WEBVTT - Judging Sam: Jury Selection 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:20.716 Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to 0:00:20.756 --> 0:00:22.636 this episode, I want to let you know that you 0:00:22.636 --> 0:00:25.916 can listen to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial 0:00:25.956 --> 0:00:29.476 of Sam Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin 0:00:29.556 --> 0:00:33.516 Plus subscriber, and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive 0:00:33.516 --> 0:00:37.356 access to ad free and early bingeable podcasts like Paul 0:00:37.436 --> 0:00:42.236 McCartney's new podcast, McCartney A Life and Lyrics, Malcolm Gladwell's 0:00:42.236 --> 0:00:46.716 revisionist history, The Happiness Lab from Doctor Lorie Santos, and 0:00:46.836 --> 0:00:49.956 tons of other top shows from Pushkin. Sign up an 0:00:49.996 --> 0:00:52.916 Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin, dot fm. 0:00:52.556 --> 0:00:53.516 Slash Plus. 0:00:55.236 --> 0:00:58.316 Welcome to Judging Sam The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. 0:00:58.636 --> 0:01:02.196 I'm Michael Lewis. Bankman Freed was worth tens of billions 0:01:02.236 --> 0:01:06.276 of dollars before FTX his cryptocurrency exchange came apart at 0:01:06.276 --> 0:01:09.556 the seams, and now he's being tried for financial crimes. 0:01:09.556 --> 0:01:11.156 They could send him to prison for the rest of 0:01:11.196 --> 0:01:21.556 his life. Lydia Jean Cott host today. Thanks for joining us. 0:01:22.436 --> 0:01:26.076 I'm Lyddy jean Cott. The trial of Sam Bankman Freed 0:01:26.476 --> 0:01:29.836 is officially underway. I arrived at the courthouse for the 0:01:29.876 --> 0:01:32.756 Southern District of New York at six am Tuesday morning. 0:01:33.356 --> 0:01:38.596 It's this big, imposing building with revolving golden doors. Reporters 0:01:38.636 --> 0:01:42.116 though use a side entrance. When I got there, there 0:01:42.196 --> 0:01:44.916 was already a handful sitting on the ground. Someone even 0:01:44.956 --> 0:01:45.996 brought a folding chair. 0:01:46.356 --> 0:01:48.036 The mood was friendly and excited. 0:01:48.236 --> 0:01:50.596 It was kind of like we're all waiting for a 0:01:50.636 --> 0:01:53.356 flight together and we're friends. I spoke to a few 0:01:53.356 --> 0:01:56.076 people while waiting for the court doors to open, and 0:01:56.556 --> 0:01:57.596 why are you here this morning? 0:01:58.396 --> 0:02:00.396 Hi? My name is Nick Day. I'm a reporter and 0:02:00.476 --> 0:02:04.236 editor White coined USK. We are covering the trial of 0:02:04.356 --> 0:02:08.756 Sam Bankman freed. We broke the original balance sheet last year, 0:02:09.516 --> 0:02:12.636 ultimately led to the situation FTX found itself in when 0:02:12.636 --> 0:02:15.596 it filed for bankruptcy in November last year. And so 0:02:15.876 --> 0:02:16.396 what's your nat? 0:02:16.716 --> 0:02:20.076 Josh Blancy will pay you. We both work for The 0:02:20.076 --> 0:02:22.876 Times of London. I'm interested if they watched Michael Lewis 0:02:22.876 --> 0:02:26.276 in sixteen minutes, to be honest, because it's guy. I 0:02:26.276 --> 0:02:27.956 thought it was very interesting when he called his book 0:02:27.956 --> 0:02:29.916 a letter to the jury, so to interest see if 0:02:29.956 --> 0:02:31.316 that comes up, they're going to have to spend a 0:02:31.316 --> 0:02:34.676 lot of time explaining, Okay, here's a what is a cryptocurrency? 0:02:34.676 --> 0:02:35.556 What does in exchange? 