1
00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,240
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I

2
00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,440
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

3
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,919
Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant right there, and Jerry's Well,

4
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:18,880
Speaker 1: she was just here a second ago and she's pretty

5
00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,280
Speaker 1: much here. She left so recently that she might as

6
00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:24,279
Speaker 1: well still be here. So this is still stuff you

7
00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,960
Speaker 1: should know. Yeah, true Crime Edition, we do these occasionally.

8
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,959
Speaker 1: I just dropped on my knees to thank the creator

9
00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:39,840
Speaker 1: that you didn't say a dish. Yeah, true Crime Edition

10
00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,840
Speaker 1: we do these sometimes we uh, without getting a bandwagoning.

11
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:47,320
Speaker 1: We've kind of always done them here and there. Hey update, Yeah,

12
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll get a million emails between now and then.

13
00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,559
Speaker 1: But the chow Chilla bus kidnapper, did you see has

14
00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,120
Speaker 1: been granted parole? Yeah? I did see that. So that

15
00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,120
Speaker 1: was one of our recent true crime episodes. And we've

16
00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,000
Speaker 1: had a few people right in. It's the guys. Looks

17
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,679
Speaker 1: like he's getting out, yeah, the last one, right, the

18
00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,480
Speaker 1: other two are out. The last one, Yeah, the main

19
00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,319
Speaker 1: jerk with that all the money, he was the main

20
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:15,679
Speaker 1: jerk for sure. So um, this is true crime too.

21
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,039
Speaker 1: As you were saying, it probably won't be an update

22
00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,200
Speaker 1: on this one. I don't think so that it was

23
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,680
Speaker 1: most possible, but probably not. The most recent update was

24
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,480
Speaker 1: a movie from two thousand and eight called Changeling, not

25
00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,479
Speaker 1: the Changeling, which is maybe the greatest horror movie ever made,

26
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 1: starring George C. Scott back in Man, that's a good movie.

27
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,360
Speaker 1: This is a totally different kind of movie called Changeling

28
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,360
Speaker 1: and started Angelina Joe Lee, who was directed by Clint

29
00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,559
Speaker 1: Eastwyd And I watched I watched it last night, made

30
00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:47,680
Speaker 1: it through the whole movie and still had an hour

31
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:53,080
Speaker 1: to go. Yah, it is pretty long. Um, it was okay.

32
00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:54,680
Speaker 1: I thought it was had a little bit of a

33
00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 1: movie the weak quality to it definitely because some of

34
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,680
Speaker 1: the acting was way for the top. Yeah, I mean

35
00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,880
Speaker 1: I give it medium, Like I give it a two

36
00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,519
Speaker 1: and a half thumbs out of five. Okay, what would

37
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,200
Speaker 1: you give it? You know, I would probably give it

38
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,919
Speaker 1: precisely the same amount of thumbs. Like it's watchable, it's

39
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 1: engrossing and all that, but it's also hard to look

40
00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,600
Speaker 1: past some of its flaws. No exit, I'll tell you that.

41
00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,280
Speaker 1: And there was some parts that like it's sort of

42
00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,640
Speaker 1: hard to parse out the you know, the dramatic license, uh,

43
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,520
Speaker 1: and the fictionalized aspects of it with the true story.

44
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,120
Speaker 1: And I even tried to look up some to see like,

45
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,480
Speaker 1: well did this happen? And it seemed like it was

46
00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,880
Speaker 1: verified that it did. But then I was like, or

47
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 1: is this person just writing from seeing this movie the Ladder?

48
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,280
Speaker 1: Probably so, so we might mention a few of those

49
00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,919
Speaker 1: in there. Yeah, because he did take a tremendous amount

50
00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,160
Speaker 1: of license and just little details, nothing that ultimately changed

51
00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:00,560
Speaker 1: the story, but you know the important stuff when he's

52
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,880
Speaker 1: reunited with his mom. No, well we'll point it out

53
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 1: at the end. You'll just stick around for that, please do,

54
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,240
Speaker 1: because like I said, I split, like before the end,

55
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,920
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to bed. I'm okay. That

56
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 1: was I thought that was a joke about it. I

57
00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,120
Speaker 1: mean I was joking. I would have been blown away

58
00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,760
Speaker 1: if you've been like yeah, but but I mean small things.

59
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 1: So we'll get into it a little bit. We'll just

60
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,000
Speaker 1: pick on Clint Easwood from time to time for fun.

61
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: So what we're talking about is a is a disappearance um,

62
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,480
Speaker 1: a very sad case of a famous disappearance that took

63
00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,480
Speaker 1: place in nine in Los Angeles, back when you could

64
00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 1: like pick oranges on any given street. Back there. It

65
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,920
Speaker 1: was still a still weird town, Is that true? Um?

66
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,560
Speaker 1: It was a town trees in their yard, sure, but

67
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,920
Speaker 1: not everybody where everybody. Yeah, okay, thank you for that.

68
00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,720
Speaker 1: But I was trying to find its its feet, it's purpose,

69
00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,320
Speaker 1: it's point. It was a freaky little town back then.

70
00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,120
Speaker 1: Still is a freaky town, but it was really freaky

71
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,840
Speaker 1: for some reason to me, Like the n twenties in

72
00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,960
Speaker 1: Los Angeles is as weird as it gets for that city.

73
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,520
Speaker 1: And this is a this is it was during that

74
00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,880
Speaker 1: time that this boy went missing, a nine year old

75
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 1: named Walter Collins, and that in and of itself is

76
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:18,400
Speaker 1: extremely sad. But the different twists and turns in horrors

77
00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,080
Speaker 1: of this case and not necessarily horrors in the traditional

78
00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,120
Speaker 1: true crime sense. So there were some of those, but

79
00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 1: just bizarre horrors, things that just shouldn't have happened. And

80
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,279
Speaker 1: that just compounded to the tragedy of this case. It

81
00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,560
Speaker 1: makes it one of the most unique, I think true

82
00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,640
Speaker 1: crime cases in American history. If you ask me, yeah,

83
00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:43,160
Speaker 1: and trigger warning if serious harmful gas lighting triggers you

84
00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,680
Speaker 1: then skip the episode or hold onto your hats because oh, boy,

85
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,599
Speaker 1: it's infuriating. Yes, all right, I guess we should start

86
00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 1: with the simple fact that in March mother named Christine

87
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,360
Speaker 1: Collins uh told her nine year old son he could

88
00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,440
Speaker 1: go to the movies and gave him a dime to

89
00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,679
Speaker 1: go do so, and he disappeared or she was called

90
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,440
Speaker 1: in to work and he disappeared from their home. If

91
00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,960
Speaker 1: you're Clint East, were just making stuff up, that's right.

