WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 20 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.160 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.399 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:29.280 can make your own decisions. What a all right? The 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:35.400 show started, Garrison. Hey, we're gonna be talking about Canada again, 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:41.360 so yeah, um, and to discuss Canada and politics and 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.440 the happenings here. We have another journalist who writes for 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:51.920 I Believe, Anti Hate Canada and like the Canadian Antia 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:55.000 Hate Network and also Vice. I believe right, I've written 0:00:55.000 --> 0:01:00.200 for Vice. I'm currently researching full time and extremism researcher or. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.480 It's a new initiative called the Online Hate Research and 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.160 Education Project. It's actually partnered with Canadian TI Hate Network 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.200 and it's it's under the new Burger Holocaust Education Center, 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:14.440 which might be renaming very soon. I'm I'm very excited 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:16.200 for you guys to get into a Twitter fight with 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:24.639 James Lindsay can't wait. So, yes, Dan here has joined 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:27.959 us to talk about Canada because I've gotten a few 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.680 messages about this thing that's happening. My mother, who's in 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.360 Alberta called me a few days ago to talk about 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.720 this thing that's happening. So it's been, it's it's I'm 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.640 getting a lot of things and it's definitely worth discussing, 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.240 specifically on some of the rhetoric that people are using 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.280 around this. So I'm actually I'm gonna I'm gonna hand 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.360 it to Dan to talk about what like how did 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.000 this thing like what is it and how did it 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:58.160 kind of get started? Yeah, well, so Garrison is not alone, 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.400 by the way, for anyone not in Canada. Every single 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.120 person's mother in the entire country is called and asthen 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:06.400 about it. I just got another message literally right now, 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:14.239 like literally this second. Moms of Canada have been activated. 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:18.640 Moms of Canada have been activated, but not in exactly 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.920 the same way that they're being perceived to be all 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:26.519 the way. So the quote unquote trucker convoy, which I 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:28.240 might get into a little bit later, but I'm kind 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.640 of like against even calling it a trucker convoy. Yeah, 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:39.000 it was started on January and by a former Wigsit 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.560 party now called the Maverick Party member Tomorrow Lich and 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:47.960 a group of like very active far right grassroots protesters. 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.600 You do a lot of organizing like this, uh, and 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:53.720 most of them, most of their activities kind of go 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:58.120 back to Yeah, they go back a decent a decent amount. Yeah, 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:01.239 like this. I mean there's links to people that have 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.119 been doing it in the nineties in Canada's movement right now, 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:08.959 but a non binding motion against I think it's a 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.080 M three a few years ago really mobilized people and 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.840 it's kind of been more consistent since then of the 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.160 same groups of people. Yeah, that's that's when we talked 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.280 about in our first Canada episodes about kind of how 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:23.919 we got to that point and now like those same 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.040 people are still kind of behind what's going on right now. 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.240 So yeah, there's this alleged caravan of truckers of all 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:34.880 the truckers in Canada going going to Ottawa, um in Canada, 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.520 all the truckers, and so this thing was kind of 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.160 originally organized by some like known far right figures and 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.000 the people associated with like the Canadian Yellow Vests, which 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:45.200 kind of died down, but it didn't die down. It 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:49.680 just morphed right, morphed into a very strong anti vax 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.280 presence in Canada. Right now, the anti vacks movement is 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:54.760 getting a lot of popularity in Canada, and it's run 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:56.520 by these guys who were doing Wexit, which is like 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:58.720 West Exit, but for like it's it's it's like for 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:02.000 Alberta NBC to go away from Canada because the rest 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.480 of Canada's too liberal. Um so what exit and the 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.280 Elves have really changed all their focuses into this anti 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:10.720 backs thing as a way to do recruiting, and they've 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:14.400 prompted this kind of movement of truckers going to Ottawa. 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.560 UM for a few specific reasons which I think Dan 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:19.560 probably knows a little bit more about than I do. 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.040 Like I I know the gist of it, but you've 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.440 been focus on the on this slightly more than I have. Yeah, 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.919 I guess the main reason is it works, um like, 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.920 just from the perspective of getting attention and being able 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.120 to get a message out. Um. There's been a lot 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.520 of traction on this that these groups don't normally get. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:42.320 I think the last trucker convoy um that was done 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:46.080 under this sort of umbrella it had like nine I 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.520 think was the total amount of like trucks that made 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:50.839 it to Ottawa the last time this was trying to 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.000 be done and it was basically the same demands in 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:57.480 the same reasons. So this one was started on January 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.479 and it didn't get that much buzzed. There's a couple 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:02.719 of days. The original goal was set at a hundred 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.760 thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact time, but once 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:07.760 it hit that pretty fast, and it hit the first 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.839 million pretty fast in ways that like these fundraisers really 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.039 really don't like the last big one we saw in 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.120 Canada that was quite alarming in that fast cap out 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:20.720 at under four hundred thousand dollars and that was um 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:26.360 for a barbecue for a barbecue that got defied protests 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.200 last year and UH ended up getting like all it's 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:31.400 it's a bad door shut down. So there's a lot 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.120 more money now in this one. Yeah, because this this fundraiser, 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.000 which was supposed to go like hand in hand with 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.400 these truckers protesting the vaccine mandates because they're upset that 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.640 they're not allowed to truck into these states because they're 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.200 not vaccinated. So they have decided to all truck into 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.640 Ottawa as like a pseudo strike slash like blockade type thing, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:51.680 because they're saying that they were not going to do 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:53.560 our jobs and we're gonna kind of block off access 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:58.560 to these roads, um until this mandate is is removed. Now. 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.920 Of course, the funny thing here is that the man 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:04.400 date that to enter to not being allowed to enter 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.799 the States to do your trucking. That's not a mandate 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.920 by Canada. That's done, but that like that's the rule 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.680 in the United States because you're the United States, they're 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:15.440 the States is actually the ones to be the blockage 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.120 of the Canadian government has no control over this. Yeah, 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:22.240 it's not like it's not actually the thing. The way 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:25.320 to get them out and support is incredibly effective because 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.120 something I think like twenty percent there was a survey 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.560 recently of Canadians are against the mandate, which is like 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:35.680 really huge um for like Canada's anti vax movement to 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.120 kind of get that like support and like a lot 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.560 of people are mobilized too. By there's a trend of posting. 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.240 It started from four chain and twenty team, but it's 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:48.000 getting revived a lot again now of people posting like 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.400 empty grocery stores. Even a Conservative member of parliament recently 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.440 posted an empty grocery store. And as for people's emails 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:57.160 to try to like change the laws, it turned out 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:01.039 to be from the UK. It was a stock photo. Uh. 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.279 And there's been like even like the stories themselves have 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.720 had to come out and make statements being like we're 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.880 not we're not empty, we have we have, we are 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.760 in the process if we restocking. That's happened the US 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.560 to where it's like we're literally emptying that shelf to 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:23.280 move stuff with shelf. We've had really bad snowstorms for 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.000 a lot of the real photos of like empty shelves 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.080 and it's just like, oh no salads tap out and 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.280 the stories just make a statement it's like, yeah, we 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:32.040 had two snowstorms a day in a row in ock. 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:34.480 But like the narrative that they're trying to push is 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:38.520 like these these mandates are causing these shortages um and 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.280 and the propaganda is working even though it's all at 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.680 a false premise because first of all, it's not like 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:46.600 that that those aren't that, that's not causting that and 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:50.640 second of all, complainly to Canadas, that's not the Canada's 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:52.880 not the one who's making the restrictions in the States 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.080 are the one that's that's lucky from doing this. But 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.240 but it's it's not actually about these issues. It's that's 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:00.440 not the reason why you're getting all these people driving 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:02.440 to Ottawa because there is a lot of people. There's 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.120 not many trucks, but but there is there is a 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:06.880 decent amount of people. You know that it's that that 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:08.880 are that are going this because it's not it's not 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.440 actually about these specific issues. It's this general um like 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:17.240 seething hatred of Trudeau and like a generalized grievance that 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.760 has gotten this broad support. It's gotten enough financial backing 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:24.440 the fundraisers what like like over six million dollars now um. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.080 And it's it's not like it's just what it actually 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.400 is is an incoherent kind of intention just to go 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:34.880 to the capital and cause problems, right that that's what 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.720 they're actually that. That's what like the underlying thing is 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.560 for a lot of a lot of the like explaining 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.680 why it's gotten so picked up. Some some official demands 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.400 like have been put out and they would be even 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.520 more confusing like to read than like some of them are. 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:51.400 There A couple of the most recent ones are just 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.960 very general like stop this divisive nature that our government 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.040 is imposing kind of thing, like I'm paraphrasing, but it's 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:02.800 it's really quite bland. Um. Some demands from sagittal groups involved. 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.600 One they say they won't leave until Trudeau steps down. 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.360 Others say at one point said until every politician stopped down, 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.640 stepped down. I think that was when before something kind 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.520 of pushed in more realisticals into the movement. But like 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:18.319 in terms of like what they're talking about, for like 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.080 the rhetoric surrounding it, We're seeing a lot of rhetoric 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:26.000 around the sentence being like we this can be our 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.679 version of January six, but like they're saying that like 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:31.800 in a good way, like that's that's the thing that 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.160 at least some of the organizers, and then it's being 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.520 carried out into like the generalized rhetoric is that this 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:40.240 this should be our own version of this, which is 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.199 which is interesting on a few ways. But like also 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:48.440 like this would not have been said like seven months ago, 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.440 but it's being said now, which means like there's been 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.800 a shift in how January six is being viewed. There 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.960 was this initial like really distancing and now it's like 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.760 it's becoming almost like more acceptable to acknowledge that it 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:02.760 was is maybe a good thing in your eyes, And 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.160 it's like, that's an interesting rhetorical shift that that's been 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.160 going on. But then it's also concerning just like a 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.480 regular level to be like, yeah, these people wanted, these 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:11.520 people are saying they want to do their own January six. 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.200 That has obviously physical implications for all these people trying 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.280 to drive to Ottawa um do either blocking off roads 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:23.160 or just like making the government inoperable. Yeah, a coat 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.800 streamer or a streamer in what's called the plat Army. 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.199 And now that's sometimes kind of just being rebranded as 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:33.640 like Diagalon network quote unquote, which we can get into more, 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.440 but it's it's gonna be sillier. Yeah, they're they're kind 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.760 of their own they're their own issue for later. Yeah, 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:42.679 they're their own issue. But it was one of their 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.280 streamers who is very tangently connected to like a lot 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:50.319 of the the far right people that are involved in 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:52.559 this protest movement, leaning up to an in fact, Pat King, 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.080 who is officially one of the organizers of the convoy 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:58.679 until he wasn't and then he was again. That was 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.600 a whole dramatic thing for a like he streamed alongside 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:06.640 Plaid Army guys before um so someone on Plaid Army said, 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:08.520 and I would quote, I would like to see r 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.320 O in January sixth event see some of those truckers 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:15.200 plow right through that sixteen football and on January that 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:17.240 was put up on CTV News made it live, and 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:18.839 it's kind of scare a lot of people. I think 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.880 at that point, former Conservative leader Andrew Sheer had already 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:25.480 voiced support for the convoy. There's been a lot of 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.880 other like members of parliaments voicing support for the convoy. 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.400 H some of whom really didn't seem to know like 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:35.360 what was involved and really just kind of heard like 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.760 in passing, Oh it's against these mandates and I opposed 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.679 these mandates too, and it's like, if it think it's true, 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.240 DEALU based well side out, it's gonna help you. You're 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:48.760 gonna help your political career. Yeah, yeah, it's completely true. 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.599 So have they actually started like blocking roads or is 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:55.199 it just a bunch of random people driving down to 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.319 like driving. So there's there's a few different like converging 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.520 points of the convoy. I think I would say probably 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.720 the biggest one. Um, but it's it's hard to kind 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.760 of keep track. Started in British Columbia and it's going 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:09.760 so for this, I'm sure not everyone knows like math 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.000 for Canada. So like Burtish Columbia is like our west coast, 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.760 that's our our California. UM, and Ottawa is it's close 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.520 to the west and it's in Ontario, but it's on 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.840 the border of Quebec and Ontario and that's where our 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:27.199 parliament is. That's our capital city. So it's coming from 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.120 every which way, but I think the largest contingent comes 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:33.439 from British Columbia and it just basically goes eastward to Ottawa, 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:38.440 picking up people along the way. Yeah, yeah, it's it's 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:41.280 it's it's it's heading in that direction. Um, how do 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:43.000 we know about I know some people have kind of 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.760 already some people have kind of already sort of arrived 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.679 in Ottawa, but most mostly people are expected to more 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.720 arrive in the next Like, well, we're recording this Thursday night, 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.480 so this episode will probably come out on Monday. Um, 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.400 people are expected to arrive on Saturday is the day 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:02.120 that expt people expecting like everybody to be there at 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:06.240 least that the understanding of it. The convoy itself arrives Saturday. Um, 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.560 there are people like coming from further east who are 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.200 like staying overnight in town and kind of just showing 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.199 up the parliament event. So like, by by all accounts, 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.320 the parliament show will probably be a lot bigger than 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:22.840 the so far. Yeah, I guess we haven't mentioned numbers yet. Sorry, numbers, 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.000 nor like what what they actually really plan on doing 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:26.600 once they get there, because it's it's been so much 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.599 talking about like why this got started and what's the 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.160 like driving motivational factors. But yeah, like their their goal 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:33.920 is to get to a place and do a thing, 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:39.400 and that's the Yeah, the thing is that thing? It's 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.480 mostly unclear. I have seen discussions about like blocking on 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.760 like doing like trying to assemble like a trucking strike, um, 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.199 and then like blocking off accesses so that the everyone 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.839 is forced to obey their demands or else like the 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:56.199 country will shut down. UM. Then some people maybe are 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.960 just kind of doing it as a one day protest. 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:00.839 It's it's it again. It is it is. It is 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.160 pretty unclear, but people are headed to their UM. What 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.120 what is the what is the numbers? At least from 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.960 where we can see, like online and stuff. So their 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:17.319 numbers have been the number of fifty tucks people became 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:22.480 trucks very quickly. Um, and that same number. I think 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.840 Rogan repeated it, I know said it. Yeah, yeah, Joe 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.200 Rogan said it. THEO Fleury went on Laura Ingram and 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.200 repeated the fifty thou numbers. He said, fifty thousand truckers, 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:35.720 not trucks specifically. Um. As far as I know, THEO 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.800 Fleury has no official involvement Convoy and it's just a 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.720 fan and it's just repeating some numbers that like organizes 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.880 themselves have kind of echoed. Um. This is also complicated 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:48.960 for me because this is very troubling in a lot 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:50.800 of ways. But also I'm a huge fan of the 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:57.040 song Convoy, so this is really devastating. Please continue, It's 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.400 all right. Yeah, So Canada spurr It protests movement has 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:05.280 kind of habited doing this in February of Kelly and Farcas, 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.520 who's like a mainstay of the anti mask anti backs movement. Uh, 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.080 and in between when I'm talking about and right now 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.960 actually dated Pat King for a while, who's kind of 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:19.480 the most outspoken person organizing The current convoy claimed that 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.160 a hundred thousand people were coming to Parliament for what 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.880 was then like an anti mask demonstration. Before the event, 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.760 data will look changed to fifty uh. And I was 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.880 actually there, it looked closer to like two people. I 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.560 had friends that had counted like a hundreds and seventy people, 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.920 so not quite fifty uh. For all intents and purposes, 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:43.640 the current one will be longer. Reporters doing great journalism 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.040 along the way have estimated up to like four hundred 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:50.520 people so far um, including I think fifteen trucks outside 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.760 the Bass Pro shop in Toronto this afternoon. I was counted. 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.200 Side note, if nothing else, got to give them points 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.440 for stopping at Bass Pro in Toronto. It's a pretty 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.520 sweet bass do little good bass Pro shop. My favorite 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.840 is the one they built into the Giant Pyramid. Yeah 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:10.040 obvious Nashville baby, so the best pro in Toronto if 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.560 you're ever in town, Robert, it's the only place around 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.000 that I've been told it sells sub Sonic twenty two rounds. 