0:02:35.676 --> 0:02:38.636 I don't fucking understand how well. 0:02:38.716 --> 0:02:41.436 Our goal is to help you understand at least half 0:02:41.436 --> 0:02:44.596 of it. When we were finally let inside, we waited 0:02:44.596 --> 0:02:47.236 in another long line to give up our electronics, and 0:02:47.276 --> 0:02:49.836 then we were ushered into overflow rooms where we could 0:02:49.836 --> 0:02:53.276 watch the proceedings on monitors. Even though the image was greeny, 0:02:53.476 --> 0:02:56.196 we could tell Sam had gotten a haircut. His famous 0:02:56.236 --> 0:03:00.156 curls were definitely more closely cropped. Once court was in session, 0:03:00.556 --> 0:03:05.676 the first order of business was selecting a jury. More specifically, 0:03:05.876 --> 0:03:09.756 their process known as voidir, which is when potential are 0:03:09.836 --> 0:03:13.356 questioned by a judge before a jury is selected. The 0:03:13.436 --> 0:03:16.316 legal teams for both the defense and the prosecution had 0:03:16.316 --> 0:03:19.396 submitted a list of proposed questions, which I was able 0:03:19.436 --> 0:03:22.636 to look through before the trial started. The questions ranged 0:03:22.676 --> 0:03:26.516 from what potential jurors did for a living, to whether 0:03:26.556 --> 0:03:28.716 they'd be able to vote to convict on this trial, 0:03:29.236 --> 0:03:31.996 and even if they had seen Michael Lewis's appearance on 0:03:32.076 --> 0:03:35.596 sixty Minutes this past Sunday. A lot of people seemed 0:03:35.636 --> 0:03:37.876 like they were trying to get out of participating. One 0:03:37.956 --> 0:03:39.956 dury said they had a wedding in a few weeks, 0:03:40.116 --> 0:03:42.836 another was applying for jobs. Others couldn't get the time 0:03:42.836 --> 0:03:45.236 off from jobs that they had. Someone else said they 0:03:45.236 --> 0:03:47.356 were scheduled to go to El Salvador for a Miss 0:03:47.476 --> 0:03:51.236 Universe pageant. One potential juror said he couldn't serve because 0:03:51.236 --> 0:03:55.156 he didn't understand crypto, but the judge didn't seem convinced. 0:03:55.636 --> 0:03:57.796 By the end of the day, there were fifty potential 0:03:57.876 --> 0:04:01.076 jurors left. On day two, each of them will introduce 0:04:01.116 --> 0:04:03.596 themselves for one minute so the lawyers can get a 0:04:03.596 --> 0:04:07.356 feel for who they are. Then twelve jurors and six 0:04:07.396 --> 0:04:10.116 alternates will be seated, and they will be the people 0:04:10.476 --> 0:04:14.316 who will ultimately decide Sam's fate. I wanted to understand 0:04:14.316 --> 0:04:17.716 more about how lawyers think about jury selection, like what 0:04:17.756 --> 0:04:19.876 are they looking for? How do they know who might 0:04:19.916 --> 0:04:23.396 be favorable to their side? Today on the show, a 0:04:23.436 --> 0:04:27.196 conversation with Ellen Leggett. Ellen's maybe the best person to 0:04:27.236 --> 0:04:30.436 talk to us about this. She's a trial consultant and 0:04:30.476 --> 0:04:33.636 she's been helping lawyers select juries and cases for over 0:04:33.716 --> 0:04:36.716 three decades. Ellen welcome to judging. Sam. 0:04:37.836 --> 0:04:40.716 Thank you very much, Old Jay, And I was wondering. 0:04:40.436 --> 0:04:44.036 If you could start by explaining what exactly a jury 0:04:44.076 --> 0:04:45.236 trial consultant does. 0:04:45.436 --> 0:04:50.316 Absolutely, as you said, I've been a jury consultant for 0:04:50.636 --> 0:04:53.476 three decades, which is to say that I've been doing 0:04:53.516 --> 0:04:58.796 this pretty much since the start of psychologists assisting lawyers 0:04:58.836 --> 0:05:01.876 in the courtroom. I am a psychologist by training. Not 0:05:02.196 --> 0:05:09.236 all jury consultants are, but clearly in many situations and 0:05:09.676 --> 0:05:13.996 having a person in the courtroom to assist the lawyers 0:05:14.436 --> 0:05:18.076 is not new, even though many people in the country 0:05:18.116 --> 0:05:21.076 haven't really understood what the role of a jury consultant is. 0:05:22.076 --> 0:05:26.756 We do many things that surprisingly don't involve a crystal ball. 0:05:29.476 --> 0:05:32.836 Many people think we can just walk into a courtroom, 0:05:33.076 --> 0:05:37.756 sit there and divine things about the jurors, and would 0:05:37.756 --> 0:05:41.636 that it were that easy. But no divine powers are 0:05:41.716 --> 0:05:44.916 necessary or brought into the courtroom. In fact, there's a 0:05:44.956 --> 0:05:49.556 lot of science that is behind usually what we are 0:05:50.196 --> 0:05:53.236 doing as we look at the jury during that vas 0:05:53.276 --> 0:05:55.316 der process and the selection process. 