Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant right there, and Jerry's Well,
Speaker 1: she was just here a second ago and she's pretty
Speaker 1: much here. She left so recently that she might as
Speaker 1: well still be here. So this is still stuff you
Speaker 1: should know. Yeah, true Crime Edition, we do these occasionally.
Speaker 1: I just dropped on my knees to thank the creator
Speaker 1: that you didn't say a dish. Yeah, true Crime Edition
Speaker 1: we do these sometimes we uh, without getting a bandwagoning.
Speaker 1: We've kind of always done them here and there. Hey update, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll get a million emails between now and then.
Speaker 1: But the chow Chilla bus kidnapper, did you see has
Speaker 1: been granted parole? Yeah? I did see that. So that
Speaker 1: was one of our recent true crime episodes. And we've
Speaker 1: had a few people right in. It's the guys. Looks
Speaker 1: like he's getting out, yeah, the last one, right, the
Speaker 1: other two are out. The last one, Yeah, the main
Speaker 1: jerk with that all the money, he was the main
Speaker 1: jerk for sure. So um, this is true crime too.
Speaker 1: As you were saying, it probably won't be an update
Speaker 1: on this one. I don't think so that it was
Speaker 1: most possible, but probably not. The most recent update was
Speaker 1: a movie from two thousand and eight called Changeling, not
Speaker 1: the Changeling, which is maybe the greatest horror movie ever made,
Speaker 1: starring George C. Scott back in Man, that's a good movie.
Speaker 1: This is a totally different kind of movie called Changeling
Speaker 1: and started Angelina Joe Lee, who was directed by Clint
Speaker 1: Eastwyd And I watched I watched it last night, made
Speaker 1: it through the whole movie and still had an hour
Speaker 1: to go. Yah, it is pretty long. Um, it was okay.
Speaker 1: I thought it was had a little bit of a
Speaker 1: movie the weak quality to it definitely because some of
Speaker 1: the acting was way for the top. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I give it medium, Like I give it a two
Speaker 1: and a half thumbs out of five. Okay, what would
Speaker 1: you give it? You know, I would probably give it
Speaker 1: precisely the same amount of thumbs. Like it's watchable, it's
Speaker 1: engrossing and all that, but it's also hard to look
Speaker 1: past some of its flaws. No exit, I'll tell you that.
Speaker 1: And there was some parts that like it's sort of
Speaker 1: hard to parse out the you know, the dramatic license, uh,
Speaker 1: and the fictionalized aspects of it with the true story.
Speaker 1: And I even tried to look up some to see like,
Speaker 1: well did this happen? And it seemed like it was
Speaker 1: verified that it did. But then I was like, or
Speaker 1: is this person just writing from seeing this movie the Ladder?
Speaker 1: Probably so, so we might mention a few of those
Speaker 1: in there. Yeah, because he did take a tremendous amount
Speaker 1: of license and just little details, nothing that ultimately changed
Speaker 1: the story, but you know the important stuff when he's
Speaker 1: reunited with his mom. No, well we'll point it out
Speaker 1: at the end. You'll just stick around for that, please do,
Speaker 1: because like I said, I split, like before the end,
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to bed. I'm okay. That
Speaker 1: was I thought that was a joke about it. I
Speaker 1: mean I was joking. I would have been blown away
Speaker 1: if you've been like yeah, but but I mean small things.
Speaker 1: So we'll get into it a little bit. We'll just
Speaker 1: pick on Clint Easwood from time to time for fun.
Speaker 1: So what we're talking about is a is a disappearance um,
Speaker 1: a very sad case of a famous disappearance that took
Speaker 1: place in nine in Los Angeles, back when you could
Speaker 1: like pick oranges on any given street. Back there. It
Speaker 1: was still a still weird town, Is that true? Um?
Speaker 1: It was a town trees in their yard, sure, but
Speaker 1: not everybody where everybody. Yeah, okay, thank you for that.
Speaker 1: But I was trying to find its its feet, it's purpose,
Speaker 1: it's point. It was a freaky little town back then.
Speaker 1: Still is a freaky town, but it was really freaky
Speaker 1: for some reason to me, Like the n twenties in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles is as weird as it gets for that city.
Speaker 1: And this is a this is it was during that
Speaker 1: time that this boy went missing, a nine year old
Speaker 1: named Walter Collins, and that in and of itself is
Speaker 1: extremely sad. But the different twists and turns in horrors
Speaker 1: of this case and not necessarily horrors in the traditional
Speaker 1: true crime sense. So there were some of those, but
Speaker 1: just bizarre horrors, things that just shouldn't have happened. And
Speaker 1: that just compounded to the tragedy of this case. It
Speaker 1: makes it one of the most unique, I think true
Speaker 1: crime cases in American history. If you ask me, yeah,
Speaker 1: and trigger warning if serious harmful gas lighting triggers you
Speaker 1: then skip the episode or hold onto your hats because oh, boy,
Speaker 1: it's infuriating. Yes, all right, I guess we should start
Speaker 1: with the simple fact that in March mother named Christine
Speaker 1: Collins uh told her nine year old son he could
Speaker 1: go to the movies and gave him a dime to
Speaker 1: go do so, and he disappeared or she was called
Speaker 1: in to work and he disappeared from their home. If
Speaker 1: you're Clint East, were just making stuff up, that's right.
Speaker 1: A little bit of backstory here. Um, she was a
Speaker 1: single mom in a sense that her husband was in prison,
Speaker 1: Walter's father, Colin Sr. Whose real name, it turns out,
Speaker 1: was Walter Anson. She had married about ten years prior
Speaker 1: to Walter Junior's disappearance, and did not know that he
Speaker 1: had a criminal background. Uh it were a different name now,
Speaker 1: and he was in ne put in prison for uh
Speaker 1: multiple armed robberies. And I believe the sentence was about
Speaker 1: five to ten years. Yeah, And I mean, like that
Speaker 1: was just totally unbeknownster. She thought she had a good one,
Speaker 1: or at least a mediocre one, not an armed robber
Speaker 1: who was gonna get sent a full awesome. I think
Speaker 1: mediocre was about what you could shoot for sure. Um,
Speaker 1: So she was the sole breadwinner in the house. She
Speaker 1: was supporting their son by herself. Um, and this is
Speaker 1: just a generally unplanned life. But from all accounts, including
Speaker 1: Clint Eastwood's, um, she was a good She was a
Speaker 1: good mom who was making her way and just kind
Speaker 1: of took took the hand that was dealt to her
Speaker 1: and was making making it work as best she could. Right.
