1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Hello, It's Richard mcclinsmith here with a couple of announcements. 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: After the amazing success of last year's Crimewave at Sea, 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: I'm excited to announce that we'll be setting Saiale again 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: next year February eighth to the twelfth of twenty twenty seven. 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,239 Speaker 1: I can't tell you enough how much I enjoyed this 6 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,959 Speaker 1: last year, and I'll be participating fully next year with 7 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: the show. So he fancies some spooky true crime on 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: a cruise round the Bahamas, This one's for you. Go 9 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: to Crimewave at seed dot com for more information. Tickets 10 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: will go on sale on Friday, February thirteenth, so listen 11 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: out for more announcements there. Further to that, I'm also 12 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: hugely excited to say I'll be attending crime Con US 13 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: and UK this year. So for the US we're going 14 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: to be in Las Vegas twenty eight to the thirty 15 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: first of May. Go to Crimecon dot com to buy 16 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: ticket and use voucher code unexplained for ten percent off. 17 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: And in the UK we'll be in Birmingham on April 18 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: the twenty fifth and London on the third and fourth 19 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: of October. These are all really special events that do 20 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: a lot to put survivors of crime front and center, 21 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: and I'm really honored to be taking part for crime 22 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: Con UK. Go to Crimecon dot com UK to buy 23 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: tickets and again use voucher code Unexplained for ten percent off. 24 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: You can also find all the links on my website 25 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: at Unexplained podcast dot com. Forward Slash events, The small 26 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: room was filled with a shocked silence. The audience were 27 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: gathered in the back room of an inn for the 28 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty five annual General Meeting of the Cairn Gorm 29 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: Club in the Scottish Highlands to listen to tales of 30 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: new hikes and climbs in the Cairn Gorm Mountains. But 31 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: they were not expecting to hear a story like this. 32 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: The speaker was Professor John Norman Collie, an experienced mountaineer 33 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: and man of science. Everyone listened intently, some open mouthed, 34 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: as Colligue spoke of his memories from a fateful day 35 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: decades earlier. While hiking on Ben mcdowey, a thick mist 36 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: had suddenly enveloped Collie in it. He experienced something so 37 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: terrifying that he hadn't spoken a word about it for 38 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: thirty five years Collie described how, after reaching the large 39 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: stone cairn that marked the mountain's summit, he was cautiously 40 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: navigating his way back down the path when the mist ascended, 41 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: Swirling thickly by turns, it revealed, then swallowed up the 42 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: dark gray, almost monsterlike shapes of rocky outcrops. With no 43 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: visual cues to guide him other than the thin line 44 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: of rocky path beneath his feet and its compass bearing, 45 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: Collie proceeded slowly. Taking a wrong turn could send him 46 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: towards one of the precipitous cliffs that flanked the peak. 47 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: The crunching of his boots on the trail was the 48 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: only sound to be heard. Then, Collie said, he began 49 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: to think he could hear something besides his own booted feet. 50 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: For every few steps he took, he thought that he 51 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: heard another set of feet making that crunching sound behind him, 52 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: almost like an eerie echo, except that someone or something 53 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: was taking only one giant stride for every three or 54 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: four of his own. Summoning the most rational part of 55 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: his scientist's mind, Collie told himself it was nonsense, he'd 56 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: just imagined it. But to be sure, he then stopped 57 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: and listened. Then he heard the sound once again, then again. 58 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: The timing suggested a very large stride, which paused as 59 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: if waiting for Collie's next move. Trying to pull himself together, 60 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: Professor Colly resumed walking and once more came that eerie crunch, crunch, crunch, 61 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: coming from behind him. This time all reasoning left the 62 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: normally rational Collie seized with terror. As he described it 63 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: to his audience, he started to run, staggering and stumbling 64 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: over the rocky ground as fast as he could for 65 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: almost five miles. He continued on, bumping and ricocheting between 66 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: the boulders that flanked the trail until he finally reached 67 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: the comparative safety of the rothy Murker's forest below. Concluding 68 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: his story, Professor Colly told his stunned audience to make 69 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: of it what they would. All he could say was 70 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: that there was something very strange about the top of 71 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: Ben mcdowey, something that had so frightened him that he 72 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: would never go back there again. You're listening to Unexplained 73 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: and I'm Richard McLean Smith today. If you go hiking 74 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: in the Scottish Highlands, you're unlikely to have the mountain 75 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: paths and peaks to yourself, even in the dead of winter. 