0:05:57.236 --> 0:05:59.476 And I'm curious that someone who spends a lot of 0:05:59.476 --> 0:06:02.036 time thinking about the jury, like, how do you think 0:06:02.076 --> 0:06:03.116 about the jury's role? 0:06:04.436 --> 0:06:07.996 Yeah, you know, the jury has a very very hard role. 0:06:08.516 --> 0:06:13.276 If one and thinks about entering a class in college 0:06:13.436 --> 0:06:15.796 for something that you never in a million years would 0:06:15.796 --> 0:06:18.916 want to take. That's how these jurors feel when they're 0:06:18.916 --> 0:06:22.876 walking into a trial, and usually it's a trial about 0:06:22.876 --> 0:06:27.356 which they will have very little technical information. So they 0:06:27.396 --> 0:06:30.756 have a very hard job because the rules really are 0:06:30.836 --> 0:06:34.436 set up so that they will not be able to 0:06:34.556 --> 0:06:39.156 stand too closely to the issues. But they know that 0:06:39.276 --> 0:06:42.596 they are, besides the judge, the most important people in 0:06:42.636 --> 0:06:45.356 that courtroom, and they want to do their job well 0:06:45.756 --> 0:06:49.316 and they want to render a fair verdict. There's nothing 0:06:49.436 --> 0:06:52.556 worse for a jury than to think the public will 0:06:52.916 --> 0:06:54.916 believe that they did the wrong thing. 0:06:55.316 --> 0:06:58.356 Usually in life, when you're making a big decision, you 0:06:58.396 --> 0:07:00.756 want to be like reading everything there is to read 0:07:00.796 --> 0:07:02.676 about it. You want to be talking to the people 0:07:02.676 --> 0:07:05.116 that you trust. And in Sam mekmund Fried's you Know 0:07:05.196 --> 0:07:07.756 is looking at the jury instructions and it specifically says, 0:07:08.236 --> 0:07:09.916 and I think it's always like this, you can't talk 0:07:09.916 --> 0:07:12.636 to anyone, you can't read anything, like why have we 0:07:12.716 --> 0:07:15.196 decided that that's the best way for a jury to 0:07:15.196 --> 0:07:15.956 reach a verdict? 0:07:16.796 --> 0:07:19.876 Our forefathers in their wisdom thought that they were doing 0:07:19.916 --> 0:07:23.836 the right thing to put limits on what jurors could 0:07:23.836 --> 0:07:27.916 do to gather information. And I don't think they were wrong. 0:07:28.116 --> 0:07:32.276 I think instructing the jurors to rely upon what they 0:07:32.356 --> 0:07:37.796 hear in the courtroom as well as their experiences in life, 0:07:37.876 --> 0:07:40.316 we can't tell them to pack those up in a 0:07:40.356 --> 0:07:44.196 suitcase and leave them all at home. But they are 0:07:44.636 --> 0:07:49.276 given parameters to focus them on the evidence because there 0:07:49.316 --> 0:07:53.836 are so many legal rules that govern what evidence they 0:07:53.876 --> 0:07:55.436 can and cannot hear. 0:07:56.516 --> 0:07:59.676 How much say the lawyers have over who ends up 0:07:59.676 --> 0:08:00.556 on the jury. 0:08:01.076 --> 0:08:04.836 That's a really good question. The lawyers are ultimately in 0:08:05.316 --> 0:08:09.676 charge of jury selection. But what is most daunt is 0:08:09.716 --> 0:08:13.196 the fact that although we talk about it as a 0:08:13.276 --> 0:08:18.356 jury selection, it truly is jury d selection. There are 0:08:18.436 --> 0:08:22.116 many rules about who can actually be excused, and that 0:08:22.276 --> 0:08:27.036 is all that lawyers can do is excuse jurors. And 0:08:27.076 --> 0:08:30.756 we can talk more about the different rules for excusing jurors, 0:08:30.796 --> 0:08:34.556 but it's really de selection, not selection. 0:08:34.916 --> 0:08:38.756 Yeah, for sure. And is there a limited amount of 0:08:39.156 --> 0:08:42.156 people you can excuse? Like is it three strikes or 0:08:42.196 --> 0:08:43.276 three people you can. 0:08:45.356 --> 0:08:48.556 Three strikes you're out? Well, there are a couple of 0:08:48.596 --> 0:08:53.196 ways that jurors can be excused, and some the judge 0:08:53.276 --> 0:08:56.676 is the ultimate arbiter of and he has the decision 0:08:56.756 --> 0:08:59.836 to make, and others are at the discretion of the lawyers. 