being able to learn from it.

720
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: And when you interviews with this guy, especially video interviews

721
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: that I've seen online, first of all, he seems like

722
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: this such a tender, genuine guy. But also beard. Yeah,

723
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: he's got a very He looks like what you would expect.

724
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 1: He kind of wears like Hawaiian short sleeve shirts and

725
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: and has a huge white beard. But he's also just

726
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: so smart and so fascinated with just the world of

727
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: chemistry and and and putting all the parts together in

728
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 1: his head. You can see the gears going when he's

729
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 1: talking about it. So he it's easy to want to

730
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: compare him to people like Timothy Leary or Lily But

731
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: but his focus, uh was was was almost exclusively on

732
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: the chemistry on that chemical map, not what can I

733
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: do with it to speak to beings from another dimension

734
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: or anything of that. Yeah, I didn't get that impression,

735
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: although you know, he was certainly continuing to create new

736
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: stuff and tested on himself, I think probably up until

737
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: he died in two thousand and fourteen. I think I

738
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: think it was lung cancer that that caused him to

739
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: pass away. But um in the whole d A thing

740
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: flipped and agents rated his home and lab, probably because

741
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: of the publication of Pekle, revoked his license and find

742
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: him twenty five thousand dollars, So that kind of relationship

743
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: sort of went away, although I'm sure probably behind the

744
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: scenes there were still guys coming to him and being like,

745
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: we don't understand this particular substance because he's the foremost

746
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: expert in the field, like the Hannibal Lecter of the

747
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: d A. You know, like they're they're like, we don't

748
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: we don't get these chemical compounds, and they they're not

749
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: supposed to talk to him, but they go out and

750
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: visit him on their right. I mean in that to

751
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: sort of go back to our Detective episode we did

752
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: a few months back. He's in that shamanistic role. He's

753
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: on the edge, he's between the worlds, And who do

754
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: you go to and you want to understand the other world,

755
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,479
Speaker 1: you go to the shaman absolute. In fact, another person

756
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: who I mentioned on this show quite a bit, Warren Ellis,

757
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: has adapted Shulgin into some of his writings. Believe there's

758
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: an Iron Man comic out there in which iron Man

759
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: is having sort of like a crisis of confidence and

760
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: he goes and visits a Shulgin like figure at his

761
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: a state and sit down and talk about, you know,

762
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: the future of chemistry and technology together. Interesting. Yeah, all right,

763
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's time we take a quick

764
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: break and when we when we come back, we're going

765
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: to get into um the specifics of what M. D

766
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: M A does to the mind of to the body,

767
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: the pros, the cons, Yeah, debunk the myths. Let's get

768
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: down to the nitty gritty. All right, we're back. So

769
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: what does M. D M A do and how does

770
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: it do it? Well, we're gonna try to not get

771
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: too lost in the details here, because you're ultimately talking

772
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 1: about chemistry and bio chemy street and you can really

773
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 1: go down the dep end. It's certainly above my head.

774
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: And that was one thing when I was looking at

775
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: the research, which was kind of Okay, how do we

776
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: translate this for our audience into something that's digestible. And

777
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: my rule of thumb was sort of like, if I'm

778
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: reading this in my eyes started glossing over and I

779
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 1: can't figure out what it is, it might be best

780
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 1: to sort of try to paraphrase that in another way,

781
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I mean just to read a bit

782
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: from that German paper that I referenced earlier, like a

783
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: very sort of clinical description of what m d M

784
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: A does is as follows. Quote. M d M AS

785
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 1: effects mainly result from an increased synaptic availability of serotonin

786
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 1: five ht based on serotonin reuptake inhibition and serotonin release

787
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 1: from pre synaptic storage. Is The stimulant and emotional effects

788
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: are mainly produced by the acute release of five h D,

789
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: while the hallucinogenic effects of m d M A are

790
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: mainly evoked by direct interactions with post synaptic five HT

791
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: to A receptors similar to last masculine, etcetera. Right, so

792
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: this is what you talked about earlier. The m d

793
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: m A sort of balances the stimulant effects of methamphetamines

794
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: with the hallucinogenic effects of mescaline. Right, to break it

795
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: down a little more, Okay, you have you're talking about euphoria,

796
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: blood pressure, um, effects on your you know, your appetite,

797
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: your attention. These are all regulated by a group of

798
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: neurotransmitters in just the normal non ecstasy taking body and brain.

