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Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcast featuring conversations with

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Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm

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Speaker 1: Cynthia Littleton, business editor for Variety Today. My guest in

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Speaker 1: New York is veteran documentary filmmaker Stanley Nelson. Stanley has

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Speaker 1: a long list of credits that include his latest work

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Speaker 1: for PBS as American Masters series, Miles Davis Birth of

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Speaker 1: the Cool and two thousand fifteens The Black Panthers Vanguard

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Speaker 1: of the Revolution. He's also a two thousand and two

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Speaker 1: recipient of the MacArthur Foundation's Coveted Genius Grant. The motto

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Speaker 1: of Nelson's Firelight Films banner is changing the story. He's

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Speaker 1: putting that into practice with the Documentary Lab program, run

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Speaker 1: by the company's Firelight Media nonprofit arm. That program offers

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Speaker 1: mentorship and support for promising filmmakers over an eighteen month period.

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Speaker 1: This year, he added the William Grieves Fund, named after

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Speaker 1: the pioneering black documentary filmmaker who was his own mentor.

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Speaker 1: This fund is designed to help mid career directors get

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Speaker 1: their second and third projects off the ground. Stanley and

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Speaker 1: I spoke about the business of getting documentary films made

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Speaker 1: and his interest in helping to shephard the next generation

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Speaker 1: of documentarians at Firelight's offices in a four story brownstone

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Speaker 1: in Harlem that is stalked with energetic filmmakers and training.

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Speaker 1: Stanley Nelson, documentary filmmaker, thank you so much for inviting

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Speaker 1: me up to Harlem for this conversation. Thank you, Stanley.

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Speaker 1: You have a long list of fine documentary credits to

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Speaker 1: your name, and you have been a producer and a

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Speaker 1: supporter and an angel for many other projects over the years.

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Speaker 1: Let me just ask you a very simple question. How

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Speaker 1: have you managed to make it and really prosper on

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Speaker 1: the content side as a documentary filmmaker all these years.

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Speaker 1: We know, Oh, it's a difficult business to to to

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Speaker 1: to work it. Yeah. I mean I think one thing

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Speaker 1: that that I promised myself I would do a couple

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Speaker 1: of months ago is whenever I talked about, you know,

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Speaker 1: my career or documentary filmmaking, I would use the word

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Speaker 1: luck because I think a lot of it is luck,

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Speaker 1: you know, and and you can you know, talk about

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Speaker 1: I did this, I did that, But a lot of

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Speaker 1: it is is luck. I think, Um, you know, starting out,

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Speaker 1: I I kind of. I went to film school, and

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Speaker 1: so you know, I had a bunch of different skills.

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Speaker 1: So I could work as an editor, I could work

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Speaker 1: as a sound person, I could work as an assistant

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Speaker 1: camera person, uh, you know, associate producer, producer. But I

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Speaker 1: I promised myself when I got out of film school

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Speaker 1: that I would do whatever it takes anything to kind

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Speaker 1: of stay in in production and in film and just

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Speaker 1: you know, UM, I knew I wanted to do that. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then I think that, you know, when I started

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Speaker 1: actually producing and directing, you know, the way I looked

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Speaker 1: at it is I just wanted you know, each film

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Speaker 1: to lead to the next. That I didn't want, you know,

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Speaker 1: any film to stop my career cold, you know, and

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Speaker 1: so I wanted to, you know, UM, in some ways

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Speaker 1: expand what I did from from film to film and

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Speaker 1: and and put everything that that that I knew about

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Speaker 1: filmmaking up to that point in every film. Do you

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Speaker 1: feel like you you've been able to do that? I

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Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, I really have. I've been able to

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Speaker 1: to do so many different things, you know, using animation,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're using music, um, you know, uh, just

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Speaker 1: different ways of doing interviews. UM. Really just trying to expand,

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Speaker 1: you know, using in the Miles Davis film, the film

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Speaker 1: we we finished recently, you know, we we used uh

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Speaker 1: still pictures in in in different ways and and graphics

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Speaker 1: in in different ways. So you know, I just try

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Speaker 1: to to expand what I do from film to film,

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Speaker 1: just just a little bit. You know, I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to to break the mold. I'm just trying to, you know,

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Speaker 1: make a bet or cupcake. And you've obviously, you know,

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Speaker 1: documentaries and in the last couple of years have really

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Speaker 1: gotten hot. You've been in this space since the since

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and and before, if I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 1: how has the business of putting a documentary together changed

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Speaker 1: in the in the last you know, say the last

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Speaker 1: decade or in the in the time that we've seen

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Speaker 1: this content explosion? Is it an easier process, harder process?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think things have have become

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Speaker 1: easier in terms of the technology, you know, no, no doubt.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, um, we're at the at the

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Speaker 1: stage in an hour, somebody can you know, if you're

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Speaker 1: looking at an archive, they can press a button and

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Speaker 1: send you the archival you know material, you know, right, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, into your computer in a second, where they

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Speaker 1: used to have to you know, dub off a tape

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Speaker 1: and make a tape and send you a tape. You

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Speaker 1: might get it or not, it might get lost in

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Speaker 1: the mail, you know, all those crazy things that would happen.