0:09:00.396 --> 0:09:03.996 First of all, time availability is something that they all 0:09:04.076 --> 0:09:07.436 care about, and this is a six week trial, so 0:09:07.876 --> 0:09:10.876 they could be excused by the judge if they really 0:09:11.396 --> 0:09:14.516 don't get paid for jury duty and make a case 0:09:14.556 --> 0:09:17.876 that they will have financial hardship. The judge can move 0:09:17.956 --> 0:09:21.436 to excuse ors on that basis. Also if there are 0:09:21.556 --> 0:09:26.516 medical reasons or time other time interferences like being the 0:09:26.516 --> 0:09:30.676 sole caretaker for an elderly person, but other than time 0:09:30.796 --> 0:09:35.956 or financial qualifications. The next category is do you have 0:09:36.276 --> 0:09:40.796 a connection to the case, And you'll see that there 0:09:40.796 --> 0:09:43.556 are many questions asked by the judge and proposed by 0:09:43.596 --> 0:09:46.236 the lawyers that aim to find out whether there's a 0:09:46.276 --> 0:09:51.596 direct connection, because that would create the appearance of bias, 0:09:51.836 --> 0:09:56.956 and those people would be excused most likely. And usually 0:09:56.996 --> 0:10:01.716 the lawyers will propose that they would like to excuse 0:10:01.756 --> 0:10:05.156 someone for cause, but the judge decides and then, as 0:10:05.196 --> 0:10:10.036 you pointed out, three strikes, yes, those are freebies. The 0:10:10.156 --> 0:10:17.356 lawyers can choose to excuse. Usually three jurors each side, 0:10:17.356 --> 0:10:20.796 but again, under some circumstances, that number may be different, 0:10:21.316 --> 0:10:24.156 and judges can handle that process very differently. 0:10:24.196 --> 0:10:27.956 Interesting if you were working as a jury selection expert 0:10:28.036 --> 0:10:31.876 in this particular case, Let's say you're working for the prosecution, 0:10:32.556 --> 0:10:36.076 what would your dreamer look like? Could you describe them? 0:10:37.516 --> 0:10:42.556 Well, dream jurors are always going to be neutral jurors 0:10:43.076 --> 0:10:48.516 that have the ability to see the evidence. Clearly, I 0:10:48.596 --> 0:10:52.796 have to say that this crystal ball does not enable 0:10:52.876 --> 0:10:56.316 me to divine what I think an ideal juror would 0:10:56.316 --> 0:10:58.796 be for each side. We actually focus on who the 0:10:58.876 --> 0:11:02.316 dangerous jurors would be. For the very reason that I said, 0:11:02.356 --> 0:11:04.836 we can't go out and choose which ones are the 0:11:04.876 --> 0:11:09.076 ideal jers. All we can do is de select dangerous jures. 0:11:09.916 --> 0:11:13.316 So we're looking for, more likely, who are the jurors 0:11:13.716 --> 0:11:18.716 that can hurt either side. For Sam Bangman freed as 0:11:18.756 --> 0:11:23.196 the defendant being accused of fraud in a financial collapse, 0:11:23.956 --> 0:11:30.196 obviously having victims who have in some way been affected financially, 0:11:30.276 --> 0:11:34.876 whether it's from the cryptocurrency collapse or other kinds of 0:11:34.916 --> 0:11:39.516 financial fraud, those would be very dangerous jurors. Jurors who 0:11:39.556 --> 0:11:43.956 can identify with those that may have been victimized by 0:11:44.036 --> 0:11:44.916 this conduct. 0:11:45.036 --> 0:11:47.756 But would those people be disqualified or would they have 0:11:47.796 --> 0:11:49.156 to be used Would you have to use it one 0:11:49.156 --> 0:11:52.836 of your strikes to get someone out? 0:11:52.356 --> 0:12:00.516 They most likely would be stricken by the defense team. However, 0:12:00.636 --> 0:12:04.996 they will do their very best strategically if there's someone 0:12:05.036 --> 0:12:07.756 that they're worried about that they will make a case 0:12:07.876 --> 0:12:11.836 to the judge that the prior experiences that this juror 0:12:11.916 --> 0:12:15.636 may have had