Speaker 1: And a little more backstory to kind of color what
Speaker 1: was going on in terms of the Los Angeles Police
Speaker 1: Department at the time, because that figures in and a
Speaker 1: very key way here is they had just right before
Speaker 1: his disappearance had been recently fairly um exposed slash embarrassed
Speaker 1: by another kidnapping case in December of seven when a
Speaker 1: twelve twelve year old named Marion Parker was a very
Speaker 1: prominent banker's daughter was kidnapped, held for ransom, and then
Speaker 1: when it came time to do the money exchange, he
Speaker 1: just dumped her her body, her dead body on the
Speaker 1: lawn and was arrested and convicted of murder, which was
Speaker 1: a big black eye and staying on the l a
Speaker 1: p DS reputation. Yeah, it was a like her her case,
Speaker 1: I mean, like we bring it up just to kind
Speaker 1: of set the tone like this happened and was in
Speaker 1: all the papers. It was a huge piece of news
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, like just a month or two before um.
Speaker 1: But also like if you it's a really if you're
Speaker 1: into true crime, like that case is really heartrending. It's
Speaker 1: really awful too in and of itself. But of course
Speaker 1: you can imagine that Miriam Parker's case is you know,
Speaker 1: front and center on Christine Colin's mind. Then she realizes
Speaker 1: that Walter has not come home from the from the movies. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so sort of a double whammy. It's it's on every
Speaker 1: parent's mind and l A p. D is gotten mud
Speaker 1: on their face or egg or do you. Plus also
Speaker 1: they seem to be widely considered and extremely corrupt, but
Speaker 1: then also just as bad, if you know, just as bad,
Speaker 1: almost as bad incompetent. I guess if you have a
Speaker 1: police force that is well meaning but incompetent, like maybe
Speaker 1: the Keystone Cops or something, it's hard to get mad
Speaker 1: at them all the time. But if they're corrupt and incompetent,
Speaker 1: like that's about as bad a combination you can ask
Speaker 1: for in a police force. Incompetent police force is only
Speaker 1: funny in slapstick comedies. It's not funny in real life, no,
Speaker 1: but but yeah, no not it's funny on the indy
Speaker 1: grific shoe. Yeah, but I mean, ultimately, was Barney incompetent,
Speaker 1: Like you dropped his gun and stuff. But he always
Speaker 1: got the bad guy, didn't he. That's pretty funny he
Speaker 1: dropped his gun and stuff. But is that really incompetent?
Speaker 1: I mean, if the if the it all turned out
Speaker 1: well in the end, is all I'm saying, you know,
Speaker 1: that justifies the incompetence, because all it's gonna do is
Speaker 1: drop and go off and shoot the dinner bell and
Speaker 1: he's gonna go dinner already. A right dinner happens early
Speaker 1: and the criminals sits down to dinner with the family.
Speaker 1: Nothing like an Andy Griffith show reference to just keep
Speaker 1: us popular with the kids. Yeah, where are we? Please
Speaker 1: stop a kid? I'm sorry we are, Chuck to answer
Speaker 1: your question, um, at about the point where Christine has
Speaker 1: just realized that Walter is missing, which is a terrible
Speaker 1: point to be at, it is, she goes to the cops.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this happened in real life, but
Speaker 1: in the movie there was a twenty four hour wait
Speaker 1: period before they would do anything because kids usually come home,
Speaker 1: and I think that has been the case historically and
Speaker 1: a lot of missing uh person's cases, right, they will
Speaker 1: delay it for a minute. Yeah, you know. I wondered though, how, um,
Speaker 1: what anachronism that is in the movie. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that was like something that came later or whatever,
Speaker 1: but that's like the first thing Angeline and Jolie is
Speaker 1: told when she calls the cops that you gotta wait
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. Whether that happened or not. The Los
Speaker 1: Angeles Times had an article about the case back in
Speaker 1: and they said that the lap D mounted national search.
Speaker 1: It was a big deal. So whether it started twenty
Speaker 1: four hours or later, whatever, there was like a big
Speaker 1: search for Walter. It wasn't just like, you know whatever.
Speaker 1: At some point it picked up and became a legitimate,
Speaker 1: like missing child case. Yeah. Um. There were a few tips.
Speaker 1: One of the best ones was from a gas station
Speaker 1: worker in Glendale said they saw someone who looked like
Speaker 1: Walter in the back of a car hiding under some
Speaker 1: newspapers right right, but only his face wasn't covered, so
Speaker 1: it was like the worst covering job of all time.
Speaker 1: The worst covering job or the kid managed to wriggle
Speaker 1: out or something. Okay, well, yeah, I guess that could
Speaker 1: be the case too. But the driver was described as
Speaker 1: Italian looking. Uh. And then there was another report of
Speaker 1: a quote foreign looking end quote couple roaming Walter's neighborhood
Speaker 1: looking suspicious in the days before the disappearance. So the
Speaker 1: first you know, posters that were put up by the
Speaker 1: cops said to be on the lookout for a middle
Speaker 1: age Italian man and a very small woman. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: and Walter's dad said, hey, hey, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be left out of this. I want to contribute. What
Speaker 1: if it's one of the enemies I've made here in prison.
Speaker 1: Apparently he worked in the kitchen and part of his
Speaker 1: responsibility was snitching on other prisoners. I guess they kind
Speaker 1: of came with kitchen duty. Um. So he he was like,
Speaker 1: of course I've made some enemies here there. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: one of them exacting revenge. And that apparently was the
Speaker 1: lead that the police followed, but it didn't go anywhere.
Speaker 1: So Walter Senior can go step back out for a
Speaker 1: little while of the picture. Yeah, I mean, it is
Speaker 1: kind of stymying at this point because they didn't have money,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't a clear case of ransom like it
Speaker 1: was with the the wealthy banker. Uh So, I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's better or worse for a parent to
Speaker 1: have money and think it's probably a ransom situation. Shian.