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Speaker 1: But now you know, everything is is fast or quicker.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not one that that would argue, you know,

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Speaker 1: I started out, you know, using sixteen millimeter film, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not one who would argue, you know, um, oh

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Speaker 1: those were the days when we use sixteen milliaiter know,

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Speaker 1: those to me, those things were really slow and it's

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Speaker 1: very expensive and very very slow. Um and just you know,

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Speaker 1: rewinding a sixteen millionaier film, you know, it could take you,

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Speaker 1: you know, a half hour in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: core falls out in the film spools all over the place.

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Speaker 1: So I think think, I think in that way things

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Speaker 1: have gotten a lot better. I think, you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the huge changes though, though, in the last you know,

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Speaker 1: five ten years, in the financing of films because so

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Speaker 1: many there's so many different funders, there's so many different

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Speaker 1: outlets for for for documentary films, um and so that

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Speaker 1: that especially has made it easier, especially for those you know,

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Speaker 1: like myself and and and others who are established you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know now now we're called content providers,

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Speaker 1: which the term I've never heard before, you know, for

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. But but you know, so

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Speaker 1: that if you're proven, you know, I have a track

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Speaker 1: record of of you know, being able to take an

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Speaker 1: idea to a finished film, then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: you know you are coveted entity. You know where you

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Speaker 1: know ten years ago, you know, people wouldn't even take

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Speaker 1: your calls. That is the demand for for high end

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Speaker 1: and in depth content. And I must say, as a

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Speaker 1: fan of Miles Davis and particularly that those Birth of

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Speaker 1: the Cool sessions trying to understand really what they meant

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Speaker 1: in the history of that music. The documentary that just

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Speaker 1: is just premiering this week on PBS, Miles Davis Birth

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Speaker 1: of the Cool is required viewing for anybody interested in

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Speaker 1: the history of America, anybody interested in jazz, and of

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Speaker 1: course anybody any fans of Miles Davis. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: that project, how in terms of in terms of assembling

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Speaker 1: a film editorially obviously a big mountain with a subject

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Speaker 1: like a Miles Davis. How in terms of But in

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Speaker 1: terms of the money to make the film, how does

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Speaker 1: that start? Does it start at the very kind of

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Speaker 1: idea stage of a film. Do you start to think

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Speaker 1: who might be able to help me, help me put

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Speaker 1: this together, help fund this? Or do you work a

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Speaker 1: little longer on your topic before you start to kind

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Speaker 1: of hit the market. Um? No, I mean I think

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Speaker 1: that that that I really started at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: thinking about, you know, who's gonna fund this and how

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get funding for this film? Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: at the same time we're thinking about, you know, is

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Speaker 1: this a film that we can do? You know, um,

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Speaker 1: is a film that can be done? Um? So you

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Speaker 1: know with Miles Um, we went to American Masters early

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Speaker 1: on and and and it was kind of this thing

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Speaker 1: where they came to us and we went to them

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Speaker 1: at the same time. We argue about who came who

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Speaker 1: went first, But but but somehow, you know, we agreed

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Speaker 1: that that we could we should do Miles Davis. They

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Speaker 1: brought in another company, Eagle Rock Entertainment out of London, UM,

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Speaker 1: and those were basically the main funders for the for

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Speaker 1: the film. Um. It was just one of those things

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Speaker 1: that where everything just kind of came together, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: very quickly. Um, you know, and you know, in some

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Speaker 1: ways it's a no brainer. I mean, you know, Miles Davis,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we we had gone to Miles's family

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Speaker 1: and gotten the permission of Miles's family to go ahead

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Speaker 1: and make the film. They kind of had to approve

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Speaker 1: of me, and and we talked about what we wanted

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Speaker 1: to do. And then we got Sony Music, who owns

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Speaker 1: a lot of Miles catalog, you know, involved, and you know,

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Speaker 1: so we had Miles's family, Miles as a state, we

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Speaker 1: had Sony, you know, and it's like, okay, you know,

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Speaker 1: let's go. And and that happens only because of the

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Speaker 1: track record that you walk in with. I mean yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think, you know, it's it's much harder

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Speaker 1: if you if you come in off the street. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that, you know, when we talk about,

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Speaker 1: you know, things have changed, I think that things have

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Speaker 1: changed a great deal again for for for people who

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Speaker 1: have track records, you know, but but if you don't,

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Speaker 1: and you might have even produced you know, one or

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Speaker 1: two really really great films. Um, you know, it's still

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Speaker 1: hard to get to get your foot in the door.

