1
00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:02,080
Speaker 1: Trust me?

2
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:03,720
Speaker 2: Do you trust me?

3
00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:05,720
Speaker 1: Right? Ever lead you a story?

4
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,280
Speaker 2: Trust? This is the truth, the only truth.

5
00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,360
Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

6
00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,480
Speaker 3: welcome to trust me. The podcast about Colts extreme belief

7
00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,360
Speaker 3: manipulation from two unfortunately straight women who've actually experienced it.

8
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,040
Speaker 1: I'm Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.

9
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,960
Speaker 3: Today our guest is Aaron Goldenberg, comedian, performer, and survivor

10
00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,680
Speaker 3: of Bill Gothard's IBLP curriculum as well as conversion therapy.

11
00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:34,879
Speaker 3: Aaron is going to share with us what it was

12
00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,360
Speaker 3: like growing up as a boy with the IBLP homeschool curriculum,

13
00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,479
Speaker 3: how he tried to defend Christianity in public school, and

14
00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,480
Speaker 3: what the religious framework of male dominance was like from

15
00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 3: a male perspective.

16
00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 4: He is an amazing actor and comic. It was so

17
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,040
Speaker 4: cool to talk to him. He's also going to tell

18
00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,040
Speaker 4: us about how his parents discovered he was gay and

19
00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 4: pushed him into conversion therapy and this so called ex

20
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:03,920
Speaker 4: Gay conference led by the now disbanded Exodus International, How

21
00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:08,600
Speaker 4: he pursued celibacy and recovery from his queerness for many years,

22
00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,759
Speaker 4: including almost marrying a woman, and how getting sober forced

23
00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,039
Speaker 4: him to question the teachings of his youth and embrace

24
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:17,119
Speaker 4: his sexuality.

25
00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love I love him. His videos are so funny,

26
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,600
Speaker 3: so talented. Yeah, he's going to be a huge Sorry,

27
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,560
Speaker 3: I agree. I mean he's already halfway there. He's already yeah, yeah,

28
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,160
Speaker 3: I mean, he's going to be on The Hunting Wives,

29
00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,960
Speaker 3: he's going to release a book. He's just he's it's

30
00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:33,880
Speaker 3: all happening. It's also happening.

31
00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,960
Speaker 1: Boo boop boop boop bee boop boop boop.

32
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:44,680
Speaker 3: Cults a good song, Megan before we talk to Aaron.

33
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,920
Speaker 1: Yes, please tell me your culties thing this week?

34
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, this regards the two by two cult that

35
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:57,840
Speaker 4: I was raised in. A person released an article entitled

36
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,760
Speaker 4: Secretive Church under investigation by the FBI holds annual convention

37
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:04,680
Speaker 4: in York, Nebraska.

38
00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,600
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, And it's a article.

39
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:14,000
Speaker 4: That contains, you know, the nine hundred accusations of sexual

40
00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:19,280
Speaker 4: abuse and just some kind of crazy quote. One of

41
00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,959
Speaker 4: the workers actually pointed to the story of Joseph and

42
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,800
Speaker 4: the Bible, claiming Joseph was falsely accused by a woman

43
00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,040
Speaker 4: of trying to get her to lay down with him.

44
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:31,560
Speaker 2: Wow.

45
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:38,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's not a flattering article. And this is

46
00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,680
Speaker 4: when the church gets really deceitful. In my opinion, the

47
00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,200
Speaker 4: person who wrote this article moved jobs.

48
00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,760
Speaker 1: They moved to a different newspaper.

49
00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,600
Speaker 4: So the two y two workers have said that they

50
00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,080
Speaker 4: told so many lies in this article that they were fired.

51
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,720
Speaker 4: So somebody reached out to the editor and to the

52
00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,160
Speaker 4: journalist and they were both like, oh no, I just

53
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,600
Speaker 4: wanted to move to a different city and work at

54
00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,440
Speaker 4: this paper. And then was like, no, he wasn't fired.

55
00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,440
Speaker 4: And it's just so frustrating how this misinformation and these

56
00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,440
Speaker 4: little lies like and we see it with so many

57
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,440
Speaker 4: people in power, just like, no, it wasn't that.

58
00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,320
Speaker 1: It's just justification after justification and.

59
00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,400
Speaker 4: Mass confusion and just like, oh, okay, I guess it

60
00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,320
Speaker 4: is a light like how can write right? You know,

61
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 4: if you are willing to lie, you can just like

62
00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,520
Speaker 4: lean into coincidences and I don't know.

63
00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,840
Speaker 3: I mean, it's always there's always an explanation, and it

64
00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,240
Speaker 3: like yeah, precisely, it doesn't matter if it's real, doesn't

65
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 3: matter as long as it gives people something to ease

66
00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:48,680
Speaker 3: the cognitive dissonance.

67
00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,680
Speaker 1: And it's so frustrating.

68
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,320
Speaker 4: Exactly so yes, if you were experience, which we talk

69
00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,520
Speaker 4: about cognitive dissonance in this episode a lot and a

70
00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,680
Speaker 4: way that I found and like. But people will go

71
00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 4: to extreme lengths to avoid cognitive dissonance, which is one

72
00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,839
Speaker 4: of the most uncomfortable feelings in the human body. And

73
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 4: so yeah, I think a lot of people are just like,

74
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,560
Speaker 4: oh cool, he got fired, this isn't true this and

75
00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:15,200
Speaker 4: just move on.

76
00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,240
Speaker 1: And I hate it. So that's my cultiest thing of

77
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:19,960
Speaker 1: the week. What about you? What's yours?

78
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,080
Speaker 3: Well, I kind of have too, because one is fun

79
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 3: and also a plug for my album that's out.

80
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,800
Speaker 1: It's called Crab Pleaser. Go listen to it.

81
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,479
Speaker 3: First album ever. I did an album release party which

82
00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,120
Speaker 3: you came to Hell Yeah, and everybody did wear white.

83
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,960
Speaker 3: We had a ton of people wearing white, and we

84
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,479
Speaker 3: did have some silly baptisms to go with one of

85
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:46,320
Speaker 3: the songs that is about Believe and Megan actually got

86
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,360
Speaker 3: baptized everybody by my friend Shane.

87
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,760
Speaker 4: I sure did, and I've never I've never been baptized before.

88
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,039
Speaker 4: Shane really looked like he was a church leader. I

89
00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,440
Speaker 4: know how he did that. But yeah, the two by

90
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,520
Speaker 4: twos are very very serious about you never getting baptized

91
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,120
Speaker 4: until you're like old enough to really I think it's

92
00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,920
Speaker 4: like sixteen that is when they let you start doing it.

93
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,080
Speaker 4: And so they don't baptize you as a baby. They

94
00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,680
Speaker 4: don't baptize you after your dad like the Mormons. So

95
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 4: it actually felt like a kind of taboo thing to do.

96
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,480
Speaker 4: But there was just this like performance that you were

97
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,360
Speaker 4: doing where they're like, somebody get baptized, and I was like,

98
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,839
Speaker 4: oh gosh, like this performance needs to go on, and

99
00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,920
Speaker 4: nobody's jumping in the pool. So and where we went,

100
00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,800
Speaker 4: and it did feel like, oh my gosh, why is

101
00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:35,960
Speaker 4: this like taboo?

102
00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:37,120
Speaker 1: Am I gonna get in trouble?

103
00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,719
Speaker 4: And then I was like no, there's so many like

104
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,640
Speaker 4: layers to my you know, once you think you've healed,

105
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,480
Speaker 4: I don't know. But then I'm just gonna say this.

106
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 4: I got baptized at this beautiful fun party I called

107
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,240
Speaker 4: an uber and this actually really nice car came and

108
00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 4: it was.

109
00:05:58,360 --> 00:05:59,560
Speaker 1: Like the windows were down.

110
00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 4: The already was up in the hills kind of near

111
00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,880
Speaker 4: where I live, and it was this really cool, weird

112
00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 4: ride back to my house and I was just like

113
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,480
Speaker 4: very wet and the windows were down.

114
00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 1: And it was like I felt like i'd actually been

115
00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:13,599
Speaker 1: I don't.

116
00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:19,240
Speaker 3: Know, like you'd overcome an obstacle from your religious.

117
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it just felt like it felt like a beautiful

118
00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:22,440
Speaker 4: little moment.

119
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,719
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's all. That's so nice. I'm so glad.

120
00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, so yes, the album absolutely slaps. It's like

121
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,599
Speaker 4: pop superstar meets ari Astor meets like phenomenal.

122
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,640
Speaker 1: It's just phenomenal. So thank you. Ever go listen, thank you,

123
00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:43,039
Speaker 1: And I'm just gonna quickly.

124
00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,040
Speaker 3: I would feel remiss not mentioning, even though by the

125
00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:47,640
Speaker 3: time this comes out it'll be a couple weeks after

126
00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 3: the fact.

127
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,000
Speaker 1: Not mentioning the fact that Jimmy.

128
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,160
Speaker 3: Kimmel was pulled from the air because of Donald Trump

129
00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,400
Speaker 3: wanting him to be pulled from the air, which is

130
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,880
Speaker 3: very foreboding and scary. And then Donald Trump also posted

131
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,839
Speaker 3: he's designating Antifa as a major terrorist organization. Except Antifa's

132
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 3: not an organization. It just means anti fascist, which means

133
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 3: anybody who says that they are against him, believing that

134
00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 3: he's a fascist, could be designated a terrorist. That's one

135
00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 3: of the many culty things in our government at the moment. Yeah,

136
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:19,119
Speaker 3: love that for us.

137
00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,559
Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, I mean, it's a scary time.

138
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 4: And yeah, comedians are, don't they have like gestures rights.

139
00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,040
Speaker 3: Gester's rights, Yeah, because well, yes the king would like

140
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,520
Speaker 3: but the king only wants gesters that make him look yet.

141
00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,960
Speaker 4: So yeah, but it's just like even in you know,

142
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,000
Speaker 4: medieval times, the gester could sometimes you know, make radical

143
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 4: points and the king wouldn't immediately be had them because

144
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,240
Speaker 4: they had the gestures rights.

145
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:53,320
Speaker 3: I don't know enough about that, but I would guess

146
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,960
Speaker 3: there are some kings who were like, hey, that gester

147
00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,679
Speaker 3: wasn't flattering to me, So I've just with his head

148
00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,760
Speaker 3: with his many dead gester Oh dead Gusters is a

149
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,120
Speaker 3: fun uh fan name.

150
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:08,240
Speaker 1: Anyway.

151
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, freedom of speech on all sides is something that

152
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,920
Speaker 4: we need and it's important.

153
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 1: And I think Aaron.

154
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 4: Is the epitome of somebody who's really leaning into their

155
00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 4: authentic voice.

156
00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,320
Speaker 1: Shall we talk to them? I love it. Let's do it.

157
00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,559
Speaker 1: Welcome Aaron Goldenberg to trust me in person.

158
00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:41,840
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me in person.

159
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,920
Speaker 1: Oh my god, thanks for being here in person. After

160
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:44,600
Speaker 1: a plane and.

161
00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,800
Speaker 2: No sleep, oh yeah that's a story. Yeah, I am

162
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:53,000
Speaker 2: not good with sleeping on planes at all. And yeah,

163
00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,000
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, my body woke me up at two

164
00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,439
Speaker 2: am on the East coast, which means that I was

165
00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,160
Speaker 2: awake at eleven pm on the west coast here.

166
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,400
Speaker 3: So you're floating in the studio right, delirious.

167
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 2: I have no idea what I'm going to say.

168
00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:06,760
Speaker 1: That's exciting.

169
00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,199
Speaker 2: Actually, I know, I know, like, do I remember anything

170
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,559
Speaker 2: from my childhood? We might just gab about our outfits.

171
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,160
Speaker 1: Would you just sleep deprivation on this podcast?

172
00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,880
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, very effective, very tool totally.

173
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:20,240
Speaker 1: Anyway.

174
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:26,040
Speaker 3: Any who, Okay, start off by telling us about your

175
00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,440
Speaker 3: upbringing and what religion your family was.

176
00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,120
Speaker 2: Sure, okay, that's why is it such a loaded question?

177
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,760
Speaker 2: So a big part of my upbringing was ib l P,

178
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:45,199
Speaker 2: which is the Institute for Basic Living Principles. I blocked

179
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,800
Speaker 2: it that a big part of it was that. And

180
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,360
Speaker 2: so we are one of those families that had a

181
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,920
Speaker 2: lot of kids. I'm wanna beleven wow. And it was

182
00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,360
Speaker 2: very much, kind of at far too young of an age,

183
00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,000
Speaker 2: drilled into us that like, families that have more kids

184
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:08,840
Speaker 2: are superior in God's eyes because you're having more people

185
00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,960
Speaker 2: to potentially be Christians, to spread God's word even further

186
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,640
Speaker 2: and all that stuff. It's called the quiverful. Yes, OK,

187
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,760
Speaker 2: we just did an episode on somebody came up to me,

188
00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:21,760
Speaker 2: or not came up to me. Somebody was talking to

189
00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,640
Speaker 2: me the other day and said, you have a large family.

190
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,280
Speaker 2: Are you quiverful? I was like, how do you know?

191
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,320
Speaker 4: You're coming a little more? Yeah, a little bit more

192
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,440
Speaker 4: in the zeit guys where people are like quiver fault

193
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,400
Speaker 4: and you're like, whoa Were you a homeschooled baby for sure?

194
00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:42,320
Speaker 2: Oh my god until tenth grade? Oh well I got

195
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:47,560
Speaker 2: bad I in tenth grade. I or leading up to

196
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,560
Speaker 2: that time. I think my mom was just overwhelmed at

197
00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:55,480
Speaker 2: home with that many kids, children, which are always always

198
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,600
Speaker 2: a young child and always pregnant. I'm number two one

199
00:10:59,600 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 2: of you.

200
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 1: Oh so they were like, let's get him out of

201
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 1: the house.

202
00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of. I think we like expressed a desire

203
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 2: to go to school, and also a lot of our

204
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,560
Speaker 2: friends from church were starting to go to high school,

205
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,800
Speaker 2: whereas they had been homeschooled for most of their childhood.

206
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,120
Speaker 2: And it was at first it was like a very

207
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,440
Speaker 2: controversial thing, but it was also like, you know, put

208
00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,400
Speaker 2: on the full armor of God and you'll be safe

209
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,240
Speaker 2: from all the influences of the.

210
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,680
Speaker 4: Meanwhile, first day of school, you're like smoking a cigarette

211
00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:33,080
Speaker 4: in mud.

212
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,320
Speaker 2: Yeah right, exactly. I immediately started giving somebody a blowjob.

213
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:43,240
Speaker 2: I funny enough or embarrassingly enough. One of my first

214
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,440
Speaker 2: days of my tenth grade science class was biology, and

215
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 2: our teacher very God's Not Dead style if you're familiar

216
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,400
Speaker 2: with that movie, I don't know. Okay, God Bless you,

217
00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 2: God's not Dead. As a Christian and like extremist evangelical, yes,

218
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,440
Speaker 2: about like an atheist professor who first day of class,

219
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:09,960
Speaker 2: he's like, I need everybody to write down on her

220
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,000
Speaker 2: sheet of paper. Your only assignment for today is to

221
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,560
Speaker 2: write down God is dead. And our main character, who's

222
00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,280
Speaker 2: very Christian, is like, I can't believe they're making me

223
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,640
Speaker 2: do this in college. This is crazy. And so he

224
00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,520
Speaker 2: writes God's not dead and the conflict begins.

225
00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,600
Speaker 1: It's like serving goodwill, hunting but stupid.

226
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,200
Speaker 2: Just the dumbest. Yeah yeah, yeah. If Matt Damon was

227
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,560
Speaker 2: an absolute idiot, yeah yeah. So I had been prepped

228
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,920
Speaker 2: and primed, like you know, in your science class they

229
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,640
Speaker 2: might say evolution, and if they do, here are the

230
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,199
Speaker 2: talking points. So I like, study exactly what I wanted

231
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,640
Speaker 2: to say, and she did kind of like first day

232
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,040
Speaker 2: class thing, be like, so here's the thing. In this class.

233
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,640
Speaker 2: We teach science based on proven you know, studied blah

234
00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,880
Speaker 2: blah blah, and we do teach evolution. Does anybody have

235
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,080
Speaker 2: a problem with that? And I was like, this is

236
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,920
Speaker 2: my moment. So I raised my hand. I was like actually,

237
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,800
Speaker 2: and I have no idea what I said because I

238
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,880
Speaker 2: was like, I was like shaking as I did it too.

239
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 2: I like, you know, knew that this was my moment

240
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,840
Speaker 2: to shine for Jesus and this is like my first

241
00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,040
Speaker 2: day of school impression. And all I do remember is

242
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,240
Speaker 2: that she kind of said things I wasn't expecting, and

243
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,959
Speaker 2: so I got shut down. I was like, yeah, cool,

244
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:41,680
Speaker 2: talk about whatever you want. I was like, oh God,

245
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,160
Speaker 2: I didn't have an answer for that. And I felt

246
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,400
Speaker 2: like such a failure because I felt like my job

247
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:51,719
Speaker 2: was to convert everybody around me, including the teachers, day one.

248
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 2: On day one, I needed to be the straightest, most Christian,

249
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 2: and I failed at all of those.

250
00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

251
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,680
Speaker 4: We talk about this a lot on here, but there's

252
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,079
Speaker 4: just this really huge divide between people who are living

253
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,000
Speaker 4: very literally in these church states of mind, because like

254
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 4: I'm at school and I'm like fighting for the Lord.

255
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,520
Speaker 4: And it's like most people are just their recess.

256
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 2: Like, what do you mean you weren't five years old

257
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 2: and obsessed with that there are twenty demons in your bedroom?

258
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah like that, there's spiritual warfare going on for your soul. Yeah,

259
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:39,920
Speaker 2: that was just my daily life.

260
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 3: If I were to read the scenes in the Sweet

261
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,600
Speaker 3: Valley High books where they kissed and feel something then

262
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,200
Speaker 3: the demons.

263
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,000
Speaker 4: See that was my you'all had demon fear yours was hell? Yeah,

264
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,479
Speaker 4: we didn't have demons.

265
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, hell was? I mean Jesus. I so I

266
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,880
Speaker 2: feel like I was raised in multiple like cult or

267
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 2: cult adjacent things all at once because I'm an overachiever basically,

268
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,040
Speaker 2: so Messianic Judaism in a way, it was just like

269
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,440
Speaker 2: an offset of Judaism that believes that Jesus is the

270
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,920
Speaker 2: Messiah and has come and whatever. We did that because

271
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 2: grew up with a Jewish dad, and then IBLP came

272
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 2: into the picture. That really really I think shaped the

273
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,040
Speaker 2: majority of our daily life and everything as well as

274
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,280
Speaker 2: went started going after Temple to an Assemblies of God church,

275
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:41,800
Speaker 2: which also has like very very authoritarian strict leadership, is

276
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:48,520
Speaker 2: always right kind of kind of the Henecostal Pentecostal. Yes, yes, okay, yeah, yeah,

277
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:54,480
Speaker 2: I remember very distinctly a friend of mine at church

278
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 2: one day they explained that their family was going to

279
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 2: start going to a different church, and I remember this

280
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,160
Speaker 2: sadness that I felt. I was like, oh my God,

281
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 2: I can't believe they're not a Christian anymore. Looking back now,

282
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 2: it's like, no, they're just going somewhere else. But we

283
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,000
Speaker 2: were so like programmed to believe like this is the

284
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,440
Speaker 2: only and right one.