Speaker 1: It seems like it's probably more distressing in this case
Speaker 1: because your child was just gone and like what could
Speaker 1: they possibly want and return? Yeah? Um yeah so but
Speaker 1: also I could see it giving you hope to that
Speaker 1: maybe he's just missing, maybe ran away or something like that.
Speaker 1: But that the reports of that couple and then from
Speaker 1: the gas station attendant to it certainly didn't help ease
Speaker 1: any concerns that he had been kidnapped for one reason
Speaker 1: or another. And that seems to be the premise that
Speaker 1: everybody was moving on. That he wasn't just missing, he
Speaker 1: hadn't just run away, um, And if Angelina Jolie is
Speaker 1: to be believed, um, his mother would have known that
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have just run away, that he he would
Speaker 1: have had to have been taken against as will. Right.
Speaker 1: So they've I think about five months go by. Uh,
Speaker 1: no more big leads, no clues, no um forward movement
Speaker 1: of the case really and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: out of nowhere, and it's a very dramatic moment in
Speaker 1: the film. Obviously. Uh, they call up Christine and said,
Speaker 1: we found your son. He's in Illinois, cab Illinois. Uh,
Speaker 1: he's doing fine. All you gotta do is is scrape
Speaker 1: together the money to pay for him to come back.
Speaker 1: When I was like, really and that was actually true
Speaker 1: and they were reunited. Uh. Dave Bruce, who utput us together,
Speaker 1: said it was in a juvenile hall, but in the
Speaker 1: movie it's by a train at a train station, because
Speaker 1: that looks great on film. It does. Yeah, the cook happens, josh. Um,
Speaker 1: something really terrible happened in the film and in real life. Um,
Speaker 1: when Christine Collins saw her son, she said, that's not
Speaker 1: my son. Yeah, that's someone else. I don't I don't
Speaker 1: know who that is. But I think the quote was,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's my son. And here's where the
Speaker 1: gas lighting begins, by the way. Yeah, so the villain
Speaker 1: the one of the villains. But um, yeah, one of
Speaker 1: the villains of the story is a guy in m J. J. Jones.
Speaker 1: He was a police captain with the L A p. D.
Speaker 1: And he was in charge of the juvenile crimes unit,
Speaker 1: so he had this missing person's case of Walter on
Speaker 1: his hands. So he was there presiding over this reunion because, um,
Speaker 1: you know, the l a p D could use the
Speaker 1: good press, and it was a happy story. It was
Speaker 1: a huge story, and this was definitely more of a
Speaker 1: feather in the cap for the l a p D
Speaker 1: versus a black eye for the l a p D.
Speaker 1: Like the Miriam Parker case was. Um, so of course
Speaker 1: they wanted to play it up. So it did not
Speaker 1: settle well with Captain J. J. Jones that the mother
Speaker 1: of this boy, who was supposed to be happy and
Speaker 1: crying and and thanking the l a p D. Was saying, essentially,
Speaker 1: you brought the wrong kid. This is not my kid. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he starts gaslighting right out of the gate. Uh,
Speaker 1: in the room, saying oh no, no, no, no, mom,
Speaker 1: you're just not recognizing your son. He's been away for
Speaker 1: five months. Uh. He's acting weird. And in the movie
Speaker 1: it's hysterical because I guess it was a directorial decision
Speaker 1: to have the boy be sort of stilted because you know,
Speaker 1: he's not the real son. But in the movie he's
Speaker 1: just like, hello, I am Walter and you are my mother,
Speaker 1: and I would like to hug you. Now basically, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was really pretty bad. But maybe that was the point. Um.
Speaker 1: But anyway, they he starts gas flaring. Understand, No, he's changed,
Speaker 1: he's lost some weight. Uh, he's gonna return to normal.
Speaker 1: And what was the classic line was try the boy out.
Speaker 1: Just take him home and try him out for a
Speaker 1: little while and maybe, you know, see if you like him,
Speaker 1: maybe he'll fit. Um. But yeah, that set off this,
Speaker 1: like like you said, you know, campaign of gaslighting. That
Speaker 1: Christine was clearly you know, distressed, fraught, Um was still
Speaker 1: recovering from the shock, and that Walter had changed in
Speaker 1: some ways out on this five months that he endured
Speaker 1: at having god knows what, you know, and being involved
Speaker 1: in god knows what, and that those two things put
Speaker 1: together or making her think that that this wasn't her kid,
Speaker 1: and there's um she finally relents, actually and Dave tries
Speaker 1: to tries to kind of gas at what what it was,
Speaker 1: and I think he kind of paints a really good
Speaker 1: picture of you know, the pressure from the police, the press,
Speaker 1: they're taking photographs, everybody wanting this to be a happy occasion,
Speaker 1: a little boy looking up at her. I'm sure wanting
Speaker 1: this kid to be her little boy, but also being
Speaker 1: repelled by the idea that that, you know, she's gonna
Speaker 1: take some other kid as her boy. She did, she
Speaker 1: did relent there at the juvenile detention center and basically
Speaker 1: agreed to take the strange kid home with her. Uh.
Speaker 1: She agreed to try him out. And there's a photo
Speaker 1: of Christine Collins with this boy, UM that's pretty famous.
Speaker 1: You can find it very easily, I think if you
Speaker 1: just type in Christine Collins um and you see her face,
Speaker 1: the expression on her face, and you know the backstory.
Speaker 1: It's one of the most heartbreaking photos you'll ever see.
Speaker 1: When you know the full story, It's it's awful because
Speaker 1: you can see all of these thoughts that are in
Speaker 1: her mind, like and just the the the just the
Speaker 1: terrible everything that she's going through just right there on
Speaker 1: her face. But she's also trying to smile in a
Speaker 1: way too, and that little boy is just beaming, grinning
Speaker 1: from ear to ear. It's a really weird juxtaposition. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very distressing to look at. Uh. And the gas
Speaker 1: lighting continued with the psychologists later and the doctors who
Speaker 1: had examined the boy, Uh psychology and nineteen I mean,
Speaker 1: feel what you feel about it now. But you know,
Speaker 1: they basically said, and this is a quote, he has
Speaker 1: certain aisles of memory that are apparently blank. And Uh
Speaker 1: then went on to say, you know, he he doesn't
Speaker 1: remember any of the toys he played with, and he
Speaker 1: doesn't remember any of the people from before, his neighbors
Speaker 1: and stuff, or any of his classmates. But this will
Speaker 1: all pass and and he's your son, and he'll be
Speaker 1: he'll be normal pretty soon. Yeah, and she knows it's
Speaker 1: not her kid. Like that's what's so maddening, is that
Speaker 1: it's a parent and their child. Right. Yeah, So imagine
Speaker 1: like being in that position where everyone is telling you, like, no,
Speaker 1: you're wrong, not just this one police captain, but the people.