799
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: So the biogenic amines and the monoamine neurotransmitters. So normally

800
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: neurons communicate with each other and they fire impulses through

801
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: the brain via the neurotransmitters. You can think of this

802
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: is it's kind of like the bank tellers. Right, Oh,

803
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: you need you need to take so much out to

804
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 1: take care of this. All right, let me do the paperwork.

805
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: Here you go, here's the cash balances this stuff out

806
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: for you, or at least it's supposed to write, right.

807
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: M d M A is more like a Robin Hood

808
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 1: bank robber going into the bank and saying, actually, I

809
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: have some different I wanted what we're going to do.

810
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: So m D M A release increases the levels of

811
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: the monoamine neurotransmit There's dopamine UH, nero repineprin, and serotonin

812
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: in the synaps. It dumps them into into the synaps

813
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: in quantities quality in quantities much larger than those seen

814
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: with cocaine. But it releases much more serotonin and much

815
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: less dopamine UH than amphetamines. So this results in a

816
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: decrease in aggressiveness and increase in body temperature and a

817
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: relatively low addiction potential, right, which we mentioned earlier. Right,

818
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: most people who have used m D M A at

819
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,959
Speaker 1: the most ten as many times, because how many times

820
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: can you just robbed the bank? Right? Well? Yeah, And

821
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: as we'll get into, there's after effects that that decrease

822
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 1: the positive effects and increase the negative effects of taking

823
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: m DMAGE. And I feel like a lot of it's

824
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: very you know, it's very zen that idea that experiences

825
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: in life for this pendulum, And and you're gonna have

826
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: extremes on both side. And the further you swing the

827
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: pendulum over in one direction, the further it has the

828
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: potential to swing back in the other So, yeah, my

829
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: friend who I mentioned earlier, who took this stuff in

830
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 1: the seventies. His example was that, like you know, shaman's

831
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: when they take hallucinogens, they're clearly they weren't making m

832
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: d M A and labs and taking this stuff, but

833
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: things similar to it. It's not like they were taking

834
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: it every day, right there. They take it maybe once

835
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: a year, and there's an elaborate ritual and they give

836
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: themselves the time to come down off of it, and

837
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: they give it reverence. Right uh and and I just

838
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 1: exactly right, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, it's swinging. Uh sorry,

839
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: what is it? The past fire thing? And we'll talk

840
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: about the why dance club culture plays into this. Yeah, yeah,

841
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: it has a purpose huge yeah. Okay, So what are

842
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 1: there it's immediate effects? Well, first of all, a typical

843
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: street dose I guess is around a hundred and twenty

844
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: five milligrams in a tablet. Yeah, I've also seen it

845
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: as low as a hundred but okay, yeah, which is

846
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,479
Speaker 1: around what was taking it at um and most people

847
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: ingested orally, but others have uh taken something called m

848
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: d M A bomb, which I hadn't heard of before

849
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 1: reading about this, But apparently you take the equivalent of

850
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: like two to three tablets worth, you wrap it up

851
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: in paper and swallow that, so you get a much

852
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: higher dosage all at once. Uh. And the other way

853
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: to get quicker results is to either snort it or

854
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: to inject it um. This has quicker results, but then

855
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: it also has worst effects during the calm down. So

856
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: what are those effects? All? Right? First of all, it

857
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: increases your body temperature. Sometimes it gives you not hypothermia,

858
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: hyper thermia, so your body temperature starts going up a lot.

859
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: That's why, like all the stereotypical examples of ravers taking

860
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: M D M A, you see them drinking walker all

861
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: the time. And it's also important to note that the

862
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: hyperthermia is probably going to be a byproduct of environment.

