1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's me Katie Couric. I'm back, but just 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: for this bonus episode. The third season of Next Question 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: will actually be launching on February and we've got some 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: really exciting people lined up for you. But in the meantime, 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: I wanted to share a very important and fascinating conversation 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: I had this week. Great to see you all. I'm 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: so happy to be here with my friends from the 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: Street Why. I'm coming to you tonight from Los Angeles. 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: The Street Why invited me to moderate a talk with 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: the founding members of the Lincoln Project. You might have 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: heard of them this election season. They're a super pac 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: started by former Republicans who wanted to defeat Donald Trump 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: and in fact hold accountable all those who violate their 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: oath to the Constitution, regardless of party. I was joined remotely, 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: of course, by a pool plitical powerhouse trio Jennifer Horne, 16 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: Reed Gallen and Steve Schmidt. Our conversation was recorded on Tuesday, January. 17 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: We're sharing it with you here with just some light editing, 18 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: so enjoy. Given what has happened in recent weeks and months, 19 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: do you all feel that our democracy is in fact 20 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: in jeopardy. Um, Steve, since you're the least opinionated, I'll 21 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: start with you. What happened on January six was was 22 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: the following incited to violence, ay election of white supremacist, 23 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: white nationalists, conspiracy theory theorist Baptist, Proud Boys, extremist militias 24 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: attact the United States capital um and the capital fell 25 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,639 Speaker 1: to them. The American flag was ripped down, Maga flag 26 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: was was raised in its place, American flag was used 27 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: to bludge in a Capitol police officer. Why were they there? 28 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: Why were they there on January six? Well, they were 29 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: there because there was a constitutionally mandated process. That's a 30 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: moment of majesty, right, that involves the peaceful transition of power. 31 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: It's been uninterrupted in this country since. So when you 32 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: think about all of the great things that have been 33 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: invented in America, airplanes, television, spaceships that could land and 34 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: return from the moon, the Internet, right, the list goes on, 35 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: the greatest invention in all the history of the country 36 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: is the peaceful transition of power. George the third asked 37 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: what would Washington do? And he was told that Washington 38 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: would go home. And he said, if he does that 39 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: will be the greatest man of this or any age. 40 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: Literally the first human being in two thousand years who 41 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: could have been an emperor to walk away from the power. 42 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: John Adams, the first president, defeated, as Reid points out, 43 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: an election decided in the House of Representatives. He leaves 44 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: the process of the transfer of power was not stopped, 45 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: but it wasn't peaceful, with blood soaked and with blood sooked, 46 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: because that mob was incited by the president to desertify 47 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: certified state elections and to different franchise millions of black votes. 48 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: We'll talk more about that in a in a second. 49 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: But why were they there. They were there because they 50 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:52,279 Speaker 1: were incited by lying. We should understand something about national socialism, Nazism, 51 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: and the fascist movement. Anti Semitism was a feature, not 52 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: the foundation. Foundation of it was the lie, so alies 53 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: they were incited, and the why they were excited about 54 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: was that the freest a fair selection in American history 55 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,559 Speaker 1: was in fact stolen, stolen by who, by those people, 56 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: those people in the inner cities, Black Americans. So they 57 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: were incited. Democracy is fueled sustained by faith and belief 58 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: in the legitimacy of the system. It's of all the 59 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: terrible things that Trump did over his four catastrophic years, 60 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: including his simplicity through his lying in incompetence and malfeasance, 61 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: the depths of hundreds of thousands of people that didn't 62 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: have to die because of COVID, including that, including the 63 00:04:54,960 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: cajun An orphaning of children, including that. The worst thing 64 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: he did was what he did at the end, when 65 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: he poisoned faith and belief in American democracy. Incited by 66 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: a president, the capital falls, and then one forty seven 67 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: members of Congress rise for the purpose of busin enfranchising 68 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: millions of black Americans with the vote, for the purpose 69 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: of installing into the presidency for a second term the 70 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: person who lost as opposed to a person who won, 71 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: which would have led to the fall of the American 72 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: Republicans two forty fourth year if that action would have 73 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: been successful. So we have the propagandists, we have the financers, 74 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: we have the cynical elites like Josh Hally, We have 75 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: all of the ecosystem around the charismatic cult of personality. 76 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: This is an autocratic movement at of the country we 77 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: would vote for if the election were tomorrow as a floor. 78 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: This is this is a serious threat to American democracy 79 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: for certain. In fact, read you know, I was shocked 80 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: when I read these statistics last night of Americans still 81 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: insist that Joe Biden was not the legitimate winner of 82 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: the election, and one of Americans say they either strongly 83 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: support or somewhat somewhat support the stormy of the capital 84 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: Read I mean this is still today, and Jennifer, I 85 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: want you to weigh on this, to weigh in on 86 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: this as well. But how could that be? How could 87 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: you know? How did we get here? And how could 88 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: those those people still respond that way? Well, how we 89 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: got here, I think is a longer story that needs 90 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: to be told in its own right. Um. But I 91 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: think that if you look at this, you know, through 92 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: even going back to the fall, Uh, when candidate Trump 93 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: was running, remember that he started to delegitimize the the outcome. 