92
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,359
Speaker 1: A little bit of backstory here. Um, she was a

93
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,920
Speaker 1: single mom in a sense that her husband was in prison,

94
00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,760
Speaker 1: Walter's father, Colin Sr. Whose real name, it turns out,

95
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,320
Speaker 1: was Walter Anson. She had married about ten years prior

96
00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,360
Speaker 1: to Walter Junior's disappearance, and did not know that he

97
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:40,040
Speaker 1: had a criminal background. Uh it were a different name now,

98
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,919
Speaker 1: and he was in ne put in prison for uh

99
00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,799
Speaker 1: multiple armed robberies. And I believe the sentence was about

100
00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 1: five to ten years. Yeah, And I mean, like that

101
00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,960
Speaker 1: was just totally unbeknownster. She thought she had a good one,

102
00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,680
Speaker 1: or at least a mediocre one, not an armed robber

103
00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,680
Speaker 1: who was gonna get sent a full awesome. I think

104
00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,320
Speaker 1: mediocre was about what you could shoot for sure. Um,

105
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,440
Speaker 1: So she was the sole breadwinner in the house. She

106
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,160
Speaker 1: was supporting their son by herself. Um, and this is

107
00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:20,839
Speaker 1: just a generally unplanned life. But from all accounts, including

108
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,720
Speaker 1: Clint Eastwood's, um, she was a good She was a

109
00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,960
Speaker 1: good mom who was making her way and just kind

110
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 1: of took took the hand that was dealt to her

111
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,560
Speaker 1: and was making making it work as best she could. Right.

112
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,840
Speaker 1: And a little more backstory to kind of color what

113
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 1: was going on in terms of the Los Angeles Police

114
00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,320
Speaker 1: Department at the time, because that figures in and a

115
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,600
Speaker 1: very key way here is they had just right before

116
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:48,400
Speaker 1: his disappearance had been recently fairly um exposed slash embarrassed

117
00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:54,000
Speaker 1: by another kidnapping case in December of seven when a

118
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,760
Speaker 1: twelve twelve year old named Marion Parker was a very

119
00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,039
Speaker 1: prominent banker's daughter was kidnapped, held for ransom, and then

120
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,120
Speaker 1: when it came time to do the money exchange, he

121
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,719
Speaker 1: just dumped her her body, her dead body on the

122
00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,600
Speaker 1: lawn and was arrested and convicted of murder, which was

123
00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 1: a big black eye and staying on the l a

124
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 1: p DS reputation. Yeah, it was a like her her case,

125
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,720
Speaker 1: I mean, like we bring it up just to kind

126
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,080
Speaker 1: of set the tone like this happened and was in

127
00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,040
Speaker 1: all the papers. It was a huge piece of news

128
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,480
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, like just a month or two before um.

129
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,080
Speaker 1: But also like if you it's a really if you're

130
00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 1: into true crime, like that case is really heartrending. It's

131
00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,760
Speaker 1: really awful too in and of itself. But of course

132
00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,480
Speaker 1: you can imagine that Miriam Parker's case is you know,

133
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,440
Speaker 1: front and center on Christine Colin's mind. Then she realizes

134
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 1: that Walter has not come home from the from the movies. Yeah,

135
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: so sort of a double whammy. It's it's on every

136
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,200
Speaker 1: parent's mind and l A p. D is gotten mud

137
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,400
Speaker 1: on their face or egg or do you. Plus also

138
00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 1: they seem to be widely considered and extremely corrupt, but

139
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,720
Speaker 1: then also just as bad, if you know, just as bad,

140
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 1: almost as bad incompetent. I guess if you have a

141
00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 1: police force that is well meaning but incompetent, like maybe

142
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,600
Speaker 1: the Keystone Cops or something, it's hard to get mad

143
00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,840
Speaker 1: at them all the time. But if they're corrupt and incompetent,

144
00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,680
Speaker 1: like that's about as bad a combination you can ask

145
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,160
Speaker 1: for in a police force. Incompetent police force is only

146
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 1: funny in slapstick comedies. It's not funny in real life, no,

147
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,640
Speaker 1: but but yeah, no not it's funny on the indy

148
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:38,640
Speaker 1: grific shoe. Yeah, but I mean, ultimately, was Barney incompetent,

149
00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,040
Speaker 1: Like you dropped his gun and stuff. But he always

150
00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,440
Speaker 1: got the bad guy, didn't he. That's pretty funny he

151
00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,199
Speaker 1: dropped his gun and stuff. But is that really incompetent?

152
00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 1: I mean, if the if the it all turned out

153
00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,080
Speaker 1: well in the end, is all I'm saying, you know,

154
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,720
Speaker 1: that justifies the incompetence, because all it's gonna do is

155
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,080
Speaker 1: drop and go off and shoot the dinner bell and

156
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,240
Speaker 1: he's gonna go dinner already. A right dinner happens early

157
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,360
Speaker 1: and the criminals sits down to dinner with the family.

158
00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,679
Speaker 1: Nothing like an Andy Griffith show reference to just keep

159
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,320
Speaker 1: us popular with the kids. Yeah, where are we? Please

160
00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:19,920
Speaker 1: stop a kid? I'm sorry we are, Chuck to answer

161
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,720
Speaker 1: your question, um, at about the point where Christine has

162
00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,640
Speaker 1: just realized that Walter is missing, which is a terrible

163
00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,760
Speaker 1: point to be at, it is, she goes to the cops.

164
00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:32,520
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this happened in real life, but

165
00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 1: in the movie there was a twenty four hour wait

166
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,760
Speaker 1: period before they would do anything because kids usually come home,

167
00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,160
Speaker 1: and I think that has been the case historically and

168
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,560
Speaker 1: a lot of missing uh person's cases, right, they will

169
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 1: delay it for a minute. Yeah, you know. I wondered though, how, um,

170
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,120
Speaker 1: what anachronism that is in the movie. I don't know

171
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,720
Speaker 1: if that was like something that came later or whatever,

172
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,440
Speaker 1: but that's like the first thing Angeline and Jolie is

173
00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,920
Speaker 1: told when she calls the cops that you gotta wait

174
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,400
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. Whether that happened or not. The Los

175
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,800
Speaker 1: Angeles Times had an article about the case back in

176
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,800
Speaker 1: and they said that the lap D mounted national search.

177
00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,920
Speaker 1: It was a big deal. So whether it started twenty

178
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,480
Speaker 1: four hours or later, whatever, there was like a big

179
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,320
Speaker 1: search for Walter. It wasn't just like, you know whatever.