863
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: Are you, Yeah, if you're taking it in a you know,

864
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: in a living room, that's one thing. But are you

865
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: are you in a hot room dancing all night? Well,

866
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: then that's another situation entirely, and that's what leads to

867
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: a lot of feelings of dehydration with it. Some users

868
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: actually drink way too much water to compensate for this,

869
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: and so they developed something called hypone autrema, which is

870
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: where the sodium electrolytes in your blood get diluted, and

871
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: that's not good either. So studies have found actually that

872
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: there's an overrepresentation of women in these cases, and they

873
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: think that it's probably because they have a lower mean

874
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: body weight, but who knows, um and a lot a

875
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: lot of these studies. One of the things that I

876
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: thought was interesting was they sometimes they accounted for this,

877
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: but sometimes they couldn't. They said, well, there's different effects

878
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: on people who are part of the rave culture because well,

879
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: they're staying up late at night, they have different circadian rhythms,

880
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: or maybe they're taking other drugs or who knows, right, Like,

881
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot of variables that are thrown in there,

882
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 1: and alcohol, are they combining it within it with another

883
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: with some sort of illucingen And then ultimately, yeah, are

884
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: you are you jumping around all night in the hot room?

885
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 1: Are you exactly suffering from sleep deprivation as well as

886
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: the come down effects of easy use? So yeah, it's

887
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: a totally different Uh. My understanding from from the research

888
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: is that when it's taken a dance clubs, the stimulatory

889
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: effects were much stronger, especially because of all the environmental

890
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: sites and sounds, but also when you consider the environmental

891
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: effects of it being hot and what we're talking about.

892
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: There was a study that came out in the last

893
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: few years that positive that that loud music actually increases

894
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: the effects. So that makes sense and would make sense

895
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: along these lines to It increases your heart rate, it

896
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: heightens your blood pressure, you have faster breathing. It also

897
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: produces jaw clenching and tooth grinding, which we learned that

898
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: there's terms for these. I didn't know this. Apparently, jaw

899
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: clenching is trismas and tooth grinding is bruxi is um,

900
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 1: which stuff to blow your mind word of the weight.

901
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: It's very very British sounding. Yeah, but but this is

902
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 1: why you you see the whole pacifiers because not you know,

903
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: you're going out to a rape. You don't have time

904
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 1: to get fitted for a mouth guard. What are you

905
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: gonna do? You get a pacifier and then you know

906
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: it has the lights and do dads on it. Then

907
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: you just fit into the scene. Right, So that's the

908
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: sort of you know, physiological after effects are immediate effects

909
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: rather uh. But you know, like we said, it's increasing

910
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: levels of chemicals, so it increases your cortisol levels. In fact,

911
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: eleven of twelve studies have reported a significant increase of

912
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: cortisol and cortisol just to you know, give you a

913
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: quick one on it. It's important for the homeostatic control

914
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: of our bodies for just our feeling of general well being. Right,

915
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 1: so if you have low cortisol levels, you're probably not

916
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: feeling particularly good about yourself or or physically feeling well. Uh.

917
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: It also, as as we mentioned earlier, reduces the serotonin

918
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: transporter levels across the cerebral cortex. Now, what this does

919
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: is it reverses that normal process of serotonin reuptake. So

920
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: an acute dose can release up to eighty percent of

921
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: the available serotonin that's inside your synaptic cleft. So it's

922
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 1: just basically saying like, hey, just dump it all out,

923
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: just robbed the bank, take all the all the money

924
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: and run. Yeah. And it also affects dopamine, uh, nour

925
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: adrenaline and other neurotransmitter systems. So like you know that

926
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: this is where the mood effects come from. That we

927
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: all know about their complex and they're variable though they're

928
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: not always euphoric. In fact, they can also intensify negative

929
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 1: emotional states, and in some instances they increase anxiety, over stimulation, panic,

930
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: or the loss of personal control. Yeah. I mean, we'll

931
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: get into some of its therapeutic uses in the next episode,

932
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: but that's where you certainly see some some negative manifestations occurring. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um.

933
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: And the other thing to pay attention to is that

934
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: both positive and negative moods can appear in the same individual, right,

935
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: so one person can also can be both euphoric and

936
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: depressed at the same time on m d M A uh.