76 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: Walking the mountains, along with winter sports like ice climbing 77 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: and skiing, are popular pastimes for locals and tourists alike, 78 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: but it wasn't always this way. In the late eighteen hundreds, 79 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: walking Scotland's mountains for fun was mostly a pastime for 80 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: a small group of wealthy and educated Victorian gentlemen, men 81 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: like Sir Hugh Munroe, who combined his delight in cataloging nature, 82 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: including his collections of butterflies and fossils, with his new 83 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 1: found hobby of ascending Scottish peaks. He drew up a 84 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: list of all two hundred and eighty two Scottish mountains 85 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: with an elevation of three thousand feet or more, first 86 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: published as Munro's Tables in the Journal of the Scottish 87 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: Mountaineering Club in eighteen ninety one. The list gave rise 88 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: to a new sport reaching the top of all of them, 89 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: known as Monroe bagging. Sadly, Sir Hugh never quite managed 90 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: to summit all two hundred and two himself, dying during 91 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: a flu epidemic at the end of World War One 92 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: with only three peaks left unclimbed. John Norman Collie was 93 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: born in eighteen fifty nine near the city of Manchester 94 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: in the north of England, but he had strong Scottish roots. 95 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: His father was from Aberdeenshire in northeast Scotland, so the 96 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,679 Speaker 1: family moved back there when Collie was still a boy. 97 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: Like Monroe, Collie fell in love with the outdoors and 98 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: Scotland's wild, mountainous country. He would go on to become 99 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: a professor of medicine, conducting pioneering work on the use 100 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: of X ray photography, but he always found time for 101 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: hiking expeditions into the Scottish mountains, especially the Cullins of Sky, 102 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: where he helped establish new routes along with local mountain 103 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: guide John Mackenzie. In eighteen ninety five, he was part 104 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: of the first ever attempt on Nanga Parbat, a twenty 105 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: four thousand foot high peak in the Himalayas. Collie was 106 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: already and experienced and respect figure in Scottish mountaineering when 107 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: he went walking in the Cairngaum Mountains in eighteen ninety. 108 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: Back then, such ventures were much more of an expedition 109 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,119 Speaker 1: than the comparatively easy day trips of today. At the time, 110 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: the Cairn Gorms were relatively remote and in some places 111 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: still relatively unexplored. Rail and good road links had not 112 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: yet been built. You could often be out among the 113 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: rocks and heather all day and not see another human soul. 114 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: The cair Gorms consists of a high plateau reaching almost 115 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: four thousand feet above sea level, pierced here and there 116 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: by domed summits the eroded stumps of once much grander mountains. 117 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: The highest of these is Ben mcdowey, at four thousand, 118 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: two hundred and ninety five feet above sea level. It 119 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: is the second highest peak in Britain, behind Ben Nevis, 120 00:07:54,760 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: on Scotland's northwest coast. The landscape that surrounds Ben mcdowey's 121 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: summit is desolate and bolder strewn scattered here and there 122 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: are free standing rocky outcrops. The Arctic alpine vegetation is sparse. 123 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: It's a place where, apart from the howl of the 124 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: wind and patter of rain on the rocks, the occasional 125 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 1: calls of birds like ptarmigan, snow buntings and red grouse 126 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: are the only sounds. The weather can change rapidly one 127 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 1: moment benign, the next harsh. It's a landscape in which 128 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: clouds descend or mists rise. The visibility can fall to 129 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,479 Speaker 1: just a few feet, making it easy to become disorientated 130 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: and lost. Had the tale that Collie told the ken 131 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: Gorm Club that evening in nineteen twenty five been told 132 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: by another man, it might not have been believed. But 133 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: with his status as an experienced mountaineer and rational man 134 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: of science, the story made a great impression on those 135 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: present that day and those who heard of it later. 136 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: This was not a man to imagine phantoms or likely 137 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: to panic on a summit. In time, the sinister being 138 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: was given a name m for Leah Moore in Scott's 139 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: Gallic in English, the Big Gray Man of Ben mcdowey, 140 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: or simply the gray Man, and so for over a 141 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: century something described as a presence or as a creature 142 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: has been said to haunt the summit and surrounding passes 143 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: of Ben mcdowey. The Big Gray Man has joined a 144 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: list of creatures, some of which have existed for centuries 145 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: in the legends and folk talk of mountain peoples around 146 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: the world, like the Yetti from the Himalayas, Bigfoot from 147 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: North of America and the y Ren or wild Man 148 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: of China. Welsh mythology also has its own version of 149 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: the being, called Brennan the Leward in English, the Gray King, 150 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: described as a silent, semi corporeal figure who hides in 151 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: the mountain mists, preying on unsuspecting travelers, especially children. When 152 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: Colly's account was reported in the local press, the professor 153 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: soon discovered, to his immense surprise, that he wasn't the 154 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: only one who'd been terrified on those very same slopes. 155 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: One letter after another arrived through his door, detailing accounts 156 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: from climate who had previously been too afraid or too 157 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: ashamed to share their experiences. Just like Collie, several confessed 158 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: as similar feelings of terror caused by a being that 159 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: they had sensed was with them on the mountain. Hugh 160 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: Welsh was hiking to the summit with his brother in 161 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: nineteen oh four, where throughout the day and night they 162 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: heard footsteps that sounded to them as if someone was 163 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: walking nearby through soaking wet gravel. Both men were utterly 164 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: convinced that something was stalking them. Only in a few 165 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: of the cases reported to John Colly did people report 166 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: actually seeing something. Those who did claim to glimpse a large, 167 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: dark shape looming towards them. Others described a very thin 168 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: being over ten feet tall, with long arms and broad shoulders, 169 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: either with dark skin and hair, or else an olive 170 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: complexion or covered with short brown hair. Occasionally some said 171 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: they'd seen an unusual looking footprint, but more often the 172 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: apparent creature seemed to stay hidden in the mist. The 173 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: reports dried up for a time until after the onset 174 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: of the Second World War, several more vivid reports of 175 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: the specter began to surface. From nineteen thirty nine to 176 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,599 Speaker 1: nineteen forty five. Peter Densham was the leader of the 177 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: Cairngorms Royal Air Force Rescue Team. One day towards the 178 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: end of his service, Densham was participating in a rescue 179 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: exercise on Ben mcdowey. As he neared the summit, he 180 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: heard what he described as strange noises on the mountain side, 181 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: although at first he felt sure that they were merely 182 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: caused by stone shifting. Then, around dusk, as the light 183 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: began to fade, a dense mist closed in on his location. Suddenly, 184 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: Densham reported feeling a sensation of pressure increasing around its neck, 185 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: followed by another crunch in the gravel to his left. 186 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: Densham couldn't articulate what was happening in that moment. All 187 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: he knew was that he had to leave immediately. Overcome 188 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: by terror, he began running down the mountain, only to 189 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: find that he was heading straight towards a precipitous ravine. 190 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: As he later told his son, it was as if 191 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: someone was deliberately pushing him in that direction. It was 192 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: with no little effort that he found he had to 193 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: force himself to correct course before continuing his way down 194 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: the mountain safely. Some weeks later, Densham experienced an even 195 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: eeria encounter. This time he was accompanied by a climbing partner, 196 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: Richard Frere. As the two men neared the mountain summit 197 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: once again, the landscape became shrouded in a dense fog. 198 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: The fog became so thick that the two men quickly 199 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: lost sight of each other. As Densham steadily continued on 200 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: his way, he heard the faint sound of Frere's voice 201 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: and another voice to talking to each other. Assuming his 202 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: friend had bumped into another climber, Densham joined in the 203 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: discussion from a distance The conversation continued for a while 204 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: until the other voice dropped out, at which point Densham 205 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: asked Frere who he'd been talking to, but Frere was 206 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: confused the whole time. He thought he was just talking 207 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: to Densham. Three years later, and Richard Frere was back 208 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: on the mountain standing alone. At one point he heard 209 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: the eerie sound of what he took to be someone 210 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: singing a single, high pitched note. On hearing Peter Densham 211 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: and Richard Frere's stories, a mutual friend who wished to 212 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: remain anonymous, confessed that around that same time he had 213 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: been camping on Ben mcdowey one night when he suddenly 214 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: awoke with an inescapable feeling of dread. He opened his 215 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: tent and looked outside. There he saw a large figure 216 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: with dark hair, standing silhouetted in front of the moon. 217 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty eight, the naturalist and mountaineer Alexander Tunian 218 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: published an article in The Scots Magazine in which he 219 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: described a solo climbing trip in the Cairngorms from nineteen 220 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: forty three. One afternoon, he wrote, just as he reached 221 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: the summit of Ben mcdowey, a mist swelled up from 222 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: a famous pass below known as the Larry Grew. Tunian 223 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: pulled on some extra layers as the weather conditions rapidly 224 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: became dark and oppressive, and a fierce wind sprang up, 225 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: feathering and whistling among the boulders around him. Then he 226 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: heard a loud footstep pierce the mist, then another and another. 227 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: Straining his eyes toward where the sound came from, Tunian 228 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: claimed that a strange shape suddenly loomed up out of 229 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: the mist. As he attempted to make out what exactly 230 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: it was, the figure appeared to recede for a moment, 231 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: only to emerge from the mist yet again, and this 232 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: time to charge at the climber. Managing to keep his composure, 233 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: Tunian whipped out a revolver and fired three times at 234 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: the ghostly figure, but this failed to make it retreat. 235 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: At this point, like several men before him, his nerves 236 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: got the better of him and he turned and ran, 237 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: not stopping for breath until he reached the valley of 238 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: Glenderry below. Tunian commented in his article that he'd never 239 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: traveled that path so quickly before or since. He believed 240 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: that what he'd seen was the big gray man. During 241 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: the early nineteen twenties, former president of the Moray Mountaineering 242 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: Club Tom Crowley was descending from a peak to the 243 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: west of Ben mcdowey when a huge, gray, mist shrouded 244 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: figure with pointed ears, long legs, and fingerlike talons on 245 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: its feet came into view. There's no record of whether 246 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: Crowley turned and ran Meanwhile, in his book one hundred 247 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: Strangest Unexplained Mysterets, writer Matt Lammy describes the experience of 248 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: three men who claimed to have come face to face 249 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: with an eerie, dark, human shaped figure in a forest 250 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: in Aberdeenshire, on the eastern side of the Cairngorms. They 251 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: claimed to have seen a face looking at them from 252 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: between tree branches, which was, in their words, human but 253 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: not human. One of the men claimed to have thrown 254 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,959 Speaker 1: a stone at it, causing it to disappear into the trees. 255 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: A few weeks later, the same trio were driving in 256 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: the area when the men alleged that the same bipedal 257 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: creature suddenly appeared from out of the trees and pursued 258 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: their car, running it up to forty five miles per hour. 259 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: After some time, it eventually gave up and apparently stood 260 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: in the middle of the road, just watching as the 261 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: car and its frightened occupants sped away. Despite the various reports, 262 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: no photographs of the so called Big Gray Man have 263 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: ever been taken. Photographer John Rennie did take shots of 264 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: a series of footprints measuring nineteen inches long and fourteen 265 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: inches white, that he found in the Spey Valley below 266 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: the mountain, believing them to be those of the creature. 267 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: It was only later that he discovered they weren't footprints 268 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: at all, but caused by a natural process that occurs 269 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: when rainfall melts the snow. Some skeptics are of the 270 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: firm belief that there is no Big Gray Man, and 271 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: that he is in stead dead, a manifestation of a 272 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: well known mountain phenomenon. Born in seventeen seventy, James Hogg 273 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: was a Scottish poet, novelist and essayist. In seventeen ninety one, 274 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: the author was walking on Ben mcdowey when he encountered 275 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: what he described as a giant blackamore, an archaic term 276 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: for Muslims from North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula, at 277 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: least thirty feet high. Hogg wrote that it had all 278 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: the appearances of a giant, long limbed, gray silhouette of 279 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: a man, which seemed to stand against the backdrop of 280 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: the clouds behind it. At first, the author was struck 281 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: powerless with astonishment and terror, but his terror began to 282 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: subside when he realized that the figure was aping his gestures. 283 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: When Hogg raised his arm, the gray man raised his. 284 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: When he held its leg to one side, the apparition 285 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: did the same with the exact same timing, took off 286 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,959 Speaker 1: its hat at the same moment he did. With a 287 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: flash of relief and comprehension, Hogg realized that the gray 288 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: Man was just his own shadow. These days, this atmospheric 289 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: phenomenon is well known to hikers and mountaineers. It's called 290 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: a Brocken specter, named after the brock And Peak in 291 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: Germany's Hartz Mountains, where as on many Scottish peaks it's 292 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: a frequent occurrence. It's caused when a low angled sun's 293 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: rays filter through low cloud or fog to produce the 294 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: shadow of a person, which appears elongated, almost like something 295 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: coming out of the mist on which it's projected. The giant, 296 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: gray humanoid shape is often surrounded by a rainbow hued halo, 297 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: giving it a ghostly, almost angelic appearance. Non Believers in 298 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: the Big Gray Man have also pointed out to the 299 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: strange sounds that some climates have heard, that the wind 300 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: can make extraordinary sounds as it howls and whistles over 301 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: exposed rocks, outcrops, and boulders. One mountain on the eastern 302 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: side of the Grampians, called Loch Nagar is even named 303 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: the Lock of the Outcry, or in Gallic, Loch Nagara, 304 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: due to the frequent moaning and howling of the wind 305 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: among its rocks, while a past to the south is 306 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: called baloch and Scarnia, or rocks that make noises. And 307 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:38,479 Speaker 1: yet experienced mountaineers who've reported hearing the creature would almost 308 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: certainly be familiar with just such a thing. And if 309 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,959 Speaker 1: the Big Gray Man is merely an optical illusion, what 310 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: of the alleged encounters that have happened after sunset, not 311 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: to mention the inexplicable sounds of footsteps and the sudden 312 00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: sense of panic that is said to accompany them. Mountain panic, 313 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: more formally known as high place phenomenon, can affect people 314 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: in different ways. Physiologically, is thought to be caused by 315 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: the brain misinterpreting a survival safety signal to back up instead, 316 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: sometimes leading to a desire to jump from a high place, 317 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: which only intensifies the sudden onrush of anxiety. It can 318 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: be induced by a lack of oxygen, stress, and fatigue. 319 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: The symptoms, like the feeling of losing control of a situation, dizziness, 320 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: or shallowness of breath, can vary, but a universal symptom 321 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: is a sense of impending doom, which can strike when 322 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: you least expect it. Magazine editor Sarah Collins was alone 323 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: on a chairlift at almost four thousand feet above sea 324 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: level while on holiday in the Canadian Rockies when the 325 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: thought suddenly came into her head to jump. Surveying the 326 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: magnificent array of mountain peaks around her, Collins was gripped 327 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: by a sense of dread and the feeling she was 328 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: about to lose control of her body. A former sufferer 329 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: of obsessive compulsive disorder, she'd successfully developed techniques for suppressing 330 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:28,239 Speaker 1: recurring intrusive thoughts and had considered herself cured, but on 331 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: this occasion she was experiencing a combination of jet lack 332 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: and the sense of being in an unfamiliar environment. Now, 333 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 1: she became overwhelmed by a full blown panic attack. Collins 334 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: gripped tighter and tighter onto the metal bar in front 335 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: of her, the only thing between her and the abyss below. 336 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: For ten long minutes, she had the feeling that at 337 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: any moment she might give in to the impulse to 338 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: launch herself off the chair. Eventually, the calming voice of 339 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 1: mental health professional that she'd been treated by years ago 340 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: came back to her. Collins described the antidote as being 341 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: akin to allowing yourself to just float rather than thrash 342 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: the water when you think you're about to drown. Gradually, 343 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: she persuaded herself to relax her grip on the bar 344 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: and lie back in the chair. She survived the ride. 345 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: Could it be that mountaineers who have seen the Big 346 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: Gray Man have often been suffering from mountain panic, experiencing 347 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: symptoms recognized by psychologists as often brought on by a 348 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: combination of isolation and exhaustion. Even experienced and well trained 349 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: adventurers can succumb to hallucinations under the combined assault of fatigue, 350 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: low oxygen, the cold, and a desolate landscape. There are 351 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: many accounts of hill walkers and climbers experiencing the high 352 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: place phenomenon across the British Isles, in places as far 353 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,239 Speaker 1: afield as the Isle of Sky, the Grampian Highlands and 354 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: the mountains of England and Wales. Almost all accounts of 355 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: the Big Gray Man include a sense of being overtaken 356 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: by feelings of dread, sometimes so much that some on 357 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: Ben mcdowey have reported being drawn towards the precipitous drop 358 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: at a place called lurch Ats Crack, almost prepared to 359 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: throw themselves over the edge. So intense is the feeling. 