180
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,880
Speaker 1: At some point it picked up and became a legitimate,

181
00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:28,440
Speaker 1: like missing child case. Yeah. Um. There were a few tips.

182
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,720
Speaker 1: One of the best ones was from a gas station

183
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 1: worker in Glendale said they saw someone who looked like

184
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 1: Walter in the back of a car hiding under some

185
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,320
Speaker 1: newspapers right right, but only his face wasn't covered, so

186
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 1: it was like the worst covering job of all time.

187
00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,480
Speaker 1: The worst covering job or the kid managed to wriggle

188
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 1: out or something. Okay, well, yeah, I guess that could

189
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 1: be the case too. But the driver was described as

190
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 1: Italian looking. Uh. And then there was another report of

191
00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,679
Speaker 1: a quote foreign looking end quote couple roaming Walter's neighborhood

192
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:04,200
Speaker 1: looking suspicious in the days before the disappearance. So the

193
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,200
Speaker 1: first you know, posters that were put up by the

194
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,640
Speaker 1: cops said to be on the lookout for a middle

195
00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,040
Speaker 1: age Italian man and a very small woman. Yeah. So,

196
00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,000
Speaker 1: and Walter's dad said, hey, hey, I don't want to

197
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,280
Speaker 1: be left out of this. I want to contribute. What

198
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,000
Speaker 1: if it's one of the enemies I've made here in prison.

199
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,840
Speaker 1: Apparently he worked in the kitchen and part of his

200
00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,959
Speaker 1: responsibility was snitching on other prisoners. I guess they kind

201
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,840
Speaker 1: of came with kitchen duty. Um. So he he was like,

202
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,480
Speaker 1: of course I've made some enemies here there. Maybe it's

203
00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,920
Speaker 1: one of them exacting revenge. And that apparently was the

204
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,360
Speaker 1: lead that the police followed, but it didn't go anywhere.

205
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 1: So Walter Senior can go step back out for a

206
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: little while of the picture. Yeah, I mean, it is

207
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,720
Speaker 1: kind of stymying at this point because they didn't have money,

208
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,440
Speaker 1: so it wasn't a clear case of ransom like it

209
00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,000
Speaker 1: was with the the wealthy banker. Uh So, I don't

210
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,480
Speaker 1: know if that's better or worse for a parent to

211
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,280
Speaker 1: have money and think it's probably a ransom situation. Shian.

212
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,079
Speaker 1: It seems like it's probably more distressing in this case

213
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,920
Speaker 1: because your child was just gone and like what could

214
00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,160
Speaker 1: they possibly want and return? Yeah? Um yeah so but

215
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,200
Speaker 1: also I could see it giving you hope to that

216
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 1: maybe he's just missing, maybe ran away or something like that.

217
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,320
Speaker 1: But that the reports of that couple and then from

218
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,160
Speaker 1: the gas station attendant to it certainly didn't help ease

219
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,839
Speaker 1: any concerns that he had been kidnapped for one reason

220
00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:25,640
Speaker 1: or another. And that seems to be the premise that

221
00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,240
Speaker 1: everybody was moving on. That he wasn't just missing, he

222
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,760
Speaker 1: hadn't just run away, um, And if Angelina Jolie is

223
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,720
Speaker 1: to be believed, um, his mother would have known that

224
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,160
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have just run away, that he he would

225
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,120
Speaker 1: have had to have been taken against as will. Right.

226
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,600
Speaker 1: So they've I think about five months go by. Uh,

227
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 1: no more big leads, no clues, no um forward movement

228
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,520
Speaker 1: of the case really and then all of a sudden,

229
00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 1: out of nowhere, and it's a very dramatic moment in

230
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,319
Speaker 1: the film. Obviously. Uh, they call up Christine and said,

231
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,480
Speaker 1: we found your son. He's in Illinois, cab Illinois. Uh,

232
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,080
Speaker 1: he's doing fine. All you gotta do is is scrape

233
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:08,960
Speaker 1: together the money to pay for him to come back.

234
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,679
Speaker 1: When I was like, really and that was actually true

235
00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:17,120
Speaker 1: and they were reunited. Uh. Dave Bruce, who utput us together,

236
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,720
Speaker 1: said it was in a juvenile hall, but in the

237
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,200
Speaker 1: movie it's by a train at a train station, because

238
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:32,640
Speaker 1: that looks great on film. It does. Yeah, the cook happens, josh. Um,

239
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,559
Speaker 1: something really terrible happened in the film and in real life. Um,

240
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:41,920
Speaker 1: when Christine Collins saw her son, she said, that's not

241
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 1: my son. Yeah, that's someone else. I don't I don't

242
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,600
Speaker 1: know who that is. But I think the quote was,

243
00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,680
Speaker 1: I don't think that's my son. And here's where the

244
00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,600
Speaker 1: gas lighting begins, by the way. Yeah, so the villain

245
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:58,280
Speaker 1: the one of the villains. But um, yeah, one of

246
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,040
Speaker 1: the villains of the story is a guy in m J. J. Jones.

247
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,800
Speaker 1: He was a police captain with the L A p. D.

248
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,560
Speaker 1: And he was in charge of the juvenile crimes unit,

249
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,280
Speaker 1: so he had this missing person's case of Walter on

250
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,880
Speaker 1: his hands. So he was there presiding over this reunion because, um,

251
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:15,560
Speaker 1: you know, the l a p D could use the

252
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,599
Speaker 1: good press, and it was a happy story. It was

253
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,360
Speaker 1: a huge story, and this was definitely more of a

254
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,640
Speaker 1: feather in the cap for the l a p D

255
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,600
Speaker 1: versus a black eye for the l a p D.

256
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,600
Speaker 1: Like the Miriam Parker case was. Um, so of course

257
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,000
Speaker 1: they wanted to play it up. So it did not

258
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,040
Speaker 1: settle well with Captain J. J. Jones that the mother

259
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,600
Speaker 1: of this boy, who was supposed to be happy and

260
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 1: crying and and thanking the l a p D. Was saying, essentially,

261
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,280
Speaker 1: you brought the wrong kid. This is not my kid. Yeah,

262
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,480
Speaker 1: so he starts gaslighting right out of the gate. Uh,

263
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,920
Speaker 1: in the room, saying oh no, no, no, no, mom,

264
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 1: you're just not recognizing your son. He's been away for

265
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,520
Speaker 1: five months. Uh. He's acting weird. And in the movie

266
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,320
Speaker 1: it's hysterical because I guess it was a directorial decision

267
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,160
Speaker 1: to have the boy be sort of stilted because you know,

268
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,240
Speaker 1: he's not the real son. But in the movie he's

269
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,000
Speaker 1: just like, hello, I am Walter and you are my mother,

270
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,000
Speaker 1: and I would like to hug you. Now basically, yeah,

271
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,000
Speaker 1: it was really pretty bad. But maybe that was the point. Um.