creates a bias that they would not 0:12:15.716 --> 0:12:18.556 be able to put aside, which is why ultimately it's 0:12:18.636 --> 0:12:21.956 the judge who makes the call as to whether there's 0:12:21.956 --> 0:12:27.876 a potential cause strike there. One of the things that 0:12:28.116 --> 0:12:35.396 is very interesting in this case is the extreme intelligence 0:12:35.716 --> 0:12:41.116 of Sam Bankman fried in a somewhat eccentric way that 0:12:41.516 --> 0:12:46.156 may create division among jurors as to whether he's a 0:12:46.236 --> 0:12:50.476 boy genius that we should all be admiring. And he 0:12:51.356 --> 0:12:56.156 didn't know a lot about what the official rules were. 0:12:56.236 --> 0:12:59.236 He was just really smart and managed to put this 0:12:59.396 --> 0:13:04.716 all together. But he's not some premeditated crook, and therefore 0:13:04.836 --> 0:13:10.116 he's somewhat of a sympathetic figure because as he had 0:13:11.316 --> 0:13:14.956 he didn't have knowledge really of the all the rules 0:13:15.076 --> 0:13:18.636 in the pond that he was playing in. So I 0:13:18.676 --> 0:13:23.956 think that's the beneficial juror for him. But the more 0:13:24.156 --> 0:13:27.276 likely ajor that he would be worried about is someone 0:13:27.396 --> 0:13:33.396 who is very suspicious of how a thirty year old 0:13:33.556 --> 0:13:36.836 can be one of the richest people in the world 0:13:37.396 --> 0:13:41.516 without having done something wrong. People who are I would say, 0:13:41.676 --> 0:13:47.116 actually older jurors, who are of the generation that has 0:13:47.276 --> 0:13:51.316 to work hard, would be more dangerous for him than 0:13:51.436 --> 0:13:52.676 younger jurors. 0:13:54.356 --> 0:13:56.996 See that's interesting. That's why maybe I should have it off, 0:13:57.036 --> 0:14:00.516 because I would think that maybe you would want boomers 0:14:00.596 --> 0:14:02.956 because they would be like, oh, Sam reminds me of 0:14:02.996 --> 0:14:06.876 my son. I think maybe the younger generation is more 0:14:06.916 --> 0:14:11.716 skeptical of billionaires in general, more liberal. We're believing that, 0:14:12.316 --> 0:14:14.636 you know, all money shouldn't be concentrated in the few. 0:14:14.676 --> 0:14:16.396 I mean, you have to be speaking. These are all 0:14:16.516 --> 0:14:18.076 vast generalizations, I guess. 0:14:18.156 --> 0:14:23.116 But you know, that's a really interesting point that you've 0:14:23.156 --> 0:14:27.556 just made LJ. Is that we are doing vast generalizations here, 0:14:28.036 --> 0:14:31.476 and a lot of what lawyers do in the absence 0:14:31.716 --> 0:14:36.636 of a jury consultant is basically rely upon stereotypes and 0:14:36.676 --> 0:14:40.636 their own experiences. With people, and that's the way the 0:14:40.716 --> 0:14:43.356 law has been for years and years and years. When 0:14:43.396 --> 0:14:46.476 psychologists or jury consultants start getting into the mix, it's 0:14:46.556 --> 0:14:50.916 just a check on those presuppositions. And often that is 0:14:50.996 --> 0:14:55.036 why we do the focus groups or the research in 0:14:55.156 --> 0:14:57.076 order to test them out for ourselves. 0:14:57.556 --> 0:14:59.596 And when you say you do these focus groups, like, 0:14:59.836 --> 0:15:03.116 how does that work? Do you have the lawyers give 0:15:03.156 --> 0:15:06.276 opening statements and you have twelve random people listen to 0:15:06.316 --> 0:15:08.796 the opening statements and then they say what they think 0:15:08.796 --> 0:15:09.076 about it? 0:15:09.436 --> 0:15:14.756 That's pretty close, LJ. You could have my job. You see, 0:15:15.356 --> 0:15:19.116 we're trying to provide a sample of what jurors in 0:15:19.156 --> 0:15:24.396 the trial venue might think. So we sample broadly. We 0:15:24.476 --> 0:15:27.516 may have many more people than that listen to the 0:15:27.596 --> 0:15:32.716 lawyers describe the case, and divide them into multiple groups, 0:15:32.996 --> 0:15:37.476 so we may have the ability to compare this group 0:15:37.636 --> 