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Speaker 1: Even with in the case of like a Miles Davis movie,

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Speaker 1: even with the rights and you know, having a good

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Speaker 1: relationship with Sony. I would imagine though, that just even

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Speaker 1: just paying for the music in the film is a

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Speaker 1: pretty significant chunk of the budget. Is that something that

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Speaker 1: you have to consider if you're doing a project on

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Speaker 1: on a person that has a lot of like you know,

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Speaker 1: either visual or music rights that you know you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to get. Yeah, I mean that that that's always

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Speaker 1: a consideration. But but I think that you know, you

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Speaker 1: know that going in, you know, you know that that uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, Sony is not going to just give us

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Speaker 1: the music, you know, even though we had a we

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Speaker 1: kind of had a blanket deal, but you know, we

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Speaker 1: had to pay for that blanket deal. And then then

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Speaker 1: then there are other sources because we didn't want the

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Speaker 1: film to be limited to just you know this music

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Speaker 1: that's Sony owned. So there's a good portion of music

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Speaker 1: that was pre something pretty it's actually Columbia that now

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Speaker 1: Sony owns, when it was a good portion of music

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Speaker 1: that was pre Columbia. And then there's a good portion

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Speaker 1: of music music that's post Columbia. So we we didn't

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Speaker 1: want to say Okay, we're just gonna use was these

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Speaker 1: twenty tracks, you know, out of the Sony catalog, and

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Speaker 1: so we knew that that that there was I've been

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Speaker 1: a negotiation to buy you know, the other tracks that

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Speaker 1: we needed. Was that process of putting together films and

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Speaker 1: getting rights and photo rights and all that that was.

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Speaker 1: That is that part of the sort of the essential

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Speaker 1: education of a documentary producer. You really most people don't

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Speaker 1: have the luxury of of saying telling a business affairs

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Speaker 1: office please handle that, like is that something that you

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Speaker 1: have to juggle when you're when you're starting out. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I did, you know, when when I started out,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean I, you know, from my first

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Speaker 1: you know, a few films. I mean, I did all

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Speaker 1: the footage research, of photo research and music research and

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Speaker 1: all of those things myself because you know, I couldn't

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Speaker 1: pay anybody to do it, and uh, you know, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't even pay myself to do it. But but I

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Speaker 1: but I had to get it done. Um and and

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Speaker 1: it's proved invaluable, you know, because you know I can

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Speaker 1: help direct you know, other people now, you know, so

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Speaker 1: now we have a archival producer, we have a music producer.

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Speaker 1: We have other people who are working on the film

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Speaker 1: who do that. But I can say, well, have you

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Speaker 1: tried this, have you tried that? Um? You know, and

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Speaker 1: so I kind of know that that that that landscape.

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Speaker 1: So you know, an example in Miles, you know, from

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Speaker 1: from the first part of Miles his career probably you know,

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Speaker 1: pre nineteen seventy or so. Um, you know, there there

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Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of footage or or you know, there

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Speaker 1: were a bunch of pictures, but you know, of from

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Speaker 1: nine of them were Miles you know, on stage with

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Speaker 1: a trumpet in his hand. I mean, that's we had

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Speaker 1: a lot of those. You know, we had something like

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Speaker 1: five thousand, ten thousand photos of Miles on stage. Um.

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Speaker 1: But what about the other other photos and and footage?

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Speaker 1: So you know, we spent a lot of time looking

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Speaker 1: in Europe, you know, for stuff, and we found some

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Speaker 1: concerts and that the Miles that Miles played in Europe.