94 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: Then when he thought he was going to lose to 95 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton. Um, he always made himself, you know, a 96 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: victim of the press, a victim of his opponents. Uh. 97 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: And then as we saw last last year, he started 98 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: the same thing to delegitimize the process again, whether or 99 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: not that was absentee balloting, mail in balloting, early voting, um, 100 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, whatever it was, because again, in case he 101 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: could lose or would lose, uh, he needed to have 102 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: an excuse. In fact, Mary Trump, the President's niece, who 103 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: we spoke with many times throughout the course of this campaign, 104 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: said this is what was going to happen. She said 105 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: that something like this was going to happen. And we 106 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: talked to her, I think in mayor June of last year, 107 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: and we started saying we had we had been saying 108 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: to folks, supporters and others, you know, the campaign's over 109 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: when we defeat Donald Trump. We changed that. We said 110 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: this campaign isn't over until Joe Biden takes the oath 111 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: of office on January. Because we understood, and I think 112 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: Mary was hugely helpful to our understanding of this, is 113 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: that so long as Donald Trump feels personally literally physically 114 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: safe in whatever it is he does, he does not 115 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: care about the outside world. And so he gives that speech. 116 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: He watches these people marching, He's sitting in the residents 117 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: of White House, He's in a fortress, surrounded by men 118 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: and women who are dedicated and you know, promised to 119 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: give their lives on his behalf if necessary. He feels 120 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: no compunction, no compunction whatsoever about what he's seeing. What 121 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: is he most upset about that they're not as well 122 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: dressed as he'd like them to be. So where do 123 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: we get to this place? Um, first and foremost, it 124 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: starts with the leader. As you know, Steve has a 125 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: lineup of seven pieces of Trump is M that will 126 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: be making more public here as we go forward. But 127 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: the point is is that he systematically convinced somewhere between 128 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: a quarter and a third of the country that everything 129 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: he said was correct. You had a bunch of otherwise 130 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: probably normal Republicans, as Jennifer can attest to, who just 131 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: decided this the way it was going to go. And 132 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: then I think lastly, Um, you know we something we 133 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: were talking about right before we joined the crowd, which 134 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: you know you cannot underestimate the effect that Fox oh 135 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: in in uh News, Max, Twitter, Facebook especially, I think 136 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: Facebook is a is an open sewer pipe into American society. 137 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 1: All of these places where these folks gathered, where they 138 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: got themselves spun up, where this information, whether or not 139 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: was Q and on or whatever it was, went back 140 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: and forth, and ultimately what you saw was a bunch 141 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: of people frankly, and you know, in sort of tech parlance, 142 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: jumped the air gap. They went from social media to 143 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: the real world. And what we saw was January six, 144 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: Will you, Jennifer speak on behalf of the normal Republicans 145 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: that read referred to people who might have supported President 146 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: Trump because of policy reasons, who weren't necessarily buying into 147 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: every aspect of the cult of personality. But we're on 148 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: the same page in terms of tax cuts and deregulation 149 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: and stimulating the economy and some of the other positions 150 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: he held. I mean, what percentage of those seventy a 151 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: million people constitute people who who felt more aligned policy 152 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: wise with this with this former president. Um, I would 153 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: like to believe it was the majority of them, that 154 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: it was a large number of them. Um. I think 155 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: when you know, first of all, I'm no longer a Republican. 156 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: You know, a couple of weeks ago, I left the 157 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: party and registered as an independent. And the reason was 158 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: it was before January six, But it was what was 159 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: leading up to it that pushed me to make that move. Finally, 160 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: I believe that the majority of the Republicans who voted 161 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: for Donald Trump fully reject what happened on January six 162 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: that that is not their headspace, that is not what 163 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: they were looking for. But I think it's really important 164 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: as we, you know, to Read's point, the story of 165 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: how we got here is a long story, and that 166 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: could be a conversation all by itself. But how did 167 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: we get to you know, how did we get to 168 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: this moment? How did we have such a rapid deterioration 169 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: over the last four years. It wasn't because of Donald Trump. 170 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: It was because of the Republican Party, the Republican Party 171 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: and the activists and the leaders and the you know, 172 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: the Rona Romney McDaniels of the world, and the state 173 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: party chairs and the state party committees. They gave Donald 174 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: Trump a home. They created an arena, a playing field 175 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: for Donald Trump. And they were all in. At any 176 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: time at the beginning of Trump's presidency, Mitch McConnell or 177 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy, you know, any group of actual Republican leaders 178 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 1: could have come together with a show of force, a 179 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: show of political force, and reigned this president in. It's 180 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: the Republican Party that empowered him and that welcomed that 181 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: that you were just talking about. They gave a home 182 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: to those people who you know, tore down the American flag, 183 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: who threw um a a a fire extinguisher at a 184 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: Capitol police officer, ultimately killing him, who you know went 185 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: in there with the intention. We have to be really 186 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: clear about what happened on the sixth. Their intention, their 187 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: vocalized intention, was to will overturn a free, fair, legitimate 188 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: American election and kill some of people in the process. 189 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: They hung a noose and went looking for Mike Pence. 190 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: The Republican Party gave those people a home. And what 191 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: we see happening at this moment going forward, even though 192 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: Trump has lost that, you know, that was the party's 193 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: moment to say, Okay, we're going to reset. Instead, they 194 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: are fully embracing everything that Trump stood for, and instead 195 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: of trying to put it behind them, they are building 196 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: the future of the party on those people who stormed 197 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: the Capitol on January six It seems to me, Steve, 198 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: there was a critical moment that would have allowed more 199 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: moderate Republicans to recapture the Republican Party, and that was 200 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 1: the impeachment vote in the House of Representatives. Now it 201 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: was the largest, the most bipartisan impeachment in history, yet 202 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: only ten Republicans supported impeachment. M can you help us 203 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: understand and all three of you please weigh in on this. 204 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: Some of our elected officials, Republicans who seem so terrified 205 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: about speaking out still against Donald Trump. Is it because 206 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: they do not want to alienate his base, They do 207 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: not want to be primaried, They want to hold onto power. 