1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: On a recent afternoon here in our newsroom in San Francisco, Sarah, 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: can I ambush you for two seconds? I walked around 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: with a mic and I asked everyone about their online 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: shopping habits. I was wondering, if you buy things online? 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: I do. I buy most of my stuff online these days. Yeah. Um, 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: we just recently started using Amazon Prime for all of 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: our grocery deliveries. It's so much easier considering we have 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: a baby at home and can rarely leave the house. Specifically, 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: I was curious if people have thought about the carbon 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: emissions from all their deliveries. Have you ever worried about 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: like the environmental impact we do? Actually? Yeah, there was. 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: There was an interesting discussion in our neighborhoods next door 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: and if they felt guilty about it? Yeah? What do you? 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: What do you think? What do you do about that concern? Um? Um, 15 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: I planted tree every time. I'm just joking. How how 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: many deliveries would you estimate you get a week? Or 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: mom three to five a week? Oh, that's quite a bit. 18 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: We get a lot. Yeah, my wife probably does more. Actually, 19 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: my wife definitely does more shopping than I do. But 20 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: but I do a little bit and have you guys 21 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: worried about the carbon emissions of all this? Yeah, totally, totally. 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: We worry about it a lot, but not enough to 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: like stop just like we're total hypocrites. Total hypocrites. That 24 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: you just heard is our executive editor, Tom Giles, and 25 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: I think the sentiment he expressed is familiar to a 26 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: lot of us. Amazon makes billions of shipments a year 27 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: involving planes and ships, trucks and cars that emit a 28 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: lot of carbon dioxide. Today in the show, we're taking 29 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: you inside a group of Amazon employees who, unlike me 30 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: and Tom, actually did something about their concern. Abandoned together 31 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: and they try to publicly pressure their employer to do 32 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: more to fight climate change. And with the help of 33 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: a professor who studied this very issue, we'll less to 34 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: see if getting everything delivered to us could eventually, with 35 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: the right decisions, become a good thing for the environment. 36 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: I'm Akio. You're listening to Decrypted stay with us, So, Spencer, 37 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: can you introduce yourself. I'm Spencer Soaper and I'm a 38 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: technology reporter with Bloomberg. You know, Spencer, you've been covering 39 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: Amazon for many years now. When did this issue of 40 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: the environment start popping up in your reporting. Amazon's environmental 41 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: impact has been an issue since I started here covering Amazon. 42 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: It's environmental effects have always been top of mind because 43 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,679 Speaker 1: everyone gets packages from Amazon and sometimes they come in 44 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: very big boxes, and there have always been concerns about waste. 45 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: This issue, whether it's waste or the carbon emissions, has 46 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: it been a long standing concern for the people who 47 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: work at Amazon. Yes, so people who work at Amazon 48 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: have been worried about this for for a number of years, 49 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: and it seems like it's been an issue that's kind 50 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: of come up here and there, and so people have 51 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: done things like right six page papers on Amazon's environmental impacts, 52 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: hoping to get the company to do a little more, 53 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: or they've presented ideas at these think Big events where 54 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: Amazon tries to get employees to share their big ideas 55 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: things that can guide their business into the future, and 56 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: nothing really accomplished anything. So in two thousand eighteen, a 57 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: group of employees started looking at it more seriously, and 58 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: a galvanizing moment at that time was when they started 59 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: looking at what other companies were doing, companies like DHL 60 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: or Google, and they learned that Amazon was falling pretty 61 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: far shy of its competitors in terms of being proactive 62 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: about its environmental impacts. So that coalesced in the employees 63 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: getting together to file a shareholder resolution. For our listeners 64 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: who don't know, what is the shareholder resolution? So Amazon 65 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 1: employees also are shareholders, and shareholder resolution is a process 66 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: by which anyone who owns shares of a company can 67 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: present an idea to officially be voted on by other 68 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: shareholders to basically send a message to the company what's 69 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: important to the people who own the company. We should 70 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: note that a shareholder resolution is non binding. Right, It's 71 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: basically kind of a way to shame a company's executives. 72 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: I guess it's a way to apply public pressure. Yes, 73 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: definitely a way to apply public pressure and call attention 74 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: to an issue. Seeing it on other things like gender diversity, 75 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: the and and racial diversity, those sorts of things. What 76 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: did this particular resolution call for? It was pretty broad, 77 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: but it basically called on Amazon to create a comprehensive 78 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: plan to take more steps to address climate change and 79 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: to reduce its effects on climate change. Okay, so a 80 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: group of Amazon employees decided to very publicly call for 81 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: Amazon to do more to fight climate change. What happens next? 82 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: So a shareholder resolution coming from Amazon employees is extremely rare. 83 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: They tend to keep problems within the family and don't 84 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: discuss them publicly. And then afterward, Emily Cunningham, who is 85 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: promoting this effort employee effort within Amazon, sent an email 86 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: to her colleagues trying to explain herself like, this is 87 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: why climate change is important to me, and this is 88 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: why I felt it was important to present this resolution, 89 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: and she asked any colleagues who felt similarly to to 90 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: join her and signing the resolution. And one of her 91 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: colleagues who got that email was Marin Costa. My name 92 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: is Marin Costa and my title is Principal User Experience Designer. 