285
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,480
Speaker 1: That was when you were an assembly of the sect

286
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:17,880
Speaker 1: of God.

287
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 2: But within our Assemblies of God church, the IBLP teachings

288
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,840
Speaker 2: had like sort of invaded, which is the whole point

289
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,680
Speaker 2: of IBLP to like get an doctrine.

290
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 1: All churches across America everywhere.

291
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've talked to some people who were raised with

292
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:38,200
Speaker 3: IBLB IBLP God who can say it. The curriculum as well,

293
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,880
Speaker 3: and you know, interacted with Bill Gothard and on savory ways.

294
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,720
Speaker 3: But the girls were always taught, of course, very little

295
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 3: because their role is to grow up and have children.

296
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,479
Speaker 1: What was the boy curriculum?

297
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:58,280
Speaker 2: Like? Woof, so a few things I remember specifically. It's

298
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,880
Speaker 2: just like everything for for any gender was just shame

299
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:10,240
Speaker 2: and like blind obedience to authority. The men were meant

300
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,840
Speaker 2: to like just grow up to be these leaders and

301
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:19,439
Speaker 2: so things like studying the Bible and I guess in

302
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,880
Speaker 2: weird ways like practicing exerting authority in different ways. So scary.

303
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

304
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 2: So one of the things is basically like the umbrella

305
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:34,160
Speaker 2: principle with IBLPS, So like the first umbrella is Jesus,

306
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:40,000
Speaker 2: then it's the dad, mom, and children under here. So

307
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,120
Speaker 2: basically you would go by those levels and depending who

308
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,280
Speaker 2: was the oldest at home. So if like it was

309
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 2: an oldest boy at home, like you're in charge of

310
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,960
Speaker 2: the authority figure and not just like hey can you

311
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,640
Speaker 2: watch the kids for a couple of hours, Like no,

312
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,840
Speaker 2: you have permission to spank them. You have permission to

313
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,480
Speaker 2: like discipline and oh my god, yeah.

314
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,600
Speaker 1: Or you were and oldest, did you. I was get

315
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 1: a little drunk on that.

316
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,800
Speaker 2: Power, I mean really fucking unfortunately, yeah, because it was

317
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 2: like we just did your Yeah of course you were children, Yeah,

318
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 2: I do. I do like to think it was the

319
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,480
Speaker 2: fun sibling Like I wasn't like always beating my siblings

320
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,720
Speaker 2: trety thing. But honestly, in talking to my siblings about

321
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,800
Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff. When Shiny Happy People came

322
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,640
Speaker 2: out on Amazon, which if nobody's heard of it, that's

323
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,040
Speaker 2: a great way to like get a big lesson on IBLP.

324
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 2: When it came out, our sibling group chat like blew

325
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:42,280
Speaker 2: the fuck up, because in a way we didn't realize

326
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:47,160
Speaker 2: all the aspects of our life that were stemming from IBLP.

327
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 2: We just knew it as our life, right, And so

328
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,080
Speaker 2: I was even watching it again just in preparation for

329
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,160
Speaker 2: the interview because I knew it would like make things fresh,

330
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,320
Speaker 2: and I was just like, oh, right, it's it's Uh.

331
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 2: There's one quote from it where it basically said IBLP

332
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,040
Speaker 2: makes every father into a cult leader and every home

333
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,680
Speaker 2: into an island. So they are the be all, end all,

334
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 2: and for the rest of your life. It's not until

335
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,399
Speaker 2: you turn eighteen or anything like that. Like our dad

336
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:26,239
Speaker 2: was very very adamant that, you know, decisions even when

337
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 2: you're into adulthood should be run by me. Wow, if

338
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,920
Speaker 2: you're planning to marry somebody like that needs to be you.

339
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 1: Know, even for the sons.

340
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,399
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Like it got to the

341
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 2: point later on that I was in my mid twenties

342
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 2: and I had not yet moved out because I felt

343
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 2: like I couldn't.

344
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:47,439
Speaker 5: Wow.

345
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,439
Speaker 2: I felt like if I did, I would let the

346
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 2: family down. I would, uh, because there's so many responsibility

347
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 2: I have.

348
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,360
Speaker 4: You're like half running the house at this point, imagin

349
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 4: there's I mean, when you say your sibling g chat,

350
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,439
Speaker 4: that's a bigger group chat than I have.

351
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

352
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, friends with friends.

353
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 2: It's a bigger group chat than I can keep up with.

354
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like that's a big group of people.

355
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 4: And I'm sure that your responsibility wasn't I mean, it

356
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,840
Speaker 4: was real, you know, like you needed to help them,

357
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 4: sure in any ways, and.

358
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 2: Then also like trying to live our own lives like

359
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 2: in my mid twenties. Of course I had a job

360
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 2: and I had, you know, my own extracurricular activities and

361
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 2: all that shit. But it was it's so clear to me,

362
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 2: especially in hindsight, like the level of trapped that I

363
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 2: not just felt, but that I was, like I was

364
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 2: on fun fact, my parents divorced after having the eleven kids.

365
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 2: I know, they divorced, and that is where things really

366
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 2: really started changing in her house. Like our mom woke

367
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 2: the fuck up. She put all the kids in school.

368
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 1: Wow, And okay, Mom.

369
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,400
Speaker 2: That I think was like the best thing for them,

370
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 2: because I think they were just exposed to think at

371
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,199
Speaker 2: such a younger age that I was not. I had

372
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 2: already been programmed like all of these things are evil,

373
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: watch out for gay people or people that listen to

374
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 2: rock music. I think by going to school at a

375
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 2: younger age, they still had a chance, and I think

376
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,679
Speaker 2: that proved to be the case with how well adjusted

377
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 2: most of them are in ways that I'm like. I mean,

378
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 2: one of my younger sisters, she's maybe young number seven

379
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 2: or something like, has a master's degree and is in

380
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 2: a high position at work and gets things like paid

381
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 2: time off. I was like, when I was your age,

382
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 2: I was felt trapped at home responsible for all these

383
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 2: things that I definitely was not anytime I would try

384
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 2: to set boundaries because we were not taught boundaries. That's

385
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 2: a big thing in IBLP, Like anything the authority figure

386
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,639
Speaker 2: says is not just what you're supposed to do, but

387
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 2: it's God's will. So if you're disobeying them, you're disobeying God.

388
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, just to see how they have flourished and thrived.

389
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: I also really really love that part of the reason

390
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 2: my dad had so many kids is to raise all

391
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 2: these soldiers for Christ. And now I think ten out

392
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 2: of the eleven of US vote Democrat, and like half

393
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 2: of us are gay. So just like the devil, Why sorry.

394
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: Daddy, is your dad still in that all these strict movements?

395
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 2: You know what, I don't talk to them. I have definitely,

396
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: like had a clean cut from that. It's one of

397
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: the best decisions I ever made. It got to a

398
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 2: certain point where I asked myself, if this person was

399
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 2: not blood related to me and just a random adult

400
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 2: that I knew from church or from work or whatever,

401
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 2: would I want them in my life? Would I want

402
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 2: them giving me unsolicited advice or governing me or instructing

403
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 2: me on how to do things. No, I would think

404
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 2: they're a crazy person, right yeah, I would think they're

405
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 2: awful and manipulative and you know, insert descriptive word here.

406
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 2: That was just a moment for me where I didn't think, oh,

407
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 2: I'm going to cut them off for the rest of

408
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: my life. But it's been seven years at this point,

409
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 2: I and I do think about it sometimes. I'm like,

410
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 2: do I want to reintroduce that that relationship And the

411
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: answer right now is no, Like, I'm good.

412
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 1: If that's what's healthy. That's totally for you, Like, that's

413
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: totally fair.

414
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 3: Can we go back in tie sure and talk about

415
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 3: your relationship with your sexuality and how your parents responded

416
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 3: to that.

417
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: Let's yeah, and how you discuss context for this.

418
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, how I discovered it? I honestly, honestly, girls, I

419
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 2: felt very really gay from a really young age. Yeah,

420
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 2: like before the age of ten, before pubrety or anything

421
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 2: like that, like seven, I was, I is, for sure

422
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: like attracted to my guy friends in a different way

423
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 2: than girls. And I knew that prior to like knowing

424
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 2: what sex or sexuality or anything was. Like, I just

425
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 2: knew that I wanted to see what their bodies look like, right,

426
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: And so yeah, from a young age, I was like

427
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 2: experimenting with friends. But it was also very very clearly

428
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 2: taught within the church iblp all that that like it

429
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: was not only a sin and you know, demons and

430
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 2: all that, but also that it like being gay wasn't real,

431
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 2: Like it's not a real thing.

432
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: Oh wait, tell me.

433
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 2: It's not a real thing, because what it is is

434
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: like it's it's a sin and it's a choice. So

435
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 2: equal to saying like if you commit adultery, are you

436
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: an adulterer. No, you're just a person that's committed adultery.

437
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: I see.

438
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: So being gay is like the sin of gay. Right,

439
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: you're not identified by that thing. You've just done that thing,

440
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 2: and Jesus can heal it and take it away and

441
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: whatever it is. So before I really knew what I

442
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 2: was doing, I knew that it needed to be secret.

443
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: I definitely was a bit more of a flamboyant and

444
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 2: artistically drawn young kid. I loved to dance. I knew

445
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 2: from like the age of four that I wanted to

446
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: be an actor. My favorite movie at like a really

447
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: young age was The Little Mermaid, Like just very very like.

448
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: If I saw that kid, I would be like, Oh,

449
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: they're gay. I hope their parents accept them. And for me,

450
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: the people that I was surrounded with, whether it's my

451
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: parents or other people, I think we're in like an act.

452
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: I don't think it's just like denial. I think it's

453
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 2: like an act of denial, Like we need to explain

454
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: to this child why they're not gay. So something along

455
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: the line of, oh, you like Ariel, Is it because

456
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: you think she's really pretty and you want to marry her?

457
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: Is that why? That's why?

458
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: Right?

459
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: And then like really really intentionally asking, like what girls

460
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: do you have a crush on?

461
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: You know?

462
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 2: So I was programmed to know that I needed to

463
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 2: answer these questions a certain way, right, And oh, you

464
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: like you like to dance just like David dance before

465
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: the Lord, you know, the manliest biblical figure there. Yeah,

466
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 2: praise God, bless him.

467
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 3: When did you become aware that there was dissonance between

468
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 3: how you felt and what you were supposed to.

469
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 1: Do or feel.

470
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: I think at a certain age I realized that my

471
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: friends started dating girls and I was not the one

472
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: girl that I liked at church. I asked her out.

473
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 2: She said no. Also, dating and courtship and all that

474
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 2: is a whole other thing with IBLP, Like it's you

475
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 2: don't ask somebody on a date unless you believe that

476
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 2: you're meant to marry them. So I was like, she's

477
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 2: the prettiest, most popular girl at church, I'm probably meant

478
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 2: to marry her.

479
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: I love your math, yeah yeah yeah.

480
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 2: And then I remember, like such a toxic masculinity reflexive

481
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: thought for me, but it was how men were around

482
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 2: me was when she said no, I felt not just

483
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 2: a normal amount of rejection, but I felt angry I

484
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: felt like she had done something wrong by saying no

485
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 2: to me at thirteen, which is so creepy.

486
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 4: Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean, don't you notice

487
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 4: that if you reject a man, the only way he'll

488
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 4: accept it as if you're like, I have a boyfriend.

489
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 4: I've never rejected, not even that. Yeah, that's just my

490
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 4: like so that I don't get murdered. I'm like, I

491
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 4: have a boyfriend.

492
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true. I'm trying to be better about being honest. Well,

493
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 3: I mean that just yeah, it doesn't It doesn't work

494
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: for me only if it's someone who I know is

495
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 3: not going to kill me, right right, which right, you

496
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 3: don't know, you don't ever know. I don't ever have

497
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 3: a good reasonable But yes.

498
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 4: What a great thing to note that she says no,

499
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 4: You're like, fuck.

500
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: You, yeah, and what the fuck do you mean?

501
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: No?

502
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 4: This programming is just being thrust upon all of these

503
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 4: young men, and I'm sure men who are actually attracted

504
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 4: to these women.

505
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to say, so, yeah, this is like affecting

506
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: them the rage.

507
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you don't even want to date girls and

508
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 3: you're feeling that, I can only imagine what straight boys

509
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 3: are now.

510
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: They're responding to that culture totally.

511
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: And I think that even though it's a very like

512
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: IBLP training, I think that has really infiltrated even secular America,

513
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: just like in the toxic masculinity and the response to

514
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: rejection from women, or there's a big thing in Bill

515
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: Gothard's teaching about like dressing modestly, especially for women and

516
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: basically looking.

517
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: At our skirts.

518
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: I know is so cut by the way. Clothing clothing soap.

519
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: I love that I've been to that kind of but yeah,

520
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: like very very victim blamey, you know, like the epitome

521
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: of what what was she wearing? Right?

522
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 4: I think the ib LP is that what Yeah, okay,

523
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 4: it sounds like it's a disease. As you said it.

524
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 4: It is one of the most abusive, not that you

525
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 4: can like rank things, but it is just pure abuse.

526
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: It's it is training people to be brainwashed victims, yes,

527
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: and training them also to make sure that they don't

528
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: feel empowered to tell on leadership because that would potentially

529
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 2: like be a negative picture of the church and that

530
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: would be worse than anything.

531
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 3: Well, so, so many of the churches we talk about

532
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 3: are like that, I feel. I think it's so interesting

533
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 3: because most I mean, I don't I don't know if

534
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: we count ib LP as a cult, but there. But

535
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 3: compared to cults, it's so interesting because, like you said,

536
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 3: instead of it being like Bill Gothard is directly interacting

537
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 3: with all of these people, he's.

538
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: Just empowering all these men, yes.

539
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 3: To dominate and to control and to not give their

540
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: families a say in their lives.

541
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

542
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the question about what franchise franchise, the.

543
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 4: Question about what the men were learning was such a

544
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 4: great question, Lola. And at first I was excited because

545
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 4: You're like, we were studying and I was like wonderful.

546
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: And then you're like the Bible. Yeah, I'm like cool. Yeah,

547
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: So was their mathematics.

548
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: Oh, like in the homeschool? Yeah, there was. I don't

549
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: I don't recall us like specifically always doing like the

550
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: IBLP homeschool got you. We we started in books and

551
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: then there were like computer homeschool programs as well, and

552
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: so we kind of graduated to that. But the most

553
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: important thing, regardless of whatever else you know, is to

554
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: know the Bible and to know how to like convert people. Basically,

555
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: there is one of the principles. There's like twenty five

556
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: principles of IBLP, and one of them is persuasion. It's

557
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: a principle to teach people. And the definition is something

558
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 2: like I'm going to get it wrong, but it's something

559
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: along the lines of helping somebody understand what is actually correct.

560
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: Huh oh, how kind?

561
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 4: Right?

562
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh gosh, thank you. Yeah. Whether they want it

563
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 2: or not, it's it's in the Shiny Happy People documentary.

564
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: It's like a very quick thing. But I paused and

565
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: read it and I was like, oh, that is so

566
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: gross and manipulative. And to tout that as a virtue

567
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: or something that should that everybody should aspire to one

568
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: funny story just because I'll forget it later. As an

569
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: example of like the authority that my father felt like

570
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 2: he had over us. The moment any of us turned eighteen,

571
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 2: he would drive all of us to go vote and

572
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: would give us a sheet of paper and say this

573
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: is what to do. Damn, you don't even have to

574
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: research it. Damn, here's all the answers for you. And

575
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: at a certain point I started saying, well, that doesn't

576
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: feel good. I don't I don't like we talk about

577
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: the Democrats all being uninformed voters and they just voted

578
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: for Obama because he was black, like all of the

579
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 2: awful awful things right that I can't believe that I

580
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: thought or said or wrote on my Facebook page. And

581
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: I remember one election, it was like a mid term,

582
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: so it wasn't a presidential. But one of the really

583
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,479
Speaker 2: really big things of IBLP is like political change, like

584
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: grooming these young kids to grow up to be Christian

585
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 2: leaders who also like infiltrate politics and thus change the

586
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: laws of the nation. Josh nation, Yes, which.

587
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: I feel like has exactly been what's happened.

588
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, people like Josh Holly. I don't know if you

589
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: specifically IBLP, but like a weirdo. Anyway, he picked me

590
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: up from work one night and I knew that the

591
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: voting thing was going to come up because I hadn't

592
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: yet voted, and he knew that, and so he asked me,

593
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 2: and I said, you know, I don't think I'm going

594
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: to vote in this election. I just I don't have

595
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 2: time to research and stuff. And he said, well, I'll

596
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: give you the paper and I was like, no, I

597
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: would like to do my own research and decide who

598
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 2: I would like to vote for. And he went off

599
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 2: like I I actually wrote about it in my journal

600
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: and read that journal entry recently, and there were so

601
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: many things he said that I didn't remember. But he

602
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: was like, you're just like Lottie Dot, like voting is

603
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: so important. Isis could be at our door next week

604
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: and you'd be twiddling your thumbs that I'd be screaming

605
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 2: like come here, and you would just be standing there

606
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: and you would get us all killed. And it was

607
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 2: like Isis was a really big threat back then. Yeah,

608
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: that was like the big thing. And and I remember

609
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 2: just saying, yeah, I'm not going to do it. And

610
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 2: he said for you, Well, here's the kicker. He goes, Aaron,

611
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: do you believe in God? And I said yeah, like

612
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: he just picked me up from the church that I

613
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: work at. And he said, well, then, in the name

614
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: of Jesus, I command you to vote. And I said,

615
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: you are taking the Lord's name in vain and refuse

616
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 2: to accept that.

617
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: This is the best Christian fight of.

618
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: All I felt. So it was it was how I

619
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: should have felt in that biology class. So I was like,

620
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I said the thing that shut

621
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: them down, and yeah, I didn't vote that election, And

622
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 2: that in its in itself felt like one of the

623
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: most empowering like first apps for me. I think I

624
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 2: moved out like a year later. I was just taking

625
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: small steps to like separate myself from this man who

626
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,720
Speaker 2: had enmeshed himself not just emotionally but legally, like on paper,

627
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: Like I because my parents got divorced, I was now

628
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: the co owner of all the cars like he. He

629
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 2: kind of treated me as the as the wife legally,

630
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: and so I was like, shit, I want to be

631
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 2: removed from all these things. And he had a hissy fit.

632
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: He didn't know what to do with himself. Delayed, delayed, delayed.

633
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: I had a joint bank account with him, like it was.

634
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 2: It was so wild to think about the therapy. Can't

635
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 2: even that, like, thank god, I'm in therapy.

636
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's yeah.

637
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

638
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 4: I want to just throw something out there that I'm

639
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 4: curious about y'all's thoughts on. I don't know if we've

640
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 4: ever touched upon this, but like, for example, I read

641
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 4: a lot in my ex group that a lot of

642
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 4: the things that we were taught to do, such as

643
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 4: being an example or a total fucking weirdo, was not

644
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 4: actually to convert anybody.

645
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: It was more to keep us isolated.

646
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 4: So that we didn't leave because you know, no one

647
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 4: ever joined our church because of me, but a lot

648
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 4: of people bullied me.

649
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also just thought my church was so weird

650
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: that I didn't want to invite people never, Like every

651
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 2: Sunday they'd be like, invite your friends, they're going to Hell,

652
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: and I'd be like, yeah, I don't want to invite

653
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: them here, you guys are so weird. And then I

654
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 2: would invite people and they'd be like, this is where

655
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: you go every Sunday.