208 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: But you know, it's it's it's still shocking to a 209 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: lot of people that morality has not um eclipsed political ambition. Well, 210 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: we live in an age of cowardice. Political cowardice in 211 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: the extreme, the likes of which, despite politics always being 212 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: a business that the American people held in somewhat low 213 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: with scheme right, I mean, character of politicians in a 214 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: free republic has always been fair game. And American people 215 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: have always been hard on on their politicians, and that 216 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: in that regard, what we what we have now are 217 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: people that are faithless to the idea and ideals of 218 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: the country and and to their oaths. They live in 219 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: terror of being tweeted at by Donald Trump, and so 220 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: they sacrifice over the last four years every principle that 221 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: they help. I just want to say something. You just 222 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: go around very quickly the flywheeling. The elements that are 223 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: necessary for an autocratic movement to take root. The first 224 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: is the leader, right, Donald Trump is clearly the leader. 225 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: Second of the propagandist, the people that rely right and 226 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: sustained the leaders lies and turn those lies into lies 227 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: of authority, where what's true is what the leader says, 228 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: despite what evidence reputes it, whether that's evidence before your 229 00:14:55,640 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: eyes or intellectual evidence about the elections, straight lie from 230 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: trun Spicer's first lie, inaugural lie to the stolen election line. 231 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: Lies of authority that require the suspension of disbelief. Right. 232 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: But that's not enough. It's not enough to have the propagandists. 233 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: Not enough to have the followers. You need the cynicism 234 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: of the elite. You need the Josh Holly's, you need 235 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: the Kevin McCarthy's. You need the Ted Cruz, the people 236 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: who are arrogant enough to believe that they can ride 237 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: the tiger. Josh Barley has contempted like I can't describe. 238 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: For those people that sit outside rest in Viking horns invests, 239 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: it's contempt for them. There an ends to a means right. 240 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: But that's not enough. You need to shoot. I have 241 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: to go along get along people who accommodate this because 242 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: it's easier. I don't want the Trump people calling me 243 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: right if you can, as Republican members said, well, I'm 244 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: getting death threats, then if you can't districtorge your duties, 245 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: resigned from your job because you took an oath to 246 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: the Constitution of the United States. But when you when 247 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: you look at that fly week, right, the cynicism of 248 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: the elites like Holly combined with the sheep gets you 249 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: to where we are. And so when you look at 250 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,359 Speaker 1: the House now, right, the determinative vote is the January 251 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: sixth vote. We're a hundred forty House members voted to 252 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: throw out the election. There are reasons that I profoundly 253 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: disagree with them, where people of good faith could differ 254 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: about the question of impeachment in the final weeks of 255 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: a president's term, not on the vote on the January sets. 256 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: And so what you have in the House is Liz 257 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: Cheney is the leader of the House Conservatives, Kevin McCarthy 258 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: as the leader of the House Autocrats. Liz Cheney is 259 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: the leader of the Republican Democracy Caucus, which is smaller 260 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: than the House Autocracy Caucus. And so this conflict that 261 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy seems to be brewing because he's weak in corners, 262 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: because Corporate America is walking away from financing any of 263 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: these people involved. On that January six vote, right, the 264 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: party will get more extreme right in twenty two right, 265 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: the Q and On wing of the Republican Party is 266 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: going to roll over the establishment wing like the RMACH 267 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: did the Belgian Army in n There are fourth day 268 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: parties right growing not shrinking, that are held and controlled 269 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: by Q and On people. The Oregon Party, the California Party, 270 00:17:54,119 --> 00:18:00,239 Speaker 1: the Texas Party, the Arizona Party. Like these of the 271 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: Texas Party has Q and On mottos as its motors. 272 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: So so so Trump holds the party build the levers 273 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: of power in the party. The state parties are increasingly 274 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: controlled by the conspiracy theorists and the grand roots energy 275 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: of the party. And the people who tend to vote 276 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: in the primaries are the people who believe the election 277 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: was stolen. As the next presidential campaign begins, the first 278 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: article of faith used to be you had to go 279 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: to Iowa or New Hampshire and establish your conservative bona fighters. 280 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: Now the third requirement of being a serious candidate will 281 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: be to embrace the big line that the election was stolen, 282 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: that Trump was betrayed, He was betrayed by these apostate 283 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: Republicans like the Secretary of State and Georgia, the governor 284 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: of Georgia, or the list of their villains betrayed. The 285 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: stab in the back theory is always part of this, 286 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: and that's where all of this is going. Buck. Here's 287 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: the good news. It please. There is the good news, 288 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: though that is terrible for the Republican Party. As that 289 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: fire consumes the Republican Party. We want it to burn. 290 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: Let it burn hot, because the hotter it burns, the 291 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: smaller the chances of these people winning a national election 292 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: because they will shrink as part of a national footprint. 293 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: And hopefully over the next six to eight years, this 294 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: movement will disappear or be put back underground because it 295 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: is brought to electoral submission. We can never lose a 296 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: national election to this coalition of people ever again, because 297 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: if we do, it may be the last election we have. 298 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: They don't like them, Okay, Steve hold On free So 299 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: Steve is saying it's going to take six to eight 300 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: years for this whole movement to burn out, so that means, 301 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: I mean, what is going to happen. A lot of 302 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: people are commenting, Okay, we get it, but what can 303 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: be done about this? If anything, Steve, you made it 304 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: sound like a fat to complete that this this you know, 305 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: part of the party is going to continue to rise 306 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: and continue to have more power. Read do you agree? 