937
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: And some users attribute this to the importance of having

938
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: positive expectancy when you take the drug. So this kind

939
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: of idea, right that like you just got to be

940
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,959
Speaker 1: in the right zone, man, like you gotta you gotta

941
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: go into it expecting happy things. Well, it's the very

942
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 1: statement you see from from from rab culture. You see

943
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: it in shamanistic use of more ancient substances, and you

944
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 1: see it in the medical usage of these these these

945
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: substances because they're powerful, potent uh, drugs that interact with

946
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: your brain, that interact with yourself. Um. Of course you

947
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: want to prime yourself profitly. Yeah, if your brain is

948
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 1: a car engine, like instead of putting oil into it.

949
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: This is like putting I don't know jet fuel into it, right,

950
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: you know, so who knows what these effects are gonna be.

951
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: It's gonna it's gonna be across the board though. Uh.

952
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: It Also, this is really fascinating and we're going to

953
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: talk about this more in depth as well in the

954
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 1: next episode. But it causes apoptosis, which is programmed cell death.

955
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 1: It especially is good at killing cells in our livers

956
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 1: and our retinants, which is fascinating as well. Uh. Basically

957
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: it can lead to fatal acute liver failure in some

958
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 1: limited cases. Yeah. So it's it's easy to imagine like

959
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: a ray melting in a club because it's it's not

960
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 1: quite se renounced and it's not like all your cells

961
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: are going to degrade all at once. Yeah. But but

962
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: the so you know, we'll get into this later. There's

963
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 1: potential medical benefits there. So you could potentially use this

964
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 1: for cancer therapy if you're able to direct it. Uh,

965
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: this program sell death at cancer cells. Okay. Uh. There

966
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 1: are other acute fatalities that are known of with m

967
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: d m A, and they're from all kinds of things.

968
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: Cardiac arrest, brain seizure, destruction of skeletal muscular tissue, and

969
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: even the failure of blood clotting. But my understanding from

970
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: the literature is that these are rare cases that are

971
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: what you have to consider here is you're taking a

972
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: unique chemical and you're and in some cases, like we

973
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: talked about before, you don't know how pure this chemical is,

974
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: and you're inserting it into a unique biological machine that

975
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 1: has all kinds of responses to chemicals. Right, So who knows,

976
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,720
Speaker 1: maybe there's an allergy that that happens that leads to something,

977
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 1: or maybe you have a weak heart right in the

978
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: heart rate response uh that increases for most people ends

979
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: up giving you cardiac arrest. So it's it's depending on

980
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:08,240
Speaker 1: each individual and our sort of fingerprint of biochemistry. Yeah, indeed,

981
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,959
Speaker 1: so one takes this substance and regardless of the circumstance,

982
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: the effects where off. And sometimes it's described as more

983
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: of a just a complete crash right where it's just

984
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 1: well right. Other times it's more gradual. Certainly, the quote

985
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: that we read from Shulgin earlier described in a very

986
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: easy glide back into a normal life. But sometimes it's

987
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 1: just a sharp drop off again that pendulum has to

988
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: swing back. So for up to two weeks after the

989
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 1: use of m d M. A number of side effects

990
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 1: are are often reported. Uh. Physical side effects can include lockjaw,

991
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: loss of appetite, and insomnia, and on the psychological inside,

992
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: effects can include anxiety, paranoia, your ability, restlessness, difficulty focusing,

993
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: a loss of interest in normally fulfilling activities. Uh, you

994
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: might end up having to watch a lot of Miyazaki

995
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: movies on the couch. You know. It's it's the pendulum

996
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: is gonna swing back the other way. The bank has

997
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 1: been robbed. All these levels have to be built back

998
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: up again. Yeah, your brain now only has like the

999
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: serotonin levels it was supposed to have to be able

1000
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: to fulfill your everyday needs. Yeah. So during this time

1001
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: period especially, you're not going to be able to take

1002
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: it again and experience all of its empathic qualities. If

1003
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 1: you were to take it again the next weekend, you're

1004
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: probably just going to benefit from the stimulant properties, right

1005
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 1: And uh so this is where we get into the

1006
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: long term effect type thing. So there's a chronic tolerance

1007
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: that children actually first noticed in Peak Hall in his

1008
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: entry for m d M A uh, and he's very precise. Basically,

1009
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: he gives the exact dosages in the times of day

1010
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 1: of consumption, and how that there's these different effects basically

1011
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: with them, and how the tolerance builds up in the

1012
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 1: human body so that there's fewer gains but more problems

1013
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: over time, And there's several studies that backed this up. Basically,

1014
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: this leads to most users quitting on their own um most,

1015
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: like we've said repeatedly already in this episode, most users

1016
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: report that they've only had a lifetime use of ten

1017
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: occasions and this is probably why, because after a while

1018
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: it just doesn't do for you what it's supposed to do.