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Speaker 1: We found a great scene of Miles and Frances, his wife,

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Speaker 1: getting off a train and in Europe and it's just

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Speaker 1: you know, really great footage. Um. And we found it

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Speaker 1: for ptographer in Paris who had taken you know, thousands,

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Speaker 1: literally thousands of pictures of Miles and had the most

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Speaker 1: organized archive that I've ever seen in my life. I mean,

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Speaker 1: his archive is just crazy. He has passed away, but

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Speaker 1: his family runs his archives and the stuff that I

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Speaker 1: mean the way it's archives. So it's not only Miles,

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Speaker 1: but it's cross reference with everybody who's who's in the

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Speaker 1: group on the stage, So you know, it's Miles and

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Speaker 1: then it's Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter than if you

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Speaker 1: look up Herbie Hancock, you know he has the same

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Speaker 1: contact sheets and it's just it's just incredible. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And and the only way that we could deal with

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Speaker 1: it was we just you know, because they're literally thousands

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Speaker 1: of pictures, so we we we took pictures of the

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Speaker 1: contact sheets and now those were our references, you know,

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Speaker 1: the contact sheets and some and sometimes we didn't we

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Speaker 1: couldn't even take pictures of the whole all the contact sheets.

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Speaker 1: So we just went like, okay, and there's twenty more

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Speaker 1: of this concert, you know, if we need them. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk about fire Light Media. You are, this is your

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Speaker 1: production company, um, and it is marking its twentieth anniversary.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the kind of ethos behind the company. Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: I should say that that that Firelight has to two divisions,

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Speaker 1: Firelight Films, which is a for profit company which makes

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Speaker 1: the actual pains of the film, and Firelight Media, which

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Speaker 1: is which is a nonprofit. The main thing Firelight Media

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Speaker 1: it does is we run what we call the Documentary

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Speaker 1: Lab and and we work with filmmakers, um, all over

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Speaker 1: the country, filmmakers of color, you know, making their first

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Speaker 1: or second film. Um. We provide mentorship to the filmmakers

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Speaker 1: and really just try to you know, get them to

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Speaker 1: get that first or second film out there and end

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Speaker 1: up there and on the air. And you know what

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Speaker 1: we try to say is, you know what we want

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Speaker 1: to try to do is help you know, start filmmaker's

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Speaker 1: career and help them be able to you know, pay

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Speaker 1: their rent and buy groceries from making films. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: that's a bit, that's a tall order in many cases.

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Speaker 1: How have you how do you do you find um,

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Speaker 1: you know, how do you bring it people into the

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Speaker 1: company for that kind mentorship? So so, um, maybe three

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Speaker 1: years ago, so we started an open call. Before that,

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Speaker 1: we had other ways of finding people and through references,

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Speaker 1: and we had a kind of a you know, what

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Speaker 1: do you call kind of ongoing. You could apply at

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Speaker 1: any time and you know, and you know like that,

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Speaker 1: but but that just got so crazy because we were

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Speaker 1: getting you know, you know, you might get three applications

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Speaker 1: on Monday and four on Tuesday and seven on third,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it was crazy. Um, so we have

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Speaker 1: open call. I think we got two twenty applications for

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Speaker 1: our last open call for like ten slots or eight

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Speaker 1: slots or something like that. So but but you know,

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Speaker 1: we we go. We try to go everywhere and talk

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Speaker 1: to everybody and let everybody know. So you know, we

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Speaker 1: go to Sundance, we go to Trabecca, we go to

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Speaker 1: all the film festivals. We also work with um what's

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Speaker 1: called the Minority Consortium as part of PBS. We work

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Speaker 1: with all of them. Um, you know, the word of mouth.

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Speaker 1: We just try to you know, talk to everybody and

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Speaker 1: try to get as let everybody know and try to

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Speaker 1: get as many people and in their project to apply

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Speaker 1: as we possibly can and how and so if I

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Speaker 1: understand right, the eight the development lab is an eighteen

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Speaker 1: month process. Yeah, the Duck lab runs for for up

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Speaker 1: to eighteen months before it was open ended. And we

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Speaker 1: after three or four years, we're like okay, this is

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Speaker 1: it's not gonna work, you know, because you know you're

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Speaker 1: taking up space and we gotta get you out of

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Speaker 1: here and get somebody else in. I think it's helped

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Speaker 1: the filmmakers to know that, you know, it's a limited time,

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Speaker 1: but you know they can be an up to eighteen months.

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Speaker 1: And we provide mentorship. So you know, if, um, if

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Speaker 1: you come to us and you're accepted in the lab,

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Speaker 1: let's say and and you're you have a trailer and

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Speaker 1: we feel like you know, your trailer is not as

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Speaker 1: good as your proposal. You know, we can give you

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Speaker 1: a producer to help you with your with your trailer.