656
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 3: Cool, Well, mine was just three hours of the most

657
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 3: boring shit you could possibly imagine.

658
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: So I was like, I don't think anyone will, Like

659
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: I wouldn't.

660
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 4: Make my friends go like so spend the night, Like

661
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 4: if they had to spend the night on Saturday night,

662
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 4: they would have to go with us on Sunday morning.

663
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: And I'd be like you're coming and they'd be like yeah.

664
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 3: And Mormonism, the conversion is a genuine goal because they

665
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 3: are a church of growth.

666
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 1: People convert to Mormonism. Use like kind of makes sense.

667
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 4: I feel like even just from a business standpoint, like

668
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 4: I feel like it's like a it's a hub of

669
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 4: like it's a social network and anyways, Michael.

670
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: Michael did not have that element.

671
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 2: Speaking of influence, I feel like something in reading through

672
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: my old journals that I realized is I had secular friends.

673
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 2: But I could tell by the way that I was writing,

674
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: because I was writing from a brainwash person's perspective, that

675
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: part of my reason for wanting to hang out with

676
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: them or to be nice to them and all that

677
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: stuff was so that they would believe in God or

678
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: see Christ in me. And so thinking back through all

679
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: of the actions that I took or days or years

680
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 2: that I was friends with people just so that they

681
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: might get saved is so sad because I never really

682
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: back then. I don't think I had many like true, genuine,

683
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: agenda free relationships.

684
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: Wow, that's so sad. Yeah, it is sad. It's also

685
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: I don't you generally you think of agenda based friendships

686
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: as they will give me something like sure, I will

687
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: get a role from this person. But if you wanted

688
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: to save them, which is so interesting, and like, what

689
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: would happen if you saved them? What would that mean

690
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: about you?

691
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 2: It would mean I saved one person, because I mean

692
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 2: I was not very good at it. I had a

693
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 2: friend who their family was also IBLP their dad. Basically

694
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: any time would go over, I hated their dad. He

695
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: was so judgmental, constantly, like it was his job. So

696
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: we would just be there playing like children, and he'd

697
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 2: be like, so, Aaron, how many people have you led

698
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 2: to Christ? And I'd be like like, He's like, yeah,

699
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 2: like the prayer of Salvation, like how many people of you?

700
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, I'm twelve, I'm homeschooled, so I'm

701
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: mostly surrounded by my siblings. And I was like none,

702
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: that's really none?

703
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: Oh my god, do you know how?

704
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 2: Do you even know how? And he was not only IBLP,

705
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 2: but he was like one of his legit street preachers,

706
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 2: like he would go to Miami Beach with signs and

707
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: like all that shit, so like one of those guys.

708
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 2: So he felt that at my age of twelve, I

709
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 2: should have already, you know, prayed the sinner's prayer whether

710
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: they want to or not, with like sixty one hundred.

711
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: I mean, good you.

712
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: For admitting none. I would have been like it was

713
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: so like a few. I don't know, probably couple I did.

714
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: I did delay. I think I was like, oh, let

715
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: me think zero. Actually yeah, it's like, well, there's well no,

716
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: he didn't know. It was like going through there, going

717
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: back to a previous question like ages ago, like how

718
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,399
Speaker 2: did my parents accept the mee being gay and all

719
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: that stuff. So basically I kept experimenting with friends, and

720
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 2: experimenting got into like actual what I would consider more

721
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: like sexual activity as opposed to just like more innocent stuff.

722
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 2: And at the age of fifteen, my my mom and

723
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 2: dad one day invited me to their room, which could

724
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: have been a good thing, but I had a weird feeling,

725
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: and my dad plopped three sheets of printed Internet history

726
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: onto the bed, Oh no, and said what is this?

727
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 5: Oh no.

728
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: And one thing I don't know if I've ever had

729
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 2: the conscious though or said it out loud, is like

730
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 2: the fact that they knew it had to be me, right,

731
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 2: you fucking knew right totally, and chose not to address it,

732
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 2: chose not to what I And at the age of fifteen,

733
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: I was getting near planning to come out, and what

734
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: I believed that meant for me was hell, an eternal

735
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: damnation that I wasn't going to be a Christian anymore.

736
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: But I was kind of in a place where I

737
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: was ready to accept that for myself if it just

738
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 2: meant letting this fucking secret go. So sat down with

739
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 2: my parents. My mom started balling, she had to leave

740
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: the room, and I kind of like told them about

741
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 2: my life so far, the life that they weren't privy to,

742
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 2: the molestation that had occurred up to that point, the

743
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: U just you know, experimenting with friends and all that stuff.

744
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 2: And I definitely was coming at it from a place

745
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 2: of shame, like, oh, I'm a bad person, but at least,

746
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: oh God, this feels finally good to get it all

747
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 2: out there. And I didn't know what I thought the

748
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 2: end of the conversation was going to be, but my

749
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 2: dad basically listened and at the end of it was like, well,

750
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 2: you know, there's help for this, and I said, yeah,

751
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: I get you know. I think i'd like heard things about, like,

752
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: you know, gay people becoming straight, But then that would

753
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: also mean I had to admit that I was attracted

754
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 2: to mend and I didn't want to do that, right,

755
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: So I was like yeah, and he said I need

756
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 2: to talk to the pastors, and I was like, you

757
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: have to tell our pastors no, And so I just

758
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: felt like the black sheep of the church for a while.

759
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: I wasn't able to serve. I wasn't allowed to serve

760
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 2: in like children's ministry anymore. I wasn't able to like

761
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 2: sing on stage. I wasn't allowed to like all the

762
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 2: things that I like.

763
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: What happened to my mom?

764
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: And she was excommunicating like except that I was still

765
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: forced to go every single week? Right, And so I

766
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: guess basically like the church agreed to pay for therapy

767
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: for me once a week, so I had therapy once

768
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 2: a week for a year.

769
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: Therapy was in quotation marks, right, Okay, yes, so what

770
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: does this church or the church recommend for somebody who.

771
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 2: Is conversion therapy? Okay, yeah, I don't know if they

772
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 2: call it that, but it's therapy for people with same

773
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: sex attraction. The word gay is not not a thing,

774
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 2: like you have same sex attraction.

775
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: Same sex attraction sounds hotter than gay.

776
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 2: Does it mean I've never thought of it that way?

777
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 4: Yeah? Sex it yeah so many So no, you can't

778
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 4: say gay.

779
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, there was no way I was that. It

780
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 2: was I was demon possessed. It was because I was molested.

781
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: Even though I was molested after I already like very

782
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 2: clearly had feelings for guys. So what I learned in

783
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 2: conversion therapy, which I did that along with reading so

784
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 2: many pam blitz which every fifteen year old kid wants

785
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 2: to do on top of homework, so many pamphlets, so

786
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: watching DVDs of like testimonies of people saying like this

787
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: is my life, now I'm married, this is my wife,

788
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and a lot of those were produced

789
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 2: by Exodus International.

790
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask about.

791
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So Exodus International, for those who don't know,

792
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 2: is a now disbanded, but they were like the big

793
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 2: ex gay in quotes organization for like thirty years or

794
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 2: something like that, and basically at the end of it,

795
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 2: the leaders came out and said, we have not seen

796
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 2: one successful case. Wow, we ourselves are not changed. We

797
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: are still attracted. One of the one of the guys

798
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 2: that was like a CEO or something ended up like

799
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 2: getting into a relationship with another guy that was like

800
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 2: ahead of Exodus.

801
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 3: Oh my god, juicy, I know.

802
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 2: Fu while the organization was still there, but I obviously

803
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: was coming into it at a time where they were

804
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 2: still happening. So I went to conferences and were you like,

805
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: were you taking this literally where you like I will

806
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,240
Speaker 2: be ungay. Yeah, yeah, I think one of the things

807
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 2: looking back at like teenage Aaron, I really wanted to

808
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 2: do the right thing, yeah, and whether that was like

809
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 2: religiously or interpersonally or definitely with this, like I wanted

810
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: to be the good kid. And I felt that by

811
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: doing this therapy, doing all these things, that it would

812
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 2: happen for me, that it would that it would go away.

813
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 2: And that's kind of what is taught with Exodus International

814
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: and any conversion therapy, like if you do these things,

815
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 2: if you heal these core wounds from your past. So

816
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: for example, the big ones that I kind of harped

817
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 2: on was like, okay, molestation and bad relationship ship with

818
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 2: my dad. Never really had a great relationship with my dad,

819
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: so is part of it his fault. I got like

820
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: really angry at him for a while that I had

821
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: struggled with this, and then just kind of came to

822
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: the realization, all right, well, I need to have a

823
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: better relationship with him, which actually made me go into

824
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: even more toxic obedience with him in like as the

825
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 2: head of the household and everything, because I felt that

826
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: by you know, obeying better or having a better relationship

827
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 2: with him, whatever, that meant that would be part of what.

828
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: Having made me straight gay removed?

829
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, and it clearly didn't work.

830
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 3: I'm just so curious about the I mean, I heard

831
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 3: you say on another podcast you don't really remember what

832
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: you guys talked about in their area.

833
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, wow, you did your research. What podcast was that?

834
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: I don't remember?

835
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 3: But are there any like things you have in your

836
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 3: head that came from that experience?

837
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? Basically, like the main things I walked away from

838
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: that therapy experience with was the belief that I wasn't

839
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: really gay. It was a sin, it was a flaw.

840
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: It was like a thing that was broken about me,

841
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 2: that I could heal it, or that God could heal

842
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 2: it if he so willed, and that if I just

843
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: did the right things, it would go away. That was

844
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 2: basically what I walked away with. And so what ends

845
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: up happening, not just for me, but for so many

846
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: people that have gone through conversion therapy is we really

847
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 2: wanted to go away because we've been teased, We've seen

848
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: we've felt like the outsiders. We see everybody getting married

849
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: and apparently like very attracted to the opposite sex, and

850
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 2: it's like, why am I not normal, Well, like, what's

851
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 2: wrong with me?

852
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, this heteronormative fairy tale that not only are you

853
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 4: left out of, but also you're going to hell.

854
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 2: Right right for something that I didn't like that you

855
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: don't want, Yeah, but I don't want that. I'm not

856
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 2: doing on purpose and doing all the right things, and

857
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 2: it's still not going away. And so the message that

858
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: I internalized from that, from years and years of trying

859
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 2: my best, was, Oh, there's something extra wrong with me

860
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 2: that I can't get this to.

861
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: Stop because I'm doing all the right thing and you're

862
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: like a.

863
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 4: Very I mean, I'm assuming you you seem like a

864
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 4: very like type a person.

865
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: Then I get this.

866
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 4: You know, like, and so I just imagine the pain

867
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 4: being so excruciating.

868
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 1: It's very Yeah, I'm.

869
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 4: It's just very hard to think about what must have

870
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 4: been going on for you.

871
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I have to imagine it creates and you

872
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 3: can tell me if it does or it doesn't, but

873
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 3: I imagine it creates an OCD like thought.

874
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: Process where like, was that a gay thought? Was that

875
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: a gay thought? Was that a gay thought?

876
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,399
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I mean, and then you know, let's say

877
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 2: I had gay thoughts two days in a row. Oh,

878
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 2: my God, the devil is winning. And I'm like slipping

879
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 2: more and more into that. And I mean, growing up,

880
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 2: how I did sheltered. How I did I didn't know,

881
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 2: or so I thought. I mean, clearly I knew gay

882
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 2: people because they just exist, but I didn't know any

883
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 2: gay people. I didn't see gay people around me. Anytime

884
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: they were on TV, it would be like, you know,

885
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 2: parents would like change the channel really quick or even

886
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 2: like cover up the TV like it was so evil tabool. Yeah,

887
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 2: And that was that was one of the things that

888
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: finally finally in my late twenties where I started questioning it.

889
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 2: I listening to a recent podcast, heard that one of

890
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 2: you is sober, in one of yous in alan On,

891
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: I'm also sober.

892
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: I'm sober.

893
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,439
Speaker 2: I got into the program and one of the things

894
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: that's just radical honesty and making an inventory of like

895
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 2: everything you've ever done. And I remember I literally wrote

896
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 2: a note for my sponsor, which in short, because we

897
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 2: were about to go over my sex inventory that day

898
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 2: and I knew that for me, my sex inventory was

899
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 2: homosex and I basically gave him a disclaimer. I don't

900
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 2: remember what it said exactly, but it was basically like

901
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 2: you're about to hear a lot of gay shit, but

902
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: just so you know, I'm not kay oh my god.

903
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 2: And so even then, even like as a nearly you know,

904
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 2: thirty year old adult, I was still so so hanging

905
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: on to those teachings of when I was fifteen. Of course,

906
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 2: so even though I like had still you know, slipped

907
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 2: and whatever. But at that point, I was like five

908
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 2: years celibate, and I was like very proud of myself

909
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: and you know, felt like I was heading in the

910
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 2: right direction. I'd been dating a girl for two years

911
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 2: and yeah, and we never did any thing beyond kissing.

912
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: But I was also at a point in my life

913
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 2: where I was practicing honesty anyway. So like the church

914
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 2: that I mentioned that I was working at, in my

915
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 2: job interview for them, the question was simply, what's your

916
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 2: relationship with God? Like, and I started crying immediately, and

917
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 2: I basically told them like my whole story, and it

918
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 2: ended with, you know, this is a struggle I have,

919
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: but I know that God has a better plan for

920
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 2: me and wants me to marry a woman, which is

921
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 2: in any other job interview situation, the weirdest could you

922
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 2: imagine somebody talking about like a normal job interview, but

923
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 2: that church was like, thank you so much for sharing

924
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 2: your vulnerability, like it just made so much sense to them. Yeah.

925
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: So I worked there for years and years, met my

926
00:51:54,960 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 2: girlfriend there and told her before we started dating, this

927
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 2: is my life story. Only ever been with guys. I've

928
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 2: only ever been attracted to you, guys. But I know

929
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 2: that God wants me to be ord a woman all

930
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 2: that stuff, and she, you know, at some point also

931
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 2: was like I really want to save it for marriage

932
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 2: and I was like, yes, absolutely perfect, no, definitely. So anyway,

933
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 2: she broke up with me, thank god, because I was

934
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 2: determined to like go to they at the end. Yeah,

935
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,760
Speaker 2: I had already asked her parents for like for to

936
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: be able to marry her, and I was looking at

937
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 2: buying a ring. But because I was being honest with

938
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 2: her and telling her like, hey, today, I looked at

939
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: a guide today and last night I had a weird dream,

940
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 2: like a sexy homelowe dream. Whatever, she finally broke up

941
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 2: with me, and it was probably one of the best

942
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: decisions's she's ever made. And it was the best thing

943
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 2: for me because it broke my heart and it shattered,

944
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 2: it shattered this like oh, I thought I finally was

945
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 2: going to get it. I thought I finally was going

946
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 2: to accomplish that goal that I've had for so long,

947
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: and this was the person I was going to do

948
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 2: that with. And out of that, like deep Bottom, I

949
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 2: was the forest rock body. Yeah. Yeah, uh. Went to

950
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: the program and anyway, I was doing my doing my

951
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 2: stabs back to the fourth step with my sponsor said

952
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:26,760
Speaker 2: you're about to hear a bunch of gay shit whatever

953
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:31,240
Speaker 2: whenever my sex inventory and he just kind of slowly

954
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 2: nod it and he goes, so, I don't want to

955
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 2: accuse you of anything, and please know that I don't

956
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 2: mean this in a bad way. I just want to

957
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 2: point out that all the names you listed were guys' names.

958
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,919
Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, there are lots of straight men

959
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 2: who only have sex with men. And I said that,

960
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 2: completely convinced of the work, that idiotic words coming out

961
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 2: of my mouth. Wow, And he said, no, there are

962
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 2: not aaron That's not a thing.

963
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 1: Oh what did you feel when he said that?

964
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 4: Well?

965
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 2: I thought he was wrong, Like, you just don't understand

966
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 2: I'm straight. What part of this did you not get?

967
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was slowly as I kept doing the

968
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: steps and kept also like just being in a new

969
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 2: environment that was not heavily Christian. It was just people

970
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 2: from all different kinds of religions with their own interpretations

971
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 2: of what God was, people of all different sexualities, and

972
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 2: nothing was like through the lens of the teachings that

973
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 2: I had grown up with. So it was just seeing

974
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 2: the world and seeing people in a whole new light.

975
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 2: I finally started like giving myself permission to ask questions,

976
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 2: which in all of these things, whether it's Assemblies of

977
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 2: God or IBOP or Exodus International, don't ask questions that

978
00:54:55,440 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 2: contradict like anything. So I remember one of the the

979
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 2: big aha moments for me was, Okay, so God loves

980
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 2: straight people getting together. He just loves it. I know

981
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 2: that God sees a straight couple on a date, on

982
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 2: a coffee date, and it's beautiful and he's cheering and

983
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 2: he's going, yes, they're probably gonna eventually have sex, and

984
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 2: that's amazing. God is a.

985
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: Purview guys once they're married.

986
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: Only once they're married, of course, But like he's like,

987
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 2: I was taught that he rejoices when he sees two people,

988
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 2: straight people doing that, and so I was like, so

989
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: two straight people, it's a really beautiful thing. But if

990
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 2: it's a man and a man or a woman and

991
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 2: a woman, somehow that same exact scenario is evil. That

992
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense. And just allowing myself to have that

993
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: simple thought started really cracking the facade. So that turned

994
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 2: into Okay, if God loves everyone, and maybe what if

995
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 2: this isn't a sin for me? What if it just

996
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 2: is part of who I am? And what if God

997
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 2: not only doesn't hate it about me but actually sees

998
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: it as something that's beautiful about me? And just ask

999
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 2: myself that question, which I had never come close to

1000
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:43,320
Speaker 2: anything like that again, just started to like chip away,

1001
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 2: and I started to accept myself really for the first time,

1002
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:55,439
Speaker 2: and I did the classic thing of like, I'm bisexual,

1003
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 2: but I'll probably still marry a woman. Like It was

1004
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 2: a very slow story, just like I okay now, but

1005
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 2: eventually coming to that place of being able to say

1006
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 2: and accept that about myself and not see it as

1007
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:15,959
Speaker 2: a flaw or something evil or something to politically fight

1008
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 2: against or any of these things. It was just a

1009
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 2: part of me and something that might actually be a

1010
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 2: great part of me. And so for the last however

1011
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: many years, I can't count you guys, I don't know how.

1012
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:33,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1013
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 2: Since then, it's it's been a journey of like undoing

1014
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 2: a lot of those old core beliefs and being able

1015
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: to just have things like normal friendships where I'm not

1016
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 2: like trying to convince them into my like evangela goalies them.

1017
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 2: Is that a word you guys? Did I mention I'm

1018
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: nut since eleven PM, Yeah, to like evangelize them into

1019
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 2: like brainwashing them, which was seen as a good thing.

1020
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 1: So you get to be a human being. Yeah, having

1021
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: actual authentic connection with other people.

1022
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I remember so, like I said, I was

1023
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 2: like five years celibate. I did the thing because I'm

1024
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 2: type A and I want to be a good student.

1025
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 2: I did the thing where I went through like a

1026
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 2: year of AA and no sex, no like relationships or anything.