307 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: And what about the prospect of Donald Trump starting his 308 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: own party, the Patriot Party? What impact will that have 309 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: on the cohesion within the Republican Party? Could have burned 310 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: out faster and could moderates kind of rise up in 311 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: in opposition? Well, I mean, I think I do agree, 312 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: you know, with with what Steve has said. I think look, um, 313 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: Rob Portman, senator from Ohio, long long considered a moderate Republican, 314 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: announced that he's not running for reelection. Um. He's not 315 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: running for re election for a couple of reasons. Probably 316 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: one is because he just doesn't want to hang out 317 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: with these people anymore, and who could blame him, And too, 318 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: because he probably saw what I think we had seen 319 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: for a while, which is he wasn't to win a 320 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: primary in Ohio next year. Whoever Trump's chosen candidate was 321 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: was going to get all of Trump's support. They would 322 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: they would roll over Portman, who is not equipped to 323 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: handle a fight like that. And and they're saying Jim Jordan, right, 324 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: Jim Jordan's might might he might? But I mean, so 325 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: here's some Here's a little bit of good news. Is 326 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: that if if we get truly like q and on 327 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: Maga people running for the U. S. Senate next year 328 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: in primaries, and they win, you could have another two 329 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: thousand and ten like we saw with the with the 330 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: Tea Party, in which these Republicans are so far outside 331 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: the mainstream that even regular human beings such as that 332 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: we have left won't have anything to do with them. 333 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: So I think that that goes to Steve's point about 334 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: them burning out. Look, I think the good news here 335 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: is I think we should look back to this past election, UM, 336 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 1: at least on Joe Biden's election, which was you know, 337 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: eighty million, one million Americans chose Joe Biden. Now there's 338 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of discussion about why these other seventy 339 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: four million made the choice they did. But let's stick 340 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: with this. Biden built, you know, one of the largest 341 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: broadest and deepest coalitions in American presidential history. UM. I 342 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: think what you're seeing is an awakening by many many 343 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: Americans who may not be Republicans or Democrats, are partisans 344 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: of any kind, even if they're registered, that we have 345 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: taken this for granted for too long. Um that we 346 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: sat back on our heels, We didn't care. We don't 347 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: like our politicians, we don't think it matters anyway, my 348 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: vote doesn't matter. Well, it does matter, and I think 349 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: you're starting to see that. I think you're starting to 350 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 1: see people of all stripes again, from states and cities 351 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: across the country who are now waking up and understanding 352 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: that we must take control. I thought it was fascinating 353 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: that Josh Holly, who might be the whiniest want to 354 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: be dictator that ever lived, second only to Donald Trump, 355 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: said that he did not believe that it was American 356 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 1: citizens rights to criticize him as an elected official for 357 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: his actions. I mean, if I mean, this guy's a 358 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: constitutional attorney. He he clerked for John Roberts at the 359 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,719 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. He is not a stupid guy. He just 360 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: as a sensitive guy, and he understood that people started 361 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,719 Speaker 1: standing up against him. I think what you've seen with 362 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: corporate America running for the hills from these people is 363 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: a sign that when Americans can individually and then collectively 364 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: stand up. But they can and will take the people 365 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: to account that need it. But again, the thing is 366 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: we cannot allow is we cannot allow a that these 367 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: people to go uh you know, um, they must be 368 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: held accountable, uh and be We must keep folks focused 369 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: on what it is we're doing, which is we must 370 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: must must win in two and we must win in 371 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: twenty four, Steve said. He noted Ronald Reagan once said 372 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: we're only one generation or generation away from losing democracy. 373 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: Were now one election of it. And so is it possible? 374 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: It is? Is the fight going to be easy? It's not, 375 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: and it's not going to be sure. Six to eight 376 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: years is the short run. Twenty years is the long run. 377 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,479 Speaker 1: I mean what we saw here is, um, you know, 378 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: Trump let we invited Trump the vampire into the house, 379 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: and he let all the other vampires into the house too. Alright, 380 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to put him all back out again. 381 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: And it's going to be race by race, state by state, 382 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: legislature by legislature, and it's going to take all of 383 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: us who really believe that none of the rest of 384 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: this is possible um, you know when when I mean 385 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: America and bending the arc of justice, the ark of 386 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 1: history towards justice and a freer and fairer and more 387 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: equitable America or more prosperous America. If you want those things, 388 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: that democracy is the only way, because, as we know, 389 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: authoritarianism never leads to that. More with the founders of 390 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: the Lincoln Project. Right after this, let's return to my 391 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: conversation with the founders of the Lincoln Project. Jennifer, do 392 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: you think I want to ask you about the prospect 393 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: of of Donald Trump forming his own party and how 394 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: that changes the equation at all? And secondarily, demographics are 395 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: changing significantly in this country. By there's going to be 396 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: a majority minority population. Many of these Trump supporters, uh, 397 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, are older, mostly white. Can you address both 398 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: those things, Jennifer. When I was chairman in New Hampshire, 399 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: I used to One of the things I used to 400 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: say to, you know, county committees when I was driving 401 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: around the state is that the party is not going 402 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: to die if we lose. With all due respect, the 403 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: party is not going to die if we lose a 404 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 1: bunch of over sixty five angry white people. The party 405 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: dies when you lose young people, when you lose um, 406 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: you know, first generation voters, when you lose minority voters, 407 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 1: when African American voters are Latino voters, and you know, 408 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: that's that's when the party dies. And we've lost those people. 409 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 1: We have lost those voters. Although sorry to interrupt, Jennifer, 410 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I think Donald Trump did surprisingly well with 411 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: I mean with Latinos and even some black Yeah. Democrats 412 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: need to pay attention to that, do they not? Absolutely? 413 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: And you're right, especially about Latino voters. Absolutely, um, but 414 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: our party is not speaking to the and and here's 415 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: a small piece of it that that I you know, 416 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: you know, we should highlight two because one of the 417 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: things that the Republican Party will tell you is that 418 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: Donald Trump turned out more voters than any other you know, 419 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: candidate and within these parameters. Ever before seventy four million, 420 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: seventy four point two million voters, uh, Joe Biden turned 421 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: out over eighty million voters like we have this. We 422 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: had this tremendous surge of um of interests, of engagement, 423 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: of you know, electoral engagement in this um, in this campaign. 424 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: And I think that that really is a reflection more 425 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: a reflection of where we are as a country. UM, 426 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: that a lot of other things. The division is clear, 427 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: the division is obvious, but I think those people are 428 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: coming forward and engaging. But kind of back to the 429 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: original point that the Republican Party is not speaking to 430 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: those voters who are who are rising up, and if 431 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 1: they can't, if they continue to not be able to 432 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: do that, they're going to continue to lose elections. UM. 433 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: As far as the idea of a new party, I 434 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 1: strategically I don't really get it, frankly, from Donald Trump's 435 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: point of view, because if he starts a Patriot Party, 436 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: he doesn't get to put candidates in Republican primaries. Does 437 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: he like It's I'm not sure that it advances his 438 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: influence and his power to the maximum degree possible. But 439 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: there's no question that whether he decides to try to 440 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: poison Republican primaries or you know, roll out some kind 441 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: of new party, there's no question that Donald Trump's influence 442 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: is going to be to weekend, the Republican Party to 443 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: divide Republican voters is Republican candidates who will lose elections 444 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: as a result of what he's doing. What he's trying 445 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: to do, and you know the idea of this Patriot party. Um. 446 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: The problem in bigger and that, however, is not that 447 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is in this moment able to have that influence. 448 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: I'll go back to what I said at the beginning. 449 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: The problem is that the entire the Republican Party leadership 450 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: continues to embrace him. They want to give him that 451 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: party they are they're embracing the idea of Donald Trump 452 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: having that kind of influence. They are taking Trump is 453 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: m forward and making this conscious choice not to leave 454 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: it behind even though he has lost the election. It's 455 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: I guess my point is always I put the responsibility 456 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: on party leaders. It's not Donald Trump. They gave Donald 457 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: Trump the influence that he has. It's the party leaders 458 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: that I hold accountable. Can I just say one thing 459 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: about that, because you brought this up, I mean, the 460 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: one thing you noted, and you're absolutely right, was that 461 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: that Trump gained with with non college educated Latinos and 462 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: African American men. And and I think what we see 463 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: there as a couple of things. One is that I 464 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: think that among Latinos, right, I mean, look, one of 465 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: my best friends, my best man, his parents are from Mexico, 466 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: and he always says, the problem with you white people 467 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: is that you think we're all the same, when, of 468 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: course there's you know, Puerto Ricans, there's Cubans, there's Mexicans, 469 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: there's Hondurans, there's you know what you name it. They 470 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: all have their own cultures, they all have their own 471 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: view of the world that you know, we sort of say, okay, well, 472 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: they're Latinos in Texas, therefore we're just going to talk 473 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: to them like this. Um, we should also understand that, 474 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of Latinos are doing what the 475 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 1: country has long asked of our immigrants to do. They 476 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: are assimilating. So they may be of Latino descent as 477 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: I am of Irish descent, right, but that may or 478 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: may not any longer sort of you know, indicate how 479 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to vote for something. And then I think 480 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: also there's the piece of you know, if they're you know, 481 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: I always use this idea of there's there's a six 482 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: man crew on the I four corridor in Orlando, Florida 483 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: in August. Right, it's nine degrees, Right, there's three white 484 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: guys too. Latinos in an African American they may not 485 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: go to the same place when they go home at night. 486 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: Their kids might not go to the same schools, but 487 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: when they're standing out there and they watched the rich 488 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: lady in the range Rover drive by, they probably feel 489 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: pretty similar about the world. Now, that's not an excuse 490 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: to storm the Capitol, right, but it should indicate to 491 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: us that there are a whole heck of a lot 492 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: of voters in this country who Democrats used to own, 493 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: lock stock and barrel that now feel like they have 494 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: no place to go, and with with left nowhere to go, 495 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: they're making a bad choice. Not all the time, remember, 496 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: I mean, Trump is still losing African Americans two to 497 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: eighteen or whatever it is. It's an but, but it 498 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: could be a trend that that Democrats should pay attention to, because, again, 499 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: as they said, none of this occurs in a vacuum. 500 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. 501 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: Let's jump back into my conversation with the founder of 502 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: the Lincoln Project. I asked Steve Schmidt what he thinks 503 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: Donald Trump will do now. Well, I think he's the 504 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: leader of America's autocratic political movement. I think he controls 505 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: the Republican Party. I think he is praying I think 506 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: he's going to be hunted, um, hunted by jurisdictions in 507 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: the States, um by his preditors. I think it's gonna 508 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: be tremendous reluctance to do deal flow with Donald Trump. 509 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: But I think Donald Trump, um, you know, from the 510 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: incitement issues, legal jeopardy there, legal jeopardy. I think the 511 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: tax issues in the state of New York, UM, he 512 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: has three hundred million dollars with creditors coming to I 513 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: think it's gonna be very hard for Trump to get 514 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: the money he needs. And I think he's pursued for 515 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: the balance of his of his life. But he will 516 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: yield considerable political power inside the Republican Party, maybe maintaining 517 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: his complete hold on it. But that movement should be 518 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: train game as he does that in the short in 519 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: the short to medium firm hopefully. Well. I was going 520 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: to say, you know, he's the one that famously said 521 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and not lose 522 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: any supporters. Jennifer, do you think all these the legal 523 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: repercussions of some of his activities, some all these different 524 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: lawsuits in different jurisdictions, whether we're talking about Georgia or 525 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: New York wherever. Do you think it will actually have 526 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: an impact on Trump is um per se um. I 527 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: think that he's likely to lose some percentage of support. 528 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: If you're talking about like polling, do you or don't 529 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: you support Donald Trump. I think they're gonna be more 530 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: Republicans in particular who are willing to say, um, you know, 531 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: he shouldn't run again, things like that. I don't think 532 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: it's going to have a significant um impact on his 533 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: real the real influence that he has over the party, 534 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: you know, in the in the in the immediate future, 535 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, the next s four to eight years. Um. 536 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: I think that that group of Republicans who are with 537 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: Donald Trump are to your point, with him no matter 538 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: what he does, standing out in the middle of Fifth Avenue, um. 539 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: So I and I think that what we're going to see, 540 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: um is an expansion of an increase of this conspiracy mentality, 541 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: this big line mentality kind of growing, kind of making 542 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: its way through the Republican Party. Everything is going to 543 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: have to be a big line now. It's it's it's 544 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: going to be that the courts and you know, the 545 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: second District of New York are all conspiring against Donald Trump. 546 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: That Deutsche Bank is lying to take down don Donald Trump. 547 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: You know what, it's all going to become part for 548 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: the for his base. This is all just going to 549 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: continue to feed that idea that the entire world is 550 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: somehow lying about and conspiring to take down Trump. I 551 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: think that's going to continue to fuel the Republican Party 552 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: and a great to a great degree. Well read. You know, obviously, 553 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: the Information super Highway, as we once called the Internet, 554 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: is the road where the big lie is perpetuated and 555 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: delivered to people's homes and reinforced. Um, will any kind 556 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: of tech regulation uh put you know, damp in this 557 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: kind of messaging and this kind of orthodoxy or is 558 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: the genie simply out of the bottle? Read? You know? 559 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: I well, you know it's uh what does it say? 560 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: You can't you can't yell fire in a crowded theater 561 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: like Facebook is like you know, is like yelling fire 562 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: in a crowded theater the size of the United States. 563 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: You know, it's it doesn't get to claim I'm just 564 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: a platform and therefore I can do anything I want 565 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: and the people on it can do anything they want. 566 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: And I single out Facebook just because they're the biggest 567 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: and the baddest. I mean, you have Steve, you have 568 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: gal like Steve Bannon who says I want to be 569 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: head the FBI director and Dr Facci, I want to 570 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: stick their heads on pikes. And Zuckerberg goes into an 571 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: employee meeting and says, well, that's not really a violation 572 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: of our term of service. It's not How is that 573 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: possible If I said that? Right? If I said it 574 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,800 Speaker 1: on my Facebook page, which I don't have, my guess 575 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: is the FBI would be knocking on my door. But 576 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: because it's Steve Bannon, it's okay, um, And so I 577 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: think they do have responsibilit I mean, I like to 578 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: say this, like Facebook, all of this technology that we're 579 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: on right now, none of this would exist but for 580 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of nerds in the Pentagon basement forty years ago. Right, 581 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: So once in a while, I'd like Mr Zuckerberg to 582 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: remember like that without all of this, he wouldn't be 583 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: where he sits now. If he doesn't want to be 584 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: an American company, he can move to Singapore wherever it's 585 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 1: going to be. But I would venture to say that 586 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: the reason why he was so in on Trump's victory 587 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,240 Speaker 1: was because he knows it so long as a Trump 588 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: isn't in power, there's no any trust coming for him 589 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: under Biden administration. Much harder to say um, and so 590 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: is it is the genie out of the bottle? It's 591 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: it is um. But I would say this is that 592 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: when you see even Facebook, uh, YouTube and Twitter pushing 593 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: Trump off of those platforms, uh, it pushes you know, 594 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: the supporters further and fur and further into the fringes. 595 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: And here's what I would say is that the amount 596 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: of friction that is that hap happens when that happened 597 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: when he's on gab and parlor instead of Twitter and Facebook, 598 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: I think does dramatically increase the amount of work it 599 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: takes for somebody to find what he's saying. And I 600 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: think those are a lot of places where otherwise sort 601 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: of what I would call casual Trump supporters and I 602 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: don't even know what that means, really aren't going to 603 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: go to those places. Right if you didn't just pick 604 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: up your phone and see what he's saying, but you've 605 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: got to go to someplace you wouldn't otherwise go. I 606 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 1: think that that could be very harmful to him. And 607 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: I think Jennifer was right. I think there were a 608 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: lot of Americans and Republicans, even Trump supporters who saw 609 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: what they saw at the Capital on the sixth then 610 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: were beside themselves. It didn't want anything to do with it. 611 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: It was It was amazing to meet Jennifer. How quickly 612 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: conservative media was able to pivot from the insurrection on 613 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: January six and what happened there to cries of censorship 614 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: once Donald Trump was taken off Twitter. And I'm curious 615 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: if you all think at uh that he should be 616 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: taken off permanently off social media or is that going 617 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: to create even more problems and a bigger rallying cry 618 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 1: for his supporters. Steve wanted, well, either one of you, 619 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: Steve or Jennifer, you want to take that. I'll just 620 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: say that grievance is the high octane fuel of Trump. 621 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: Is um, always has um. But look, Twitter has terms 622 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: of service, right, they have policies. He violates the policies. 623 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: He's incited violence and insurrection, and they have said, they 624 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,359 Speaker 1: have said Steve that they're taking him off permanently off 625 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: to now UM, I do think right, it raises a 626 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: larger question. Let's say this as a First Amendment absolutist 627 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: um the concentration of power in the hands of the 628 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: tech over lords is too much. And so here we 629 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: are in the third decade of the twenty century. Right, 630 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: If you just back up a couple of years, right, 631 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: and you look at Mark zuckerbrouman tour around America that 632 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: had the trappings of a presidential campaign, where you look 633 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: at the speculation around Cheryl Sandberg, where you look even 634 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: that the society but bestow some type of credibility, some 635 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: type of wisdom on Mark Zuckerberg, right, because he built Facebook, Right, 636 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: and so because Mark Zuckerberg is worth thirty five billion 637 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: dollars and he's twenty seven, right, Mark Zuckerberg might have 638 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 1: relevant opinions on all these other subjects. Um. I think 639 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: that what we've discovered is he's a pretty shallow thinker 640 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: about most subjects other than Facebook. And so when we 641 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: look at the totality of the power of the tech 642 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,800 Speaker 1: industry at time, as a society, through our political processes, 643 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: who evaluate that much in the same way slightly over 644 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,319 Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, Teddy Roosevelt looked at giving the 645 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: American people a square deal. When you look at the 646 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: concentration of power and wealth into a few YouTube, too 647 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: few hands, and so I just want to say something 648 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: real quick. I mean, we're talking about how did seventy 649 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: four million people vote for Trumped? His country doesn't have 650 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,399 Speaker 1: four dollars cash available for an emergency. Their dignity has 651 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: been stripped away, and so they hear the sirens song 652 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: of the demi gods who wants to smash everything because 653 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: the system they were taught to believe in hasn't delivered 654 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 1: for I mean, we we need to have the humility 655 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: great to understand that. And I think we need to 656 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 1: look at all of these companies and understand right that 657 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: we have a problem with big in this country, right, 658 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: whether it's big business, big media, big tex big finance, 659 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: big politics. Everywhere you see big, you see the little 660 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: guy getting it. And I think the at in this 661 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: era when we look at these tech companies and everything else, 662 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: proper scrutiny of big right at the expense of a 663 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: concept of the public good is an area of politics 664 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: that's a really fruitful one that we ought to be 665 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: talking about, because too much of this debate is the 666 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: same stuff we've been talking about with increasingly little relevance 667 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: for the last forty years. So so is it worth. 668 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 1: I mean, how do you make some of the disenfranchised 669 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: voters in this country we feel more included in the process. 670 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,760 Speaker 1: Somebody is asking, is there really any point in trying 671 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: to convert any of the seventy four million who voted 672 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,320 Speaker 1: to re elect the former president. It seems the strategy 673 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: needs to be outnumbered them at the polls versus trying 674 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: to convince these people the earth is round when they 675 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: believe it is flat. Um, so, you know, I guess 676 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: they're there are two approaches, right, can you is it 677 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: is it too late to make many of these people 678 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: who did support Donald Trump who are angry? You know, 679 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: I watched this movie nomad Land last night with Francis McDorman, 680 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: and it's about people who live in vans and my 681 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,319 Speaker 1: husband and I said, you can understand why people are 682 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: just so frustrated. They're you know, they're going from place 683 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: to place, job to job loading boxes for Amazon. But 684 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: is there a way to reach out or you know, 685 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: is that is that futile? Well? Look, I mean I 686 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: think there are some who are never going to be converted. Um, 687 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: you know, if it's of the country, whatever they're going 688 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 1: to be, they're going to be with Trump or with 689 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: with the grievance or whatever. Let me just say one 690 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: thing about the movie you watch. I haven't seen it, 691 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: but the idea of the folks moving job to job 692 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: and these things. If you look at the people who 693 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: stormed the Capitol on January six, these were did not 694 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: appear to be people who were suffering from economic anxiety. 695 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: These are people who who had the money and the 696 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: wherewithal to get to Washington, d C. Find themselves a 697 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: place to live, feed themselves, and you know, in some 698 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: cases where somewhere between five and twenty tho dollars worth 699 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: of gear to storm the capital. I mean, these were 700 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: not These were not folks who you know, you know, 701 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: you know, left the hollow of eastern Kentucky and and 702 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: thumb their way east. That's kind of that's kind of 703 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: a massive generalization, don't you think read well? I mean 704 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: my point is this is that is that if there 705 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: were that many angry people, then millions of people would 706 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: have marched on Washington. The people who chose to march 707 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 1: on Washington, who chose to incite violence. Again, maybe you're right, 708 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: I probably am over generalizing. My point is is that 709 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: when Mr Buffalo heads main story out of jail is 710 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: that they wouldn't feed him organic food and he was 711 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 1: upset about it. It appears to me that we maybe 712 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: are over generalizing in the other direction, which is not 713 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: everybody who voted for Trump lives in a hill build 714 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,439 Speaker 1: elogy book, but in fact were people who maybe had 715 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 1: these longstanding beliefs and Trump opened the door to let 716 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: them into society. You know, let me. I just want 717 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: to I just want to say something. But first off, 718 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,280 Speaker 1: it's not the case, right that all seventy four million 719 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: of them would fall into the q and on camp, 720 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: right to the anti mask camp, right into the craziest 721 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: stereotypes of it. So let's say the number is what 722 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: the number is on the basis of the polls, you know, 723 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 1: support the storming of the capital or understand it or 724 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: whatever the number? Right that you know that the dead enders, right, 725 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm not particularly interested in understanding. Um. What I'm interested 726 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: in and is making sure that they don't attain political power. Right. 727 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: I want them to understand the majority of us in 728 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 1: this country, right, we are the majority. Right, Like, and 729 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: I'll say that again, we are the majority. Right. The 730 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: president called for unity. Unity does not mean submitting to 731 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: the delusions of the losers of the election about what 732 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: unity is unity. Right, he called for around national purpose 733 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: the crushiest disease, and to defend democracy, right to grow 734 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: the economy, to do the things that are necessary to 735 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: prepare people as best we can for the world that 736 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: we live in and give them an equal shot at success. Right, 737 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 1: That's what our politics is. But I want them to 738 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: understand something on behalf of us, the majority. We live 739 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: in a two hundred and forty four year old constitutional 740 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 1: republic that was handed to us through blood sacrifice of 741 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: thirteen generations of Americans who come to us from every 742 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: nation in the world, and who built a great country. 743 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: We're exceptional, not because our people can shout USA the loudest, 744 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: because this nation, of all of the people of all 745 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: of the nations of the world, that come from a 746 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:20,760 Speaker 1: people where every language was spoken amongst us founded an idea, 747 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,920 Speaker 1: has done more good in the world than all of 748 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: the other countries of the world put together. From the 749 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: beginning of time. We have fed more people, we have 750 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 1: freed more people, we have cured more people. We're the 751 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: United States of America. Our gift to the world is 752 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: the idea that a free people can work together and 753 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 1: be sovereign and govern themselves. We are trustees of the 754 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 1: greatest inheritance that anybody could receive American citizenship through birth. 755 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: And those Americans that weren't born here but are here 756 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: as Americans today that took that out understand this more 757 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,800 Speaker 1: acutely than most of us who were born here. But 758 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: my message to those people is this, we have no 759 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 1: compromise to offer you at all. Our goal is to 760 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: put you into submission, to defeat you, to purge you 761 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,720 Speaker 1: from our national life. The que and non conspiracy garis 762 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 1: the white supremacists, the white nationalists, the racist the violent maligions. 763 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,760 Speaker 1: Let's stop pretending that they get a seat at the table. 764 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: Let's stop pretending that they aren't the threat that they are, 765 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 1: because they've done exactly what they told us they were 766 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 1: going to do over and over and over again. In 767 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,840 Speaker 1: the majority of this country have to understand that what 768 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,799 Speaker 1: unites us more than what ever divides us on an 769 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:07,319 Speaker 1: issue difference is this fundamental belief in the continuation of 770 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: the American Republic, where we decide who to give political 771 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: power to on a temporary basis, and we evaluated every 772 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,440 Speaker 1: two years, every four years and decide what direction we 773 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: want to go in. We are in charge, not the 774 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,880 Speaker 1: Trump family. When Matt Gates went out there and he 775 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 1: said that Donald Trump is the forever leader of the 776 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,480 Speaker 1: Republican Party, the leader of the America First movement. Right, 777 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,240 Speaker 1: I hope he forms a Patriot Party and he splits 778 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: the Republican Party's power and have it makes it more 779 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 1: difficult for them to win. But understand this his Patriot Party, 780 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: whether he files paperwork or not, it exists. It's a fascistic, 781 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,400 Speaker 1: autocratic movement within the Republican Party. It's the majority within 782 00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: the Republican Party. And that fight, right, it's going to 783 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: be a fight that we are all stakeholders in and 784 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:10,359 Speaker 1: we and we need to understand that because if we don't, right, 785 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 1: we riffed losing an election to people who may not 786 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: ever give up that power. Again, I'm gonna let you 787 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,440 Speaker 1: have the last word read. So. One of my one 788 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,720 Speaker 1: of my favorite musicians is a guy named Jason Isabel 789 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,839 Speaker 1: from from Alabama, and he has a great song called 790 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,120 Speaker 1: Hope the High Road, and one of the lines in 791 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,799 Speaker 1: that song is there can't be more of them than us. 792 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:37,719 Speaker 1: There can't be and there aren't Well I think that's 793 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: a good way to end this conversation. Jennifer Reid and Steve, 794 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,759 Speaker 1: It's great to talk to you all. I could I 795 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 1: could have this conversation for another hour, but maybe we 796 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 1: can do it again sometime and kind of take the 797 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,560 Speaker 1: temperature of the country because things seem to be moving 798 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,400 Speaker 1: so quickly and changing almost by the hour. But it 799 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,919 Speaker 1: would be to catch up with you. So I'll talk 800 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: to my friends Sue Solomon and maybe when we can 801 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:12,919 Speaker 1: do this again. Thank you for having us, Katie. Next 802 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,319 Speaker 1: Question with Katie Couric is a production of I Heart 803 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 1: Radio and Katie Curreic Media. The executive producers are Katie Kurik, 804 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,320 Speaker 1: Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. 805 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:28,120 Speaker 1: Our show producer is Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are 806 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:32,480 Speaker 1: Emily Pinto and Derek Clements. Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan 807 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:37,640 Speaker 1: Fagan and Lowell Berlante, Mixing by Dylan Fagan. Our researcher 808 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,680 Speaker 1: is Gabriel Loser. For more information on today's episode, go 809 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,480 Speaker 1: to Katie Currek dot com and follow us on Twitter 810 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:51,120 Speaker 1: and Instagram at Katie Curik. For more podcasts. For my 811 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,160 Speaker 1: heart radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 812 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.