93 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: So Marin is a UX designer who has been working 94 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: at Amazon for several years. She's a mother, and she's 95 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: concerned about the environment, especially Amazon's impact on the environment, 96 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: and it's something that she's felt personally conflicted about herself. 97 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: So when the email arrived in her inbox, this was 98 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: an issue she immediately wanted to get involved with. And 99 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: I wrote back immediately and just said, oh my god, 100 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: this is amazing. I've been sitting here by myself feeling 101 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: frustrated and futile, so I immediately signed. So they filed 102 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: the shareholder resolution in December, and it immediately got the 103 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: attention of Amazon senior management. And in January, the employees 104 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: meet with Amazon senior leadership. We asked them to release 105 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: data about our carbon footprint. We asked them for a 106 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: date on when we would be carbon renewable energy, and 107 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: they refused to give both. But they did agree in 108 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: that initial meeting not to challenge are resolution and allow 109 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: it to go on the ballot for a vote. Online 110 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: retail giant Amazon plans to make half of its shipments 111 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: carbon neutral by and then in February, Amazon announced Amazon 112 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: Shipment Zero, which is this pledge to reduce carbon emissions 113 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: with a goal of reducing them by by. Amazon employees 114 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: thought this was obviously an effort to try to appease 115 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: appease them and recognize concerns about Amazon's carbon footprint. What's 116 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: kind of the group's reaction to Project zero? More sweeping 117 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: the floors while the house is burning, down a bucket 118 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: of water on a forest fire, you know, rearranging Digerison Titanic, 119 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: whatever you want to say, It's not enough, we need 120 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: a date. We're still behind. We're still away behind. So 121 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: shortly after that announcement, the Amazon employees are once again 122 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: called into a meeting with Amazon leadership and they were 123 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: asked if they'd be willing to withdraw their proposal since 124 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: Amazon was now moving in their direction of addressing climate change. 125 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: So we said we wouldn't withdraw unless we could get 126 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: a date. We still didn't have a date by when 127 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: we would be renewable. That's something that was important to 128 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: employees was just like, okay, let's just pose this question 129 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: and force a vote on it. So that said, everyone 130 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: has to go on record on on where they stand. 131 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: So Amazon has its annual shareholder meeting in May. It 132 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: does it in Seattle, and there's always a smorgas board 133 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: of protesters. They're airing grievances about Amazon. The big edition 134 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: this year were the employee Climate Change A protesters, And 135 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: so you had this large contingent of Amazon employees. Um 136 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: they were dressed in white T shirts to show solidarity. 137 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: They had signs and things calling for Amazon to dress 138 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: climate change. And a big difference was because many of 139 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,359 Speaker 1: these Amazon employees are actual shareholders, is that these protesters 140 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: got into the room. This meeting, Emily Cunningham will now 141 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: introduce a shareholder proposal over costing a report from Climate 142 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 1: Change Times. One of the employees stood up Emily Cunningham 143 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: and she actually, like it was kind of dramatic moment, 144 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: actually called uh for Jeff Bezos to come out and 145 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: hear her speak before I started my time. I liked 146 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,599 Speaker 1: for Jeff Bezos to come out on stage so that 147 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: I can kids directly. He did not. He was still 148 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: in the in the back. He comes out and gives 149 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: like a presentation, but he's not there for the entire 150 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: shareholder meeting. Well, he began hearing this speech. I assume 151 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: so and memory I've worked at Amazon the last and 152 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 1: she basically laid out the employee's concerns and why they 153 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: were proposing this this petition. Emily asked the Amazon employees 154 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: that were there to stand up, but also many other people, 155 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: just non employees, just shareholders stood up in support. Some 156 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: people were even crying, you know, it was it was 157 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: really it was a really powerful moment. So the shareholder 158 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: proposal went down. It gained about support from Amazon shareholders, 159 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: which wasn't sufficient, but it was still a pretty big number. 160 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: And it really encouraged the employees that they were able 161 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: to reach such a high water mark in terms of support. 162 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: Does want to three? So after the vote, the meeting 163 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: room clears out and the employ he's basically you know, 164 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: grouped together standing beneath one of their banners, and they 165 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: spoke to the to the media. Without bold, rapid action, 166 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: we will lose our only chance to avoid catastrophic warming. 167 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: There's no issue more important to our customers or our 168 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: world than the climate crisis, and we are falling far short. 169 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: Jeff Bezels. Can you see children who might have drowned, 170 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: towns thriving that might have burned, species swimming that might 171 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: have been lost forever? How will we tell our children? 172 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: Do you feel like Marin and her group were able 173 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: to accomplish something that people before weren't able to accomplish? Yes, 174 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: I mean they were able to demonstrate that there's a 175 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: significant movement within the company that a lot of people 176 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: are are uncomfortable. We have a tight labor market. A 177 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: lot of these jobs are extremely hard for companies like 178 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: Amazon to find people for and higher than for. And 179 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: so if people feel like there are other companies where 180 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: they can work and feel more comfortable about their place 181 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: in society. If that company is doing more to protect 182 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: the environment, they can very easily jump ship and go 183 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: to those jobs. So this is something that Amazon has 184 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: consider from a an employee retention standpoint, which is which 185 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: is extremely important for for the tech industry. We'll be 186 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: right back, Okay, So before the break, we heard about 187 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: a group of Amazon employees who are pressuring their company 188 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: into doing better for the planet. And I guess that 189 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: begs the question how bad is Amazon? Because the alternative 190 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: to Amazon and to e commerce more broadly, is all 191 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: of us driving individually to the store, and that's also 192 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: bad for the planet. And to answer that question, Spencer, 193 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: you talked to an expert. Yes, I met with Anne 194 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: good Child. She's a professor at the University of Washington 195 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: UH in Amazon's hometown of Seattle. So that's the last 196 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: thing what I'm on. Mm hm, So I think cat 197 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: callers cat call Yeah, so we have these two cats. Yeah. 198 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: The callers call from Ontario. And it's interesting because this 199 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: project for her began as a question that probably a 200 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: lot of other people have asked themselves. I think we 201 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: started in it was actually a couple of studies, A 202 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: grad student and I were both using grocery delivery services 203 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: and just had a personal interest in trying to understand 204 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: what that meant for transport to an emissions. It started 205 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: from her guilty conscience, like the rest of us. Yeah, exactly, 206 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: the guilty conscious and a question. And the question was 207 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: a good one because theoretically shopping on Amazon could be 208 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: a good thing. If you live on a cul de 209 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: sac with twenty homes, and all of those people go 210 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: to the supermarket once a week, maybe they go to 211 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: Costco twice a month, and you you add up all 212 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: of those vehicle trips. If you could replace all of 213 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: those vehicle trips with one weekly truck trip through the 214 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: neighborhood to all of those homes delivering all of those things, 215 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: then you're actually burning less fossil fuel. Then that's a 216 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: that's a more efficient way to get the products to 217 00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: those people. Our existing model is not very efficient an 218 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: energy or traffic standpoint. If if that basic model is 219 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: you get in the car, you drive to the store, 220 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: and you drive home again, that's not hard to beat. Sometimes, 221 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: get in your car, drive the person you store, drive home, 222 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: realize you forgot something to drive back, drive home. Yes, 223 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: especially Yeah, I was going to make fun of my husband, 224 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: but I shouldn't do that. Go ahead ahead. So there 225 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: is a possibility that by utilizing e commerce more, you're 226 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: actually helping the planet. That's the theory. In practice, the 227 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: exact opposite happens. So there's many things that erode the 228 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: benefits of that sort of idealized delivery service concept. One 229 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: of those is that you have multiple players. So if 230 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: we have three or four companies doing a similar thing, 231 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: so you have four different trucks in your neighborhood instead 232 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: of potentially one. Another one is this idea of really 233 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: fast delivery times. So if you're delivering and you do 234 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: it once a week versus if you do it every day, 235 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: you can squish more stuff into a bigger truck and 236 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: have a lower cost and lower carbon oxide footprint. So 237 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: that pressure to deliver more quickly is also eroding the 238 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: potential benefits. And and we're talking about just carbon emissions 239 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: from the transportation right. It doesn't include things like packaging. Yeah, 240 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: we're not even talking about packaging now. We're simply talking 241 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: about the consumption of fossil fuels. So the way we're 242 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: moving suggests that we're actually not you know, capturing those 243 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: consolidation benefits of a delivery service. And I'm sure that 244 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: right now we have increased travel demand through online chopping 245 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: and delivery services. Alright, So what's the bottom line if 246 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: you were to think of right now? Is it all 247 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: of these companies that are bringing stuff to you versus 248 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: you go into the store. Is it better for the environment, 249 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: worse for the environment, or a wash? It's worse for 250 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: the environment. For Yeah, sus to remember how I went 251 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: around our office and made everyone feel bad about their 252 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: online shopping. Yeah, they all loved you for that, you know, 253 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: given what and told us it sounds like we should 254 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: indeed feel bad about it, that the nagging guilt we 255 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: feel is actually warranted. Yeah, it's warranted, and especially if 256 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: you shop very frequently, you should feel even worse if 257 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: we're unwilling to forego the convenience. Despite all of this, 258 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: is there anything we can do to minimize our impact 259 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: on the environment. Yes, so you couldn't be a mindful 260 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: online shopper, and the main step would be to consolidate 261 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: your orders. Maybe rather than having several individual packages come 262 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 1: to your door through the week, if you can load 263 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: up your cart and make one order each week. That's 264 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: the kind of thing individual consumers can do to decrease 265 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: the environmental impact. Let's say Jeff Bezos wakes up tomorrow, 266 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: he says, yes, employees, I I heard you loud and clearer, 267 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: and we're going to take this issue head on. What 268 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: are what are some changes Amazon could make right now 269 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: to soften it's it's uh impact. So I think one 270 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: thing they have to do is think about, you know, 271 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: the incentives that they're currently using, which are are pretty 272 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: bread and butter for their business strategy, are also encouraging 273 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: people to to use these delivery services without much consciousness? Um, 274 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: it's very easy to You're almost encouraged right to use 275 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: the services that way and not really feel like you're 276 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: paying for them by now get it now, get it tomorrow, 277 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: get it today, and it's like the default. I think 278 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: the fastest free one. There needs to be some intentional 279 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: thought in, you know, are we encouraging people to to 280 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: use fast and frequent deliveries? So is Amazon moving in 281 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: that direction? So? Um? Amazon announced at the end of 282 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: the first quarter that they'd be spending money on one 283 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: day shipping. They definitely are feeling the pressure from from 284 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: stores and a lot of these other options people have 285 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: where you can order something online from say Walmart or 286 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: Target and then go and pick it up at the 287 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: store that day. And so in an earnings call in July, 288 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: analysts are very interested to know, Hey, what's going on 289 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: with next day delivery? Can you give us any updates? 290 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: And the CFO, Brianosovski, actually said that it's going very well. 291 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: It did cost a little bit more, but what they're 292 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: finding is by narrowing the delivery promise to one day, 293 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: they're picking up a lot more sales. That that people 294 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: are are more engaged and they're willing to buy more 295 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,239 Speaker 1: things on Amazon. But given everything that Anne told us, 296 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: one day shipping is exactly the opposite of what Amazon 297 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: should be doing if it really cared about the environment. Yeah, 298 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: a one day delivery pledge for the last minute need 299 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: is going to make the shopping habits probably only get 300 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: only get worse for the environment. The spencer. What does 301 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: Amazon say about all this? Well, Amazon says that reducing 302 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: the human impacts of climate change is important to the 303 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: company and they have teams dedicated to it. They actually 304 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: mentioned one project they're working on where they're trying to 305 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: develop scientific models to map the carbon footprint and look 306 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: for opportunities to reduce it. They also said that they're 307 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: going to release more information about their company wide carbon 308 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: footprint and their goals and programs later this year. Spencer, 309 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: by the way, is Amazon doing anything to reduce the 310 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: packaging waste from all their deliveries, things like the cardboard boxes, 311 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: because it seems like that's the thing that everyone's concerned about. Yeah, 312 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: and it can be inconvenient too, and that stuff piles up. 313 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: They do have technology and their warehouses that tries to 314 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: optimize the size of the box for the package, but 315 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: you still hear from people who, you know, order a 316 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: set of headphones and end up with, you know, a 317 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,479 Speaker 1: box the size of the trunk of a car. M hm. 318 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: And what's next for Marin and her group Well, even 319 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: though their shareholder resolution went down in the spring, the 320 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: Amazon employees continue to meet and are still active on 321 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: this issue. They actually have a planned walkout coming up 322 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: on September twenty. More than employees are planning to leave 323 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: their jobs at Amazon for the day. This would be 324 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: both in Seattle and around the world, and this is 325 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: for them to participate in what's known as a global 326 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: climate strike where people at various companies and various countries 327 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: are urging one another to show solidarity on the issue 328 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: of climate change by by walking out of work on 329 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: that day. Spencer Soper, thanks for the story today. Thanks 330 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: m Decrypted is produced by me Aki Ito and Ethan Brooks. 331 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: Emily Buso and Anne vander May are story editors. Francesca 332 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: Levie is the head of Bloomberg podcast We'll see you 333 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: next week.