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Speaker 1: We can assign kind of a consulting editor. We can't

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Speaker 1: afford to pay for an editor, you know, but we

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Speaker 1: can sign you a consulting editor, um to help with

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Speaker 1: with your with your trailer. Um. You know, sometimes people

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Speaker 1: come in they have a great trailer and their proposal

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Speaker 1: is is not very good. You know, we can assign

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Speaker 1: you a writer to help you. We pay for all

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Speaker 1: these things we've gotten, uh, you know, general support from

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Speaker 1: a number of different foundations and organizations. So you know,

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Speaker 1: people come into lab never pay us anything, you know,

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Speaker 1: and we we we don't have to be paid anything.

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Speaker 1: And we've had you know, uh, some films that a

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Speaker 1: lot of films that have been hugely successful. Um, so

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Speaker 1: maybe we should have asked for somebody do you but

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Speaker 1: do you for people that come through, come through the

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Speaker 1: process and have a film that was clearly worked on here,

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Speaker 1: do you have any ongoing association with that with with

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Speaker 1: the film? Yes and no, I mean, you know, they

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Speaker 1: become I mean so so what happens that that we

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Speaker 1: found is is that the members of the lab become

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Speaker 1: a community and and and they you know, really worked

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Speaker 1: work together and really work with us, and they they

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Speaker 1: One of the things that that that we didn't really

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Speaker 1: understand when we started it is how important it was

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Speaker 1: to the filmmakers to be part of a community. And

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Speaker 1: so they are part of this ongoing community. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're like the mafia. You know, we're you know, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna call on you at some point, you know, and

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Speaker 1: so we call the people all the time. Might be

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Speaker 1: a favor in the middle of the night, right wait,

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Speaker 1: you know, ask them to come speak to the other

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Speaker 1: lab members about um, you know, the process, or just

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Speaker 1: talk to this person about you know, navigating you know,

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Speaker 1: that your film's release or or other things. So, um,

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Speaker 1: we you know, yeah, so what we do so we

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Speaker 1: stay in touch with everybody pretty much. Who's who's who's

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Speaker 1: been in the lab. And would you say, do you

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Speaker 1: feel like that there's that there is there's money out there,

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Speaker 1: there is grant money, foundation money out there to support

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Speaker 1: this kind of work. Yeah. I mean one of the

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Speaker 1: things that that that when we started the lab, we

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Speaker 1: went in with with with two kind of leaps of faith.

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Speaker 1: The first one was that there were you know, enough

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Speaker 1: filmmakers out there with great projects, you know, who can

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Speaker 1: who could make these films. I mean these films are

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Speaker 1: for you know, TV. I mean we're not making shorts.

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Speaker 1: We're making you know, feature length films you know, for

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Speaker 1: the movies or or for TV. You know. Um. And

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Speaker 1: we felt that that that there were there were filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: enough filmmakers out there. Um. That's proven to be true.

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Speaker 1: And more so, you know, um, and that we felt

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Speaker 1: that that we could raise the money to do this

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Speaker 1: and keep this going, and that's proven to be true.

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Speaker 1: I think I think part of it was you know,

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Speaker 1: naivete in jumping in because we we didn't really as filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: we you know, you raise money for your film and

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Speaker 1: you get your film and you're done. We didn't realize

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Speaker 1: that that, I that to to have an ongoing lab,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it means that you're constantly fundraising because of

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Speaker 1: this thing you know, has to keep going. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's not like okay, and make a film for a

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Speaker 1: year or two years and I'm done. It's like the

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Speaker 1: lab is in its tenth year. So it's it's tenth

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Speaker 1: year and uh, you know, we're going strong. So so

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Speaker 1: we found that that that there was money to to

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Speaker 1: keep it going and uh, you know, it's it's been

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Speaker 1: very successful and uh you know, and and for me,

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Speaker 1: it's been just you know, incredibly rewarding. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just really great to see you know, filmmaker get

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Speaker 1: their first film and Sundayce or Rebecca wherever. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean how you know, how they change, you know,

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Speaker 1: from from feeling and you know, I don't know, I'm

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Speaker 1: insecure filmmaker, don't like, oh yeah, now I got it.

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Speaker 1: What do you find that people that you come in,

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Speaker 1: people that impressed you when you bring into the lab,

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Speaker 1: other than the resources, the money and resources, what what

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Speaker 1: kind of things do they do. You find that filmmakers

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Speaker 1: these days need need most in terms of guidance from

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Speaker 1: somebody with your experience. Is it that editorial pole they

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Speaker 1: need massaging? You know, pad on the bag, you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the love that it's just love. It's

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Speaker 1: like you can do this. You know you can do this,

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Speaker 1: and you know it's that it's that. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I hope you know, no way from the lab here's this,

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Speaker 1: but it's a lot of a lot of times it's

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Speaker 1: it's just like you're saying to people, you know you

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Speaker 1: can do this. You know, we believe in you. You know,

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Speaker 1: we believe that you. You know, we believe in you.