0:15:40.876 versus that group. This group found him guilty, this group didn't. 0:15:41.156 --> 0:15:42.876 What were the differences? And why? 0:15:43.716 --> 0:15:46.796 You know, you're a trend as a psychologist, and you 0:15:46.916 --> 0:15:49.636 start paying attention to the jurors as soon as when 0:15:49.636 --> 0:15:51.316 you're working on a case, right as soon as they 0:15:51.356 --> 0:15:54.596 walk into a courtroom. Could you describe what is it 0:15:54.836 --> 0:15:56.796 that you're looking for. What are you paying attention to? 0:15:57.156 --> 0:15:59.876 And specifically, let's pretend that it's Sam's case, what would 0:15:59.876 --> 0:16:00.716 you be watching out for. 0:16:02.156 --> 0:16:07.556 So it's a very tense day. Your adrenaline is definitely 0:16:07.636 --> 0:16:12.076 running and unusual sitting at council table with my clients, 0:16:13.676 --> 0:16:17.156 next to the lawyers, and in this case, if I 0:16:17.156 --> 0:16:19.476 were working for Sam bankmin Freed, which I'm not, I 0:16:19.476 --> 0:16:22.236 would be sitting next to him and his lawyers at 0:16:22.276 --> 0:16:27.956 council table. I immediately start looking at the demographic makeup 0:16:27.996 --> 0:16:30.596 of the group as they walk in, and this will 0:16:30.596 --> 0:16:35.556 be a courthouse filled with potential jurors. I'm immediately looking 0:16:35.596 --> 0:16:38.516 at how many men, how many women? Making mental tallies, 0:16:38.996 --> 0:16:41.396 trying to get a sense of the demographics. How many 0:16:41.436 --> 0:16:45.716 gray heads do I see, how many people carrying iPads 0:16:45.756 --> 0:16:49.476 and technology, whether they're dressed neatly, whether they're dressed in 0:16:49.476 --> 0:16:55.276 a business suit, whether they're treating the environment formally or informally. 0:16:55.876 --> 0:16:59.916 Looking for things that may be relevant in this matter, 0:17:00.476 --> 0:17:04.436 but looks are deceiving. I want to be very clear 0:17:04.476 --> 0:17:09.876 about that body language and appearances are not matter the 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:15.556 most in jury selection, but you can get some assessments 0:17:15.596 --> 0:17:17.196 of personality. 0:17:16.956 --> 0:17:20.916 And as a psychologist, when you're listening to the jury speak, 0:17:21.236 --> 0:17:24.316 when they're answering the questions, how do you listen differently 0:17:24.356 --> 0:17:26.756 than your average person? How does your training help you 0:17:26.796 --> 0:17:28.876 with that? 0:17:28.876 --> 0:17:33.636 That is a great question because I could be sitting 0:17:33.716 --> 0:17:36.556 at council table with three other lawyers and none of 0:17:36.556 --> 0:17:38.916 them will have heard what I heard. It's not the 0:17:38.916 --> 0:17:41.036 content of what they say, it's how they say it. 0:17:41.636 --> 0:17:48.956 So I am looking at whether they are being truthful? 0:17:49.116 --> 0:17:52.316 In my eyes is how forthright are they being? Are 0:17:52.316 --> 0:17:56.356 they trying too hard to get on this jury by 0:17:56.516 --> 0:18:02.916 being very loquacious and talking a lot? Are they being 0:18:03.116 --> 0:18:07.036 more attentive to one lawyer or the other, But also 0:18:07.996 --> 0:18:13.676 they tipping their hand inadvertently because they may use the 0:18:13.716 --> 0:18:19.436 word rules, for example, in describing their job, and the 0:18:19.556 --> 0:18:21.076 word rules may come up. 0:18:21.196 --> 0:18:23.036 And Yeah, and I definitely think in the case of 0:18:23.076 --> 0:18:26.516 Sam Menkman Freed as the defense, if you're on the 0:18:26.516 --> 0:18:29.716 defense team, you probably wouldn't want someone who is very 0:18:29.716 --> 0:18:30.436 into rules. 0:18:31.476 --> 0:18:32.436 Same same. 0:18:33.476 --> 0:18:35.756 You know, this is such a high profile case. People 0:18:35.796 --> 0:18:38.796 are going to be coming in maybe having heard about Sam. 0:18:38.876 --> 0:18:40.636 What impact does that make on Dury's selection. 0:18:42.036 --> 0:18:45.556 Yeah, it's a really good question, and as I noted 0:18:45.756 --> 0:18:49.716 in these submitted questions for Vader, both sides are interested 0:18:49.716 --> 0:18:53.076 in what have you heard in the pre trial days? 0:18:53.116 --> 0:18:59.116 And then the publicity. First off, jurors will know that 0:18:59.156 --> 0:19:04.116 it's an important case because of the publicity, and that 0:19:04.396 --> 0:19:11.756 actually makes them sometimes really want to be on the jury, 0:19:12.156 --> 0:19:15.476 and it may also intimidate them and they feel like 0:19:15.596 --> 0:19:17.796 it's going to be too much in the glare of 0:19:17.996 --> 0:19:22.316 publicity and they don't want that responsibility. And sometimes that 0:19:22.556 --> 0:19:26.716 in itself gets brought out in jury selection when jurors 0:19:26.756 --> 0:19:32.476 start talking. But overall, I think that exposure is not 0:19:32.556 --> 0:19:37.036 necessarily what either side needs to worry about. It's whether 0:19:37.276 --> 0:19:41.356 jurors feel that they have been persuaded to one side 0:19:41.436 --> 0:19:44.076 or the other already, and then what have you heard 0:19:44.436 --> 0:19:48.836 and what opinions have you formed? Now that's the jackpot 0:19:48.916 --> 0:19:51.596 if you can get the judge to ask what opinions 0:19:51.636 --> 0:19:54.716 have you formed? If they say that they've formed an 0:19:54.756 --> 0:19:58.316 opinion already, the chances are they could be excused for cause, 0:19:58.716 --> 0:20:01.516 which is why I think it was on Sam bangman 0:20:01.556 --> 0:20:05.956 Fried's questions they actually asked, have you posted anything on 0:20:06.036 --> 0:20:13.636 social media about this case? About crypto currency? About FTX Alameda, 0:20:13.716 --> 0:20:16.756 have you posted anything, Because that's someone who has an 0:20:16.796 --> 0:20:21.036 opinion and they've shared it, so they're much more dangerous, 0:20:21.116 --> 0:20:21.876 much more dangerous. 0:20:21.956 --> 0:20:23.516 Yeah, So if you want to get out of jury duty, 0:20:23.556 --> 0:20:25.156 what you should say is, I've already made up my. 0:20:25.116 --> 0:20:28.916 Mind pretty much. That's the silver bullet. That's the magic 0:20:28.956 --> 0:20:32.836 bullet right there. Yeah, I've already made up my mind 0:20:32.836 --> 0:20:34.996 and nothing I hear in court is going to change me. 0:20:35.116 --> 0:20:39.396 But judges are not pushovers on this. The judges are 0:20:39.476 --> 0:20:45.596 pretty adept at winnowing out people who are trying to 0:20:45.636 --> 0:20:49.516 get off jury duty and people who are really troubled 0:20:49.596 --> 0:20:53.276 by something that has happened in their own experience or 0:20:53.316 --> 0:20:56.076 that has already made them form an opinion. 0:20:56.356 --> 0:20:59.436 Do you think in this case, if you're on the 0:20:59.476 --> 0:21:03.276 defense or on the prosecution, who do you think would 0:21:03.276 --> 0:21:06.316 be more concerned about the jurors coming in Having read 0:21:06.316 --> 0:21:08.516 a lot about Sam and who would want those types 0:21:08.556 --> 0:21:09.076 of jurors. 0:21:10.236 --> 0:21:15.156 I think Sam bangman Fried's side will probably be more 0:21:17.196 --> 0:21:19.836 interested in people who start out neutral and not having 0:21:20.156 --> 0:21:24.156 not knowing very much. Yeah, And the government may be 0:21:25.996 --> 0:21:30.676 they may not be as interested in finding people who 0:21:30.716 --> 0:21:34.876 are ignorant of everything, but they may have benefited from 0:21:34.876 --> 0:21:36.676 some of the preacher out publicity for sure. 0:21:39.036 --> 0:21:47.836 Stick around judging. Sam will be right back, welcome back. 0:21:48.516 --> 0:21:51.036 Are there any proposed, why, dear, questions that you found 0:21:51.116 --> 0:21:52.236 interesting that stood out to you. 0:21:53.396 --> 0:21:57.716 There is one question on the proposed by Sam Bangman 0:21:57.756 --> 0:22:00.996 Fried's side to ask about ADHD, but that's just the 0:22:01.036 --> 0:22:04.316 tip of the iceberg. They're going to want people who 0:22:04.436 --> 0:22:08.356 have familiarity with ADHD and may forgive him some things 0:22:08.476 --> 0:22:13.756 because of it. There is on I believe it's I 0:22:13.836 --> 0:22:16.076 believe it was on Sam Bankmin Freed side, the question 0:22:16.156 --> 0:22:21.516 about effective altruism, which I just find is an interesting 0:22:21.836 --> 0:22:26.876 area overall because people probably have never heard of it 0:22:26.956 --> 0:22:30.836 before until this trial, if they've heard of it at all. 0:22:31.396 --> 0:22:35.036 On the other hand, they've heard of billionaires giving away money. 0:22:36.476 --> 0:22:43.036 There are many other wealthy individuals who are prominent donors 0:22:43.156 --> 0:22:48.636 to social causes. But this political focus of Sam Bakmin 0:22:48.716 --> 0:22:54.756 Freed's giving under this philosophical umbrella of effective altruism is 0:22:54.916 --> 0:22:58.116 interesting to try to get at in VA, Dear. 0:22:59.396 --> 0:23:01.236 Yeah, hold on, let me see if I can find 0:23:01.556 --> 0:23:05.916 If I can find the questions here, I have got it. 0:23:05.916 --> 0:23:08.156 It's three of them. Do you have any negative opinion 0:23:08.156 --> 0:23:11.116 about amassing wealth to support causes to improve the world 0:23:11.236 --> 0:23:13.276 or help others? If so, what is your opinion and 0:23:13.316 --> 0:23:15.556 why have you heard or are you familiar with the 0:23:15.556 --> 0:23:19.636 philosophical movement called effective altruism or EA? And the last 0:23:19.636 --> 0:23:22.636 one is what you've been alluding to all along. Is 0:23:22.636 --> 0:23:25.076 there anything you have read, seen, or heard about effective 0:23:25.076 --> 0:23:27.196 altruism that would make it hard for you to be 0:23:27.236 --> 0:23:29.156 a fair and impartial juror in this case? 0:23:29.756 --> 0:23:33.316 So those questions are stand ins and what the judge, 0:23:33.436 --> 0:23:37.796 How far the judge opens the lid on that is 0:23:38.036 --> 0:23:43.356 anyone's guess, But quite honestly, it borders right, it walks 0:23:43.516 --> 0:23:49.276 right up to political political sentiments because so much of 0:23:49.316 --> 0:23:55.436 sam bankman Fried's giving was political in nature. And I 0:23:55.516 --> 0:23:59.316 think that there is a lot of political undertone here 0:23:59.356 --> 0:24:03.676 that won't be explored in court. And this question is 0:24:03.756 --> 0:24:06.356 the only way they're really trying to get at. 0:24:06.236 --> 0:24:10.756 It, because they can't say, like, are you a Republican? 0:24:10.996 --> 0:24:13.516 Can's not allowed? They're not going to be able to 0:24:13.556 --> 0:24:17.636 find that out. Now had there been prior jury research 0:24:17.716 --> 0:24:21.156 by either side with focus groups and they were able 0:24:21.236 --> 0:24:26.516 to develop of long Sam bankmin Fried's own inclinations, a 0:24:26.596 --> 0:24:33.436 statistical predictor of what Republicans versus Democrats might think about 0:24:33.476 --> 0:24:36.436 his case. You know, that would be useful. But how 0:24:36.436 --> 0:24:39.636 are you going to find the Republicans and the Democrats 0:24:39.796 --> 0:24:42.596 in this jury pool? It's very difficult. 0:24:42.756 --> 0:24:45.556 Oh and they also ask what newspapers and magazines and 0:24:45.596 --> 0:24:47.916 stuff do you read? So that's kind of a giveaway. 0:24:48.276 --> 0:24:52.796 So there's a triangulation happening looking for clues breadcrumbs in 0:24:52.916 --> 0:24:56.836 other areas that give insight into what their political leanings 0:24:56.916 --> 0:25:01.236 might be. If you watch certain television, if you watch FOXTV, 0:25:01.396 --> 0:25:03.676 if you watch CNN. I mean there are things that 0:25:03.756 --> 0:25:07.396 will be clues in that direction for sure. Now here's 0:25:07.436 --> 0:25:10.676 a very good question often asked jurors. Is there something 0:25:10.716 --> 0:25:13.996 I should know about you that hasn't come up yet 0:25:14.036 --> 0:25:18.116