272
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,920
Speaker 1: But anyway, they he starts gas flaring. Understand, No, he's changed,

273
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,680
Speaker 1: he's lost some weight. Uh, he's gonna return to normal.

274
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,720
Speaker 1: And what was the classic line was try the boy out.

275
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:38,920
Speaker 1: Just take him home and try him out for a

276
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 1: little while and maybe, you know, see if you like him,

277
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,280
Speaker 1: maybe he'll fit. Um. But yeah, that set off this,

278
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,360
Speaker 1: like like you said, you know, campaign of gaslighting. That

279
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 1: Christine was clearly you know, distressed, fraught, Um was still

280
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,040
Speaker 1: recovering from the shock, and that Walter had changed in

281
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,680
Speaker 1: some ways out on this five months that he endured

282
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,880
Speaker 1: at having god knows what, you know, and being involved

283
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,440
Speaker 1: in god knows what, and that those two things put

284
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,680
Speaker 1: together or making her think that that this wasn't her kid,

285
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,760
Speaker 1: and there's um she finally relents, actually and Dave tries

286
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,320
Speaker 1: to tries to kind of gas at what what it was,

287
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:20,880
Speaker 1: and I think he kind of paints a really good

288
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,280
Speaker 1: picture of you know, the pressure from the police, the press,

289
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: they're taking photographs, everybody wanting this to be a happy occasion,

290
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,000
Speaker 1: a little boy looking up at her. I'm sure wanting

291
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 1: this kid to be her little boy, but also being

292
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 1: repelled by the idea that that, you know, she's gonna

293
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,760
Speaker 1: take some other kid as her boy. She did, she

294
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,200
Speaker 1: did relent there at the juvenile detention center and basically

295
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 1: agreed to take the strange kid home with her. Uh.

296
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,800
Speaker 1: She agreed to try him out. And there's a photo

297
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:56,280
Speaker 1: of Christine Collins with this boy, UM that's pretty famous.

298
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 1: You can find it very easily, I think if you

299
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,280
Speaker 1: just type in Christine Collins um and you see her face,

300
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 1: the expression on her face, and you know the backstory.

301
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,720
Speaker 1: It's one of the most heartbreaking photos you'll ever see.

302
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,200
Speaker 1: When you know the full story, It's it's awful because

303
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,359
Speaker 1: you can see all of these thoughts that are in

304
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,960
Speaker 1: her mind, like and just the the the just the

305
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,800
Speaker 1: terrible everything that she's going through just right there on

306
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,439
Speaker 1: her face. But she's also trying to smile in a

307
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,400
Speaker 1: way too, and that little boy is just beaming, grinning

308
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,600
Speaker 1: from ear to ear. It's a really weird juxtaposition. Yeah,

309
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,520
Speaker 1: it's very distressing to look at. Uh. And the gas

310
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 1: lighting continued with the psychologists later and the doctors who

311
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,879
Speaker 1: had examined the boy, Uh psychology and nineteen I mean,

312
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,960
Speaker 1: feel what you feel about it now. But you know,

313
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: they basically said, and this is a quote, he has

314
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,440
Speaker 1: certain aisles of memory that are apparently blank. And Uh

315
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,720
Speaker 1: then went on to say, you know, he he doesn't

316
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,199
Speaker 1: remember any of the toys he played with, and he

317
00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,400
Speaker 1: doesn't remember any of the people from before, his neighbors

318
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 1: and stuff, or any of his classmates. But this will

319
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,239
Speaker 1: all pass and and he's your son, and he'll be

320
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,720
Speaker 1: he'll be normal pretty soon. Yeah, and she knows it's

321
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 1: not her kid. Like that's what's so maddening, is that

322
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:18,040
Speaker 1: it's a parent and their child. Right. Yeah, So imagine

323
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 1: like being in that position where everyone is telling you, like, no,

324
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,000
Speaker 1: you're wrong, not just this one police captain, but the people.

325
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 1: The police captain is basically hired and recruited to come

326
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,440
Speaker 1: back his his point in the l a p d

327
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,320
Speaker 1: S position up that you're wrong, this is your kid.

328
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,640
Speaker 1: Stop stop being a weirdo and just accept this kid.

329
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 1: And also, and um, the movie really does a good

330
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 1: job of hitting this uh several times. If the if

331
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,560
Speaker 1: the l a p d Thinks that they brought Walter back,

332
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 1: and that's their position. They're not out looking for Walter,

333
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,119
Speaker 1: so therefore who who knows where Walter is? And like

334
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,960
Speaker 1: just more and more time is being wasted while they're

335
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,480
Speaker 1: not looking for Walter because they're saying this kid is Walter,

336
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 1: even though she knows that this is not Walter. So

337
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 1: I just I can't imagine having been in that position

338
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 1: and just the you know, just when you're stressed out

339
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,879
Speaker 1: about normal stuff like work stuff or whatever like that,

340
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,200
Speaker 1: the attention you can have in your in your shoulders,

341
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,360
Speaker 1: around your neck, and like just how your face can

342
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,760
Speaker 1: just feel weird sometimes and you're you can get headaches

343
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,160
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Imagine having that starting to creep

344
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,439
Speaker 1: up and develop and compound because that's your situation, and

345
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 1: then having no framework, no guidelines, no nothing to help

346
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 1: you say, oh well, when this happens, when somebody says

347
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:33,880
Speaker 1: that a kid that's not your kid is your kid,

348
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 1: this is what society is prescribed for you to do

349
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 1: to kind of as a release or an outlet. Having

350
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,879
Speaker 1: nothing like that and having to figure out what to

351
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 1: do on your own. I cannot imagine the turmoil that

352
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 1: Christine Collins went through just from this part, all right,

353
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 1: I think we should take a break. It's a nice

354
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 1: robust first act. Yes, yeah, yeah, and we'll come back

355
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:57,800
Speaker 1: and talk a little bit about what happened once you

356
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 1: got this boy home right after this. All right, So

357
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 1: Christine Collins has fake Walter Collins back at her house

358
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,480
Speaker 1: and she uh, and this is one of those things

359
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,679
Speaker 1: where it was a scene in the movie that I

360
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 1: looked up, and I did see another article that mentioned this,

361
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 1: but I couldn't tell if it was taken from the

362
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 1: movie or not because I didn't find it elsewhere. But

363
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 1: one of the big giveaways to her was when she

364
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,879
Speaker 1: was bathing the boy that he was circumcised, and I

365
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,879
Speaker 1: couldn't find out if that was really the case, um,

366
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 1: which is frustrating. But in the movie, you know, when

367
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,600
Speaker 1: she tells this to the officer to to uh what's

368
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 1: his name owns, he basically says, you know, it's amazing

369
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: what people might do to a kid, like basically gaslighting,

370
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 1: further saying like, well, he was circumcised while he was

371
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 1: after he was abducted during these five months. But I

372
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 1: don't know if that's true or not, and that's really frustrating.