1019
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: In fact, I believe was it children or somebody else

1020
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:23,839
Speaker 1: who referred to it as the loss of magic. I'm

1021
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: not sure where the term or originated, but it's used

1022
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,839
Speaker 1: on aerrowood dot org, which is always a great source

1023
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: for information about about believes that has the entire pea

1024
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: call antique. So yeah, so yeah, it's there's a loss

1025
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: of magic. Why are you gonna keep doing it if

1026
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: there's less magic and you still have to deal with

1027
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: the rammifications of the use. So this is your sort

1028
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: of basic long term effect is the chronic tolerance building

1029
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 1: up right, But there's a lot of long term I

1030
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 1: guess what we would call long term harm effects. UH.

1031
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: First of all, you know, we talked about the purity.

1032
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 1: I want to make sure like that we get back

1033
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: to this. The purity level of m d m A

1034
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: is much higher than most street level drugs. Uh. And

1035
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 1: it was only really in the mid nineties that they

1036
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: started to be purity control issues. I guess I don't

1037
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: know that you call im purity control issues when it's

1038
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: street level rather than like in a scientific lab. But

1039
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily as much of an issue in term

1040
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: of the long term harm cases. But the serotonin thing

1041
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: can be a significant issue. Is it leads to something

1042
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: called serotonin or gic neurotoxicity. And they've tested this in animals,

1043
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: and what it sounds like to me is that this

1044
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 1: it depletes your serotonin levels so much that it leads

1045
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: to dysfunction in the serotonin parts of your brain. It

1046
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: leads to a pronounced reduction in markers for serotonin across

1047
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: higher brain regions. And every study of heavy users of

1048
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: m d m A has found that they have a

1049
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 1: significant reduction in their higher brain regions of this stuff,

1050
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, the serotonin making neuroimaging shows us as well too,

1051
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: so when they actually scan these people's brains, they can

1052
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 1: see this, um, there's okay, So that's the serotonin long

1053
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: term problem. There's also deficits in retrospective memory, which is

1054
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: your memory of things that happened in the past, but

1055
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: also of prospective memory, which is your memory for the future,

1056
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: so you remembering to remember something that wrote. Uh. They've

1057
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,760
Speaker 1: also found lots of varied results on this research because,

1058
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, there's all these other factors at work, right, Yeah,

1059
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,919
Speaker 1: I say, basically, you're messing with the cocktail of the brain,

1060
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 1: the cocktail of yourself, and that's going to vary from

1061
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,359
Speaker 1: personal person who's gonna depend on usage history, etcetera. Yeah,

1062
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: Like like we said earlier with with the people who

1063
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 1: are really into the dance scene, they may stay up

1064
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 1: later at night and therefore they have different circadian rhythms.

1065
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 1: So if you're trying to analyze their retrospective memory or

1066
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 1: their sleep deficits or something like that, you're gonna get

1067
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: different results and it might not necessarily be the mp

1068
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: D may And I think this is definitely important to

1069
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: keep in mind for anyone out there who is you know,

1070
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 1: considering trying it is that it's gonna vary. So somebody saying, hey,

1071
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 1: this is the thing to do, they don't have your

1072
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: same body chemistry, so they can't only only you can

1073
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: say for certain yeah, yeah, absolutely. So on top of

1074
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: the memory effects, there's also known to be some cognitive

1075
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: effects as well. It seems to impair even people who

1076
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: are abstinate users, who aren't using it anymore. It can

1077
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: impair your executive processing, your logical reasoning, problem solving, and

1078
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: the emotional intelligence in your brain. However, basic cognitive skills

1079
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: like reaction time, or your attention levels or your vigilance,

1080
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: those are not affected. So this is what they know

1081
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: in terms of that. Sleep has also been slightly studied.

1082
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: As I mentioned earlier, there's some deficits in sleep architecture

1083
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 1: and sleep apnea, but there isn't a ton of research

1084
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: and there needs to be more explored. There can also

1085
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: lead to psycho motor impairments in children of women who

1086
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: take it while they're pregnant, so there are known to

1087
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: be effects on children of of you know, m d

1088
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: M A used RS. And then there's one small thing.

1089
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 1: You know, there's a little bit of research done. But

1090
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: Silgan mentioned this in his journal report about the complex

1091
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: vision has He said his vision got better and there's

1092
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: there's studies about that and that, Uh, there's evidence for

1093
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 1: that as well. But also, you know, like I said earlier,

1094
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: there's also evidence that it attacks the retina cells too,

1095
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: So there needs to be more research done in both

1096
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: those areas. All right, So in terms of overdose and

1097
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: just the key dangers, uh, do you want to drive

1098
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: home again that that environment plays into a lot of it.

1099
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: According to psychiatrist Ingrid Cacy, she's a lead investigator UH

1100
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: in m d M, a assisted therapy for treatment resistant

1101
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: post traumatic stress disorder at the University of British Columbia.

1102
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: She says that the m duma related deaths to hear

1103
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: about are are all about environment. Typical dosage is taken

1104
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: in a normal setting are perfectly safe. It's when you're

1105
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: taken in a hot environment, dance all night, you don't hydrate,

1106
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: you don't sleep. That's when things get potentially dangerous. You

1107
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: don't get into that hyperthermia area um which you know,

1108
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: if which is totally aduct of what you do while

1109
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: you're on the substance substance, But as with anything, of course,

1110
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: even water. As we already mentioned, you can consume a

1111
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 1: dangerous amount of M D M A. Uh specifics are

1112
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: are sketchy based on the material I was looking at,

1113
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 1: because again it's going to vary depending on who you

1114
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: are and which your body is saying. But the average

1115
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 1: ecstasy pill is uh what ten two hundred and fifty milligrams.

1116
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 1: That those are the yeah, the M D M A

1117
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: bombs I think, or maybe like two or three times yeah, yeah.

1118
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: And and just for anyone who's a little shaky on

1119
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 1: their metrics, there's a there are a thousand milligrams in

1120
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: a gram generally speaking, And again this is just a ballpark.

1121
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 1: Don't take this as any kind of a measure that

1122
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: you should apply to any kind of dosages or anything.

1123
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,479
Speaker 1: But if you were to take one or one point

1124
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: five grams, you would definitely be in overdose territory. It's

1125
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 1: like taking ten tablets at once, yeah, or or so

1126
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: or there's a situation where it's a danger consumption. So

1127
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 1: if you're at a place where there's like unlimited ecstasy

1128
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: and you're drinking all this water and then you keep

1129
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: prinking ecstasy trying to keep this feeling going, that's how

1130
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 1: you could creep up on this, uh, this overdose territory

1131
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 1: rather easily. And if you are to overdose, the typical

1132
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: symptoms of m d M A overdose include high bloodplot pressure, faintness,

1133
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 1: panic attacks, loss of consciousness, and seizures. So we talked

1134
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: about Shulgin and him designing this stuff, and then you

1135
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: know it eventually seeping into popular consciousness and being used

1136
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 1: really heavily in the commercial street market, but in the

1137
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: United States, at least where we're based out of it's

1138
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: popularity in the mid eighties led to it being placed

1139
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: on the most restrictive category of the Federally Controlled Substances Act.

1140
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: So it's real illegal here, uh, And this removed it

1141
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: from clinical experimentation as well as human research. Shilgun was

1142
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 1: kind of bummed out about this, as you would imagine.

1143
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: He thought that it's going to make it so that

1144
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 1: studies that like, like what he was doing, would have

1145
01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: to be conducted overseas from now on, and in a

1146
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 1: ways kind of right, a lot of the research we

1147
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: read was remember overseas, I on US. The five key

1148
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: nations involved in maps are are are outside the United States. Yeah,

1149
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 1: so you see this uh, you see this attitude shift

1150
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 1: in the mid eighties. Yeah, it becomes it becomes an

1151
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 1: illegal substance. Um. And there are a number of factors here,

1152
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 1: the political, the cultural, the war on drugs generally just

1153
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: sort of the post the post sixties um almost like

1154
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: cultural revulsion against all things related to psychedelics, and it

1155
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: becomes just a part of the subculture and the counterculture

1156
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 1: movement um. And even today, as we'll discussing in the

1157
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 1: next episode, we've seen a you know, huge uptick recently

1158
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: in the availability of of various substances of particularly psychedelics

1159
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: for study under clinical settings, in clinical settings for a

1160
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 1: host of of possibilities for a host of potential youth.

1161
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: But still the cultural trauma of the nineties sixties still

1162
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: permeates even the even the field, even even though the

1163
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 1: clinical opinion of these substances has shifted again more towards

1164
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: the positive. Yeah, I mean, like, think about the cultural

1165
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 1: effect of that nine O one, nine O two and

1166
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: o episode just sitting in the back of somebody's head.

1167
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 1: It's still back there, and and they go, wait a minute,

1168
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 1: I can experiment with this stuff to maybe solved care cancer.

1169
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, remember what happened to Brendan. Yeah, like

1170
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: there's a there's an excellent ideas CBC Ideas of radio

1171
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: show episode that came out recently. They did a three

1172
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: part series called high Culture. The deals with just overall

1173
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: the the re emergence of psychedelics into clinical trials and

1174
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 1: and and and clinical explorations. And they were talking again

1175
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: to a psychiatrist, Ingrid Pascy, and she was talking about

1176
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 1: all the different security measures they had to legally take

1177
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 1: to keep ecstasy in the lab and involved like bullet

1178
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: proof poof yess and regular investigations. I remember reading about this. Yeah,

1179
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 1: they had to have like special reinforced doors and all

1180
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 1: this stuff and and uh and it's incredibly expensive. We'll

1181
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: talk about that next episode as well. That's the cost

1182
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 1: of medical grade government m D is enormous. Alright, So

1183
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: there you have it again. Pick up with us in

1184
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: the next episode and we will get into these therapeutic

1185
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 1: possibilities for m D. M A, what what is the

1186
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 1: res what did the research say in the past, what's

1187
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:31,440
Speaker 1: the research saying now, and how can this undeniably powerful

1188
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: substance potentially be utilized to HEALSS. So, just to remind you,

1189
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 1: one more time. If you want to get in touch

1190
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: with us and see what we're talking about on stuff

1191
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com, or what video we're

1192
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 1: shooting this week, or what's going on in the podcast

1193
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 1: right now or coming up in the future, don't forget

1194
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: to check us out on social media. We are everywhere.

1195
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 1: We're on Facebook, we're on Twitter, we're on Tumblr, and

1196
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 1: we are on Periscope on Fridays at noon Eastern Standard time,

1197
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: all of those platforms, you can find us at the

1198
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: handle Blow the Mind. And if you want to get

1199
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 1: in touch with us directly, you want to send us

1200
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: some email, you want to talk about your own experiences

1201
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 1: with M D m A, your opinions on M D

1202
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: m A, your thoughts on television shows that had patriot ecstasy.

1203
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. And hey, if it's

1204
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 1: something you don't want us to put back out there

1205
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: into the end of the ether, just uh, yeah, we're fine.

1206
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: You want to always be careful with something that you

1207
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 1: sent us privately, And I know I would also love

1208
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 1: to hear from people just maybe there's something about the

1209
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 1: chemistry here that you know either I'm sure we pronounced

1210
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: something's wrong, but I'm but I'm also sure that there's

1211
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 1: more insights into the chemistry that we maybe didn't glean

1212
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:44,439
Speaker 1: from the research, so let us know. In the place

1213
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 1: to do that is blow the mind at how stuff work.

1214
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: Stuff com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

1215
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 1: Does it how stuff? What's dot com? I think many

1216
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:19,520
Speaker 1: three foot first