1027
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 2: My sponsor was even like, you can have sex please,

1028
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 2: but I was like, no, I want to wait for

1029
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 2: the year. So I did. And I remember it just

1030
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 2: being I was like, oh yeah, yeah, it's like that

1031
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 2: was fucking great. This is thank god. It was a

1032
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 2: good experience being no, I'm sorry, having sex for the

1033
00:58:55,000 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 2: first I could do so after having sex for the

1034
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 2: first time after five years, it was such a wonderful experience,

1035
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 2: and I remember thinking like, yeah, I'm gonna do this

1036
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 2: because I'm gonna do that, and being able to have

1037
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 2: that experience and not feel the deep shame afterwards and

1038
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 2: being able to say like that just happened, that it

1039
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 2: just is one of my therapists. I'm so so grateful

1040
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 2: for her. Like one of the key things I'll take

1041
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 2: away from her is like as far as she was

1042
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 2: the one I was seeing like during that time, and

1043
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 2: I was again a good student, so I was keeping

1044
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 2: track of like names, how many people, like from the

1045
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 2: time I was fucking four. Wow, Like I knew exactly

1046
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 2: how many people and in hindsight wasn't that many back then,

1047
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 2: but it was like a shameful number to me. And

1048
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 2: I remember one day kind of getting embarrassed and like

1049
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 2: I stopped get and she was like, good because that

1050
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 2: number doesn't have to mean anything.

1051
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh I counted for a long time. Yeah.

1052
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 4: I also counted wrote all the names down my father, No,

1053
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 4: he didn't brought it to my therapist, and I was like,

1054
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 4: I'm a bit worried about this, and I said, these

1055
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 4: are just people that I think are cute.

1056
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Oh my god, was like BJ.

1057
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 4: I was like, cool, cool, cool, you know that there's

1058
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 4: just shame around sexuality.

1059
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 1: I think for even if it's straight sucks.

1060
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 4: You know, like like it's just in our culture and

1061
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 4: narrative and it's so unfortunate.

1062
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 3: I was going to say, the fact that you were

1063
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 3: able to have that sex after that period and not

1064
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 3: feel shame, it's so cool, it's incredibly impressive.

1065
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, power of sobriety be doing.

1066
01:00:56,160 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I had shame after straight ass sex for years.

1067
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, straight ass sex or straight up okay, a.

1068
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 2: Little bit of both.

1069
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: I was Mormon, remember.

1070
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, okay, what do you say to somebody who's

1071
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 5: do you constructing beliefs about sexuality separating it from the

1072
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 5: religious views they were growing up and in general, And

1073
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 5: then I'm gonna ask a follow up question after that.

1074
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 2: I would say to them, you're gay. That's what I

1075
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 2: would say to my younger self. Yeah, like, hey, you're gay,

1076
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 2: and that's okay. Yeah, just that simple message, but like

1077
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 2: really accepting that fully for what those words mean. I

1078
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 2: think the the cognitive dissonance was there for so long

1079
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 2: with not just ideal P stuff, but with the conversion

1080
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 2: therapy teachings I had questions I had, Well, that doesn't

1081
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 2: make sense because like I met this person, they're okay,

1082
01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 2: and they seem really nice. They didn't seem possessed or

1083
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 2: they were like a nice person. Am I a bad

1084
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 2: person for thinking that they're nice? So I would say,

1085
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 2: if you have questions and you are specifically in an

1086
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 2: environment that doesn't all allow or encourage questions, find somebody

1087
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 2: around you to have those conversations with, whether it's somebody

1088
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 2: else in that same place as you that you kind

1089
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 2: of test the waters and be like okay, wait can

1090
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 2: we can we talk about this? Because I don't think.

1091
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: This is like.

1092
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 2: Nowadays, there's so many more resources online of people that

1093
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 2: have probably been where you're at and have come out

1094
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:43,080
Speaker 2: of it. I remember when Exodus International was disbanded because

1095
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: I was still very deeply brainwashed. I didn't see that

1096
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 2: and see their statements as oh wait, wait, this isn't real.

1097
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 2: I saw it as oh no, the devil is when.

1098
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 3: It yeah, because like one of the one of the

1099
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 3: young menim in coin in my life keeps saying like,

1100
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 3: but what if this is the devil tricking me?

1101
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1102
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and like how do you that cognitive bios?

1103
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 1: How do you respond to that.

1104
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:14,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't believe the devil's real, so that's

1105
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 2: easier for me now. But yeah, but I heard the

1106
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 2: other day somebody on TikTok or something talking about like

1107
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 2: you when you say to a Christian, you know, the

1108
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 2: feelings you have are not the Holy Spirit, it's group think.

1109
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 2: It's you know, the music and whatever like. Or if

1110
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 2: you feel afraid, that's not the devil, that's demons. That's

1111
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 2: your your body telling you something's wrong. But you're trained

1112
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 2: from such a young age to believe that any like happy,

1113
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 2: joyful feeling is God, the Holy Spirit, Jesus, it's a

1114
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 2: good thing, and any like slightly uncomfortable thing is demons

1115
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 2: and devil and temptation and whatever. But also it truly

1116
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 2: is the perspective about it. Like I I now live

1117
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 2: a life that my younger self would probably have just

1118
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 2: seen this objective other person been like, well that person

1119
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,720
Speaker 2: is clearly deceived and they're going to hell and all

1120
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 2: this stuff. However, nowadays I don't want to kill myself.

1121
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 2: Nowadays I can walk around relax, and I'm not trying

1122
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 2: to modify my voice to be lower, or walk a

1123
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 2: certain way, or lie to people all the time about

1124
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 2: what my testimony is or whatever it is, Like I

1125
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 2: can just be a human and I don't know, I

1126
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 2: would say to that young person, like, just keep asking questions.

1127
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 2: I think the process is so different for everybody, and

1128
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 2: for me, the fact that it was from the start

1129
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 2: of conversion therapy to when I came out thirteen years

1130
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,439
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's longer, Like that's a long fucking time time.

1131
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 2: And yeah, but if I gosh, I hope the best

1132
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 2: for them. I mean, like, looking online, like I said,

1133
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 2: I knew the Exodus was disbanded, and so I was

1134
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 2: looking for desperately for testimonies of people saying to to

1135
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 2: affirm what I believe. Yeah, and all I could find

1136
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 2: was the opposite. And I was like, have they wiped

1137
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 2: them from the internet? Have they? Like I just couldn't

1138
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 2: believe that these people were correct, Like I had to

1139
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 2: believe what I grew up with. And yeah, I firmly

1140
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 2: believe that the church and its teachings, as well as

1141
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:46,960
Speaker 2: conversion therapy stole decades of my life. Wow, of just

1142
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 2: being able to live comfortably in my own skin and

1143
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 2: be an authentic person.

1144
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 1: And now you're walking around feeling good.

1145
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:57,240
Speaker 2: So gay into heighth ass genes.

1146
01:05:59,360 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 1: I love that.

1147
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 3: It's like it was just about allowing yourself some space

1148
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 3: to ask the things you were too scared.

1149
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: To ask, because it's just always it always comes down

1150
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 1: to that, Yeah, yeah, talking to.

1151
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,520
Speaker 3: Someone or just allowing yourself to not be afraid to

1152
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 3: like look in that little corner in your brain and

1153
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 3: be like, but.

1154
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 4: What if because your brain is unconsciously asking it. And

1155
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 4: when I think of cognitive dissonance, I think of like

1156
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 4: two just like completely opposing notes playing in your brain

1157
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 4: and like.

1158
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 1: One of them is unconscious and it's like so loud.

1159
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's just yeah, sometimes you just got to

1160
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 4: ask the questions.

1161
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, scary questions.

1162
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 3: Well, I know that you are no longer a Christian,

1163
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 3: but if there were somebody who still very much believes

1164
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 3: in Christianity and loves Jesus and doesn't want to leave Christianity, Like,

1165
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 3: how have you seen people be able to reconcile those things?

1166
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 2: Yeah? Healthily? My sponsor is one of them.

1167
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:52,479
Speaker 1: Really.

1168
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's gay. He's been married for twenty something years.

1169
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 2: I don't remember where they got married, but some really

1170
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 2: cool state that allowed it back then. I do know

1171
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 2: people who still are very very firm in their faith

1172
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 2: and go to church and all that stuff. I just

1173
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 2: know that that's not me. Part of my deconstruction was

1174
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 2: not just asking all the questions about my sexuality, but

1175
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:23,000
Speaker 2: asking all the questions like finally allowing myself to look

1176
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 2: at arguments against the Bible and God as opposed to

1177
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,680
Speaker 2: like only coming back with scripture and all that. So

1178
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 2: allowing myself to like actually look at videos from an

1179
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:41,200
Speaker 2: atheist perspective, or listening to podcasts where people just talked

1180
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 2: very open and freely about their journey from faith to

1181
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 2: where they are now and hearing them as like, Oh,

1182
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 2: these aren't bad people, these aren't ill meaning people, these

1183
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 2: are just I actually kind of like them. I actually

1184
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 2: might think I am one of these people. And again,

1185
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 2: that process took a few years too.

1186
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 4: But you gotta be patient with yourself, you know, Yeah,

1187
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 4: because lifetime of beliefs take a better time to undo.

1188
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 1: Certainly.

1189
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, Now, are we missing anything about your story? That's

1190
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 4: I mean, I know there's so much I want to

1191
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 4: see the show.

1192
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: I want to see that.

1193
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, yea.

1194
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 2: I'm writing a book, yeah, of course, which is part

1195
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 2: of the reason I've been going through my old journals.

1196
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 2: It's tentatively currently titled Journal of the Gay Christian. So

1197
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:36,799
Speaker 2: it's re examining those old journal entries, which is coming

1198
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:41,839
Speaker 2: from the perspective of a very brainwashed type a person

1199
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,360
Speaker 2: and being able to reflect on those modern day and

1200
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:48,639
Speaker 2: then also just like telling stories maybe that aren't attached

1201
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 2: to a journal because I didn't journal that day, but

1202
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,639
Speaker 2: it was like a formative moment for me. There's one

1203
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:57,840
Speaker 2: journal entry that I just laugh. I can't do anything

1204
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 2: but laugh because it's basically me describing a very like

1205
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 2: not even a sexual dream, but just ay an intimate dream.

1206
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 2: It says something like, last night, I dreamed that I

1207
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:13,599
Speaker 2: cuddled naked with a friend, and I know that that's

1208
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,440
Speaker 2: not actually sexual desire. What that means is that I'm

1209
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:23,480
Speaker 2: really longing for close male friendships and that will basically

1210
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 2: like lead to those feelings going away. And I read

1211
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 2: that and I was just like Okham's raiser, buddy, you're

1212
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 2: gay like.

1213
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:35,480
Speaker 3: The mental pretzel. Oh my god, Yeah, I can't imagine.

1214
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:40,440
Speaker 2: It's all pseudoscience and pretzels and not the good kind.

1215
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: Ye not give me a welt. I want to go

1216
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:46,719
Speaker 1: to the mall and get a wesel.

1217
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:51,640
Speaker 2: I ordered them at the movie theaters recently. They are gigantic.

1218
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,759
Speaker 1: Oh I've seen this huge? No, I haven't.

1219
01:09:55,880 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 2: It's so so many calories, I'm sure, but anyway, they're

1220
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 2: insane and important and important for this podcast.

1221
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 1: We are sponsored by what.

1222
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:11,080
Speaker 3: We are not, but I would eat some for free

1223
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:15,240
Speaker 3: and if offered. Where can people find you and your

1224
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 3: hilarious videos and you're acting skills?

1225
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, you can find me on social media

1226
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 2: anywhere at Aaron Goldie boy a A R O N

1227
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 2: G O L D Y boy. If you're really curious

1228
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 2: to seeing my acting work. IMDb is good. It was

1229
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:37,479
Speaker 2: just in The Hunting Wives, which is the gayest show.

1230
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 1: It's the biggest show in the world. Right, Oh my god,

1231
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 1: I still have to watch it.

1232
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 2: You'll see me an episode, fine, can't wait link and

1233
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:47,559
Speaker 2: you'll miss it. But it's whatever, fun, so fun.

1234
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:49,080
Speaker 1: You're going they're going to ask you back?

1235
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:51,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, they're going to get renewed they

1236
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 2: have to obviously.

1237
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. People are obsessed, Yeah, obsessed.

1238
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's such a gay show.

1239
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 4: I mean, but like, what just taking a moment to

1240
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:06,200
Speaker 4: celebrate what an incredible arc you've had, Like you're on

1241
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:11,760
Speaker 4: this beautiful, cool journey and yeah, I like going from

1242
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:15,160
Speaker 4: Bill Gothard to being on the Hunting Lapses so cool.

1243
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:20,760
Speaker 4: It makes me happy. Yeah, yeah, me too.

1244
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 1: Congratulations.

1245
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:22,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1246
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:26,320
Speaker 2: Thanks. We're also starting to do screenings of a new

1247
01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 2: movie that I'm in called We're So Dead. It is

1248
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:32,280
Speaker 2: a horror comedy that takes place in a restaurant, so

1249
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 2: it's servers versus the like crazy Karen and it's oh

1250
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:39,559
Speaker 2: my god. We're doing screens around the country so you

1251
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:41,120
Speaker 2: can check out I think it's a weird So Dead

1252
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 2: movie dot com to see if there's a screening near you,

1253
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,759
Speaker 2: and I might be there if I'm not shooting Hunting

1254
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:48,519
Speaker 2: Wive season two.

1255
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:57,559
Speaker 1: Perfect. Thank you so much for being on playing. Wow, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron,

1256
01:11:57,760 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 1: what an unbelievable conversation.

1257
01:11:59,840 --> 01:12:03,640
Speaker 3: I know, I know, I don't know exactly what to

1258
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:07,360
Speaker 3: ask you, because I'm guessing conversion therapy would not be

1259
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:09,200
Speaker 3: something you would join.

1260
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if there's any any new listeners.

1261
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 4: At the end of the episode, usually we ask if

1262
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:18,400
Speaker 4: I would join the cult that we've discussed, and unfortunately

1263
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 4: many a time I would, uh and my naive tea,

1264
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:24,799
Speaker 4: but conversion therapy.

1265
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 1: That's a hard one.

1266
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:30,680
Speaker 4: I definitely have like a more fluid sexuality and have

1267
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 4: since I was young, And there were so many things

1268
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 4: that I felt super guilty about, but that oddly wasn't

1269
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 4: one of them. Maybe it's very deeply unconsciously like torturing

1270
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 4: me because there was definitely anti gay roderick being spread

1271
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:50,679
Speaker 4: around me and the two bite twos.

1272
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 1: Is it just being like a wrong thing to do?

1273
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:59,360
Speaker 4: But yeah, I absolutely hate that anybody was forced to

1274
01:12:59,360 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 4: go through this.

1275
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:04,479
Speaker 1: It breaks my heart. I know, I know, I yeah.

1276
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:04,720
Speaker 2: You know.

1277
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:09,320
Speaker 1: Interestingly, even when I was a little Mormon, were you.

1278
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 4: Like a small child being Mormon or were you just

1279
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:15,040
Speaker 4: like a tiny bit.

1280
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 3: Mormon depending on the eraic either one? Okays. As a preteen,

1281
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 3: shall we say the Mormon Church was very I mean

1282
01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 3: has historically been very not LGBTQ friendly, and you know,

1283
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:35,760
Speaker 3: campaigning against gay marriage and.

1284
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 1: All this stuff.

1285
01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:39,679
Speaker 3: But I don't know, like that part is like never

1286
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:43,400
Speaker 3: penetrated for me. Yeah, I'm very straight. I've always been

1287
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:46,840
Speaker 3: very straight. But in middle school, maybe we've talked about this,

1288
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:48,360
Speaker 3: I was one of like three kids in the Gay

1289
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:51,600
Speaker 3: Straight Alliance because I would be so mad when people.

1290
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 1: Would be mean to the queer kids.

1291
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:56,639
Speaker 3: That's not like I guess that's just my mom's values,

1292
01:13:57,040 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 3: just like be kind to everyone.

1293
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:01,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was gonna say, I got really lucky with

1294
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 4: my parents, even though they were generationally raised in the

1295
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 4: two by twos, like their parents, their grandparents, there was

1296
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:12,880
Speaker 4: so much guilt about so many things, being selfish, you know,

1297
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 4: just not being good quote unquote.

1298
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 1: But to their.

1299
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 4: Credit, my parents credit, they had a very open mind

1300
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:23,599
Speaker 4: towards people of different sexualities and of different races. And

1301
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 4: that's probably why I don't have the guilt about that

1302
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 4: particular subject. So I dodged some definite bullets there. That's nice, but.

1303
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just so cruel.

1304
01:14:37,080 --> 01:14:43,559
Speaker 4: And it really needs to sup because yeah, like like

1305
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 4: Aaron so eloquently points out, it doesn't fucking work, So

1306
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:48,639
Speaker 4: oh my god.

1307
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:48,800
Speaker 1: No.

1308
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:52,240
Speaker 3: And the head of the that organization ex is International.

1309
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:54,479
Speaker 3: I was actually looking him up and he's like really

1310
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 3: vocal anti conversion therapy, yes speaker. I don't know if

1311
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 3: he counts as an activists. We should totally talk to him,

1312
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:03,040
Speaker 3: we really should.

1313
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:05,160
Speaker 4: And I was just gonna say, Aaron references it and

1314
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,439
Speaker 4: the conversation I believe, but like he said that the

1315
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:13,160
Speaker 4: leader of Exodus International himself was like, hey, this never

1316
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:14,800
Speaker 4: worked ever.

1317
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, because of course not.

1318
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 3: Of course these people are who they are, no judgment

1319
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:20,800
Speaker 3: to anybody for being Christian. But in a time where

1320
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 3: Christian nationalism is rising and there's like this cultural desire

1321
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:28,639
Speaker 3: to go back to quote traditional family values, I think

1322
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:32,160
Speaker 3: it's important now more than ever because generally what that

1323
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:35,280
Speaker 3: means is it's going to include a lot of hate

1324
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 3: and yeah, yeah, and a lot of conversion therapy almost certainly.

1325
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I.

1326
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:43,400
Speaker 4: Was surprised that there wasn't one person who is by

1327
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:45,800
Speaker 4: who is like, yeah, I guess I'm just gonna go

1328
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 4: with women and call myself straight now. It was like no,

1329
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:53,840
Speaker 4: every I mean maybe but still identifying as gay.

1330
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:56,720
Speaker 3: It was just you know, yeah, I'd be curious to

1331
01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:59,519
Speaker 3: ask him if there were any bye boys who like,

1332
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 3: you know, went with it for a little bit and

1333
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 3: then like yeah, I'm curious.

1334
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:05,200
Speaker 1: I'm so curious to know what that what that was

1335
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 1: all about? Anyway? Uh fuck, conversion therapy is the point.

1336
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 4: YEP, And uh watch Aaron everywhere that he's appearing, watch

1337
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 4: him on the Hunting Wives, follow him on Instagram, and

1338
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:21,439
Speaker 4: uh as always follow US rate US five stars and

1339
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:24,719
Speaker 4: remember to follow your gut, watch out for red.

1340
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 1: Flags, and never ever trust me. Hye bye. This has

1341
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production hosted by Me Lola.

1342
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:39,719
Speaker 4: Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is Gee Holley.

1343
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:41,879
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1344
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:45,320
Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1345
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 4: is Patrick Kuttner.

1346
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1347
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:53,480
Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark

1348
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:54,519
Speaker 4: and Daniell Kramer.

1349
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:57,040
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1350
01:16:57,200 --> 01:16:59,760
Speaker 1: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult podcast.

1351
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:02,720
Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1352
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepodat gmail dot com.

1353
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:09,080
Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1354
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:10,760
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts