1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Alright, Question number one, how do you handle family responsibilities 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: during work? Come here? What would I do if you 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: poop your pants at school? Well, first of all, I 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: don't move my pants because I'm a second career. But 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: if I did, you would probably till a long and 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: have her come to take me up. That's right. I 7 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: would probably tell my wife to go pick him up. 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: How involved are you as a father? I try to 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: be as involved as I can. Candidly, I am as 10 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: involved as work allows me to be. Well, the truth 11 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: of the matter is, during the week, not a whole 12 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: hell of a lot, and it's not fair to anyone. Really. 13 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: What is frustrating about being a working dad pretty much everything. 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: When we talk about the pay gap, we're talking about 15 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: a ratio how much women make compared to men. We 16 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time talking about one side of 17 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: that equation, women, But to understand why women take a 18 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: pay cut when they have kids, we have to look 19 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: at what happens to men when they become Dad's what's 20 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: frustrating about being a working dad. It's really about, you know, 21 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: the things in the middle of the day, things at school, 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:15,199 Speaker 1: volunteering at school that other parents are able to do 23 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: that usually, I am not able to do it when 24 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: you work. Yeah, I guess that's frustrating about being a 25 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: working dad. He's just not seeing them as much, you know, 26 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: only seeing them for maybe an hour in the morning, 27 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: an hour at night, a couple of hours a day. Really, 28 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: it's not much. Rebecca Glaubert is a sociologist at the 29 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: University of New Hampshire who studies a phenomenon known as 30 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: the fatherhood bonus. Having kids, she says, is good for 31 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: men's careers. I'm not saying that suddenly with the birth 32 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: of a child, you know, a man is called into 33 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: a supervisor's office and immediately given a raise. It has 34 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: more to do with over the course of that year 35 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: and the following year's fathers tend to see their wages 36 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: rise a bit more quickly relative to childless men. Men's 37 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: earnings increase more than six percent when they have children, 38 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: even controlling for factors like experience, education, hours worked, and 39 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: spousal incomes. While employers see motherhood as something distracting, they 40 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: see fatherhood as something that makes men better at their jobs. 41 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: The assumption is that those men will work hard to 42 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: support their families. They're more stable, more committed. But where 43 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: does that leave women? Their incomes decrease four percent for 44 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: each child that they have. Yes, even controlling for all 45 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: of those same factors, these stats are related. Men's careers 46 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: can take off because women are taking the pay hit. 47 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: We've spent the first half of the season talking about women, 48 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: but we can't end the motherhood penalty or close the 49 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: gender pay gap without debts of men have no access 50 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: to leave of any kind for the birth of a child. 51 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: The gender lie helps to keep women not on a pedestal, 52 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: but in a case you should never say I'm ready 53 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: to have a baby. Am I ready to lose my job? 54 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: There's no single industry where women aren't punished or appropriated. 55 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: When men have children, they experience a pay bump. When 56 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: women have children, the opposite happens. Fathers with partners who 57 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: also work say they find it difficult to find a 58 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: balance between home and work. Gender is no longer the 59 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: factor creating the greatest way to discrepancy in this country. 60 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: Motherhood is welcome to the paycheck. I'm Rebecca Greenfield. In 61 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: a two parent household, it makes sense in theory that 62 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: both parents would share the burdens of childcare equally. And 63 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: split the professional consequences us. But it doesn't work that way. 64 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: The same structures that discourage moms from working also discourage 65 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: men from spending more time with their kids. Historically, it's 66 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: been hard to get men in positions of power to 67 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: see how these gender roles have hurt women. What's been 68 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: a lot more convincing is showing how these gender roles 69 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: hurt men too. One of the first people to show 70 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: how effective this argument is was Ruth Bader Ginsburg. In 71 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two, she took up her very first gender 72 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: discrimination case. Charles Morritts was a single man who took 73 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: care of his elderly mother, so when he filed his taxes, 74 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: he took a deduction for money he spent on her caretakers. 75 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: But the RS rejected his claim and they said, well, 76 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: if we're talking about caregivers, then this must be women. 77 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: That's Daniel Steepleman, who wrote the Ruth Bader Ginsberg biopic 78 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: on the Basis of Sex. He also happens to be 79 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: Ruth bader Ginsberg's nephew. Daniel says that the caretaker benefit 80 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: was really written with women in mind. The great irony 81 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: of so many of these laws. Is that it came 82 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: from a place of men thinking they were being helpful, 83 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: and in their mind, if you were a woman, you 84 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: were the caregiver to your family. Ruth Bader Ginsburg argued 85 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: the case under the Civil Rights Act, which says you 86 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: can't discriminate on the basis of sex. She wasn't the 87 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: first person to point out that gender discrimination is unfair 88 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: and holds people back and hurts people financially, but she 89 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: was the first person to do it in a way 90 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: to convince a panel of men. One was that it 91 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: was the first time that this argument was made on 92 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 1: behalf of a man um This argument had been made 93 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: before over the course of a hundred years arguing against 94 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,559 Speaker 1: gender discrimination, but always from the perspective of a woman 95 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: who had been treated unfairly, and male judges just couldn't 96 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: see it. They couldn't understand what the big deal was. 97 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: She won the case. It was a big deal not 98 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: just because men could claim in new tax deduction, but 99 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 1: because this little provision in the tax code no longer 100 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: assumed that women were the only caretakers, an assumption that 101 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: hurts both men and women by keeping men out of 102 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: the home and women out of the workplace. It was 103 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: an even bigger deal because it opened up the door 104 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: for Ruth Bader Ginsburg and others to challenge any law 105 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: that viewed men and women differently, and there were a 106 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 1: lot of them. The Charles Mart's case became Ruth Bader 107 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: Ginsberg's playbook for the next decade. She argued and won 108 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: dozens of cases that struck down gendered laws by showing 109 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: how they hurt men, which was a shortcut to equality 110 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: for women. There was a series of landmark decisions in 111 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: which they basically made it harder and harder for a 112 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: law that discriminates on the basis of sex to be 113 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: deemed constitutional. So fast forward to the nineties, legislators were 114 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: drafting the Family Medical Leave Act, and because of Ruth 115 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: Bader Ginsburg's fight, they purposefully used gender neutral language. The 116 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: law allows primary caregivers that can be a man, a woman, 117 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: or anyone to take off twelve weeks of unpaid leave 118 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: to care for a newborn or a sick family member. 119 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: The idea was if men take time off, women might 120 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: not take as much of a career hit when they do. 121 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: They won't face the same penalties and pay our opportunities, 122 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: but changing the laws is just the beginning. Kevin Knusman 123 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: was one of the first men to try and take 124 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: advantage of fm l A, and it didn't go well. 125 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: Susan Burfield is a reporter at Bloomberg. She spoke to 126 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: Kevin about what happened when he wanted to stay home 127 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: to take care of his daughter. Kevin Knusman grew up 128 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: with an involved dad, off work at four home by 129 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: four ten. Kevin wanted to be the same kind of father. 130 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: We've been married, I guess about nine or ten years, 131 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: and so we were very happy to be expecting our daughter. 132 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: I intended to take an extended leave following her birth. 133 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: That's Kevin. He was working as a police officer in 134 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: flight paramedic in Maryland and expected to be able to 135 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: take time off to help his wife, Kim, care for 136 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: their newborn. But near the end of her pregnancy, Kim 137 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: got sick and her doctor said she would need extra 138 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: rest after the birth, Kevin would have to do even 139 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: more for their daughter. This was a year earlier, President 140 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton had signed the Family Medical Leave Act into law, 141 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: the first and only federal leave law the US has 142 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: entitled parents to take up to twelve weeks of unpaid 143 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: time off to care for a newborn or an ill 144 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: family member. This bill will strengthen our families, and I 145 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: believe it will strengthen our businesses and our economy as well. 146 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: When Kevin's wife got pregnant, he asked the state police 147 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: for at least four weeks of f m l A 148 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: leave under the new law. A supervisor denied his request, 149 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,119 Speaker 1: so then he asked for time off using Maryland state benefits. 150 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: He said that he, not his wife, would be his 151 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: daughter's main caregiver, and he asked for thirty days leave 152 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: the amount of mother would be granted, but that request 153 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: was denied too. He was told you're not entitled to 154 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: be a primary care provider because you're a man, and 155 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: unless your wife is dead or in a comb, or 156 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: you can breastfeed, you're not and will not ever be 157 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: qualified for a primary care provider. After ten days, HR 158 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: ordered Kevin back to work. Well, I was dumbfounded. I 159 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: was a long time state trooper, I had lots of leave, 160 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 1: and my way of thinking I was I was entitled 161 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: to use that leave. My wife needed help. It made 162 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: me basically choose between my family or feeding my family 163 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: with my job. Kevin was up against centuries of social norms. 164 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: Mother Is are automatically assumed to be the main caregivers 165 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: in the months after the birth, and all the years 166 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: after that, fathers are assumed to be the providers. F 167 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: m l A was supposed to be a new labor 168 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: standard that applied equally to women and men, exactly what 169 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: Ruth bader Ginsburg wanted. If it just applied to women, 170 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: employers would have incentive not to hire them, or promote them, 171 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: or pay them fairly. I immediately recognized this as a 172 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: case that was firmly within the tradition of the a 173 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: c l U as Ruth bader Ginsburg first envisioned it, 174 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: and the fm l A had just recently passed, So, uh, 175 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: this was very exciting to me. That's Sarah Mandelbaum, one 176 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: of the lawyers from the American Civil Liberties Union who 177 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: worked on Kevin's case. After the Charles Mooretts case, Ruth 178 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: bader Ginsburg co founded the Women's Rights Project at the 179 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: a c l U, which is where she worked to 180 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: keep striking down laws that treated men and women differently. 181 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: The f m l A should have been the perfect 182 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: example of the law that met Ginsburg's standard. According to 183 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: fm l A, Kevin should have been entitled to the 184 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: time off. He'd been on the police force for eighteen years. 185 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: F m l A kicks in after one year. So 186 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: Kevin sued and he got lots of recognition from it. 187 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: He spoke to Congress, he was in Hillary Clinton's book, 188 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: he met the President. Kevin became Trooper Dad. His lawyers 189 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: expected the state to quickly settle the case. These rights 190 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: were not abstractions. This is bedrock stuff, family values, equal treatment, 191 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: that should you cut across gender lines. That was Robin Cocky, 192 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: another of Kevin's lawyers. They all thought Kevin was the 193 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: perfect plaintiff. One of the cool aspects of the case 194 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: was that Kevin was not a granola crunching hippie. Kevin was, 195 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, just a classic state trooper straight out of 196 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: Central Casting. He was a lifelong Republican n R A 197 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: member Aboard Again Christian, a rock solid Eastern Shore Conservative, 198 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: and that made the sort of personal dynamics of the 199 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: case fascinating. Robin was surprised that the police and the 200 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: state dug in, but most state troopers were mail What 201 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: if others wanted to take print to leave that could 202 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: be disruptive not just to the agency's work, but to 203 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: how the agency saw itself. They had a force of 204 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: twelve or fift troopers, probably ninety seven are men, and 205 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: they probably didn't want all these men Willy Nilly taken 206 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: the leave following the birth of their child. Kevin was 207 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: taking a stand against his employer, and not just any employer, 208 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: but the Maryland State Police. He was threatening how the 209 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: mostly male organization functioned. It would have to take account 210 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: of its employees home lives. It would have to become 211 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: more flexible. They were going to have to give male 212 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: employees the same leave benefits as the women were entitled to. 213 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: That was pure and simple. From the time he folowed 214 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: the lawsuit to the trial in Kevin showed up for work. 215 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: He flew in the helicopter. He gave medical assistance, He 216 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: dealt with criminals at home. He helped care for his daughter, 217 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: Page and a second daughter, Hope. Some troopers were supportive, 218 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: others stand offish. Some of the I guess more traditional 219 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: state Police employees were pretty reserved or maybe puzzled by 220 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: the whole stay at home dad kind of thing. But uh, 221 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: there were lots of severe employees in the state Police. 222 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: There were a lot of young troopers that were absolutely supportive. 223 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: But suing your employer is stressful. You're hyper vigilant, is 224 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 1: I guess the word that the professionals might use you 225 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: just you just want to be on your game and 226 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: not give any room for disciplinary action to be to 227 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: be taken. So it was pretty difficult. Kevin became depressed 228 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: and sought psychiatric treatment. The state would later use that 229 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: against him, and then finally in January, after four years 230 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: of waiting, Kevin's trial began. The law was pretty clear. 231 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: Men are entitled to use fm l A too. It 232 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: doesn't matter if their wives are healthy or sick. The 233 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: trial lasted two weeks. The jury deliberated for only two hours. 234 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: It awarded Kevin three hundred and seventy five thousand dollars 235 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: for emotional damages in the first ever sex discrimination verdict 236 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: in conjunction with the Family and Medical Leave Act. There 237 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: were several times the jury gasped at revelations in the 238 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: in the process of the trial from the people that 239 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: were testifying on behalf of the State Police, and so, 240 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: you know, we felt that there was an emotional impact. 241 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: The state appealed the verdict eventually that three seventy five 242 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. It was reduced to about forty There were 243 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: also repercussions against Kevin because he broke this code of manhood. 244 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: When he returned to work after the trial, he was grounded. 245 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: The police insisted he undergo a psychiatric evaluation before he 246 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: could rejoin the flight paramedics. The Baltimore Sun said using 247 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: his past mental health issues against him was an old 248 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: ruse of dictators. Kevin calls it retaliation. They never came 249 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: and got my police car, my gun, or my badge. 250 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: They never suspended my arrest powers, but they did not 251 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: let me fly. Six months after the verdict, in July, 252 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: Kevin retired from the Maryland Police Force. He didn't get 253 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: a party or a parting gift. He was forty two. 254 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: Kevin became a stay at home dad, and when his 255 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: daughters were older, he returned to being a paramedic, but 256 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: not for the state. Kevin's case set the legal precedent 257 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: for more men to take time off when their kids 258 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: are born, but the stigma remains, and many of the 259 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: men we spoke to say they still find it hard 260 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: to break the gender norms. I'm expected to handle one 261 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: of what happens with work and generating income. Right, I 262 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: am the only person that generates an income at my house, 263 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: and so I'm a percent responsible for that and sort 264 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: of the pressure is on to make sure that I'm 265 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: performing at a high level at work so that that 266 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: income can be there to support our family. That I 267 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: feel my guilt is that I'm actually going to work 268 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: and not able to spend time with her. It's not 269 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: the other way around. It's not like work is I 270 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: feel bad for leaving. It's feel bad for not being 271 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: with her and going to work. But for now, Yeah, 272 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: there's these sometimes these moments when you just watch opportunities 273 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: have to float away. I've never been penalized for leaving 274 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: work to go and be with the kids, but they'll 275 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: say things like, oh, you're going home to babysit yor 276 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: time is the most precious and valuable commodity that we have. 277 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: If there were more Kevin's and from day one, more 278 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: men were involved at home, women wouldn't be the only 279 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: ones taking time away from work and taking that pay 280 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: hin But getting them to actually be involved parents is 281 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: a whole other challenge. Keith Parmenter, who's a law professor 282 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: at will lamb At University says that partly they're worried 283 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: about the professional consequences. He studied paternity leave patterns over 284 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: the past several decades and what happens to the men 285 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: who take it. Those fathers are more likely to be 286 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: punished at work, to be viewed as less committed to work, 287 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: to be viewed as frankly less masculine. And so the 288 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: code and the pressure coming cultural and from employers specifically 289 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: is loud and clear to men that if you dare 290 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: sort of break that gender norm and and actually engaging caregiving, 291 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: you're going to be punished. But another part of it 292 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: is that we still don't expect much of men. We 293 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: still live in a world where celebrity men are championed 294 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: for acknowledging they have a kid. How that is the 295 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: bar that low are these guys that week and that 296 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: cowardly that we're golf clapping him for being like, yeah, 297 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: I have a child, Like really, really, it's sad. That's 298 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: Alexis Ohanion a k A. Mr. Serena Williams. Alexis is 299 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: married to one of the greatest and most successful athletes 300 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: of all time, but he's also successful in his own right. 301 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: He founded Reddit and now runs his own venture capital firm. 302 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: In the last year and a half since his daughter, 303 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: Alexis Olympia o'hannian Jr. Was born, Alexis has cultivated a 304 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: pub like image of himself as a woke, involved dad. 305 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: All you have to do is look at his Instagram. 306 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: Where's your belly? I have eaten it. Alexis is on 307 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: a mission to get more guys to act like him. Recently, 308 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: he did the media around talking all about how important 309 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: it is to take paternity leave. Of all the things 310 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: we are asking men to do, spending some time with 311 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: their newborn and their partners not I mean not the 312 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: hardest thing we've been asked to do. When his daughter 313 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 1: was born, he took all of the paid paternity leave 314 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: his venture capital firm offers, sixteen weeks in total. I 315 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: think more and more men need to hear from other dads, 316 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: are expecting dads that they took the time and how 317 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: great it was, and also how awful it was, and 318 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: how because it was so awful sometimes made it so 319 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: great when it wasn't like it's not like it's it 320 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: is not all roses, but as a time you will 321 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: never get it back. And yeah, even the three a 322 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: m where you're just like praying that she's going to 323 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: go back to sleep. To be fair, Alexis and Serena 324 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: are wealthy and privileged. Most men in the US don't 325 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: get any paid paternity leave at all, but most companies 326 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley, where Alexis is based do offer paid 327 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: parental leave that's for both moms and dads to take 328 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: time off to care for a newborn, and California, where 329 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: Alexis lives, also has a paid family leave law on 330 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: the books, but men still generally don't take it. Three 331 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: quarters of the people who take paid leave in California 332 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: are women, and fathers who do take paid leave aren't 333 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: taking very much, just around two weeks. So even with 334 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: generous laws and policies, women are still the one staying 335 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: at home. Alexis says he wants to change that first 336 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: by normalizing paternity leave. If other men see him taking 337 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: the leave, they all think it's okay to take time 338 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: off too. And I heard from a lot of founders 339 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: in the valley. I heard from a lot of employees 340 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: in the valley how important it was that they saw 341 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: me taking my full sixteen weeks and being really outspoken 342 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: about it. Once the stigma washes away, it'll be pretty 343 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: quick to adapt. And and if Sweden is any indication, 344 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen the latte papas. The 345 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: latte papa trend is fascinating in Sweden. It's just all 346 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: these rugged Swedish dudes going out with their baby bjorns. 347 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: That's right, he said, the latte papa's. So in Sweden, 348 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: new parents get more than a year of paid time off, 349 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 1: and dads are required to take three months of that leave. 350 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: That's where the latte papa's come in. Their new dads 351 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: who congregate in cafes with their babies strapped to their chest. 352 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: They're even trend stories about them. So how much fun 353 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: when you're taking six months? I'm taking six months to 354 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm having months this moment. By the way, the pay 355 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: gap there is smaller, it's less than according to the 356 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: European Commission, compared to a round in the US. But 357 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: the reason men in Sweden take leave isn't just because 358 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: other men do it. It's because there are incentives. Sweden 359 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,479 Speaker 1: introduced what was called a daddy quota. Fathers there were 360 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: given thirty days of paid leave, but if they didn't 361 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: use it, they lost the paid time off. After that, 362 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: the proportion of men taking leave almost doubled since Sweden 363 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: has up that quota to ninety days, and now even 364 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: more men take the leave. In the US, men don't 365 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: have much of an incentive to take time off at all. 366 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: Most men only get leave through fm l A, which 367 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: means months without a paycheck, something most people can't afford. 368 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: They also face high workplace penalties if they do anything 369 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: more than bare minimum parenting. Of course, paternity leave is 370 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: just the beginning. Like Keith said, things get worse for 371 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: men at work the more they tried to be involved 372 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: at home. Experts call this the fatherhood cliff. Men who 373 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: take on more childcare responsibilities lose status in the workplace, 374 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: their careers can take a dive. If we want to 375 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: help women, we have to make it normal for men 376 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: to be involved, not just when their kids are infants. 377 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: So how can we change that? Alexis thinks we can 378 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: start by adding some incentives. He recently started a million 379 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: dollar fund with DOV to pay new dads five thousand 380 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: dollars each to take time off. Two dads will essentially 381 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: be paid to stay home, which isn't very many. It's 382 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: a very small start, and even Alexis knows that it's 383 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: not the be all, end all solution. Here he is 384 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: talking about his initiative on the Today Show. I'm still 385 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: actively campaigning for a federal law to pass. We're the 386 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: only industrialized nation that does not have any kind of 387 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: paid family leave, and it's something that that I think 388 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: we deserve for nation that really believes in family values 389 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: like I know we do. I want to give eric 390 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: cover to the guy who doesn't have the economic peace 391 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: of mind that I know that we have, because he 392 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: he should have that chance to be with his partner, 393 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: to be with his child. You don't get that time back. 394 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: Making parentally normal for men won't solve the pay gap 395 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: on its own. There's eighteen years of a kid's life 396 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: at home after that. But if motherhood makes the pay 397 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: gap so much worse, maybe those first few months of 398 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: fatherhood is one place to start looking for how to 399 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: fix it. Next week on the paycheck. What happens to 400 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: the global economy when women stop having kids. We are 401 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: all going to eventually face slower population growth or shrinking populations, 402 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: and that is going to have to change if people 403 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: want to see the kind of growth that previous generations 404 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: have enjoyed. Thanks for listening to the Paycheck. If you 405 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: like the show, please head on over to Apple Podcasts 406 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to rate, review, and subscribe. This 407 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: show was hosted and reported by me Rebecca Greenfield and 408 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: reported by Susan Burfield, Jillian Goodman, and Alexis ben Venisti. 409 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: This episode was edited by Jillian Goodman and produced by 410 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: Samantha Gatzick. We also had production help from Francesca Levie, 411 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: Janet Patkin, and Liz Smith. Our original music is by 412 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: Leo Sidron and thanks to all the dads we spoke 413 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: to for this episode. Francesca Levi is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts.