1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The dart web is not safe, 2 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: but our ah is what is r ah? Well? Of course, 3 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: rent a Hitman? Okay, drink this in the dart web 4 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: is not safe, but rent a Hitman is. Rent a 5 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: Hitman dot Com. Our website is safe, secure, available to 6 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: you right here on the world wide Web rent a Hitman. 7 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: So here is my question. How does rent a Hitman 8 00:00:54,200 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: dot Com end up embroiled in saving a man's life 9 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: from a hit I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. 10 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation 11 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: and series x M one eleven with me and all 12 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of what we know right now. 13 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: First of all, high profile lawyer joining me out of 14 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: La Troy Slayton with Slayton Lawyers. Doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensics 15 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: psychologist and author of Criminal Behavior. You can find her 16 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: at Panthemedigation dot com. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and 17 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Star of 18 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: a brand new hit series on iHeart Bodybags with Joe 19 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. Special guests joining me from Fox to News 20 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: at Detroit wb JK. Jessica Dupnac is joining us, but 21 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen first to our 22 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: friends at Fox to Detroit our cup one listen. The 23 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: site is rent a Hitman dot Com. I'm luring im 24 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: Monroe County woman to see about having her ex husband killed. 25 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: The inquiry real enough, gaining the attention to Michigan State Polife. 26 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: The whole scenario more common than you'd think, The creator 27 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: of the website explains. These people are speaking how to 28 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: hire a hit man on the internet. One of them 29 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: from Monroe County, Wendy Ween, charged for trying to hire 30 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: someone to kill her ex husband. Filling out a lengthy 31 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: questionnaire on the fictitious website, she was asked those two questions, 32 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: do you still require our services? And would you like 33 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: me to put you in contact with the field operatives. 34 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: She answered yes. That was enough for Bob Inness, the 35 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: creator of rent a Hitman dot Com, to report her 36 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: to Michigan State Police. Well, all I can say is 37 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: thank Heaven for a hitman dot com. Now listen to this. 38 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: The website rent a Hitman dot Com quote got a 39 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: problem that needs resolving. With over seventeen thousand, nine eighty 40 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: five US based field operatives, we can find a solution 41 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: that's right for you, the website promises, along with a 42 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: badge bragging about the site's HIPPA compliance. Now correct me 43 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong choice light in which you do love 44 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:25,839 Speaker 1: to do hippa compliance and normal phraseology means you keep 45 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: medical secrets secret. That's why your doctor can't give your 46 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: name to you know, the local newsletter, because everything you 47 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: tell a doctor or her staff is secret. That's what 48 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: hippa is, right, that's right. It's the Health Information Privacy 49 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: and Portability Act. So okay, your personals to protect all 50 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: of your health information so that way nobody but your 51 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: doctor can get that information. What does that have to 52 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: do with hiring a hit man? So long story short, 53 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: they offer a hit simple solution and to you, Jessica 54 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: doop nang joining me from Fox to News w b JK, 55 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: we can find a solution that's right for you. Was 56 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: over about eighteen thousand operatives? Do you mean killers in 57 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 1: the US? Is that what they're touting? And they even 58 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: have a why don't you tell me, Jackie? They have 59 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: a bonus or a discount for seniors. Yeah, it's very 60 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: senior disco. Okay, tell me everything with me is Jessica 61 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 1: Doop Nat with Fox two News w b JK. So, 62 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: tell me, first of all, what is rent a Hitman 63 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: dot Com? Oh, this is really a story within his story. 64 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,559 Speaker 1: A guany Bobenis. He's a fifty four year old Northern 65 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: California guy. Back in two thousand and five, he was 66 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,239 Speaker 1: dipping his toe into sort of the web business. Started 67 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: rent to Hitman dot com as a spoof. It was 68 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: more about web hits than actual hitman in the sense 69 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: that we think of them. So he starts this website 70 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: that the business venture he was after goes belly up. 71 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: He lets the site lie. A couple of years later, 72 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: he checks the inbox. He's got three hundred requests for 73 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: services of rent a Hitman, people from all over the 74 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: world looking to have someone killed. He thinks maybe it's 75 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: a joke. People are messing with him. Lets it lie 76 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: for another couple of years. Then he gets an email 77 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: from a woman named Helen. She's out of Canada, wants 78 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: three people killed, and she won't leave Bob Innis and 79 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: the rent a Hitman site alone. Then he finally starts 80 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: to take it seriously. Corresponds with this woman Helen, who 81 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: wants three people killed, finally realizes she means business. She 82 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: actually wants to hire him. Then he reports it to police. 83 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: Long story short, Helen ends up spending I think four 84 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: months in prison for soliciting murders. Forward to right now. 85 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: You know what. I know it's far fetched to a 86 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: lot of people, but believe it or not, hitman are 87 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: hired online. I want you to take a listen to 88 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: sound about Tina Jones and her dark web murder for 89 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: higher plot. These are our friends at ABC seven. This 90 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: is John Garcia at Chicago ar Cut sixteen. Jones was 91 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: having an affair with the intended victim's husband, who she 92 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: worked with. She used the relative anonymity of the dark 93 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: web to hire a company called Sicilian Hitman International to 94 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: kill his wife, all from her quiet, suburban displays apartment. 95 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: But a network news organization investigating the dark web stumbled 96 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: down to the plot and reported it to Woodridge Police. 97 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: Without their bringing this evidence to law enforcement's attention, who 98 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: knows how this case would have ended up. She admitted 99 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: that she had access to Hitman website. Investigators found evidence 100 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: of Bitcoin payments and communication between Jones and the Hitman 101 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: website on her laptop on her lap time. I mean, 102 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: Joska Morgan, you're the professor of forensics. Does nobody understand 103 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: that you can never really clean off your laptop, no 104 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: matter how many times you try to delete items, No, 105 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: you can't. Particularly if you get the law enforcement involved 106 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: in a case like this, they'll be particularly interested and 107 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: they will go to great links to recover anything that 108 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: might be there. They'll even send it off to the FEDS, Nancy, 109 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: and they have all kinds of interesting tools whereas they 110 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: can recover all of this data that you might think 111 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: that you've gotten rid of, but of course you haven't. Yeah, 112 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: the only way you can really get rid of it 113 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: is just take out in the driveway and run over 114 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: it with your car. But even then, you've got to 115 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: worry about what's stored in the cloud. You know, you 116 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: may run over it, you may take it apart bit 117 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: by bit your computer, but what you have stored in 118 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: the cloud still exists. And what's amazing to me, Troy Slayton. 119 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: People may not understand the workings of the Internet or 120 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: the cloud or their computer, but doesn't everybody know. If 121 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: you don't want it to be on page six tomorrow morning, 122 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: then you don't put it in writing. You know, I 123 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: always told clients that never text anything, never say anything 124 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: on the phone, never email anything that you wouldn't mind 125 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: being read aloud at your trial. But what really straggling 126 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: me about this case, Nancy, is that I'm looking at 127 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: the defense. There may very well be a viable defense 128 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: here of entrapment. Oh good grief, you know what, Troy, 129 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: Just hold onto the defense. You're putting the cart before 130 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: the horse. I haven't even gotten that far. Right now, 131 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: I'm talking about these idgets to go online and send 132 00:08:43,480 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: emails about hiring a hitman. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace 133 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: doctor Sherry Schwartz. You know, we always see movies about 134 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: these highly intelligent criminals that manage to outsmart police. And yes, 135 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: they're out there, but for the most part, I really 136 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: don't think they're that's smart. Doctor Sherry Schwartz is joining us. 137 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: She's a forensic psychologist the specializes and the link between 138 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: criminal behavior and psychology. I mean, they that's smart, doctor Sherry. Well, 139 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: that's my experience, Nancy. They're average intelligence for the most part, 140 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: and sometimes below. And this one, I mean, we don't 141 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: often get a lot of cases we can laugh about, right, 142 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: this is one we kind of can because no one 143 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: was actually harmed. But it is the real head scratcher 144 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: that in this day and age and everything that's out 145 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: there about how you know we're being watched and monitored, 146 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: and all of this information about us is so readily available, 147 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: even after we think it's long gone. Why you would 148 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: put your details into a website to have someone murdered, 149 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: It is just beyond me. I mean, this is sort 150 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: of an episode for I hate the state. I hate 151 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 1: to be mean and sound mean, but for stupid criminals. Right. Wow, 152 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: I had no idea you were so main, doctor Sherry. 153 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the depth of your evil is before now untold. 154 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: We're talking about a woman trying to kill somebody. She's 155 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: the bad guy, doctor Sherry Schwartz, not you, Oh you 156 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: know you really are? You take the cake? You called 157 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: a criminal? What did you call him? Dumb? Wow? Okay, 158 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: we're talking about a woman trying to have her husband murdered. Now, 159 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: this is the one that I love to play, and 160 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,719 Speaker 1: you're gonna know who I'm talking about. Dahlia Dippolito, the 161 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: so called black widow. Now, her defense lawyers keep telling 162 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: me over never that I'm wrong when I say she 163 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: tried to kill him once by wasn't in his Starbucks. Now. 164 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: The other day, I forgot to tell you this, Jackie. 165 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: My daughter Lucy, who's just turned fourteen. This was actually 166 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: on her birthday party, had five of her she and 167 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: four of her little friends in the backseat and they 168 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: all said they wanted to go to Starbucks. Well, Lucy 169 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: Lynch has never had a coffee, real coffee, and she went, Okay, 170 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: let's go Sirebucks. So I'm driving through, ready to pay 171 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: the awful amount they're going to charge me, and one 172 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: little girl gets five pumps of caramel and five pumps 173 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: of something else. I mean, they're all just big glasses 174 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: of whipped cream essentially. And I was thinking about it 175 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: and I saw my daughter in the rear view window. 176 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: I didn't turn around to look at her, and she 177 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: she actually got regular coffee. She took and she mashed 178 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: her hold it in and I spit it out. But 179 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: later when I cleaned the car out, no, they did 180 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: not help me. I found her completely full coffee in 181 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: the beverage container. See, because she was trying so hard 182 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: to blend in with all these other girls that are 183 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: having their frappuccinos. And there whatever they were having. My 184 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: point is that's a perfect place to hide poison. And 185 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: one of those frothy, gooey drinks at Starbucks, you'd never 186 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: taste a thing. Well, Dahlia's attempt, the husband didn't drink it. 187 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: H So that didn't work. So I want you to 188 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: hear what Dahlia Dippolito says to a hitman. Take a 189 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: listen to our cut for a This is from ABC 190 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: twenty twenty. Police say Dahlia thinks she is meeting an 191 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: actual hitman and his cherry red convertible. Ya. He makes 192 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: his plan crystal clear. Okay, I apprivalery gone wrong that 193 00:12:54,480 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: leaves Mike death. The undercoveragetita if he really wants to 194 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 1: nail Dalia, make sure he's got it on tape and 195 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: on camera that she is really going to pay him 196 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: to kill her husband. And he says, are you sure, Dalia? 197 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: Like positive? There it is. The press would have a 198 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: field day with this line. Listen again, she's five thousand 199 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: percent short positive Like well, no, she wasn't just one 200 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: hundred percent sure. She was five thousand percent sure that 201 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 1: she wanted her husband killed. Troy Slayton veteran trial lawyer 202 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: or a high profile lawyer out of LA criminal defense attorney, 203 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: try Slayton. You know how much I love it what 204 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: she says. I'm five thousand percent sure I want him dead. 205 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,599 Speaker 1: I love that line. Many times I've played that, but 206 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: not as many times as I've played the staying on 207 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: her when the car come out. Okay, wait, let's let's 208 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: just play that. Okay, wait for it, wait for it. 209 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: Do we hear her crying in this one? Oh? I'm 210 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: so happy. Take a listen to our cut b as 211 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: in brother one, our cut eight. I'm sorry, j Ramsey, 212 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: I'm not going to call you. Thank you for coming. 213 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to call you. Listen. We had to report 214 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: of a disturbance at your house and there were shots 215 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: fired as your husband, Michael, Okay, I'm sorry to tell 216 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: you man, he's been killed. He's been killed. Try to 217 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: find up right now. We need to we need to 218 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: get I can't look, man. We have to do our job. 219 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: You want to find a stiller. We need you to 220 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: calm up. I need you to go with these Okay. 221 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: Do you have enemies? Is there anyone who okay, who 222 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: want to hurt him? When, as she said, they saw 223 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: a blackmail running from you. I can't let you stay then, madam, 224 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: I cannot do this right now. I can't go with 225 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: these detectives. If you want to help your husband, okay, 226 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: if you want to help your husband, you need to 227 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: go through station with these young and tell us everything 228 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: you know about who he knows who the boy we've 229 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: reready taken carry dogs that I'm look control for. Right now, 230 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: everything's under control. I was just like, where do you 231 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: think it in like a fine wine. Of course he's 232 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: not dead. Husband's not dead. That's why I'm so happy 233 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: right now. Any day I don't have a dead body, 234 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: it's a good day, right Joe Scott death investigator. So 235 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: long story short, she sets when the poisoned Chai tee 236 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: from Starbucks fails. Then she hires a hit man. And 237 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: you heard herself, five thousand percent sure I want him dead. 238 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: I'm surprised you didn't spell it out, d E A 239 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: d dead. Well, she hires a hit man. The hit 240 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: goes down while she's working out. She's a fitness enthusiast 241 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: and stripper, former stripper and um so the cops come 242 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: tell he's dead. He wasn't dead. It was a sting operation. 243 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: I wish you could see that because when she's whining 244 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: and screaming, she's bending over, bending over, double down, in pain, 245 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: Troice Layton in pain. That was some pretty good acting. 246 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: Because she thought she was on a reality show. You 247 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: know that, Nancy, she thought she was filming a reality show. 248 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: That was her defense. Wait a minute, were you her lawyer? 249 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: I was not? You sure? Sound like you are? What 250 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: do you mean she thought it was a reality show. 251 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: She one of the things that she said was that 252 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: she thought that this was all part of a reality show. 253 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: I think I'm going to have to go to the 254 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: shrink on this one. To you, doctor A. Sherry Schwartz, 255 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: I guess when you have nothing left you can say, 256 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: you can say it was all for a reality show. Well, 257 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: I mean, Nancy, as you know, a lot of what 258 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: I do that I'm reading to do is mitigation. And 259 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sitting over here trying not to control, 260 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: you know, trying not to laugh out loud. That's ridiculous. 261 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: You thought it was for a reality show. Well wait, 262 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: you either thought your husband was actually killed or you 263 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: thought you were acting for a reality show. Right, It 264 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: can't be both, right, So it makes no sense. And 265 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: again you know to tie it back to the psychology 266 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: of this perpetrator. I mean, this is a dangerous individual. 267 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: As you pointed out about the rent A hitman lady, 268 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: I mean, these are people who want people dead and 269 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: are willing to pay for that to happen. Time stories 270 00:17:54,840 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. There's another psychological issue you and I 271 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: want to go to you on this. Just Scott Morgan, 272 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: death investigator, think about it. You and I have discussed 273 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: many times the case of Lynn Turner, the woman ultimately 274 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: convicted of murdering her boyfriend and her husband a couple 275 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: of maybe two years apart. They both seemingly died of 276 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: heart failure or some gastro intestinal problem. She was really 277 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: giving them anti freeze, and I believe it was jello 278 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: shots or in jello in jello, and they couldn't taste 279 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: it because anti freeze is sweet. That's why you have 280 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: to make sure your dog doesn't sneak up to the 281 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: car and try to drink it if it leaks sweet. 282 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: Aside from anti freeze, the frame of mind of someone. 283 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: They can so coldly, so calculatedly plan the murder of 284 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: another human, much less someone you have children with. Someone 285 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: that you have loved in the past, even if you 286 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: don't love them anymore, to stand by and see them 287 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: poisoned in their Chai latte or hire a hitman to 288 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: go shoot them dead in the head. That's a whole 289 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: another mindset, Joe Scott, and we've seen it a lot. Yeah, yeah. 290 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 1: And what's really fascinating about this, Nancy, is that they 291 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: don't think about it in the sense that if you're 292 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: seeking someone out, let's just say legitimately you are actually 293 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: seeking somebody out that would perform this service for you, 294 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: do you realize what kind of level of evil that 295 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: you're brushing up against. And this always happens, it seems 296 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: as though, with people that are very unsophisticated when it 297 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: comes through the world of crime. And I've got several 298 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: friends that are police officers over the years that did 299 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: undercover work on cases like this. And the interesting thing 300 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: about it, I know two of these cases where the 301 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: individuals that were eventually charged, they actually walked into biker 302 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: separate biker bars to solicit solicit help in achieving this. 303 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: And the thing about it is that many people that 304 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: you go to seek out in these kind of seedy 305 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: locations where you had this perception of danger. They don't 306 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: want to get in further trouble. So what do they do. 307 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: You reach out to somebody that you think is going 308 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: to be really imposing and evil, and they roll over. 309 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: They call their parole officer, or they call a local 310 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: constabulary and say, look, I got this lady that's telling 311 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: me she wants her husband dead. And the next thing 312 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: you know, you're calling the middle of a steam. Well. 313 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: Many people have said all good things must come to 314 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: an end, and is such the case with Dahlia Dippolito's 315 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: oscar performance. What goes up must come down? Take a 316 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: listen to win. Dahlia Dippolito finds out Rutt Row, her 317 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: husband is not dead. Listen. They bring in Officer Witty Jeane, 318 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: the supposed hitman from the car. It's over here. You 319 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: know this, guys, you've never seen him before. She just 320 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: stared at him. Um, she says she didn't know him, 321 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: and then call it a resurrection. Oh my god. Police 322 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: have another surprise for Delia to Polito. Here she sees 323 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: her husband and he's a love. The show Cops captures 324 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: this moment as well. Here my God, like, come here, 325 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: what you're alive. I love that moment, and I'm sure 326 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: a jury will to You're going to jail. You kept 327 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: saying I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. Was 328 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: that all you could think of to say? They were 329 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: accusing me of trying to have my husband Calvin? I 330 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: been it going down with the ship Dolia dippolto. Well, 331 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: you know, Troy Slayton, I can't believe you've led me 332 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: down the garden path and gotten totally off topic here. 333 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: We're talking not about Dahlia di Polito, but Wendy Wine. 334 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: He reportedly goes online to rent a hitman dot com 335 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: to have her husband killed. Take a listen to our 336 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: cut number four. This is Simon Chaquette w x y Z. 337 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: Detroit detective say an undercover operation in a Monroe County 338 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: parking lot revealed Wendy was serious, even willing to cover 339 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: extra costs to travel out of state where her ex 340 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 1: husband lives. We used a state troop proposing as a hitman, 341 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: and there was a conversation and she provided some funds 342 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: for travels and at that time arrest was made, arrested 343 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: for solicitation to commit murder. She was locked up at 344 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: the Monroe County Jail, where she remains charged today. She's 345 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: also accused of using a computer to commit a crime. 346 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: Police tell us. The owner of the site stated he's 347 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: helped to stop more than one hundred and thirty murders. 348 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: I must definitely think that life was saved, and doing 349 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: a news story on this, I'm pretty sure that when 350 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 1: this new story gets out there, some other life might 351 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: be are saved by this. The case against Wendy Wayne 352 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: is still open and Michigan State Police are asking anyone 353 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: who could have more info to call them right away. Now, 354 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: interesting you heard that she was arrested once she handed 355 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: over funds. The law is that talk is just that 356 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: that would be more along the lines of a conspiracy. 357 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: But what is needed is an overt act under the 358 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: law too, the conspiracy. Yeah, and that would be handing 359 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: over the money. Troy. That's right. They need to show 360 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: that there was an act in furtherance of the crime. 361 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: But I would argue here because you don't know how 362 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: many times Jack and I apploted to have you killed. 363 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: But you know I haven't written had that overt act yet, 364 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: thank goodness. But in this case, the owner of the website, 365 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: mister Ennis says that he has saved over one hundred 366 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: and thirty lives, that he has worked with police in 367 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: many different occasions. That sounds to me like he's an 368 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: agent of the police. No, dear lord, we're not there yet. 369 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: Troy again, cart before Horse. You're now trying to argue 370 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: that this guy who has this crazy website run to 371 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: Hitman dot Com is somehow working for the cops, and 372 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: therefore Wendy Wine was entrapped by an agent of the state. 373 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 1: Good luck with that, but at least you get an 374 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: A for effort and a plus for creativity. Jessica Dupnik 375 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,719 Speaker 1: with me, the expert on this case joining us from 376 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: Fox two needs w B JK. Let's just start at 377 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: the beginning. Tell me the whole thing, Jessica, what happened? 378 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: And so miss Wendy Ottom Monroe County, which just real 379 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: little context, blue collar, working class, really middle America outside 380 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: of about forty five minutes outside of Detroit, you know. 381 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: Sits down to her computer. I'm envisioning this and I've 382 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: got a great picture in my head and simply google 383 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: Hitman and of course run to Hitman comes up. She 384 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: fills out what's called a service request. After reading some 385 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: of those testimonials of satisfied clients, fills out her request 386 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: to have her ex has testimonials of satisfied clients on 387 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: his fake yet man site. Unbelievable. One of them actually says, 388 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: I basically I had my husband taken out after he 389 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: cheated with the babysitter, and now I'm single and ready 390 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: to mingle. And for some reason, Wendy did not put 391 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: two and two together that this was the site was 392 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: not on the up and up. Even when she found 393 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: out the hitman was named Guido Finelle, she missed a 394 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: lot of red flags, a lot, okay, So she contacts 395 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: rent a hitman dot com and then what happens with 396 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: me Jessica Dupnac from w BJK. What happens then, so 397 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: the webmaster Bob Innis, who poses his Guido, the person 398 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: she's corresponding with, asks two key questions, do you still 399 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: require services? And do you want me to put put 400 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: you in touch with the field operative, to which she 401 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: said yes to both of those, and at that point 402 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: Bob Innis the creator of this full site. Then he 403 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 1: reaches out to police. Michigan State Police then set up 404 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: a little meet and greed at a cafe in Monroe County, 405 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: and that's where they work a deal for five thousand 406 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: dollars maybe even more, to have her ex husband killed. 407 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 1: And at that time she has do she want him dan? 408 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: I mean, is he as an ex correct? And another 409 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: reason eight for a reason I guess in another state. 410 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: And I guess she just couldn't let it go. She 411 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: just she she wanted to end it. You know, that's 412 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: when you grab your stuff and run. He's an X, 413 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: they're divorced, and he's in another state. Run lady, run. Okay, guys, 414 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: take a listen now to our cut. Five kimberly gilded 415 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: di IV four knees. A Monroe County woman is facing 416 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: felony charges after allegedly trying to hire a hitman to 417 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: kill her husband. Prosecutors say fifty one in World Windy Wine, 418 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: contact of the humor site rent a hitman dot com 419 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: and specified her ex husband as the target. The owner 420 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: of the site contacted state police, who set up an 421 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: undercover sting in South Rockwood. She allegedly offered five thousand 422 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: dollars to an undercover state trooper to kill her X. 423 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: She was arrested on charges of solicitation of murder and 424 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: using a computer to commit a crime. Yeah, you may 425 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: laugh all the way to the courthouse. Wendy Wine is 426 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: all funding games. Sill somebody calls the cops and that 427 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: somebody was rent a hitman dot com. Time Stories with 428 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace joining me right now is a special guest 429 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: who was an x on the Dark Web and murder 430 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: for higher website. Specifically, it's Thomas Holt, the director, the 431 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: professor at the School of Criminal Justice, Michigan State University. Professor, 432 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, my pleasure, Thank you 433 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: for having me. Professor. I'm sure you know the facts 434 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: about the Windy Wine case. Who actually goes online to 435 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: rent a hitman dot com? Which is there's a great 436 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: article in the Rolling Stone on this which is actually 437 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: a spoof website created by a guy and his word's 438 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: not mine, Professor I didn't think people would be that stupid, 439 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: but actually he thinks he's saved about well nearly two 440 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: hundred lives by people who are actually hiring a hitman 441 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: coming to his website. First of all, could you explain 442 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: what exactly is the dark web? Sure, the dark web 443 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: is a portion of the Internet that is hosted on 444 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: what's called tour and it's essentially an encrypted portion of 445 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: the Internet. So to get there you have to download 446 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: special tools like tour or free to P. There's a 447 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: few different protocols that are out there, but they enable 448 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: you to slow it down. Slow it down, sir, I'm 449 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: just a JD. You are the n i quote direct 450 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: chair and professor at the School of Criminal Justice at 451 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: Michigan State University, focusing on computer hacking, malware and the 452 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,479 Speaker 1: role of the Internet and facilitating all manner of crime 453 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: and deviance. Wow, I bet you can't fit that on 454 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: a business card, but I for one and very impressed. 455 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: So what were you saying? So basically, there's a difference 456 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: between the open web, which is where the website this 457 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: person access is hosted. That's the part of the Internet 458 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: you can get to through any web browser. So when 459 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: you go and you go online through Firefox or Chrome 460 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: or whatever it is that you use, those are the 461 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: sites you can get to without having to do anything special. 462 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: To get to the dark Web, you have to download 463 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: a special kind of software, and there's different kinds of 464 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: software out there, like Tour or free two P to 465 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: download to as in a Tour of Homes t you 466 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: are tour What are you saying? I know, it's actually 467 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: Tour t o R. And it stands for the Union 468 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: Go ahead. And it basically works by encrypting your traffic 469 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: through other people's systems. So when you download the software, 470 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: your computer traffic, your internet traffic gets routed through other 471 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: people who've downloaded the software as well, so it hides 472 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: where you are by moving you through other people's systems. 473 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: And people host things on the dark web like hitman 474 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: schemes or hacking content, or a lot of child pornography 475 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: and sexual exploitation content because it's harder to be identified 476 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: because you know what we were just talking about, professor, 477 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 1: We were just talking I guess it was Monday, Jackie. 478 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: We were talking about the Josh Dugger case, remember nineteen 479 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: and counting on TLC downloading all the child porn through 480 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: the dark web. And that's when I first heard the 481 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: phraseology that you're talking about with me is Professor Thomas 482 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: Holt from Michigan State University. Go ahead, professor, And that's 483 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: exactly right. There's a lot of different child pornography and 484 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: sexual exploitation content on the dark web because it's harder 485 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: to identify the users. So when you go to a 486 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: website like lent a Hitman on the open Web, that 487 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: site can capture your IP address, And so when you 488 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: go to that site, if you're doing it from your home, 489 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: that means the individual running the site knows, Okay, this 490 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: person at this date and time connected with my site 491 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: and then made a request. So it's easier to be identified. 492 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: You make yourself more open on the open web, whereas 493 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: you're concealed when you're on the dark web. What's interesting, Well, 494 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: there's so many things interesting about Wendy Wine's case. Jessica 495 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: Doopnak joining us from Fox to wb JK Detroit. Jessica 496 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: is that while we have been joking around and somewhat glib, 497 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: we're all just happy, Jessica, because he's not dead. The 498 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: victim is not dead for once and a case that 499 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: we're covering. But when we hear the professor speaking about 500 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: what is found on the dark web, as Professor Holt 501 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: pointed out, child porn, all manner of how to make 502 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: a bomb, how to hire a hit man, how to 503 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: create fake IDs, how to get out of the country, 504 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: how to get fake passports, how to cheat how to 505 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,719 Speaker 1: cheat on your taxes, how to make meth. It's all, 506 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: how to make a bottle, it's all there on the 507 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: dark Web. I hope my children never find out about 508 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: the dark Web. And it's very, very sobering, Jess got Morgan. 509 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: You're a professor of forensics, but I think of you 510 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: as a death investigator. When you're hearing Professor Holt describing 511 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: what's on the dark Web, it almost makes me sick 512 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: to my stomach. Yeah, it does. And you know, you 513 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: and I we have these things that kind of haunt 514 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: our dreams, don't we, Nancy, from the things that we've seen. 515 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: And many people that take this deep dive into this 516 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: abysmal area, they haven't seen the things that we've seen, 517 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: and they don't understand the danger that is involved in 518 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: this environment and the people that dwell out there. You know, 519 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: you can imagine these folks that are out there seeking 520 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: out these kinds of services that again are unsophisticated when 521 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: it comes to crime, and they step off of this 522 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: ledge into this environment and you, you know, you really 523 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: don't know what you're going to bring through the Internet 524 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: back into your own life, and you know, many times 525 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: he'll follow with it. You know Roy Slayton. Yeah, jump in, daughter, Sherry, 526 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: this is Jessica. I just espe. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jessica. 527 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: When you think about Wendy, I mean, she's just kind 528 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: of your average woman. And you talk about the Internet, 529 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: you talk about the dark Web and just the accessibility 530 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: of it. Anybody can get to it. You have a 531 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: passing thought, you can jump on the computer, you can 532 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: take a deep dive and you're there. It's all at 533 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: your fingertips. And this was just sort of a regular woman, 534 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: obviously with some very dark, deep thoughts. You know, Jessica 535 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: Dubnak joining me, who has been on this case from 536 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: the beginning. I guess I always knew about the dark Web, 537 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: but it really hit home, I would say. And the 538 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: nineties when I met a young girl, her name is Marsha, 539 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: and she had been adopted from a Russian orphanage to 540 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: a single man in the US, who, of course was 541 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: a pedophile, and he took all sorts of video images 542 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: of her being raped. He would tire her up to 543 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: a tree in the backyard and sex assault her and 544 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: then pass it around on the Internet like baseball cards. 545 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: And she and I went to Congress to try to 546 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: beg for strict reinforcement of rules against child pornography and trading. 547 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 1: Pedophiles trade these images online again like baseball cards. That's 548 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that's on the dark web. And 549 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 1: Jessica Doupnat brought up something really interesting, doctor Sherry Sworts. 550 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: That is seemingly normal, average ex wife slash mom would 551 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: seek this out online. It's kind of hard to reconcile 552 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: the two images. You got a soccer mom and you 553 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: got a woman going online to order a hit, exactly. 554 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: And I would say, I understand what she's saying, right, 555 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: because on the surface, she looks normal, but this is 556 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: not normal behavior, because yeah, I'm just a tad. I 557 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: know that I'm coming to you for your right a 558 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: little more Dodgers Gary exactly. But you know, and the 559 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: really interesting part of this, I find many parts of 560 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: it interesting. But she actually, in one of the communications 561 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: with the website owner, Bob Innes, says to him, it's 562 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: kind of weird your company's not on the deep or 563 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: dark web. So she knows enough to know about the 564 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: dark web, and she says, I don't want to go 565 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: to jail. So she's showing us that from the psychological perspective, 566 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: she knows the difference between right and wrong. Well, there 567 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: goes you're insanity play. I don't want to go to 568 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: jail for this. It's like, I'm not sorry I did it, 569 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: but I'm sure as hell don't want to go to 570 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: hell for it. So Jessica jack Nang joining me w 571 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: B JK. Does the case stand right now? So there 572 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 1: was a plea that was struck in the case, she 573 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 1: pled guilty to count solicitation of murder using a computer 574 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,919 Speaker 1: to commit a crime. Sentencing after the first of the year. 575 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: I think it's a cap of nine years that she 576 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: won't serve any more time than nine years. So we'll 577 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: see after the first of the year exactly what a 578 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: judge will decide in terms of, you know, sentencing here. 579 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: Does this woman have children, Jessica, You know, it's very interesting. 580 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: We don't know a ton about her personal life. Not 581 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: a lot of that was revealed, and it moved a 582 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: little bit fast just because of the plea deal that 583 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: was struck. So's it's unclear. No one's come forward to 584 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: myself or any of the local media because this is 585 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: obviously a case. We talk about it just much like 586 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: everybody on the panel, just kind of shocked by it all. 587 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: If I may, this is tom Hole. One of the 588 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: important things is that these hitman sites on the dark Web. 589 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: We don't really know how many people engage with them, 590 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: but there have been a number of arrests over the 591 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: last few years for people who are attempting to use 592 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,720 Speaker 1: these services, so it's a pretty frequent or persistent issue. 593 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: The main thing is that most of those hitman providers 594 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: are fake. They're just taking the individual's money and then 595 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: they never have to deliver. There's not a real expectation 596 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 1: that you'll hear from your hitman that the act has 597 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: been completed. So it's an easy scam to run, and 598 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: it sets up a lot of opportunities for bad guys 599 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: on the internet to make a lot of money with 600 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: nothing that they have to actually deliver. Well, I can 601 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: only hope that you're right. Well, we wait as just 602 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: as unfolds and as this case goes to sentencing. I'm 603 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,439 Speaker 1: watching you, judge Nancy Grace from story signing off, goodbye friend.