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.200 So if you're like in the woods, so I feel 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.160 like in the woods, but like you don't want to 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.680 like scare your neighbors because the woods aren't bad. Big. Yeah. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:25.480 I used to have some friends and I used to 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:30.920 go shooting in a suburban neighborhood with two because it's technical, 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:37.360 don't don't do you can definitely it was there was 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.880 it was legal. Oh right, Canada doesn't I do not. 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.440 I don't endorse the you might have might have to 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.760 cut this part out for regional sharing. Go leave this 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:52.080 all late, just a bunch of words, make it nonsense 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:57.920 with bleeping please continue. Yeah, so only fifteen trucks were 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:03.360 counted by CBC at that point. Um, and like videos 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:08.200 and stuff have been yeah, yeah, slightly short. But I 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:10.679 think by the time by Saturday, I think there's a 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:14.439 decent chance that there might be maybe around fifty trucks 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.320 to a hundred trucks. If there's anything more than like 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.760 five hundred, all of the media footage will look like 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.639 there's fifty. That's enough trucks, Like nobody's cameras going to 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.679 be able to show the extent of them realistically. And 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:29.600 then yeah, once they're there, it's unclear what they want 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:31.159 to do. Some people just want to do the function 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.360 up thing. Some people want to carry on the tradition 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.119 of like what the most of the anti like vacs 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.600 anti mass protests in Canada have been which have been 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.919 pretty big, but it's been, it's been, it's been mostly 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.359 standing with signs UM. So it is, it is. It 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.359 is really unclear because again most of the truckers in 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.520 Canada probably are not going to be there nor to 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:57.920 necessarily endorse this idea. UM nor is like right because 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.440 they're pressing the they're they're initial issues, not even based 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.560 on an actual like thing. So it is. I'm not 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.160 sure how many people are really gonna show up because 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:07.800 I don't know even how specific it is to an issue. 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:12.439 UM one one just really interesting, funny, interesting thing that 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.040 I thought about is like with with some of these 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.359 people UM you know talking about you know, going to 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:19.879 Ottawa and not leaving until the mandates are dropped with 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.920 the entire government resigns. Like these people who are talking 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:25.400 about this like block engine shortage and stuff are also 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.680 like the same people who get very angry and indigenous 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.800 people for blocking off roads and trails um for like 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.680 oil and like pipeline protests. A lot of them, Yeah, 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:38.040 some of them. Some of them are indulged in pretending 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:42.880 and stuff like pat king back in September, um kind 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:45.040 of went on like a kick where he just let 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.960 a lot of people believe he was indigenous and claimed 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.879 someone not correct then that is that is weird, and 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.520 a family member of him went on Facebook and like 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.440 bombarded people with information that he was not in fact indigenous, 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.840 and it was all very weird and a lot of 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.359 people held them to comments in the past where he 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:09.680 talked about Anglo Saxon's having the strongest bloodlines. Uh yeah, 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.520 that is I think Pat Pat King probably deserves his 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.720 own little deep dive on one of the pods. But 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.240 but yeah, like it's it is like with all the 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.560 people talking about blockads and stuff all you most of 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:24.399 them coming from like the western side of Canada. Um 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:26.520 it is it is uh yeah, like you're you're talking 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.320 about all these things, and like there's really big pro 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.600 oil sentiments and all of the in all of this 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.800 crowd because a lot of it is connected to financial 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:38.480 and political stuff, not necessarily even this vaccine issue. It's 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:42.240 been more like a symbol to represent their general kind 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:46.400 of upsettedness at the way at the way things are 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:50.080 going for them. It's interesting to me. So when I 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:53.200 first heard about this, my I was. I was like, oh, okay, 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.600 so this is gonna be like the Chilean truckers. And 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:57.000 I was like, okay, well this is really bad. But 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:00.520 it's like it's interesting to me, like how you people 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.359 they've been able to mobilize, Like that's like not a 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:10.399 large number of truckers, Like HiT's yeah, it looks like 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:12.880 a lot of like vehicles when you when you see 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:17.320 like footage photos and videos like like in I'm gonna 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:19.359 like a lot of like Telegram and Facebook groups of 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.359 just people just like sharing pictures and photos of the 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.200 rally of the convoy passing through their talent and like 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.639 it's like what Robert said, like it's here when it 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.639 fills out both sides of the camera and you have 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:32.440 a wide depth of field, it looks huge and it's 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:37.240 it's really hard to count. Uh. The money is preposterous, 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.439 also said note on on the money um. The funds 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.600 were frozen a few days ago on the twenty five, 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.000 but today one million dollars was released back to them 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.480 because they gave go fund me a pretty clear plan 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.200 allegedly according to go fund me, for for how they're 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:54.680 gonna distribute it. The rest of the it's it's I 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:56.439 think it's like six point seven million. Now, so the 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:58.159 rest of the five point seven million I think is 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.560 still frozen. Okay, it is, it is, so it is 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:05.560 so much money. Uh, yeah, we should do something like that. 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:10.560 They could They could actually buy truck nuts for fifty 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.159 tho truckers, which is the most I've seen them. Guests 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:16.600 truckers are coming. They could buy twenty truck nuts off 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.080 Amazon for all of them and still have the vast 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:21.199 majority of their funds left over. Yeah, but see, that 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.879 would be an act of actual heroism, and they're not 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.280 going to do that. The reason why I wanted to 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.040 talk about this is one to like acknowledge that it's happening, right, 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.800 acknowledge the tactics that they're using in terms of trying 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.639 to go into an urban area and block off like 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.120 trade routes essentially um, And then I wanted to talk 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.160 about like, first of all, it doesn't matter that like 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:44.960 the fact that this is happening is divorced from any 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:49.000 kind of direct cause, right because they're they're actual grievance 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.040 is false and their grievance doesn't really actually matter. It 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.120 just needs there needed to be some kind of cultural 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.480 or propaganda push in order for this physical action to happen. 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:00.399 And that's been done. It doesn't even need to be 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:05.640 like coherent. Um. And then escalation people driving here doing 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.600 this thing. And then I know there was this one interview, 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:11.440 UM I forgot on what news channel, but the interviewed 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:13.879 this one trucker guy part of a part of this 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.520 part of this convey in my hometown of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:23.920 Um and he's he said, UM, I advocate civil war. 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.040 If people don't want to step up, we have guns, 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:29.880 will have some we'll stand up and we'll bring them out. 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:33.600 But like, so that's the quotes, Like in the fact 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.520 that you're just openly saying I advocate civil war in 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.480 relation to this movement is like my goals. My goal 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:41.959 here is being like people fantasize about Canada as being 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:44.439 a place to escape, you know, like Canada is like 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:47.240 the other from the States, and like, no, it's the same, 0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:51.520 like we are like where you cannot escape away from fascism. 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:54.040 There is no really there's no real away at right 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:57.080 now in terms of there's no safe ground. It can 0:22:57.080 --> 0:22:59.840 spread to where you are and for people living in Canada, 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:02.440 when you have people on the news on like Global 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:05.960 News saying I advocate civil war within the context of 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.800 this of this like, um, you know, a convoy movement, 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:12.679 it is, it is an actual thing worth paying attention to. 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:16.800 It is an actual problem. It's it's huge and earlier 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.879 today and I might pronounce his name on but del MANUK, 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:24.560 doc from CBC Toronto tweeted a story because he on 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:29.879 behalf of CBC contacted an actual organizer of the convoy. 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:32.720 They have different regional organizers and and their website list 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.720 them all um and it had Patking funny side done, 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:37.600 It had pack King listed as an organizer while they're 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:39.399 go fund me had a statement saying they had no 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:44.000 connection to him, which was very funny. But yes, so 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:48.080 CBC Toronto pack contacted them and the guy responded enough 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:51.320 lies you quote slave blooded trader, evil will get its 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:56.000 due in the end. And after a little yeah after yeah, 0:23:56.280 --> 0:24:00.800 after it back, yeah after it, back and forth, very 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:03.720 brief back and forth. Uh and just like a couple 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:07.679 of questions, uh, the organizer ended with, you know, you 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:10.280 toe the line for the global corporate coup taking place 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:12.400 under the guys of public health. You can't be that 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:18.439 dumb traders will swing in time. Oh boy, Yeah, I 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:21.720 do think Americans don't fully understand how much the anti 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:24.080 vax movement is tied to far right politics with in 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:27.720 Canada and it's like been like the driving force of 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:30.120 far right politics for the past two years and it's 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:34.119 gotten so much larger. Um it is, like it is, 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:36.239 it is. It is a thing like when when you 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:38.760 have when you have people on camera saying we want 0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:42.160 to January six, I advocate a civil war, talking about 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:45.560 not leaving until the government either resigns or mandates are dropped, 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:49.760 and then threatening physical violence on top of that. Um yeah, 0:24:49.800 --> 0:24:52.000 like it's it is. It is a thing that could 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:54.080 happen there, and that's kind of why I wanted to 0:24:54.080 --> 0:24:56.679 talk about it is like yeah, when I have my 0:24:56.760 --> 0:25:01.000 mother calling me dozens of message just from random people 0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:06.439 like worried about this, then yeah, it is an issue, like, um, 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:10.359 it's it's it's not it's not not a thing, No, 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:15.400 it it is. And the rhetoric is so universal against 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:20.320 anyone they perceived to be leftist too, that it is 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:22.400 really dangerous. Like there's been a little bit of talk 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:26.840 of like counters in Ottawa. Um, when the numbers are 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:30.320 this big, like there's no safe weight for people to 0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:32.280 to stop that sort of thing, especially when all all 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:35.960 the vehicles are on that side, Like it's a it's dangerous. 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:39.760 There's a lot of violent stuff, um even uh, like 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:43.679 I was looking today the People's Party of Canada's they 0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:45.720 got like five percent of votes in our last selection. 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:48.600 They had a little bit of a scandal during our election, 0:25:49.359 --> 0:25:52.840 which is at the end of last year. UM, where 0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:58.439 a writing director for I think it's uh, it's the 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:03.560 Great Area of London is Elgin, Middlesex, London, so they're 0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:06.600 they're writing directors and not their member of parliament writing 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:11.280 um was revealed to uh post like sculpt mask Nazi 0:26:11.440 --> 0:26:14.080 memes and memes comparing Bernier, the leader of his own party, 0:26:14.160 --> 0:26:19.119 to Hitler, so like probably not a negative comparison, um. 0:26:19.200 --> 0:26:21.760 And he was not fired for it, but he was 0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:24.080 fired after it came out that he was being charged 0:26:24.119 --> 0:26:29.840 for throwing rocks at our prime minister. Yeah, he actually rely, 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:32.359 he recently said on a live stream. He was asked 0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:35.199 he was currently on trial, and he said, yeah, I 0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:38.720 mean as far as I know, Like he's been posting 0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:41.560 images of like trucks running people over and that's just 0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:47.000 like one connection to h to the legitimacy of it all, um, 0:26:47.080 --> 0:26:49.680 like you I mean the plat army guys, the ones 0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:53.600 who talked about driving the truck sixteen feet. They're also 0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:58.480 connected with Bernier. They've had Randy Hillier on their podcast before, 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:01.680 who's a sitting politician, remember provincial parliament which is kind 0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:06.920 of like our state senate equivalent over here. Um, They've 0:27:06.920 --> 0:27:09.960 they've had him on and like there's some like legitimacy 0:27:10.040 --> 0:27:13.240 to it getting on and when you just talk about 0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:16.800 the broad movement in general. Former um Conservative Party of 0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:20.240 Canada leader Andrew Shear, who had kind of a rocky 0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:25.159 departure from the party because he allegedly his campaign funds 0:27:25.240 --> 0:27:28.679 to pay for his kids private school. So I note 0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:31.680 like he had already signed on and endorsed and been interviewed. 0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:37.200 Erin O'Toole, the current leader of the of the Conservative Party, 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:42.560 uh just today actually said he was going to engage 0:27:42.560 --> 0:27:46.280 with them. Earlier this evening, Sergeant in Arms Packnents McDonald 0:27:46.320 --> 0:27:49.280 sent an email to our parliamentarians ahead of Saturday's trucker 0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:52.639 convoy protests and quoting Justin Link's twitter here. There have 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:55.639 been attempts to collect MP's home addresses. As such, the 0:27:55.680 --> 0:27:58.280 Sergeant at arms is advising to avoid the rally and 0:27:58.320 --> 0:28:03.800 go somewhere safe. That apparently wasn't listened to Erin O'Toole, 0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:09.040 who said to do it anyways, and Justin Link tweeted 0:28:09.080 --> 0:28:11.760 later tomorrow, I will be meeting with truckers to announces, 0:28:11.880 --> 0:28:16.399 right after Parliamentary Security warned MPs to avoid the protests entirely. 0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:20.320 So it's not great. Yeah, I mean again, this will 0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:22.840 probably come out after Saturday, So if we don't talk 0:28:22.880 --> 0:28:26.199 about this again, then that means probably it's good. I mean, 0:28:26.359 --> 0:28:29.560 they showed up, they protest, and they kind oficipated if 0:28:29.600 --> 0:28:32.000 we're following this up in a few days with another episode, 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:37.080 that that be something bad happen. But again, even even 0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:38.760 at this point, it is still worth talking about in 0:28:38.840 --> 0:28:42.480 terms of like the generally like this is like the 0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:45.200 kind of like the net of why this is so 0:28:45.240 --> 0:28:47.800 important for everybody is what you were saying about, Like, 0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:51.200 when you've got this many people, this many trucks coming 0:28:51.240 --> 0:28:54.840 from an outside and moving into a city, there's very 0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:57.880 little that can be done against them. Um, like there's 0:28:57.880 --> 0:29:00.400 not there's not really much of an effect the counter 0:29:00.520 --> 0:29:02.760 other than trying to get another massive people in cars 0:29:02.800 --> 0:29:07.360 to confront them, and that's um, you know, potentially dicey situation. 0:29:07.440 --> 0:29:10.000 So this remains a very powerful tactic. We've seen it 0:29:10.080 --> 0:29:12.240 used all over the United States too, like, and it's 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:17.120 this idea of like blockading a city. Even though this 0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:19.560 is kind of the earliest step in taking that is 0:29:20.560 --> 0:29:22.320 this is gonna be the last time people try to 0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:26.640 extend to this logic. Yeah, So that's that's kind of 0:29:26.680 --> 0:29:30.120 the surrounding cultural reasons and shifts and rhetoric and like 0:29:30.640 --> 0:29:33.720 applicable nous as like an act of like an act 0:29:33.720 --> 0:29:37.880 of like protest or like like revolt or insurgency whatever 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:40.080 whatever you want to use. Is there's interesting because like 0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:42.640 a lot of these other interesting thing about the States 0:29:43.080 --> 0:29:45.400 compared to Canada is like the States we have like 0:29:45.480 --> 0:29:47.920 we have like an actual like far right movement, like 0:29:48.000 --> 0:29:50.560 we have like we have like conservatives, when then we 0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:53.800 have like the far right movement in Canada. That that 0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:55.719 distinction is not much of a thing. A lot of 0:29:55.760 --> 0:29:58.680 a lot of there is there is some far right 0:29:58.720 --> 0:30:01.320 figures trying to push stuff for it, absolutely, but a 0:30:01.360 --> 0:30:05.840 lot of like the space in between conservative and far 0:30:05.920 --> 0:30:10.360 right is kind of a little bit more fluid. A 0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:12.480 lot of these people who are showing up are not 0:30:12.600 --> 0:30:15.920 like far right protesters. They are kind of regular conservatives, 0:30:15.960 --> 0:30:19.080 but they're still getting sucked into saying I advocate a 0:30:19.120 --> 0:30:22.160 civil war like that is just a regular conservative dude. 0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:24.200 He's not a member of any kind of political thing. 0:30:24.440 --> 0:30:26.680 He's It's like, it's that is just that is just 0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:29.600 kind of what this culture on the western side of 0:30:29.600 --> 0:30:32.880 Canada really really like a kind of defaults to almost 0:30:32.880 --> 0:30:34.800 when when you start going into this kind of like 0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:39.040 anti Trudeau territory, because that's the their their their main 0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:42.000 their main politics is anti Trudeau. Like that is that 0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:43.760 is what they are. So anything that gets to that 0:30:43.800 --> 0:30:46.480 point is allowed, whether that is conservative or that is 0:30:46.520 --> 0:30:49.040 like more far right, as long as it's anti Trudeau, 0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:52.560 then it's it is a valid politic. And that's another 0:30:52.640 --> 0:30:54.800 distinction in the State that that's a thing in the 0:30:54.920 --> 0:30:57.320 Canada that I don't really see as much in the States. 0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:00.080 It's very familiar to me when you talk about how 0:31:00.160 --> 0:31:02.480 anti Clinton is um fed into Trump is um like 0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:04.880 that that is I think a worthwhile comparison to me, 0:31:05.120 --> 0:31:07.840 because there were a lot of American conservatives who could 0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:10.280 get in bed with anybody if they were staying against 0:31:10.360 --> 0:31:16.200 Hillary or Bill. Um, cool stuff. Well, this is all fun. 0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:21.720 I hope to not talk with you about this again. UM, 0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:24.840 but there is a chance, there is a chance people 0:31:24.880 --> 0:31:27.800 have conversations, um, if you wouldn't want to after af 0:31:27.840 --> 0:31:31.120 this episode airs, if people want to see what happened, 0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:33.840 right because this this air is probably Monday, UM, and 0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:37.200 the convoys set to arrive on Saturday. Where can they 0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:39.840 find work talking about that, whether that be like your 0:31:39.840 --> 0:31:42.760 Twitter feed or um, if you know if any articles 0:31:42.800 --> 0:31:46.360 are planned. Yeah, so I'm planning on live tweeting. UM. 0:31:46.560 --> 0:31:50.360 I can't make any promises because safety is always a 0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:53.479 thing and I want to know what it looks like 0:31:53.560 --> 0:31:56.840 until Saturday happens. But I'm planning on live tweeting. My 0:31:56.880 --> 0:32:00.880 twitter is a at spineless L. That's the words by 0:32:00.960 --> 0:32:05.040 Less and then just the letter L. So yeah, you 0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:07.160 can check in on his account to see if he 0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:10.640 has a thread by the time this episodes out. Um, 0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:12.880 And yeah that's how that's how you can kind of 0:32:12.920 --> 0:32:14.680 figure out what happened if you're just listening to this 0:32:14.720 --> 0:32:16.600 now and then in the meantime, there'll be a lot 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:19.240 of attawa media covering it. If you just want to 0:32:19.240 --> 0:32:22.840 see the fallout, I imagine the Canadian Antia New Work 0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:25.320 might talk about it more. They put an article today 0:32:25.520 --> 0:32:28.160 on it that that covers more of the kind of 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:30.360 problems that the far right that we talked about today. 0:32:30.400 --> 0:32:33.520 Then the most other media will go into they did. Uh, 0:32:33.560 --> 0:32:35.960 that was a very good article. And then also today 0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:39.640 um I Elon Musk tweeted and support of the Canadian truckers. 0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:43.640 So just in terms of let's just as as a 0:32:43.720 --> 0:32:46.640 good example, I think this situation is a really great 0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:50.440 way to start thinking about politics and culture um and 0:32:50.560 --> 0:32:53.160 how they relate to each other, and how this type 0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:56.280 of thing succeeds, and how it succeeds um and why 0:32:56.320 --> 0:32:59.240 this rhetoric is so successful in bringing in so many 0:32:59.280 --> 0:33:02.640 people in Canada, uh and raising six million dollars almost 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:05.880 seven million dollars. But anyway, that is that is the show. 0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:11.240 One more plug dance so people know where to find you. Uh. 0:33:11.320 --> 0:33:14.080 I only really am active on Twitter, so again it's 0:33:14.120 --> 0:33:17.880 at spineless LU. The word spineless is then I don't 0:33:17.920 --> 0:33:20.440 have a spine. And then the letter L on Twitter, 0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:28.640 you plug your getter account, You're you're getting Wow. Yeah, 0:33:28.960 --> 0:33:32.760 real Real get her user vibes coming off of Dan 0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:39.760 on social media platform that Joe Rogan looked at and said, 0:33:41.760 --> 0:33:43.640 Robert's just trying to get me to plug my stock 0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:51.120 puppet accounts. Yeah, everyone, this is fucking off. You could 0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:54.600 follow all my sock puppets at Fascist Wizard dot c 0:33:54.800 --> 0:33:59.320 a of anyway, that is uh that that doesn't for 0:33:59.360 --> 0:34:05.360 our show. Thank you for listening, and yeah, convoys, Canada 0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:28.040 can't can't escape? Excellent, Thank you. It's the New Year's again. Whoa, Yeah, welcome, 0:34:28.080 --> 0:34:31.280 Welcome to the Year the Tiger. This is a special 0:34:32.840 --> 0:34:36.160 special lunar New Year's edition of It could Happen here, 0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:40.359 a podcast that he is today just about well it's 0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:43.520 still about sort of things falling apart and things being rebuilt. 0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:46.960 But I wanted to specifically, you know, do do it 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:49.200 do it do a special luniar New Year's episode and 0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:52.840 spend some time, I think talking about Chinese nous and 0:34:53.200 --> 0:34:56.240 how what sort of being a part of the Chinese 0:34:56.280 --> 0:34:59.600 diaspora in sort of in the US and Canada is 0:34:59.680 --> 0:35:03.040 like and you know how how that how the influence is, 0:35:03.040 --> 0:35:05.680 how we organize, how what what we're afraid of, what 0:35:05.680 --> 0:35:09.480 we're sort of proud of um and with me to 0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:13.080 talk about this. We have j n who I think 0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:17.040 first time I ever returning guests. Yeah, who is it works? 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:20.680 With laus On? Hello j n Oh what an honor. 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:23.479 Thanks thanks for inviting me back. Yeah, thank you for coming. 0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:27.919 And we also have Jane She who is a queer 0:35:28.000 --> 0:35:31.440 Chinese settler living in unseated traditional and ancestral territories and 0:35:31.480 --> 0:35:37.480 the Mosquian Sasquamish and slave with tooth nations in what 0:35:37.680 --> 0:35:43.440 is falsely and fakely considered Canada. Um. She is a poet, writer, editor, 0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:46.680 and an organizer and does many other cool things. Hello Jane, welcome, 0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:50.560 welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me. 0:35:50.920 --> 0:35:56.080 UM just wanted to share that it's musquam, squamish and tooth. Yeah. Sorry, 0:35:56.120 --> 0:36:00.720 I Fortunately I do not live up and so my 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:06.080 my pronunciations of tribal names are even worse than they 0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:08.839 are for the tribal days that are around me. So 0:36:09.000 --> 0:36:16.239 my apologies. Now. So al right, before we get into 0:36:16.239 --> 0:36:18.720 a bunch of extremely grim stuff, I wanted to because 0:36:18.760 --> 0:36:21.319 this is the this if you will be listening to well, okay, 0:36:21.440 --> 0:36:24.960 unless listening to this on Monday night, in which case, uh, 0:36:25.239 --> 0:36:29.759 congratulations on beating time. But most of you're probably gonna 0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:33.160 listen to listening to this on on lunar New Years, 0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:35.400 and so I wanted to before, yeah, before we think 0:36:35.440 --> 0:36:37.360 it's completely dark. I want you to know what you 0:36:37.400 --> 0:36:40.359 choose favorite Chinese New Year's food is, because this is 0:36:40.400 --> 0:36:44.120 like maybe my favorite holiday, and it's basically my favorite 0:36:44.120 --> 0:36:47.120 holiday because in in Grand Chinese tradition, it's just an 0:36:47.160 --> 0:36:51.040 excuse to eat a lot. So yeah, opening the floor up, Yeah, 0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:53.359 I think you're the expert here, Jane, so feel free 0:36:53.360 --> 0:36:58.520 to I am not like to laid down the knowledge. 0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:04.399 I am not an expert just because uh I full 0:37:04.520 --> 0:37:09.560 dumplings does not mean I'm an expert. But I mean 0:37:09.680 --> 0:37:16.160 I haven't spent like lunar New Year's with really that 0:37:16.200 --> 0:37:20.080 many other people in a very long time. So my 0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:25.040 sense of like breath of food has really really narrowed 0:37:25.080 --> 0:37:32.680 to what is available to me. Um. And I also 0:37:32.760 --> 0:37:35.279 have been really struggling with the dumplings that I've been 0:37:35.280 --> 0:37:39.520 making because of like carpal tunnel issues. But I've been 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:45.680 thinking a lot about jellyfish lately, Like I keep thinking 0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:49.680 about jellyfish, and I keep thinking about like the sesame 0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:56.200 anything with sesame in it. Yeah, and like just boil 0:37:56.360 --> 0:38:00.839 dumplings I feel like are really great for me at 0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:06.040 this particular moment. Yeah, my favorite is uh in Cantenese, 0:38:06.080 --> 0:38:14.799 it's called nan go, which is it's really yes um. 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:17.160 And the way my mom used to make it all 0:38:17.200 --> 0:38:21.759 the time was like dipping it in an egg first, um. 0:38:21.800 --> 0:38:23.920 And so it has this kind of like eggy crust 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:27.560 on it, which is really really awesome. And I've been 0:38:27.560 --> 0:38:30.360 making up of the past couple of years myself where 0:38:30.400 --> 0:38:33.440 I am and I can't get to go to the 0:38:33.440 --> 0:38:36.560 grocery store and grab some because it's only available around 0:38:36.560 --> 0:38:39.439 this time. I guess they don't really produce it any 0:38:39.440 --> 0:38:42.359 other time. And last time I went to visit my mom, 0:38:42.440 --> 0:38:44.680 she like loaded my suitcase full of them and that 0:38:44.800 --> 0:38:47.520 was able to eat them fast enough, unfortunately, and some 0:38:47.560 --> 0:38:51.279 of them went fast. Oh no, we have we have 0:38:51.400 --> 0:38:54.120 one in our refrigerator. I think it's I think it's 0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:55.800 it was in the freezer. It's now I think in 0:38:55.840 --> 0:38:59.840 the refrigerator and all incredibly excited to cut into it 0:39:00.040 --> 0:39:03.319 New Year's Yeah, do you do you guys do the 0:39:04.160 --> 0:39:06.399 because I know so we don't really have red bean 0:39:06.440 --> 0:39:09.560 ones I know there's like brown sugar ones or something 0:39:09.600 --> 0:39:12.960 that are like plain. Wait, I just wanted to check, 0:39:13.080 --> 0:39:18.640 like is it nanongal Yeah, or at least so like 0:39:19.120 --> 0:39:23.480 the sort of like flower thing that is like shaped 0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:28.640 like a semicircle. Yeah. Wait, yeah, I feel like there's 0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:33.120 different circle. Yeah. We usually cut them into like like 0:39:33.400 --> 0:39:36.400 square strips, but I think that's just like a cooking 0:39:36.760 --> 0:39:40.920 ease of cooking thing. Yeah, and it usually comes up 0:39:40.960 --> 0:39:46.120 like a date or something on top. Yeah, when it's packaged. 0:39:46.880 --> 0:39:49.840 That's so interesting because I feel like the nanal that 0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:53.600 I grew up with doesn't usually have a lot of 0:39:53.640 --> 0:39:57.600 things on it. It's kind of like sticky and kind 0:39:57.600 --> 0:40:00.759 of plain, and I'm just this is this is a 0:40:00.840 --> 0:40:05.799 new thing. Yeah. Yeah. The ones we usually get just 0:40:05.880 --> 0:40:08.080 has red beans in it, and then there's like the 0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:10.160 one day on the top. Oh, I don't know if 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:12.880 you're thinking of like towning Go, which is like a 0:40:12.960 --> 0:40:16.239 different type of dish um where it's like white rice 0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:20.040 cakes and then you you can like it's like saucy 0:40:20.520 --> 0:40:22.880 and then yeah, like different ingredients in it. Yeah, I 0:40:22.880 --> 0:40:25.040 think it's a different Ours are just that they're like 0:40:25.560 --> 0:40:28.920 they're they're pretty close to the yeah, I think I 0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:31.600 think I'm talking about the just regularly and golic. They're 0:40:31.800 --> 0:40:37.160 just like like they're they're they're they're basically plain, but 0:40:37.200 --> 0:40:40.200 there's some red bean like stirred into the dough and 0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:43.719 then it's just like the flat brown thing that you 0:40:43.840 --> 0:40:51.120 like fry. Yeah, all right, this is we've now done 0:40:51.200 --> 0:40:57.400 dessert chat. I would honest, honestly much much less grim 0:40:57.440 --> 0:40:59.200 time than most of the stuff that happens on here, 0:40:59.560 --> 0:41:01.719 and you have all been now subjected to it. I 0:41:01.920 --> 0:41:06.480 go eat Chinese New Year's food, it's great. Ah. Yeah. 0:41:06.880 --> 0:41:13.280 So on two things that are somewhat more grim um. 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:16.279 I think there's there's two big things I wanted to 0:41:16.360 --> 0:41:24.800 talk about that's sort of related to, like, I guess 0:41:25.719 --> 0:41:30.919 Chinese diaspora nous um. I guess we can start with 0:41:32.680 --> 0:41:36.320 talking a bit about anti asition violence and police violence, 0:41:36.480 --> 0:41:41.040 because I mean, it's not like so my sort of 0:41:41.120 --> 0:41:46.839 into this is that my my someone Okay. So one 0:41:46.880 --> 0:41:50.440 of the things that's happened in the past about two 0:41:50.520 --> 0:41:52.560 years was this the huge sort of spike and anti 0:41:52.600 --> 0:41:56.680 aition violence. But then you know, part of what happens 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:00.600 politically around that was there was a huge attempts to 0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:03.920 essentially turn antiation violence as you I guess like the 0:42:03.960 --> 0:42:06.640 anti PLM, like especially in the US, but I think 0:42:06.680 --> 0:42:09.719 I think this happened elsewhere too, where there was as 0:42:09.800 --> 0:42:14.160 it didn't I don't know, it worked in some places 0:42:14.200 --> 0:42:16.600 and didn't work in other places. So I went to 0:42:16.640 --> 0:42:20.080 the Research Chicago and a few is a few months 0:42:20.120 --> 0:42:21.840 ago now maybe it's a couple of a month that 0:42:21.880 --> 0:42:26.240 you ago, a Asian Chinese international student like got shot 0:42:27.320 --> 0:42:29.719 on campus and this turned into a huge sort of 0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:33.560 like bring more cops on campus. That there was a 0:42:33.600 --> 0:42:35.680 huge petition that got signed that was that people were 0:42:35.680 --> 0:42:39.120 like asking for security cameras and asking for our cops 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:42.000 and like the u c p D like a couple 0:42:42.000 --> 0:42:44.960 of weeks later just like shot a dude, and so 0:42:45.000 --> 0:42:47.160 that there there's been I've been seeing this tension a lot. 0:42:47.200 --> 0:42:48.879 I was wondering if YouTube had also sort of run 0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:53.360 into similar stuff and what your thoughts. We're on it, um. 0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:57.520 I mean, I feel like, unfortunately with Canada, there's like 0:42:57.560 --> 0:43:04.640 this dynamic where we looked to the States for news 0:43:04.680 --> 0:43:11.080 and validation in this weird way that I find really 0:43:11.160 --> 0:43:16.640 delegitimizes the unique struggles that are here, that are different 0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:23.880 um there are there's a different kind of police system. 0:43:23.920 --> 0:43:30.640 There's like the politcal police like Vancouver Police Apartment UM. 0:43:30.680 --> 0:43:35.000 But then there's also the RCMP, the Royal Mountain Canadian Police, 0:43:35.200 --> 0:43:40.120 which are in other the municipalities. And the RCMP was 0:43:40.239 --> 0:43:48.319 created specifically UM as a tool of settler colonialism to 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:54.799 enforce the Indian Act, which is UM, I guess the 0:43:54.840 --> 0:44:00.319 most succinctly way I can put it as segregation UM 0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:07.080 of Indigenous peoples from settlers. And there's a lot of 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:13.080 displacement of black communities across Canada. But and there was 0:44:13.120 --> 0:44:16.000 also slavery in Canada, even though we like to pretend 0:44:16.000 --> 0:44:22.000 that there wasn't. And so against this background, I guess 0:44:22.280 --> 0:44:27.759 UM and ongoing like police brutality, whether it's in what's 0:44:27.840 --> 0:44:34.040 atten territories or just the police killing people. There's a 0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:41.680 lot of mainstream Asian Canadian and Chinese Canadian institutions that 0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:46.799 are very very much complicit in the system. Like there 0:44:47.000 --> 0:44:52.719 is an organization, an immigrant Chinese Canadian organization in Vancouver 0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:56.920 who one of the board members is a cop who 0:44:57.080 --> 0:45:07.279 is married to a a city councilor. And a lot 0:45:07.320 --> 0:45:12.759 of the discourse that institutions not people themselves necessarily, but 0:45:12.840 --> 0:45:18.080 institutions create around. For example, the revitalization of Chinatown or 0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:22.640 the preservation of the culture is around Oh, there's graffiti 0:45:22.640 --> 0:45:26.200 in the neighborhood Chinatown, and Vancouver is in the downtown 0:45:26.200 --> 0:45:31.240 Eyside was just considered UM, the poorest post is considered 0:45:31.280 --> 0:45:35.040 the poorest post a cold in Canada, and it's like 0:45:35.080 --> 0:45:40.239 a tight knit community with a lot of Indigenous people's, 0:45:40.320 --> 0:45:47.520 black people, people in poverty, struggling against the poisoning massacre UM. 0:45:47.600 --> 0:45:52.839 Wherein the government is not providing UM safe supply and 0:45:52.920 --> 0:45:56.560 where the police just kind of like are everywhere pointing 0:45:56.560 --> 0:46:03.239 guns and everyone displacing the tens cities and so when 0:46:03.280 --> 0:46:06.960 there is an easy and not an easy but just 0:46:07.040 --> 0:46:12.760 like a demonized group of people that UM, the general 0:46:12.800 --> 0:46:17.000 public doesn't know enough about UM. If you walk through 0:46:17.040 --> 0:46:19.239 the downtowning Side and talk to people, you would talk 0:46:19.239 --> 0:46:24.160 to people about their experiences with residential school, their experiences 0:46:24.200 --> 0:46:30.360 with missing family members, experiences with poverty and in the 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:33.600 in the broadest terms, it's like the way that try 0:46:33.680 --> 0:46:37.680 and Town is being gentrified. People tend to blame the 0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:43.000 poor UM and there's like this divide and conqueror mentality 0:46:43.440 --> 0:46:48.279 within the Asian diaspora, whin the Chinese diaspora specifically, and 0:46:48.400 --> 0:46:56.160 so similar to what happened with Um Michelle Go. Similar 0:46:56.200 --> 0:47:00.279 to her UM, there was a South Asian elderly woman 0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:05.520 who a group of people who lived in the tensity 0:47:05.760 --> 0:47:10.279 had killed pretending to be cops when they knocked on 0:47:10.320 --> 0:47:14.280 her door, and the council, one of the city councilors 0:47:14.400 --> 0:47:18.240 UM in Vancouver was like this, we need to stop 0:47:18.280 --> 0:47:24.120 indulging in these tense cities. Um. Meanwhile, there's a lot 0:47:24.200 --> 0:47:27.600 of like marginalized people in these tense cities who who 0:47:27.920 --> 0:47:32.719 who can'ts UM, who need to live there because it's 0:47:32.800 --> 0:47:37.239 COVID times, and society has abandoned them. So it's like 0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:46.319 anti Asian racism and violence has also the hate, the 0:47:46.360 --> 0:47:50.920 so called hate crime thing has so apparently increased, UM. 0:47:51.040 --> 0:47:54.920 And I don't think that it's hasn't increased. It's just 0:47:55.080 --> 0:47:57.719 that like the way that the media, the way that 0:47:57.760 --> 0:48:06.560 the institutions within Canada is also jumping onto the police wagon, 0:48:07.160 --> 0:48:12.480 the police the hate crime angle, rather than learn from abolitionists. Rather, Yeah, 0:48:12.520 --> 0:48:15.080 this is a long way I'm putting it. It's like similar, 0:48:15.200 --> 0:48:19.239 it's similar, and I know a lot of details. Yes, yeah, 0:48:19.320 --> 0:48:21.080 I mean I think that, Yeah, I think that tracks. 0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:24.279 I mean the targets are slightly different just based on 0:48:24.320 --> 0:48:26.840 such a snears, but on the sort of local context. 0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:29.080 But I think that, yeah, that tracks a lot with 0:48:30.080 --> 0:48:33.360 what we've been seeing here, as I think there's a 0:48:33.400 --> 0:48:37.400 there's another thing that I don't know, so I I 0:48:37.440 --> 0:48:42.279 really don't like the term like because the did the 0:48:42.320 --> 0:48:45.080 Twitter hashtag is stop Asition hate, Like I hate that 0:48:45.400 --> 0:48:48.680 framing of it as sort of hatred and not racism. 0:48:48.719 --> 0:48:51.360 But even the sort of the anti Asian violence framing, 0:48:51.360 --> 0:48:54.680 which I've been used a lot, I think has problems 0:48:54.760 --> 0:48:57.040 because you know, I mean, this is one of the 0:48:57.040 --> 0:48:58.440 things you were talking about, one of the things that 0:48:58.480 --> 0:49:01.520 I've seen a lot. It's just you know, any time, 0:49:02.800 --> 0:49:07.919 like you know, there are genuine sort of racism attacks, right, 0:49:08.520 --> 0:49:11.600 but then there's also just like I mean, one of 0:49:11.640 --> 0:49:13.560 the sort of scare things that happened here was it 0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:15.160 was like a bunch of people's, like a bunch of 0:49:15.200 --> 0:49:17.880 restat Chinese restaurants got broken into and robbed, and everyone 0:49:17.960 --> 0:49:19.960 was like, well, this is anti Asian violence, and it's like, well, no, 0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:24.000 like this is just theft and and there there's there's 0:49:24.040 --> 0:49:27.680 been this sort of like collapsing of something bad happens 0:49:27.680 --> 0:49:32.600 to an Asian person with specifically sort of like targeted 0:49:32.880 --> 0:49:35.759 racist attacks, and I think that's been well, I mean, 0:49:35.760 --> 0:49:38.160 that's been a problem. And there's also the secondary problem 0:49:38.200 --> 0:49:41.680 of you know who even who even gets included in 0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:43.640 this in the first place. Like one of one of 0:49:43.640 --> 0:49:46.160 the biggest things I've been frustrated about is, you know, 0:49:46.360 --> 0:49:48.960 the sort of the selective inclusion of South Asian people, 0:49:49.080 --> 0:49:53.040 like I there there was there was a shooting at 0:49:53.040 --> 0:49:57.479 the fed X facility last year by a guy who 0:49:57.520 --> 0:50:03.120 was like very much, very far right, kind of like 0:50:03.239 --> 0:50:06.720 pilled online guy, and it killed a bunch of Seak workers, 0:50:07.239 --> 0:50:11.920 and there was never there was just nothing, even like 0:50:12.640 --> 0:50:14.719 no one talked about his anti Asian violence. But then, 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:17.279 you know, selectively, you get inclusions to South these Asian 0:50:17.280 --> 0:50:22.520 people when it's like it's it's it's like people get 0:50:22.560 --> 0:50:27.680 folded into being Asian when it's like useful to call 0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:30.640 from war police. But then when it's you know, not 0:50:30.760 --> 0:50:32.640 useful for that, or when it's you know, especially when 0:50:32.640 --> 0:50:35.800 it's working class people getting killed, there's just sort of nothing. 0:50:35.880 --> 0:50:39.160 And I've been I don't know. I've been really frustrated 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:42.960 by this dynamic a lot. Um. Yeah, And Jan, I 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:44.640 want to know what you think about this too, because 0:50:44.840 --> 0:50:49.480 I have no talks slong enough about Yeah. I mean, 0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:52.080 you know, wasn't there there was a hate crime build 0:50:52.080 --> 0:50:55.480 that was passed in Congress, right, uh, And there was supposedly, 0:50:55.560 --> 0:50:58.840 quote unquote supposed to be addressing all this quote unquote 0:50:58.920 --> 0:51:02.400 anti Asian eight stuff. And you know the only thing 0:51:02.400 --> 0:51:06.680 that accomplished was it created like some some government organ 0:51:06.920 --> 0:51:10.960 to like oversee these efforts to address hate crimes and 0:51:11.000 --> 0:51:13.680 then more funding for the police. Right. So I think 0:51:13.680 --> 0:51:15.640 it was it was a very kind of direct impact. 0:51:15.719 --> 0:51:20.560 We could just see how this discourse transformed into exactly 0:51:20.600 --> 0:51:23.440 what a lot of you know, organizers had said would happen, 0:51:23.560 --> 0:51:26.479 which is more funny for the police and not making 0:51:26.480 --> 0:51:30.880 communities safer. Right. So, Um, I think the real conendrum 0:51:30.920 --> 0:51:33.400 for me, and I think that really kind of you know, 0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:34.799 I spent a lot of time thinking about this, and 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:38.560 I get I get kind of frustrated. Is um you know, 0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:42.360 whenever these these attacks happen on you know, Asian heritage 0:51:42.440 --> 0:51:47.719 or Asian identified people. Um, the response, I mean, it's 0:51:47.760 --> 0:51:51.359 it's a good natured and it's well meaning, and I 0:51:51.400 --> 0:51:54.360 agree with it, but you know, the response is always 0:51:54.400 --> 0:51:58.600 like the telling folks who have been victimized or those 0:51:58.880 --> 0:52:03.880 who know them, um, that more police is not the answer, right, 0:52:04.520 --> 0:52:08.600 And you know, I think that's true. But then I 0:52:08.600 --> 0:52:10.879 think what I'm struggling with is how to make this 0:52:11.080 --> 0:52:15.959 message resonate with those folks, right, because I think there's 0:52:16.000 --> 0:52:18.680 a way that in some ways that can alienate them 0:52:18.719 --> 0:52:22.440 even more and make them even more reaction right, because 0:52:22.600 --> 0:52:27.640 that's you know, the media has often spun that argument. Uh, 0:52:27.840 --> 0:52:32.720 they use further instances of violence to spin that argument 0:52:32.719 --> 0:52:34.840 of like when when people say the answer is not 0:52:34.880 --> 0:52:37.600 more cops, it doesn't make it safer, the media is 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:40.160 able to spend that to say, look, this isn't working, right, 0:52:40.160 --> 0:52:42.960 It's that things are actually getting more dangerous all the 0:52:43.120 --> 0:52:47.000 kind of like scaremongering tactics with crime statistics and all 0:52:47.040 --> 0:52:50.279 that stuff, which are usually false anyway. So I think 0:52:50.360 --> 0:52:52.239 that's what I'm trying to figure out now, is like, 0:52:53.120 --> 0:52:56.600 you know, because in in Chinatown, l A, where you know, 0:52:57.120 --> 0:53:01.400 where I've done some work, there was community meetings with 0:53:01.520 --> 0:53:08.759 c c D, the Chinatown Committee for equitable. Uh, what's 0:53:08.760 --> 0:53:13.360 what's the de stand for? I always forget development. Um. 0:53:13.400 --> 0:53:15.920 They had some meetings with community folks to kind of 0:53:16.000 --> 0:53:17.920 like you know, hear what hear what they wanted to 0:53:18.960 --> 0:53:21.719 do to address this, and they kind of like a 0:53:21.719 --> 0:53:25.640 lot of those organizers had, um, you know, they're coming 0:53:25.680 --> 0:53:28.680 from that viewpoint that calling for more cops is not 0:53:28.719 --> 0:53:34.480 the answer, and so some of the mail they're from 0:53:34.480 --> 0:53:36.400 the community, but they're not. They weren't part of the 0:53:36.480 --> 0:53:39.960 kind of like senior population of Chinatown, which is you know, 0:53:40.000 --> 0:53:42.719 it's like what incomes seniors is kind of like are 0:53:42.800 --> 0:53:45.680 the folks that are being pushed out and by developers 0:53:45.719 --> 0:53:49.200 and all the gentrification happening as well. Um, some of 0:53:49.440 --> 0:53:51.240 some men were kind of like, okay, well we should 0:53:51.239 --> 0:53:56.799 start kind of like arnged neighborhood watch um. And you know, 0:53:56.880 --> 0:54:00.600 I think in some way that taps into this kind 0:54:00.600 --> 0:54:04.359 of like we protect us type of ethos, right, It's 0:54:04.400 --> 0:54:09.720 it's not relying on a state or government or whatever 0:54:10.200 --> 0:54:14.880 police paramilitary force. UM. But then I think the question 0:54:14.960 --> 0:54:19.320 that some folks had I heard the secondhand, was that, um, 0:54:19.360 --> 0:54:22.280 you know, are are these people actually from the community 0:54:22.280 --> 0:54:25.200 and are they actually doing this to address the needs 0:54:25.200 --> 0:54:28.439 of the folks who are most affected by it, right, 0:54:28.520 --> 0:54:31.640 And so I think some folks were uncomfortable with the 0:54:31.719 --> 0:54:36.319 idea that there should be these kind of like street patrols, UM. 0:54:36.360 --> 0:54:38.520 And so there's there's just so many different ways to 0:54:39.000 --> 0:54:42.359 approach this, and I haven't you know, I'm not laying 0:54:42.360 --> 0:54:44.719 way or anyone, but I just haven't seen an effective 0:54:44.719 --> 0:54:49.200 way to counteract that call for more police. Yet. That's 0:54:49.200 --> 0:54:54.239 a really good point because I feel like in when 0:54:55.760 --> 0:55:05.520 especially um Asian women, people who experience like various forms 0:55:05.560 --> 0:55:12.800 of sexual violence or um street harassment, UM, that sense 0:55:12.800 --> 0:55:19.680 of unsafety is amplified when we witness other people getting 0:55:19.760 --> 0:55:25.360 murdered in public spaces. And so I think in a 0:55:25.440 --> 0:55:29.440 way it's like understandable why people want to grasp for 0:55:30.280 --> 0:55:35.239 any kind of solution and and also why that kind 0:55:35.280 --> 0:55:42.120 of trauma can be weaponized or like taken advantage of immediately, 0:55:42.280 --> 0:55:46.520 Like just because I'm like, who asked for you to 0:55:46.680 --> 0:55:51.439 be street criptials of Chinatown? Who decided that you make 0:55:53.080 --> 0:55:57.120 the communities safer? Have you consulted the seniors? Have you 0:55:57.960 --> 0:56:00.560 have you talked with all of the seniors, all of 0:56:00.600 --> 0:56:04.480 the elders to ask them like how would you feel 0:56:04.480 --> 0:56:09.200 if I did that? Like where is that suggestion coming from? 0:56:09.280 --> 0:56:14.279 And I think that like the other argument is that 0:56:14.360 --> 0:56:20.160 like mental health resources is an alternative to policing, even 0:56:20.200 --> 0:56:26.120 though UM, policing and mental health systems are very, very 0:56:26.280 --> 0:56:31.839 very connected. UM Edward Wong has an article about that 0:56:32.239 --> 0:56:36.440 in Upping the Antie And I don't know. I just 0:56:36.480 --> 0:56:39.239 think that, like there has to be like a way 0:56:39.280 --> 0:56:43.440 to talk about this without invalidating each other's trauma and 0:56:43.560 --> 0:56:48.960 invalidating UM people survival instincts as well, because I feel 0:56:48.960 --> 0:56:53.200 like UM, for years, as someone who's done work in 0:56:53.239 --> 0:56:59.000 the anti violence sector, it's not that I wanted there 0:56:59.040 --> 0:57:01.839 to be more police. It's just that like a lot 0:57:01.840 --> 0:57:04.359 of survivors might be like, hey, I actually do want 0:57:04.360 --> 0:57:07.879 to use the court system because this person is dangerous. 0:57:08.400 --> 0:57:12.640 Like that's like, as somebody supporting a survivor, I can't 0:57:12.680 --> 0:57:16.480 just go up, no, you're wrong, less cops, right, Like 0:57:16.520 --> 0:57:22.360 that's that's not a compassionate response. And it's also not 0:57:22.440 --> 0:57:26.240 a compassionate response to go, hey, you're making this like 0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:29.760 all about yourself and you should likely be talking about 0:57:29.880 --> 0:57:33.080 like black and indigenous people like like like that's that's 0:57:33.120 --> 0:57:36.680 also really insensitive. So it's like, I feel like there's 0:57:36.720 --> 0:57:41.160 a way that there there is like a way to 0:57:41.200 --> 0:57:48.680 talk about abolition that really needs to respect every survivor 0:57:48.880 --> 0:57:53.800 or every like communities like trauma. And it's not an 0:57:53.840 --> 0:57:59.080 easy thing because it's not like our communities have had 0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:03.320 a good way to respond to trauma, like we haven't 0:58:03.360 --> 0:58:08.760 really like we're still breaking the cycles of intergenerational trauma. Yeah, 0:58:08.760 --> 0:58:10.720 and I think this this kind of comes back to 0:58:10.800 --> 0:58:14.880 another sort of difficulty of this whole project because you know, 0:58:14.960 --> 0:58:19.040 a lot of the sort of the abolitionist framework is 0:58:19.080 --> 0:58:26.840 about like transitioning things towards community solutions, but like what 0:58:27.040 --> 0:58:30.360 is that you know, like, what does that even mean 0:58:30.640 --> 0:58:33.840 when you're dealing with you know this this is this 0:58:33.880 --> 0:58:35.440 is part of the problem with well, okay, you have 0:58:35.560 --> 0:58:39.919 armed self defense groups, but you know what happens when 0:58:39.960 --> 0:58:41.920 inevitably and this is this is just something that happens 0:58:42.800 --> 0:58:44.480 just you know, this is this is this is the 0:58:44.560 --> 0:58:47.320 nature of security forces, right is eventually you're going to 0:58:47.360 --> 0:58:48.880 get abuters in it. And it's like, okay, well what 0:58:48.920 --> 0:58:52.320 happens then, and what happens when you know, like the 0:58:52.320 --> 0:58:55.040 abuses of people inside the community and and this is compounded, 0:58:55.080 --> 0:59:00.520 I think by this problem of like what like what 0:59:00.640 --> 0:59:05.240 even you know the I think I think there's there's 0:59:05.280 --> 0:59:08.640 there's there's a broader problem of like what Asian nous is, 0:59:08.720 --> 0:59:10.600 And there's a broader and this is this is also 0:59:10.680 --> 0:59:15.480 sort of localized problem of like what even like is 0:59:15.560 --> 0:59:18.840 the Chinese community at all? Because you're dealing with something 0:59:18.880 --> 0:59:21.520 that's incredibly fragmented, You're dealing people speak differ languages, You're 0:59:21.520 --> 0:59:24.680 dealing with people who have been in these places for 0:59:24.880 --> 0:59:26.280 you know, some people have been here for century, some 0:59:26.280 --> 0:59:30.760 people who have been here like two months. And I 0:59:30.800 --> 0:59:34.120 think that makes it really difficult in a lot of 0:59:34.120 --> 0:59:40.440 ways to sort of like even even just bring together 0:59:40.600 --> 0:59:43.080 something that could be a community. And I know, I 0:59:43.120 --> 0:59:44.919 know what happens, and I know you know, there's there's 0:59:44.920 --> 0:59:49.080 there's lots of different sort of like fragmented communities. But 0:59:49.080 --> 0:59:56.320 but I think it makes this harder because there isn't 0:59:56.320 --> 1:00:01.360 a sort of like ready made thing you can turn 1:00:01.480 --> 1:00:04.080 to and go, Okay, well this is how we're going, 1:00:04.160 --> 1:00:05.640 like this is a group of people and this is 1:00:05.680 --> 1:00:08.360 the sort of like social sphere, and this is the 1:00:08.360 --> 1:00:10.840 community that we're going to turn into sort of deal 1:00:10.880 --> 1:00:13.959 with this stuff. There's just this kind of a bunch 1:00:13.960 --> 1:00:17.560 of amorphous different groups. And then also you have the 1:00:17.560 --> 1:00:21.200 problem that like you know, if you're gonna talk about 1:00:21.200 --> 1:00:24.080 like political forces, nation communities, like the business associations are 1:00:24.080 --> 1:00:28.520 extremely powerful and you know, we have different objectives and 1:00:28.560 --> 1:00:32.960 they do, but they're also like extremely well organized in 1:00:32.960 --> 1:00:35.680 a way that most other sort of like Chinese groups aren't. 1:00:36.000 --> 1:00:37.680 I don't know that that's that's that's been where my 1:00:37.680 --> 1:00:41.920 thinking has been going on this. Yeah, I think, um, 1:00:42.080 --> 1:00:45.520 this there's some residents with what you're saying and the 1:00:45.600 --> 1:00:49.040 kind of dynamics that you're identifying and what I've kind 1:00:49.040 --> 1:00:53.080 of witnessed and experienced in like Hong Kong asport organizing 1:00:53.880 --> 1:00:56.760 and which I think, you know, there's a lot of 1:00:56.800 --> 1:01:02.200 overlap with that same type of like small business organization 1:01:02.280 --> 1:01:07.080 type of thing that usually dominates China towns across North America, 1:01:07.600 --> 1:01:10.240 which is the case in l A. And actually c 1:01:10.400 --> 1:01:13.440 CD spends a lot of time fighting the small business 1:01:13.720 --> 1:01:19.000 organizations UM because they are very friendly with developers UM 1:01:19.040 --> 1:01:23.400 and they're usually pro um you know, pro securitization and 1:01:23.960 --> 1:01:26.680 anti for folks and all that kind of stuff. So 1:01:27.160 --> 1:01:29.400 there is that that element right where a lot of 1:01:29.400 --> 1:01:32.840 the times, you know, you are fighting against people who 1:01:32.920 --> 1:01:36.760 might have to like same heritages for example, UM. And 1:01:37.120 --> 1:01:39.240 you know, for me personally, that's that's very much the 1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:42.480 case with Hong Kong aspert groups, right because you know, 1:01:42.560 --> 1:01:47.680 many of them are very conservative, are right wing and 1:01:48.360 --> 1:01:51.240 not only just kind of held personal beliefs, but advocate 1:01:51.320 --> 1:01:55.760 a lot for these kind of you know, these policies 1:01:55.760 --> 1:01:58.479 and politicians and all these different things that I really 1:01:58.520 --> 1:02:02.960 can't stand and I'm aligned against um. And you know, 1:02:03.120 --> 1:02:06.360 I think it's a lot of folks want to take 1:02:06.400 --> 1:02:08.680 the kind of pregnantious root of like we'll work with 1:02:08.720 --> 1:02:11.520 you on things that we where we have points of unity, 1:02:12.360 --> 1:02:16.600 otherwise we don't, Whereas you know, I guess some people 1:02:16.640 --> 1:02:18.760 see me as as a little bit more rigid in 1:02:18.800 --> 1:02:20.360 the sense that like, I don't want to work with 1:02:20.360 --> 1:02:24.280 these folks at all, because um, I see them as 1:02:24.400 --> 1:02:28.200 kind of themselves as as a force that is causing 1:02:28.400 --> 1:02:32.360 more hard than good, especially if with these Hong Kong 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:36.000 aspert groups, the usual mantra is like Hong Kong first, 1:02:36.040 --> 1:02:39.680 like everything that we do is is serving Hong Kong um, 1:02:40.040 --> 1:02:42.880 and that you in the desper that usually means kind 1:02:42.920 --> 1:02:48.040 of like non partisanship, lobbying, congress, all those different things, UM, 1:02:48.440 --> 1:02:52.360 and then kind of like completely ignoring or being agnostic 1:02:52.560 --> 1:02:58.320 of local and domestic issues. UM to oversimplify a little bit. So, 1:02:59.280 --> 1:03:01.120 you know, I think it's been on my mind a lot. 1:03:01.600 --> 1:03:03.760 I know your question was about Chineseness, but I guess 1:03:03.760 --> 1:03:06.120 for me that that kind of filters a little bit 1:03:06.200 --> 1:03:08.880 further down to like what is being a Hong Kong. Right. 1:03:09.840 --> 1:03:19.160 It's really difficult to organize with your specific quote unquote 1:03:19.600 --> 1:03:25.760 ethnic or diaspora community, and the the meaning of diaspora 1:03:26.200 --> 1:03:33.080 is not a cohesive community but people's memories of home. UM. 1:03:33.120 --> 1:03:37.840 It's like a difficult thing to kind of but I 1:03:37.920 --> 1:03:41.000 butt your head against because it's like you have your 1:03:41.600 --> 1:03:48.160 UM diversity, equity, inclusion framework of organizing, and then you 1:03:48.200 --> 1:03:53.480 have the every day like what what what these frameworks 1:03:53.520 --> 1:03:56.920 can't simplify, which is the tensions between your communities. Like 1:03:57.400 --> 1:04:05.320 I didn't grow up it experiencing overt racist violence when 1:04:05.360 --> 1:04:10.440 I grew up in Richmond. UM. Richmond is an extremely 1:04:10.760 --> 1:04:19.440 East Asian and Chinese suburb UM that saw first Um, 1:04:19.640 --> 1:04:22.160 not first, but just like at some point a wave 1:04:22.240 --> 1:04:28.040 of Hong Kong diaspora because of and then afterwards more 1:04:28.440 --> 1:04:33.040 like mainlanders UM, and so on the playground, somebody was like, 1:04:33.120 --> 1:04:37.680 are you from Taiwan mainland or or Hong Kong? And 1:04:37.960 --> 1:04:40.040 that was when I was like seven, And that was 1:04:40.120 --> 1:04:43.920 my introduction to what it means to be in diaspora 1:04:44.040 --> 1:04:49.080 in this particular kind of way, and UM being like 1:04:49.280 --> 1:04:53.320 just right like in that and in that, and and 1:04:53.440 --> 1:04:56.560 figuring yourself out within that and seeing how there was 1:04:56.640 --> 1:05:02.080 just an absence of community me because of how like 1:05:02.240 --> 1:05:08.480 these different geopolitical experiences have like separated us UM and 1:05:08.720 --> 1:05:12.800 made it more difficult. UM Like when we filter our 1:05:12.840 --> 1:05:16.720 parents political beliefs onto each other, it's kind of like 1:05:17.000 --> 1:05:23.560 this awkward thing. But but I think that like UM 1:05:23.640 --> 1:05:26.480 in in trying to contend with that in the in 1:05:26.560 --> 1:05:32.360 the present, it's sort of like, um, we have these 1:05:32.360 --> 1:05:36.760 older institutions that other people that that the older generations 1:05:36.760 --> 1:05:41.120 have built. What new things can we build? What things 1:05:41.320 --> 1:05:46.200 can we um? Because I feel like I'm I'm really 1:05:46.280 --> 1:05:51.760 rigid too, I'm like really not great at talking across 1:05:51.760 --> 1:05:54.240 the stile, and when I do, it's not it's not 1:05:54.480 --> 1:05:58.760 really about anything substantive it's like, hey, like, hi, it's 1:05:58.800 --> 1:06:01.160 good to see you know, Like, when you live in 1:06:01.200 --> 1:06:04.720 a place you you don't want to make like make enemies, 1:06:04.760 --> 1:06:10.600 but like, it's it's a really hard thing. Um, and 1:06:10.640 --> 1:06:13.960 it's even more heartbreaking when you find out slowly that 1:06:14.000 --> 1:06:18.640 people are just taking advantage of you, right like and 1:06:18.960 --> 1:06:22.400 I don't know, it's it's a it's a really difficult 1:06:22.400 --> 1:06:25.280 thing to organize against when you're like you all hate me, 1:06:25.800 --> 1:06:29.240 great love it. This has been they could Happen Here. 1:06:29.400 --> 1:06:32.080 Join us for part two of this discussion tomorrow. We're 1:06:32.080 --> 1:06:34.120 going to more detail on the state of the left. 1:06:34.480 --> 1:06:36.520 In the meantime, you can find us That Happened Here 1:06:36.560 --> 1:06:40.400 pod on Twitter, Instagram, and check out the Cool Zone 1:06:40.440 --> 1:06:55.720 for other shows that we need. Welcome Day Could Happen 1:06:55.800 --> 1:06:58.720 Here podcasts are recognizes that Lunar New Year's is not, 1:06:58.760 --> 1:07:01.680 in fact just one day, and in that spirit, our 1:07:01.720 --> 1:07:05.040 special New Year's episode is going on for a second day. 1:07:05.160 --> 1:07:08.160 So there's the rest of our conversation with Jane and Jane. 1:07:09.040 --> 1:07:10.680 You know. The other thing I wanted to script touch 1:07:10.760 --> 1:07:13.440 on like this is I think kind of deferenting off 1:07:13.480 --> 1:07:14.960 the topic, but I think is also something that I've 1:07:14.960 --> 1:07:18.080 been running into a lot, which is that like, you know, 1:07:18.200 --> 1:07:20.560 you have this kind of like you know, you have 1:07:20.600 --> 1:07:22.320 this kind of bind, right because on the one hand, 1:07:22.360 --> 1:07:25.200 you're stuck between you know, like a lot a lot 1:07:25.240 --> 1:07:28.560 of the organizing and sort of in Asian communities has 1:07:29.280 --> 1:07:32.520 all of these problems. And then you know, okay, well, 1:07:32.640 --> 1:07:34.440 you know the other thing that's happening is is the 1:07:34.480 --> 1:07:37.800 sort of mainstream American left and the mainstream American left. 1:07:37.800 --> 1:07:39.800 I think the Canadian left has problems similar problems with 1:07:39.840 --> 1:07:44.760 this is that like it's a bunch of just like 1:07:44.920 --> 1:07:46.480 it's a bunch of tankies, it's a bunch of people 1:07:46.520 --> 1:07:50.480 who love the CCP, it's a bunch of just we 1:07:50.560 --> 1:07:53.840 are genocide deniers and like people who think that every 1:07:53.840 --> 1:07:57.280 Asian person who like doesn't like the government is a 1:07:57.360 --> 1:08:01.080 cia psi op. And I don't know. This is something 1:08:01.080 --> 1:08:02.920 that I've like, I mean, I've I ran into a 1:08:02.920 --> 1:08:05.720 lot trying to i mean help people do in Hong Kong. 1:08:05.800 --> 1:08:10.400 Organizing is something I've run into just in like every organize, 1:08:10.400 --> 1:08:12.320 like I've run, I run into this an anarchist spaces 1:08:12.360 --> 1:08:17.799 to like it's it's just I don't know, it feels 1:08:17.840 --> 1:08:20.760 really bad because it's like like you're you're just sort 1:08:20.760 --> 1:08:24.000 of caught between and I guess it's sort of this 1:08:24.120 --> 1:08:26.200 is three way triangulation, right, because on the one hand, 1:08:26.240 --> 1:08:31.120 you have this sort of like you have the local 1:08:31.200 --> 1:08:33.439 dynamics with you know, the sort of the sentence of 1:08:33.479 --> 1:08:37.960 the sort of reactionary small business owners. You have this, 1:08:38.680 --> 1:08:41.519 you know, the Chinese community also being sort of split 1:08:41.600 --> 1:08:44.559 in between like pro and anti CCP factions, both of 1:08:44.560 --> 1:08:50.559 whom have like are absolutely chock full of fanatical right wingers. 1:08:50.720 --> 1:08:53.200 It's like, well, okay, it's like the CCP verse epoch times, 1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:55.960 and it's like I don't want any of them to 1:08:56.000 --> 1:08:59.320 win and then use them out, and you're caught in 1:08:59.360 --> 1:09:02.600 the middle of this sort of they're caught in the 1:09:02.640 --> 1:09:05.800 middle of this sort of I don't know, I think 1:09:05.800 --> 1:09:08.040 it's sort of like a fox geopolitical struggle, but like 1:09:08.280 --> 1:09:11.560 one of one of the big sort of ideological conflicts 1:09:11.560 --> 1:09:14.720 being between both the CCP in the US sort of 1:09:14.800 --> 1:09:17.360 like using the specter of each other to sort of 1:09:17.400 --> 1:09:22.120 like disturb their basis. And I don't know, I am 1:09:22.200 --> 1:09:25.559 incredibly frustrated by I'm incredibly frustrated by the way that 1:09:26.800 --> 1:09:28.920 these groups have expected like the ant CCP, like the 1:09:30.120 --> 1:09:34.080 pro CCP groups are sort of selectively been using and 1:09:34.320 --> 1:09:37.400 like selectively been using anti Asian violence, as you know, 1:09:37.479 --> 1:09:40.599 they basically making the reguments of the importance of anti 1:09:40.640 --> 1:09:43.280 Asition violence. Is that while this only happens because people 1:09:43.280 --> 1:09:45.080 say many things about the CCP, and if no one 1:09:45.240 --> 1:09:48.439 didn't like the CCP, then there wouldn't be any violence, 1:09:48.439 --> 1:09:51.880 even though like anti Asian violence here predates the existence 1:09:51.960 --> 1:09:55.679 of a communist party in China by centuries, like we 1:09:55.680 --> 1:09:59.040 we like the we we invaded, we invaded China, like 1:09:59.200 --> 1:10:05.760 how many times? At least twice, maybe three I think 1:10:05.800 --> 1:10:08.240 at least twice and maybe three times, like before there 1:10:08.320 --> 1:10:12.760 was a communist party, And so I don't know. I 1:10:12.080 --> 1:10:16.160 I feel trapped a lot between these dynamics and ways 1:10:16.200 --> 1:10:20.880 that are very frustrating. And yeah, I guess I want 1:10:20.920 --> 1:10:23.639 to open the floor to talk about that. I guess 1:10:23.680 --> 1:10:30.439 I see it as like co optation partly um, but 1:10:30.520 --> 1:10:36.080 I guess I also see it as how power works. 1:10:37.400 --> 1:10:42.120 Like I there's like this local paper and I was 1:10:42.200 --> 1:10:49.120 researching sort of the history of Chinese diaspora organizing locally, 1:10:50.000 --> 1:10:56.120 and there was a spat in the paper between two 1:10:56.160 --> 1:11:02.240 people who one of whom is from UM, a newer 1:11:02.439 --> 1:11:07.360 Hong Kong diaspora. There was like a whole spat um 1:11:07.400 --> 1:11:15.439 in the paper about his history, and there's the history 1:11:15.520 --> 1:11:20.719 of like those tensions are like written in the community itself, 1:11:20.800 --> 1:11:24.880 Like it's it's it's not a new thing that people 1:11:25.479 --> 1:11:28.960 argue about what happened on June four. It's not new 1:11:29.720 --> 1:11:33.880 that people are really mistrustful each other and that there 1:11:33.920 --> 1:11:41.840 are actual like government forces that infiltrate and create a 1:11:42.240 --> 1:11:48.120 like basically deny other people's struggles like UM when that 1:11:48.479 --> 1:11:52.840 the that government is themselves perpetuating it. And I guess 1:11:52.880 --> 1:11:57.120 it just is really hard when fellow organizers that you 1:11:57.200 --> 1:12:01.479 otherwise really like I want to get along with our 1:12:01.960 --> 1:12:08.120 our like uncritical of the state that has oppressed your family, 1:12:08.720 --> 1:12:11.599 because you're just kind of like you're kind of like, wait, 1:12:11.720 --> 1:12:15.280 so are we have we had a conversation about this, 1:12:15.520 --> 1:12:18.479 Like we clearly haven't talked eno if this is what 1:12:18.520 --> 1:12:21.320 you believe in. And it's just a little bit hard 1:12:21.360 --> 1:12:27.040 because it's like community building is not assuming that we're 1:12:27.040 --> 1:12:30.840 in solidarity. Community building is actually like doing that hard work, 1:12:30.920 --> 1:12:34.479 like what is your community experiencing and what is my 1:12:34.840 --> 1:12:39.960 community experiencing? How are we being like weaponized against each other? 1:12:40.880 --> 1:12:46.720 Like yeah, how are these governments like manipulating like communities? 1:12:47.320 --> 1:12:50.639 But that's like really hard when trust has been probably 1:12:50.680 --> 1:12:54.760 broken like the immediate Yeah, I think you're so right 1:12:54.800 --> 1:12:58.360 that it's it's really about cauotation and a lot of it, 1:12:58.560 --> 1:13:02.160 like what I've witnessed as really so much about UM. 1:13:02.200 --> 1:13:04.400 And this is like, like you're saying, Jane, this is 1:13:04.439 --> 1:13:07.720 a much older dynamic than you know just the past 1:13:07.760 --> 1:13:10.600 couple of years. Is like, uh, states being able to 1:13:10.720 --> 1:13:13.760 use this kind of home and desper of framework to 1:13:15.000 --> 1:13:21.640 um demand loyalty through like targeting desperate people's guilt UM. 1:13:21.680 --> 1:13:24.200 And so there's so many like guilty desper people I 1:13:24.240 --> 1:13:28.200 know who are like you know, usually from usually from 1:13:28.200 --> 1:13:30.800 a class perspective, right because they had the their family 1:13:30.800 --> 1:13:34.040 had the resources to leave or uh they were not 1:13:34.160 --> 1:13:38.080 born in the home country or whatever because of their 1:13:38.120 --> 1:13:41.400 family background, that type of thing, and they want to 1:13:41.439 --> 1:13:45.280 subsume that by taking this radical you know, anti U 1:13:45.360 --> 1:13:49.080 s anti Canada stands um, which is fine, Like obviously 1:13:49.160 --> 1:13:51.400 being anti us and anti Canada is a good thing, 1:13:51.600 --> 1:13:54.640 but um, the thing that's really kind of frustrated me 1:13:54.680 --> 1:13:57.200 the most is seeing these kind of like radical folks 1:13:57.720 --> 1:14:02.880 in North America, especially queer folks who are like they'll 1:14:02.880 --> 1:14:07.479 take the most reactionary positions against women and queer and 1:14:07.880 --> 1:14:12.320 you know LGBT folks in China, for example, by supporting 1:14:12.320 --> 1:14:16.240 a state that is repressing them. Right. So it's it's 1:14:16.240 --> 1:14:19.040 such cognitive dissonance to me, Like, I don't understand why 1:14:19.080 --> 1:14:23.560 these folks can't see, um that they're kind of perpetuating 1:14:23.600 --> 1:14:27.360 this violence in the service of this kind of overarching 1:14:27.400 --> 1:14:31.160 imperative of not ever saying anything bad about China because 1:14:31.160 --> 1:14:35.720 it will help, it'll it'll bolster the US propaganda war machine, 1:14:36.160 --> 1:14:39.760 which is like, there's absolutely a way that I mean 1:14:39.920 --> 1:14:44.439 that absolutely happens if you do that uh un carefully, right, 1:14:44.800 --> 1:14:47.839 if you just kind of repeat um us media narratives 1:14:47.880 --> 1:14:50.880 and stuff like that. But I think there's absolutely a 1:14:50.920 --> 1:14:54.640 way to do both right and um. To me, the 1:14:54.640 --> 1:14:58.120 way to do that is to not um support the 1:14:58.200 --> 1:15:01.040 state discourses that demand loy else from the dask broke, 1:15:01.200 --> 1:15:04.080 but to actually, you know, it's the grassroots thing, right, 1:15:04.080 --> 1:15:06.800 It's just kind of like we support career folks around 1:15:06.800 --> 1:15:09.400 the world who are struggling under oppression from their governments 1:15:09.439 --> 1:15:12.160 and that type of thing. Um, and being able to 1:15:12.240 --> 1:15:16.400 very carefully say that with nuance, UM, and to be 1:15:16.520 --> 1:15:20.360 against both at the same time, for example, UM, well 1:15:20.400 --> 1:15:23.680 that's really really difficult, right, um. And people have very 1:15:23.760 --> 1:15:27.400 kind of the triolic reactions when you try and do that. Um. 1:15:27.439 --> 1:15:31.080 As you know, she set up talk Chris, So I 1:15:31.080 --> 1:15:32.960 don't know this. This is still the contrum for me 1:15:33.000 --> 1:15:36.439 because I tend to take the more rigid stance against 1:15:36.640 --> 1:15:39.120 against these folks, but I know people who are very 1:15:39.200 --> 1:15:42.080 kind of they take a more compassionate stance, which is 1:15:42.120 --> 1:15:46.000 like these these are newly plus politicized youth. Um, they're 1:15:46.040 --> 1:15:49.720 just coming to a lot of these politics and positions. UM. 1:15:50.040 --> 1:15:52.880 And you know, being anti us is better than not 1:15:52.920 --> 1:15:55.280 being anti us, is It's what a lot of folks say, 1:15:55.360 --> 1:15:58.640 And you know, I agree to a certain extent. But 1:15:58.720 --> 1:16:05.280 then it's also like if they're being miseducated in these histories, UM, 1:16:05.520 --> 1:16:07.680 that's okay to a certain point when you're exploring and 1:16:07.720 --> 1:16:11.680 discovering these things and becoming radicalized. But you know, like 1:16:11.800 --> 1:16:14.479 Jane said, there's also these kind of material, direct impacts 1:16:14.479 --> 1:16:17.720 that you have on people that you work with, that 1:16:17.800 --> 1:16:20.280 you organized with, that that are your friends or loved ones, 1:16:20.920 --> 1:16:24.240 um that you know. That kind of explanation of like oh, 1:16:24.280 --> 1:16:27.439 they're just learning is like it's insufficient in that kind 1:16:27.479 --> 1:16:30.679 of individual way because you're still hurting people and threatening 1:16:30.680 --> 1:16:33.600 people around you, right, So I think there has to 1:16:33.640 --> 1:16:36.439 be a balance and like being able to steer folks 1:16:36.520 --> 1:16:41.320 in into these like non Stalinist, non statist directions even 1:16:41.360 --> 1:16:46.679 while they're discovering. I hate how we're even having to 1:16:46.720 --> 1:16:51.680 be like steering people into a non sell list perspective. 1:16:51.800 --> 1:16:56.479 I'm just like, I'm not a horny for stalent I 1:16:56.640 --> 1:16:58.479 like to think that pisces me off about this. It's 1:16:58.520 --> 1:17:00.720 just like like they're not even Illinist, Like this is 1:17:00.720 --> 1:17:03.080 the thing that's frustrating, Like if if, if if they 1:17:03.080 --> 1:17:06.839 were merely twentieth century Stalinists, we wouldn't be having this argument, 1:17:07.439 --> 1:17:10.280 because you know, twenty century Stalinism is like well, yeah, okay, 1:17:10.320 --> 1:17:13.960 like twenty centy Stalinist or anti market economy, and it's 1:17:14.000 --> 1:17:16.479 like no, they've they've somehow found a way to take 1:17:17.080 --> 1:17:20.679 literally the worst aspects of Stalinism and then be like okay, 1:17:20.680 --> 1:17:22.840 but what is what if what is stalinism but also 1:17:22.880 --> 1:17:24.880 capitalism good at the same time. And it's just like, 1:17:25.640 --> 1:17:28.760 how how did you do this? Like how how did 1:17:28.760 --> 1:17:33.000 you come up with an ideology that like I don't know, 1:17:34.200 --> 1:17:36.160 I mean, I I think I think also I think 1:17:36.200 --> 1:17:40.639 that's been frustrating to me about this is like it's 1:17:40.680 --> 1:17:45.840 a way of sort of of of it becomes this 1:17:45.880 --> 1:17:48.080 way of channeling you know, you have the diaspora guilt 1:17:48.080 --> 1:17:50.280 in the one hand, that you have just random sort 1:17:50.320 --> 1:17:54.519 of like white leftists sort of white guilt, and it 1:17:54.560 --> 1:17:58.720 becomes this way of like channeling that into this sort 1:17:58.760 --> 1:18:01.840 of follow anti racism where you know, you get you 1:18:01.880 --> 1:18:05.800 get people who are like actual professional like hacks, right 1:18:05.840 --> 1:18:09.600 like Roger Day for example, being like, uh, you know, 1:18:10.400 --> 1:18:12.080 to doing things like wow, if you, if you, if you, 1:18:12.400 --> 1:18:13.760 if you criticize this time you state it all that 1:18:13.840 --> 1:18:16.360 sinophobia and like you're directly leading to people getting killed. 1:18:16.400 --> 1:18:20.160 And it's like, no, that's not how this works. And 1:18:20.479 --> 1:18:26.360 there's this kind of it's it's it's it's this problem 1:18:26.400 --> 1:18:34.000 of they have this this fundamental inability to see Chinese 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:37.120 people as people and not a sort of undifferentiated mass 1:18:37.120 --> 1:18:41.000 that can be sort of rallied behind in ideology, And 1:18:44.200 --> 1:18:53.960 I don't know that's been I think weird to deal 1:18:54.040 --> 1:18:57.559 with because you know, like yeah, like you you're always 1:18:57.640 --> 1:19:00.320 just in in the Chinese communities, like you're always just 1:19:00.360 --> 1:19:03.000 you're just gonna have like you know that there's gonna 1:19:03.000 --> 1:19:04.519 be a few people who are just sort of like 1:19:04.800 --> 1:19:06.920 pro CCP right wingers. Right, that's just that's just a 1:19:07.000 --> 1:19:13.400 sort of defelo political position. But there's there's this way 1:19:13.479 --> 1:19:20.439 in which you get this, you know, people adopting I 1:19:20.439 --> 1:19:24.240 mean just things that like if you said this about 1:19:24.280 --> 1:19:26.400 any like white American for example, if you if you 1:19:26.479 --> 1:19:28.800 argued that any like a white American making a thousand 1:19:28.880 --> 1:19:31.839 dollars a year wasn't in poverty, like you just couldn't 1:19:32.040 --> 1:19:35.080 do it, you like, you know, it's it's it's literally impossible, 1:19:35.360 --> 1:19:37.479 like you you'd be laughing out of the room or 1:19:37.680 --> 1:19:39.600 you know, like you're you would you would you'd be 1:19:39.640 --> 1:19:41.599 like ratioed until the cows come home. But you can 1:19:41.640 --> 1:19:44.840 just but everyone and people just say this constantly, like 1:19:45.040 --> 1:19:46.439 this is just just a thing that was like well, 1:19:46.520 --> 1:19:48.400 if you look at poverty production, it's like, well Chinese 1:19:48.640 --> 1:19:52.920 China's eliminated absolute poverty. It's like, yeah, Okay, they a 1:19:52.960 --> 1:19:55.479 thousand dollars a year is outside of this now. And 1:19:55.520 --> 1:19:59.960 I think there's these ways in which it it'd be 1:20:00.040 --> 1:20:04.799 comes hard to intervene in this stuff because like every 1:20:04.880 --> 1:20:08.400 every Asian person, specifically we're Chinese person just becomes a 1:20:08.479 --> 1:20:11.599 sort of token that like you know, you just sort 1:20:11.640 --> 1:20:15.559 of like throw at each other as just like oh, well, yeah, 1:20:16.040 --> 1:20:18.120 here's the Chinese person who says that the CCP is good. 1:20:18.160 --> 1:20:20.200 It's like, well, here's another Chinese person who says that 1:20:20.280 --> 1:20:25.479 it's bad. And it's like you never It's like on 1:20:25.560 --> 1:20:28.559 both sides, whether whether the process people realize it or not, 1:20:28.600 --> 1:20:30.439 it's their agencies being sort of stripped by them, and 1:20:30.439 --> 1:20:33.880 they've they've been turned into this sort of instrumentalized like 1:20:35.200 --> 1:20:36.439 you know in the in the same thing that they're 1:20:36.439 --> 1:20:38.040 also doing to us is that they're turning into sort 1:20:38.040 --> 1:20:41.439 of these instruments that you can use to like back 1:20:41.520 --> 1:20:46.439 your own sort of brought in political agenda. And this, 1:20:49.360 --> 1:20:52.000 I don't know, like this has gotten me to just 1:20:52.160 --> 1:20:54.840 I I just don't work with these people anymore. Like 1:20:54.880 --> 1:20:58.000 we tried it, it was a disaster. They screwed us over. 1:20:59.760 --> 1:21:01.479 It's oh, I don't know, but but but I think 1:21:01.479 --> 1:21:03.960 that's that's a that's a lonely stance in a lot 1:21:03.960 --> 1:21:06.240 of ways. Like you know, if you take this kind 1:21:06.240 --> 1:21:10.800 of like hardline position, you're not gonna most people, even 1:21:10.800 --> 1:21:13.559 other people who don't support it, probably won't follow you there. 1:21:13.920 --> 1:21:17.840 I don't know, it's weird because I find a lot 1:21:17.880 --> 1:21:25.960 of organizing is really lonely. It's like it's not like 1:21:25.960 --> 1:21:30.400 like I want to boast around being like why aren't 1:21:30.479 --> 1:21:35.280 you all donatings? But that's not that's also guilt, right, 1:21:35.360 --> 1:21:39.479 that's like projecting guilt onto other people, um, and that's 1:21:39.479 --> 1:21:42.640 not an effective tool. And I think that like like 1:21:43.160 --> 1:21:46.679 so right, and addressing both the white guilt but also 1:21:46.720 --> 1:21:51.240 the diaspora guilt, and also just how frustrating it is 1:21:51.400 --> 1:21:55.880 to organize against the state when it's like two people, 1:21:55.960 --> 1:21:58.719 like three people doing it in a little group project 1:21:58.880 --> 1:22:01.920 for lack of a better word. But it's sort of like, 1:22:02.800 --> 1:22:07.040 how do we make this sustainable when it's so lonely? 1:22:07.320 --> 1:22:11.760 And how do we use the resources that are available 1:22:11.880 --> 1:22:19.120 to us two not replicate these systems yet again? And 1:22:19.800 --> 1:22:25.600 I guess when it comes to the left or progressive 1:22:25.880 --> 1:22:31.160 in Canada, it's like so frustrating because it's like there 1:22:31.280 --> 1:22:38.680 isn't actually a lot of community outreach to like racialized communities. 1:22:38.840 --> 1:22:44.519 There's no translation. There's a lot of like nonprofit work 1:22:44.880 --> 1:22:52.240 that is frankly very draining and co optive themselves. Um Like, 1:22:52.280 --> 1:22:55.160 it's it's a bunch of social service organizations in a 1:22:55.200 --> 1:22:58.679 trench code and a bunch of political organizations that don't 1:23:00.360 --> 1:23:03.040 work together or talk to each other in a trench coat. 1:23:03.320 --> 1:23:08.559 And um so I understand why youth would join like 1:23:09.560 --> 1:23:15.200 leftist like radical organizing, but it it's just really heartbreaking 1:23:15.200 --> 1:23:20.840 when it's you're they end up reading in reading groups 1:23:20.880 --> 1:23:25.080 where they're reading historical or so called historical texts that 1:23:25.880 --> 1:23:32.880 erase your histories. Like it it's just such a like 1:23:32.880 --> 1:23:38.759 like reading is great, like political education is incredible, um 1:23:39.439 --> 1:23:43.360 but I'm like it's hard not to grow resentful. So 1:23:43.439 --> 1:23:47.599 when the guy at the top is a university educated 1:23:47.600 --> 1:23:52.920 white dude and they're reading texts that literally erase your 1:23:53.040 --> 1:23:57.280 entire family, and it's, um that like yeah, for me, 1:23:57.320 --> 1:24:01.320 it's like just really personal that way. It's like there 1:24:01.360 --> 1:24:06.320 are people who are suffering in the present and you're 1:24:06.400 --> 1:24:10.400 reading a text by a white sociologist from the eighties, 1:24:11.040 --> 1:24:14.679 like like not like I'm like, it's not that like 1:24:15.200 --> 1:24:20.160 I I don't think that we should do that political education. 1:24:20.200 --> 1:24:24.600 It's just that like at a reading group, will you 1:24:24.680 --> 1:24:29.840 listen to me when I call you out? Yeah, I 1:24:30.360 --> 1:24:33.800 definitely you know, both of you saying that this work 1:24:33.920 --> 1:24:36.519 is really lonely, especially if you take if you stand 1:24:36.560 --> 1:24:38.840 up for yourself, for you you really kind of stand 1:24:38.880 --> 1:24:43.160 by your principles. It's I think that's so true. And um, 1:24:43.200 --> 1:24:44.880 you know, not to speak for everyone in laws on, 1:24:45.000 --> 1:24:49.240 but just my experience has been like you know, everyone 1:24:49.320 --> 1:24:53.640 just everyone hates us, like it's you know, we got 1:24:53.760 --> 1:24:55.479 hate from the right, we got hate from the left, 1:24:55.880 --> 1:24:59.639 um and from Hong Kong, asper from Hong Kong locals 1:24:59.680 --> 1:25:02.400 like it. It's just sometimes it's really hard to see, 1:25:03.320 --> 1:25:06.320 you know, because we're we're trying to stay true to 1:25:06.360 --> 1:25:10.519 our principles, but it's hard to see sometimes whether there's 1:25:10.520 --> 1:25:13.920 an impact or whether we're just kind of like in 1:25:13.960 --> 1:25:16.040 a little echo chamber with twenty other people, you know 1:25:16.080 --> 1:25:20.559 what I mean. And um, it's hard to find that 1:25:20.640 --> 1:25:24.960 balance because I don't want to become more and more 1:25:25.040 --> 1:25:27.840 pragmatists where I'm just like, all right, well you know, 1:25:27.840 --> 1:25:29.800 I'll work with these people, but I don't agree with 1:25:29.840 --> 1:25:32.360 them on these fundamental issues just on this one campaign 1:25:32.400 --> 1:25:35.000 or whatever happens to be. I don't know. I know 1:25:35.040 --> 1:25:37.439 that's a part of like building power quote unquote like 1:25:37.439 --> 1:25:41.040 that a lot of uh, certain socialist groups like to 1:25:41.080 --> 1:25:43.240 do or they're they're really focused on that kind of thing. 1:25:43.320 --> 1:25:46.280 But I don't know if it's too much of an 1:25:46.320 --> 1:25:49.280 academic view too, to be like, if you're going to 1:25:49.400 --> 1:25:52.840 do it that way, you're you're you're changing the outcome already, 1:25:53.000 --> 1:25:56.040 right because you're not addressing these kind of fundamental issues 1:25:56.080 --> 1:26:00.519 from the start um. And I think that view can 1:26:00.560 --> 1:26:03.200 sometimes lead to like a lot of non starters where 1:26:03.200 --> 1:26:05.040 you're just like things don't ever get off the ground 1:26:05.080 --> 1:26:10.439 because you insist on whatever fundamental principle that you that 1:26:10.520 --> 1:26:14.320 you want to stick to, uh like anti nationalism for example. 1:26:14.560 --> 1:26:19.400 So yeah, just just kind of reiterating and commiserating with 1:26:19.439 --> 1:26:22.360 you all on the long laitness of that. People think 1:26:22.479 --> 1:26:26.479 that like not working in these sort of united different 1:26:26.560 --> 1:26:30.040 things is this like sort of purityological position. But like 1:26:31.200 --> 1:26:35.360 you know, I mean so when when Occupy Ice was happening, right, 1:26:35.360 --> 1:26:38.559 Occupy Ice wound up being a kind of big friend thing, 1:26:38.560 --> 1:26:40.360 and one of the groups involved with it was was 1:26:40.360 --> 1:26:42.680 the Party for Socialism Liberation, who are this sort of 1:26:42.720 --> 1:26:49.400 like very much sort of like the basic tanking cult. 1:26:49.600 --> 1:26:52.040 Like there's not a lot of other horrible stuff that 1:26:52.080 --> 1:26:53.640 we will talk about at some point, but I mean, 1:26:53.680 --> 1:26:56.160 one of the things that happens, you know, Occupy ICE 1:26:56.280 --> 1:26:59.800 is that they you know, in Philadelphia, they destroy the 1:27:00.000 --> 1:27:05.200 atmant like they convince enough people to just leave and 1:27:05.200 --> 1:27:07.479 do this completely pointless like march they can do a 1:27:07.479 --> 1:27:09.439 photo op of like people in front of the Mayor's 1:27:09.439 --> 1:27:11.280 office and they do it, and they camp collapses because 1:27:11.280 --> 1:27:13.240 suddenly there's not enough people. You know, they don't even 1:27:13.240 --> 1:27:14.719 get a majority of the people, but it doesn't matter 1:27:15.000 --> 1:27:18.160 because they pulled enough people out that you know that 1:27:18.200 --> 1:27:20.800 the camp couldn't be held against the cops anymore. And 1:27:20.840 --> 1:27:22.680 I think that in some senses this is kind of 1:27:22.720 --> 1:27:25.840 microcosm of what they what these people actually do, which 1:27:25.880 --> 1:27:27.800 is that you know that these people will never have 1:27:27.840 --> 1:27:31.040 any actual institutional power, right you know that they're they're 1:27:31.080 --> 1:27:33.320 never going to create their like salentist state or whatever 1:27:33.400 --> 1:27:34.800 like that, They're never going to get this. They're they're 1:27:34.800 --> 1:27:37.559 never gonna hold any power. What they can do is 1:27:37.720 --> 1:27:39.599 there are enough of them, they can they can siphon 1:27:39.680 --> 1:27:43.599 off enough people from actual leftist movements into this sort 1:27:43.640 --> 1:27:46.439 of just like white room pro capitalist stuff that they 1:27:46.439 --> 1:27:48.599 can they can cause Peopen's to collapse. And I mean 1:27:48.600 --> 1:27:50.719 they've done this. They did a lot of this stream 1:27:51.400 --> 1:27:54.880 the uprising, and there is a lot of them, you know, 1:27:54.960 --> 1:27:57.519 intentionally leading people on pointless marches. There's a lot of 1:27:57.520 --> 1:27:59.080 cop werting with the police and stuff like that. And 1:27:59.280 --> 1:28:04.639 I think that, you know, it's it's it's like having 1:28:04.760 --> 1:28:09.120 seen that like multiple times, right I I you know, 1:28:09.800 --> 1:28:11.800 I you know, for me, like not working with him 1:28:12.360 --> 1:28:16.120 is an incredibly pragmatic position because we tried it and 1:28:16.640 --> 1:28:20.760 they blew it up. But it's this problem especially you know, 1:28:20.760 --> 1:28:23.040 you have people who are radicalized in and it's like, 1:28:23.080 --> 1:28:24.760 well yeah, I mean, I don't know, like a lot 1:28:24.760 --> 1:28:26.880 of them never saw this stuff, right, don't know who 1:28:26.880 --> 1:28:29.559 these people are, and their first instruction to the left 1:28:29.600 --> 1:28:32.759 is just like incredibly well financed I like media blitz, 1:28:33.760 --> 1:28:37.160 and I think that has you know, I think that 1:28:37.200 --> 1:28:41.880 has consequences both for us as sort of like people 1:28:41.920 --> 1:28:45.320 on the left doing like Chinese people on the left 1:28:45.360 --> 1:28:47.439 doing our own desport organizing, and it has consequences for 1:28:48.320 --> 1:28:50.120 the broader left, and like you you can see other 1:28:50.160 --> 1:28:54.920 sort of versions of this right where you know, you 1:28:55.120 --> 1:28:56.720 have a sort of right wing we've been infiltrating left 1:28:56.720 --> 1:28:58.640 to spaces and destroying them like they're they're like there 1:28:58.640 --> 1:29:02.200 were there was thing do cream Resistance basically blew up 1:29:02.240 --> 1:29:04.880 a like an anti lithium protest of the u S 1:29:04.920 --> 1:29:09.479 by just like going there and just hammering transphobia constantly. 1:29:10.439 --> 1:29:13.559 And so I don't know, I think there's there's this 1:29:13.600 --> 1:29:20.120 sort of dilemma because fundament like they will say a 1:29:20.120 --> 1:29:21.680 lot of the same things we do, but we have 1:29:21.680 --> 1:29:27.920 fundamentally different goals and that manifests itself at you know, 1:29:28.200 --> 1:29:31.560 on the level of of of organizing individual campaigns. But 1:29:31.600 --> 1:29:35.320 it's something that's really hard to get people to see. 1:29:36.320 --> 1:29:40.080 I think we've lost a lot of movements because of it. Yeah, 1:29:40.080 --> 1:29:42.080 And not to be you know, not to pile on 1:29:42.080 --> 1:29:48.080 the synicism or anything, but I think I honestly do think, uh, 1:29:48.160 --> 1:29:50.400 you know, as all those new Cold War stuff brants up, 1:29:50.439 --> 1:29:55.519 which is like completely independent of what a lot of folks, 1:29:55.680 --> 1:29:59.840 like grassroots folks are even thinking or advocating. It's all 1:30:00.040 --> 1:30:03.720 is kind of up to the the two uh, you know, 1:30:03.800 --> 1:30:07.280 Chinese and US governments as they ramp up their own tensions. 1:30:07.840 --> 1:30:10.760 I think it's really going to start, like people are 1:30:10.760 --> 1:30:13.920 going to start these people who are um, you know, 1:30:13.960 --> 1:30:17.400 tankys or whatever, are going to start narrowing our choices 1:30:17.800 --> 1:30:21.280 further and further, right, like, you know, as soon it's 1:30:21.320 --> 1:30:24.200 going to be an athema to to not you know, 1:30:24.320 --> 1:30:27.680 take the into us position. And that's it, you know 1:30:27.720 --> 1:30:31.360 what I mean. And I think that's really scary to me. 1:30:32.200 --> 1:30:35.720 I don't I last year, I thought there was still 1:30:35.800 --> 1:30:40.080 room for intervention, but things are closing so quickly. And 1:30:40.840 --> 1:30:43.360 you know, my personal opinion is that a lot of 1:30:43.400 --> 1:30:46.960 these kind of bigger groups like No Cold War UM 1:30:47.400 --> 1:30:51.360 and others like Code Pink are are definitely being you know, 1:30:51.360 --> 1:30:54.280 they have much more funding than a lot of other 1:30:54.320 --> 1:30:59.080 groups who are boarding more nuanced positions. And so like 1:30:59.120 --> 1:31:01.160 you're saying, it's just like these media blitz is that 1:31:01.320 --> 1:31:05.320 these shiny events and all those different things are very 1:31:05.360 --> 1:31:08.880 appealing to newly radicalize folks, right because I think that 1:31:08.920 --> 1:31:10.880 this this is where the power is and this is 1:31:10.920 --> 1:31:15.599 where we can actually make a difference, um and yeah, 1:31:15.680 --> 1:31:18.799 things to meet things look pretty bleak in the near future. 1:31:19.600 --> 1:31:23.040 I mean, it just takes one. Yeah, yeah, I will 1:31:23.080 --> 1:31:25.759 say I think I think they made one major Sita's mistake, 1:31:25.800 --> 1:31:28.120 which is they tried to do the the push the 1:31:28.160 --> 1:31:31.120 giant like new cold warward China thing at the exact 1:31:31.240 --> 1:31:34.080 moment of the US and Russia were like heating up 1:31:34.080 --> 1:31:36.639 in actually, and this left them like kind of off 1:31:36.680 --> 1:31:39.200 balance because they've been for the last two years the 1:31:39.240 --> 1:31:41.920 whole things when the US is going to accelerate tensces 1:31:41.920 --> 1:31:44.479 with China, usentions with China, and then it turns out 1:31:44.479 --> 1:31:47.600 that they're not doing that and in fact, like they're 1:31:47.600 --> 1:31:50.200 gearing up for just more proxy word stuff with Russia, 1:31:50.200 --> 1:31:51.759 which the thing they've been doing for the past decade. 1:31:52.479 --> 1:31:53.960 So I think, like, I don't know, like I think 1:31:54.000 --> 1:31:59.680 they their problem essentially is that they run into reality 1:31:59.800 --> 1:32:03.040 and there are certain points at which, like, you know, 1:32:03.160 --> 1:32:08.160 you you can lie a lot, right, but when when 1:32:08.160 --> 1:32:10.360 when the lie that you're pushing is about what the 1:32:10.360 --> 1:32:12.720 mainstream media is going to say, and the mainstream if 1:32:12.760 --> 1:32:16.679 you just pivots and it's just completely about something that's 1:32:16.800 --> 1:32:19.559 entirely unrelated, Like I think I think that hurts, and 1:32:19.640 --> 1:32:21.160 I think the everything that the other problem they have 1:32:21.360 --> 1:32:24.639 that that makes me hopeful is that the way there 1:32:24.880 --> 1:32:28.240 their base is getting split by just the anti vax grifters, 1:32:28.760 --> 1:32:32.360 because so many of their media people just you know, 1:32:32.439 --> 1:32:35.519 are just are just full on drifters, and you know, 1:32:35.560 --> 1:32:37.920 and you're you're seeing splits right now and gray zone 1:32:37.920 --> 1:32:40.840 about like basically between pro and anti vax factions. And 1:32:40.880 --> 1:32:44.639 I think that also will help us in the long run, 1:32:44.760 --> 1:32:49.639 because you know, say what you want about most leftists 1:32:49.640 --> 1:32:53.479 and even most tankies, like anti vax is like a 1:32:53.520 --> 1:32:55.960 bit far even for them, and because you know, and 1:32:56.040 --> 1:32:59.479 the other things like the the it's it's hard to 1:32:59.560 --> 1:33:04.720 do t vacs without beginning to take positions that just 1:33:05.960 --> 1:33:10.160 like it's been baked into just sort of anti Chinese 1:33:10.200 --> 1:33:14.080 racism in so many ways that like you can't really 1:33:14.320 --> 1:33:19.040 like you know, like you can't simultaneously be pro incredibly 1:33:19.080 --> 1:33:20.920 CCP and then also be talking about how the US 1:33:21.000 --> 1:33:24.080 is trying to implement social credit, right, you know, these 1:33:24.280 --> 1:33:26.960 are these these positions are just contradictory, and I think 1:33:28.840 --> 1:33:31.360 that's something that plays to our advantage and I think 1:33:31.560 --> 1:33:37.639 is weakening them to some extent because they've they tried 1:33:37.680 --> 1:33:39.519 to have their cake and eat it too, and now 1:33:39.600 --> 1:33:42.760 they're sort of I don't know, they're they're their conspiracy 1:33:43.040 --> 1:33:48.280 theory base is interfering with their like left base in 1:33:48.560 --> 1:33:52.080 ways I think you're helpful for us. It's just so 1:33:52.200 --> 1:33:58.759 interesting how like the anti vax position is literally rooted 1:33:59.000 --> 1:34:05.519 in races um and ableism like. Um there's an article 1:34:05.560 --> 1:34:09.519 in The Conversation called the inherent racism of the anti 1:34:09.600 --> 1:34:14.839 vax movement that has like really good history around white 1:34:14.880 --> 1:34:22.120 settlers being afraid of African medicine um um. And then 1:34:22.160 --> 1:34:27.280 there there's also just the able ism of assuming that 1:34:27.360 --> 1:34:32.000 your kid will get autism if you get vaccinated. That 1:34:32.080 --> 1:34:35.440 was that that's been a huge thing before the pandemic, 1:34:35.560 --> 1:34:39.880 and that was part of how this was effective in 1:34:39.880 --> 1:34:46.759 the first place. And um yeah, and obviously the anti 1:34:46.840 --> 1:34:54.559 Chinese um like uh anti Asian like scapegoating as well. 1:34:55.439 --> 1:35:00.559 But um, I guess that also ties into just how 1:35:00.640 --> 1:35:07.479 broadly ablest the left is and how like disability justice 1:35:07.720 --> 1:35:11.679 is not something that a lot of people know about 1:35:12.160 --> 1:35:17.600 um or care about. And it's yeah, I don't know, 1:35:17.640 --> 1:35:21.800 it's a huge problem for me as a disabled person. Yeah, 1:35:21.840 --> 1:35:23.720 I wanted to add really quickly too. I mean, I 1:35:24.040 --> 1:35:27.120 totally agree with you, and you know, I think one 1:35:27.120 --> 1:35:29.920 of the pernicious things that I've noticed though, is like 1:35:30.000 --> 1:35:34.960 these kind of big, you know, quote unquote anti imperialist accounts, 1:35:35.000 --> 1:35:39.719 like on Instagram for example. Um, they take this anti 1:35:39.800 --> 1:35:44.960 vax position precisely by saying that it's anti racist to 1:35:45.040 --> 1:35:47.400 take that position, which is like, it sounds that sounds 1:35:47.439 --> 1:35:50.400 very count intuitive. It is not that does not reflect reality. 1:35:50.520 --> 1:35:56.120 But they will point to instances of you know, anti 1:35:56.160 --> 1:36:00.920 black us um US medicine for example, bowl you know, 1:36:00.960 --> 1:36:04.840 like the Tusky experiments, and then say this is why 1:36:04.840 --> 1:36:07.280 we shouldn't trust the U. S. Government on any of this, right, 1:36:07.280 --> 1:36:09.599 because look what they've done in the past. And it's 1:36:09.640 --> 1:36:11.840 like that logic makes a lot of sense in a 1:36:11.840 --> 1:36:15.799 lot of ways, right, But you know, they obviously ignore 1:36:16.040 --> 1:36:19.759 the impacts that you know, anti vax UH and COVID 1:36:19.840 --> 1:36:24.320 has had on you know, black and other POSD populations. Right. 1:36:24.920 --> 1:36:27.840 So I think I don't know if it's exactly like, 1:36:27.920 --> 1:36:30.760 I don't know if it is appearing as hypocrisy to 1:36:30.800 --> 1:36:33.400 those people and then their audiences too, right, because I 1:36:33.400 --> 1:36:36.080 think they're able to spin it in this in this way. Yeah, 1:36:36.160 --> 1:36:38.320 but I think I think my my my argument here 1:36:38.360 --> 1:36:40.080 is I don't think those are the same. I don't 1:36:40.120 --> 1:36:42.320 think those are the same basis, Like, I don't I 1:36:42.360 --> 1:36:49.280 don't think that the majority of the Tanky base are 1:36:49.360 --> 1:36:51.439 people who are anti factors. And you know that you 1:36:51.640 --> 1:36:53.760 can see a line of this right of of you know, 1:36:53.840 --> 1:36:55.679 like one of the big things that like they're they're 1:36:55.680 --> 1:36:57.599 they're obsessed with sort of like with the Cuban health 1:36:57.600 --> 1:37:00.840 care system, right and like Cuba's Cuba vaccines. You see 1:37:00.880 --> 1:37:02.920 this stuff from them a lot, and you know, and 1:37:02.960 --> 1:37:05.280 they also talk about like, yeah, like China's doing really 1:37:05.320 --> 1:37:10.040 well accating COVID, And I don't think those positions are 1:37:10.479 --> 1:37:13.080 like I don't think those people are the same people 1:37:13.120 --> 1:37:16.000 who are also turning around and then talking about how 1:37:17.000 --> 1:37:20.720 like you know, talk doing the experiments the vaccines are 1:37:20.720 --> 1:37:25.360 actually like racism thing. I think I think there's some 1:37:25.520 --> 1:37:28.200 overlap between them, but but I don't think that those 1:37:29.040 --> 1:37:32.559 basses line up enough for it to you know, not 1:37:32.720 --> 1:37:38.240 have the effect of just kind of like tearing them apart. 1:37:38.320 --> 1:37:41.400 As their media people flip into into one of the 1:37:41.439 --> 1:37:43.599 sort of camps. And I think the other thing like 1:37:45.160 --> 1:37:46.920 you know, if if you look at what's happening with like, 1:37:47.320 --> 1:37:49.760 uh like Max Bluemadal right now, is that he's just 1:37:49.840 --> 1:37:53.759 like full on like like he's just full on touring 1:37:53.960 --> 1:37:57.519 with like just straight up right wingers to an extent 1:37:57.600 --> 1:38:01.400 that even like even people being habituated by the sort 1:38:01.400 --> 1:38:04.400 of like Syria false flags stuff into sort of working 1:38:04.439 --> 1:38:08.679 with right wingers, Like you can't look at these people 1:38:10.000 --> 1:38:12.719 that you know, there's just these actually just like Republican 1:38:12.760 --> 1:38:16.760 and operatives and be like, well, okay, we're we're on 1:38:16.800 --> 1:38:19.160 the side of these people and also like support Cuba. 1:38:19.200 --> 1:38:21.360 I just I don't know, I I have I have 1:38:21.439 --> 1:38:25.559 some faith in these groups being separate and they're being 1:38:25.880 --> 1:38:28.920 there being a point of cognitive dissonance where the system 1:38:28.960 --> 1:38:34.559 braced beause I guess I've seen people who have gotten 1:38:34.760 --> 1:38:38.760 out of tanky is M by having to interact with 1:38:38.760 --> 1:38:42.880 the actual CCP, and and that that that that gives 1:38:42.920 --> 1:38:45.040 me hope that there's there, there's there's a point of 1:38:45.080 --> 1:38:50.400 cognitive dissonance at which it falls apart. And I don't know, 1:38:50.760 --> 1:38:54.040 maybe maybe I'm just sort of like hope am in here, 1:38:54.120 --> 1:39:00.679 But I feel like it's so interesting how like there 1:39:00.720 --> 1:39:03.240 are a lot of people for whom politics is a 1:39:03.280 --> 1:39:08.880 parlor game and not their every day like lived experience, 1:39:09.000 --> 1:39:12.880 Like I would not be so like like if I 1:39:12.920 --> 1:39:17.679 see my communities struggling, um, and when people are dying 1:39:17.920 --> 1:39:23.080 or people are really like struggling with intragenerational trauma, I'm 1:39:23.120 --> 1:39:29.360 not gonna sit here and pontificate and theorize about like, um, 1:39:29.560 --> 1:39:34.599 things that don't impact my communities. Um. And yeah, Like 1:39:34.640 --> 1:39:40.120 the angle about classes so important here because it's like 1:39:41.040 --> 1:39:47.479 a lot of people can't insulate themselves from like the 1:39:47.520 --> 1:39:52.040 broader communities around them. Like if you're going around saying 1:39:52.160 --> 1:39:55.880 untruths in the media and your communities are like, hey, 1:39:55.920 --> 1:39:58.960 that that makes no sense, Like, um, if you're actually 1:39:59.000 --> 1:40:03.400 connected to both, like like you would hopefully unless you're 1:40:03.600 --> 1:40:07.479 just a big asshole, um, you would hopefully take some 1:40:07.520 --> 1:40:13.120 accountability for what you're saying. Um. And yeah, I just 1:40:13.479 --> 1:40:16.200 I just worry because this pandemic has also like really 1:40:16.200 --> 1:40:21.360 isolated people, like they people are not like talking to 1:40:21.400 --> 1:40:25.160 each other, and that makes it more easy for people 1:40:25.200 --> 1:40:27.840 to to be like, oh, I'm I'm just right, like 1:40:27.920 --> 1:40:31.479 this is my perspective, and I just yeah, I think 1:40:31.520 --> 1:40:36.160 about that the conditions in which we come to certain conclusions, 1:40:36.200 --> 1:40:39.560 like the conditions under which we become more vulnerable to 1:40:39.720 --> 1:40:45.839 culti type things or like oversimplified like understandings of history. 1:40:45.960 --> 1:40:50.680 Because like, I feel like the the anti vax uh 1:40:50.960 --> 1:40:56.120 like not taking the vaccine being uh anti racist is 1:40:56.120 --> 1:41:05.320 a very like manipulative like argument because it ignores the 1:41:05.360 --> 1:41:09.800 fact that these experiments um on black and indigenous people 1:41:09.800 --> 1:41:15.200 in North America and beyond, or like about neglect and 1:41:15.240 --> 1:41:21.640 are about um deliberately deliberate ongoing genocide and how like 1:41:21.720 --> 1:41:26.680 it's completely understandable for for people to not trust the government. 1:41:27.080 --> 1:41:32.519 But but like when the vaccine is actually a tool 1:41:32.680 --> 1:41:37.000 of protecting people, Like, there's not a lot of like 1:41:37.160 --> 1:41:42.840 campaigns other than people who are uh rooted in disability 1:41:42.960 --> 1:41:46.519 justice saying, hey, vaccines are like here to protect us, 1:41:47.080 --> 1:41:49.880 and how can we make how can we make like 1:41:49.960 --> 1:41:54.280 a like, how can we resist the medical industrial complex 1:41:54.479 --> 1:41:58.240 enough such that we can make people feel safer taking 1:41:58.280 --> 1:42:02.120 them at vaccine? How can we bring people in as 1:42:02.160 --> 1:42:08.440 opposed to fearmongering? Because I think that fear is so powerful. 1:42:08.479 --> 1:42:11.960 It's like, once you're afraid, you're you're not gonna You're 1:42:12.000 --> 1:42:15.719 not going to even look into the research, right, So 1:42:15.880 --> 1:42:18.519 I don't know. For me, I just think of all 1:42:18.600 --> 1:42:21.800 of this as like manipulation and human psychology on a 1:42:22.160 --> 1:42:27.800 on a like broad social basis, because it's like the 1:42:28.120 --> 1:42:30.680 stage is a big cult and these little groups are 1:42:30.760 --> 1:42:36.800 little cults. Yeah, do you have any other things you 1:42:36.800 --> 1:42:42.400 want to say before we head out? Happy new here? Yeah, 1:42:42.880 --> 1:42:47.240 you're the Tiger. I'm looking forward to retweeting art like 1:42:47.680 --> 1:42:53.240 actually Obruary not January one. Yeah, yeah, we should, I 1:42:53.280 --> 1:42:58.000 think my okay, okay, closing less depressing question. Yeah what 1:42:58.000 --> 1:43:01.560 what what do you think is the etiquette I'm retweeting? 1:43:02.240 --> 1:43:04.680 I like you every retweeting like you're the Tiger art 1:43:04.840 --> 1:43:12.439 before the actually before like Lunar New Year's. I've been 1:43:12.479 --> 1:43:14.559 torn on it because I just I like the art, 1:43:14.640 --> 1:43:19.280 but also I'm like, it's not the years yet, I 1:43:19.320 --> 1:43:25.480 haven't seen any I guess. I guess I'm lucky. I 1:43:25.560 --> 1:43:30.880 have been either guilty or just not guilty, depending on 1:43:31.120 --> 1:43:34.160 how you see it. Like I have retweeted all of 1:43:34.200 --> 1:43:38.200 the tiger art on January first because I did not care. 1:43:38.479 --> 1:43:42.599 I wanted to see the tigers, um. But I hope 1:43:42.600 --> 1:43:45.400 that I see more tigers like in the coming days, 1:43:45.479 --> 1:43:48.519 because if the tigers aren't coming or if we aren't 1:43:48.520 --> 1:43:53.040 retweeting it, that that is an issue. Like there needs 1:43:53.040 --> 1:43:55.439 to be like a second like a like a like 1:43:55.479 --> 1:43:58.320 a like like a like a second wave of the 1:43:58.360 --> 1:44:06.759 tiger art sure to all of the artists. Well alright, 1:44:06.800 --> 1:44:10.200 So if if people want to find you or work 1:44:10.280 --> 1:44:13.080 that you have that you want people to find where 1:44:13.160 --> 1:44:15.200 where where can they do that? Or if you also 1:44:15.280 --> 1:44:17.080 do not want them to find you, that is completely 1:44:17.080 --> 1:44:21.639 also valid. The Internet is terrible and a mistake. Yeah, 1:44:21.680 --> 1:44:26.080 I mostly and do not perceive me mode um completely valid. 1:44:27.360 --> 1:44:29.519 If you want to check out a low song stuff 1:44:29.560 --> 1:44:33.439 feel free Low song collective dot com, it's good work. 1:44:34.320 --> 1:44:41.320 My social media is um keipakal poetry um on Instagram. 1:44:41.680 --> 1:44:48.799 I uh um. I have this graphic that I've turned 1:44:48.840 --> 1:44:56.320 into a sticker and it's raises funds for families who 1:44:56.400 --> 1:45:00.160 were affected by the fires and floods. Um. It's a 1:45:00.240 --> 1:45:05.560 sticker that says, immunocompromise people are worth protecting and it 1:45:05.960 --> 1:45:09.880 went viral multiple times. So I guess I cannot help 1:45:10.000 --> 1:45:16.960 but be perceived objections. So yeah, I don't know, Yeah, petreat, Yeah, 1:45:16.960 --> 1:45:18.800 this this is what happens when you create things that 1:45:18.840 --> 1:45:23.640 are both incredibly politically powerful and also gorgeous. So yeah, 1:45:24.160 --> 1:45:28.320 be be be cursed with the reward for good work, 1:45:28.720 --> 1:45:36.800 which is also being perceived. Yeah. Yeah, well you can 1:45:36.800 --> 1:45:39.439 you can find you can find us at Happened here 1:45:39.479 --> 1:45:42.479 pod on Twitter and Instagram. There's the cool zone. You 1:45:42.520 --> 1:45:46.040 can find it. Yeah, go go, go, go retweet Tiger Art, 1:45:46.760 --> 1:45:51.040 I go throw a brick at your sheriff non actionable 1:45:51.720 --> 1:46:00.360 and yeah, destroyed the American and Chinese States. Happy two years? Yeah, 1:46:08.520 --> 1:46:12.960 it could happen. Here is the podcast that This is 1:46:13.160 --> 1:46:16.080 about things falling apart and how to, how to, how 1:46:16.120 --> 1:46:20.599 to maybe unfollowing apart. I'm Robert Evans. Your your your host, 1:46:20.760 --> 1:46:25.160 and your other hosts are Christopher and Garrison and our 1:46:25.200 --> 1:46:30.680 producers Sophie. How's everybody doing today? Great? How's every how's 1:46:30.720 --> 1:46:37.960 everybody feel about war? Oh? Yeah? Now, if you were 1:46:38.000 --> 1:46:40.559 to get us, based on your knowledge of history, what 1:46:40.680 --> 1:46:43.519 generation of war we're in right now? What would you? What? 1:46:43.720 --> 1:46:50.320 What would y'all guess? I feel like war isn't it's 1:46:50.720 --> 1:46:53.600 it's it's newer in relation to like human beings, like 1:46:53.640 --> 1:46:57.519 the idea of war. I'm guessing like there's been like battles, 1:46:57.520 --> 1:46:59.400 but like the idea of like war, I feel like 1:47:00.280 --> 1:47:03.960 isn't super old compared to how long there's been humans 1:47:03.960 --> 1:47:08.080 walking around, So I don't know this is maybe I mean, 1:47:08.080 --> 1:47:11.080 I know the answer, but like it's it's like I 1:47:11.080 --> 1:47:14.000 don't like that's that's definitely we definitely passed through like 1:47:14.000 --> 1:47:16.360 at least a couple of stages, and we're at least 1:47:16.360 --> 1:47:20.400 a couple Chris, like gotta be at least twelve twelve. 1:47:20.840 --> 1:47:23.679 At least twelve you were way ahead of William s Lynd, 1:47:23.760 --> 1:47:25.960 who spoilers is the guy who came up with the 1:47:26.000 --> 1:47:28.839 concept of fourth generation war, which is what this episode 1:47:28.880 --> 1:47:31.080 is about. Right. One of the things when we talk 1:47:31.160 --> 1:47:36.479 about things falling apart is um the unsettling growth of 1:47:36.520 --> 1:47:40.479 a number of different hybrid conflicts, Ukraine being the most 1:47:41.320 --> 1:47:45.559 like blatant modern example, Syria being the deadliest example in 1:47:45.560 --> 1:47:48.840 our lifetimes, but like these weird hybrid conflicts that are 1:47:48.840 --> 1:47:51.800 a mix of shit happening on the Internet and like 1:47:51.880 --> 1:47:54.240 disinformation going out all over the world. You could even 1:47:54.280 --> 1:47:56.760 think to like what was happening in Bolivia a year 1:47:56.840 --> 1:47:59.040 or so back, and like all those weird accounts that 1:47:59.080 --> 1:48:02.160 were like based around Langley, Virginia claiming to support the 1:48:02.200 --> 1:48:05.120 military coup. And you can look at like from the 1:48:05.160 --> 1:48:07.719 same this disinformation brought out by like the Russian state 1:48:07.800 --> 1:48:10.400 that is usually as part of like a conflict either 1:48:10.760 --> 1:48:13.960 you know, they have disinfo operations and Syria disinfo operations 1:48:14.000 --> 1:48:17.800 around the conflict in Ukraine that are kind of designed 1:48:17.800 --> 1:48:22.120 to muddy the issues and to detract international support and 1:48:22.200 --> 1:48:25.080 also to like drum up support within for like in 1:48:25.120 --> 1:48:26.960 the in the case of Ukraine, you had like this 1:48:27.120 --> 1:48:30.519 media blitz against the legitimacy of the Ukrainian state in 1:48:30.600 --> 1:48:34.880 favor of like a more UH like traditionally Russian um 1:48:35.200 --> 1:48:37.600 UH style of government in the East, and like that 1:48:37.680 --> 1:48:40.000 led to this breakaway republic that was supported by the 1:48:40.040 --> 1:48:42.880 Russian government. And like so these are like hybrid conflicts, 1:48:42.960 --> 1:48:46.160 is kind of how these are referred to. And there's 1:48:46.200 --> 1:48:49.800 a guy named William S. Lynd who in nineteen eighty 1:48:49.920 --> 1:48:54.720 nine wrote a book with a couple of US military analysts, 1:48:54.720 --> 1:48:56.640 Like he was an analyst for the military. He was 1:48:56.680 --> 1:48:58.719 not serving in the military. The other guys he wrote 1:48:58.760 --> 1:49:01.960 this this thing with we're serving at the time, and 1:49:02.000 --> 1:49:04.680 they wrote this this book kind of trying to be 1:49:04.880 --> 1:49:07.960 basically what Lynde was doing. He was very influenced by 1:49:08.040 --> 1:49:10.640 our loss in Vietnam when I say, are here, like 1:49:10.680 --> 1:49:15.080 the loss of the American state in Vietnam, and he 1:49:15.160 --> 1:49:18.040 was trying to determine, like number one, kind of like 1:49:18.040 --> 1:49:20.360 find a way to codify and explain the changes that 1:49:20.400 --> 1:49:22.839 were happening to warfare in this period. Was also influenced 1:49:22.840 --> 1:49:25.120 about what was happening in Afghanistan with the Russians were 1:49:25.160 --> 1:49:28.320 experiencing UM and find a way to like move forward 1:49:28.320 --> 1:49:30.920 and allow the United States to win wars again, right, 1:49:30.960 --> 1:49:34.680 Like that was William S. Lynd's goal UM, And so 1:49:34.760 --> 1:49:37.120 he came up with this concept of four or he 1:49:37.160 --> 1:49:38.639 and some other guys came up with what they called 1:49:38.680 --> 1:49:43.240 fourth generation warfare UM, and first generation warfare is like 1:49:43.560 --> 1:49:46.479 Napoleonic Arab warfare. So like as Garrison was saying, he 1:49:46.560 --> 1:49:50.479 may note that he kind of starts his pretty that's 1:49:50.520 --> 1:49:56.160 pretty late we had. Yeah, that's this's a lot of 1:49:56.160 --> 1:49:58.680 stuff that leads up to like, yeah, if I was 1:49:58.720 --> 1:50:01.400 going to try to categorize front types of warfare, that 1:50:01.400 --> 1:50:03.280 would not be the one I start with. Well, and 1:50:03.600 --> 1:50:05.519 like the reality of course, as we'll talk about like 1:50:05.520 --> 1:50:07.639 when you start looking at different kinds of warfares, there's 1:50:07.680 --> 1:50:10.360 wars that look remarkably like the ship going on in 1:50:10.400 --> 1:50:13.760 Afghanistan and Ukraine that are occurring like several thousand years ago, 1:50:14.360 --> 1:50:18.600 um like like like in the same places to like 1:50:18.920 --> 1:50:20.559 it's just like if you wanted to if you wanted 1:50:20.600 --> 1:50:23.040 to talk about like kind of the modern style of 1:50:23.040 --> 1:50:24.920 wars that we saw on that we've seen really in 1:50:24.920 --> 1:50:27.360 the last like hundred and fifty years. They're not all 1:50:27.400 --> 1:50:29.080 that dissimilar in a lot of ways from like the 1:50:29.160 --> 1:50:31.599 kind of conflicts you saw between Rome and Carthage um, 1:50:31.640 --> 1:50:35.280 which are these really like big nation states style conflicts 1:50:35.280 --> 1:50:37.840 and and have a lot of similarities. But but William S. 1:50:37.920 --> 1:50:40.519 Lynn described the first generation of warfare is beginning after 1:50:40.520 --> 1:50:43.280 the Peace of Westphalia in sixty eight that ended the 1:50:43.320 --> 1:50:45.879 Thirty Years War UM. And it's the kind of warfare 1:50:45.880 --> 1:50:48.280 where you have these like big, tightly ordered groups of 1:50:48.280 --> 1:50:51.640 men marching towards each other and like firing very inaccurate 1:50:51.680 --> 1:50:54.920 weapons and mass together. Right. Uh. This is ended by 1:50:55.000 --> 1:50:58.040 the era of the machine gun and the semi automatic 1:50:58.120 --> 1:51:00.479 rifle UM or on the bolt rat can rifle. I 1:51:00.479 --> 1:51:03.160 should say that leads us to second generation warfare, which 1:51:03.200 --> 1:51:06.120 is linear fire and movement with heavy reliance on indirect fires. 1:51:06.240 --> 1:51:08.640 That's still huge groups of guys charging, but they're not 1:51:08.720 --> 1:51:11.960 marching in close order, they're not like firing in volleys um, 1:51:12.000 --> 1:51:15.200 and they're supported by heavy artillery like World War one 1:51:15.280 --> 1:51:18.120 kind of ship right um. Really we start to see 1:51:18.120 --> 1:51:20.160 this in eighteen seventy and then World War One is 1:51:20.240 --> 1:51:22.280 kind of the height of this kind of warfare, and 1:51:22.360 --> 1:51:25.320 over the course of World War One were merge in again. 1:51:25.320 --> 1:51:28.200 This is William S. Len's way, we merge from second 1:51:28.240 --> 1:51:31.080 generation to third generation warfare, which is where you've got 1:51:31.560 --> 1:51:35.240 infiltration tactics to bypass enemy defensive lines and collapse it, 1:51:35.280 --> 1:51:38.000 which is kind of the Germans and their altrugs tactic 1:51:38.080 --> 1:51:41.599 and stormtrooper tactics are really kind of pioneering that you've 1:51:41.600 --> 1:51:44.120 got the idea of defense in depth um, and so 1:51:44.200 --> 1:51:46.639 this need to bypass the enemy and like this leads 1:51:46.640 --> 1:51:49.720 to blitzkrieg and leads to all sorts of ship um 1:51:49.880 --> 1:51:53.160 and then that kind of starts to collapse and Len's 1:51:53.280 --> 1:51:57.080 estimation around Vietnam and you get what's called fourth generation warfare. 1:51:57.640 --> 1:52:00.000 Fourth generation I'm actually just going to read a quote 1:52:00.040 --> 1:52:03.120 from a military history wiki that I thought had a 1:52:03.120 --> 1:52:06.719 pretty good description of all of this. Fourth generation warfare 1:52:06.760 --> 1:52:10.040 is normally characterized by a violent non state actor fighting 1:52:10.040 --> 1:52:12.400 a state. This fighting can be physically done, such as 1:52:12.400 --> 1:52:15.679 by modern examples Hezblah or the liberation Tigers of Tamil 1:52:15.720 --> 1:52:19.200 illam Um. In this realm, the v N essay, these 1:52:19.280 --> 1:52:22.360 violent nonstate actors use all three levels of fourth generation warfare. 1:52:22.400 --> 1:52:25.280 These are the physical actual combat, which is considered the 1:52:25.360 --> 1:52:29.000 least important, mental the will to fight, belief in victory, etcetera. 1:52:29.080 --> 1:52:31.479 And the moral, which is the most important. LYND says 1:52:31.520 --> 1:52:36.360 and includes cultural norms, etcetera. Um, So obviously I think 1:52:36.439 --> 1:52:39.439 that this is kind of nonsense. There's a lot of people, 1:52:39.720 --> 1:52:41.920 So there's a lot of folks, the people who buy 1:52:41.920 --> 1:52:43.680 into this, and it's very popular on the right. Well, 1:52:43.720 --> 1:52:45.479 we'll look at like what's happening in Ukraine. It's a 1:52:45.520 --> 1:52:48.080 perfect example of fourth generation warfare because you have Russia 1:52:48.400 --> 1:52:50.800 flooding the zone using spot Nick and a bunch of 1:52:50.800 --> 1:52:55.120 other kind of media organizations to drum up um discord 1:52:55.240 --> 1:52:58.280 and like anger between East and West and Ukraine and 1:52:58.360 --> 1:53:00.760 support for potential Russian action at the same time as 1:53:00.800 --> 1:53:03.640 you have them backing this dictator um, and then you 1:53:03.680 --> 1:53:06.880 have like the West sort of supporting the people protesting 1:53:06.920 --> 1:53:09.760 against those dictators, and like so you've got like this 1:53:09.760 --> 1:53:13.760 this digital conflict, this information conflict that eventually leads to 1:53:13.800 --> 1:53:16.040 fighting on the ground. One of the areas in which 1:53:16.080 --> 1:53:19.280 I think Lynda is really off is talking about like 1:53:19.320 --> 1:53:21.960 the physical as the least important, especially if you're going 1:53:22.000 --> 1:53:24.719 to consider Ukraine an example of fourth generation warfare, because 1:53:24.840 --> 1:53:29.040 if the Russian military had not intervened, there would not 1:53:29.120 --> 1:53:31.840 still be a conflict in Ukraine, the separatists would not 1:53:31.920 --> 1:53:33.960 still hold land, and in fact, the separatists were on 1:53:34.000 --> 1:53:36.559 the edge of getting completely wiped out by the Ukrainian 1:53:36.600 --> 1:53:39.240 military because they were a bunch of nonstate actors with 1:53:39.280 --> 1:53:42.200 minimal support and minimal weaponry before the Russians moved in 1:53:42.240 --> 1:53:45.360 brigades of active duty combat troops and armor um, including 1:53:45.360 --> 1:53:47.840 like gigantic fucking missile launchers which they used to shoot 1:53:47.840 --> 1:53:51.200 down that Malaysian airlines flight like that. It's it's just 1:53:51.320 --> 1:53:54.320 not I I don't think that that. What what Linda 1:53:54.400 --> 1:53:59.040 is saying is very um very well describes what's actually 1:53:59.080 --> 1:54:01.040 going on in the world. But it is important to 1:54:01.120 --> 1:54:05.280 understand the concept of fourth generation warfare and fifth generation warfare, 1:54:05.280 --> 1:54:08.080 which we'll talk about in a bit um, because it 1:54:08.200 --> 1:54:11.840 is so useful in the way in which particularly guys 1:54:11.880 --> 1:54:15.120 like Steve bannon Um conceive of conflict, because that you 1:54:15.320 --> 1:54:17.880 will hear the term fourth generation warfare constantly, and it's 1:54:17.880 --> 1:54:21.800 also something that has used a lot within our military establishment. 1:54:21.800 --> 1:54:23.519 Now a lot of people hate it, and within you 1:54:23.520 --> 1:54:26.600 can fight a lot of papers buy dudes writing like 1:54:26.760 --> 1:54:29.240 analysts who are working for the Defense Department for the 1:54:29.320 --> 1:54:32.320 army actively like shipping on Lynd and talking about how 1:54:32.400 --> 1:54:35.760 he's at best is kind of like reinvented ideas that 1:54:35.800 --> 1:54:37.880 have existed in warfare for thousands of years, and he's 1:54:37.920 --> 1:54:40.360 kind of summarized things in a way that that is 1:54:41.160 --> 1:54:44.919 needlessly flattening, and like some people will say, you basically 1:54:44.920 --> 1:54:47.800 like ripped up like added the Internet to Klauschwitz, uh 1:54:47.840 --> 1:54:50.480 and pretended that you'd invented a new style of conor 1:54:50.520 --> 1:54:53.400 that you defined a new style of conflict. Anyway, that's 1:54:53.400 --> 1:54:58.000 like an introduction to the idea of fourth generation warfare, right, 1:54:58.640 --> 1:55:00.320 And there's a lot of things that he gets again 1:55:00.360 --> 1:55:03.680 like if you're if you're a history, a military history look, 1:55:03.760 --> 1:55:05.520 which Lynde pretends to be a lot of ship that 1:55:05.560 --> 1:55:09.040 he gets wrong. Um. So one of the things that 1:55:09.080 --> 1:55:11.720 he says, like one of his famous phrases, that every 1:55:11.760 --> 1:55:15.320 military eventually craps in its own mess kit. Um, the 1:55:15.400 --> 1:55:18.440 idea that like every military that that is great eventually 1:55:18.480 --> 1:55:20.560 like has a gigantic funk up because they get too 1:55:20.600 --> 1:55:22.920 used to doing the same thing, which is true. Um. 1:55:22.960 --> 1:55:26.160 And he describes it as like um. The Prussians did 1:55:26.160 --> 1:55:28.320 in eighteen oh six, after which they designed and put 1:55:28.320 --> 1:55:31.160 into service a much more improved model mess kit mess 1:55:31.200 --> 1:55:34.040 kit through the Sharnhorst military reforms. The French did in 1:55:34.080 --> 1:55:36.480 eighteen seventy, after which they took down from the shelf 1:55:36.520 --> 1:55:38.840 and old model messket the mass draft Army of the 1:55:38.840 --> 1:55:41.880 First Republic and put it back into service. The Japanese 1:55:41.880 --> 1:55:44.560 did it in five after which they threw their messket away, 1:55:44.600 --> 1:55:46.720 swearing they would never eat again. And we did it 1:55:46.760 --> 1:55:49.120 in Korea, in Vietnam, and now in four new wars 1:55:49.200 --> 1:55:51.440 so far we've only we've had the only military that's 1:55:51.440 --> 1:55:54.640 just kept on eating. And that's a really dumb statement. 1:55:54.680 --> 1:55:58.040 That's all really historically inaccurate. So for example, it's true 1:55:58.080 --> 1:56:01.240 that like the Prussians had a great military which then 1:56:01.280 --> 1:56:03.400 got its butt kicked by Napoleon and they had to 1:56:03.440 --> 1:56:06.600 completely redesign it, and by the time eighteen seventy came around, 1:56:06.720 --> 1:56:09.240 they were extremely dominant in the battlefield against the French. 1:56:09.520 --> 1:56:12.600 Number One, he's crediting the military reforms of like tactics 1:56:12.600 --> 1:56:15.640 and strategy and ignoring things like Krupp inventing an entirely 1:56:15.680 --> 1:56:19.400 new kind of cannon that was utterly dominant on the battlefield. Um. 1:56:19.440 --> 1:56:22.320 He's also ignoring the fact that this Prussian army. Um. 1:56:22.360 --> 1:56:24.320 He's saying, like the US is the only army that 1:56:24.360 --> 1:56:26.280 does the same thing over and over again and fails 1:56:26.280 --> 1:56:28.400 and keeps on eating. Well, the Prussian Army is the 1:56:28.440 --> 1:56:30.400 army the Germans took into battle in World War One 1:56:30.440 --> 1:56:34.080 and two and spoilers, they didn't learn enough from either 1:56:34.120 --> 1:56:38.360 of those wars. Um. He also talks about how like 1:56:38.400 --> 1:56:40.560 the French had their you know, crapping in the mess 1:56:40.600 --> 1:56:43.040 kit moment in eighteen seventy after the Franco Prussian War, 1:56:43.040 --> 1:56:44.960 and they changed their army and it was much better. Like, well, 1:56:45.400 --> 1:56:48.080 they didn't win World War one, like they were on 1:56:48.120 --> 1:56:49.920 the side that one, but if it had been them 1:56:49.960 --> 1:56:53.600 against Germany, they would have gotten fucking steamrolled. Like it 1:56:53.640 --> 1:56:55.960 was not going well for them for quite a while, 1:56:56.040 --> 1:56:58.480 and they lost a whole generation of young men. So 1:56:58.520 --> 1:57:01.160 maybe and and again this is like what he's saying 1:57:01.240 --> 1:57:04.840 is basically we because we're losing so constantly. The reason 1:57:04.880 --> 1:57:07.680 that we're losing is not because we are picking bad conflicts. 1:57:07.720 --> 1:57:10.280 It's not because we're picking to engage in conflicts when 1:57:10.280 --> 1:57:12.200 we shouldn't at all be engaging in conflicts. It is 1:57:12.200 --> 1:57:16.560 not because we use military force and like a fundamentally 1:57:16.760 --> 1:57:19.680 venal and corrupt way in order to benefit a small 1:57:19.760 --> 1:57:25.040 cabal of military industrial corporations. It's because we we don't 1:57:25.040 --> 1:57:28.120 have good battle doctrine, and that's why we're not winning 1:57:28.120 --> 1:57:32.240 in these conflicts, which ignores everything about the reality of 1:57:32.240 --> 1:57:34.960 the conflicts that like he's talking about, Like the problem 1:57:35.040 --> 1:57:37.640 is not a lack of combat dominance, which is is 1:57:37.680 --> 1:57:39.760 what you were seeing with like the Prussians fighting Napoleon. 1:57:39.760 --> 1:57:42.160 It's what you're seeing with the French fighting the Germans 1:57:42.440 --> 1:57:46.160 in eighteen seventy, right, Like in those cases, the Prussians 1:57:46.160 --> 1:57:49.160 had a massive failure of combat dominance against the French, 1:57:49.200 --> 1:57:51.720 and the French had a massive failure in combat against 1:57:51.760 --> 1:57:55.600 the Germans. Their doctrine was just worse. Um. US soldiers 1:57:55.680 --> 1:57:58.480 are great at getting into gunfights and great at winning 1:57:58.480 --> 1:58:01.480 gun fights. The problem is not a lack of combat ability. 1:58:01.720 --> 1:58:04.440 The problem is that there's no way to win the 1:58:04.480 --> 1:58:08.080 conflicts that we're getting into. They are unwinnable wars that 1:58:08.160 --> 1:58:11.120 were never things that like, no amount of change in 1:58:11.240 --> 1:58:14.240 doctrine would have made Afghanistan a success because it was 1:58:14.600 --> 1:58:18.240 stupid war like its like if if that were true, 1:58:18.320 --> 1:58:24.800 like coin would have worked. And yeah no, like yeah, yeah, 1:58:24.880 --> 1:58:29.480 just complete total and utter failure, like enormous numbers of 1:58:29.520 --> 1:58:33.760 people dead, enormous numbers of like people traumatized for generations, 1:58:33.960 --> 1:58:37.840 and the U S still just lost both wars. Yeah, 1:58:38.000 --> 1:58:40.320 just and and and and if you really dig into 1:58:40.400 --> 1:58:42.680 Lynd and others like him, what they're actually saying when 1:58:42.680 --> 1:58:44.240 they say that, like we need to reform like the 1:58:44.280 --> 1:58:46.800 way the military works with new battle doctorents. We need 1:58:46.840 --> 1:58:49.440 to be killing even more people. We just didn't kill 1:58:49.560 --> 1:58:51.720 enough in Vietnam, like the five million we bombed or 1:58:51.800 --> 1:58:54.320 so that wasn't enough. People like that that's the reform 1:58:54.440 --> 1:58:58.560 that he's really talking about. UM. And when one of 1:58:58.560 --> 1:59:01.160 those people who like rants a up the like the 1:59:01.160 --> 1:59:04.720 the the al Salvadorian option, UM, I'm sure he does. 1:59:04.800 --> 1:59:06.920 I don't know exactly what he said about al Salvador. 1:59:07.080 --> 1:59:11.720 He's a fascinating kind of fascist. Um. He is absolutely 1:59:11.720 --> 1:59:13.560 a fascist. He was the director of the Center for 1:59:13.640 --> 1:59:18.000 Cultural Conservatism at the Free Congress Foundation. UM. He wrote 1:59:18.040 --> 1:59:22.120 a or he helped to popularize a Declaration of Cultural 1:59:22.200 --> 1:59:27.320 Independence by Cultural Conservatives, UM, which is like these there's 1:59:27.320 --> 1:59:28.760 a lot of the seeds of the ship that we're 1:59:28.760 --> 1:59:31.840 seeing today, right that like American culture institutions are being 1:59:31.840 --> 1:59:35.800 collapsed because of like liberal decadence and conservatives. Cultural conservatives 1:59:35.800 --> 1:59:40.920 should separate themselves and like set up parallel institutions where 1:59:40.960 --> 1:59:43.320 Bannon comes in. And that's where Bannon comes in. That 1:59:43.400 --> 1:59:45.840 where like fucking Andrew Torba and gab come and they 1:59:45.880 --> 1:59:48.920 all advocate this ship. Yeah, because they're all they all 1:59:48.960 --> 1:59:52.800 adhere to that kind of uh. Yeah, like politics has 1:59:52.880 --> 1:59:56.280 culture and and like there's downstream. Yeah. And there's some 1:59:56.320 --> 1:59:59.360 weird differences with Lynd Like he's a huge mass transit 1:59:59.400 --> 2:00:01.800 and urban ray advocate, which I guess I agree with 2:00:03.120 --> 2:00:05.440 every once in a while a bad person does have 2:00:05.480 --> 2:00:07.680 a good opinion. He loves he loves him some fucking 2:00:07.720 --> 2:00:10.320 city trains and stuff. Um, but he's also he was 2:00:10.360 --> 2:00:13.120 a major factor. He was one of the earliest, like 2:00:13.280 --> 2:00:16.520 prominent conservatives who was like yelling about cultural Marxism and 2:00:16.600 --> 2:00:19.280 kind of the modern political period. I mean that makes 2:00:19.280 --> 2:00:21.360 sense because he was real into it. Sounds like he's 2:00:21.400 --> 2:00:24.920 real into metapolitics. So yeah, that's super in the metapolis. Yeah, 2:00:24.960 --> 2:00:26.560 so like all of this stuff makes a whole lot 2:00:26.560 --> 2:00:29.520 of sense if you're yeah, if you're if you know what, 2:00:29.800 --> 2:00:32.120 if you know what metapolitics are, it's also kind of 2:00:32.160 --> 2:00:36.240 explains how he developed the different generations of warfare using 2:00:36.240 --> 2:00:40.320 it through a framework of metopolitics. Actually, if you believe 2:00:40.400 --> 2:00:44.480 like Breitbart famously stated that like politics is downstream from culture, 2:00:44.560 --> 2:00:46.320 and if you also believe what Claus I think it 2:00:46.320 --> 2:00:48.760 was class wits that said that like war is politics 2:00:48.800 --> 2:00:52.400 by other means than like you can make cultural can 2:00:52.480 --> 2:00:55.040 cause wars, and like, yeah, like that's a lot like 2:00:55.120 --> 2:00:57.440 kind of I think the thought process behind Lynn. Yeah, 2:00:57.440 --> 2:00:59.960 because this this really defines what he means by fourth 2:01:00.240 --> 2:01:04.240 generation warfare of war being handed out specifically by the 2:01:04.320 --> 2:01:07.240 culture instead of having it be abstracted to be like 2:01:07.280 --> 2:01:10.560 people marching towards each other with guns, because he's, he's, he's, 2:01:10.560 --> 2:01:12.840 he's putting the he's putting the culture kind of back 2:01:12.880 --> 2:01:15.480 into it. Yeah, and he and he's and he's and 2:01:15.480 --> 2:01:18.680 and obviously culture was never not a factor, and of 2:01:18.720 --> 2:01:21.440 course not like every single war has been a major factor. 2:01:21.480 --> 2:01:23.040 Like all of this ship he talks about is being 2:01:23.080 --> 2:01:26.440 characters to go. Fourth generation warfare has been happening in 2:01:26.440 --> 2:01:29.120 one way or another for thousands of years. But it's 2:01:29.560 --> 2:01:32.600 not that these things are done in like temporal succession. 2:01:33.000 --> 2:01:34.840 It's like because because like a lot of the stuff 2:01:34.880 --> 2:01:36.880 that makes up fourth generation warfare, like the more like 2:01:37.000 --> 2:01:41.320 guerrilla warfare aspects, come way before people with guns marching 2:01:41.480 --> 2:01:45.720 towards each other, Africans doing that to Alexander the goddamn 2:01:45.760 --> 2:01:48.520 group for the Birth of Christ. A lot of a 2:01:48.520 --> 2:01:51.360 lot of this fourth gender stuff is actually like kind 2:01:51.360 --> 2:01:54.800 of more similar to what original warfare probably would have been, 2:01:54.840 --> 2:01:58.600 Like Yeah, which I think I think to to his credit, 2:01:58.640 --> 2:02:00.840 I think he does actually reckon as at some point 2:02:00.880 --> 2:02:02.880 in his writing now and and and the thing about 2:02:02.960 --> 2:02:04.520 this is, well, we can pick at it, and I 2:02:04.560 --> 2:02:07.400 think there's a lot that's ridiculous in his attitude. It's 2:02:07.480 --> 2:02:09.760 it's close enough to the way that reality works that 2:02:09.800 --> 2:02:12.919 if you're going if you're thinking about conflict in this framework, 2:02:12.960 --> 2:02:16.440 you can be very successful. It's not like it's inaccurate 2:02:16.480 --> 2:02:19.440 in some ways because he's he is wrongly describing why 2:02:19.560 --> 2:02:21.560 certain things work. I think is a lot of what 2:02:21.600 --> 2:02:25.160 he's doing. And he's wrong about winning wars. I'll say that, um, 2:02:25.600 --> 2:02:29.080 if if the American military were to make the fucking 2:02:29.240 --> 2:02:32.560 lend the Secretary of Defense and give him total power, 2:02:32.840 --> 2:02:35.160 like he would keep on losing wars as hard as 2:02:35.160 --> 2:02:39.040 we've been losing wars for everyone listening to this is lifetime. Um. 2:02:39.080 --> 2:02:42.120 But in a cultural sense, the kind of culture jamming, 2:02:42.120 --> 2:02:43.760 which is a term we'll talk about more in the future, 2:02:43.760 --> 2:02:46.520 and but the kind of like the propaganda arms and 2:02:46.560 --> 2:02:50.160 stuff in order to the the the the media warfare 2:02:50.200 --> 2:02:54.480 in order to either insight or justify real conflict or 2:02:55.160 --> 2:02:56.560 or and this is one of the areas in which 2:02:56.600 --> 2:03:00.120 they have been really effective to alter the dimension, to 2:03:00.160 --> 2:03:03.560 alter how internationally a conflict has responded to. So one 2:03:03.560 --> 2:03:05.760 of the big successes of people like this has been 2:03:06.280 --> 2:03:11.840 effectively eliminating any kind of left wing support for liberatory 2:03:11.880 --> 2:03:14.880 movements in the Middle East, UM, for liberatory movements or 2:03:14.960 --> 2:03:17.440 for like just like what's happening in Ukraine. That's kind 2:03:17.440 --> 2:03:22.760 of like reflexive. Well, if there's uh, if there's a 2:03:23.000 --> 2:03:26.000 movement for liberation among the people of a country, it's 2:03:26.040 --> 2:03:29.000 probably the c I a like like carrying out some 2:03:29.040 --> 2:03:32.280 sort of op UM. That's Lynda and his people, UM 2:03:32.320 --> 2:03:34.680 and people influenced by him have been a big part 2:03:34.720 --> 2:03:37.960 of pushing that. UM. It's why Steve Bannon is in 2:03:38.200 --> 2:03:41.280 and is so friendly with like some guys on like 2:03:41.760 --> 2:03:44.160 chunks that they call themselves the left and whatnot. It's 2:03:44.160 --> 2:03:48.000 because um, there's there's a lot of uh, there's a 2:03:48.000 --> 2:03:49.560 lot of ties there, and that is an area in 2:03:49.560 --> 2:03:53.919 which they've been successful because international support really matters. UM. 2:03:53.960 --> 2:03:56.440 You know, it's it's it's uh. And I think like 2:03:56.480 --> 2:03:59.720 the death of internationalism is one of the bigger successes 2:03:59.760 --> 2:04:04.200 that these these thinkers have kind of had. But yeah, 2:04:04.320 --> 2:04:06.400 I don't know. That's that's that's that's a chunk of 2:04:06.400 --> 2:04:08.680 what I had to say. You guys want to know 2:04:08.720 --> 2:04:13.000 more about William S Lynd because he's I certainly want 2:04:13.080 --> 2:04:17.400 to learn more about William william S Lynd cultural conservative, 2:04:17.520 --> 2:04:21.400 right big on the traditional Christian values of America. You 2:04:21.440 --> 2:04:26.280 want to guess who he considers his ideal leader. Uh 2:04:26.520 --> 2:04:29.840 jfk No, the House of Hohan's all learned. He's a 2:04:29.840 --> 2:04:42.040 Prussian monarchist. Wait oh yeah, politics. He's certainly into Hegel, 2:04:42.240 --> 2:04:45.720 and he thinks that the Prussian the Prussian monarchy was 2:04:45.760 --> 2:04:48.480 the best government there ever was and was like unfairly 2:04:48.560 --> 2:04:50.600 crushed by the rest of the world and like should 2:04:50.640 --> 2:04:53.640 have won World War One and everything would like he's 2:04:53.680 --> 2:04:56.880 he's and so he's he's very much like a conservative 2:04:56.920 --> 2:05:01.680 monarchist um and a weird kind because like, my god, dude, 2:05:01.680 --> 2:05:04.080 if you're looking at like monarchs who were like the 2:05:04.480 --> 2:05:09.440 Hogan's Allerns had like in the modern era, like the 2:05:09.520 --> 2:05:13.520 first Kaiser Wilhelm was broadly competent, but like it went 2:05:13.600 --> 2:05:16.879 to ship as soon as the second and he blames 2:05:16.920 --> 2:05:20.160 all of World War One on the fucking Tsars like 2:05:20.240 --> 2:05:24.320 it's it's very silly, Like his ideas of history are 2:05:24.400 --> 2:05:28.680 like very stupid. I have an incredibly silly theory of 2:05:28.760 --> 2:05:33.320 history based on Hagel, which is that like every everything Hagel. Briefly, 2:05:33.440 --> 2:05:37.680 for the listeners I know, do not, this is this is, 2:05:38.200 --> 2:05:40.240 this is, this is the thing. Okay, okay, this this 2:05:40.280 --> 2:05:42.080 is this is. This is my crank theory of history 2:05:42.120 --> 2:05:45.000 based on Hagel, which is that every about forty years 2:05:45.040 --> 2:05:48.800 someone attempts to apply Hagel. Someone like takes charge of 2:05:48.800 --> 2:05:51.560 an incredibly large state and tries to use Hagel to 2:05:51.640 --> 2:05:55.839 run it, and every single time they don't understand the dialectic. 2:05:55.880 --> 2:05:58.560 It doesn't work. So this, for example, like if if 2:05:58.560 --> 2:06:01.400 you can take this at a very sort of grandy level, 2:06:01.480 --> 2:06:03.200 right you have Mao Mao has no idea what a 2:06:03.200 --> 2:06:05.440 dialectic is. You can you can read Mao's work. He 2:06:05.520 --> 2:06:08.880 has no clue, Like he just doesn't he like, he doesn't. 2:06:08.880 --> 2:06:10.600 He doesn't get it. He thinks of a dialectic is 2:06:10.600 --> 2:06:12.440 when one person with a bat hits the other hits 2:06:12.440 --> 2:06:14.000 the other side, and then when you destroy the other side, 2:06:14.040 --> 2:06:15.880 the dialectic is resolved. Right like that That's not what 2:06:15.920 --> 2:06:21.680 it is, right, maw like. Because of this, the entire 2:06:21.760 --> 2:06:25.520 Chinese revolution just implodes. Everyone dies, It returns to capitalism. 2:06:25.640 --> 2:06:29.480 Is a complete failure, right, you know, and and like 2:06:29.720 --> 2:06:31.520 a lot of the Nazis are very much into Hagel. 2:06:31.560 --> 2:06:35.360 They have again incredibly similar failures. The other group, people 2:06:35.400 --> 2:06:37.840 like Lynda think is part of this is that all 2:06:37.880 --> 2:06:40.160 of the people who planned the Iraq War were like 2:06:40.280 --> 2:06:43.520 enormous Sigelians, right, but they've gotten to Hagel through this 2:06:43.640 --> 2:06:46.880 weird like they they've been doing this, they've been doing 2:06:46.920 --> 2:06:48.360 these kind of insurgency stuff and so but they're kind 2:06:48.360 --> 2:06:51.200 of insurgency stuff. Was they read Mao and you know, 2:06:51.240 --> 2:06:52.960 so that they're so they're they're they're reading Hagel, but 2:06:52.960 --> 2:06:55.240 then they're also reading Hagel through Mao and now doesn't 2:06:55.280 --> 2:06:57.200 understand what's going on either. And so when they try 2:06:57.240 --> 2:06:59.360 to apply the Hegelian dialectic and they're like, okay, well, 2:06:59.360 --> 2:07:00.880 at the end of the end of the end of history, 2:07:00.880 --> 2:07:03.000 the end of the Higgelian dialectic is the United States 2:07:03.040 --> 2:07:04.800 were just going to impose this on a rock and 2:07:06.000 --> 2:07:10.640 catastrophic failure. So the war listening is, do not attempt 2:07:10.680 --> 2:07:15.040 to apply Hagel. You will completely annihilate your entire political movement, 2:07:15.560 --> 2:07:18.839 like every every everything, everything you love and dream of, everything, 2:07:18.880 --> 2:07:21.760 like every ideology you've ever had. Uh, it will it 2:07:21.760 --> 2:07:24.560 will crumble beneath you. And yeah, you will watch your 2:07:24.560 --> 2:07:27.120 cities and you watch your cities and armies burn. That's 2:07:27.120 --> 2:07:29.280 that's fine because the last time my resistance movement, we're 2:07:29.320 --> 2:07:35.360 just gonna be postcanty and object oriented on ontologists. Throw 2:07:35.360 --> 2:07:37.200 a bunch of names, and I'm gonna get like eight 2:07:37.680 --> 2:07:40.080 of people are just the funk am I hearing about 2:07:40.080 --> 2:07:42.280 these dead people? The thing I actually wanted to to 2:07:42.320 --> 2:07:46.120 bring up on this is like how fourth and fifth 2:07:46.200 --> 2:07:48.280 gen are the idea of the fourth and fifth gen 2:07:48.400 --> 2:07:53.919 get applied onto like more insurrection based um like revolts 2:07:54.000 --> 2:07:57.120 or groups. Right, you can see like groups like the 2:07:57.160 --> 2:08:01.160 Earth Liberation Fund and Animal Liberation Front of Pick and Shoose, 2:08:01.160 --> 2:08:03.480 elements of the fourth and fifth generation were fair to 2:08:03.560 --> 2:08:07.120 kind of to see how their groups formed or were 2:08:07.120 --> 2:08:10.560 operated um and even you could argue that like Ted 2:08:10.680 --> 2:08:13.920 Kaczynski was like a fifth generation warfare because he was 2:08:13.920 --> 2:08:18.080 completely autonomous and the actions. Let's let's introduce the idea 2:08:18.120 --> 2:08:21.160 of fifth generation because we just talked about fourth generation warfare, 2:08:21.200 --> 2:08:24.920 which was Lynn's idea. Fifth generation warfare is a concept 2:08:25.000 --> 2:08:28.120 that has come up. I believe Daniel Abbott is his name, 2:08:28.720 --> 2:08:31.960 UM and The idea was that, like, it's a new 2:08:32.000 --> 2:08:34.520 type of warfare that like characterizes a lot of conflicts 2:08:34.520 --> 2:08:37.920 in the modern era where almost everything is non kinetic UM, 2:08:37.960 --> 2:08:42.600 but it is still military action UM, so military social engineering, misinformation, 2:08:42.600 --> 2:08:45.240 storry or attacks, not just like decentralized, but like states 2:08:45.280 --> 2:08:49.200 actually using UM organized and often fighting non state actors 2:08:49.240 --> 2:08:52.280 who are using kind of the singing yeah. And this 2:08:52.800 --> 2:08:55.320 in a lot of this would involve artificial intelligence, fully 2:08:55.360 --> 2:08:58.920 autonomous systems, systems not just botan nets, but like algorithms 2:08:58.960 --> 2:09:01.080 that can like handle a out of the quote unquote 2:09:01.080 --> 2:09:05.080 fighting UM. William S Lynd hates the idea of fourth generation, 2:09:05.160 --> 2:09:07.840 fifth generation warfare because he's a narcissist and he doesn't 2:09:07.840 --> 2:09:14.880 like anyone using the head of the dialectic it keeps going. 2:09:14.920 --> 2:09:17.360 So what I was what I was thinking, is like 2:09:18.120 --> 2:09:21.640 is like a lot of you can apply fifth generation 2:09:21.680 --> 2:09:24.480 warfare to like these types of groups who are mostly 2:09:24.960 --> 2:09:28.680 like they do some they do some fourth gen tactics 2:09:28.720 --> 2:09:31.800 in terms of like terrorism, right, like they try to 2:09:31.840 --> 2:09:35.400 make political statements through terrorism and have terrorism an influential thing, 2:09:36.120 --> 2:09:41.320 but they're demands like you rarely like fifth generation stuff 2:09:41.320 --> 2:09:42.800 has not been around a long enough and no one's 2:09:42.800 --> 2:09:46.600 really been super successful at it in the past enough 2:09:46.600 --> 2:09:49.400 time for us like to like recognize that, right, because 2:09:49.400 --> 2:09:51.560 you can look at a lot of a lot of 2:09:51.600 --> 2:09:55.920 like an instructionary type stuff around like the Again, I'm 2:09:55.920 --> 2:09:58.560 just gonna use the Earth Liberation Front as an example 2:09:58.600 --> 2:10:00.600 of like a group that attempt to kind of these 2:10:00.640 --> 2:10:04.920 types of tactics, um and they may have succeeded in 2:10:04.920 --> 2:10:07.040 the physical sense, but they did not succeed in like 2:10:07.080 --> 2:10:12.080 the cultural sense. Really um So trying to like look 2:10:12.080 --> 2:10:14.200 at these types of things and how they relate to 2:10:14.520 --> 2:10:16.560 like specific you know, if you're gonna use like the 2:10:16.560 --> 2:10:18.800 Ta Kazinski example, same thing, except he's not a group. 2:10:18.840 --> 2:10:20.800 He's just one person, which is kind of more of 2:10:20.800 --> 2:10:24.080 a fifth gen thinks he's like fully autonomous, whereas I think, uh, 2:10:24.320 --> 2:10:26.600 you know, stuff like the ELF tried to have that 2:10:26.720 --> 2:10:29.360 kind of militant group dynamic that is more similar to 2:10:29.400 --> 2:10:32.280 fourth generation warfare. So it's like this picking and choosing 2:10:32.280 --> 2:10:34.840 of like trying to trying to do physical action than 2:10:34.880 --> 2:10:39.120 trying to do cultural action. And it's it's not like 2:10:39.520 --> 2:10:43.200 the things that have succeeded. Let's take for instance, some 2:10:43.680 --> 2:10:49.200 the defend the Cascadian forest thing who just got just 2:10:49.240 --> 2:10:52.680 got um this the specific action they were working on 2:10:52.720 --> 2:10:55.040 to protect a specific chunk of the forest. Uh. The 2:10:55.120 --> 2:10:58.840 judge of approved their approved their motion because they were 2:10:59.120 --> 2:11:01.800 they actually were sick sucessiful because they did not form 2:11:01.880 --> 2:11:05.040 this militant thing right now, they were just doing the 2:11:05.040 --> 2:11:08.320 cultural and it actually really succeeded um as opposed to 2:11:08.480 --> 2:11:11.080 just you know, burning down buildings and stuff to try 2:11:11.120 --> 2:11:13.920 to get your action forward. So just trying to look 2:11:13.920 --> 2:11:16.760 at like examples of when when like the goal is 2:11:16.840 --> 2:11:19.720 kind of the same and certain times succeeds, certain certain 2:11:19.760 --> 2:11:24.560 types don't. How that might influence like organizing and how 2:11:24.640 --> 2:11:28.280 to selectively use like insurrection, but have it not be 2:11:28.400 --> 2:11:32.000 like a default mode for like always your group is 2:11:32.040 --> 2:11:37.440 better if it's insurrectorary. Mhm. Yeah. And I one of 2:11:37.440 --> 2:11:39.720 the things that does characterize that I think is useful 2:11:39.760 --> 2:11:43.600 if we're because again I have my criticisms of the 2:11:43.720 --> 2:11:46.520 value of any of these like phrases as kind of 2:11:46.560 --> 2:11:48.880 discreete concepts. But one of the things that I think 2:11:48.960 --> 2:11:51.800 is useful about the concept of fifth generation warfare that 2:11:51.880 --> 2:11:54.600 does talk about something that is legitimately new to conflict, 2:11:54.640 --> 2:11:57.360 that has not really existed before before. The Internet is 2:11:57.440 --> 2:12:01.160 omnipresence UM. That that the inflicts are not limited in 2:12:01.160 --> 2:12:03.680 geographical space or in time, and in fact, it is 2:12:03.720 --> 2:12:06.440 like a constant factor all around you at all times 2:12:07.080 --> 2:12:11.760 because of the way the information sphere kind of actually functions. UM. 2:12:12.200 --> 2:12:13.440 You know, you can look at kind of like the 2:12:14.160 --> 2:12:18.320 mix of street fights and information warfare, doxing and whatnot 2:12:18.360 --> 2:12:21.360 between fascists and anti fascist for the last few years. 2:12:21.360 --> 2:12:24.920 It's omnipresent. It's always going on UM. And the battle 2:12:24.960 --> 2:12:27.839 space is kind of potentially everywhere, even though it's fairly 2:12:28.000 --> 2:12:32.120 rarely kinetic or physical UM. And I do think that 2:12:32.120 --> 2:12:35.400 that's an area in which, UM, it is really worth 2:12:35.640 --> 2:12:37.760 having a new term, in kind of defining a new term, 2:12:37.800 --> 2:12:39.280 because that's one of the few things I think that 2:12:39.360 --> 2:12:42.640 has legitimately changed. The Internet has made all of this 2:12:42.680 --> 2:12:45.520 stuff that's been happening for thousands of years faster UM. 2:12:45.520 --> 2:12:47.920 But the thing that it's really created that was not 2:12:48.080 --> 2:12:52.240 present before is this the this omnipresence UM. So I 2:12:52.280 --> 2:12:54.600 do think that that's really useful when we like I 2:12:54.600 --> 2:12:56.880 would like to on how conflict is different. I would 2:12:56.880 --> 2:12:59.680 like to kind of like think about like January six 2:12:59.760 --> 2:13:03.480 with in these frameworks, right of how of how disinformation 2:13:03.520 --> 2:13:07.240 and information was used relatively successfully to get a lot 2:13:07.240 --> 2:13:11.200 of people to actually move towards the more of you know, 2:13:11.480 --> 2:13:14.400 kind of backed by half the state, backed you know, 2:13:14.520 --> 2:13:17.840 not backed by well the larger majority. And yeah, how 2:13:17.960 --> 2:13:20.760 like it's a it's like a synthesis of the fourth 2:13:20.760 --> 2:13:22.640 generation of fifth generation ideas, which is why you know, 2:13:22.680 --> 2:13:27.000 there's a lot of overlap with these terms specifically, um, 2:13:27.040 --> 2:13:29.280 but seeing how like one leads to another, and it's 2:13:29.280 --> 2:13:33.160 not they're not necessarily inclusion exclusionary. Yeah, I mean, it's 2:13:33.200 --> 2:13:35.800 like the result is whether they win or lose. Right, 2:13:36.440 --> 2:13:38.680 that's that's like that that's what makes it a war. 2:13:38.800 --> 2:13:41.960 Is is the is the is like you decide afterwards 2:13:42.400 --> 2:13:44.880 based on the result. Yeah, I mean it kind of Yeah, 2:13:45.360 --> 2:13:48.600 that's certainly like how more modern wars happened, Like with Afghanistan, 2:13:48.840 --> 2:13:51.320 it wasn't so much like a clear like World War One, 2:13:51.360 --> 2:13:54.000 there's an armistice and like negotiated end of the war 2:13:54.080 --> 2:13:55.800 and at a certain date at all ends. It was 2:13:55.840 --> 2:13:58.640 a lot we haven't done that since we haven't done 2:13:58.640 --> 2:14:00.600 that for the state, Like you know, I've never known 2:14:00.600 --> 2:14:02.440 the States to do that for a month, because if 2:14:02.440 --> 2:14:05.400 you don't do that, you don't have to admit you lost, 2:14:05.640 --> 2:14:08.720 right if you just kind of like leave and ship 2:14:08.760 --> 2:14:11.520 gets real fucked up. Um, you can just be like, 2:14:11.960 --> 2:14:14.040 for one thing, you can say like, if we'd stayed 2:14:14.040 --> 2:14:15.760 and spent more money on that war, we could have 2:14:15.840 --> 2:14:18.560 we could have pulled it out, um, which is one 2:14:18.560 --> 2:14:20.320 of my like there's a lot of great criticisms of 2:14:20.320 --> 2:14:23.720 how the Biden administration handled things in Afghanistan last year, 2:14:23.720 --> 2:14:25.520 a thousand of them. But at the end of the day, 2:14:25.560 --> 2:14:28.680 it's like it was never kind to be good, like 2:14:28.800 --> 2:14:31.160 it was always it was this horrible war. We were 2:14:31.240 --> 2:14:34.680 killing way too many people. Um, we weren't achieving anything. 2:14:34.760 --> 2:14:36.920 And that fact was made really clear by the fact 2:14:37.000 --> 2:14:40.360 that as soon as we pulled out our guns, um, 2:14:40.400 --> 2:14:43.840 everything collapsed. And that was always going to happen. And 2:14:43.880 --> 2:14:46.120 you can needle around the edges of how we could have, 2:14:46.600 --> 2:14:48.960 you know, better taken care of people who had made 2:14:48.960 --> 2:14:50.760 promises to or whatever. At the end of the day, 2:14:50.760 --> 2:14:52.880 it was always going to be fucked because it was 2:14:52.960 --> 2:14:55.040 a thing we never should have done. And that's that 2:14:55.160 --> 2:14:57.040 like this idea that Lynd has that like, no if 2:14:57.040 --> 2:14:59.800 we fix our doctrine, we have better tactical doctrine. We 2:14:59.840 --> 2:15:02.360 have matter like we have that. One of his big 2:15:02.400 --> 2:15:05.400 ideas is um he came up with this concept called 2:15:05.440 --> 2:15:08.040 movement warfare that's been hugely influential in the way the 2:15:08.040 --> 2:15:11.400 Marine Corps functions. UM. And the idea behind movement warfare 2:15:11.440 --> 2:15:13.879 is like you should always have a bias towards action, 2:15:14.400 --> 2:15:17.920 and Lynda is very consciously UM trying to make this 2:15:18.000 --> 2:15:21.160 basically the evolution of of a German tactic called alf 2:15:21.200 --> 2:15:25.080 Strug's tactica, which is like individual unit tactics basically. So 2:15:25.200 --> 2:15:27.520 it's like midway through World War One, the Germans start 2:15:27.560 --> 2:15:30.120 to realize, like, all these mass wave human charges aren't 2:15:30.120 --> 2:15:33.960 working great, UM, and we should probably like figure out 2:15:33.960 --> 2:15:36.760 a way to get around these defenses. So they start 2:15:36.800 --> 2:15:39.520 training what are kind of the prototype of special forces, 2:15:39.840 --> 2:15:42.400 these like stormtroopers whose job is to like sneak in 2:15:42.480 --> 2:15:44.520 and not be seen and jump into the trenches and 2:15:44.600 --> 2:15:48.960 like you know, fucking axes and clubs and automatic handguns 2:15:49.000 --> 2:15:51.600 and UM fight in a way that like soldiers had 2:15:51.600 --> 2:15:53.480 not really fought in a long time. A lot of 2:15:53.480 --> 2:15:55.600 it was like melee, It was this really and there 2:15:55.600 --> 2:15:57.320 were a lot of technical things had to get around, 2:15:57.360 --> 2:15:59.120 barbed wire had to not be seen, how to like 2:15:59.200 --> 2:16:02.560 deal with machine gun nests um. And one of the 2:16:02.640 --> 2:16:05.640 keys to it was like the German started to retrain 2:16:05.680 --> 2:16:07.520 their soldiers to were like you have to have like 2:16:07.600 --> 2:16:09.720 these individual units of five and ten men have to 2:16:09.720 --> 2:16:12.720 have like total autonomy. And then unit commanders have to 2:16:12.760 --> 2:16:14.840 have autonomy, and they need to be will able to 2:16:14.920 --> 2:16:16.720 like We'll tell them, we need you to be in 2:16:16.720 --> 2:16:19.000 this this place at this point in time. But it's 2:16:19.040 --> 2:16:20.400 up to you to figure out how to do that. 2:16:20.480 --> 2:16:23.280 Because if you're if you've got this one guy who's 2:16:23.320 --> 2:16:25.600 three miles back giving the commands, everyone's just gonna get 2:16:25.600 --> 2:16:27.080 mow down by machine gun fire. Needs to be more 2:16:27.160 --> 2:16:30.000 nimble UM. And that's part of why in World War One, 2:16:30.000 --> 2:16:32.560 in and World War two, because the rest of the 2:16:32.600 --> 2:16:35.080 people fighting the Germans, like even the US, had not 2:16:35.200 --> 2:16:37.200 caught up to this kind of battle doctrine by the 2:16:37.200 --> 2:16:39.440 time World War Two was over um to the extent 2:16:39.520 --> 2:16:41.200 that the Germans had. And it's part of why there's 2:16:41.200 --> 2:16:44.080 such a lopsided casualty ratio in favor of the Germans 2:16:44.120 --> 2:16:47.200 in that war is they had what is very close 2:16:47.240 --> 2:16:50.160 to because all modern combat tactics are based on what 2:16:50.200 --> 2:16:52.080 the Germans started doing at the end of World War 2:16:52.120 --> 2:16:54.720 one UM and had really like nailed down to a 2:16:54.760 --> 2:16:58.039 science in World War two UM. And Lynda is saying that, 2:16:58.080 --> 2:17:00.480 like we need to extend that and like that's the 2:17:00.520 --> 2:17:02.320 thing we've gotten too far away from and we need 2:17:02.360 --> 2:17:04.480 to have You need to have like this bias towards 2:17:04.560 --> 2:17:07.879 movement and this the like officers need to be super 2:17:07.920 --> 2:17:11.760 aggressive and like always pursuing these kind of kinetic options. 2:17:11.959 --> 2:17:15.119 And again, as the Marine Corps battle record will show, 2:17:15.440 --> 2:17:19.680 this is very effective when you were getting into gunfights. 2:17:20.160 --> 2:17:22.480 But when was the last time the Marine Corps was 2:17:22.480 --> 2:17:24.600 on the side of a winning war? Like again, it 2:17:24.720 --> 2:17:26.879 doesn't we can all needle about how to make our 2:17:26.920 --> 2:17:29.240 troops better at like killing people, but at the end 2:17:29.240 --> 2:17:32.160 of the day, we're losing wars because we're getting into 2:17:32.200 --> 2:17:34.959 wars that are not winnable and that's not something you're 2:17:34.959 --> 2:17:37.640 going to fix with battle doctrine. And and Lyn doesn't 2:17:37.680 --> 2:17:41.120 understand that because he's a fascist. And I think it's 2:17:41.000 --> 2:17:43.920 just like this, this is the real like weakness of 2:17:43.959 --> 2:17:46.200 their politics, which is that was like, yeah, well, like 2:17:46.600 --> 2:17:49.600 it's they're they're they're trying. It's like they can't tell 2:17:49.640 --> 2:17:52.160 the difference between war and like they don't think there's 2:17:52.160 --> 2:17:55.080 a difference between war and politics, right, and that means 2:17:55.080 --> 2:17:56.879 that they think that there's a military solution to every 2:17:56.879 --> 2:17:58.959 political problem. And it's like, no, there's not, and like 2:17:59.000 --> 2:18:00.920 this is this is how and this is why is 2:18:00.920 --> 2:18:03.920 how they keep destroying themselves, right is that they you know, 2:18:04.280 --> 2:18:06.160 like like this is what happened to the neo cons. 2:18:06.240 --> 2:18:07.480 I mean, the neo cons a sort of held on 2:18:07.560 --> 2:18:09.760 in this kind of rump shell. But it's like neo 2:18:09.800 --> 2:18:13.840 conservatism project. Yeah. But but it's like, you know, like 2:18:13.879 --> 2:18:16.160 they don't they don't have like like even the people 2:18:16.200 --> 2:18:18.720 who used to be their base, like aren't there base anymore? 2:18:19.120 --> 2:18:22.480 Like those those people are all moving yeah yeah yeah, 2:18:22.480 --> 2:18:24.800 And it's it's it's like maybe they could have maintained 2:18:24.800 --> 2:18:28.280 it if they hadn't just like literally blown it apart 2:18:28.480 --> 2:18:31.040 like trying to conquer a rock. And it's like they 2:18:31.560 --> 2:18:33.920 all do this. They all eventually are like, well, Okay, 2:18:33.920 --> 2:18:35.440 well we'll find a military solution to this, and it 2:18:35.440 --> 2:18:37.480 blows up in their face because it turns out that no, 2:18:37.600 --> 2:18:39.680 you can't actually do this. I mean, I think all 2:18:39.720 --> 2:18:44.680 this syndicates a general progression into the more meta politics 2:18:44.800 --> 2:18:47.640 idea and culture as politics ideas that we're trying to 2:18:48.200 --> 2:18:52.480 solve all these political problems at least like locally within us, 2:18:52.520 --> 2:18:53.920 you know, we're trying to be trying to do them 2:18:53.920 --> 2:18:57.039 culturally and choosing them in selectively in other countries. Right 2:18:57.080 --> 2:19:00.800 because the more kind of the idea of like let's 2:19:00.840 --> 2:19:03.680 just keep entering wars, which we're also doing the same time, 2:19:03.720 --> 2:19:07.039 only for very very very like like very specific regions. 2:19:07.080 --> 2:19:09.400 But I mean the trend of like first, you know, 2:19:09.600 --> 2:19:12.199 like Trump's not necessarily and like Trump's notn't really cannogn 2:19:12.360 --> 2:19:15.480 He preferred the cultural jamming like that was that was 2:19:15.560 --> 2:19:18.360 his preferred method, and I got him relatively far in 2:19:18.440 --> 2:19:21.320 four years. And there there's an argument that Lynde is 2:19:21.360 --> 2:19:24.800 a big person who that he learned a lot from Lynda, 2:19:24.879 --> 2:19:26.600 even though I don't think he ever read his books. 2:19:26.600 --> 2:19:29.000 All the people he surrounded him with where fans of Lend. 2:19:29.040 --> 2:19:31.200 There's a picture of Trump and Lend together and like 2:19:31.280 --> 2:19:33.480 a copy of or at least Trump together with a 2:19:33.520 --> 2:19:37.760 copy of his book UM, which is titled Uh, the 2:19:37.800 --> 2:19:41.040 Next Conservatism Um and I'm gonna read a quote at 2:19:41.040 --> 2:19:44.360 this point from The American Conservative, which Lynde has written for, 2:19:44.520 --> 2:19:49.679 that describes this book because it's it's it's uh useful. Um. 2:19:49.720 --> 2:19:53.160 The Next Conservatism offers a comprehensive agenda of what Lyndon Wayrich, 2:19:53.200 --> 2:19:55.480 who's his co author on this, call a cultural called 2:19:55.520 --> 2:19:58.279 cultural conservatism. While the book aims higher than mere policy, 2:19:58.280 --> 2:20:01.520 the specifics mentioned are Trumpian reductions in legal and illegal 2:20:01.560 --> 2:20:04.760 immigration in America, first trade policy, and robust investments and 2:20:04.800 --> 2:20:08.440 domestic infrastructure, particularly street cars and trains in a less 2:20:08.440 --> 2:20:11.240 Trumpi in vain. It also promotes homeschooling and incorporates some 2:20:11.320 --> 2:20:13.240 ideas of from the New Urbanism as part of a 2:20:13.240 --> 2:20:17.240 broader program called retro culture. Of its connection with Trump, 2:20:17.640 --> 2:20:19.920 lynd says the book runs parallel to what he has 2:20:19.920 --> 2:20:22.640 been saying, but he doubts the billionaire's familiarity with its 2:20:22.640 --> 2:20:27.240 more philosophical ideas. Now here's the part that is going 2:20:27.280 --> 2:20:29.119 to be really unsettling, and this, I think is what 2:20:29.400 --> 2:20:31.640 lynd may actually be going for, rather than any kind 2:20:31.640 --> 2:20:33.920 of reform in the military to improve its ability to 2:20:33.959 --> 2:20:37.199 win foreign wars. Quote. In nineteen ninety four, an article 2:20:37.200 --> 2:20:39.440 appeared in the Marine Corps Gazette by Lynde and two 2:20:39.520 --> 2:20:41.520 of the authors of the nineteen eighty nine piece where 2:20:41.520 --> 2:20:44.240 he introduced the concept of fourth generation warfare. It ended 2:20:44.240 --> 2:20:46.720 on a dire note. The point is not merely that 2:20:46.720 --> 2:20:49.960 America's armed forces will find themselves facing non nation state 2:20:50.000 --> 2:20:53.000 conflicts and forces overseas. The point is that the same 2:20:53.040 --> 2:20:55.720 conflicts are coming here. The next real war we fight 2:20:55.840 --> 2:21:01.880 is likely to be on American soil. So that's what's 2:21:01.920 --> 2:21:06.440 going on here. Like, and that's the thing where biased 2:21:06.480 --> 2:21:09.400 towards action and increased killing power. If all you're really 2:21:09.400 --> 2:21:11.560 trying to do is murder everyone who disagrees with you 2:21:11.680 --> 2:21:14.160 using the military very quickly, well that might work for you. 2:21:15.080 --> 2:21:17.480 People should know about this. He has a fucking fiction 2:21:17.560 --> 2:21:20.880 book called Victoria, which actually if you go to like 2:21:21.000 --> 2:21:25.400 TV tropes, um the there's a TV it's not just 2:21:25.440 --> 2:21:27.880 TV tropes anymore, but like there's a trope page from 2:21:27.920 --> 2:21:31.320 my book After the Revolution, and it's directly compared to Victoria, 2:21:31.400 --> 2:21:34.359 as like they're the opposites of each other, because Victoria 2:21:34.520 --> 2:21:37.360 is like a book about a civil war in the 2:21:37.480 --> 2:21:45.879 US that these like weird fascist uh like monarchists win 2:21:46.160 --> 2:21:50.640 and like it's, uh, it's pretty fucked up. Like the 2:21:50.680 --> 2:21:52.920 problem is that like like like all of these like 2:21:52.959 --> 2:21:56.720 the Northwest is controlled by like environmentalists, like leaders who 2:21:56.760 --> 2:21:59.160 get like eaten by these animals like wolves that they 2:21:59.200 --> 2:22:02.640 reintroduced to the to the society. And like California is 2:22:02.680 --> 2:22:06.520 so feminist that it's illegal to have sex and make babies, um. 2:22:06.560 --> 2:22:09.959 And the South fails because it's it's too multicultural um. 2:22:10.320 --> 2:22:14.360 And yeah, like it's it's all so the person who 2:22:14.400 --> 2:22:17.440 wins the war is like the governor of Maine who's 2:22:17.959 --> 2:22:22.320 a retro culture practitioner um and considers himself a subject 2:22:22.320 --> 2:22:32.640 of the Kaiser. I maybe getting a couple of details wrong, 2:22:32.720 --> 2:22:34.720 but not that part I know. But it's it's a 2:22:34.800 --> 2:22:37.840 fucking nuts nuts So I've only read like little bits 2:22:37.840 --> 2:22:39.960 of it. Maybe one day I'll get through the whole thing. 2:22:40.120 --> 2:22:45.160 But that's that's the thing with all with all of 2:22:45.200 --> 2:22:48.760 these like cultural gambers, like they try to put on 2:22:48.920 --> 2:22:52.959 like war aesthetics, but all of them were the nerdiest fuckers. 2:22:53.000 --> 2:22:56.720 He'll ever he's so stupid, and I like he's to 2:22:58.200 --> 2:23:02.320 All these guys are so is so nerdy, all of them. Yeah, 2:23:02.400 --> 2:23:05.520 and like lend. Everything about him makes sense when you 2:23:05.600 --> 2:23:09.320 understand that his primary guiding directive is anger over the 2:23:09.360 --> 2:23:14.440 fact that there's no longer a kaiser Um. He's a 2:23:14.440 --> 2:23:17.080 little but also like again, he was not lying about 2:23:17.240 --> 2:23:18.920 there's a picture of like Trump of this fucking book. 2:23:18.920 --> 2:23:22.040 He's not lying that. Like fucking everybody who was like 2:23:22.879 --> 2:23:26.240 pilled in that White House knew about Lynn's ideas and 2:23:26.280 --> 2:23:29.640 have been He's been hugely influential, and not just among 2:23:29.879 --> 2:23:32.680 like the American right. His books have been found in 2:23:32.760 --> 2:23:35.840 like al Qaeda hideouts and ship like. He makes sense 2:23:35.840 --> 2:23:38.040 though that that that that like all of all of 2:23:38.080 --> 2:23:41.800 that really tracks because yeah, like the barrier between like 2:23:42.000 --> 2:23:44.720 terrorist action as a part of fourth generation and in 2:23:44.760 --> 2:23:47.480 some ways fifth generation warfare and then the type of 2:23:47.520 --> 2:23:50.480 like culture jamming, those things go hand in hand. Like 2:23:50.560 --> 2:23:52.800 that is like that is the goal of it is 2:23:53.160 --> 2:23:55.440 to make it work that way. So that doesn't surprise 2:23:55.480 --> 2:23:57.640 me that those types of terrorist groups would be reading 2:23:57.640 --> 2:24:00.520 his books for advice so or for like to like 2:24:00.640 --> 2:24:03.880 figure out how the other side thinks. Yeah, all right, 2:24:03.920 --> 2:24:06.400 well that's probably enough talking about william S. Lind for 2:24:06.440 --> 2:24:11.119 today and cultural and the fourth generation. We'll talk there's 2:24:11.160 --> 2:24:13.520 a lot to dig into about how these ideas have 2:24:13.680 --> 2:24:16.199 influenced chunks of the right and now they're currently still 2:24:16.240 --> 2:24:19.600 being used for like these omnipresent conflicts that are going 2:24:19.600 --> 2:24:21.440 on right now. And again I do think particularly the 2:24:21.560 --> 2:24:24.840 idea of omnipresence is really useful for understanding modern conflict. 2:24:24.840 --> 2:24:26.120 I would I would go as far as to say, 2:24:26.120 --> 2:24:31.879 like crucial. Um, so this is necessary background information to 2:24:31.920 --> 2:24:33.600 people to have, for people to have for like some 2:24:33.640 --> 2:24:35.400 of the other ship. We're going to be continuing to 2:24:35.440 --> 2:24:38.880 talk in this about in this series as we you know, 2:24:39.080 --> 2:24:42.280 as we talk more about kind of kinetic conflicts or 2:24:42.280 --> 2:24:46.080 at least building towards kinetic conflicts. Um. But yeah, I 2:24:46.080 --> 2:24:49.199 think this is this is a useful kind of grounding. 2:24:49.200 --> 2:24:52.080 And now I'm going to send Chris and Garrison off 2:24:52.200 --> 2:24:55.080 to write an episode explaining who Hegel is and everything 2:24:55.120 --> 2:24:58.720 he believed. I Yeah, it's gonna be great. You're gonna 2:24:58.720 --> 2:25:01.920 you're gonna hear you. You will watch me go mad 2:25:02.080 --> 2:25:04.560 in real time. It's gonna be great. Yeah. The other 2:25:04.600 --> 2:25:07.200 option is I can just read the Wikipedia page for 2:25:07.240 --> 2:25:11.640 Hegel with like a really offensive German accent. That's better 2:25:11.680 --> 2:25:15.760 than that, Actually better I'm gonna go to I promise 2:25:15.840 --> 2:25:17.520 you one thing, which is that I will wind up 2:25:17.560 --> 2:25:20.080 either Russian or Australian by the end. I can't stop 2:25:20.160 --> 2:25:22.879 that drift when I whenever I start doing you know, 2:25:23.800 --> 2:25:26.640 Oh I am a good German. Yeah, my name is 2:25:26.840 --> 2:25:33.160 Mr Hegel. The absolute that happen here, we're in follow 2:25:33.200 --> 2:25:36.119 up cool zone media. We're gonna stop that right now. 2:25:36.400 --> 2:25:56.520 I probably should Oh my Crown, great timing. M hmm, 2:25:56.640 --> 2:25:59.959 I love oh my Crown. I'm Robert Evans. This is 2:26:00.040 --> 2:26:09.080 it could happen here a podcast about Greek numbering schemas. Garrison, 2:26:09.720 --> 2:26:10.800 What do you? What do you? How do you? How 2:26:10.840 --> 2:26:13.640 do you feel about? Oh Macron? This has nothing to 2:26:13.640 --> 2:26:17.280 do with the topic we're talking about, So this is 2:26:17.400 --> 2:26:21.320 this is an update. A few of right last week 2:26:21.800 --> 2:26:27.240 were earlier this week we discussed the the trucker Convoy 2:26:27.400 --> 2:26:30.920 scheduled our episode recorded before the truck convoy for after 2:26:30.959 --> 2:26:32.960 the truck Convoy had already done a bunch of things, 2:26:33.160 --> 2:26:37.320 which was really good. So we we recorded to talk 2:26:37.360 --> 2:26:40.959 about the trucks that were that we're going to show 2:26:41.040 --> 2:26:45.040 up at Ottawa and the thing things did happen. Maybe 2:26:45.080 --> 2:26:48.520 not that not because like I've been listening. Some of 2:26:48.760 --> 2:26:51.119 their claims are like and Alex Jones is parenting there 2:26:51.120 --> 2:26:53.000 now that it was like eight hundred thousand to a 2:26:53.040 --> 2:26:55.840 million truckers and there's three hundred thousand truckers in all 2:26:55.879 --> 2:27:00.200 of Canada, like, but it was, it was. It was 2:27:00.200 --> 2:27:02.879 a lot of people like not to not to downplay 2:27:02.920 --> 2:27:05.280 what happened. So we're to give an update on what 2:27:05.360 --> 2:27:08.240 happened there and kind of discussed maybe any ramifications that 2:27:08.320 --> 2:27:10.440 stuff like this could have going forward. But to help 2:27:10.440 --> 2:27:15.199 with that, um, we have Dan who came on last 2:27:15.240 --> 2:27:18.080 time to help discuss Hello, thank you for coming on 2:27:18.200 --> 2:27:21.400 again to talk about the same thing. Thank you for 2:27:21.480 --> 2:27:24.600 having me. We last less off with you saying that 2:27:24.920 --> 2:27:27.520 you hope I don't come back on again because that 2:27:27.520 --> 2:27:29.720 would be a good thing and it would mean that 2:27:30.040 --> 2:27:32.959 the bad things did not happen. So sorry to be 2:27:33.040 --> 2:27:36.880 here under such circumstances. Yeah, you want to go over 2:27:37.640 --> 2:27:41.840 the bad Yeah, So let's let's briefly do like a 2:27:41.920 --> 2:27:45.320 recap of like what this thing was like, like why 2:27:45.360 --> 2:27:47.600 why was it happening, and like what was the idea? 2:27:47.720 --> 2:27:50.480 When we last left Canada, a bunch of truckers were 2:27:50.520 --> 2:27:53.840 angry that they had to present evilations evidence of vaccination. 2:27:54.720 --> 2:27:57.920 This spiraled and as I'm understanding it, at some point 2:27:58.000 --> 2:28:03.600 then rejecting all public health measures. Yes, actually the the 2:28:03.600 --> 2:28:07.440 exact demands are for the federal and provincial governments to 2:28:07.600 --> 2:28:11.439 quote terminate the vaccine passports and all other obligatory obligatory 2:28:11.560 --> 2:28:18.080 vaccine contact tracing programs uh, to terminate COVID vaccine mandates UH, 2:28:18.120 --> 2:28:20.240 and quote respect the rights of those who wish to 2:28:20.280 --> 2:28:24.279 remain unvaccinated. UH. And here's where it gets weird. UH 2:28:24.720 --> 2:28:27.720 See a good devisive rhetoric attacking Canadians who disagree with 2:28:27.800 --> 2:28:30.160 government mandates. Kind of hard to say when that one's 2:28:30.200 --> 2:28:34.840 fulfilled and finally ceased to limit debate through coercive measures 2:28:34.879 --> 2:28:37.520 with the goal of censoring close who have varying or 2:28:37.640 --> 2:28:42.920 incorrect opinions. That's what the convoys for. I mean, do 2:28:42.959 --> 2:28:50.880 you all know what a government is? Evidently I was 2:28:50.920 --> 2:28:54.640 at some debates in with the state that went a 2:28:54.640 --> 2:28:58.720 lot uglier than it looks like this. One went oh yeah, yeah, 2:28:58.760 --> 2:29:02.120 we we we can talk about that. This this the 2:29:02.160 --> 2:29:04.440 stand off has been well, there's been just that it's 2:29:04.440 --> 2:29:08.760 been a standoff in that regard. So it seems like 2:29:08.760 --> 2:29:11.600 they've kind of hooligan around a bunch of towns and 2:29:12.000 --> 2:29:15.440 threatened a homeless shelter if they didn't give them food, 2:29:16.120 --> 2:29:20.080 and that they left trash everywhere and set up a 2:29:20.200 --> 2:29:22.840 checkpoint on the border or just a blockade on the border. 2:29:22.840 --> 2:29:25.600 I think it's probably more accurate. There's been blockades going 2:29:25.640 --> 2:29:28.440 on and up the border. I think the most noteworthy 2:29:28.520 --> 2:29:31.000 is an Alberta and coop right now. But I might 2:29:31.000 --> 2:29:33.400 be pronouncing that wrong. And what was the police It 2:29:33.480 --> 2:29:35.200 was something along the lines of we don't think there's 2:29:35.240 --> 2:29:38.000 like a policing solution to this problem. Oh yeah, so 2:29:38.080 --> 2:29:43.600 you're totally up to date that that happened today. Yeah, 2:29:43.720 --> 2:29:47.560 so a little after two pm t D. On lafter 2:29:47.760 --> 2:29:51.840 two pm today, the Ottawa Police Chief Pewter slowly said 2:29:51.879 --> 2:29:54.240 in a press conference that quote, there may not be 2:29:54.320 --> 2:29:59.600 a policing solution to this demonstration. Is it really that easy? 2:30:00.440 --> 2:30:05.119 It's evidently it's that easy if you wait till kind 2:30:05.160 --> 2:30:07.800 of like the media has had a few days and 2:30:07.959 --> 2:30:12.480 most of the coverage is just like breaking bad things 2:30:12.560 --> 2:30:17.840 still happening. Uh so it's it's not great. So what 2:30:17.840 --> 2:30:20.520 what was the lead upon set? Right? Because they were all. 2:30:20.520 --> 2:30:22.600 They were all all the trucks and caravans and stuff. 2:30:22.600 --> 2:30:25.240 We're supposed to rive on Saturday. What was the lead 2:30:25.280 --> 2:30:27.560 up on Saturday like and like what what what happened 2:30:27.640 --> 2:30:33.280 like the actual first day. Yeah, so Saturday was technically 2:30:33.360 --> 2:30:36.959 the first day, actually Friday. Throughout the day a lot 2:30:37.000 --> 2:30:41.240 of people started arriving. So the occupation has been we're 2:30:41.240 --> 2:30:46.680 recording now Wednesday. Um, it started on Friday and the 2:30:46.720 --> 2:30:50.160 main like the largest contingent of the convoy was staying 2:30:50.240 --> 2:30:54.000 overnight Friday night in a nearby town called Armfire west 2:30:54.040 --> 2:30:58.080 of Ottawa, and they moved in from Armpire to Ottawa 2:30:58.160 --> 2:31:01.520 on Saturday morning. At the same time, people converged from 2:31:01.520 --> 2:31:05.760 other parts of Canada. UM to Ottawa's east is Quebec 2:31:05.920 --> 2:31:10.640 and to Quebec's east of the Maritime provinces, and three 2:31:10.680 --> 2:31:14.200 thousand people at least came from Quebec and met with 2:31:14.240 --> 2:31:16.800 the convoy to on Saturday, kind of coming in from 2:31:16.920 --> 2:31:19.760 different parts the day between Friday night and Saturday afternoon, 2:31:20.400 --> 2:31:23.520 and Saturday was kind of the big day, the big party, Uh, 2:31:24.920 --> 2:31:27.959 the main point of contention, and the main thing that 2:31:28.040 --> 2:31:31.880 happened was some major streets are gridlocked by vehicles moving 2:31:31.879 --> 2:31:35.000 into the city, into the very crowded core of Otto 2:31:35.080 --> 2:31:39.080 of my hometown and staying stationary on busy roads. Both 2:31:39.080 --> 2:31:41.720 commercial and residential roads are part of this. Driveways for 2:31:41.800 --> 2:31:44.880 both businesses and residences were blocked off, fire roads are 2:31:44.920 --> 2:31:48.880 blocked off, and Wan's routes are blocked off. Local businesses 2:31:49.600 --> 2:31:52.519 that stayed open had to close throughout the day Saturday, 2:31:52.680 --> 2:31:57.039 largely UH, some managed to not, and many of just 2:31:57.080 --> 2:31:59.440 stayed closed already because they knew what was going to happen, 2:32:00.080 --> 2:32:04.080 and this happened. Closures that happened on Saturday are mostly 2:32:04.120 --> 2:32:06.640 still going on today as I'm speaking to you. Wednesday night. 2:32:07.440 --> 2:32:11.200 UH closures followed patterns of harassment, some alleged assaults which 2:32:11.240 --> 2:32:14.080 I ever mentioned before else happened at a homeless shelter 2:32:15.000 --> 2:32:18.240 in downtown Ottawa, and pretty much everyone I've spoken to 2:32:18.320 --> 2:32:21.760 I've I've been in Ottawa, visiting it to my hometown, 2:32:22.480 --> 2:32:24.480 and pretty much every what I've spoken to who lives 2:32:24.480 --> 2:32:26.240 in the downtown core is that a slew of story 2:32:26.320 --> 2:32:29.200 since Saturday of either harassment at work or just harassment 2:32:29.200 --> 2:32:31.520 walking through the streets. And the worst part of it 2:32:31.560 --> 2:32:33.480 all is that right now there's not a clear ending 2:32:33.480 --> 2:32:36.080 in sight. What is it like on the ground there 2:32:36.240 --> 2:32:37.800 in terms of I know, there's like kind of like 2:32:37.800 --> 2:32:40.640 a blockade around the border. But they're like, what else 2:32:40.680 --> 2:32:43.800 is like around Ottawa? What's like? What like? What what 2:32:44.000 --> 2:32:46.440 is what's it like to walk around in these places? 2:32:46.440 --> 2:32:48.320 And like how big is the area that these people 2:32:48.320 --> 2:32:50.560 are staying at? Like where are they staying at? Are 2:32:50.600 --> 2:32:52.680 they all sleeping in their trucks? Who staying at hotels? 2:32:52.959 --> 2:32:55.680 What's like? What's like the It's an excellent question. There's 2:32:55.920 --> 2:32:58.120 there's a mix of hotels were booked up the week 2:32:58.200 --> 2:33:01.279 leading up to the weekend. As as the new cycle 2:33:01.360 --> 2:33:04.240 kind of exploded, more and more people called into hotels 2:33:04.240 --> 2:33:06.920 in Ottawa. A lot of people actually brought tractors. People 2:33:06.959 --> 2:33:10.440 are also sleeping in their trucks. Uh. Of course people 2:33:10.480 --> 2:33:12.800 have like family and stuff staying in Ottawa. Sometimes they're 2:33:12.800 --> 2:33:18.520 staying with them. Um, it's a mix of everything. Actually, 2:33:18.560 --> 2:33:20.600 I know a guy who even his car was like 2:33:20.680 --> 2:33:23.160 blocked off in the parking lot. He has to parking 2:33:23.200 --> 2:33:26.720 because he's downtown. He doesn't have street parking or driveway parking, 2:33:26.959 --> 2:33:29.280 Like it's in a public lot and he couldn't get 2:33:29.320 --> 2:33:32.600 his car out for over a full day because an 2:33:32.680 --> 2:33:35.200 RV camper set up near him and just blocked him off. 2:33:35.800 --> 2:33:40.760 So it's a mix of everything. Uh. Starting on Saturday, 2:33:41.080 --> 2:33:43.240 there's like a lot of partying, a lot of music, 2:33:43.280 --> 2:33:45.840 a lot of kids. Uh. It's gotten a little bit 2:33:45.840 --> 2:33:49.320 more chaotic and less condensed since then. And also the 2:33:49.360 --> 2:33:53.040 area is hard to gauge because streets are actually constantly 2:33:53.160 --> 2:33:57.360 as vehicles move out for one reason or another. Streets 2:33:57.360 --> 2:34:00.520 are kind of being re taken back organically of the city, 2:34:01.120 --> 2:34:03.760 but then sometimes throughout the day getting retaken again back 2:34:03.760 --> 2:34:06.080 by the convoy. So the occupation has been a little 2:34:06.080 --> 2:34:08.520 fluid on some of the outside streets. Wellington Street, which 2:34:08.560 --> 2:34:11.080 is the street outside of Parliament in Ottawa, has been 2:34:11.160 --> 2:34:16.879 consistently occupied, to my knowledge, blocking off kind of not 2:34:17.000 --> 2:34:20.119 actually blocking off, but you have to walk past them 2:34:20.240 --> 2:34:22.879 as a pedestrian to get onto Parliament Hill. So that's 2:34:22.920 --> 2:34:24.800 where the kind of the core is, the action of 2:34:24.840 --> 2:34:26.680 the action is, and everything else spreads out from that. 2:34:26.800 --> 2:34:30.160 And near hotels, uh, there's a little more action because 2:34:30.200 --> 2:34:34.560 that's generally where people are staying. How has members of 2:34:34.640 --> 2:34:38.959 Parliament and like local politicians has been reacting since Saturday. 2:34:39.120 --> 2:34:40.880 I know there was there was some videos of like 2:34:41.760 --> 2:34:44.520 I think one of the MP's from Alberta was giving 2:34:44.520 --> 2:34:48.560 an interview that gained some traction online. Um, but yeah, 2:34:48.680 --> 2:34:51.560 it's kind of curious, like how the like different government 2:34:51.560 --> 2:34:54.680 officials are talking about this. I'm actually so glad you 2:34:54.720 --> 2:34:59.920 asked that because as of today, the divide in member 2:35:00.080 --> 2:35:04.520 of Parliament has actually led to some pretty incredible political ramifications. 2:35:05.240 --> 2:35:07.520 So last time we spoke, I think Erin O'Toole had 2:35:07.560 --> 2:35:10.480 just earlier in the day endorsed conpoints that he'd be 2:35:10.520 --> 2:35:13.720 coming down. Erin o't tool, for those unaware, is the 2:35:13.840 --> 2:35:17.000 leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. He's a real, 2:35:17.320 --> 2:35:26.240 real o'tool. Wow, whoa mind blown? No one, No one 2:35:26.320 --> 2:35:32.520 could have seen that joke coming. Every every Canadian listener 2:35:32.560 --> 2:35:38.080 just like collectively rolled there. Yeah, so Erin o'tool and 2:35:38.280 --> 2:35:42.039 just endorsed the convoy. He'd been getting some tough questions 2:35:42.040 --> 2:35:47.080 about it. Following everything we just talked about and more, 2:35:47.520 --> 2:35:50.879 Erin o't too will walk that back and said, you know, 2:35:50.959 --> 2:35:52.920 he didn't approve of the way that the convoy was 2:35:52.959 --> 2:35:55.680 acting in Ottawa. This led to a swift referendum on 2:35:55.760 --> 2:35:58.880 his leadership and earlier today, Erin o'tool was voted out 2:35:59.040 --> 2:36:04.280 as the Conservative leader in Canada and that does have 2:36:04.320 --> 2:36:07.080 pretty big ramifications. I know I talked about Erin o 2:36:07.160 --> 2:36:10.840 tool a decent amount in my previous Canada episodes for 2:36:10.920 --> 2:36:14.280 cadapin here. Um, so, yeah, that'll be really interesting to 2:36:14.320 --> 2:36:17.680 see who uh what's do you have any idea of 2:36:17.800 --> 2:36:20.920 when the new person is going to try to get 2:36:21.320 --> 2:36:24.279 noted it? Like, when when do you think that process 2:36:24.320 --> 2:36:26.720 is going to happen to fill that spot. I'm actually 2:36:26.720 --> 2:36:29.640 not sure. I haven't looked up when it's gonna happen. 2:36:29.879 --> 2:36:31.959 It feels like there's been months before where there's an 2:36:32.000 --> 2:36:35.840 intimaters of the Conservative Party. The main concern right now 2:36:35.959 --> 2:36:39.480 for those outside of Conservative politics is because Erin o' 2:36:39.560 --> 2:36:42.480 tool was considered relatively moderate. That you talked about in 2:36:42.520 --> 2:36:45.920 the Fascism Canada episode, how Erin o'tool kicked out Darren 2:36:45.920 --> 2:36:50.520 Sloan from the party for being pretty coy on donations 2:36:50.520 --> 2:36:55.119 from neo Nazi Paul Front on his campaign. Uh. Overall, 2:36:55.120 --> 2:36:57.120 like that's a pretty great thing that Erino tool that 2:36:57.160 --> 2:36:59.360 kicked him out of the caucus. Like, regardless of other 2:36:59.400 --> 2:37:04.720 elements of leadership. Uh, there's worrying that that kind of 2:37:06.160 --> 2:37:09.240 there will be continued forward, especially because Sloan was also 2:37:09.360 --> 2:37:11.920 in the leadership race and Sloan has only gone further 2:37:12.000 --> 2:37:17.320 right since then. Yeah, it is just despite air no tools, 2:37:17.440 --> 2:37:20.440 not great aspects, which there are lots of. He did 2:37:20.879 --> 2:37:22.959 he did, he did take it. He did kind of 2:37:23.120 --> 2:37:30.480 hold back some of the more problematic uh conservative like elements, 2:37:31.240 --> 2:37:33.600 whether that be you know, people from you know, from 2:37:34.000 --> 2:37:36.880 his own party, like like Derek, and then also keeping 2:37:36.959 --> 2:37:40.600 kind of the people's party stuff at Bay Um. Yeah, 2:37:40.640 --> 2:37:43.200 and that will be an interesting kind of power struggle now, 2:37:43.600 --> 2:37:48.560 that will be something to observe. I think the thing 2:37:48.640 --> 2:37:51.480 that concerns me most about all of this is the 2:37:51.520 --> 2:37:55.720 implication of the implications for this is a tactic. We 2:37:55.840 --> 2:37:58.480 saw a version of this that was more limited in 2:37:58.560 --> 2:38:02.960 scope and time in Portland when this huge Trump caravan 2:38:03.640 --> 2:38:06.880 rolled through downtown, blocked off big chunks of downtown and 2:38:06.920 --> 2:38:10.520 like just maced and shot people with paintball guns at random, 2:38:10.520 --> 2:38:13.200 and it was kind of like, I think everyone there 2:38:13.280 --> 2:38:16.519 was surprised at how many folks they got for it. Um. 2:38:16.560 --> 2:38:19.200 This is a much more evolved version of the same 2:38:19.240 --> 2:38:21.200 tactic and it's kind of stuff we talked about in 2:38:21.200 --> 2:38:23.120 the season one of it could happen here. This idea 2:38:23.200 --> 2:38:27.959 of like people coming from these conservative majority areas in 2:38:28.000 --> 2:38:30.240 a place where the vast majority of people are liberal 2:38:30.280 --> 2:38:34.760 but centralized in the cities UM and blocking those cities 2:38:34.800 --> 2:38:40.279 off or otherwise disrupting their ability to transit UM, potentially 2:38:40.320 --> 2:38:43.320 their ability to get things shipped in like food UM, 2:38:43.360 --> 2:38:46.280 like their ability to use free movement UM. And we've 2:38:46.320 --> 2:38:48.480 seen pieces of this again in a bunch of places, 2:38:48.520 --> 2:38:51.000 and in Oregon during the wildfires, you had these rural 2:38:51.040 --> 2:38:53.520 communities setting up checkpoints and stuff looking for people from 2:38:53.520 --> 2:38:56.280 the cities that they could bill as Antifa. And it's 2:38:56.320 --> 2:38:58.920 this it's this world worrying trend for a couple of reasons. 2:38:58.959 --> 2:39:03.440 Number One, when you get people to do something like this, 2:39:03.600 --> 2:39:05.680 even if the city has hundreds of thousands of people, 2:39:05.959 --> 2:39:09.280 that's effectively too large a group to police UM. And 2:39:09.360 --> 2:39:11.600 the police don't want to police it anyway, so there's 2:39:11.600 --> 2:39:14.760 not even really an attempt to stop them UM. And 2:39:14.840 --> 2:39:17.760 it's a way in which the vast majority of Canada, 2:39:18.360 --> 2:39:21.080 at least based on the polling i'm aware of UM, 2:39:21.200 --> 2:39:24.640 is not in support of the causes these guys are backing. 2:39:24.760 --> 2:39:27.920 Was it of the country supports some level of like 2:39:28.040 --> 2:39:32.000 vaccine mandates. Um, if I'm remembering correctly the last one 2:39:32.000 --> 2:39:33.959 I read. So this is not a popular movement. It's 2:39:34.000 --> 2:39:36.760 not even super popular among the truckers. Like the actual 2:39:39.160 --> 2:39:40.760 it doesn't matter how many people in the cities you 2:39:40.760 --> 2:39:43.160 can get. If you can get fifty six people to 2:39:43.240 --> 2:39:46.480 do something like this, the police won't will not take action, 2:39:46.520 --> 2:39:49.440 and you can negatively impact the lives of a huge 2:39:49.520 --> 2:39:52.920 number of millions before it gets radical, right. That's when 2:39:52.920 --> 2:39:55.680 these guys are not coming in with guns with the 2:39:55.720 --> 2:39:59.080 express plan to eliminate people or trying to specifically block 2:39:59.200 --> 2:40:02.280 up food. They're just kind of sucking around now. But 2:40:02.360 --> 2:40:04.680 it's this kind of is this thing we've talked about 2:40:04.680 --> 2:40:06.879 where you have this is the thing in Canada and 2:40:06.920 --> 2:40:09.720 the United States, you had liberals kind of outsourcing the 2:40:09.760 --> 2:40:13.160 protection of society to this group of increasingly heavily armed 2:40:13.160 --> 2:40:16.280 and radicalized people who are now in a lot of 2:40:16.320 --> 2:40:20.879 cases fascists. Um. And that means that when there's a 2:40:20.920 --> 2:40:25.080 problem with a large chunk of people who hate everything 2:40:25.120 --> 2:40:28.080 you stand for, the people that you have completely outsourced 2:40:28.120 --> 2:40:31.480 protection to are all unfavor of fucking with you because 2:40:31.480 --> 2:40:35.000 they hate you. And it's it's a problem in Oregon, 2:40:35.080 --> 2:40:37.480 It's going to be a problem in fucking New York 2:40:37.560 --> 2:40:41.600 City or whatever at some point, it's a problem in Ottawa. Um, 2:40:41.720 --> 2:40:43.600 I don't know, Am I am I off base here? 2:40:43.680 --> 2:40:45.879 Am I am? I am You're not on base at all? 2:40:46.120 --> 2:40:49.440 And uh, like there isn't there isn't anything to to 2:40:49.560 --> 2:40:52.320 really elaborate on pass what you said the last time 2:40:52.360 --> 2:40:54.600 we spoke. I think Robert, you said there's not a 2:40:54.600 --> 2:40:57.360 whole lot. It was what you said that could really 2:40:57.440 --> 2:41:01.760 really be done with the vehicle occupation actic and unless 2:41:01.760 --> 2:41:03.440 a lot of people are willing to meet them with 2:41:03.480 --> 2:41:07.840 an equal force, which unfortunately Ottawa didn't have. Like it's 2:41:07.840 --> 2:41:11.640 an Ottawas. Ottawa's a relatively large city in Canada. It's 2:41:11.760 --> 2:41:13.720 there's over a million people that live here. It's also 2:41:13.879 --> 2:41:16.440 by land mass, I think, the largest city in Canada, 2:41:16.720 --> 2:41:18.720 like east to west. It's it's very spread out, so 2:41:18.720 --> 2:41:21.680 it's a low population density. So even the affected area 2:41:21.760 --> 2:41:27.040 downtown is actually like pretty small in relation to the 2:41:27.040 --> 2:41:30.039 city itself, which is pretty unfortunate. And like it's not 2:41:30.080 --> 2:41:34.119 a particularly packed downtown for a large SCE downtown. I am, 2:41:34.160 --> 2:41:39.279 I am curious kind of on the violence aspect um 2:41:39.400 --> 2:41:44.080 has Like I know, there's been like um increase in 2:41:44.160 --> 2:41:47.560 the death threats to members of parliament, like specifically liberal 2:41:47.560 --> 2:41:51.360 members of parliament, specifically liberal members of parliament who are 2:41:51.400 --> 2:41:56.240 women who are maybe not white of So I would 2:41:56.360 --> 2:41:58.600 curiously if if you have any more kind of information 2:41:58.680 --> 2:42:01.560 on that side of thing this and then how how 2:42:01.640 --> 2:42:04.600 violence has popped up in a few places throughout the 2:42:04.640 --> 2:42:10.199 past like a week. Basically, yeah, there's been a lot. 2:42:10.280 --> 2:42:13.800 So I mean, even if you're going by what's reported 2:42:13.840 --> 2:42:16.760 like right now, there is by most estimates under a 2:42:16.800 --> 2:42:19.520 thousand maybe at most a few thousand, very far spread 2:42:19.520 --> 2:42:22.400 out people as part of the convoy. As of yesterday, 2:42:22.400 --> 2:42:26.400 there's thirteen active police investigations, the police of the city, 2:42:26.480 --> 2:42:30.320 the City of Ottawa said in the An Oppressor. We 2:42:30.320 --> 2:42:33.280 obviously know when there's like thirteen active investigations in anything 2:42:33.400 --> 2:42:35.840 this big, there's way more that's not being reported, not 2:42:35.879 --> 2:42:42.160 being investigated. Um, like they took you know, like these 2:42:42.200 --> 2:42:46.039 things are going to thirteen is going to be resultful 2:42:46.040 --> 2:42:47.800 of something bad. So some of the things that happened 2:42:47.840 --> 2:42:51.120 Robert mentioned before the alleged assault on a houseless person 2:42:51.160 --> 2:42:55.120 inside of Shepherds of Good Hope in which a security 2:42:55.160 --> 2:42:58.879 guard was also called a racial slur. Uh. There was 2:42:59.040 --> 2:43:01.959 a house that played displayed a rainbow flag outside of 2:43:02.000 --> 2:43:07.360 it that had harassment and poop thrown at it. Um. 2:43:07.480 --> 2:43:09.400 They have been we need to get a hundred thousand 2:43:09.480 --> 2:43:12.240 people together to throw their own poop back at these people. 2:43:12.280 --> 2:43:15.200 It's the only way they'll learn. Yeah, fighting fire with 2:43:15.320 --> 2:43:19.560 fire is that that expression? I'm sure just emerged from 2:43:19.600 --> 2:43:25.039 just tossing poop at each other's strategy. It's meant for this. Yeah, 2:43:25.080 --> 2:43:27.440 there've been suggestions all of our social media channels on 2:43:27.600 --> 2:43:30.240 like here's how you can poop in snowbanks without getting caught. 2:43:31.240 --> 2:43:33.880 Businesses have been harassed, they've been violence, So like what 2:43:34.360 --> 2:43:37.200 I think maybe some context uh that isn't always known. 2:43:37.800 --> 2:43:41.120 In Ottawa on Saturday and until recently, dining in in 2:43:41.200 --> 2:43:44.440 restaurants wasn't allowed. We were actually in relatively strict lockdown 2:43:44.480 --> 2:43:48.400 following around the chron wave and a lot of people 2:43:48.440 --> 2:43:50.840 even coming like didn't know that. Like I spoke to 2:43:50.879 --> 2:43:54.200 people on Saturday who were like, hey, do you know 2:43:54.320 --> 2:43:56.800 like when the restaurants around here opens so we can 2:43:56.800 --> 2:43:58.039 like sit down for a meal. And I was like, 2:43:58.040 --> 2:43:59.800 there's no sitting down on auto this So what people 2:43:59.800 --> 2:44:01.760 were mean they were going inside cafes like two burns 2:44:01.800 --> 2:44:03.960 and stuff, and they were just refusing to leave and 2:44:04.040 --> 2:44:06.000 eating their food there anyways, And if there was no seats, 2:44:06.000 --> 2:44:08.440 they were just like eating in line. It was also 2:44:08.520 --> 2:44:11.560 minus twenty eight degrees in Ottawa on Saturday and very 2:44:11.640 --> 2:44:14.120 very cold on Sunday. There was an extreme cold weather warning, 2:44:14.840 --> 2:44:16.600 so especially when people brought their kids, there wasn't a 2:44:16.600 --> 2:44:18.800 lot of other options other than like swarm the malls 2:44:18.800 --> 2:44:20.680 and swarm restaurants. And even then the mall, the main 2:44:20.720 --> 2:44:23.720 mall downtown Rito Center, was closed part way throughout the 2:44:23.800 --> 2:44:27.520 day because it was not a safe place. So I 2:44:27.560 --> 2:44:33.000 already talked before about routes getting blocked. Also not physical violence, 2:44:33.040 --> 2:44:35.960 but honking has been keeping people awake. There's been endless 2:44:35.959 --> 2:44:39.560 honking if you watch video footage from it, and even 2:44:39.560 --> 2:44:41.840 in the background right now I'm coming from Ottawa, like 2:44:41.879 --> 2:44:45.520 I can hear honking in my background. Um, some people 2:44:45.600 --> 2:44:48.440 allegedly parked and then urinated on the tomb of an 2:44:48.520 --> 2:44:57.080 unknown soldier, which is yeah, this isn't political, is even 2:44:57.120 --> 2:44:58.920 the wrong way to describe a lot of the what's 2:44:59.040 --> 2:45:01.920 fun about this these people, it's that they suck. Yeah, 2:45:01.959 --> 2:45:05.920 it's fucking it's just silly. It's just fucking hooliganism. Uh. 2:45:05.959 --> 2:45:10.000 And that's yeah, it's it's fucking cooliganism. There's gonna be 2:45:10.000 --> 2:45:13.520 a lot more stories coming out, for sure. Uh as 2:45:13.560 --> 2:45:16.840 things progress, um of stories of arassment. Like I've talked 2:45:16.840 --> 2:45:19.840 to people who have gotten a cat call in the night. 2:45:20.480 --> 2:45:24.520 People getting violent altercations, street fights, and I'm sure are 2:45:24.520 --> 2:45:26.320 going to break out. It's kind of at a very 2:45:26.360 --> 2:45:28.280 tense point right now. And auto we're at that point, 2:45:28.280 --> 2:45:31.040 we're like, Okay, we're seeing some signs like coops getting 2:45:31.080 --> 2:45:35.760 thrown at the houses. What's gonna happen next? Because the 2:45:35.760 --> 2:45:39.560 police are saying they don't have a plan, and the 2:45:39.600 --> 2:45:44.000 truckers are saying they're not leaving. What's it like outside 2:45:44.000 --> 2:45:46.640 of Bottle Wall, across across all the other places where 2:45:46.640 --> 2:45:50.480 there's like similar activity happening. They're all looking to us 2:45:50.520 --> 2:45:53.600 and being concerned. From what I'm talking to, Uh, anti 2:45:53.600 --> 2:45:58.080 fascists and Alberta are are particularly concerned right now with 2:45:58.200 --> 2:46:03.440 the Goop protests. There's ongoing to uh, it keeps seeing 2:46:03.440 --> 2:46:07.600 popping up like US Canada border activities. In the same 2:46:07.720 --> 2:46:11.680 there's a few attempted convoys by Americans and even before 2:46:11.720 --> 2:46:14.400 in Europe there was a few attempts. Some got turned away. 2:46:14.440 --> 2:46:16.920 Some Americans got turned away at the Canadian borders. They 2:46:16.959 --> 2:46:23.160 weren't vaccinated. M Yeah, which is you know, like it's 2:46:23.200 --> 2:46:28.080 like you think, because that's the reason they're saying they're protesting, 2:46:28.160 --> 2:46:31.000 they would have remembered that and thought maybe that's gonna 2:46:31.080 --> 2:46:34.200 like come into play, But I don't. Yeah, I don't know, 2:46:34.200 --> 2:46:36.600 because there is a certain point where if you get 2:46:36.680 --> 2:46:39.119 enough people going, it would be interesting to see people 2:46:39.160 --> 2:46:44.039 really do just try to like drive through the border. Yeah. Yeah, 2:46:44.480 --> 2:46:46.320 And I mean there's been people like you look at 2:46:46.360 --> 2:46:47.959 social media channels, a lot of them saying like the 2:46:47.959 --> 2:46:50.920 borders are blocked right now with thousands of truckers supporting 2:46:50.920 --> 2:46:53.160 our cause. So if you saw that and you believed it, 2:46:53.160 --> 2:46:54.360 and then you went to the border and your turn 2:46:54.360 --> 2:46:56.320 away reading vaccine, you meant thought, well, I thought I 2:46:56.320 --> 2:46:59.360 had you know, nine people the same causes being we're 2:46:59.400 --> 2:47:01.800 ready to use worst, which begs the question, well, what 2:47:01.840 --> 2:47:06.120 happens when you do exactly? I don't want to find out. Yeah, 2:47:06.120 --> 2:47:10.000 that's yeah. That's the thing is like if if if 2:47:10.080 --> 2:47:12.360 they do, if they did have what they say they had, 2:47:12.600 --> 2:47:14.520 would they just start doing those things and not even 2:47:14.520 --> 2:47:16.080 think about it and not even think about like the 2:47:16.160 --> 2:47:19.600 politics of it. They're just doing it to do it. Yeah. 2:47:19.840 --> 2:47:22.280 I should also mention too, we talked last time about 2:47:24.240 --> 2:47:28.560 a Plaid Army slash Diaglon members comments. Uh. They were 2:47:28.720 --> 2:47:33.040 broadcast on the news about doing another quote January six, uh, 2:47:33.160 --> 2:47:35.080 and it came out the news to do was first 2:47:35.080 --> 2:47:37.199 reported by Frank magazine and I think by the Canadian 2:47:37.160 --> 2:47:40.040 Anti eight network that he was arrested on fire up 2:47:40.040 --> 2:47:44.120 stridges in the Scotia before coming here. Worth noting he 2:47:44.280 --> 2:47:47.199 was reporting live on Info Wars on the Alex Jones 2:47:47.200 --> 2:47:52.520 Stones Saturday before this came out and Derek Skid coverage. Yeah, 2:47:52.560 --> 2:47:55.560 Derek Sloan and Nazrael event were also on the same program, 2:47:55.600 --> 2:47:58.840 So I mentioned Info Wars before. That's that's great. That's 2:47:58.879 --> 2:48:02.200 what's going on there. Can you see any like beyond 2:48:02.400 --> 2:48:06.440 the conservative leadership, what other kind of political implications are 2:48:06.440 --> 2:48:09.840 people thinking about in Canada. It's really tense seeing what's 2:48:09.879 --> 2:48:12.600 gonna come for other cities. Also, Otto was expecting a 2:48:12.640 --> 2:48:16.280 second wave some other people in other places that kind 2:48:16.280 --> 2:48:17.560 of didn't think the first one is going to be 2:48:17.640 --> 2:48:19.640 duge eccess. We're saying, well, now that it's an occupation, 2:48:19.680 --> 2:48:22.640 we're coming, and police are even saying there's a second wave. 2:48:23.120 --> 2:48:26.640 It's a very tense place right now. We don't really 2:48:26.640 --> 2:48:31.080 know what to do. Community places are taking direct community 2:48:31.280 --> 2:48:34.720 members are talking about taking direct action because it's been 2:48:34.800 --> 2:48:37.120 so long. This isn't something that the City of Ottawa 2:48:37.160 --> 2:48:41.200 is particularly used to, unfortunately in my lifetime, and so 2:48:41.240 --> 2:48:44.840 the ramifications of the future pretty jarring. But what's alarming 2:48:44.959 --> 2:48:49.360 is how successful this occupation was with a relatively small number. 2:48:49.360 --> 2:48:51.680 I think the highest estimate it was eighteen thousand people 2:48:52.320 --> 2:48:54.600 into a city of over a million, which isn't really 2:48:54.640 --> 2:48:56.400 that many when you think about it, but the strategy 2:48:56.520 --> 2:48:59.360 was very very effective. Do you think about how many 2:49:00.120 --> 2:49:02.840 fighters it took for Josh to take control of mozl 2:49:03.720 --> 2:49:06.720 if people if there's not resistance, like, there's only really 2:49:07.400 --> 2:49:09.400 a few areas of a city that you need to 2:49:09.520 --> 2:49:12.000 occupy in order to have a great deal of control 2:49:12.040 --> 2:49:15.400 over what can be done. Yeah, And that's the tough 2:49:15.400 --> 2:49:17.120 part is they have a lot of control over that 2:49:17.160 --> 2:49:19.480 small area in residents lives. They don't have a lot 2:49:19.480 --> 2:49:25.040 of control over Parliament, which is what they're protesting for. Yeah. 2:49:25.240 --> 2:49:27.840 I'm also just to see has the Canadian military said 2:49:27.840 --> 2:49:32.680 anything about these protests and the situation. So the Autawa 2:49:32.680 --> 2:49:34.640 police chief in his pressure day was asked a lot 2:49:34.720 --> 2:49:37.680 about that, and he's still shying away. He's still saying 2:49:37.879 --> 2:49:41.280 he doesn't think military is the only option, which if 2:49:41.320 --> 2:49:43.880 you're an activist on the other side of things and 2:49:44.000 --> 2:49:47.400 worried about police escalation hurting you in the future, that 2:49:47.560 --> 2:49:49.840 might be a good thing to hear. Yea an a 2:49:49.959 --> 2:49:54.039 see of shitty news. I'm not convinced that the military 2:49:54.240 --> 2:49:58.000 would fix the problem. I'm not either. And also Ottawa 2:49:58.120 --> 2:50:01.600 had other police forces coming to They said they're spending 2:50:01.600 --> 2:50:05.320 eight hundred thousand dollars a day, uh initially to just 2:50:05.840 --> 2:50:09.960 cost of policing. Yeah. They also said they've only, like bylaws, 2:50:10.000 --> 2:50:12.640 only had a hundred fifty tickets since this whole thing 2:50:12.680 --> 2:50:16.720 started in the occupied zone. So it's it's unclear what 2:50:16.760 --> 2:50:18.720 a lot of them did other than you know, keep 2:50:18.800 --> 2:50:21.800 up appearances. Uh. Like I was walking around I saw 2:50:21.920 --> 2:50:24.440 York Region police officers walking around with their patches. That's 2:50:24.480 --> 2:50:29.360 hundreds of kilometers away from Ottawa. So the police presence, 2:50:29.680 --> 2:50:31.800 especially on the weekend, was not low. We we had 2:50:31.840 --> 2:50:35.880 plenty mhm. They either didn't know what to do, I 2:50:35.959 --> 2:50:39.200 thought it would die later, or a mixture of all 2:50:39.280 --> 2:50:43.320 the above. And there's been talked to mixtures of Some 2:50:43.480 --> 2:50:45.920 police officers have not been happy with it, but there 2:50:45.920 --> 2:50:47.760 hasn't been really anything in the news yet because no 2:50:47.800 --> 2:50:49.680 one's come forward. A lot of like tweets of like 2:50:50.920 --> 2:50:53.800 from reporter saying I have an anonymous source in the 2:50:53.840 --> 2:50:57.000 auto police. It says they wish more actions were taken, 2:50:58.080 --> 2:51:00.560 some saying otherwise, it's not really united it right now, 2:51:00.680 --> 2:51:06.000 And yeah, it's scary. Is there any counter protests being 2:51:06.000 --> 2:51:10.360 planned for Ottawa? If I knew, i'd say so, because 2:51:10.400 --> 2:51:12.240 by the time this error is it would have happened, 2:51:12.240 --> 2:51:15.760 so I could be safe to talk about. But fortunately 2:51:16.959 --> 2:51:19.400 I'm not really insure. I'm not actually sure, but it 2:51:19.480 --> 2:51:23.320 might not be the best person to ask. Okay, Yeah, 2:51:23.879 --> 2:51:27.760 we're keeping an eye out. Well. The good news is 2:51:28.320 --> 2:51:32.840 that all men die, and so long as men die, 2:51:33.040 --> 2:51:37.119 liberty will never perish. Right, that's good. It's an upside. 2:51:37.560 --> 2:51:41.560 That is an upside, it's an up positive shot. All right, Well, 2:51:42.360 --> 2:51:44.640 that's gonna do it for us. We'll keep an eye 2:51:44.680 --> 2:51:47.800 on this and um what what results from it, because 2:51:47.800 --> 2:51:52.800 it's all pretty concerning, um and worth having having an eye. 2:51:52.800 --> 2:51:55.400 And I'm particularly curious is to just like what kind 2:51:55.440 --> 2:51:59.480 of direct community responses to this develop because I think 2:51:59.520 --> 2:52:02.039 that's gonna wind up being the only long term solution. 2:52:02.560 --> 2:52:04.480 You know. It's kind of what people saw in Portland 2:52:04.640 --> 2:52:07.920 that there's a there's a degree to which like the 2:52:08.000 --> 2:52:10.520 only thing that really works as a response is is 2:52:11.240 --> 2:52:15.000 out numbering them. Yeah. On on that note, it might 2:52:15.040 --> 2:52:18.680 be maybe not the smoothest transition, But there are actually 2:52:18.720 --> 2:52:22.160 some Autowa Mutual Aid funds and then Advocate Secrets that 2:52:22.240 --> 2:52:26.039 are doing some some cool stuff. And there's that there's 2:52:26.080 --> 2:52:30.000 too many of the list for everyone, but others have 2:52:30.040 --> 2:52:31.920 compiled lists, and I'm gonna point to you there So 2:52:32.480 --> 2:52:35.680 ROSE Ottawa which stands for Rainbow Autowa Student Experience as 2:52:35.680 --> 2:52:39.160 serves two s l G B t q I A 2:52:39.240 --> 2:52:44.200 plus post secondary students on unseated algonquin on a Shnave territory. No, 2:52:44.320 --> 2:52:46.880 they have closed op donations for themselves following a wonderful 2:52:46.920 --> 2:52:49.280 spike recently. They have a list of black lead and 2:52:49.320 --> 2:52:52.280 black empowering organizations on their website with donation links and 2:52:52.280 --> 2:52:57.080 you can reach that at Rose Ottawa dot org slash donations. Uh, 2:52:57.120 --> 2:53:00.000 there's a cool little Instagram account called Transit is Beautiful 2:53:00.120 --> 2:53:02.120 O T T O T T stands for Ottawa and 2:53:02.120 --> 2:53:04.720 that's all one word. It's been plugging small fundraisers for 2:53:04.840 --> 2:53:07.760 queer folks affected by the Convoy, including housing support on 2:53:07.800 --> 2:53:11.000 their Instagram. Again, that's trans is Beautiful O T T 2:53:11.280 --> 2:53:15.080 on Instagram. Uh. Something we didn't get to talk about, 2:53:15.440 --> 2:53:18.280 which is ram Ranch Ram Ranch dot c A r 2:53:18.360 --> 2:53:21.560 A n dash Ranch dot c A a website was 2:53:21.600 --> 2:53:24.120 set up in the name of trolling the convoy zelo 2:53:24.240 --> 2:53:28.000 chats and has been doing a fantastic job about There's 2:53:28.000 --> 2:53:30.240 a whole army of trolls in the truckers Ello chats 2:53:30.280 --> 2:53:34.680 and it's been really entertaining to tune into. They've compiled 2:53:34.680 --> 2:53:36.720 the list of charities on their website. You can check 2:53:36.760 --> 2:53:39.160 that out at ram dash Ranch dot c A and 2:53:39.200 --> 2:53:44.959 clicking on the Rancher's donation zone. And yeah, where can 2:53:45.240 --> 2:53:47.880 where can people find you? On the internet? People can 2:53:47.879 --> 2:53:50.119 find me on the internet some super active on Twitter 2:53:50.760 --> 2:53:58.880 at at spineless L where it spineless the letter L fantastic. Well, hopefully, 2:54:00.280 --> 2:54:03.400 hopefully this gets all resolved and I don't need to 2:54:04.040 --> 2:54:06.520 fly up to Canada to go to a protest, and 2:54:06.720 --> 2:54:09.680 if if we do, that'll be fun. I've been wanting 2:54:09.680 --> 2:54:11.440 to go to Canada for a minute. Yeah I can, 2:54:11.560 --> 2:54:14.640 we can. We can take drugs at tim Morton's. That 2:54:14.879 --> 2:54:18.200 would be fun. Yeah. God, you know, I haven't vomited 2:54:18.240 --> 2:54:21.840 in a Tim Horton's bathroom in a long time. Our 2:54:22.360 --> 2:54:25.320 local McDonald's that got famous on the internet for a 2:54:25.440 --> 2:54:28.320 fistfight that someone pulled a raccoon out of their backpack 2:54:28.440 --> 2:54:31.240 during had to actually stop being twenty four hours after 2:54:31.280 --> 2:54:33.440 the mayor pleaded with them because it was using up 2:54:33.480 --> 2:54:37.039 too many police resources. That is the best kind of 2:54:37.080 --> 2:54:46.920 place in a year. That's so dope. Oh god, yeah, 2:54:47.000 --> 2:54:49.160 I want to I want to set up somewhere on 2:54:49.200 --> 2:54:51.800 the border in the East coast to tim Horton's, directly 2:54:51.840 --> 2:54:54.440 across the street from a waffle house and just let 2:54:54.480 --> 2:54:59.879 them fight. Uh well, yeah, we we do. We we 2:55:00.000 --> 2:55:01.920 do miss that here. That's that's in the year. You'll 2:55:01.959 --> 2:55:03.400 have to bring that for you have to bring that over, 2:55:03.440 --> 2:55:05.920 bring a waffle Houst finds. Over all you need to 2:55:05.959 --> 2:55:08.679 do is watch a man get stabbed and then spiritually 2:55:08.680 --> 2:55:14.440 you're at a waffle house. That that that ties back 2:55:14.440 --> 2:55:17.400 to the future of the Convoy. You're right, Well, that 2:55:19.440 --> 2:55:35.360 does it for us today, everybody, We will see you later. Hey, 2:55:35.400 --> 2:55:38.520 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 2:55:38.520 --> 2:55:41.280 now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could 2:55:41.320 --> 2:55:43.760 Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. Or 2:55:43.800 --> 2:55:46.520 more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool 2:55:46.560 --> 2:55:48.560 zone media dot com, or check us out on the 2:55:48.560 --> 2:55:51.280 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 2:55:51.320 --> 2:55:54.240 to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, 2:55:54.320 --> 2:55:57.760 updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. 2:55:58.000 --> 2:55:58.800 Thanks for listening.