373
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: What I do know is that she knew it was

374
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 1: a charade. Uh, she got dental records. She went to

375
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 1: his teachers and like everyone, you know, these teachers who

376
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,919
Speaker 1: spent every day with them during the school year. We're like, no,

377
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 1: this isn't Walter. Obviously. Yeah. So she got people who

378
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,199
Speaker 1: were who were not only willing to back her up,

379
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 1: but we're like, we're willing to testify to this. Here's

380
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 1: this kid's dental records. Here's Walter's dental records. Apparently Walter

381
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,959
Speaker 1: head fillings and this kid had never seen a dentist

382
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 1: before I saw somewhere. Um. And she went back, after

383
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 1: I think three weeks of trying to make this work

384
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 1: three weeks, she went back to um, Captain Jones and said,

385
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 1: here's the gental records. Here are all these people who say, no,

386
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: this is not Walter. And Captain Jones had a very um,

387
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 1: unpleasant response to that, to being challenged by this again,

388
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 1: this thing that he had decided was settled. Um. He

389
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 1: basically charged her with being a terrible mother. He said, Um,

390
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,120
Speaker 1: you are the most cruel hearted woman I've ever known.

391
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: Accused her of trying to shirk her her motherly duties. Um,

392
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 1: and to get the state basically to raise her kid,

393
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: as if she didn't want her her son anymore, so

394
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: now she'd seen a chance to kind of pawn them off.

395
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 1: Um And as she persisted during I guess this conversation, um,

396
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 1: he I guess, brought the hammer down. He like played

397
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 1: an even harder card than continuing gas lighting. He had

398
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 1: her committed to the state hospital against her will. Yeah,

399
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's that deal where like, you

400
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 1: get caught in a lie, so you just keep lying.

401
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: Like the l a p d already looked bad, They

402
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: all of a sudden looked pretty good with this case.

403
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: But if it came out that they gave purposely gave

404
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: her the wrong kid, like what that would do to

405
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 1: the l a p D's reputation. He was desperate and

406
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: just dug himself into a pit and had her, like

407
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: he said, had her committed using what's called a code twelve,

408
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: which means that you were dangerously disturbed, uh, dangerously disturbed

409
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 1: criminal And she was none of these things. And they

410
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,360
Speaker 1: sent her away. And this was at a time when

411
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 1: you could do that and sneak her out the back

412
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: door and no one knows anything happened. Basically, Yeah, so

413
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: she spent I believe, six full days in um, in

414
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 1: this this psychiatric unit at the l A County Hospital. Um,

415
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: again against her will. She was medicated there, she was

416
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: held there, she was putting a room with um. She

417
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: had to share a room with a woman who she

418
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: said she could feel her hands around her throat every

419
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: time she does. Um. Who. By the way, Chuck, if

420
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: you noticed in the movie that that roommate at the

421
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: mental hospital was played by Dale Dickey, who is also

422
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: in Mela's movie No Exit. Oh wow, So Um, it

423
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: really is so and she's actually just really like she's

424
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: one of those character actors you've seen a bunch of

425
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 1: different times but never paid attention to. Really like she's

426
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: in Winner's Bone. Um, she plays a pretty pretty prominent

427
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: role in that at the end anyway, Um she plays

428
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: uh oh, Angelina Jolie's roommate and they're a great effect.

429
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: But um, she spent So the real Christine Colin spent

430
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: six days in this hospital against her will. And it's

431
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: not entirely certain. Well, I guess it is certain she

432
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: would have gotten out because at the end of six

433
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: days of psychiatrists finally got a chance to see her

434
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: and said, um, you're totally saying you can go. But

435
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: in that six days, this whole story took and even

436
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: more incredible twist. Yeah, and just quickly, like if you've

437
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: seen the movie, I'm guessing that that sort of evil

438
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: doctor was a movie addition, uh, because I think they

439
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: probably needed like a Nurse Ratchet type in there. I

440
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: don't think that was a real person. No. And not

441
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: only did they have the evil doctor, they had a

442
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: nurse Ratchet and then a nurse Ratchet's assistant, like he

443
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 1: just threw everything. It was just really ham fisted. Nurse

444
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: Ratchet was Ricky Lindholme, which is weird. Who's that. She's

445
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,239
Speaker 1: a comedic actor, so it was strange to see her

446
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: in this role as like an evil nurse. Oh really Okay?

447
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: And then I don't know if you noticed, also, but

448
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: Michael Scott's girlfriend, Holly Flax, plays a sex worker um

449
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: who ends up befriending and Angelina Jolie in the mental hospital.

450
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: Did I notice Amy Ryan? I noticed her and everything? Okay, great?

451
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: Did you like her in Only Murders in the Building?

452
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: I did. I liked her. I like Amy Ryan and everything.

453
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: She's one of my favorite actors. She's great, and I

454
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: really love that show, by the way, yea, and not

455
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: because they have sponsored the show. Oh have they? Yeah,

456
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: they were there, maybe that's coming down the pike. But

457
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: they asked. They were like, they're gonna come on as

458
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: a sponsor, and I was like, great, I love that.

459
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well nobody asked me, but I'm on board too.

460
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: They did ask you approved it? Oh yeah, okay, I

461
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: do remember, I do remember. Okay, You're right, all right,

462
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: So you were talking about things getting really crazy. Uh.

463
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 1: They had managed to keep this quiet that she was

464
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: falsely arrested and basically stuck in a mental hospital that

465
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: did not get out. She got out, she went home.

466
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: Uh Walter. At this point, fake Walter is kept in

467
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: Juvie as a ward of the state. And there was

468
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: another kid in Juvie, a fifteen year old named Sanford Clark,

469
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: who had quite a story to share in that right. Yeah.