360 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:42,239 Speaker 1: And then, of course there is infrasound. It has been 361 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: known for some time that infrasound can affect human physiology 362 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: and psychology. There have even been clinical experiments to test it. 363 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: In two thousand and four, at the School of Mechanical 364 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: Science and Engineering at Waalsong University in wu Han, China, 365 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 1: a study was carried out to honor to the changes 366 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: of blood pressure, heart rate, and the subjective feelings of 367 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: subjects exposed to infrasound. The study adopted two different infrasonic 368 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: treatments based around the sound wave frequency of two herts 369 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: and four herts. During the experiment, One group was exposed 370 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: to infrasound of two herts at a volume of one 371 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: hundred decibels for one hour, while a second group was 372 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: exposed to four herts at a volume of one hundred 373 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: and twenty decibels for one hour. Any noise with a 374 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: frequency over twenty hertz, the lower limit of human hearing 375 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: was minimized. To avoid any interference with the results. A 376 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: blood pressure meter and cardio tachometer were used to measure 377 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: any changes in the subjects blood pressure and heart rate. 378 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: It was found that exposure to both frequencies of infrasound 379 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: made the subjects feel headachey, fretful, and tired. When exposed 380 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: of four hurts over an hour, the blood pressure and 381 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: heart rate of most participants rose. In natural settings, infrasount 382 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: can be generated by the wind. You may remember in 383 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: season seven, episode twenty one, Wild is the Wind, we 384 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: told the story of the Reverend James Pike and his 385 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: wife Diane, who some suspect was driven mad by the 386 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: wind while on a research trip in the Judean Desert. 387 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: Pike died in mysterious circumstances on the expedition. Wind generated 388 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: infrasount has been implicated in causing feelings of uneasiness, anxiety, 389 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: and paranormal sightings for some time, and mountains are frequently 390 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: windy places. In nineteen ninety eight, in the Journal of 391 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: the Society for Psychical Research, researcher Vic Tandy published a 392 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: study showing how a nineteen hertz standing airwave just below 393 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: the human ability to hear it may, under certain conditions 394 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: create sensory for no nomina in humans suggestive of a ghost. 395 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: In the paper titled the Ghost in the Machine, Tandy 396 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: advised researchers of paranoral experiences to try and rule out 397 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 1: this potential natural explanation for their investigations. All that being said, 398 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: As recently as twenty twenty two, Scottish newspaper The Daily 399 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: Record ran a story about a guest staying at mar 400 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: Lodge in the cair Grants who'd left a post on 401 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: a wildlife sighting board at a ranger's hut. Most posts 402 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: on the board reported things like the sighting of adders 403 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: or eagles, or bemoaned the appearance of biting midgie's, But 404 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: on the twenty seventh of September one spoot guest wrote 405 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: something a little different. According to them, they had spotted 406 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: a creepy gray silhouette standing at the summit of Ben mcdowey. 407 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: Whether it was in fact a Brocken specter, just the 408 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: mind playing tricks on them, or indeed a real living 409 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: thing lurking in the mist, just like the mystery of 410 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: m for Leah Moore, the big gray Man of Ben 411 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: mcdowey that remains to this day unexplained. This episode was 412 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: written by Diane Hope and produced by Richard McClain Smith. 413 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: Diane is an audio producer and sound recordist in her 414 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: own right. You can find out more about her work 415 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: at Dianehope dot com and on Instagram at in the 416 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: sound Field. Thank you as ever for listening Unexplained as 417 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,479 Speaker 1: an Avy Club production podcast created by Richard McClain smith. 418 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: All other elements of the podcast, including the music, are 419 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: also produced by me Richard McLain Smith. Unexplained. The book 420 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: and audiobook is now available to buy worldwide. You can 421 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: purchase from Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Waterstones and other bookstores. 422 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: Please subscribe to and rate the show wherever you get 423 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: your podcasts, and feel free to get in touch with 424 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: any thoughts or ideas regarding the stories you've heard on 425 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: the show. Perhaps you have an explanation or a story 426 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: of your own you'd like to share. You can find 427 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: out more at Unexplained podcast dot com and reach us 428 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: online through X and Blue Sky at Unexplained Pod and 429 00:30:25,240 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: Facebook at Facebook dot com, Forward Slash Unexplained Podcast