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Speaker 1: You know, there were two twenty people who apply for this.

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Speaker 1: You're one of the ten that got it because we

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Speaker 1: believe in you and we believe in your film. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and you know that sounds, you know, esoteric, but you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you haven't kind of worked on a

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Speaker 1: film or you know, so maybe written a book or something,

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Speaker 1: you know, you don't realize how you're alone. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're just alone and there's nobody there to tell you

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Speaker 1: it's it's gonna be okay. This is really you know

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Speaker 1: it's okay. Um and and sometimes you know, that's the

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Speaker 1: most and the best of what we provide. Do you

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Speaker 1: see a difference in impact whether something goes as a

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Speaker 1: theatrical release, you know, largely limited for many documentaries, versus

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Speaker 1: being on a television platform like a like a p

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Speaker 1: OV or American Masters. I don't, I don't, I don't really,

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Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I think there's a few films

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Speaker 1: that breakthrough. Um but I think also that that what's

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Speaker 1: happening now is so many films, you know, are just

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Speaker 1: in theater so they can qualify for the Academy Award.

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Speaker 1: You know. American Factory was made for Netflix or bought

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Speaker 1: by Netflix, you know, right out of Sundance, you know,

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Speaker 1: and so give it that one week in New York,

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Speaker 1: Gorilla and and you know it, it's it's doing fine,

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Speaker 1: thank you, you know. Um So, I I don't. I

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Speaker 1: never thought that way. I mean, we made a lot

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Speaker 1: of films, you know, for American experience on on PBS,

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Speaker 1: and the vast majority of them, you know, went straight

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Speaker 1: you know, to TV, you know. Um I I so,

428
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,719
Speaker 1: you know, I think as long as you can get

429
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 1: people's eyes on them, you know, and that that's what

430
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 1: you gotta try to figure out how to do. I mean,

431
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,439
Speaker 1: that's something that we talked about in the lab. You know,

432
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 1: we had a whole um Impact division that dealt with

433
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 1: you know, impact and train people for impact and also

434
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,199
Speaker 1: you know, worked with our filmmakers on impact because you know,

435
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 1: it's it's a lot of time people don't don't understand

436
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 1: that if you make a film, you know, you get

437
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 1: on you know somewhere that's prime you know, uh, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, Eric,

438
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,199
Speaker 1: you know anywhere, um and it can just go up

439
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 1: and come down. You know, how do you how do

440
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 1: you make sure that people see it? That's can you

441
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: think of a good example of of a film, whether

442
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: you were involved with or another film that had a

443
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,439
Speaker 1: really strong impact campaign that that you know, post release

444
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: that magnified the magnified the kind of radius of whatever

445
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 1: the film was trying to shine a light on. Yeah,

446
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: i mean, I'm not sure this this what what what

447
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 1: you're what you're looking for? But you know, when we

448
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 1: we've we premiered Miles at Sundans and then um so

449
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 1: that was in January and we started we didn't start

450
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: our theatrical and then we played some festivals and then

451
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 1: we started our theatrical release, uh in September, And what

452
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,360
Speaker 1: we did was every every weekend, you know, for eight

453
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 1: weeks or more, we would open in a different city,

454
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 1: and every weekend when we would open, I would go

455
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 1: to that city. So we opened in Detroit. I'm there

456
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday afternoon. Miles nephew or or

457
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,239
Speaker 1: his son are also there. People who were in the

458
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 1: film are also there. And what we found was that,

459
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 1: you know, when you open, it becomes an event. So like, okay,

460
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: the in Detroit, we open and and the filmmaker is there,

461
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 1: and Miles his sun is there. And so that first night,

462
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: you know, you sell out, and then all those people

463
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: tell all their friends. And then the next day and

464
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 1: next night you do the same kind of thing, and

465
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: it starts the ball rolling, and so it really like

466
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: pushes the film forward. Um. You know, that was something

467
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 1: that that that I did. I think for like eight

468
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: to ten straight weeks. That was in a different city

469
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: every weekend. Um. A true a true road show. It

470
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 1: was a real road show. But you know what I mean,

471
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: for for me, look, I that's something I really love

472
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: and really enjoy doing. You know, I mean you know,

473
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: that's the easy part of filmmaking. It's kind of like

474
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: the gravy. You know, the film is made, it's done,

475
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: you know, like it's up there, you know, you know,

476
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: And and I think one thing that I've learned is

477
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: that you know, the first reaction that you get to

478
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 1: the film from the first time, first showing, that's the

479
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: reaction you're gonna always get. You know. It's that's always

480
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: pretty It's pretty consistent. You know, it can just vary

481
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: a little bit. You know. We we premiered Miles at

482
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: Sundance and the and um, you know, to a largely

483
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 1: white audience. And I remember the first time we screened

484
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: the film for a black audience. We were like, holy

485
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,479
Speaker 1: crap because people were going wild, you know, like our

486
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: our premier screening at Sundance and we got a standing ovation.