470
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: So Sanford Clark is the nephew of a guy named

471
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: Gordon Stewart North Coop, and um Sandford says he wants

472
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 1: to speak to the cops because he wants to say

473
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: that he has been forced to participate in the murder

474
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: of a number of little boys, and that one of

475
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: those little boys was the boy who was in all

476
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: the newspapers, Walter Collins. So you can just like if

477
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: I guess, they had gramophones back then, so you just

478
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: hear the needle scratch on the gramophone at the right.

479
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: So at this point in the story, the evil police

480
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: Captain Jones is put on that murder case and he's

481
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: in a position where he's on this new case. This

482
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: boy says that Walter Collins was murdered, but he had

483
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: just you know, stuck Christine Collins in a mental ward

484
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: for a week. So he starts lying even more and

485
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: told reporters that Christine Collins just told me a day

486
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: before that she didn't think Walter was her son, that

487
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: was a fake Walter, when it was actually a week earlier.

488
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: And so he was just again just digging holes here

489
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: with these lies. And they also said the reporters said, sir, sir, okay,

490
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: where's where's Christine Collins? We want to talk to her,

491
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: And he's like, oh, well, she's at the County hospital

492
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: for observation. She obviously had you know, she took it

493
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: really hard when she heard that her her son had

494
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: been you know, was a murder victim. So we put

495
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: her in there yesterday and she'd already been in there

496
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: for six days. So, um, the question was raised just

497
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: immediately if Walter Collins was was killed um by Gordon

498
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: Northcott and with an assist by his nephew Sanford Clark. Um,

499
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: who was this little kid who was saying he was

500
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: Walter Collins and everybody else was saying, yes, he's Walter Collins.

501
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: And that was a pretty interesting story in and of itself,

502
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: for sure. Why don't we take a break? And now

503
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: you're so mean? Who fake Walter is right after this? Alright, late,

504
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: honest fake Walter Chuck was drummer? Will please Arthur Hutchins Jr.

505
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: That was a Michael Scott reference joke, it was. Uh.

506
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: So here was Arthur's story. In June, which was the

507
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: summer before the disappearance of Walter, Arthur ran away from

508
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: home in Illinois. Uh. He had a bad step mom,

509
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: he had a dad that wouldn't do anything about it.

510
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: Just not a good home situation. And he was a

511
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: you know, it was the time in America when a

512
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: twelve year old was also like a full grown adult

513
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: that they wanted to be. So he kind of took

514
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: off on the road. He worked jobs, he hitchhiked, and

515
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: it gets old dodgy about what exactly happened. Uh. In

516
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: the movie, he basically levied a charge against the police,

517
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: saying like this was their idea, Like they kind of

518
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: picked me up and told me to pretend I was

519
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: this kid. Other people say that he hatched the plan.

520
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: He always want to go to l A to meet

521
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: Tom Mix, the Cowboy movie star, Silent Error movie star,

522
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: So like he saw this kid was missing, so he

523
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: hatched the idea himself. Other people say that they picked

524
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: him up in the cab Illinois. The police did, and

525
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: when they were um talking to him might have mentioned Walter,

526
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: and the kid had the idea from there. I don't know. Yeah,

527
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: either way, this kid saw his chance for a free

528
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: one way ticket to Hollywood and his cowboy hero Tom Mix,

529
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: and he took it. Um. He styled himself, we should say,

530
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: as a boy adventurer. So that was like kind of

531
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: the mindset this kid had totally lost on him. From

532
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: you know what, I can tell the gravity of what

533
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: he was doing to Christine Collins, that that he was

534
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: perpetrating knew it was perpetrating a fraud, But it seems

535
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: like he considered it harmless. And it wasn't until it

536
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: was pointed out like do you understand what you've done

537
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: to this this poor woman that that he was like, yeah,

538
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: I guess I owe or an apology or something like that.

539
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: It just didn't occur to him. Um, however you want characterized,

540
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: he was a bad kid or thoughtless or careless or whatever.

541
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: But um, he finally gets He finally confesses and apparently

542
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: put up a fight too. That it wasn't until they

543
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: had um a proof that his handwriting didn't match Walters

544
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: that they finally and the cops, by the way, finally said,

545
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: you're not Walter kid. You make different rs here. Apparently

546
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: the way that he wrote ours was in a way

547
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: that was in Illinois. But you couldn't find that kind

548
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: of our teaching anywhere in California. The old Illinois are

549
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: that's right. They had him dead to rights and he

550
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: finally confesses and tells them all this that he's he's

551
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: a little Arthur Hutchins Jr. So he gets reunited with

552
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: his family. Um, but then that leaves us back at

553
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: square one. Walter is still missing, and then now there's

554
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: Sanford Clark, who was saying that Walter is actually not missing.

555
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: Walter is dead because my uncle and I, against my will,

556
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: killed Walter among some other boys. That's where we're at

557
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: with Christine. Yeah, I mean the story of Sanford Clark

558
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: is equally sad. He he did participate in these crimes,

559
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: but he was uh, he was there getting sexually abused,

560
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: physically abused, emotionally abused, was told that he would be

561
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: killed if he didn't help out. So this is a

562
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: kid who um who, who didn't know what he was

563
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: doing and fortunate into doing these things. He's also a

564
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: victim here. So at this point in the story, it

565
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: could have been the end, Like Christine could have said,

566
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: my son is dead, the boy fake Walter is gone

567
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: back to his family. I'm a woman, It's what recourse

568
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: do I have. But to her credit, she stood strong

569
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: and said, no, I'm not taking this. Uh. Not only

570
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: am I not convinced that Walter's dead, but that aside,

571
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: I need to tell I need to expose my treatment

572
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: and I need to expose Captain Jones and the l

573
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: A p D. And so I'm going to come forward

574
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: with his information. Yeah, which she did. So remember like

575
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: by this time, the press had no idea what had

576
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: happened to her, and she just dropped this this truth

577
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: bomb on him, saying, so the l a p D

578
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: heard from me for a long time that this was

579
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 1: not my kid, and not only told me it was,

580
00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: they institutionalized me against my will. Told the presser story. Um,

581
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: with the help of apparently local women's leagues took up

582
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,240
Speaker 1: her cause. And then so did Reverend Gustav Brieglib who's

583
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: played by Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich in the in the movie.

584
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: I think he got involved way earlier in the movie

585
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: than he did in real life. Yeah, yeah, but he

586
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: helped publicize her. He was an anti l a p

587
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: D corruption crusader, um and this is a great example

588
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: of the corruption and incompetence of the l a p D. UM,

589
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: And he helped take up her story and publicize it.

590
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 1: But um, she probably thought that was going to be enough,

591
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: because the county convened a grand jury and they heard

592
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: her testimony and they didn't even bother calling Captain Jones

593
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: to testify. They just basically gave her a chance to

594
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 1: tell her story and then hope that it would go away,

595
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: and they demonstrated that they hoped it would go away

596
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: because they referred the matter to the Police Commission to

597
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: handle itself. That's right, the commission said no disciplinary action

598
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: against Captain Jones. Arthur Hudgins fooled everybody, um and Dave

599
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: points out like, yeah, except for mom who was screaming

600
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: the whole time that this is not my kid. So

601
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: that was such a flimsy argument to to not do

602
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: anything to Captain Jones. And this could have been the

603
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: end of the story. And Christine Jones was what met

604
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 1: with another brick wall. But no, she said, huh, I'm

605
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: going to hire a lawyer and I'm gonna sue the

606
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: l A. P D And Captain Jones for false imprisonment.

607
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: It made all the news. Sued for a half a

608
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,439
Speaker 1: million bucks, and again the reverend in the Women's league

609
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: got you know, press going and got everyone whipped up

610
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 1: into a frenzy about it and got a lot of support,

611
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: and the l A. County opened up a grand jury investigation. Again,

612
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: the city Council Welfare Committee recommended that Jones and police

613
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: chief resign. That didn't happen. He ended up getting a

614
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 1: four month suspension without pay. And Uh, the civil suit

615
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: did make it to court and she won, but uh

616
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: was never paid a dime, which is what happens in

617
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 1: a lot of cases. Yeah, and she kept she she

618
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: kept doggedly pursuing Captain Jones for decades. She would drag

619
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: him to court every once in a while, and um,

620
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: have a judge say you have to pay her, and

621
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 1: Captain Jones would be like, I don't have any money,

622
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: can't get blood from a stone, sorry, and she she has.

623
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: She never got a penny out of him, Uh, despite

624
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: being owed about a hundred and eighty grand in today's

625
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 1: money ten hundred dollars back then, which is just so infuriating.

626
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: But at the very least she was like, Okay, if

627
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: you're not gonna pay me, I'm not I'm just not

628
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 1: gonna drop it. At least I'm still going to drag

629
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: you to court whenever I can to make you have

630
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: to talk about this again. Um. And so uh, apparently Christine,

631
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: like you said, she did not believe, don't you want

632
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 1: to say? Apparently she definitely did not believe that Walter

633
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: was killed um by Gordon Stewart Northcott and Gordon Stewart

634
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: Northcott turned out to be a serial murderer, and his

635
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: murders are called the Wineville Chicken Coop murders because apparently

636
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: the actual murders took place with an axe in the

637
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: chicken coop on this remote ranch about an hour east

638
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: of Los Angeles. Um and Sandford Clark was there, but

639
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 1: also too, and this isn't portrayed in the movie. Gordon's mother,

640
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: Sarah Louise Northcott, was also an active participant in all

641
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 1: this too, which makes the whole thing about a hundred

642
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: million times more horrific than it would have been had

643
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: she not been involved. Frankly, Yeah, now it's like a

644
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: Texas chainsaw mask. Her family, Uh, living out in the

645
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: Sticks at the time, it was the Sticks east of

646
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 1: Los Angeles. Now, like everything else in the south Land,

647
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: it's just one continuous suburb. Back then it was just farmland.

648
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: And uh, these you know, he could have murdered up

649
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: to twenty kids. We'll talk a little bit more about

650
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: the case, but um, he sexually abused these boys. He

651
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: kept them in the chicken coop. Um. He originally lived

652
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: not too far from the Collins Is And what started

653
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: here was this weird game between uh north Cut, his

654
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: mom and Um and Christine of him telling her like

655
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 1: he's dead. That had been him saying I didn't kill him,

656
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: and then him saying well I did kill him, and

657
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: then him saying no, I didn't, and then the mom

658
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 1: saying well, no, I killed him, and then the mom

659
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: saying no, I didn't. And I just can't imagine after

660
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: all Christine Collins has been through, Like how upsetting it

661
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: was to go through this emotional roller coaster still of

662
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: them admitting and then recanting their murder. Yeah, and even

663
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: worse than that, Gordon Northcott UM represented himself in court

664
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: and he called Christine Collins as a character as a

665
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: defense witness and said, UM put her on the stand

666
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: and said do you think I killed your son? And

667
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: she was like, no, actually I don't. And she produced

668
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: a piece of evidence that had been left out of

669
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: the papers that a few days after um Walter went missing,

670
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: someone threw a rock through her window and on the

671
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: rock or attached to the rock, it's not clear to me.

672
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: Um something said uh boy bad sick, afraid to call doctor,

673
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: And to her that meant that somebody had abducted Walter,

674
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: but it just wasn't. Gordon Northcott. Yeah, that's A. I

675
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: still don't know what to make of that one. I

676
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 1: don't either, But what Christine made of it is that

677
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: Gordon Northcott did not kill her boy, that he had

678
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: been abducted by somebody else in that to her, he

679
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: was still out there. And she was so either convinced

680
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: of this or wanted to believe it so badly that

681
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: she went on to the stand to this serial murderers

682
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: trial and acted as a witness in his defense. Um.

683
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: And in the end, it didn't it didn't work. Um.

684
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: Gordon Northcott was convicted of killing a handful of boys,

685
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: multiple boys. But it's I think you said before Sanford

686
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: Clark said maybe as many as twenty boys that I

687
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: think he was convicted of four and the mom was

688
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: convicted of killing Walter specifically. But yeah, the boys said

689
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: that you know, there's uh twenty bodies buried, which wasn't

690
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: exactly true because they burned a lot of the bodies. Uh.

691
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: There ended up being bones and evidence though there was enough,

692
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: like they found letters written by two of the boys

693
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: that he was accused of murdering Um that was written

694
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: by them to their parents that were that never went um,

695
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: that were never sent um. But they they um they

696
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: got enough of evidence at least against Gordon to convictim,

697
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: and then apparently he was all circumstantial against his mother,

698
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: but she was convicted any away, and so Gordon was

699
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: sentenced to hang. His mother was sentenced to life in prison,

700
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 1: and a couple of days before he um was executed,

701
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: Gordon sent a telegram to Christine Collins and said, um,

702
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: I lied about uh not killing your boy. If you'll

703
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: come visit me in prison before I'm executed, I'll tell

704
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: you the truth. Okay. So remember, she thinks she's testified

705
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: at his trial that he didn't do it, that this

706
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: terrible person had not killed her son, and now he

707
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: sent her a telegram two days before he died saying

708
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: he did. So of course, she goes to San Quentin,

709
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: meets with him, and he says, I don't want to

710
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: meet with you. Um, I didn't have anything to do

711
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: with your boy. Go away. Yeah. I mean, I just

712
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: can't imagine her mental state at this point of being

713
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: jerked around by the cops for all that time and

714
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: now being jerked around by this guy on death row.

715
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: Just I don't know if he was just sick and

716
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: like toying with her or that sort of prisoner thing.

717
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: I feel like I've seen this in movies before, where

718
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: they do something like this just to like have one

719
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: last meeting with somebody before they die. That isn't a

720
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: prison guard. Everybody loves a good meeting. But he was

721
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: hanged right in front of her face. Apparently, Yeah, she

722
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: stuck around. I guess the warden was like, he did,

723
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: what to you listen if you want to stick around

724
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: and witness his death too. And apparently she did not

725
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: out of vengeance necessarily, but um, because she was she

726
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: was hoping that at the at some point before he died,

727
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 1: he would tell her the truth or tell her something.

728
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: And he didn't. He went like a schmo because he

729
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: was a schmo. He was a terrible child murdering schmo. Um.

730
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: And so Gordon Northcott is executed. And these these Wineville

731
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 1: Chicken Coop murders are so notorious and so disgusting, um

732
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: as child murders tend to be. That the the town

733
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: changed its name a couple of months after Gordon Northcott

734
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 1: was executed to mirror Loma. It's what it's called today. Yeah,

735
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: Like just drive east from Los Angeles, you'll hit it.

736
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 1: They didn't like that name anymore. Change the name. Uh

737
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: here's where the what what you missed at the end

738
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: of the movie. And I think this was created out

739
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: of whole cloth to give everyone like a good feeling

740
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: in their tom toms uh in the movie version. And

741
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: if you don't want to hear this, you stop listening

742
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: right now. Give you a plenty of warning. Uh. So

743
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: this part we know it's true. Uh it was how

744
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 1: many months later did another boy show up that said

745
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: that he had escaped from I heard five years Oh?

746
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: Was it five years later? All right? So in the

747
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 1: movie they squashed that down. So that's obviously licensed dramatic license.

748
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: But I think the true story is that this boy

749
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: just said that he had been a kidnapping victim of

750
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: north Cut but got out. Didn't that right? Wasn't that

751
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 1: kind of the end of it. I don't know. I

752
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: saw that that a kid had been who had who

753
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: north Cut had been accused of killing, turned up safe

754
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: and sound five years later, and that gave her hope. Yeah,

755
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: that gave her hope for the rest of her life.

756
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: She died in I think nineteen sixty four and apparently

757
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: was looking for Walter the whole time. So in the

758
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: movie version, and this is clearly dramatic license, the story

759
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: the boy tells is that there was a late night

760
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: escape after they dislodged the wire of the chicken coop,

761
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: and that he had gotten stuck, and that Walter had

762
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: had already run away and came back and saved him.

763
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: And if it hadn't have been for Walter, he never

764
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: would have gotten out of there. So in the movie version,

765
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: obviously felt the need Old Clint felt the need to

766
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: paint Walter or whoever that screenwriter was to uh as

767
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: a as a hero in the end who gave his

768
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: life to help this other boy get saved, which like,

769
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: you don't even need to do that. It was so aggravating, No,

770
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: it really is. The writers like, how am I going

771
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: to get out of this? So that's it. One little

772
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: footnote of this. If you didn't think Christine Collins had

773
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: it hard enough, um this whole time, at the peak

774
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 1: of this stuff, at the at some of the worst

775
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 1: parts of it. Um, her husband remembers in prison the

776
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: whole time. And so she's petitioning the parole board. Actually

777
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: has friends. There's record of a friend writing the pearole

778
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: board talking about what a terrible state Christine is in

779
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: and what you please let her husband out so at

780
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 1: the very least he can go to work to support

781
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 1: her because she can't work anymore. Um. And the Pearl

782
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,240
Speaker 1: Board wrote back in the movie version and said, we're sorry,

783
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: but Walter Collins died in prison in N two. Very

784
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: interesting and sad. So you got anything else about the

785
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: sad story of Christine and Walter Collins? No, it is,

786
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: Uh boy, it's a lesson in in uh hard lesson

787
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: in gas lighting and and what still happens, but what

788
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: definitely stoppened a lot more back then. Yeah, heavy stuff man.

789
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: Uh well, since Chuck said it used to happen a

790
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: lot more back then, followed by heavy stuff. As everyone

791
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: who listens to the podcast knows, that means it's time

792
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: for a listener mail. I'm gonna call this rewolving follow up.

793
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: Hey guys, long time listener. Really interesting episode and rewilding.

794
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: I'm glad you got the point across at the end,

795
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: goal to let nature do its thing, but the humans

796
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 1: have messed things up so much in places that sometimes

797
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: we need to give it a little helping hand to

798
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: help it along its way before stepping back and giving

799
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: its space. Right. You mentioned that we tend to be

800
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: very short time frame focus, but there is a distinction

801
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 1: between cultures. Many indigenous cultures have a mindset that focuses

802
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 1: on much longer time frames. The specific practices in place

803
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: for thinking of future generations. I believe one is to

804
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: think about things for seven generations time. Getting indigenous cultures

805
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: involved in projects and stewardship of the land serves to

806
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: gain wisdom from cultures that have been living harmoniously with

807
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: nature for generations. Plus brings in the mindset of thinking

808
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: for generations to come, not even mentioning the ethical reasons

809
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: for involving them. That is from Paul uh with the

810
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: question mark. Now, that is from Paul who was the

811
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: chief technology officer at Massy Earth, helping to rewild our planet.

812
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: So wow, go to the Mossy Earth website and check

813
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: it out. See what they're up to. Yeah, but I

814
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: mean we got one from like a legit insider. That's great,

815
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 1: I think so, and that is a massy dot Earth. Cool.

816
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: How do you get a dot earth website? Uh? You

817
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: pay through the wazoo, use a lot of donations. I

818
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,919
Speaker 1: want to be Josh and Chuck dot Earth. Yeah, that'd

819
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: be good. I was thinking Josh and Chuck dot biz,

820
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: but sure that one works too. About dot earth biz.

821
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: So thanks a lot, Paul. We really appreciate you, uh

822
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: you writing to us, and if you want to be

823
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: like Paul, you can send us an email to stuff podcast. Man.

824
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to get it after we're done at i

825
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: heart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a

826
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio,

827
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

828
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. H