Speaker 1: The police captain is basically hired and recruited to come
Speaker 1: back his his point in the l a p d
Speaker 1: S position up that you're wrong, this is your kid.
Speaker 1: Stop stop being a weirdo and just accept this kid.
Speaker 1: And also, and um, the movie really does a good
Speaker 1: job of hitting this uh several times. If the if
Speaker 1: the l a p d Thinks that they brought Walter back,
Speaker 1: and that's their position. They're not out looking for Walter,
Speaker 1: so therefore who who knows where Walter is? And like
Speaker 1: just more and more time is being wasted while they're
Speaker 1: not looking for Walter because they're saying this kid is Walter,
Speaker 1: even though she knows that this is not Walter. So
Speaker 1: I just I can't imagine having been in that position
Speaker 1: and just the you know, just when you're stressed out
Speaker 1: about normal stuff like work stuff or whatever like that,
Speaker 1: the attention you can have in your in your shoulders,
Speaker 1: around your neck, and like just how your face can
Speaker 1: just feel weird sometimes and you're you can get headaches
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Imagine having that starting to creep
Speaker 1: up and develop and compound because that's your situation, and
Speaker 1: then having no framework, no guidelines, no nothing to help
Speaker 1: you say, oh well, when this happens, when somebody says
Speaker 1: that a kid that's not your kid is your kid,
Speaker 1: this is what society is prescribed for you to do
Speaker 1: to kind of as a release or an outlet. Having
Speaker 1: nothing like that and having to figure out what to
Speaker 1: do on your own. I cannot imagine the turmoil that
Speaker 1: Christine Collins went through just from this part, all right,
Speaker 1: I think we should take a break. It's a nice
Speaker 1: robust first act. Yes, yeah, yeah, and we'll come back
Speaker 1: and talk a little bit about what happened once you
Speaker 1: got this boy home right after this. All right, So
Speaker 1: Christine Collins has fake Walter Collins back at her house
Speaker 1: and she uh, and this is one of those things
Speaker 1: where it was a scene in the movie that I
Speaker 1: looked up, and I did see another article that mentioned this,
Speaker 1: but I couldn't tell if it was taken from the
Speaker 1: movie or not because I didn't find it elsewhere. But
Speaker 1: one of the big giveaways to her was when she
Speaker 1: was bathing the boy that he was circumcised, and I
Speaker 1: couldn't find out if that was really the case, um,
Speaker 1: which is frustrating. But in the movie, you know, when
Speaker 1: she tells this to the officer to to uh what's
Speaker 1: his name owns, he basically says, you know, it's amazing
Speaker 1: what people might do to a kid, like basically gaslighting,
Speaker 1: further saying like, well, he was circumcised while he was
Speaker 1: after he was abducted during these five months. But I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's true or not, and that's really frustrating.
Speaker 1: What I do know is that she knew it was
Speaker 1: a charade. Uh, she got dental records. She went to
Speaker 1: his teachers and like everyone, you know, these teachers who
Speaker 1: spent every day with them during the school year. We're like, no,
Speaker 1: this isn't Walter. Obviously. Yeah. So she got people who
Speaker 1: were who were not only willing to back her up,
Speaker 1: but we're like, we're willing to testify to this. Here's
Speaker 1: this kid's dental records. Here's Walter's dental records. Apparently Walter
Speaker 1: head fillings and this kid had never seen a dentist
Speaker 1: before I saw somewhere. Um. And she went back, after
Speaker 1: I think three weeks of trying to make this work
Speaker 1: three weeks, she went back to um, Captain Jones and said,
Speaker 1: here's the gental records. Here are all these people who say, no,
Speaker 1: this is not Walter. And Captain Jones had a very um,
Speaker 1: unpleasant response to that, to being challenged by this again,
Speaker 1: this thing that he had decided was settled. Um. He
Speaker 1: basically charged her with being a terrible mother. He said, Um,
Speaker 1: you are the most cruel hearted woman I've ever known.
Speaker 1: Accused her of trying to shirk her her motherly duties. Um,
Speaker 1: and to get the state basically to raise her kid,
Speaker 1: as if she didn't want her her son anymore, so
Speaker 1: now she'd seen a chance to kind of pawn them off.
Speaker 1: Um And as she persisted during I guess this conversation, um,
Speaker 1: he I guess, brought the hammer down. He like played
Speaker 1: an even harder card than continuing gas lighting. He had
Speaker 1: her committed to the state hospital against her will. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's that deal where like, you
Speaker 1: get caught in a lie, so you just keep lying.
Speaker 1: Like the l a p d already looked bad, They
Speaker 1: all of a sudden looked pretty good with this case.
Speaker 1: But if it came out that they gave purposely gave
Speaker 1: her the wrong kid, like what that would do to
Speaker 1: the l a p D's reputation. He was desperate and
Speaker 1: just dug himself into a pit and had her, like
Speaker 1: he said, had her committed using what's called a code twelve,
Speaker 1: which means that you were dangerously disturbed, uh, dangerously disturbed
Speaker 1: criminal And she was none of these things. And they
Speaker 1: sent her away. And this was at a time when
Speaker 1: you could do that and sneak her out the back
Speaker 1: door and no one knows anything happened. Basically, Yeah, so
Speaker 1: she spent I believe, six full days in um, in
Speaker 1: this this psychiatric unit at the l A County Hospital. Um,
Speaker 1: again against her will. She was medicated there, she was
Speaker 1: held there, she was putting a room with um. She
Speaker 1: had to share a room with a woman who she
Speaker 1: said she could feel her hands around her throat every
Speaker 1: time she does. Um. Who. By the way, Chuck, if
Speaker 1: you noticed in the movie that that roommate at the
Speaker 1: mental hospital was played by Dale Dickey, who is also
Speaker 1: in Mela's movie No Exit. Oh wow, So Um, it
Speaker 1: really is so and she's actually just really like she's
Speaker 1: one of those character actors you've seen a bunch of
Speaker 1: different times but never paid attention to. Really like she's
Speaker 1: in Winner's Bone. Um, she plays a pretty pretty prominent
Speaker 1: role in that at the end anyway, Um she plays
Speaker 1: uh oh, Angelina Jolie's roommate and they're a great effect.
Speaker 1: But um, she spent So the real Christine Colin spent
Speaker 1: six days in this hospital against her will. And it's
Speaker 1: not entirely certain. Well, I guess it is certain she
Speaker 1: would have gotten out because at the end of six
Speaker 1: days of psychiatrists finally got a chance to see her
Speaker 1: and said, um, you're totally saying you can go. But
Speaker 1: in that six days, this whole story took and even
Speaker 1: more incredible twist. Yeah, and just quickly, like if you've
Speaker 1: seen the movie, I'm guessing that that sort of evil
Speaker 1: doctor was a movie addition, uh, because I think they
Speaker 1: probably needed like a Nurse Ratchet type in there. I
Speaker 1: don't think that was a real person. No. And not
Speaker 1: only did they have the evil doctor, they had a
Speaker 1: nurse Ratchet and then a nurse Ratchet's assistant, like he
Speaker 1: just threw everything. It was just really ham fisted. Nurse
Speaker 1: Ratchet was Ricky Lindholme, which is weird. Who's that. She's
Speaker 1: a comedic actor, so it was strange to see her
Speaker 1: in this role as like an evil nurse. Oh really Okay?
Speaker 1: And then I don't know if you noticed, also, but
Speaker 1: Michael Scott's girlfriend, Holly Flax, plays a sex worker um
Speaker 1: who ends up befriending and Angelina Jolie in the mental hospital.
Speaker 1: Did I notice Amy Ryan? I noticed her and everything? Okay, great?
Speaker 1: Did you like her in Only Murders in the Building?
Speaker 1: I did. I liked her. I like Amy Ryan and everything.
Speaker 1: She's one of my favorite actors. She's great, and I
Speaker 1: really love that show, by the way, yea, and not
Speaker 1: because they have sponsored the show. Oh have they? Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were there, maybe that's coming down the pike. But
Speaker 1: they asked. They were like, they're gonna come on as
Speaker 1: a sponsor, and I was like, great, I love that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well nobody asked me, but I'm on board too.
Speaker 1: They did ask you approved it? Oh yeah, okay, I
Speaker 1: do remember, I do remember. Okay, You're right, all right,
Speaker 1: So you were talking about things getting really crazy. Uh.
Speaker 1: They had managed to keep this quiet that she was
Speaker 1: falsely arrested and basically stuck in a mental hospital that
Speaker 1: did not get out. She got out, she went home.
Speaker 1: Uh Walter. At this point, fake Walter is kept in
Speaker 1: Juvie as a ward of the state. And there was
Speaker 1: another kid in Juvie, a fifteen year old named Sanford Clark,
Speaker 1: who had quite a story to share in that right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Sanford Clark is the nephew of a guy named
Speaker 1: Gordon Stewart North Coop, and um Sandford says he wants
Speaker 1: to speak to the cops because he wants to say
Speaker 1: that he has been forced to participate in the murder
Speaker 1: of a number of little boys, and that one of
Speaker 1: those little boys was the boy who was in all
Speaker 1: the newspapers, Walter Collins. So you can just like if
Speaker 1: I guess, they had gramophones back then, so you just
Speaker 1: hear the needle scratch on the gramophone at the right.
Speaker 1: So at this point in the story, the evil police
Speaker 1: Captain Jones is put on that murder case and he's
Speaker 1: in a position where he's on this new case. This
Speaker 1: boy says that Walter Collins was murdered, but he had
Speaker 1: just you know, stuck Christine Collins in a mental ward
Speaker 1: for a week. So he starts lying even more and
Speaker 1: told reporters that Christine Collins just told me a day
Speaker 1: before that she didn't think Walter was her son, that
Speaker 1: was a fake Walter, when it was actually a week earlier.
Speaker 1: And so he was just again just digging holes here
Speaker 1: with these lies. And they also said the reporters said, sir, sir, okay,
Speaker 1: where's where's Christine Collins? We want to talk to her,
Speaker 1: And he's like, oh, well, she's at the County hospital
Speaker 1: for observation. She obviously had you know, she took it
Speaker 1: really hard when she heard that her her son had
Speaker 1: been you know, was a murder victim. So we put
Speaker 1: her in there yesterday and she'd already been in there
Speaker 1: for six days. So, um, the question was raised just
Speaker 1: immediately if Walter Collins was was killed um by Gordon
Speaker 1: Northcott and with an assist by his nephew Sanford Clark. Um,
Speaker 1: who was this little kid who was saying he was
Speaker 1: Walter Collins and everybody else was saying, yes, he's Walter Collins.
Speaker 1: And that was a pretty interesting story in and of itself,
Speaker 1: for sure. Why don't we take a break? And now
Speaker 1: you're so mean? Who fake Walter is right after this? Alright, late,
Speaker 1: honest fake Walter Chuck was drummer? Will please Arthur Hutchins Jr.
Speaker 1: That was a Michael Scott reference joke, it was. Uh.
Speaker 1: So here was Arthur's story. In June, which was the
Speaker 1: summer before the disappearance of Walter, Arthur ran away from
Speaker 1: home in Illinois. Uh. He had a bad step mom,
Speaker 1: he had a dad that wouldn't do anything about it.
Speaker 1: Just not a good home situation. And he was a
Speaker 1: you know, it was the time in America when a
Speaker 1: twelve year old was also like a full grown adult
Speaker 1: that they wanted to be. So he kind of took
Speaker 1: off on the road. He worked jobs, he hitchhiked, and
Speaker 1: it gets old dodgy about what exactly happened. Uh. In
Speaker 1: the movie, he basically levied a charge against the police,
Speaker 1: saying like this was their idea, Like they kind of
Speaker 1: picked me up and told me to pretend I was
Speaker 1: this kid. Other people say that he hatched the plan.
Speaker 1: He always want to go to l A to meet
Speaker 1: Tom Mix, the Cowboy movie star, Silent Error movie star,
Speaker 1: So like he saw this kid was missing, so he
Speaker 1: hatched the idea himself. Other people say that they picked
Speaker 1: him up in the cab Illinois. The police did, and
Speaker 1: when they were um talking to him might have mentioned Walter,
Speaker 1: and the kid had the idea from there. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: either way, this kid saw his chance for a free
Speaker 1: one way ticket to Hollywood and his cowboy hero Tom Mix,
Speaker 1: and he took it. Um. He styled himself, we should say,
Speaker 1: as a boy adventurer. So that was like kind of
Speaker 1: the mindset this kid had totally lost on him. From
Speaker 1: you know what, I can tell the gravity of what
Speaker 1: he was doing to Christine Collins, that that he was
Speaker 1: perpetrating knew it was perpetrating a fraud, But it seems
Speaker 1: like he considered it harmless. And it wasn't until it
Speaker 1: was pointed out like do you understand what you've done
Speaker 1: to this this poor woman that that he was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess I owe or an apology or something like that.
Speaker 1: It just didn't occur to him. Um, however you want characterized,
Speaker 1: he was a bad kid or thoughtless or careless or whatever.
Speaker 1: But um, he finally gets He finally confesses and apparently
Speaker 1: put up a fight too. That it wasn't until they
Speaker 1: had um a proof that his handwriting didn't match Walters
Speaker 1: that they finally and the cops, by the way, finally said,
Speaker 1: you're not Walter kid. You make different rs here. Apparently
Speaker 1: the way that he wrote ours was in a way
Speaker 1: that was in Illinois. But you couldn't find that kind
Speaker 1: of our teaching anywhere in California. The old Illinois are
Speaker 1: that's right. They had him dead to rights and he
Speaker 1: finally confesses and tells them all this that he's he's
Speaker 1: a little Arthur Hutchins Jr. So he gets reunited with
Speaker 1: his family. Um, but then that leaves us back at
Speaker 1: square one. Walter is still missing, and then now there's
Speaker 1: Sanford Clark, who was saying that Walter is actually not missing.
Speaker 1: Walter is dead because my uncle and I, against my will,
Speaker 1: killed Walter among some other boys. That's where we're at
Speaker 1: with Christine. Yeah, I mean the story of Sanford Clark
Speaker 1: is equally sad. He he did participate in these crimes,
Speaker 1: but he was uh, he was there getting sexually abused,
Speaker 1: physically abused, emotionally abused, was told that he would be
Speaker 1: killed if he didn't help out. So this is a
Speaker 1: kid who um who, who didn't know what he was
Speaker 1: doing and fortunate into doing these things. He's also a
Speaker 1: victim here. So at this point in the story, it
Speaker 1: could have been the end, Like Christine could have said,
Speaker 1: my son is dead, the boy fake Walter is gone
Speaker 1: back to his family. I'm a woman, It's what recourse
Speaker 1: do I have. But to her credit, she stood strong
Speaker 1: and said, no, I'm not taking this. Uh. Not only
Speaker 1: am I not convinced that Walter's dead, but that aside,
Speaker 1: I need to tell I need to expose my treatment
Speaker 1: and I need to expose Captain Jones and the l
Speaker 1: A p D. And so I'm going to come forward
Speaker 1: with his information. Yeah, which she did. So remember like
Speaker 1: by this time, the press had no idea what had
Speaker 1: happened to her, and she just dropped this this truth
Speaker 1: bomb on him, saying, so the l a p D
Speaker 1: heard from me for a long time that this was
Speaker 1: not my kid, and not only told me it was,
Speaker 1: they institutionalized me against my will. Told the presser story. Um,
Speaker 1: with the help of apparently local women's leagues took up
Speaker 1: her cause. And then so did Reverend Gustav Brieglib who's
Speaker 1: played by Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich in the in the movie.
Speaker 1: I think he got involved way earlier in the movie
Speaker 1: than he did in real life. Yeah, yeah, but he
Speaker 1: helped publicize her. He was an anti l a p
Speaker 1: D corruption crusader, um and this is a great example
Speaker 1: of the corruption and incompetence of the l a p D. UM,
Speaker 1: And he helped take up her story and publicize it.
Speaker 1: But um, she probably thought that was going to be enough,
Speaker 1: because the county convened a grand jury and they heard
Speaker 1: her testimony and they didn't even bother calling Captain Jones
Speaker 1: to testify. They just basically gave her a chance to
Speaker 1: tell her story and then hope that it would go away,
Speaker 1: and they demonstrated that they hoped it would go away
Speaker 1: because they referred the matter to the Police Commission to
Speaker 1: handle itself. That's right, the commission said no disciplinary action
Speaker 1: against Captain Jones. Arthur Hudgins fooled everybody, um and Dave
Speaker 1: points out like, yeah, except for mom who was screaming
Speaker 1: the whole time that this is not my kid. So
Speaker 1: that was such a flimsy argument to to not do
Speaker 1: anything to Captain Jones. And this could have been the
Speaker 1: end of the story. And Christine Jones was what met
Speaker 1: with another brick wall. But no, she said, huh, I'm
Speaker 1: going to hire a lawyer and I'm gonna sue the
Speaker 1: l A. P D And Captain Jones for false imprisonment.
Speaker 1: It made all the news. Sued for a half a
Speaker 1: million bucks, and again the reverend in the Women's league
Speaker 1: got you know, press going and got everyone whipped up
Speaker 1: into a frenzy about it and got a lot of support,
Speaker 1: and the l A. County opened up a grand jury investigation. Again,
Speaker 1: the city Council Welfare Committee recommended that Jones and police
Speaker 1: chief resign. That didn't happen. He ended up getting a
Speaker 1: four month suspension without pay. And Uh, the civil suit
Speaker 1: did make it to court and she won, but uh
Speaker 1: was never paid a dime, which is what happens in
Speaker 1: a lot of cases. Yeah, and she kept she she
Speaker 1: kept doggedly pursuing Captain Jones for decades. She would drag
Speaker 1: him to court every once in a while, and um,
Speaker 1: have a judge say you have to pay her, and
Speaker 1: Captain Jones would be like, I don't have any money,
Speaker 1: can't get blood from a stone, sorry, and she she has.
Speaker 1: She never got a penny out of him, Uh, despite
Speaker 1: being owed about a hundred and eighty grand in today's
Speaker 1: money ten hundred dollars back then, which is just so infuriating.
Speaker 1: But at the very least she was like, Okay, if
Speaker 1: you're not gonna pay me, I'm not I'm just not
Speaker 1: gonna drop it. At least I'm still going to drag
Speaker 1: you to court whenever I can to make you have
Speaker 1: to talk about this again. Um. And so uh, apparently Christine,
Speaker 1: like you said, she did not believe, don't you want
Speaker 1: to say? Apparently she definitely did not believe that Walter
Speaker 1: was killed um by Gordon Stewart Northcott and Gordon Stewart
Speaker 1: Northcott turned out to be a serial murderer, and his
Speaker 1: murders are called the Wineville Chicken Coop murders because apparently
Speaker 1: the actual murders took place with an axe in the
Speaker 1: chicken coop on this remote ranch about an hour east
Speaker 1: of Los Angeles. Um and Sandford Clark was there, but
Speaker 1: also too, and this isn't portrayed in the movie. Gordon's mother,
Speaker 1: Sarah Louise Northcott, was also an active participant in all
Speaker 1: this too, which makes the whole thing about a hundred
Speaker 1: million times more horrific than it would have been had
Speaker 1: she not been involved. Frankly, Yeah, now it's like a
Speaker 1: Texas chainsaw mask. Her family, Uh, living out in the
Speaker 1: Sticks at the time, it was the Sticks east of
Speaker 1: Los Angeles. Now, like everything else in the south Land,
Speaker 1: it's just one continuous suburb. Back then it was just farmland.
Speaker 1: And uh, these you know, he could have murdered up
Speaker 1: to twenty kids. We'll talk a little bit more about
Speaker 1: the case, but um, he sexually abused these boys. He
Speaker 1: kept them in the chicken coop. Um. He originally lived
Speaker 1: not too far from the Collins Is And what started
Speaker 1: here was this weird game between uh north Cut, his
Speaker 1: mom and Um and Christine of him telling her like
Speaker 1: he's dead. That had been him saying I didn't kill him,
Speaker 1: and then him saying well I did kill him, and
Speaker 1: then him saying no, I didn't, and then the mom
Speaker 1: saying well, no, I killed him, and then the mom
Speaker 1: saying no, I didn't. And I just can't imagine after
Speaker 1: all Christine Collins has been through, Like how upsetting it
Speaker 1: was to go through this emotional roller coaster still of
Speaker 1: them admitting and then recanting their murder. Yeah, and even
Speaker 1: worse than that, Gordon Northcott UM represented himself in court
Speaker 1: and he called Christine Collins as a character as a
Speaker 1: defense witness and said, UM put her on the stand
Speaker 1: and said do you think I killed your son? And
Speaker 1: she was like, no, actually I don't. And she produced
Speaker 1: a piece of evidence that had been left out of
Speaker 1: the papers that a few days after um Walter went missing,
Speaker 1: someone threw a rock through her window and on the
Speaker 1: rock or attached to the rock, it's not clear to me.
Speaker 1: Um something said uh boy bad sick, afraid to call doctor,
Speaker 1: And to her that meant that somebody had abducted Walter,
Speaker 1: but it just wasn't. Gordon Northcott. Yeah, that's A. I
Speaker 1: still don't know what to make of that one. I
Speaker 1: don't either, But what Christine made of it is that
Speaker 1: Gordon Northcott did not kill her boy, that he had
Speaker 1: been abducted by somebody else in that to her, he
Speaker 1: was still out there. And she was so either convinced
Speaker 1: of this or wanted to believe it so badly that
Speaker 1: she went on to the stand to this serial murderers
Speaker 1: trial and acted as a witness in his defense. Um.
Speaker 1: And in the end, it didn't it didn't work. Um.
Speaker 1: Gordon Northcott was convicted of killing a handful of boys,
Speaker 1: multiple boys. But it's I think you said before Sanford
Speaker 1: Clark said maybe as many as twenty boys that I
Speaker 1: think he was convicted of four and the mom was
Speaker 1: convicted of killing Walter specifically. But yeah, the boys said
Speaker 1: that you know, there's uh twenty bodies buried, which wasn't
Speaker 1: exactly true because they burned a lot of the bodies. Uh.
Speaker 1: There ended up being bones and evidence though there was enough,
Speaker 1: like they found letters written by two of the boys
Speaker 1: that he was accused of murdering Um that was written
Speaker 1: by them to their parents that were that never went um,
Speaker 1: that were never sent um. But they they um they
Speaker 1: got enough of evidence at least against Gordon to convictim,
Speaker 1: and then apparently he was all circumstantial against his mother,
Speaker 1: but she was convicted any away, and so Gordon was
Speaker 1: sentenced to hang. His mother was sentenced to life in prison,
Speaker 1: and a couple of days before he um was executed,
Speaker 1: Gordon sent a telegram to Christine Collins and said, um,
Speaker 1: I lied about uh not killing your boy. If you'll
Speaker 1: come visit me in prison before I'm executed, I'll tell
Speaker 1: you the truth. Okay. So remember, she thinks she's testified
Speaker 1: at his trial that he didn't do it, that this
Speaker 1: terrible person had not killed her son, and now he
Speaker 1: sent her a telegram two days before he died saying
Speaker 1: he did. So of course, she goes to San Quentin,
Speaker 1: meets with him, and he says, I don't want to
Speaker 1: meet with you. Um, I didn't have anything to do
Speaker 1: with your boy. Go away. Yeah. I mean, I just
Speaker 1: can't imagine her mental state at this point of being
Speaker 1: jerked around by the cops for all that time and
Speaker 1: now being jerked around by this guy on death row.
Speaker 1: Just I don't know if he was just sick and
Speaker 1: like toying with her or that sort of prisoner thing.
Speaker 1: I feel like I've seen this in movies before, where
Speaker 1: they do something like this just to like have one
Speaker 1: last meeting with somebody before they die. That isn't a
Speaker 1: prison guard. Everybody loves a good meeting. But he was
Speaker 1: hanged right in front of her face. Apparently, Yeah, she
Speaker 1: stuck around. I guess the warden was like, he did,
Speaker 1: what to you listen if you want to stick around
Speaker 1: and witness his death too. And apparently she did not
Speaker 1: out of vengeance necessarily, but um, because she was she
Speaker 1: was hoping that at the at some point before he died,
Speaker 1: he would tell her the truth or tell her something.
Speaker 1: And he didn't. He went like a schmo because he
Speaker 1: was a schmo. He was a terrible child murdering schmo. Um.
Speaker 1: And so Gordon Northcott is executed. And these these Wineville
Speaker 1: Chicken Coop murders are so notorious and so disgusting, um
Speaker 1: as child murders tend to be. That the the town
Speaker 1: changed its name a couple of months after Gordon Northcott
Speaker 1: was executed to mirror Loma. It's what it's called today. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like just drive east from Los Angeles, you'll hit it.
Speaker 1: They didn't like that name anymore. Change the name. Uh
Speaker 1: here's where the what what you missed at the end
Speaker 1: of the movie. And I think this was created out
Speaker 1: of whole cloth to give everyone like a good feeling
Speaker 1: in their tom toms uh in the movie version. And
Speaker 1: if you don't want to hear this, you stop listening
Speaker 1: right now. Give you a plenty of warning. Uh. So
Speaker 1: this part we know it's true. Uh it was how
Speaker 1: many months later did another boy show up that said
Speaker 1: that he had escaped from I heard five years Oh?
Speaker 1: Was it five years later? All right? So in the
Speaker 1: movie they squashed that down. So that's obviously licensed dramatic license.
Speaker 1: But I think the true story is that this boy
Speaker 1: just said that he had been a kidnapping victim of
Speaker 1: north Cut but got out. Didn't that right? Wasn't that
Speaker 1: kind of the end of it. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: saw that that a kid had been who had who
Speaker 1: north Cut had been accused of killing, turned up safe
Speaker 1: and sound five years later, and that gave her hope. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that gave her hope for the rest of her life.
Speaker 1: She died in I think nineteen sixty four and apparently
Speaker 1: was looking for Walter the whole time. So in the
Speaker 1: movie version, and this is clearly dramatic license, the story
Speaker 1: the boy tells is that there was a late night
Speaker 1: escape after they dislodged the wire of the chicken coop,
Speaker 1: and that he had gotten stuck, and that Walter had
Speaker 1: had already run away and came back and saved him.
Speaker 1: And if it hadn't have been for Walter, he never
Speaker 1: would have gotten out of there. So in the movie version,
Speaker 1: obviously felt the need Old Clint felt the need to
Speaker 1: paint Walter or whoever that screenwriter was to uh as
Speaker 1: a as a hero in the end who gave his
Speaker 1: life to help this other boy get saved, which like,
Speaker 1: you don't even need to do that. It was so aggravating, No,
Speaker 1: it really is. The writers like, how am I going
Speaker 1: to get out of this? So that's it. One little
Speaker 1: footnote of this. If you didn't think Christine Collins had
Speaker 1: it hard enough, um this whole time, at the peak
Speaker 1: of this stuff, at the at some of the worst
Speaker 1: parts of it. Um, her husband remembers in prison the
Speaker 1: whole time. And so she's petitioning the parole board. Actually
Speaker 1: has friends. There's record of a friend writing the pearole
Speaker 1: board talking about what a terrible state Christine is in
Speaker 1: and what you please let her husband out so at
Speaker 1: the very least he can go to work to support
Speaker 1: her because she can't work anymore. Um. And the Pearl
Speaker 1: Board wrote back in the movie version and said, we're sorry,
Speaker 1: but Walter Collins died in prison in N two. Very
Speaker 1: interesting and sad. So you got anything else about the
Speaker 1: sad story of Christine and Walter Collins? No, it is,
Speaker 1: Uh boy, it's a lesson in in uh hard lesson
Speaker 1: in gas lighting and and what still happens, but what
Speaker 1: definitely stoppened a lot more back then. Yeah, heavy stuff man.
Speaker 1: Uh well, since Chuck said it used to happen a
Speaker 1: lot more back then, followed by heavy stuff. As everyone
Speaker 1: who listens to the podcast knows, that means it's time
Speaker 1: for a listener mail. I'm gonna call this rewolving follow up.
Speaker 1: Hey guys, long time listener. Really interesting episode and rewilding.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you got the point across at the end,
Speaker 1: goal to let nature do its thing, but the humans
Speaker 1: have messed things up so much in places that sometimes
Speaker 1: we need to give it a little helping hand to
Speaker 1: help it along its way before stepping back and giving
Speaker 1: its space. Right. You mentioned that we tend to be
Speaker 1: very short time frame focus, but there is a distinction
Speaker 1: between cultures. Many indigenous cultures have a mindset that focuses
Speaker 1: on much longer time frames. The specific practices in place
Speaker 1: for thinking of future generations. I believe one is to
Speaker 1: think about things for seven generations time. Getting indigenous cultures
Speaker 1: involved in projects and stewardship of the land serves to
Speaker 1: gain wisdom from cultures that have been living harmoniously with
Speaker 1: nature for generations. Plus brings in the mindset of thinking
Speaker 1: for generations to come, not even mentioning the ethical reasons
Speaker 1: for involving them. That is from Paul uh with the
Speaker 1: question mark. Now, that is from Paul who was the
Speaker 1: chief technology officer at Massy Earth, helping to rewild our planet.
Speaker 1: So wow, go to the Mossy Earth website and check
Speaker 1: it out. See what they're up to. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: mean we got one from like a legit insider. That's great,
Speaker 1: I think so, and that is a massy dot Earth. Cool.
Speaker 1: How do you get a dot earth website? Uh? You
Speaker 1: pay through the wazoo, use a lot of donations. I
Speaker 1: want to be Josh and Chuck dot Earth. Yeah, that'd
Speaker 1: be good. I was thinking Josh and Chuck dot biz,
Speaker 1: but sure that one works too. About dot earth biz.
Speaker 1: So thanks a lot, Paul. We really appreciate you, uh
Speaker 1: you writing to us, and if you want to be
Speaker 1: like Paul, you can send us an email to stuff podcast. Man.
Speaker 1: I'm going to get it after we're done at i
Speaker 1: heart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a
Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. H