487
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: It was great. But when we screened the film for

488
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: a black audience, it was just different. People are yelling

489
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: at the screen, and you know, like when Herbie Hancock

490
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: came on and start clapping, it was just it was

491
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: just a whole different scene. And does that kind of reaction,

492
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 1: does that kind of as a filmmaker, does that make

493
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: you think I did good. I hit I hit the right,

494
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, I touched the nerve for these folks telling

495
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: this great story about this amazing, complicated personality. Yeah. Yeah,

496
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: I mean I think that I'll tell you the story.

497
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: For me, the greatest story with Miles was, you know,

498
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: I worked with my wife, Marcia Smith, and she's probably

499
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: you know, the person whose opinion I value the most

500
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: and trust the most, you know, um. And she hadn't

501
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: seen like the really the whole Miles film. And we

502
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: sat down in front of the computer when we were

503
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: like just done, and I showed her the film and uh,

504
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: you know, I turned her tour when the film ended,

505
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: and she was crying and she said, oh my god,

506
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: you did it. You did it. And that's just like

507
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: one of the greatest moments in my life because it

508
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: meant so much to me, um that we were able

509
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: to tell Miles this story, you know, um in a

510
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: way that that that made sense and that people would like.

511
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: And so you know, that was the moment where I felt, Okay,

512
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: we're okay, we're okay, your toughest critic, you brought the

513
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: tears right, Yeah, And that was you know, and you know,

514
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: she'll tell me, you know, make that shot longer, make

515
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: that shot short. But that was her only Her only

516
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: comment was you did it? Have you um, have you

517
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: experimented at all with docuseries, multipart multipart series for for

518
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: any number of you know, Netflix is and Amazons. Yeah.

519
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: We we just did a four hour two parter for

520
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 1: ESPN on Michael Vick, which UM aired three weeks ago.

521
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: It just happens and we have all this stuff going

522
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: on at the same time. But we just aired aired

523
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: that and we're working on a four part series for

524
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: PBS on the Atlantic slave trade, where you know, we

525
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: haven't said we start shooting like next month, so we're

526
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: we're probably a year and a half out, but we're

527
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: just starting that. I mean, I think that that one

528
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: of the things that that happens, you know, for the

529
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: good and bad, you know, is for documentary filmmakers. You know,

530
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: that's where the money is. I mean, you know, if

531
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: you can if you can do a four part or

532
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: six part, you know, there's four times or six times

533
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: the money and the time, but but you have to

534
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: deliver the material. Yeah, and the time. But but but

535
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: what it but the money is that significant, you know,

536
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: But what it does is it makes you able to hire,

537
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: um support, a support team. You know, so if you're

538
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: doing like an hour and a half or a two

539
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: hour film, you know, you might not be able to

540
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: hire a production manager, right, you might not be able

541
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: to hire you know, that kind of support that a

542
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: longer film allows you, a seer reason allows you to handle.

543
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: So it takes some of the weight off you, um,

544
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: when you can do a series. And and it also

545
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: you know, like part of our lives are like gypsies,

546
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: you know, it's documentary filmmakers. So it means that like, Okay,

547
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 1: I've got a home, you know, I've got a home

548
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: for the next two years or three years or whatever

549
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: it is. You know, I've got a home, rather than oh,

550
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: i've got home for a year, I gotta move. Yeah, No,

551
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: that's it. It's itinerant. Let's talk about the William Greeves Fund,

552
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: which is something that was just unveiled this year at

553
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 1: Sundance and it's basically a program to provide dollar like

554
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 1: seed money for mid career filmmakers. If I'm explaining that right,

555
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: why why why did you feel the need for that

556
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: this program at this time? Well, first I should say

557
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: that you know, Williams William Greeves. It was um uh

558
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: the so William Greenves was the first real documentary African

559
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: American filmmaker. Um and he was in some ways my

560
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: mentor my first job was with Bill Grieves, and um,

561
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: you know so many other people, you know, if my

562
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: generation started out with Bill because he was the only

563
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: black guy out there making docks you know. Um and

564
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: and so you know, we wanted to honor his name

565
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: he passed away a few years ago. Who wanted to

566
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: honor his name? Um. You know. Part of our thinking

567
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: was that that we we've had filmmakers who've come through

568
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: um the doc lab, you know, with their first film,

569
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: and they've you know, won awards, I mean, you know

570
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: Peabodies and Emmy's, and you know, they still had a

571
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: problem getting that second third film off the ground, getting

572
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: their foot in the door, you know, coming to us

573
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: and saying, you know, look, I might have to take

574
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: a teaching job or something, you know. Um and I'm

575
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: not talking about a film teaching child. I'm talking about

576
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: you know, in a high school or It's very real.

577
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: If you talk to documentary producers, it's a very real

578
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: you know, that whole making a living part which is,

579
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: which is again your success and the ability to expand

580
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: as you have is really impressive, right and and so

581
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: you know, we we felt that that you know, if

582
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: you've made a one great film, I mean, you know

583
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: somehow you know that you should have the the you know,

584
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: somehow you should be able to at least start another one.

585
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: You know, somehow the world should be there for you. UM.

586
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: So we wanted to start a fund for um, you know,

587
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: second time filmmakers, you know, to help them get that

588
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: that film off the ground. And and so many times

589
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, now it's it's it's having that that that

590
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: sizzle reel, that that sample, real, that teaser that that

591
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: says to people, you know, this is what I'm trying

592
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: to do. Um And and you know that that can

593
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: then uh you know sway people took to come in

594
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: with with with full funded m um and it was

595
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: just announced. Have you had much you must have had

596
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: a lot of response to it so far. Yeah, I'm

597
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: not the one to talk to about that. Responses responds

598
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: are going to me. But but yeah, I mean we

599
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: haven't even we announced it at Sundance and we're gonna

600
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: have another you know, huge announcement here in New York

601
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: with Bill Greeve's widow and things and things like that.

602
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: So I think we just just announced it. I'm not

603
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: the one who kind of manages it, So I don't know.

604
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: Is that a separate sort strain of funding to come

605
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: into grants? Yeah, we actually got got some money for

606
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: for that, um, you know, to do that because you know,

607
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: we went and pitched the funders. You know, you know,

608
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: what do we do for for for these filmmakers who

609
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: are coming through the labor or through other places that

610
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: are making one great film? Um, you know, and it's

611
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: still hard to get in the door of you know,

612
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: um you know, Netflix, who, HBO, pb A, anybody you know, Um,

613
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, especially if if if you're making you know,

614
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: a film that's that's a little different. You know, it

615
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't sound sexy, you know. But but these

616
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: are people who have taken something for their first film

617
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: and made something that doesn't sound sexy and made it,

618
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: you know, made a great film. So what we wanted

619
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: to do was just if we could give a few people,

620
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: you know, helping hand to make that second film. Is

621
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: it hard? I would imagine that in the in the

622
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: documentary field, it would be some stories, you know, some

623
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: stories announced themselves that Michael Vick, It sounds like a

624
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: really interesting to get into that, Miles Davis. But if

625
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: you're you know, if if you're doing an environmental story

626
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: or a social justice story, and that I imagine that

627
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: some of it takes time. You kind of have to

628
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: take that time to follow it to see where the

629
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: story is going, if it's even going to materialize into

630
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: a great story. That process must be hard to do

631
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: if you don't have an independent source of wealth. If

632
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: you're a documentary filmmaker. We've heard the stories of the

633
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: movies that took ten years to make. That's a that's

634
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: a long time to not have to not have a paycheck. Yeah,

635
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I think part of a part of our

636
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: thinking is is that you know, um, you know, you

637
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: can't take ten years to make every film. You know,

638
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: you can do it once, you know. But but if

639
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: you if you if you've taken you know a fair

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00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: amount of time and you've made a great film, then

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00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: you know, somehow you should be able to get some

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00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: seed money to make that second you know. And and

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00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: so that's what we think is is really important. One

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00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: of the things that that that happened with with with

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00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: Bill Greeves. The first film I made was Two Dollars

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00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: in a Dream, the story of Madam See day Walker

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00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: and um. The second film I made, it was The

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00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: Black Press Soldiers Without Swords. And when I made that film,

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00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: I remember, you know, Bill Greeves came up to me

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00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: and he said, well, you know, now, Stanley, you're you're

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00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: you're in a in a different realm because you've done

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00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: it twice. Nobody can say that it was luck. You've

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00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: done it twice, things are going to change for you now.

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00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: He was kind of right. He changed slowly, but I

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00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: mean it's really it's really important to get that second

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00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: one under your bill. Thanks for listening. Be sure to

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00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business