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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. What a all right? The

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Speaker 1: show started, Garrison. Hey, we're gonna be talking about Canada again,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, um, and to discuss Canada and politics and

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Speaker 1: the happenings here. We have another journalist who writes for

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Speaker 1: I Believe, Anti Hate Canada and like the Canadian Antia

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Speaker 1: Hate Network and also Vice. I believe right, I've written

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Speaker 1: for Vice. I'm currently researching full time and extremism researcher or.

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Speaker 1: It's a new initiative called the Online Hate Research and

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Speaker 1: Education Project. It's actually partnered with Canadian TI Hate Network

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Speaker 1: and it's it's under the new Burger Holocaust Education Center,

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Speaker 1: which might be renaming very soon. I'm I'm very excited

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Speaker 1: for you guys to get into a Twitter fight with

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Speaker 1: James Lindsay can't wait. So, yes, Dan here has joined

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Speaker 1: us to talk about Canada because I've gotten a few

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Speaker 1: messages about this thing that's happening. My mother, who's in

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Speaker 1: Alberta called me a few days ago to talk about

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Speaker 1: this thing that's happening. So it's been, it's it's I'm

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Speaker 1: getting a lot of things and it's definitely worth discussing,

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Speaker 1: specifically on some of the rhetoric that people are using

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Speaker 1: around this. So I'm actually I'm gonna I'm gonna hand

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Speaker 1: it to Dan to talk about what like how did

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Speaker 1: this thing like what is it and how did it

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Speaker 1: kind of get started? Yeah, well, so Garrison is not alone,

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Speaker 1: by the way, for anyone not in Canada. Every single

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Speaker 1: person's mother in the entire country is called and asthen

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Speaker 1: about it. I just got another message literally right now,

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Speaker 1: like literally this second. Moms of Canada have been activated.

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Speaker 1: Moms of Canada have been activated, but not in exactly

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Speaker 1: the same way that they're being perceived to be all

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Speaker 1: the way. So the quote unquote trucker convoy, which I

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Speaker 1: might get into a little bit later, but I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of like against even calling it a trucker convoy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was started on January and by a former Wigsit

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Speaker 1: party now called the Maverick Party member Tomorrow Lich and

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Speaker 1: a group of like very active far right grassroots protesters.

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Speaker 1: You do a lot of organizing like this, uh, and

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Speaker 1: most of them, most of their activities kind of go

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Speaker 1: back to Yeah, they go back a decent a decent amount. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like this. I mean there's links to people that have

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Speaker 1: been doing it in the nineties in Canada's movement right now,

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Speaker 1: but a non binding motion against I think it's a

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Speaker 1: M three a few years ago really mobilized people and

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Speaker 1: it's kind of been more consistent since then of the

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Speaker 1: same groups of people. Yeah, that's that's when we talked

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Speaker 1: about in our first Canada episodes about kind of how

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Speaker 1: we got to that point and now like those same

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Speaker 1: people are still kind of behind what's going on right now.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there's this alleged caravan of truckers of all

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Speaker 1: the truckers in Canada going going to Ottawa, um in Canada,

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Speaker 1: all the truckers, and so this thing was kind of

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Speaker 1: originally organized by some like known far right figures and

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Speaker 1: the people associated with like the Canadian Yellow Vests, which

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Speaker 1: kind of died down, but it didn't die down. It

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Speaker 1: just morphed right, morphed into a very strong anti vax

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Speaker 1: presence in Canada. Right now, the anti vacks movement is

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Speaker 1: getting a lot of popularity in Canada, and it's run

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Speaker 1: by these guys who were doing Wexit, which is like

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Speaker 1: West Exit, but for like it's it's it's like for

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Speaker 1: Alberta NBC to go away from Canada because the rest

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Speaker 1: of Canada's too liberal. Um so what exit and the

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Speaker 1: Elves have really changed all their focuses into this anti

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Speaker 1: backs thing as a way to do recruiting, and they've

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Speaker 1: prompted this kind of movement of truckers going to Ottawa.

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Speaker 1: UM for a few specific reasons which I think Dan

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Speaker 1: probably knows a little bit more about than I do.

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Speaker 1: Like I I know the gist of it, but you've

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Speaker 1: been focus on the on this slightly more than I have. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess the main reason is it works, um like,

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Speaker 1: just from the perspective of getting attention and being able

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Speaker 1: to get a message out. Um. There's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of traction on this that these groups don't normally get.

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Speaker 1: I think the last trucker convoy um that was done

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Speaker 1: under this sort of umbrella it had like nine I

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Speaker 1: think was the total amount of like trucks that made

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Speaker 1: it to Ottawa the last time this was trying to

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Speaker 1: be done and it was basically the same demands in

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Speaker 1: the same reasons. So this one was started on January

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Speaker 1: and it didn't get that much buzzed. There's a couple

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Speaker 1: of days. The original goal was set at a hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact time, but once

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Speaker 1: it hit that pretty fast, and it hit the first

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Speaker 1: million pretty fast in ways that like these fundraisers really

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Speaker 1: really don't like the last big one we saw in

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Speaker 1: Canada that was quite alarming in that fast cap out

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Speaker 1: at under four hundred thousand dollars and that was um

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Speaker 1: for a barbecue for a barbecue that got defied protests

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Speaker 1: last year and UH ended up getting like all it's

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Speaker 1: it's a bad door shut down. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: more money now in this one. Yeah, because this this fundraiser,

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Speaker 1: which was supposed to go like hand in hand with

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Speaker 1: these truckers protesting the vaccine mandates because they're upset that

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Speaker 1: they're not allowed to truck into these states because they're

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Speaker 1: not vaccinated. So they have decided to all truck into

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Speaker 1: Ottawa as like a pseudo strike slash like blockade type thing,

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Speaker 1: because they're saying that they were not going to do

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Speaker 1: our jobs and we're gonna kind of block off access

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Speaker 1: to these roads, um until this mandate is is removed. Now.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the funny thing here is that the man

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Speaker 1: date that to enter to not being allowed to enter

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Speaker 1: the States to do your trucking. That's not a mandate

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Speaker 1: by Canada. That's done, but that like that's the rule

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Speaker 1: in the United States because you're the United States, they're

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Speaker 1: the States is actually the ones to be the blockage

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Speaker 1: of the Canadian government has no control over this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not like it's not actually the thing. The way

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Speaker 1: to get them out and support is incredibly effective because

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Speaker 1: something I think like twenty percent there was a survey

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Speaker 1: recently of Canadians are against the mandate, which is like

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Speaker 1: really huge um for like Canada's anti vax movement to

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Speaker 1: kind of get that like support and like a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are mobilized too. By there's a trend of posting.

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Speaker 1: It started from four chain and twenty team, but it's

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Speaker 1: getting revived a lot again now of people posting like

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Speaker 1: empty grocery stores. Even a Conservative member of parliament recently

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Speaker 1: posted an empty grocery store. And as for people's emails

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Speaker 1: to try to like change the laws, it turned out

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Speaker 1: to be from the UK. It was a stock photo. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And there's been like even like the stories themselves have

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Speaker 1: had to come out and make statements being like we're

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Speaker 1: not we're not empty, we have we have, we are

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Speaker 1: in the process if we restocking. That's happened the US

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Speaker 1: to where it's like we're literally emptying that shelf to

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Speaker 1: move stuff with shelf. We've had really bad snowstorms for

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Speaker 1: a lot of the real photos of like empty shelves

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Speaker 1: and it's just like, oh no salads tap out and

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Speaker 1: the stories just make a statement it's like, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: had two snowstorms a day in a row in ock.

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Speaker 1: But like the narrative that they're trying to push is

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Speaker 1: like these these mandates are causing these shortages um and

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Speaker 1: and the propaganda is working even though it's all at

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Speaker 1: a false premise because first of all, it's not like

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Speaker 1: that that those aren't that, that's not causting that and

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Speaker 1: second of all, complainly to Canadas, that's not the Canada's

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Speaker 1: not the one who's making the restrictions in the States

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Speaker 1: are the one that's that's lucky from doing this. But

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Speaker 1: but it's it's not actually about these issues. It's that's

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Speaker 1: not the reason why you're getting all these people driving

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Speaker 1: to Ottawa because there is a lot of people. There's

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Speaker 1: not many trucks, but but there is there is a

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Speaker 1: decent amount of people. You know that it's that that

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Speaker 1: are that are going this because it's not it's not

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Speaker 1: actually about these specific issues. It's this general um like

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Speaker 1: seething hatred of Trudeau and like a generalized grievance that

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Speaker 1: has gotten this broad support. It's gotten enough financial backing

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Speaker 1: the fundraisers what like like over six million dollars now um.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's not like it's just what it actually

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Speaker 1: is is an incoherent kind of intention just to go

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Speaker 1: to the capital and cause problems, right that that's what

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Speaker 1: they're actually that. That's what like the underlying thing is

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Speaker 1: for a lot of a lot of the like explaining

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Speaker 1: why it's gotten so picked up. Some some official demands

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Speaker 1: like have been put out and they would be even

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Speaker 1: more confusing like to read than like some of them are.

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Speaker 1: There A couple of the most recent ones are just

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Speaker 1: very general like stop this divisive nature that our government

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Speaker 1: is imposing kind of thing, like I'm paraphrasing, but it's

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Speaker 1: it's really quite bland. Um. Some demands from sagittal groups involved.

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Speaker 1: One they say they won't leave until Trudeau steps down.

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Speaker 1: Others say at one point said until every politician stopped down,

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Speaker 1: stepped down. I think that was when before something kind

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Speaker 1: of pushed in more realisticals into the movement. But like

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Speaker 1: in terms of like what they're talking about, for like

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Speaker 1: the rhetoric surrounding it, We're seeing a lot of rhetoric

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Speaker 1: around the sentence being like we this can be our

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Speaker 1: version of January six, but like they're saying that like

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Speaker 1: in a good way, like that's that's the thing that

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Speaker 1: at least some of the organizers, and then it's being

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Speaker 1: carried out into like the generalized rhetoric is that this

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Speaker 1: this should be our own version of this, which is

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Speaker 1: which is interesting on a few ways. But like also

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Speaker 1: like this would not have been said like seven months ago,

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Speaker 1: but it's being said now, which means like there's been

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Speaker 1: a shift in how January six is being viewed. There

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Speaker 1: was this initial like really distancing and now it's like

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Speaker 1: it's becoming almost like more acceptable to acknowledge that it

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Speaker 1: was is maybe a good thing in your eyes, And

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Speaker 1: it's like, that's an interesting rhetorical shift that that's been

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Speaker 1: going on. But then it's also concerning just like a

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Speaker 1: regular level to be like, yeah, these people wanted, these

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Speaker 1: people are saying they want to do their own January six.

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Speaker 1: That has obviously physical implications for all these people trying

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Speaker 1: to drive to Ottawa um do either blocking off roads

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Speaker 1: or just like making the government inoperable. Yeah, a coat

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Speaker 1: streamer or a streamer in what's called the plat Army.

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Speaker 1: And now that's sometimes kind of just being rebranded as

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Speaker 1: like Diagalon network quote unquote, which we can get into more,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's gonna be sillier. Yeah, they're they're kind

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Speaker 1: of their own they're their own issue for later. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're their own issue. But it was one of their

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Speaker 1: streamers who is very tangently connected to like a lot

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Speaker 1: of the the far right people that are involved in

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Speaker 1: this protest movement, leaning up to an in fact, Pat King,

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Speaker 1: who is officially one of the organizers of the convoy

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Speaker 1: until he wasn't and then he was again. That was

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Speaker 1: a whole dramatic thing for a like he streamed alongside

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Speaker 1: Plaid Army guys before um so someone on Plaid Army said,

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Speaker 1: and I would quote, I would like to see r

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Speaker 1: O in January sixth event see some of those truckers

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Speaker 1: plow right through that sixteen football and on January that

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Speaker 1: was put up on CTV News made it live, and

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Speaker 1: it's kind of scare a lot of people. I think

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Speaker 1: at that point, former Conservative leader Andrew Sheer had already

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Speaker 1: voiced support for the convoy. There's been a lot of

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Speaker 1: other like members of parliaments voicing support for the convoy.

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Speaker 1: H some of whom really didn't seem to know like

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Speaker 1: what was involved and really just kind of heard like

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Speaker 1: in passing, Oh it's against these mandates and I opposed

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Speaker 1: these mandates too, and it's like, if it think it's true,

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Speaker 1: DEALU based well side out, it's gonna help you. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna help your political career. Yeah, yeah, it's completely true.

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Speaker 1: So have they actually started like blocking roads or is

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Speaker 1: it just a bunch of random people driving down to

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Speaker 1: like driving. So there's there's a few different like converging

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Speaker 1: points of the convoy. I think I would say probably

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Speaker 1: the biggest one. Um, but it's it's hard to kind

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Speaker 1: of keep track. Started in British Columbia and it's going

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Speaker 1: so for this, I'm sure not everyone knows like math

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Speaker 1: for Canada. So like Burtish Columbia is like our west coast,

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Speaker 1: that's our our California. UM, and Ottawa is it's close

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Speaker 1: to the west and it's in Ontario, but it's on

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Speaker 1: the border of Quebec and Ontario and that's where our

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Speaker 1: parliament is. That's our capital city. So it's coming from

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Speaker 1: every which way, but I think the largest contingent comes

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Speaker 1: from British Columbia and it just basically goes eastward to Ottawa,

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Speaker 1: picking up people along the way. Yeah, yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's heading in that direction. Um, how do

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Speaker 1: we know about I know some people have kind of

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Speaker 1: already some people have kind of already sort of arrived

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Speaker 1: in Ottawa, but most mostly people are expected to more

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Speaker 1: arrive in the next Like, well, we're recording this Thursday night,

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Speaker 1: so this episode will probably come out on Monday. Um,

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Speaker 1: people are expected to arrive on Saturday is the day

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Speaker 1: that expt people expecting like everybody to be there at

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Speaker 1: least that the understanding of it. The convoy itself arrives Saturday. Um,

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Speaker 1: there are people like coming from further east who are

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Speaker 1: like staying overnight in town and kind of just showing

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Speaker 1: up the parliament event. So like, by by all accounts,

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Speaker 1: the parliament show will probably be a lot bigger than

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Speaker 1: the so far. Yeah, I guess we haven't mentioned numbers yet. Sorry, numbers,

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Speaker 1: nor like what what they actually really plan on doing

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Speaker 1: once they get there, because it's it's been so much

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Speaker 1: talking about like why this got started and what's the

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Speaker 1: like driving motivational factors. But yeah, like their their goal

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Speaker 1: is to get to a place and do a thing,

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Speaker 1: and that's the Yeah, the thing is that thing? It's

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Speaker 1: mostly unclear. I have seen discussions about like blocking on

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Speaker 1: like doing like trying to assemble like a trucking strike, um,

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Speaker 1: and then like blocking off accesses so that the everyone

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Speaker 1: is forced to obey their demands or else like the

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Speaker 1: country will shut down. UM. Then some people maybe are

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Speaker 1: just kind of doing it as a one day protest.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it again. It is it is. It is

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Speaker 1: pretty unclear, but people are headed to their UM. What

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Speaker 1: what is the what is the numbers? At least from

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Speaker 1: where we can see, like online and stuff. So their

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Speaker 1: numbers have been the number of fifty tucks people became

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Speaker 1: trucks very quickly. Um, and that same number. I think

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Speaker 1: Rogan repeated it, I know said it. Yeah, yeah, Joe

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Speaker 1: Rogan said it. THEO Fleury went on Laura Ingram and

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Speaker 1: repeated the fifty thou numbers. He said, fifty thousand truckers,

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Speaker 1: not trucks specifically. Um. As far as I know, THEO

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Speaker 1: Fleury has no official involvement Convoy and it's just a

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Speaker 1: fan and it's just repeating some numbers that like organizes

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Speaker 1: themselves have kind of echoed. Um. This is also complicated

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Speaker 1: for me because this is very troubling in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways. But also I'm a huge fan of the

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Speaker 1: song Convoy, so this is really devastating. Please continue, It's

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Speaker 1: all right. Yeah, So Canada spurr It protests movement has

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Speaker 1: kind of habited doing this in February of Kelly and Farcas,

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Speaker 1: who's like a mainstay of the anti mask anti backs movement. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and in between when I'm talking about and right now

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Speaker 1: actually dated Pat King for a while, who's kind of

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Speaker 1: the most outspoken person organizing The current convoy claimed that

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Speaker 1: a hundred thousand people were coming to Parliament for what

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Speaker 1: was then like an anti mask demonstration. Before the event,

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Speaker 1: data will look changed to fifty uh. And I was

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Speaker 1: actually there, it looked closer to like two people. I

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Speaker 1: had friends that had counted like a hundreds and seventy people,

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Speaker 1: so not quite fifty uh. For all intents and purposes,

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Speaker 1: the current one will be longer. Reporters doing great journalism

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Speaker 1: along the way have estimated up to like four hundred

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Speaker 1: people so far um, including I think fifteen trucks outside

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Speaker 1: the Bass Pro shop in Toronto this afternoon. I was counted.

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Speaker 1: Side note, if nothing else, got to give them points

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Speaker 1: for stopping at Bass Pro in Toronto. It's a pretty

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Speaker 1: sweet bass do little good bass Pro shop. My favorite

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Speaker 1: is the one they built into the Giant Pyramid. Yeah

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Speaker 1: obvious Nashville baby, so the best pro in Toronto if

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Speaker 1: you're ever in town, Robert, it's the only place around

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Speaker 1: that I've been told it sells sub Sonic twenty two rounds.

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Speaker 1: So if you're like in the woods, so I feel

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Speaker 1: like in the woods, but like you don't want to

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Speaker 1: like scare your neighbors because the woods aren't bad. Big. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I used to have some friends and I used to

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Speaker 1: go shooting in a suburban neighborhood with two because it's technical,

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Speaker 1: don't don't do you can definitely it was there was

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Speaker 1: it was legal. Oh right, Canada doesn't I do not.

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Speaker 1: I don't endorse the you might have might have to

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Speaker 1: cut this part out for regional sharing. Go leave this

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Speaker 1: all late, just a bunch of words, make it nonsense

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Speaker 1: with bleeping please continue. Yeah, so only fifteen trucks were

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Speaker 1: counted by CBC at that point. Um, and like videos

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Speaker 1: and stuff have been yeah, yeah, slightly short. But I

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Speaker 1: think by the time by Saturday, I think there's a

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Speaker 1: decent chance that there might be maybe around fifty trucks

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Speaker 1: to a hundred trucks. If there's anything more than like

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Speaker 1: five hundred, all of the media footage will look like

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Speaker 1: there's fifty. That's enough trucks, Like nobody's cameras going to

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Speaker 1: be able to show the extent of them realistically. And

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Speaker 1: then yeah, once they're there, it's unclear what they want

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Speaker 1: to do. Some people just want to do the function

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Speaker 1: up thing. Some people want to carry on the tradition

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Speaker 1: of like what the most of the anti like vacs

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Speaker 1: anti mass protests in Canada have been which have been

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Speaker 1: pretty big, but it's been, it's been, it's been mostly

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Speaker 1: standing with signs UM. So it is, it is. It

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Speaker 1: is really unclear because again most of the truckers in

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Speaker 1: Canada probably are not going to be there nor to

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Speaker 1: necessarily endorse this idea. UM nor is like right because

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Speaker 1: they're pressing the they're they're initial issues, not even based

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Speaker 1: on an actual like thing. So it is. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure how many people are really gonna show up because

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Speaker 1: I don't know even how specific it is to an issue.

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Speaker 1: UM one one just really interesting, funny, interesting thing that

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Speaker 1: I thought about is like with with some of these

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Speaker 1: people UM you know talking about you know, going to

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Speaker 1: Ottawa and not leaving until the mandates are dropped with

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Speaker 1: the entire government resigns. Like these people who are talking

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Speaker 1: about this like block engine shortage and stuff are also

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Speaker 1: like the same people who get very angry and indigenous

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Speaker 1: people for blocking off roads and trails um for like

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Speaker 1: oil and like pipeline protests. A lot of them, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: some of them. Some of them are indulged in pretending

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Speaker 1: and stuff like pat king back in September, um kind

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Speaker 1: of went on like a kick where he just let

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Speaker 1: a lot of people believe he was indigenous and claimed

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Speaker 1: someone not correct then that is that is weird, and

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Speaker 1: a family member of him went on Facebook and like

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Speaker 1: bombarded people with information that he was not in fact indigenous,

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Speaker 1: and it was all very weird and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people held them to comments in the past where he

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Speaker 1: talked about Anglo Saxon's having the strongest bloodlines. Uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is I think Pat Pat King probably deserves his

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Speaker 1: own little deep dive on one of the pods. But

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Speaker 1: but yeah, like it's it is like with all the

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Speaker 1: people talking about blockads and stuff all you most of

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Speaker 1: them coming from like the western side of Canada. Um

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Speaker 1: it is it is uh yeah, like you're you're talking

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Speaker 1: about all these things, and like there's really big pro

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Speaker 1: oil sentiments and all of the in all of this

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Speaker 1: crowd because a lot of it is connected to financial

359
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 1: and political stuff, not necessarily even this vaccine issue. It's

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Speaker 1: been more like a symbol to represent their general kind

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Speaker 1: of upsettedness at the way at the way things are

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Speaker 1: going for them. It's interesting to me. So when I

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Speaker 1: first heard about this, my I was. I was like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: so this is gonna be like the Chilean truckers. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, well this is really bad. But

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Speaker 1: it's like it's interesting to me, like how you people

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Speaker 1: they've been able to mobilize, Like that's like not a

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Speaker 1: large number of truckers, Like HiT's yeah, it looks like

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Speaker 1: a lot of like vehicles when you when you see

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Speaker 1: like footage photos and videos like like in I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: like a lot of like Telegram and Facebook groups of

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Speaker 1: just people just like sharing pictures and photos of the

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Speaker 1: rally of the convoy passing through their talent and like

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00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 1: it's like what Robert said, like it's here when it

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Speaker 1: fills out both sides of the camera and you have

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Speaker 1: a wide depth of field, it looks huge and it's

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Speaker 1: it's really hard to count. Uh. The money is preposterous,

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00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,439
Speaker 1: also said note on on the money um. The funds

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Speaker 1: were frozen a few days ago on the twenty five,

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Speaker 1: but today one million dollars was released back to them

381
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Speaker 1: because they gave go fund me a pretty clear plan

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Speaker 1: allegedly according to go fund me, for for how they're

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Speaker 1: gonna distribute it. The rest of the it's it's I

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Speaker 1: think it's like six point seven million. Now, so the

385
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,159
Speaker 1: rest of the five point seven million I think is

386
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Speaker 1: still frozen. Okay, it is, it is, so it is

387
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 1: so much money. Uh, yeah, we should do something like that.

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Speaker 1: They could They could actually buy truck nuts for fifty

389
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Speaker 1: tho truckers, which is the most I've seen them. Guests

390
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 1: truckers are coming. They could buy twenty truck nuts off

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Speaker 1: Amazon for all of them and still have the vast

392
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Speaker 1: majority of their funds left over. Yeah, but see, that

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Speaker 1: would be an act of actual heroism, and they're not

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Speaker 1: going to do that. The reason why I wanted to

395
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Speaker 1: talk about this is one to like acknowledge that it's happening, right,

396
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 1: acknowledge the tactics that they're using in terms of trying

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Speaker 1: to go into an urban area and block off like

398
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,120
Speaker 1: trade routes essentially um, And then I wanted to talk

399
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,160
Speaker 1: about like, first of all, it doesn't matter that like

400
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: the fact that this is happening is divorced from any

401
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 1: kind of direct cause, right because they're they're actual grievance

402
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 1: is false and their grievance doesn't really actually matter. It

403
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 1: just needs there needed to be some kind of cultural

404
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: or propaganda push in order for this physical action to happen.

405
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 1: And that's been done. It doesn't even need to be

406
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 1: like coherent. Um. And then escalation people driving here doing

407
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: this thing. And then I know there was this one interview,

408
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 1: UM I forgot on what news channel, but the interviewed

409
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Speaker 1: this one trucker guy part of a part of this

410
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: part of this convey in my hometown of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.

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Speaker 1: Um and he's he said, UM, I advocate civil war.

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Speaker 1: If people don't want to step up, we have guns,

413
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 1: will have some we'll stand up and we'll bring them out.

414
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: But like, so that's the quotes, Like in the fact

415
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: that you're just openly saying I advocate civil war in

416
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: relation to this movement is like my goals. My goal

417
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,959
Speaker 1: here is being like people fantasize about Canada as being

418
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Speaker 1: a place to escape, you know, like Canada is like

419
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 1: the other from the States, and like, no, it's the same,

420
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Speaker 1: like we are like where you cannot escape away from fascism.

421
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Speaker 1: There is no really there's no real away at right

422
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: now in terms of there's no safe ground. It can

423
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: spread to where you are and for people living in Canada,

424
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: when you have people on the news on like Global

425
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Speaker 1: News saying I advocate civil war within the context of

426
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: this of this like, um, you know, a convoy movement,

427
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 1: it is, it is an actual thing worth paying attention to.

428
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: It is an actual problem. It's it's huge and earlier

429
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 1: today and I might pronounce his name on but del MANUK,

430
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: doc from CBC Toronto tweeted a story because he on

431
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 1: behalf of CBC contacted an actual organizer of the convoy.

432
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: They have different regional organizers and and their website list

433
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: them all um and it had Patking funny side done,

434
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: It had pack King listed as an organizer while they're

435
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 1: go fund me had a statement saying they had no

436
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: connection to him, which was very funny. But yes, so

437
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: CBC Toronto pack contacted them and the guy responded enough

438
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: lies you quote slave blooded trader, evil will get its

439
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: due in the end. And after a little yeah after yeah,

440
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: after it back, yeah after it, back and forth, very

441
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: brief back and forth. Uh and just like a couple

442
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 1: of questions, uh, the organizer ended with, you know, you

443
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: toe the line for the global corporate coup taking place

444
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 1: under the guys of public health. You can't be that

445
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 1: dumb traders will swing in time. Oh boy, Yeah, I

446
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: do think Americans don't fully understand how much the anti

447
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: vax movement is tied to far right politics with in

448
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: Canada and it's like been like the driving force of

449
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: far right politics for the past two years and it's

450
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: gotten so much larger. Um it is, like it is,

451
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,239
Speaker 1: it is. It is a thing like when when you

452
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: have when you have people on camera saying we want

453
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: to January six, I advocate a civil war, talking about

454
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: not leaving until the government either resigns or mandates are dropped,

455
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: and then threatening physical violence on top of that. Um yeah,

456
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: like it's it is. It is a thing that could

457
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: happen there, and that's kind of why I wanted to

458
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 1: talk about it is like yeah, when I have my

459
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: mother calling me dozens of message just from random people

460
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 1: like worried about this, then yeah, it is an issue, like, um,

461
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not it's not not a thing, No,

462
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: it it is. And the rhetoric is so universal against

463
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: anyone they perceived to be leftist too, that it is

464
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: really dangerous. Like there's been a little bit of talk

465
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: of like counters in Ottawa. Um, when the numbers are

466
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: this big, like there's no safe weight for people to

467
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: to stop that sort of thing, especially when all all

468
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: the vehicles are on that side, Like it's a it's dangerous.

469
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: There's a lot of violent stuff, um even uh, like

470
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 1: I was looking today the People's Party of Canada's they

471
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: got like five percent of votes in our last selection.

472
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: They had a little bit of a scandal during our election,

473
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: which is at the end of last year. UM, where

474
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 1: a writing director for I think it's uh, it's the

475
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: Great Area of London is Elgin, Middlesex, London, so they're

476
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: they're writing directors and not their member of parliament writing

477
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: um was revealed to uh post like sculpt mask Nazi

478
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: memes and memes comparing Bernier, the leader of his own party,

479
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: to Hitler, so like probably not a negative comparison, um.

480
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: And he was not fired for it, but he was

481
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: fired after it came out that he was being charged

482
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: for throwing rocks at our prime minister. Yeah, he actually rely,

483
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: he recently said on a live stream. He was asked

484
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 1: he was currently on trial, and he said, yeah, I

485
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: mean as far as I know, Like he's been posting

486
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: images of like trucks running people over and that's just

487
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: like one connection to h to the legitimacy of it all, um,

488
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 1: like you I mean the plat army guys, the ones

489
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: who talked about driving the truck sixteen feet. They're also

490
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: connected with Bernier. They've had Randy Hillier on their podcast before,

491
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: who's a sitting politician, remember provincial parliament which is kind

492
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: of like our state senate equivalent over here. Um, They've

493
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: they've had him on and like there's some like legitimacy

494
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: to it getting on and when you just talk about

495
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: the broad movement in general. Former um Conservative Party of

496
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: Canada leader Andrew Shear, who had kind of a rocky

497
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: departure from the party because he allegedly his campaign funds

498
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: to pay for his kids private school. So I note

499
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: like he had already signed on and endorsed and been interviewed.

500
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: Erin O'Toole, the current leader of the of the Conservative Party,

501
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: uh just today actually said he was going to engage

502
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: with them. Earlier this evening, Sergeant in Arms Packnents McDonald

503
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: sent an email to our parliamentarians ahead of Saturday's trucker

504
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: convoy protests and quoting Justin Link's twitter here. There have

505
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: been attempts to collect MP's home addresses. As such, the

506
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: Sergeant at arms is advising to avoid the rally and

507
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: go somewhere safe. That apparently wasn't listened to Erin O'Toole,

508
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: who said to do it anyways, and Justin Link tweeted

509
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: later tomorrow, I will be meeting with truckers to announces,

510
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: right after Parliamentary Security warned MPs to avoid the protests entirely.

511
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: So it's not great. Yeah, I mean again, this will

512
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: probably come out after Saturday, So if we don't talk

513
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: about this again, then that means probably it's good. I mean,

514
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: they showed up, they protest, and they kind oficipated if

515
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: we're following this up in a few days with another episode,

516
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: that that be something bad happen. But again, even even

517
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: at this point, it is still worth talking about in

518
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: terms of like the generally like this is like the

519
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: kind of like the net of why this is so

520
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: important for everybody is what you were saying about, Like,

521
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: when you've got this many people, this many trucks coming

522
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: from an outside and moving into a city, there's very

523
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: little that can be done against them. Um, like there's

524
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: not there's not really much of an effect the counter

525
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: other than trying to get another massive people in cars

526
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: to confront them, and that's um, you know, potentially dicey situation.

527
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: So this remains a very powerful tactic. We've seen it

528
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: used all over the United States too, like, and it's

529
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: this idea of like blockading a city. Even though this

530
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: is kind of the earliest step in taking that is

531
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: this is gonna be the last time people try to

532
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: extend to this logic. Yeah, So that's that's kind of

533
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: the surrounding cultural reasons and shifts and rhetoric and like

534
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: applicable nous as like an act of like an act

535
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: of like protest or like like revolt or insurgency whatever

536
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: whatever you want to use. Is there's interesting because like

537
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: a lot of these other interesting thing about the States

538
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: compared to Canada is like the States we have like

539
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: we have like an actual like far right movement, like

540
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: we have like we have like conservatives, when then we

541
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: have like the far right movement in Canada. That that

542
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,719
Speaker 1: distinction is not much of a thing. A lot of

543
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: a lot of there is there is some far right

544
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: figures trying to push stuff for it, absolutely, but a

545
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: lot of like the space in between conservative and far

546
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: right is kind of a little bit more fluid. A

547
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: lot of these people who are showing up are not

548
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: like far right protesters. They are kind of regular conservatives,

549
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: but they're still getting sucked into saying I advocate a

550
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: civil war like that is just a regular conservative dude.

551
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: He's not a member of any kind of political thing.

552
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: He's It's like, it's that is just that is just

553
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: kind of what this culture on the western side of

554
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: Canada really really like a kind of defaults to almost

555
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: when when you start going into this kind of like

556
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: anti Trudeau territory, because that's the their their their main

557
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: their main politics is anti Trudeau. Like that is that

558
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: is what they are. So anything that gets to that

559
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: point is allowed, whether that is conservative or that is

560
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: like more far right, as long as it's anti Trudeau,

561
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: then it's it is a valid politic. And that's another

562
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: distinction in the State that that's a thing in the

563
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: Canada that I don't really see as much in the States.

564
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: It's very familiar to me when you talk about how

565
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: anti Clinton is um fed into Trump is um like

566
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: that that is I think a worthwhile comparison to me,

567
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: because there were a lot of American conservatives who could

568
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: get in bed with anybody if they were staying against

569
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: Hillary or Bill. Um, cool stuff. Well, this is all fun.

570
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: I hope to not talk with you about this again. UM,

571
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: but there is a chance, there is a chance people

572
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: have conversations, um, if you wouldn't want to after af

573
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: this episode airs, if people want to see what happened,

574
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: right because this this air is probably Monday, UM, and

575
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: the convoys set to arrive on Saturday. Where can they

576
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: find work talking about that, whether that be like your

577
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: Twitter feed or um, if you know if any articles

578
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: are planned. Yeah, so I'm planning on live tweeting. UM.

579
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: I can't make any promises because safety is always a

580
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 1: thing and I want to know what it looks like

581
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: until Saturday happens. But I'm planning on live tweeting. My

582
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: twitter is a at spineless L. That's the words by

583
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: Less and then just the letter L. So yeah, you

584
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: can check in on his account to see if he

585
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: has a thread by the time this episodes out. Um,

586
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: And yeah that's how that's how you can kind of

587
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: figure out what happened if you're just listening to this

588
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: now and then in the meantime, there'll be a lot

589
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: of attawa media covering it. If you just want to

590
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: see the fallout, I imagine the Canadian Antia New Work

591
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: might talk about it more. They put an article today

592
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: on it that that covers more of the kind of

593
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: problems that the far right that we talked about today.

594
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: Then the most other media will go into they did. Uh,

595
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: that was a very good article. And then also today

596
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: um I Elon Musk tweeted and support of the Canadian truckers.

597
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: So just in terms of let's just as as a

598
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: good example, I think this situation is a really great

599
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: way to start thinking about politics and culture um and

600
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: how they relate to each other, and how this type

601
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: of thing succeeds, and how it succeeds um and why

602
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: this rhetoric is so successful in bringing in so many

603
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: people in Canada, uh and raising six million dollars almost

604
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: seven million dollars. But anyway, that is that is the show.

605
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: One more plug dance so people know where to find you. Uh.

606
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: I only really am active on Twitter, so again it's

607
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: at spineless LU. The word spineless is then I don't

608
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: have a spine. And then the letter L on Twitter,

609
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: you plug your getter account, You're you're getting Wow. Yeah,

610
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: real Real get her user vibes coming off of Dan

611
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: on social media platform that Joe Rogan looked at and said,

612
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: Robert's just trying to get me to plug my stock

613
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: puppet accounts. Yeah, everyone, this is fucking off. You could

614
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: follow all my sock puppets at Fascist Wizard dot c

615
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: a of anyway, that is uh that that doesn't for

616
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: our show. Thank you for listening, and yeah, convoys, Canada

617
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: can't can't escape? Excellent, Thank you. It's the New Year's again. Whoa, Yeah, welcome,

618
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Year the Tiger. This is a special

619
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: special lunar New Year's edition of It could Happen here,

620
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 1: a podcast that he is today just about well it's

621
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: still about sort of things falling apart and things being rebuilt.

622
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: But I wanted to specifically, you know, do do it

623
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: do it do a special luniar New Year's episode and

624
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: spend some time, I think talking about Chinese nous and

625
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,240
Speaker 1: how what sort of being a part of the Chinese

626
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: diaspora in sort of in the US and Canada is

627
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: like and you know how how that how the influence is,

628
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: how we organize, how what what we're afraid of, what

629
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: we're sort of proud of um and with me to

630
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: talk about this. We have j n who I think

631
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: first time I ever returning guests. Yeah, who is it works?

632
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: With laus On? Hello j n Oh what an honor.

633
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,479
Speaker 1: Thanks thanks for inviting me back. Yeah, thank you for coming.

634
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,919
Speaker 1: And we also have Jane She who is a queer

635
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: Chinese settler living in unseated traditional and ancestral territories and

636
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: the Mosquian Sasquamish and slave with tooth nations in what

637
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: is falsely and fakely considered Canada. Um. She is a poet, writer, editor,

638
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: and an organizer and does many other cool things. Hello Jane, welcome,

639
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me.

640
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: UM just wanted to share that it's musquam, squamish and tooth. Yeah. Sorry,

641
00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 1: I Fortunately I do not live up and so my

642
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: my pronunciations of tribal names are even worse than they

643
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: are for the tribal days that are around me. So

644
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: my apologies. Now. So al right, before we get into

645
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 1: a bunch of extremely grim stuff, I wanted to because

646
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: this is the this if you will be listening to well, okay,

647
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: unless listening to this on Monday night, in which case, uh,

648
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: congratulations on beating time. But most of you're probably gonna

649
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: listen to listening to this on on lunar New Years,

650
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: and so I wanted to before, yeah, before we think

651
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: it's completely dark. I want you to know what you

652
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: choose favorite Chinese New Year's food is, because this is

653
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: like maybe my favorite holiday, and it's basically my favorite

654
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: holiday because in in Grand Chinese tradition, it's just an

655
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: excuse to eat a lot. So yeah, opening the floor up, Yeah,

656
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: I think you're the expert here, Jane, so feel free

657
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: to I am not like to laid down the knowledge.

658
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 1: I am not an expert just because uh I full

659
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: dumplings does not mean I'm an expert. But I mean

660
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: I haven't spent like lunar New Year's with really that

661
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: many other people in a very long time. So my

662
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: sense of like breath of food has really really narrowed

663
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: to what is available to me. Um. And I also

664
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: have been really struggling with the dumplings that I've been

665
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: making because of like carpal tunnel issues. But I've been

666
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: thinking a lot about jellyfish lately, Like I keep thinking

667
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: about jellyfish, and I keep thinking about like the sesame

668
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: anything with sesame in it. Yeah, and like just boil

669
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: dumplings I feel like are really great for me at

670
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: this particular moment. Yeah, my favorite is uh in Cantenese,

671
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: it's called nan go, which is it's really yes um.

672
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: And the way my mom used to make it all

673
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: the time was like dipping it in an egg first, um.

674
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: And so it has this kind of like eggy crust

675
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: on it, which is really really awesome. And I've been

676
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: making up of the past couple of years myself where

677
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: I am and I can't get to go to the

678
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: grocery store and grab some because it's only available around

679
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,439
Speaker 1: this time. I guess they don't really produce it any

680
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: other time. And last time I went to visit my mom,

681
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: she like loaded my suitcase full of them and that

682
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: was able to eat them fast enough, unfortunately, and some

683
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: of them went fast. Oh no, we have we have

684
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: one in our refrigerator. I think it's I think it's

685
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 1: it was in the freezer. It's now I think in

686
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: the refrigerator and all incredibly excited to cut into it

687
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 1: New Year's Yeah, do you do you guys do the

688
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 1: because I know so we don't really have red bean

689
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: ones I know there's like brown sugar ones or something

690
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: that are like plain. Wait, I just wanted to check,

691
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: like is it nanongal Yeah, or at least so like

692
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: the sort of like flower thing that is like shaped

693
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: like a semicircle. Yeah. Wait, yeah, I feel like there's

694
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: different circle. Yeah. We usually cut them into like like

695
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: square strips, but I think that's just like a cooking

696
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: ease of cooking thing. Yeah, and it usually comes up

697
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: like a date or something on top. Yeah, when it's packaged.

698
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: That's so interesting because I feel like the nanal that

699
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: I grew up with doesn't usually have a lot of

700
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: things on it. It's kind of like sticky and kind

701
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: of plain, and I'm just this is this is a

702
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: new thing. Yeah. Yeah. The ones we usually get just

703
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: has red beans in it, and then there's like the

704
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: one day on the top. Oh, I don't know if

705
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: you're thinking of like towning Go, which is like a

706
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: different type of dish um where it's like white rice

707
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: cakes and then you you can like it's like saucy

708
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: and then yeah, like different ingredients in it. Yeah, I

709
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: think it's a different Ours are just that they're like

710
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: they're they're pretty close to the yeah, I think I

711
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: think I'm talking about the just regularly and golic. They're

712
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: just like like they're they're they're they're basically plain, but

713
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: there's some red bean like stirred into the dough and

714
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: then it's just like the flat brown thing that you

715
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: like fry. Yeah, all right, this is we've now done

716
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: dessert chat. I would honest, honestly much much less grim

717
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: time than most of the stuff that happens on here,

718
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: and you have all been now subjected to it. I

719
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: go eat Chinese New Year's food, it's great. Ah. Yeah.

720
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 1: So on two things that are somewhat more grim um.

721
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: I think there's there's two big things I wanted to

722
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 1: talk about that's sort of related to, like, I guess

723
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:30,919
Speaker 1: Chinese diaspora nous um. I guess we can start with

724
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: talking a bit about anti asition violence and police violence,

725
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: because I mean, it's not like so my sort of

726
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 1: into this is that my my someone Okay. So one

727
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: of the things that's happened in the past about two

728
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: years was this the huge sort of spike and anti

729
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: aition violence. But then you know, part of what happens

730
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: politically around that was there was a huge attempts to

731
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: essentially turn antiation violence as you I guess like the

732
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: anti PLM, like especially in the US, but I think

733
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: I think this happened elsewhere too, where there was as

734
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: it didn't I don't know, it worked in some places

735
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: and didn't work in other places. So I went to

736
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: the Research Chicago and a few is a few months

737
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: ago now maybe it's a couple of a month that

738
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:26,240
Speaker 1: you ago, a Asian Chinese international student like got shot

739
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: on campus and this turned into a huge sort of

740
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: like bring more cops on campus. That there was a

741
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: huge petition that got signed that was that people were

742
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: like asking for security cameras and asking for our cops

743
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: and like the u c p D like a couple

744
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: of weeks later just like shot a dude, and so

745
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: that there there's been I've been seeing this tension a lot.

746
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 1: I was wondering if YouTube had also sort of run

747
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: into similar stuff and what your thoughts. We're on it, um.

748
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like, unfortunately with Canada, there's like

749
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: this dynamic where we looked to the States for news

750
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: and validation in this weird way that I find really

751
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: delegitimizes the unique struggles that are here, that are different

752
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: um there are there's a different kind of police system.

753
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: There's like the politcal police like Vancouver Police Apartment UM.

754
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: But then there's also the RCMP, the Royal Mountain Canadian Police,

755
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: which are in other the municipalities. And the RCMP was

756
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: created specifically UM as a tool of settler colonialism to

757
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: enforce the Indian Act, which is UM, I guess the

758
00:43:54,840 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: most succinctly way I can put it as segregation UM

759
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: of Indigenous peoples from settlers. And there's a lot of

760
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: displacement of black communities across Canada. But and there was

761
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: also slavery in Canada, even though we like to pretend

762
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: that there wasn't. And so against this background, I guess

763
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: UM and ongoing like police brutality, whether it's in what's

764
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: atten territories or just the police killing people. There's a

765
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: lot of mainstream Asian Canadian and Chinese Canadian institutions that

766
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: are very very much complicit in the system. Like there

767
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: is an organization, an immigrant Chinese Canadian organization in Vancouver

768
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: who one of the board members is a cop who

769
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: is married to a a city councilor. And a lot

770
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: of the discourse that institutions not people themselves necessarily, but

771
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: institutions create around. For example, the revitalization of Chinatown or

772
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: the preservation of the culture is around Oh, there's graffiti

773
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood Chinatown, and Vancouver is in the downtown

774
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 1: Eyside was just considered UM, the poorest post is considered

775
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: the poorest post a cold in Canada, and it's like

776
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: a tight knit community with a lot of Indigenous people's,

777
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: black people, people in poverty, struggling against the poisoning massacre UM.

778
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: Wherein the government is not providing UM safe supply and

779
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: where the police just kind of like are everywhere pointing

780
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: guns and everyone displacing the tens cities and so when

781
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: there is an easy and not an easy but just

782
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:12,760
Speaker 1: like a demonized group of people that UM, the general

783
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: public doesn't know enough about UM. If you walk through

784
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: the downtowning Side and talk to people, you would talk

785
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: to people about their experiences with residential school, their experiences

786
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: with missing family members, experiences with poverty and in the

787
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: in the broadest terms, it's like the way that try

788
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: and Town is being gentrified. People tend to blame the

789
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: poor UM and there's like this divide and conqueror mentality

790
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: within the Asian diaspora, whin the Chinese diaspora specifically, and

791
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: so similar to what happened with Um Michelle Go. Similar

792
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: to her UM, there was a South Asian elderly woman

793
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: who a group of people who lived in the tensity

794
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: had killed pretending to be cops when they knocked on

795
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 1: her door, and the council, one of the city councilors

796
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 1: UM in Vancouver was like this, we need to stop

797
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: indulging in these tense cities. Um. Meanwhile, there's a lot

798
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: of like marginalized people in these tense cities who who

799
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: who can'ts UM, who need to live there because it's

800
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 1: COVID times, and society has abandoned them. So it's like

801
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: anti Asian racism and violence has also the hate, the

802
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: so called hate crime thing has so apparently increased, UM.

803
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: And I don't think that it's hasn't increased. It's just

804
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: that like the way that the media, the way that

805
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: the institutions within Canada is also jumping onto the police wagon,

806
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: the police the hate crime angle, rather than learn from abolitionists. Rather, Yeah,

807
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: this is a long way I'm putting it. It's like similar,

808
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: it's similar, and I know a lot of details. Yes, yeah,

809
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: I mean I think that, Yeah, I think that tracks.

810
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: I mean the targets are slightly different just based on

811
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: such a snears, but on the sort of local context.

812
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: But I think that, yeah, that tracks a lot with

813
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: what we've been seeing here, as I think there's a

814
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: there's another thing that I don't know, so I I

815
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 1: really don't like the term like because the did the

816
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: Twitter hashtag is stop Asition hate, Like I hate that

817
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: framing of it as sort of hatred and not racism.

818
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: But even the sort of the anti Asian violence framing,

819
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: which I've been used a lot, I think has problems

820
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: because you know, I mean, this is one of the

821
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: things you were talking about, one of the things that

822
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot. It's just you know, any time,

823
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:07,919
Speaker 1: like you know, there are genuine sort of racism attacks, right,

824
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: but then there's also just like I mean, one of

825
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: the sort of scare things that happened here was it

826
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: was like a bunch of people's, like a bunch of

827
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: restat Chinese restaurants got broken into and robbed, and everyone

828
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: was like, well, this is anti Asian violence, and it's like, well, no,

829
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: like this is just theft and and there there's there's

830
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: been this sort of like collapsing of something bad happens

831
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: to an Asian person with specifically sort of like targeted

832
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 1: racist attacks, and I think that's been well, I mean,

833
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: that's been a problem. And there's also the secondary problem

834
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: of you know who even who even gets included in

835
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: this in the first place. Like one of one of

836
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: the biggest things I've been frustrated about is, you know,

837
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: the sort of the selective inclusion of South Asian people,

838
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: like I there there was there was a shooting at

839
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:57,479
Speaker 1: the fed X facility last year by a guy who

840
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 1: was like very much, very far right, kind of like

841
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 1: pilled online guy, and it killed a bunch of Seak workers,

842
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: and there was never there was just nothing, even like

843
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 1: no one talked about his anti Asian violence. But then,

844
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: you know, selectively, you get inclusions to South these Asian

845
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: people when it's like it's it's it's like people get

846
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: folded into being Asian when it's like useful to call

847
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: from war police. But then when it's you know, not

848
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: useful for that, or when it's you know, especially when

849
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 1: it's working class people getting killed, there's just sort of nothing.

850
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: And I've been I don't know. I've been really frustrated

851
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: by this dynamic a lot. Um. Yeah, And Jan, I

852
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: want to know what you think about this too, because

853
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: I have no talks slong enough about Yeah. I mean,

854
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: you know, wasn't there there was a hate crime build

855
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: that was passed in Congress, right, uh, And there was supposedly,

856
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: quote unquote supposed to be addressing all this quote unquote

857
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: anti Asian eight stuff. And you know the only thing

858
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: that accomplished was it created like some some government organ

859
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: to like oversee these efforts to address hate crimes and

860
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: then more funding for the police. Right. So I think

861
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: it was it was a very kind of direct impact.

862
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: We could just see how this discourse transformed into exactly

863
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: what a lot of you know, organizers had said would happen,

864
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,479
Speaker 1: which is more funny for the police and not making

865
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: communities safer. Right. So, Um, I think the real conendrum

866
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: for me, and I think that really kind of you know,

867
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time thinking about this, and

868
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: I get I get kind of frustrated. Is um you know,

869
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: whenever these these attacks happen on you know, Asian heritage

870
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 1: or Asian identified people. Um, the response, I mean, it's

871
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 1: it's a good natured and it's well meaning, and I

872
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: agree with it, but you know, the response is always

873
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: like the telling folks who have been victimized or those

874
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 1: who know them, um, that more police is not the answer, right,

875
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that's true. But then I

876
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 1: think what I'm struggling with is how to make this

877
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 1: message resonate with those folks, right, because I think there's

878
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: a way that in some ways that can alienate them

879
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 1: even more and make them even more reaction right, because

880
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: that's you know, the media has often spun that argument. Uh,

881
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 1: they use further instances of violence to spin that argument

882
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 1: of like when when people say the answer is not

883
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: more cops, it doesn't make it safer, the media is

884
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: able to spend that to say, look, this isn't working, right,

885
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: It's that things are actually getting more dangerous all the

886
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: kind of like scaremongering tactics with crime statistics and all

887
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: that stuff, which are usually false anyway. So I think

888
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: that's what I'm trying to figure out now, is like,

889
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: you know, because in in Chinatown, l A, where you know,

890
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: where I've done some work, there was community meetings with

891
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: c c D, the Chinatown Committee for equitable. Uh, what's

892
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 1: what's the de stand for? I always forget development. Um.

893
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: They had some meetings with community folks to kind of

894
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: like you know, hear what hear what they wanted to

895
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: do to address this, and they kind of like a

896
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: lot of those organizers had, um, you know, they're coming

897
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: from that viewpoint that calling for more cops is not

898
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: the answer, and so some of the mail they're from

899
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: the community, but they're not. They weren't part of the

900
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: kind of like senior population of Chinatown, which is you know,

901
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 1: it's like what incomes seniors is kind of like are

902
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: the folks that are being pushed out and by developers

903
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: and all the gentrification happening as well. Um, some of

904
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 1: some men were kind of like, okay, well we should

905
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: start kind of like arnged neighborhood watch um. And you know,

906
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: I think in some way that taps into this kind

907
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 1: of like we protect us type of ethos, right, It's

908
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 1: it's not relying on a state or government or whatever

909
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: police paramilitary force. UM. But then I think the question

910
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: that some folks had I heard the secondhand, was that, um,

911
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,280
Speaker 1: you know, are are these people actually from the community

912
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 1: and are they actually doing this to address the needs

913
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 1: of the folks who are most affected by it, right,

914
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: And so I think some folks were uncomfortable with the

915
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: idea that there should be these kind of like street patrols, UM.

916
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: And so there's there's just so many different ways to

917
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,359
Speaker 1: approach this, and I haven't you know, I'm not laying

918
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: way or anyone, but I just haven't seen an effective

919
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: way to counteract that call for more police. Yet. That's

920
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 1: a really good point because I feel like in when

921
00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: especially um Asian women, people who experience like various forms

922
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 1: of sexual violence or um street harassment, UM, that sense

923
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: of unsafety is amplified when we witness other people getting

924
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 1: murdered in public spaces. And so I think in a

925
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: way it's like understandable why people want to grasp for

926
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 1: any kind of solution and and also why that kind

927
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: of trauma can be weaponized or like taken advantage of immediately,

928
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: Like just because I'm like, who asked for you to

929
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:51,439
Speaker 1: be street criptials of Chinatown? Who decided that you make

930
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: the communities safer? Have you consulted the seniors? Have you

931
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: have you talked with all of the seniors, all of

932
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: the elders to ask them like how would you feel

933
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: if I did that? Like where is that suggestion coming from?

934
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 1: And I think that like the other argument is that

935
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: like mental health resources is an alternative to policing, even

936
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: though UM, policing and mental health systems are very, very

937
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:31,839
Speaker 1: very connected. UM Edward Wong has an article about that

938
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: in Upping the Antie And I don't know. I just

939
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: think that, like there has to be like a way

940
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 1: to talk about this without invalidating each other's trauma and

941
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: invalidating UM people survival instincts as well, because I feel

942
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: like UM, for years, as someone who's done work in

943
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: the anti violence sector, it's not that I wanted there

944
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 1: to be more police. It's just that like a lot

945
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 1: of survivors might be like, hey, I actually do want

946
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,879
Speaker 1: to use the court system because this person is dangerous.

947
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 1: Like that's like, as somebody supporting a survivor, I can't

948
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: just go up, no, you're wrong, less cops, right, Like

949
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 1: that's that's not a compassionate response. And it's also not

950
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: a compassionate response to go, hey, you're making this like

951
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: all about yourself and you should likely be talking about

952
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: like black and indigenous people like like like that's that's

953
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: also really insensitive. So it's like, I feel like there's

954
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: a way that there there is like a way to

955
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: talk about abolition that really needs to respect every survivor

956
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: or every like communities like trauma. And it's not an

957
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: easy thing because it's not like our communities have had

958
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: a good way to respond to trauma, like we haven't

959
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: really like we're still breaking the cycles of intergenerational trauma. Yeah,

960
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: and I think this this kind of comes back to

961
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: another sort of difficulty of this whole project because you know,

962
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: a lot of the sort of the abolitionist framework is

963
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: about like transitioning things towards community solutions, but like what

964
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: is that you know, like, what does that even mean

965
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: when you're dealing with you know this this is this

966
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 1: is part of the problem with well, okay, you have

967
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:39,919
Speaker 1: armed self defense groups, but you know what happens when

968
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 1: inevitably and this is this is just something that happens

969
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 1: just you know, this is this is this is the

970
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 1: nature of security forces, right is eventually you're going to

971
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: get abuters in it. And it's like, okay, well what

972
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 1: happens then, and what happens when you know, like the

973
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 1: abuses of people inside the community and and this is compounded,

974
00:58:55,080 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: I think by this problem of like what like what

975
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 1: even you know the I think I think there's there's

976
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: there's there's a broader problem of like what Asian nous is,

977
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 1: And there's a broader and this is this is also

978
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 1: sort of localized problem of like what even like is

979
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: the Chinese community at all? Because you're dealing with something

980
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 1: that's incredibly fragmented, You're dealing people speak differ languages, You're

981
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: dealing with people who have been in these places for

982
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, some people have been here for century, some

983
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: people who have been here like two months. And I

984
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: think that makes it really difficult in a lot of

985
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 1: ways to sort of like even even just bring together

986
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: something that could be a community. And I know, I

987
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:44,919
Speaker 1: know what happens, and I know you know, there's there's

988
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: there's lots of different sort of like fragmented communities. But

989
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: but I think it makes this harder because there isn't

990
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: a sort of like ready made thing you can turn

991
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 1: to and go, Okay, well this is how we're going,

992
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: like this is a group of people and this is

993
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 1: the sort of like social sphere, and this is the

994
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: community that we're going to turn into sort of deal

995
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:13,959
Speaker 1: with this stuff. There's just this kind of a bunch

996
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: of amorphous different groups. And then also you have the

997
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 1: problem that like you know, if you're gonna talk about

998
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 1: like political forces, nation communities, like the business associations are

999
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: extremely powerful and you know, we have different objectives and

1000
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: they do, but they're also like extremely well organized in

1001
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: a way that most other sort of like Chinese groups aren't.

1002
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's that's that's been where my

1003
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 1: thinking has been going on this. Yeah, I think, um,

1004
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 1: this there's some residents with what you're saying and the

1005
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: kind of dynamics that you're identifying and what I've kind

1006
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 1: of witnessed and experienced in like Hong Kong asport organizing

1007
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: and which I think, you know, there's a lot of

1008
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 1: overlap with that same type of like small business organization

1009
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: type of thing that usually dominates China towns across North America,

1010
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: which is the case in l A. And actually c

1011
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 1: CD spends a lot of time fighting the small business

1012
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 1: organizations UM because they are very friendly with developers UM

1013
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: and they're usually pro um you know, pro securitization and

1014
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 1: anti for folks and all that kind of stuff. So

1015
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 1: there is that that element right where a lot of

1016
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: the times, you know, you are fighting against people who

1017
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 1: might have to like same heritages for example, UM. And

1018
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: you know, for me personally, that's that's very much the

1019
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 1: case with Hong Kong aspert groups, right because you know,

1020
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: many of them are very conservative, are right wing and

1021
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 1: not only just kind of held personal beliefs, but advocate

1022
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: a lot for these kind of you know, these policies

1023
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,479
Speaker 1: and politicians and all these different things that I really

1024
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 1: can't stand and I'm aligned against um. And you know,

1025
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 1: I think it's a lot of folks want to take

1026
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: the kind of pregnantious root of like we'll work with

1027
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 1: you on things that we where we have points of unity,

1028
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 1: otherwise we don't, Whereas you know, I guess some people

1029
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: see me as as a little bit more rigid in

1030
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 1: the sense that like, I don't want to work with

1031
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: these folks at all, because um, I see them as

1032
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: kind of themselves as as a force that is causing

1033
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: more hard than good, especially if with these Hong Kong

1034
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: aspert groups, the usual mantra is like Hong Kong first,

1035
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: like everything that we do is is serving Hong Kong um,

1036
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 1: and that you in the desper that usually means kind

1037
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 1: of like non partisanship, lobbying, congress, all those different things, UM,

1038
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 1: and then kind of like completely ignoring or being agnostic

1039
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 1: of local and domestic issues. UM to oversimplify a little bit. So,

1040
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's been on my mind a lot.

1041
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 1: I know your question was about Chineseness, but I guess

1042
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: for me that that kind of filters a little bit

1043
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 1: further down to like what is being a Hong Kong. Right.

1044
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: It's really difficult to organize with your specific quote unquote

1045
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 1: ethnic or diaspora community, and the the meaning of diaspora

1046
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 1: is not a cohesive community but people's memories of home. UM.

1047
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 1: It's like a difficult thing to kind of but I

1048
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 1: butt your head against because it's like you have your

1049
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: UM diversity, equity, inclusion framework of organizing, and then you

1050
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: have the every day like what what what these frameworks

1051
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 1: can't simplify, which is the tensions between your communities. Like

1052
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 1: I didn't grow up it experiencing overt racist violence when

1053
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 1: I grew up in Richmond. UM. Richmond is an extremely

1054
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: East Asian and Chinese suburb UM that saw first Um,

1055
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: not first, but just like at some point a wave

1056
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 1: of Hong Kong diaspora because of and then afterwards more

1057
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: like mainlanders UM, and so on the playground, somebody was like,

1058
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 1: are you from Taiwan mainland or or Hong Kong? And

1059
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: that was when I was like seven, And that was

1060
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 1: my introduction to what it means to be in diaspora

1061
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 1: in this particular kind of way, and UM being like

1062
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 1: just right like in that and in that, and and

1063
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: figuring yourself out within that and seeing how there was

1064
01:04:56,640 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 1: just an absence of community me because of how like

1065
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: these different geopolitical experiences have like separated us UM and

1066
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 1: made it more difficult. UM Like when we filter our

1067
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: parents political beliefs onto each other, it's kind of like

1068
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 1: this awkward thing. But but I think that like UM

1069
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 1: in in trying to contend with that in the in

1070
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 1: the present, it's sort of like, um, we have these

1071
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 1: older institutions that other people that that the older generations

1072
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 1: have built. What new things can we build? What things

1073
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 1: can we um? Because I feel like I'm I'm really

1074
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 1: rigid too, I'm like really not great at talking across

1075
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 1: the stile, and when I do, it's not it's not

1076
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 1: really about anything substantive it's like, hey, like, hi, it's

1077
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 1: good to see you know, Like, when you live in

1078
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 1: a place you you don't want to make like make enemies,

1079
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 1: but like, it's it's a really hard thing. Um, and

1080
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 1: it's even more heartbreaking when you find out slowly that

1081
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 1: people are just taking advantage of you, right like and

1082
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's a it's a really difficult

1083
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: thing to organize against when you're like you all hate me,

1084
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 1: great love it. This has been they could Happen Here.

1085
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 1: Join us for part two of this discussion tomorrow. We're

1086
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 1: going to more detail on the state of the left.

1087
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can find us That Happened Here

1088
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: pod on Twitter, Instagram, and check out the Cool Zone

1089
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 1: for other shows that we need. Welcome Day Could Happen

1090
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 1: Here podcasts are recognizes that Lunar New Year's is not,

1091
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 1: in fact just one day, and in that spirit, our

1092
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 1: special New Year's episode is going on for a second day.

1093
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 1: So there's the rest of our conversation with Jane and Jane.

1094
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 1: You know. The other thing I wanted to script touch

1095
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 1: on like this is I think kind of deferenting off

1096
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 1: the topic, but I think is also something that I've

1097
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: been running into a lot, which is that like, you know,

1098
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: you have this kind of like you know, you have

1099
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: this kind of bind, right because on the one hand,

1100
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 1: you're stuck between you know, like a lot a lot

1101
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 1: of the organizing and sort of in Asian communities has

1102
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 1: all of these problems. And then you know, okay, well,

1103
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 1: you know the other thing that's happening is is the

1104
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 1: sort of mainstream American left and the mainstream American left.

1105
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 1: I think the Canadian left has problems similar problems with

1106
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 1: this is that like it's a bunch of just like

1107
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 1: it's a bunch of tankies, it's a bunch of people

1108
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:50,480
Speaker 1: who love the CCP, it's a bunch of just we

1109
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,840
Speaker 1: are genocide deniers and like people who think that every

1110
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:57,280
Speaker 1: Asian person who like doesn't like the government is a

1111
01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: cia psi op. And I don't know. This is something

1112
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:02,920
Speaker 1: that I've like, I mean, I've I ran into a

1113
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 1: lot trying to i mean help people do in Hong Kong.

1114
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 1: Organizing is something I've run into just in like every organize,

1115
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:12,320
Speaker 1: like I've run, I run into this an anarchist spaces

1116
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:17,799
Speaker 1: to like it's it's just I don't know, it feels

1117
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:20,760
Speaker 1: really bad because it's like like you're you're just sort

1118
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 1: of caught between and I guess it's sort of this

1119
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 1: is three way triangulation, right, because on the one hand,

1120
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 1: you have this sort of like you have the local

1121
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 1: dynamics with you know, the sort of the sentence of

1122
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 1: the sort of reactionary small business owners. You have this,

1123
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:41,519
Speaker 1: you know, the Chinese community also being sort of split

1124
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 1: in between like pro and anti CCP factions, both of

1125
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 1: whom have like are absolutely chock full of fanatical right wingers.

1126
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 1: It's like, well, okay, it's like the CCP verse epoch times,

1127
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:55,960
Speaker 1: and it's like I don't want any of them to

1128
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 1: win and then use them out, and you're caught in

1129
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 1: the middle of this sort of they're caught in the

1130
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 1: middle of this sort of I don't know, I think

1131
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 1: it's sort of like a fox geopolitical struggle, but like

1132
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,560
Speaker 1: one of one of the big sort of ideological conflicts

1133
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:14,720
Speaker 1: being between both the CCP in the US sort of

1134
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 1: like using the specter of each other to sort of

1135
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 1: like disturb their basis. And I don't know, I am

1136
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:25,559
Speaker 1: incredibly frustrated by I'm incredibly frustrated by the way that

1137
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:28,920
Speaker 1: these groups have expected like the ant CCP, like the

1138
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 1: pro CCP groups are sort of selectively been using and

1139
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 1: like selectively been using anti Asian violence, as you know,

1140
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:40,599
Speaker 1: they basically making the reguments of the importance of anti

1141
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 1: Asition violence. Is that while this only happens because people

1142
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:45,080
Speaker 1: say many things about the CCP, and if no one

1143
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 1: didn't like the CCP, then there wouldn't be any violence,

1144
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 1: even though like anti Asian violence here predates the existence

1145
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,679
Speaker 1: of a communist party in China by centuries, like we

1146
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 1: we like the we we invaded, we invaded China, like

1147
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 1: how many times? At least twice, maybe three I think

1148
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 1: at least twice and maybe three times, like before there

1149
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:12,760
Speaker 1: was a communist party, And so I don't know. I

1150
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 1: I feel trapped a lot between these dynamics and ways

1151
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 1: that are very frustrating. And yeah, I guess I want

1152
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:23,639
Speaker 1: to open the floor to talk about that. I guess

1153
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:30,439
Speaker 1: I see it as like co optation partly um, but

1154
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 1: I guess I also see it as how power works.

1155
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 1: Like I there's like this local paper and I was

1156
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 1: researching sort of the history of Chinese diaspora organizing locally,

1157
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 1: and there was a spat in the paper between two

1158
01:10:56,160 --> 01:11:02,240
Speaker 1: people who one of whom is from UM, a newer

1159
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 1: Hong Kong diaspora. There was like a whole spat um

1160
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:15,439
Speaker 1: in the paper about his history, and there's the history

1161
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:20,719
Speaker 1: of like those tensions are like written in the community itself,

1162
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: Like it's it's it's not a new thing that people

1163
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 1: argue about what happened on June four. It's not new

1164
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: that people are really mistrustful each other and that there

1165
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:41,840
Speaker 1: are actual like government forces that infiltrate and create a

1166
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:48,120
Speaker 1: like basically deny other people's struggles like UM when that

1167
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:52,840
Speaker 1: the that government is themselves perpetuating it. And I guess

1168
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 1: it just is really hard when fellow organizers that you

1169
01:11:57,200 --> 01:12:01,479
Speaker 1: otherwise really like I want to get along with our

1170
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 1: our like uncritical of the state that has oppressed your family,

1171
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:11,599
Speaker 1: because you're just kind of like you're kind of like, wait,

1172
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 1: so are we have we had a conversation about this,

1173
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 1: Like we clearly haven't talked eno if this is what

1174
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 1: you believe in. And it's just a little bit hard

1175
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 1: because it's like community building is not assuming that we're

1176
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 1: in solidarity. Community building is actually like doing that hard work,

1177
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 1: like what is your community experiencing and what is my

1178
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:39,960
Speaker 1: community experiencing? How are we being like weaponized against each other?

1179
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:46,720
Speaker 1: Like yeah, how are these governments like manipulating like communities?

1180
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:50,639
Speaker 1: But that's like really hard when trust has been probably

1181
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 1: broken like the immediate Yeah, I think you're so right

1182
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,360
Speaker 1: that it's it's really about cauotation and a lot of it,

1183
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 1: like what I've witnessed as really so much about UM.

1184
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:04,400
Speaker 1: And this is like, like you're saying, Jane, this is

1185
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 1: a much older dynamic than you know just the past

1186
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:10,600
Speaker 1: couple of years. Is like, uh, states being able to

1187
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 1: use this kind of home and desper of framework to

1188
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:21,640
Speaker 1: um demand loyalty through like targeting desperate people's guilt UM.

1189
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:24,200
Speaker 1: And so there's so many like guilty desper people I

1190
01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 1: know who are like you know, usually from usually from

1191
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:30,800
Speaker 1: a class perspective, right because they had the their family

1192
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: had the resources to leave or uh they were not

1193
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 1: born in the home country or whatever because of their

1194
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,400
Speaker 1: family background, that type of thing, and they want to

1195
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 1: subsume that by taking this radical you know, anti U

1196
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 1: s anti Canada stands um, which is fine, Like obviously

1197
01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 1: being anti us and anti Canada is a good thing,

1198
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 1: but um, the thing that's really kind of frustrated me

1199
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:57,200
Speaker 1: the most is seeing these kind of like radical folks

1200
01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:02,880
Speaker 1: in North America, especially queer folks who are like they'll

1201
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 1: take the most reactionary positions against women and queer and

1202
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: you know LGBT folks in China, for example, by supporting

1203
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 1: a state that is repressing them. Right. So it's it's

1204
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 1: such cognitive dissonance to me, Like, I don't understand why

1205
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:23,560
Speaker 1: these folks can't see, um that they're kind of perpetuating

1206
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 1: this violence in the service of this kind of overarching

1207
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 1: imperative of not ever saying anything bad about China because

1208
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:35,720
Speaker 1: it will help, it'll it'll bolster the US propaganda war machine,

1209
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 1: which is like, there's absolutely a way that I mean

1210
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 1: that absolutely happens if you do that uh un carefully, right,

1211
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:47,839
Speaker 1: if you just kind of repeat um us media narratives

1212
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But I think there's absolutely a

1213
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:54,640
Speaker 1: way to do both right and um. To me, the

1214
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:58,120
Speaker 1: way to do that is to not um support the

1215
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 1: state discourses that demand loy else from the dask broke,

1216
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:04,080
Speaker 1: but to actually, you know, it's the grassroots thing, right,

1217
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,800
Speaker 1: It's just kind of like we support career folks around

1218
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: the world who are struggling under oppression from their governments

1219
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 1: and that type of thing. Um, and being able to

1220
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:16,400
Speaker 1: very carefully say that with nuance, UM, and to be

1221
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 1: against both at the same time, for example, UM, well

1222
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:23,680
Speaker 1: that's really really difficult, right, um. And people have very

1223
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 1: kind of the triolic reactions when you try and do that. Um.

1224
01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 1: As you know, she set up talk Chris, So I

1225
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 1: don't know this. This is still the contrum for me

1226
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:36,439
Speaker 1: because I tend to take the more rigid stance against

1227
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 1: against these folks, but I know people who are very

1228
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 1: kind of they take a more compassionate stance, which is

1229
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:46,000
Speaker 1: like these these are newly plus politicized youth. Um, they're

1230
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 1: just coming to a lot of these politics and positions. UM.

1231
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 1: And you know, being anti us is better than not

1232
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 1: being anti us, is It's what a lot of folks say,

1233
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,640
Speaker 1: And you know, I agree to a certain extent. But

1234
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:05,280
Speaker 1: then it's also like if they're being miseducated in these histories, UM,

1235
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:07,680
Speaker 1: that's okay to a certain point when you're exploring and

1236
01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:11,680
Speaker 1: discovering these things and becoming radicalized. But you know, like

1237
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 1: Jane said, there's also these kind of material, direct impacts

1238
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:17,720
Speaker 1: that you have on people that you work with, that

1239
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:20,280
Speaker 1: you organized with, that that are your friends or loved ones,

1240
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:24,240
Speaker 1: um that you know. That kind of explanation of like oh,

1241
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 1: they're just learning is like it's insufficient in that kind

1242
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:30,679
Speaker 1: of individual way because you're still hurting people and threatening

1243
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:33,600
Speaker 1: people around you, right, So I think there has to

1244
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 1: be a balance and like being able to steer folks

1245
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:41,320
Speaker 1: in into these like non Stalinist, non statist directions even

1246
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:46,679
Speaker 1: while they're discovering. I hate how we're even having to

1247
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:51,680
Speaker 1: be like steering people into a non sell list perspective.

1248
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:56,479
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I'm not a horny for stalent I

1249
01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 1: like to think that pisces me off about this. It's

1250
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 1: just like like they're not even Illinist, Like this is

1251
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 1: the thing that's frustrating, Like if if, if if they

1252
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:06,839
Speaker 1: were merely twentieth century Stalinists, we wouldn't be having this argument,

1253
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:10,280
Speaker 1: because you know, twenty century Stalinism is like well, yeah, okay,

1254
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:13,960
Speaker 1: like twenty centy Stalinist or anti market economy, and it's

1255
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:16,479
Speaker 1: like no, they've they've somehow found a way to take

1256
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:20,679
Speaker 1: literally the worst aspects of Stalinism and then be like okay,

1257
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:22,840
Speaker 1: but what is what if what is stalinism but also

1258
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:24,880
Speaker 1: capitalism good at the same time. And it's just like,

1259
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:28,760
Speaker 1: how how did you do this? Like how how did

1260
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:33,000
Speaker 1: you come up with an ideology that like I don't know,

1261
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I I think I think also I think

1262
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:40,639
Speaker 1: that's been frustrating to me about this is like it's

1263
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:45,840
Speaker 1: a way of sort of of of it becomes this

1264
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 1: way of channeling you know, you have the diaspora guilt

1265
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 1: in the one hand, that you have just random sort

1266
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 1: of like white leftists sort of white guilt, and it

1267
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:58,720
Speaker 1: becomes this way of like channeling that into this sort

1268
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:01,840
Speaker 1: of follow anti racism where you know, you get you

1269
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:05,800
Speaker 1: get people who are like actual professional like hacks, right

1270
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:09,600
Speaker 1: like Roger Day for example, being like, uh, you know,

1271
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:12,080
Speaker 1: to doing things like wow, if you, if you, if you,

1272
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:13,760
Speaker 1: if you criticize this time you state it all that

1273
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:16,360
Speaker 1: sinophobia and like you're directly leading to people getting killed.

1274
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:20,160
Speaker 1: And it's like, no, that's not how this works. And

1275
01:18:20,479 --> 01:18:26,360
Speaker 1: there's this kind of it's it's it's it's this problem

1276
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 1: of they have this this fundamental inability to see Chinese

1277
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,120
Speaker 1: people as people and not a sort of undifferentiated mass

1278
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:41,000
Speaker 1: that can be sort of rallied behind in ideology, And

1279
01:18:44,200 --> 01:18:53,960
Speaker 1: I don't know that's been I think weird to deal

1280
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:57,559
Speaker 1: with because you know, like yeah, like you you're always

1281
01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:00,320
Speaker 1: just in in the Chinese communities, like you're always just

1282
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:03,000
Speaker 1: you're just gonna have like you know that there's gonna

1283
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 1: be a few people who are just sort of like

1284
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:06,920
Speaker 1: pro CCP right wingers. Right, that's just that's just a

1285
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:13,400
Speaker 1: sort of defelo political position. But there's there's this way

1286
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:20,439
Speaker 1: in which you get this, you know, people adopting I

1287
01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:24,240
Speaker 1: mean just things that like if you said this about

1288
01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:26,400
Speaker 1: any like white American for example, if you if you

1289
01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:28,800
Speaker 1: argued that any like a white American making a thousand

1290
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:31,839
Speaker 1: dollars a year wasn't in poverty, like you just couldn't

1291
01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:35,080
Speaker 1: do it, you like, you know, it's it's it's literally impossible,

1292
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:37,479
Speaker 1: like you you'd be laughing out of the room or

1293
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:39,600
Speaker 1: you know, like you're you would you would you'd be

1294
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:41,599
Speaker 1: like ratioed until the cows come home. But you can

1295
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:44,840
Speaker 1: just but everyone and people just say this constantly, like

1296
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:46,439
Speaker 1: this is just just a thing that was like well,

1297
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 1: if you look at poverty production, it's like, well Chinese

1298
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 1: China's eliminated absolute poverty. It's like, yeah, Okay, they a

1299
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:55,479
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year is outside of this now. And

1300
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 1: I think there's these ways in which it it'd be

1301
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:04,799
Speaker 1: comes hard to intervene in this stuff because like every

1302
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 1: every Asian person, specifically we're Chinese person just becomes a

1303
01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:11,599
Speaker 1: sort of token that like you know, you just sort

1304
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:15,559
Speaker 1: of like throw at each other as just like oh, well, yeah,

1305
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:18,120
Speaker 1: here's the Chinese person who says that the CCP is good.

1306
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:20,200
Speaker 1: It's like, well, here's another Chinese person who says that

1307
01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:25,479
Speaker 1: it's bad. And it's like you never It's like on

1308
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:28,559
Speaker 1: both sides, whether whether the process people realize it or not,

1309
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:30,439
Speaker 1: it's their agencies being sort of stripped by them, and

1310
01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:33,880
Speaker 1: they've they've been turned into this sort of instrumentalized like

1311
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 1: you know in the in the same thing that they're

1312
01:20:36,439 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 1: also doing to us is that they're turning into sort

1313
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:41,439
Speaker 1: of these instruments that you can use to like back

1314
01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:46,439
Speaker 1: your own sort of brought in political agenda. And this,

1315
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:52,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, like this has gotten me to just

1316
01:20:52,160 --> 01:20:54,840
Speaker 1: I I just don't work with these people anymore. Like

1317
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 1: we tried it, it was a disaster. They screwed us over.

1318
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:01,479
Speaker 1: It's oh, I don't know, but but but I think

1319
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:03,960
Speaker 1: that's that's a that's a lonely stance in a lot

1320
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 1: of ways. Like you know, if you take this kind

1321
01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:10,800
Speaker 1: of like hardline position, you're not gonna most people, even

1322
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:13,559
Speaker 1: other people who don't support it, probably won't follow you there.

1323
01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:17,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's weird because I find a lot

1324
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 1: of organizing is really lonely. It's like it's not like

1325
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:30,400
Speaker 1: like I want to boast around being like why aren't

1326
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:35,280
Speaker 1: you all donatings? But that's not that's also guilt, right,

1327
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:39,479
Speaker 1: that's like projecting guilt onto other people, um, and that's

1328
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:42,640
Speaker 1: not an effective tool. And I think that like like

1329
01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:46,679
Speaker 1: so right, and addressing both the white guilt but also

1330
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:51,240
Speaker 1: the diaspora guilt, and also just how frustrating it is

1331
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:55,880
Speaker 1: to organize against the state when it's like two people,

1332
01:21:55,960 --> 01:21:58,719
Speaker 1: like three people doing it in a little group project

1333
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word. But it's sort of like,

1334
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 1: how do we make this sustainable when it's so lonely?

1335
01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:11,760
Speaker 1: And how do we use the resources that are available

1336
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:19,120
Speaker 1: to us two not replicate these systems yet again? And

1337
01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:25,600
Speaker 1: I guess when it comes to the left or progressive

1338
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:31,160
Speaker 1: in Canada, it's like so frustrating because it's like there

1339
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:38,680
Speaker 1: isn't actually a lot of community outreach to like racialized communities.

1340
01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 1: There's no translation. There's a lot of like nonprofit work

1341
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:52,240
Speaker 1: that is frankly very draining and co optive themselves. Um Like,

1342
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:55,160
Speaker 1: it's it's a bunch of social service organizations in a

1343
01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:58,679
Speaker 1: trench code and a bunch of political organizations that don't

1344
01:23:00,360 --> 01:23:03,040
Speaker 1: work together or talk to each other in a trench coat.

1345
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:08,559
Speaker 1: And um so I understand why youth would join like

1346
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:15,200
Speaker 1: leftist like radical organizing, but it it's just really heartbreaking

1347
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:20,840
Speaker 1: when it's you're they end up reading in reading groups

1348
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:25,080
Speaker 1: where they're reading historical or so called historical texts that

1349
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:32,880
Speaker 1: erase your histories. Like it it's just such a like

1350
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:38,759
Speaker 1: like reading is great, like political education is incredible, um

1351
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:43,360
Speaker 1: but I'm like it's hard not to grow resentful. So

1352
01:23:43,439 --> 01:23:47,599
Speaker 1: when the guy at the top is a university educated

1353
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:52,920
Speaker 1: white dude and they're reading texts that literally erase your

1354
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:57,280
Speaker 1: entire family, and it's, um that like yeah, for me,

1355
01:23:57,320 --> 01:24:01,320
Speaker 1: it's like just really personal that way. It's like there

1356
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:06,320
Speaker 1: are people who are suffering in the present and you're

1357
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 1: reading a text by a white sociologist from the eighties,

1358
01:24:11,040 --> 01:24:14,679
Speaker 1: like like not like I'm like, it's not that like

1359
01:24:15,200 --> 01:24:20,160
Speaker 1: I I don't think that we should do that political education.

1360
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:24,600
Speaker 1: It's just that like at a reading group, will you

1361
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:29,840
Speaker 1: listen to me when I call you out? Yeah, I

1362
01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 1: definitely you know, both of you saying that this work

1363
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:36,519
Speaker 1: is really lonely, especially if you take if you stand

1364
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:38,840
Speaker 1: up for yourself, for you you really kind of stand

1365
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:43,160
Speaker 1: by your principles. It's I think that's so true. And um,

1366
01:24:43,200 --> 01:24:44,880
Speaker 1: you know, not to speak for everyone in laws on,

1367
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:49,240
Speaker 1: but just my experience has been like you know, everyone

1368
01:24:49,320 --> 01:24:53,640
Speaker 1: just everyone hates us, like it's you know, we got

1369
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:55,479
Speaker 1: hate from the right, we got hate from the left,

1370
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:59,639
Speaker 1: um and from Hong Kong, asper from Hong Kong locals

1371
01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:02,400
Speaker 1: like it. It's just sometimes it's really hard to see,

1372
01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:06,320
Speaker 1: you know, because we're we're trying to stay true to

1373
01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:10,519
Speaker 1: our principles, but it's hard to see sometimes whether there's

1374
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:13,920
Speaker 1: an impact or whether we're just kind of like in

1375
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:16,040
Speaker 1: a little echo chamber with twenty other people, you know

1376
01:25:16,080 --> 01:25:20,559
Speaker 1: what I mean. And um, it's hard to find that

1377
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:24,960
Speaker 1: balance because I don't want to become more and more

1378
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:27,840
Speaker 1: pragmatists where I'm just like, all right, well you know,

1379
01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:29,800
Speaker 1: I'll work with these people, but I don't agree with

1380
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:32,360
Speaker 1: them on these fundamental issues just on this one campaign

1381
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:35,000
Speaker 1: or whatever happens to be. I don't know. I know

1382
01:25:35,040 --> 01:25:37,439
Speaker 1: that's a part of like building power quote unquote like

1383
01:25:37,439 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 1: that a lot of uh, certain socialist groups like to

1384
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:43,240
Speaker 1: do or they're they're really focused on that kind of thing.

1385
01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 1: But I don't know if it's too much of an

1386
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:49,280
Speaker 1: academic view too, to be like, if you're going to

1387
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:52,840
Speaker 1: do it that way, you're you're you're changing the outcome already,

1388
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:56,040
Speaker 1: right because you're not addressing these kind of fundamental issues

1389
01:25:56,080 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 1: from the start um. And I think that view can

1390
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:03,200
Speaker 1: sometimes lead to like a lot of non starters where

1391
01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:05,040
Speaker 1: you're just like things don't ever get off the ground

1392
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:10,439
Speaker 1: because you insist on whatever fundamental principle that you that

1393
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 1: you want to stick to, uh like anti nationalism for example.

1394
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:19,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, just just kind of reiterating and commiserating with

1395
01:26:19,439 --> 01:26:22,360
Speaker 1: you all on the long laitness of that. People think

1396
01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:26,479
Speaker 1: that like not working in these sort of united different

1397
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:30,040
Speaker 1: things is this like sort of purityological position. But like

1398
01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:35,360
Speaker 1: you know, I mean so when when Occupy Ice was happening, right,

1399
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:38,559
Speaker 1: Occupy Ice wound up being a kind of big friend thing,

1400
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:40,360
Speaker 1: and one of the groups involved with it was was

1401
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:42,680
Speaker 1: the Party for Socialism Liberation, who are this sort of

1402
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 1: like very much sort of like the basic tanking cult.

1403
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:52,040
Speaker 1: Like there's not a lot of other horrible stuff that

1404
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:53,640
Speaker 1: we will talk about at some point, but I mean,

1405
01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:56,160
Speaker 1: one of the things that happens, you know, Occupy ICE

1406
01:26:56,280 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 1: is that they you know, in Philadelphia, they destroy the

1407
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:05,200
Speaker 1: atmant like they convince enough people to just leave and

1408
01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:07,479
Speaker 1: do this completely pointless like march they can do a

1409
01:27:07,479 --> 01:27:09,439
Speaker 1: photo op of like people in front of the Mayor's

1410
01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:11,280
Speaker 1: office and they do it, and they camp collapses because

1411
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 1: suddenly there's not enough people. You know, they don't even

1412
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:14,719
Speaker 1: get a majority of the people, but it doesn't matter

1413
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 1: because they pulled enough people out that you know that

1414
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:20,800
Speaker 1: the camp couldn't be held against the cops anymore. And

1415
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:22,680
Speaker 1: I think that in some senses this is kind of

1416
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:25,840
Speaker 1: microcosm of what they what these people actually do, which

1417
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:27,800
Speaker 1: is that you know that these people will never have

1418
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:31,040
Speaker 1: any actual institutional power, right you know that they're they're

1419
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:33,320
Speaker 1: never going to create their like salentist state or whatever

1420
01:27:33,400 --> 01:27:34,800
Speaker 1: like that, They're never going to get this. They're they're

1421
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:37,559
Speaker 1: never gonna hold any power. What they can do is

1422
01:27:37,720 --> 01:27:39,599
Speaker 1: there are enough of them, they can they can siphon

1423
01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:43,599
Speaker 1: off enough people from actual leftist movements into this sort

1424
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:46,439
Speaker 1: of just like white room pro capitalist stuff that they

1425
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:48,599
Speaker 1: can they can cause Peopen's to collapse. And I mean

1426
01:27:48,600 --> 01:27:50,719
Speaker 1: they've done this. They did a lot of this stream

1427
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:54,880
Speaker 1: the uprising, and there is a lot of them, you know,

1428
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:57,519
Speaker 1: intentionally leading people on pointless marches. There's a lot of

1429
01:27:57,520 --> 01:27:59,080
Speaker 1: cop werting with the police and stuff like that. And

1430
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:04,639
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, it's it's it's like having

1431
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:09,120
Speaker 1: seen that like multiple times, right I I you know,

1432
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:11,800
Speaker 1: I you know, for me, like not working with him

1433
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:16,120
Speaker 1: is an incredibly pragmatic position because we tried it and

1434
01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:20,760
Speaker 1: they blew it up. But it's this problem especially you know,

1435
01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:23,040
Speaker 1: you have people who are radicalized in and it's like,

1436
01:28:23,080 --> 01:28:24,760
Speaker 1: well yeah, I mean, I don't know, like a lot

1437
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:26,880
Speaker 1: of them never saw this stuff, right, don't know who

1438
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:29,559
Speaker 1: these people are, and their first instruction to the left

1439
01:28:29,600 --> 01:28:32,759
Speaker 1: is just like incredibly well financed I like media blitz,

1440
01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 1: and I think that has you know, I think that

1441
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 1: has consequences both for us as sort of like people

1442
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:45,320
Speaker 1: on the left doing like Chinese people on the left

1443
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:47,439
Speaker 1: doing our own desport organizing, and it has consequences for

1444
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:50,120
Speaker 1: the broader left, and like you you can see other

1445
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:54,920
Speaker 1: sort of versions of this right where you know, you

1446
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:56,720
Speaker 1: have a sort of right wing we've been infiltrating left

1447
01:28:56,720 --> 01:28:58,640
Speaker 1: to spaces and destroying them like they're they're like there

1448
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:02,200
Speaker 1: were there was thing do cream Resistance basically blew up

1449
01:29:02,240 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 1: a like an anti lithium protest of the u S

1450
01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:09,479
Speaker 1: by just like going there and just hammering transphobia constantly.

1451
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:13,559
Speaker 1: And so I don't know, I think there's there's this

1452
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:20,120
Speaker 1: sort of dilemma because fundament like they will say a

1453
01:29:20,120 --> 01:29:21,680
Speaker 1: lot of the same things we do, but we have

1454
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:27,920
Speaker 1: fundamentally different goals and that manifests itself at you know,

1455
01:29:28,200 --> 01:29:31,560
Speaker 1: on the level of of of organizing individual campaigns. But

1456
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:35,320
Speaker 1: it's something that's really hard to get people to see.

1457
01:29:36,320 --> 01:29:40,080
Speaker 1: I think we've lost a lot of movements because of it. Yeah,

1458
01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:42,080
Speaker 1: And not to be you know, not to pile on

1459
01:29:42,080 --> 01:29:48,080
Speaker 1: the synicism or anything, but I think I honestly do think, uh,

1460
01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:50,400
Speaker 1: you know, as all those new Cold War stuff brants up,

1461
01:29:50,439 --> 01:29:55,519
Speaker 1: which is like completely independent of what a lot of folks,

1462
01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:59,840
Speaker 1: like grassroots folks are even thinking or advocating. It's all

1463
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:03,720
Speaker 1: is kind of up to the the two uh, you know,

1464
01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:07,280
Speaker 1: Chinese and US governments as they ramp up their own tensions.

1465
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:10,760
Speaker 1: I think it's really going to start, like people are

1466
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:13,920
Speaker 1: going to start these people who are um, you know,

1467
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:17,400
Speaker 1: tankys or whatever, are going to start narrowing our choices

1468
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:21,280
Speaker 1: further and further, right, like, you know, as soon it's

1469
01:30:21,320 --> 01:30:24,200
Speaker 1: going to be an athema to to not you know,

1470
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:27,680
Speaker 1: take the into us position. And that's it, you know

1471
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 1: what I mean. And I think that's really scary to me.

1472
01:30:32,200 --> 01:30:35,720
Speaker 1: I don't I last year, I thought there was still

1473
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:40,080
Speaker 1: room for intervention, but things are closing so quickly. And

1474
01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:43,360
Speaker 1: you know, my personal opinion is that a lot of

1475
01:30:43,400 --> 01:30:46,960
Speaker 1: these kind of bigger groups like No Cold War UM

1476
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:51,360
Speaker 1: and others like Code Pink are are definitely being you know,

1477
01:30:51,360 --> 01:30:54,280
Speaker 1: they have much more funding than a lot of other

1478
01:30:54,320 --> 01:30:59,080
Speaker 1: groups who are boarding more nuanced positions. And so like

1479
01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 1: you're saying, it's just like these media blitz is that

1480
01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:05,320
Speaker 1: these shiny events and all those different things are very

1481
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:08,880
Speaker 1: appealing to newly radicalize folks, right because I think that

1482
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:10,880
Speaker 1: this this is where the power is and this is

1483
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:15,599
Speaker 1: where we can actually make a difference, um and yeah,

1484
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:18,799
Speaker 1: things to meet things look pretty bleak in the near future.

1485
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:23,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it just takes one. Yeah, yeah, I will

1486
01:31:23,080 --> 01:31:25,759
Speaker 1: say I think I think they made one major Sita's mistake,

1487
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:28,120
Speaker 1: which is they tried to do the the push the

1488
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:31,120
Speaker 1: giant like new cold warward China thing at the exact

1489
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:34,080
Speaker 1: moment of the US and Russia were like heating up

1490
01:31:34,080 --> 01:31:36,639
Speaker 1: in actually, and this left them like kind of off

1491
01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:39,200
Speaker 1: balance because they've been for the last two years the

1492
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:41,920
Speaker 1: whole things when the US is going to accelerate tensces

1493
01:31:41,920 --> 01:31:44,479
Speaker 1: with China, usentions with China, and then it turns out

1494
01:31:44,479 --> 01:31:47,600
Speaker 1: that they're not doing that and in fact, like they're

1495
01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:50,200
Speaker 1: gearing up for just more proxy word stuff with Russia,

1496
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:51,759
Speaker 1: which the thing they've been doing for the past decade.

1497
01:31:52,479 --> 01:31:53,960
Speaker 1: So I think, like, I don't know, like I think

1498
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:59,680
Speaker 1: they their problem essentially is that they run into reality

1499
01:31:59,800 --> 01:32:03,040
Speaker 1: and there are certain points at which, like, you know,

1500
01:32:03,160 --> 01:32:08,160
Speaker 1: you you can lie a lot, right, but when when

1501
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:10,360
Speaker 1: when the lie that you're pushing is about what the

1502
01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:12,720
Speaker 1: mainstream media is going to say, and the mainstream if

1503
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:16,679
Speaker 1: you just pivots and it's just completely about something that's

1504
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,559
Speaker 1: entirely unrelated, Like I think I think that hurts, and

1505
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:21,160
Speaker 1: I think the everything that the other problem they have

1506
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:24,639
Speaker 1: that that makes me hopeful is that the way there

1507
01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:28,240
Speaker 1: their base is getting split by just the anti vax grifters,

1508
01:32:28,760 --> 01:32:32,360
Speaker 1: because so many of their media people just you know,

1509
01:32:32,439 --> 01:32:35,519
Speaker 1: are just are just full on drifters, and you know,

1510
01:32:35,560 --> 01:32:37,920
Speaker 1: and you're you're seeing splits right now and gray zone

1511
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:40,840
Speaker 1: about like basically between pro and anti vax factions. And

1512
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:44,639
Speaker 1: I think that also will help us in the long run,

1513
01:32:44,760 --> 01:32:49,639
Speaker 1: because you know, say what you want about most leftists

1514
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:53,479
Speaker 1: and even most tankies, like anti vax is like a

1515
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:55,960
Speaker 1: bit far even for them, and because you know, and

1516
01:32:56,040 --> 01:32:59,479
Speaker 1: the other things like the the it's it's hard to

1517
01:32:59,560 --> 01:33:04,720
Speaker 1: do t vacs without beginning to take positions that just

1518
01:33:05,960 --> 01:33:10,160
Speaker 1: like it's been baked into just sort of anti Chinese

1519
01:33:10,200 --> 01:33:14,080
Speaker 1: racism in so many ways that like you can't really

1520
01:33:14,320 --> 01:33:19,040
Speaker 1: like you know, like you can't simultaneously be pro incredibly

1521
01:33:19,080 --> 01:33:20,920
Speaker 1: CCP and then also be talking about how the US

1522
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:24,080
Speaker 1: is trying to implement social credit, right, you know, these

1523
01:33:24,280 --> 01:33:26,960
Speaker 1: are these these positions are just contradictory, and I think

1524
01:33:28,840 --> 01:33:31,360
Speaker 1: that's something that plays to our advantage and I think

1525
01:33:31,560 --> 01:33:37,639
Speaker 1: is weakening them to some extent because they've they tried

1526
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:39,519
Speaker 1: to have their cake and eat it too, and now

1527
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:42,760
Speaker 1: they're sort of I don't know, they're they're their conspiracy

1528
01:33:43,040 --> 01:33:48,280
Speaker 1: theory base is interfering with their like left base in

1529
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:52,080
Speaker 1: ways I think you're helpful for us. It's just so

1530
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:58,759
Speaker 1: interesting how like the anti vax position is literally rooted

1531
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:05,519
Speaker 1: in races um and ableism like. Um there's an article

1532
01:34:05,560 --> 01:34:09,519
Speaker 1: in The Conversation called the inherent racism of the anti

1533
01:34:09,600 --> 01:34:14,839
Speaker 1: vax movement that has like really good history around white

1534
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:22,120
Speaker 1: settlers being afraid of African medicine um um. And then

1535
01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:27,280
Speaker 1: there there's also just the able ism of assuming that

1536
01:34:27,360 --> 01:34:32,000
Speaker 1: your kid will get autism if you get vaccinated. That

1537
01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:35,440
Speaker 1: was that that's been a huge thing before the pandemic,

1538
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:39,880
Speaker 1: and that was part of how this was effective in

1539
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:46,759
Speaker 1: the first place. And um yeah, and obviously the anti

1540
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:54,559
Speaker 1: Chinese um like uh anti Asian like scapegoating as well.

1541
01:34:55,439 --> 01:35:00,559
Speaker 1: But um, I guess that also ties into just how

1542
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:07,479
Speaker 1: broadly ablest the left is and how like disability justice

1543
01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:11,679
Speaker 1: is not something that a lot of people know about

1544
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:17,600
Speaker 1: um or care about. And it's yeah, I don't know,

1545
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:21,800
Speaker 1: it's a huge problem for me as a disabled person. Yeah,

1546
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:23,720
Speaker 1: I wanted to add really quickly too. I mean, I

1547
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:27,120
Speaker 1: totally agree with you, and you know, I think one

1548
01:35:27,120 --> 01:35:29,920
Speaker 1: of the pernicious things that I've noticed though, is like

1549
01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:34,960
Speaker 1: these kind of big, you know, quote unquote anti imperialist accounts,

1550
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:39,719
Speaker 1: like on Instagram for example. Um, they take this anti

1551
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:44,960
Speaker 1: vax position precisely by saying that it's anti racist to

1552
01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:47,400
Speaker 1: take that position, which is like, it sounds that sounds

1553
01:35:47,439 --> 01:35:50,400
Speaker 1: very count intuitive. It is not that does not reflect reality.

1554
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:56,120
Speaker 1: But they will point to instances of you know, anti

1555
01:35:56,160 --> 01:36:00,920
Speaker 1: black us um US medicine for example, bowl you know,

1556
01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:04,840
Speaker 1: like the Tusky experiments, and then say this is why

1557
01:36:04,840 --> 01:36:07,280
Speaker 1: we shouldn't trust the U. S. Government on any of this, right,

1558
01:36:07,280 --> 01:36:09,599
Speaker 1: because look what they've done in the past. And it's

1559
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:11,840
Speaker 1: like that logic makes a lot of sense in a

1560
01:36:11,840 --> 01:36:15,799
Speaker 1: lot of ways, right, But you know, they obviously ignore

1561
01:36:16,040 --> 01:36:19,759
Speaker 1: the impacts that you know, anti vax UH and COVID

1562
01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:24,320
Speaker 1: has had on you know, black and other POSD populations. Right.

1563
01:36:24,920 --> 01:36:27,840
Speaker 1: So I think I don't know if it's exactly like,

1564
01:36:27,920 --> 01:36:30,760
Speaker 1: I don't know if it is appearing as hypocrisy to

1565
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:33,400
Speaker 1: those people and then their audiences too, right, because I

1566
01:36:33,400 --> 01:36:36,080
Speaker 1: think they're able to spin it in this in this way. Yeah,

1567
01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:38,320
Speaker 1: but I think I think my my my argument here

1568
01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 1: is I don't think those are the same. I don't

1569
01:36:40,120 --> 01:36:42,320
Speaker 1: think those are the same basis, Like, I don't I

1570
01:36:42,360 --> 01:36:49,280
Speaker 1: don't think that the majority of the Tanky base are

1571
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 1: people who are anti factors. And you know that you

1572
01:36:51,640 --> 01:36:53,760
Speaker 1: can see a line of this right of of you know,

1573
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:55,679
Speaker 1: like one of the big things that like they're they're

1574
01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:57,599
Speaker 1: they're obsessed with sort of like with the Cuban health

1575
01:36:57,600 --> 01:37:00,840
Speaker 1: care system, right and like Cuba's Cuba vaccines. You see

1576
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:02,920
Speaker 1: this stuff from them a lot, and you know, and

1577
01:37:02,960 --> 01:37:05,280
Speaker 1: they also talk about like, yeah, like China's doing really

1578
01:37:05,320 --> 01:37:10,040
Speaker 1: well accating COVID, And I don't think those positions are

1579
01:37:10,479 --> 01:37:13,080
Speaker 1: like I don't think those people are the same people

1580
01:37:13,120 --> 01:37:16,000
Speaker 1: who are also turning around and then talking about how

1581
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:20,720
Speaker 1: like you know, talk doing the experiments the vaccines are

1582
01:37:20,720 --> 01:37:25,360
Speaker 1: actually like racism thing. I think I think there's some

1583
01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:28,200
Speaker 1: overlap between them, but but I don't think that those

1584
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:32,559
Speaker 1: basses line up enough for it to you know, not

1585
01:37:32,720 --> 01:37:38,240
Speaker 1: have the effect of just kind of like tearing them apart.

1586
01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:41,400
Speaker 1: As their media people flip into into one of the

1587
01:37:41,439 --> 01:37:43,599
Speaker 1: sort of camps. And I think the other thing like

1588
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, if if you look at what's happening with like,

1589
01:37:47,320 --> 01:37:49,760
Speaker 1: uh like Max Bluemadal right now, is that he's just

1590
01:37:49,840 --> 01:37:53,759
Speaker 1: like full on like like he's just full on touring

1591
01:37:53,960 --> 01:37:57,519
Speaker 1: with like just straight up right wingers to an extent

1592
01:37:57,600 --> 01:38:01,400
Speaker 1: that even like even people being habituated by the sort

1593
01:38:01,400 --> 01:38:04,400
Speaker 1: of like Syria false flags stuff into sort of working

1594
01:38:04,439 --> 01:38:08,679
Speaker 1: with right wingers, Like you can't look at these people

1595
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:12,719
Speaker 1: that you know, there's just these actually just like Republican

1596
01:38:12,760 --> 01:38:16,760
Speaker 1: and operatives and be like, well, okay, we're we're on

1597
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:19,160
Speaker 1: the side of these people and also like support Cuba.

1598
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:21,360
Speaker 1: I just I don't know, I I have I have

1599
01:38:21,439 --> 01:38:25,559
Speaker 1: some faith in these groups being separate and they're being

1600
01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:28,920
Speaker 1: there being a point of cognitive dissonance where the system

1601
01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:34,559
Speaker 1: braced beause I guess I've seen people who have gotten

1602
01:38:34,760 --> 01:38:38,760
Speaker 1: out of tanky is M by having to interact with

1603
01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:42,880
Speaker 1: the actual CCP, and and that that that that gives

1604
01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:45,040
Speaker 1: me hope that there's there, there's there's a point of

1605
01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:50,400
Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance at which it falls apart. And I don't know,

1606
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:54,040
Speaker 1: maybe maybe I'm just sort of like hope am in here,

1607
01:38:54,120 --> 01:39:00,679
Speaker 1: But I feel like it's so interesting how like there

1608
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:03,240
Speaker 1: are a lot of people for whom politics is a

1609
01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:08,880
Speaker 1: parlor game and not their every day like lived experience,

1610
01:39:09,000 --> 01:39:12,880
Speaker 1: Like I would not be so like like if I

1611
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:17,679
Speaker 1: see my communities struggling, um, and when people are dying

1612
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:23,080
Speaker 1: or people are really like struggling with intragenerational trauma, I'm

1613
01:39:23,120 --> 01:39:29,360
Speaker 1: not gonna sit here and pontificate and theorize about like, um,

1614
01:39:29,560 --> 01:39:34,599
Speaker 1: things that don't impact my communities. Um. And yeah, Like

1615
01:39:34,640 --> 01:39:40,120
Speaker 1: the angle about classes so important here because it's like

1616
01:39:41,040 --> 01:39:47,479
Speaker 1: a lot of people can't insulate themselves from like the

1617
01:39:47,520 --> 01:39:52,040
Speaker 1: broader communities around them. Like if you're going around saying

1618
01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:55,880
Speaker 1: untruths in the media and your communities are like, hey,

1619
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:58,960
Speaker 1: that that makes no sense, Like, um, if you're actually

1620
01:39:59,000 --> 01:40:03,400
Speaker 1: connected to both, like like you would hopefully unless you're

1621
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:07,479
Speaker 1: just a big asshole, um, you would hopefully take some

1622
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:13,120
Speaker 1: accountability for what you're saying. Um. And yeah, I just

1623
01:40:13,479 --> 01:40:16,200
Speaker 1: I just worry because this pandemic has also like really

1624
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:21,360
Speaker 1: isolated people, like they people are not like talking to

1625
01:40:21,400 --> 01:40:25,160
Speaker 1: each other, and that makes it more easy for people

1626
01:40:25,200 --> 01:40:27,840
Speaker 1: to to be like, oh, I'm I'm just right, like

1627
01:40:27,920 --> 01:40:31,479
Speaker 1: this is my perspective, and I just yeah, I think

1628
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:36,160
Speaker 1: about that the conditions in which we come to certain conclusions,

1629
01:40:36,200 --> 01:40:39,560
Speaker 1: like the conditions under which we become more vulnerable to

1630
01:40:39,720 --> 01:40:45,839
Speaker 1: culti type things or like oversimplified like understandings of history.

1631
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:50,680
Speaker 1: Because like, I feel like the the anti vax uh

1632
01:40:50,960 --> 01:40:56,120
Speaker 1: like not taking the vaccine being uh anti racist is

1633
01:40:56,120 --> 01:41:05,320
Speaker 1: a very like manipulative like argument because it ignores the

1634
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:09,800
Speaker 1: fact that these experiments um on black and indigenous people

1635
01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:15,200
Speaker 1: in North America and beyond, or like about neglect and

1636
01:41:15,240 --> 01:41:21,640
Speaker 1: are about um deliberately deliberate ongoing genocide and how like

1637
01:41:21,720 --> 01:41:26,680
Speaker 1: it's completely understandable for for people to not trust the government.

1638
01:41:27,080 --> 01:41:32,519
Speaker 1: But but like when the vaccine is actually a tool

1639
01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:37,000
Speaker 1: of protecting people, Like, there's not a lot of like

1640
01:41:37,160 --> 01:41:42,840
Speaker 1: campaigns other than people who are uh rooted in disability

1641
01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:46,519
Speaker 1: justice saying, hey, vaccines are like here to protect us,

1642
01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:49,880
Speaker 1: and how can we make how can we make like

1643
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:54,280
Speaker 1: a like, how can we resist the medical industrial complex

1644
01:41:54,479 --> 01:41:58,240
Speaker 1: enough such that we can make people feel safer taking

1645
01:41:58,280 --> 01:42:02,120
Speaker 1: them at vaccine? How can we bring people in as

1646
01:42:02,160 --> 01:42:08,440
Speaker 1: opposed to fearmongering? Because I think that fear is so powerful.

1647
01:42:08,479 --> 01:42:11,960
Speaker 1: It's like, once you're afraid, you're you're not gonna You're

1648
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:15,719
Speaker 1: not going to even look into the research, right, So

1649
01:42:15,880 --> 01:42:18,519
Speaker 1: I don't know. For me, I just think of all

1650
01:42:18,600 --> 01:42:21,800
Speaker 1: of this as like manipulation and human psychology on a

1651
01:42:22,160 --> 01:42:27,800
Speaker 1: on a like broad social basis, because it's like the

1652
01:42:28,120 --> 01:42:30,680
Speaker 1: stage is a big cult and these little groups are

1653
01:42:30,760 --> 01:42:36,800
Speaker 1: little cults. Yeah, do you have any other things you

1654
01:42:36,800 --> 01:42:42,400
Speaker 1: want to say before we head out? Happy new here? Yeah,

1655
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:47,240
Speaker 1: you're the Tiger. I'm looking forward to retweeting art like

1656
01:42:47,680 --> 01:42:53,240
Speaker 1: actually Obruary not January one. Yeah, yeah, we should, I

1657
01:42:53,280 --> 01:42:58,000
Speaker 1: think my okay, okay, closing less depressing question. Yeah what

1658
01:42:58,000 --> 01:43:01,560
Speaker 1: what what do you think is the etiquette I'm retweeting?

1659
01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:04,680
Speaker 1: I like you every retweeting like you're the Tiger art

1660
01:43:04,840 --> 01:43:12,439
Speaker 1: before the actually before like Lunar New Year's. I've been

1661
01:43:12,479 --> 01:43:14,559
Speaker 1: torn on it because I just I like the art,

1662
01:43:14,640 --> 01:43:19,280
Speaker 1: but also I'm like, it's not the years yet, I

1663
01:43:19,320 --> 01:43:25,480
Speaker 1: haven't seen any I guess. I guess I'm lucky. I

1664
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 1: have been either guilty or just not guilty, depending on

1665
01:43:31,120 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 1: how you see it. Like I have retweeted all of

1666
01:43:34,200 --> 01:43:38,200
Speaker 1: the tiger art on January first because I did not care.

1667
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:42,599
Speaker 1: I wanted to see the tigers, um. But I hope

1668
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:45,400
Speaker 1: that I see more tigers like in the coming days,

1669
01:43:45,479 --> 01:43:48,519
Speaker 1: because if the tigers aren't coming or if we aren't

1670
01:43:48,520 --> 01:43:53,040
Speaker 1: retweeting it, that that is an issue. Like there needs

1671
01:43:53,040 --> 01:43:55,439
Speaker 1: to be like a second like a like a like

1672
01:43:55,479 --> 01:43:58,320
Speaker 1: a like like a like a second wave of the

1673
01:43:58,360 --> 01:44:06,759
Speaker 1: tiger art sure to all of the artists. Well alright,

1674
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:10,200
Speaker 1: So if if people want to find you or work

1675
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:13,080
Speaker 1: that you have that you want people to find where

1676
01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:15,200
Speaker 1: where where can they do that? Or if you also

1677
01:44:15,280 --> 01:44:17,080
Speaker 1: do not want them to find you, that is completely

1678
01:44:17,080 --> 01:44:21,639
Speaker 1: also valid. The Internet is terrible and a mistake. Yeah,

1679
01:44:21,680 --> 01:44:26,080
Speaker 1: I mostly and do not perceive me mode um completely valid.

1680
01:44:27,360 --> 01:44:29,519
Speaker 1: If you want to check out a low song stuff

1681
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:33,439
Speaker 1: feel free Low song collective dot com, it's good work.

1682
01:44:34,320 --> 01:44:41,320
Speaker 1: My social media is um keipakal poetry um on Instagram.

1683
01:44:41,680 --> 01:44:48,799
Speaker 1: I uh um. I have this graphic that I've turned

1684
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:56,320
Speaker 1: into a sticker and it's raises funds for families who

1685
01:44:56,400 --> 01:45:00,160
Speaker 1: were affected by the fires and floods. Um. It's a

1686
01:45:00,240 --> 01:45:05,560
Speaker 1: sticker that says, immunocompromise people are worth protecting and it

1687
01:45:05,960 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 1: went viral multiple times. So I guess I cannot help

1688
01:45:10,000 --> 01:45:16,960
Speaker 1: but be perceived objections. So yeah, I don't know, Yeah, petreat, Yeah,

1689
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:18,800
Speaker 1: this this is what happens when you create things that

1690
01:45:18,840 --> 01:45:23,640
Speaker 1: are both incredibly politically powerful and also gorgeous. So yeah,

1691
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:28,320
Speaker 1: be be be cursed with the reward for good work,

1692
01:45:28,720 --> 01:45:36,800
Speaker 1: which is also being perceived. Yeah. Yeah, well you can

1693
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:39,439
Speaker 1: you can find you can find us at Happened here

1694
01:45:39,479 --> 01:45:42,479
Speaker 1: pod on Twitter and Instagram. There's the cool zone. You

1695
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:46,040
Speaker 1: can find it. Yeah, go go, go, go retweet Tiger Art,

1696
01:45:46,760 --> 01:45:51,040
Speaker 1: I go throw a brick at your sheriff non actionable

1697
01:45:51,720 --> 01:46:00,360
Speaker 1: and yeah, destroyed the American and Chinese States. Happy two years? Yeah,

1698
01:46:08,520 --> 01:46:12,960
Speaker 1: it could happen. Here is the podcast that This is

1699
01:46:13,160 --> 01:46:16,080
Speaker 1: about things falling apart and how to, how to, how

1700
01:46:16,120 --> 01:46:20,599
Speaker 1: to maybe unfollowing apart. I'm Robert Evans. Your your your host,

1701
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:25,160
Speaker 1: and your other hosts are Christopher and Garrison and our

1702
01:46:25,200 --> 01:46:30,680
Speaker 1: producers Sophie. How's everybody doing today? Great? How's every how's

1703
01:46:30,720 --> 01:46:37,960
Speaker 1: everybody feel about war? Oh? Yeah? Now, if you were

1704
01:46:38,000 --> 01:46:40,559
Speaker 1: to get us, based on your knowledge of history, what

1705
01:46:40,680 --> 01:46:43,519
Speaker 1: generation of war we're in right now? What would you? What?

1706
01:46:43,720 --> 01:46:50,320
Speaker 1: What would y'all guess? I feel like war isn't it's

1707
01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:53,600
Speaker 1: it's it's newer in relation to like human beings, like

1708
01:46:53,640 --> 01:46:57,519
Speaker 1: the idea of war. I'm guessing like there's been like battles,

1709
01:46:57,520 --> 01:46:59,400
Speaker 1: but like the idea of like war, I feel like

1710
01:47:00,280 --> 01:47:03,960
Speaker 1: isn't super old compared to how long there's been humans

1711
01:47:03,960 --> 01:47:08,080
Speaker 1: walking around, So I don't know this is maybe I mean,

1712
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:11,080
Speaker 1: I know the answer, but like it's it's like I

1713
01:47:11,080 --> 01:47:14,000
Speaker 1: don't like that's that's definitely we definitely passed through like

1714
01:47:14,000 --> 01:47:16,360
Speaker 1: at least a couple of stages, and we're at least

1715
01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:20,400
Speaker 1: a couple Chris, like gotta be at least twelve twelve.

1716
01:47:20,840 --> 01:47:23,679
Speaker 1: At least twelve you were way ahead of William s Lynd,

1717
01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:25,960
Speaker 1: who spoilers is the guy who came up with the

1718
01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:28,839
Speaker 1: concept of fourth generation war, which is what this episode

1719
01:47:28,880 --> 01:47:31,080
Speaker 1: is about. Right. One of the things when we talk

1720
01:47:31,160 --> 01:47:36,479
Speaker 1: about things falling apart is um the unsettling growth of

1721
01:47:36,520 --> 01:47:40,479
Speaker 1: a number of different hybrid conflicts, Ukraine being the most

1722
01:47:41,320 --> 01:47:45,559
Speaker 1: like blatant modern example, Syria being the deadliest example in

1723
01:47:45,560 --> 01:47:48,840
Speaker 1: our lifetimes, but like these weird hybrid conflicts that are

1724
01:47:48,840 --> 01:47:51,800
Speaker 1: a mix of shit happening on the Internet and like

1725
01:47:51,880 --> 01:47:54,240
Speaker 1: disinformation going out all over the world. You could even

1726
01:47:54,280 --> 01:47:56,760
Speaker 1: think to like what was happening in Bolivia a year

1727
01:47:56,840 --> 01:47:59,040
Speaker 1: or so back, and like all those weird accounts that

1728
01:47:59,080 --> 01:48:02,160
Speaker 1: were like based around Langley, Virginia claiming to support the

1729
01:48:02,200 --> 01:48:05,120
Speaker 1: military coup. And you can look at like from the

1730
01:48:05,160 --> 01:48:07,719
Speaker 1: same this disinformation brought out by like the Russian state

1731
01:48:07,800 --> 01:48:10,400
Speaker 1: that is usually as part of like a conflict either

1732
01:48:10,760 --> 01:48:13,960
Speaker 1: you know, they have disinfo operations and Syria disinfo operations

1733
01:48:14,000 --> 01:48:17,800
Speaker 1: around the conflict in Ukraine that are kind of designed

1734
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:22,120
Speaker 1: to muddy the issues and to detract international support and

1735
01:48:22,200 --> 01:48:25,080
Speaker 1: also to like drum up support within for like in

1736
01:48:25,120 --> 01:48:26,960
Speaker 1: the in the case of Ukraine, you had like this

1737
01:48:27,120 --> 01:48:30,519
Speaker 1: media blitz against the legitimacy of the Ukrainian state in

1738
01:48:30,600 --> 01:48:34,880
Speaker 1: favor of like a more UH like traditionally Russian um

1739
01:48:35,200 --> 01:48:37,600
Speaker 1: UH style of government in the East, and like that

1740
01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:40,000
Speaker 1: led to this breakaway republic that was supported by the

1741
01:48:40,040 --> 01:48:42,880
Speaker 1: Russian government. And like so these are like hybrid conflicts,

1742
01:48:42,960 --> 01:48:46,160
Speaker 1: is kind of how these are referred to. And there's

1743
01:48:46,200 --> 01:48:49,800
Speaker 1: a guy named William S. Lynd who in nineteen eighty

1744
01:48:49,920 --> 01:48:54,720
Speaker 1: nine wrote a book with a couple of US military analysts,

1745
01:48:54,720 --> 01:48:56,640
Speaker 1: Like he was an analyst for the military. He was

1746
01:48:56,680 --> 01:48:58,719
Speaker 1: not serving in the military. The other guys he wrote

1747
01:48:58,760 --> 01:49:01,960
Speaker 1: this this thing with we're serving at the time, and

1748
01:49:02,000 --> 01:49:04,680
Speaker 1: they wrote this this book kind of trying to be

1749
01:49:04,880 --> 01:49:07,960
Speaker 1: basically what Lynde was doing. He was very influenced by

1750
01:49:08,040 --> 01:49:10,640
Speaker 1: our loss in Vietnam when I say, are here, like

1751
01:49:10,680 --> 01:49:15,080
Speaker 1: the loss of the American state in Vietnam, and he

1752
01:49:15,160 --> 01:49:18,040
Speaker 1: was trying to determine, like number one, kind of like

1753
01:49:18,040 --> 01:49:20,360
Speaker 1: find a way to codify and explain the changes that

1754
01:49:20,400 --> 01:49:22,839
Speaker 1: were happening to warfare in this period. Was also influenced

1755
01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:25,120
Speaker 1: about what was happening in Afghanistan with the Russians were

1756
01:49:25,160 --> 01:49:28,320
Speaker 1: experiencing UM and find a way to like move forward

1757
01:49:28,320 --> 01:49:30,920
Speaker 1: and allow the United States to win wars again, right,

1758
01:49:30,960 --> 01:49:34,680
Speaker 1: Like that was William S. Lynd's goal UM, And so

1759
01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:37,120
Speaker 1: he came up with this concept of four or he

1760
01:49:37,160 --> 01:49:38,639
Speaker 1: and some other guys came up with what they called

1761
01:49:38,680 --> 01:49:43,240
Speaker 1: fourth generation warfare UM, and first generation warfare is like

1762
01:49:43,560 --> 01:49:46,479
Speaker 1: Napoleonic Arab warfare. So like as Garrison was saying, he

1763
01:49:46,560 --> 01:49:50,479
Speaker 1: may note that he kind of starts his pretty that's

1764
01:49:50,520 --> 01:49:56,160
Speaker 1: pretty late we had. Yeah, that's this's a lot of

1765
01:49:56,160 --> 01:49:58,680
Speaker 1: stuff that leads up to like, yeah, if I was

1766
01:49:58,720 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 1: going to try to categorize front types of warfare, that

1767
01:50:01,400 --> 01:50:03,280
Speaker 1: would not be the one I start with. Well, and

1768
01:50:03,600 --> 01:50:05,519
Speaker 1: like the reality of course, as we'll talk about like

1769
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:07,639
Speaker 1: when you start looking at different kinds of warfares, there's

1770
01:50:07,680 --> 01:50:10,360
Speaker 1: wars that look remarkably like the ship going on in

1771
01:50:10,400 --> 01:50:13,760
Speaker 1: Afghanistan and Ukraine that are occurring like several thousand years ago,

1772
01:50:14,360 --> 01:50:18,600
Speaker 1: um like like like in the same places to like

1773
01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:20,559
Speaker 1: it's just like if you wanted to if you wanted

1774
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:23,040
Speaker 1: to talk about like kind of the modern style of

1775
01:50:23,040 --> 01:50:24,920
Speaker 1: wars that we saw on that we've seen really in

1776
01:50:24,920 --> 01:50:27,360
Speaker 1: the last like hundred and fifty years. They're not all

1777
01:50:27,400 --> 01:50:29,080
Speaker 1: that dissimilar in a lot of ways from like the

1778
01:50:29,160 --> 01:50:31,599
Speaker 1: kind of conflicts you saw between Rome and Carthage um,

1779
01:50:31,640 --> 01:50:35,280
Speaker 1: which are these really like big nation states style conflicts

1780
01:50:35,280 --> 01:50:37,840
Speaker 1: and and have a lot of similarities. But but William S.

1781
01:50:37,920 --> 01:50:40,519
Speaker 1: Lynn described the first generation of warfare is beginning after

1782
01:50:40,520 --> 01:50:43,280
Speaker 1: the Peace of Westphalia in sixty eight that ended the

1783
01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:45,879
Speaker 1: Thirty Years War UM. And it's the kind of warfare

1784
01:50:45,880 --> 01:50:48,280
Speaker 1: where you have these like big, tightly ordered groups of

1785
01:50:48,280 --> 01:50:51,640
Speaker 1: men marching towards each other and like firing very inaccurate

1786
01:50:51,680 --> 01:50:54,920
Speaker 1: weapons and mass together. Right. Uh. This is ended by

1787
01:50:55,000 --> 01:50:58,040
Speaker 1: the era of the machine gun and the semi automatic

1788
01:50:58,120 --> 01:51:00,479
Speaker 1: rifle UM or on the bolt rat can rifle. I

1789
01:51:00,479 --> 01:51:03,160
Speaker 1: should say that leads us to second generation warfare, which

1790
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:06,120
Speaker 1: is linear fire and movement with heavy reliance on indirect fires.

1791
01:51:06,240 --> 01:51:08,640
Speaker 1: That's still huge groups of guys charging, but they're not

1792
01:51:08,720 --> 01:51:11,960
Speaker 1: marching in close order, they're not like firing in volleys um,

1793
01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:15,200
Speaker 1: and they're supported by heavy artillery like World War one

1794
01:51:15,280 --> 01:51:18,120
Speaker 1: kind of ship right um. Really we start to see

1795
01:51:18,120 --> 01:51:20,160
Speaker 1: this in eighteen seventy and then World War One is

1796
01:51:20,240 --> 01:51:22,280
Speaker 1: kind of the height of this kind of warfare, and

1797
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:25,320
Speaker 1: over the course of World War One were merge in again.

1798
01:51:25,320 --> 01:51:28,200
Speaker 1: This is William S. Len's way, we merge from second

1799
01:51:28,240 --> 01:51:31,080
Speaker 1: generation to third generation warfare, which is where you've got

1800
01:51:31,560 --> 01:51:35,240
Speaker 1: infiltration tactics to bypass enemy defensive lines and collapse it,

1801
01:51:35,280 --> 01:51:38,000
Speaker 1: which is kind of the Germans and their altrugs tactic

1802
01:51:38,080 --> 01:51:41,599
Speaker 1: and stormtrooper tactics are really kind of pioneering that you've

1803
01:51:41,600 --> 01:51:44,120
Speaker 1: got the idea of defense in depth um, and so

1804
01:51:44,200 --> 01:51:46,639
Speaker 1: this need to bypass the enemy and like this leads

1805
01:51:46,640 --> 01:51:49,720
Speaker 1: to blitzkrieg and leads to all sorts of ship um

1806
01:51:49,880 --> 01:51:53,160
Speaker 1: and then that kind of starts to collapse and Len's

1807
01:51:53,280 --> 01:51:57,080
Speaker 1: estimation around Vietnam and you get what's called fourth generation warfare.

1808
01:51:57,640 --> 01:52:00,000
Speaker 1: Fourth generation I'm actually just going to read a quote

1809
01:52:00,040 --> 01:52:03,120
Speaker 1: from a military history wiki that I thought had a

1810
01:52:03,120 --> 01:52:06,719
Speaker 1: pretty good description of all of this. Fourth generation warfare

1811
01:52:06,760 --> 01:52:10,040
Speaker 1: is normally characterized by a violent non state actor fighting

1812
01:52:10,040 --> 01:52:12,400
Speaker 1: a state. This fighting can be physically done, such as

1813
01:52:12,400 --> 01:52:15,679
Speaker 1: by modern examples Hezblah or the liberation Tigers of Tamil

1814
01:52:15,720 --> 01:52:19,200
Speaker 1: illam Um. In this realm, the v N essay, these

1815
01:52:19,280 --> 01:52:22,360
Speaker 1: violent nonstate actors use all three levels of fourth generation warfare.

1816
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:25,280
Speaker 1: These are the physical actual combat, which is considered the

1817
01:52:25,360 --> 01:52:29,000
Speaker 1: least important, mental the will to fight, belief in victory, etcetera.

1818
01:52:29,080 --> 01:52:31,479
Speaker 1: And the moral, which is the most important. LYND says

1819
01:52:31,520 --> 01:52:36,360
Speaker 1: and includes cultural norms, etcetera. Um, So obviously I think

1820
01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:39,439
Speaker 1: that this is kind of nonsense. There's a lot of people,

1821
01:52:39,720 --> 01:52:41,920
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of folks, the people who buy

1822
01:52:41,920 --> 01:52:43,680
Speaker 1: into this, and it's very popular on the right. Well,

1823
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:45,479
Speaker 1: we'll look at like what's happening in Ukraine. It's a

1824
01:52:45,520 --> 01:52:48,080
Speaker 1: perfect example of fourth generation warfare because you have Russia

1825
01:52:48,400 --> 01:52:50,800
Speaker 1: flooding the zone using spot Nick and a bunch of

1826
01:52:50,800 --> 01:52:55,120
Speaker 1: other kind of media organizations to drum up um discord

1827
01:52:55,240 --> 01:52:58,280
Speaker 1: and like anger between East and West and Ukraine and

1828
01:52:58,360 --> 01:53:00,760
Speaker 1: support for potential Russian action at the same time as

1829
01:53:00,800 --> 01:53:03,640
Speaker 1: you have them backing this dictator um, and then you

1830
01:53:03,680 --> 01:53:06,880
Speaker 1: have like the West sort of supporting the people protesting

1831
01:53:06,920 --> 01:53:09,760
Speaker 1: against those dictators, and like so you've got like this

1832
01:53:09,760 --> 01:53:13,760
Speaker 1: this digital conflict, this information conflict that eventually leads to

1833
01:53:13,800 --> 01:53:16,040
Speaker 1: fighting on the ground. One of the areas in which

1834
01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:19,280
Speaker 1: I think Lynda is really off is talking about like

1835
01:53:19,320 --> 01:53:21,960
Speaker 1: the physical as the least important, especially if you're going

1836
01:53:22,000 --> 01:53:24,719
Speaker 1: to consider Ukraine an example of fourth generation warfare, because

1837
01:53:24,840 --> 01:53:29,040
Speaker 1: if the Russian military had not intervened, there would not

1838
01:53:29,120 --> 01:53:31,840
Speaker 1: still be a conflict in Ukraine, the separatists would not

1839
01:53:31,920 --> 01:53:33,960
Speaker 1: still hold land, and in fact, the separatists were on

1840
01:53:34,000 --> 01:53:36,559
Speaker 1: the edge of getting completely wiped out by the Ukrainian

1841
01:53:36,600 --> 01:53:39,240
Speaker 1: military because they were a bunch of nonstate actors with

1842
01:53:39,280 --> 01:53:42,200
Speaker 1: minimal support and minimal weaponry before the Russians moved in

1843
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:45,360
Speaker 1: brigades of active duty combat troops and armor um, including

1844
01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:47,840
Speaker 1: like gigantic fucking missile launchers which they used to shoot

1845
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:51,200
Speaker 1: down that Malaysian airlines flight like that. It's it's just

1846
01:53:51,320 --> 01:53:54,320
Speaker 1: not I I don't think that that. What what Linda

1847
01:53:54,400 --> 01:53:59,040
Speaker 1: is saying is very um very well describes what's actually

1848
01:53:59,080 --> 01:54:01,040
Speaker 1: going on in the world. But it is important to

1849
01:54:01,120 --> 01:54:05,280
Speaker 1: understand the concept of fourth generation warfare and fifth generation warfare,

1850
01:54:05,280 --> 01:54:08,080
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about in a bit um, because it

1851
01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:11,840
Speaker 1: is so useful in the way in which particularly guys

1852
01:54:11,880 --> 01:54:15,120
Speaker 1: like Steve bannon Um conceive of conflict, because that you

1853
01:54:15,320 --> 01:54:17,880
Speaker 1: will hear the term fourth generation warfare constantly, and it's

1854
01:54:17,880 --> 01:54:21,800
Speaker 1: also something that has used a lot within our military establishment.

1855
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:23,519
Speaker 1: Now a lot of people hate it, and within you

1856
01:54:23,520 --> 01:54:26,600
Speaker 1: can fight a lot of papers buy dudes writing like

1857
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:29,240
Speaker 1: analysts who are working for the Defense Department for the

1858
01:54:29,320 --> 01:54:32,320
Speaker 1: army actively like shipping on Lynd and talking about how

1859
01:54:32,400 --> 01:54:35,760
Speaker 1: he's at best is kind of like reinvented ideas that

1860
01:54:35,800 --> 01:54:37,880
Speaker 1: have existed in warfare for thousands of years, and he's

1861
01:54:37,920 --> 01:54:40,360
Speaker 1: kind of summarized things in a way that that is

1862
01:54:41,160 --> 01:54:44,919
Speaker 1: needlessly flattening, and like some people will say, you basically

1863
01:54:44,920 --> 01:54:47,800
Speaker 1: like ripped up like added the Internet to Klauschwitz, uh

1864
01:54:47,840 --> 01:54:50,480
Speaker 1: and pretended that you'd invented a new style of conor

1865
01:54:50,520 --> 01:54:53,400
Speaker 1: that you defined a new style of conflict. Anyway, that's

1866
01:54:53,400 --> 01:54:58,000
Speaker 1: like an introduction to the idea of fourth generation warfare, right,

1867
01:54:58,640 --> 01:55:00,320
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of things that he gets again

1868
01:55:00,360 --> 01:55:03,680
Speaker 1: like if you're if you're a history, a military history look,

1869
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:05,520
Speaker 1: which Lynde pretends to be a lot of ship that

1870
01:55:05,560 --> 01:55:09,040
Speaker 1: he gets wrong. Um. So one of the things that

1871
01:55:09,080 --> 01:55:11,720
Speaker 1: he says, like one of his famous phrases, that every

1872
01:55:11,760 --> 01:55:15,320
Speaker 1: military eventually craps in its own mess kit. Um, the

1873
01:55:15,400 --> 01:55:18,440
Speaker 1: idea that like every military that that is great eventually

1874
01:55:18,480 --> 01:55:20,560
Speaker 1: like has a gigantic funk up because they get too

1875
01:55:20,600 --> 01:55:22,920
Speaker 1: used to doing the same thing, which is true. Um.

1876
01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:26,160
Speaker 1: And he describes it as like um. The Prussians did

1877
01:55:26,160 --> 01:55:28,320
Speaker 1: in eighteen oh six, after which they designed and put

1878
01:55:28,320 --> 01:55:31,160
Speaker 1: into service a much more improved model mess kit mess

1879
01:55:31,200 --> 01:55:34,040
Speaker 1: kit through the Sharnhorst military reforms. The French did in

1880
01:55:34,080 --> 01:55:36,480
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy, after which they took down from the shelf

1881
01:55:36,520 --> 01:55:38,840
Speaker 1: and old model messket the mass draft Army of the

1882
01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:41,880
Speaker 1: First Republic and put it back into service. The Japanese

1883
01:55:41,880 --> 01:55:44,560
Speaker 1: did it in five after which they threw their messket away,

1884
01:55:44,600 --> 01:55:46,720
Speaker 1: swearing they would never eat again. And we did it

1885
01:55:46,760 --> 01:55:49,120
Speaker 1: in Korea, in Vietnam, and now in four new wars

1886
01:55:49,200 --> 01:55:51,440
Speaker 1: so far we've only we've had the only military that's

1887
01:55:51,440 --> 01:55:54,640
Speaker 1: just kept on eating. And that's a really dumb statement.

1888
01:55:54,680 --> 01:55:58,040
Speaker 1: That's all really historically inaccurate. So for example, it's true

1889
01:55:58,080 --> 01:56:01,240
Speaker 1: that like the Prussians had a great military which then

1890
01:56:01,280 --> 01:56:03,400
Speaker 1: got its butt kicked by Napoleon and they had to

1891
01:56:03,440 --> 01:56:06,600
Speaker 1: completely redesign it, and by the time eighteen seventy came around,

1892
01:56:06,720 --> 01:56:09,240
Speaker 1: they were extremely dominant in the battlefield against the French.

1893
01:56:09,520 --> 01:56:12,600
Speaker 1: Number One, he's crediting the military reforms of like tactics

1894
01:56:12,600 --> 01:56:15,640
Speaker 1: and strategy and ignoring things like Krupp inventing an entirely

1895
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:19,400
Speaker 1: new kind of cannon that was utterly dominant on the battlefield. Um.

1896
01:56:19,440 --> 01:56:22,320
Speaker 1: He's also ignoring the fact that this Prussian army. Um.

1897
01:56:22,360 --> 01:56:24,320
Speaker 1: He's saying, like the US is the only army that

1898
01:56:24,360 --> 01:56:26,280
Speaker 1: does the same thing over and over again and fails

1899
01:56:26,280 --> 01:56:28,400
Speaker 1: and keeps on eating. Well, the Prussian Army is the

1900
01:56:28,440 --> 01:56:30,400
Speaker 1: army the Germans took into battle in World War One

1901
01:56:30,440 --> 01:56:34,080
Speaker 1: and two and spoilers, they didn't learn enough from either

1902
01:56:34,120 --> 01:56:38,360
Speaker 1: of those wars. Um. He also talks about how like

1903
01:56:38,400 --> 01:56:40,560
Speaker 1: the French had their you know, crapping in the mess

1904
01:56:40,600 --> 01:56:43,040
Speaker 1: kit moment in eighteen seventy after the Franco Prussian War,

1905
01:56:43,040 --> 01:56:44,960
Speaker 1: and they changed their army and it was much better. Like, well,

1906
01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:48,080
Speaker 1: they didn't win World War one, like they were on

1907
01:56:48,120 --> 01:56:49,920
Speaker 1: the side that one, but if it had been them

1908
01:56:49,960 --> 01:56:53,600
Speaker 1: against Germany, they would have gotten fucking steamrolled. Like it

1909
01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:55,960
Speaker 1: was not going well for them for quite a while,

1910
01:56:56,040 --> 01:56:58,480
Speaker 1: and they lost a whole generation of young men. So

1911
01:56:58,520 --> 01:57:01,160
Speaker 1: maybe and and again this is like what he's saying

1912
01:57:01,240 --> 01:57:04,840
Speaker 1: is basically we because we're losing so constantly. The reason

1913
01:57:04,880 --> 01:57:07,680
Speaker 1: that we're losing is not because we are picking bad conflicts.

1914
01:57:07,720 --> 01:57:10,280
Speaker 1: It's not because we're picking to engage in conflicts when

1915
01:57:10,280 --> 01:57:12,200
Speaker 1: we shouldn't at all be engaging in conflicts. It is

1916
01:57:12,200 --> 01:57:16,560
Speaker 1: not because we use military force and like a fundamentally

1917
01:57:16,760 --> 01:57:19,680
Speaker 1: venal and corrupt way in order to benefit a small

1918
01:57:19,760 --> 01:57:25,040
Speaker 1: cabal of military industrial corporations. It's because we we don't

1919
01:57:25,040 --> 01:57:28,120
Speaker 1: have good battle doctrine, and that's why we're not winning

1920
01:57:28,120 --> 01:57:32,240
Speaker 1: in these conflicts, which ignores everything about the reality of

1921
01:57:32,240 --> 01:57:34,960
Speaker 1: the conflicts that like he's talking about, Like the problem

1922
01:57:35,040 --> 01:57:37,640
Speaker 1: is not a lack of combat dominance, which is is

1923
01:57:37,680 --> 01:57:39,760
Speaker 1: what you were seeing with like the Prussians fighting Napoleon.

1924
01:57:39,760 --> 01:57:42,160
Speaker 1: It's what you're seeing with the French fighting the Germans

1925
01:57:42,440 --> 01:57:46,160
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy, right, Like in those cases, the Prussians

1926
01:57:46,160 --> 01:57:49,160
Speaker 1: had a massive failure of combat dominance against the French,

1927
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:51,720
Speaker 1: and the French had a massive failure in combat against

1928
01:57:51,760 --> 01:57:55,600
Speaker 1: the Germans. Their doctrine was just worse. Um. US soldiers

1929
01:57:55,680 --> 01:57:58,480
Speaker 1: are great at getting into gunfights and great at winning

1930
01:57:58,480 --> 01:58:01,480
Speaker 1: gun fights. The problem is not a lack of combat ability.

1931
01:58:01,720 --> 01:58:04,440
Speaker 1: The problem is that there's no way to win the

1932
01:58:04,480 --> 01:58:08,080
Speaker 1: conflicts that we're getting into. They are unwinnable wars that

1933
01:58:08,160 --> 01:58:11,120
Speaker 1: were never things that like, no amount of change in

1934
01:58:11,240 --> 01:58:14,240
Speaker 1: doctrine would have made Afghanistan a success because it was

1935
01:58:14,600 --> 01:58:18,240
Speaker 1: stupid war like its like if if that were true,

1936
01:58:18,320 --> 01:58:24,800
Speaker 1: like coin would have worked. And yeah no, like yeah, yeah,

1937
01:58:24,880 --> 01:58:29,480
Speaker 1: just complete total and utter failure, like enormous numbers of

1938
01:58:29,520 --> 01:58:33,760
Speaker 1: people dead, enormous numbers of like people traumatized for generations,

1939
01:58:33,960 --> 01:58:37,840
Speaker 1: and the U S still just lost both wars. Yeah,

1940
01:58:38,000 --> 01:58:40,320
Speaker 1: just and and and and if you really dig into

1941
01:58:40,400 --> 01:58:42,680
Speaker 1: Lynd and others like him, what they're actually saying when

1942
01:58:42,680 --> 01:58:44,240
Speaker 1: they say that, like we need to reform like the

1943
01:58:44,280 --> 01:58:46,800
Speaker 1: way the military works with new battle doctorents. We need

1944
01:58:46,840 --> 01:58:49,440
Speaker 1: to be killing even more people. We just didn't kill

1945
01:58:49,560 --> 01:58:51,720
Speaker 1: enough in Vietnam, like the five million we bombed or

1946
01:58:51,800 --> 01:58:54,320
Speaker 1: so that wasn't enough. People like that that's the reform

1947
01:58:54,440 --> 01:58:58,560
Speaker 1: that he's really talking about. UM. And when one of

1948
01:58:58,560 --> 01:59:01,160
Speaker 1: those people who like rants a up the like the

1949
01:59:01,160 --> 01:59:04,720
Speaker 1: the the al Salvadorian option, UM, I'm sure he does.

1950
01:59:04,800 --> 01:59:06,920
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what he said about al Salvador.

1951
01:59:07,080 --> 01:59:11,720
Speaker 1: He's a fascinating kind of fascist. Um. He is absolutely

1952
01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:13,560
Speaker 1: a fascist. He was the director of the Center for

1953
01:59:13,640 --> 01:59:18,000
Speaker 1: Cultural Conservatism at the Free Congress Foundation. UM. He wrote

1954
01:59:18,040 --> 01:59:22,120
Speaker 1: a or he helped to popularize a Declaration of Cultural

1955
01:59:22,200 --> 01:59:27,320
Speaker 1: Independence by Cultural Conservatives, UM, which is like these there's

1956
01:59:27,320 --> 01:59:28,760
Speaker 1: a lot of the seeds of the ship that we're

1957
01:59:28,760 --> 01:59:31,840
Speaker 1: seeing today, right that like American culture institutions are being

1958
01:59:31,840 --> 01:59:35,800
Speaker 1: collapsed because of like liberal decadence and conservatives. Cultural conservatives

1959
01:59:35,800 --> 01:59:40,920
Speaker 1: should separate themselves and like set up parallel institutions where

1960
01:59:40,960 --> 01:59:43,320
Speaker 1: Bannon comes in. And that's where Bannon comes in. That

1961
01:59:43,400 --> 01:59:45,840
Speaker 1: where like fucking Andrew Torba and gab come and they

1962
01:59:45,880 --> 01:59:48,920
Speaker 1: all advocate this ship. Yeah, because they're all they all

1963
01:59:48,960 --> 01:59:52,800
Speaker 1: adhere to that kind of uh. Yeah, like politics has

1964
01:59:52,880 --> 01:59:56,280
Speaker 1: culture and and like there's downstream. Yeah. And there's some

1965
01:59:56,320 --> 01:59:59,360
Speaker 1: weird differences with Lynd Like he's a huge mass transit

1966
01:59:59,400 --> 02:00:01,800
Speaker 1: and urban ray advocate, which I guess I agree with

1967
02:00:03,120 --> 02:00:05,440
Speaker 1: every once in a while a bad person does have

1968
02:00:05,480 --> 02:00:07,680
Speaker 1: a good opinion. He loves he loves him some fucking

1969
02:00:07,720 --> 02:00:10,320
Speaker 1: city trains and stuff. Um, but he's also he was

1970
02:00:10,360 --> 02:00:13,120
Speaker 1: a major factor. He was one of the earliest, like

1971
02:00:13,280 --> 02:00:16,520
Speaker 1: prominent conservatives who was like yelling about cultural Marxism and

1972
02:00:16,600 --> 02:00:19,280
Speaker 1: kind of the modern political period. I mean that makes

1973
02:00:19,280 --> 02:00:21,360
Speaker 1: sense because he was real into it. Sounds like he's

1974
02:00:21,400 --> 02:00:24,920
Speaker 1: real into metapolitics. So yeah, that's super in the metapolis. Yeah,

1975
02:00:24,960 --> 02:00:26,560
Speaker 1: so like all of this stuff makes a whole lot

1976
02:00:26,560 --> 02:00:29,520
Speaker 1: of sense if you're yeah, if you're if you know what,

1977
02:00:29,800 --> 02:00:32,120
Speaker 1: if you know what metapolitics are, it's also kind of

1978
02:00:32,160 --> 02:00:36,240
Speaker 1: explains how he developed the different generations of warfare using

1979
02:00:36,240 --> 02:00:40,320
Speaker 1: it through a framework of metopolitics. Actually, if you believe

1980
02:00:40,400 --> 02:00:44,480
Speaker 1: like Breitbart famously stated that like politics is downstream from culture,

1981
02:00:44,560 --> 02:00:46,320
Speaker 1: and if you also believe what Claus I think it

1982
02:00:46,320 --> 02:00:48,760
Speaker 1: was class wits that said that like war is politics

1983
02:00:48,800 --> 02:00:52,400
Speaker 1: by other means than like you can make cultural can

1984
02:00:52,480 --> 02:00:55,040
Speaker 1: cause wars, and like, yeah, like that's a lot like

1985
02:00:55,120 --> 02:00:57,440
Speaker 1: kind of I think the thought process behind Lynn. Yeah,

1986
02:00:57,440 --> 02:00:59,960
Speaker 1: because this this really defines what he means by fourth

1987
02:01:00,240 --> 02:01:04,240
Speaker 1: generation warfare of war being handed out specifically by the

1988
02:01:04,320 --> 02:01:07,240
Speaker 1: culture instead of having it be abstracted to be like

1989
02:01:07,280 --> 02:01:10,560
Speaker 1: people marching towards each other with guns, because he's, he's, he's,

1990
02:01:10,560 --> 02:01:12,840
Speaker 1: he's putting the he's putting the culture kind of back

1991
02:01:12,880 --> 02:01:15,480
Speaker 1: into it. Yeah, and he and he's and he's and

1992
02:01:15,480 --> 02:01:18,680
Speaker 1: and obviously culture was never not a factor, and of

1993
02:01:18,720 --> 02:01:21,440
Speaker 1: course not like every single war has been a major factor.

1994
02:01:21,480 --> 02:01:23,040
Speaker 1: Like all of this ship he talks about is being

1995
02:01:23,080 --> 02:01:26,440
Speaker 1: characters to go. Fourth generation warfare has been happening in

1996
02:01:26,440 --> 02:01:29,120
Speaker 1: one way or another for thousands of years. But it's

1997
02:01:29,560 --> 02:01:32,600
Speaker 1: not that these things are done in like temporal succession.

1998
02:01:33,000 --> 02:01:34,840
Speaker 1: It's like because because like a lot of the stuff

1999
02:01:34,880 --> 02:01:36,880
Speaker 1: that makes up fourth generation warfare, like the more like

2000
02:01:37,000 --> 02:01:41,320
Speaker 1: guerrilla warfare aspects, come way before people with guns marching

2001
02:01:41,480 --> 02:01:45,720
Speaker 1: towards each other, Africans doing that to Alexander the goddamn

2002
02:01:45,760 --> 02:01:48,520
Speaker 1: group for the Birth of Christ. A lot of a

2003
02:01:48,520 --> 02:01:51,360
Speaker 1: lot of this fourth gender stuff is actually like kind

2004
02:01:51,360 --> 02:01:54,800
Speaker 1: of more similar to what original warfare probably would have been,

2005
02:01:54,840 --> 02:01:58,600
Speaker 1: Like Yeah, which I think I think to to his credit,

2006
02:01:58,640 --> 02:02:00,840
Speaker 1: I think he does actually reckon as at some point

2007
02:02:00,880 --> 02:02:02,880
Speaker 1: in his writing now and and and the thing about

2008
02:02:02,960 --> 02:02:04,520
Speaker 1: this is, well, we can pick at it, and I

2009
02:02:04,560 --> 02:02:07,400
Speaker 1: think there's a lot that's ridiculous in his attitude. It's

2010
02:02:07,480 --> 02:02:09,760
Speaker 1: it's close enough to the way that reality works that

2011
02:02:09,800 --> 02:02:12,919
Speaker 1: if you're going if you're thinking about conflict in this framework,

2012
02:02:12,960 --> 02:02:16,440
Speaker 1: you can be very successful. It's not like it's inaccurate

2013
02:02:16,480 --> 02:02:19,440
Speaker 1: in some ways because he's he is wrongly describing why

2014
02:02:19,560 --> 02:02:21,560
Speaker 1: certain things work. I think is a lot of what

2015
02:02:21,600 --> 02:02:25,160
Speaker 1: he's doing. And he's wrong about winning wars. I'll say that, um,

2016
02:02:25,600 --> 02:02:29,080
Speaker 1: if if the American military were to make the fucking

2017
02:02:29,240 --> 02:02:32,560
Speaker 1: lend the Secretary of Defense and give him total power,

2018
02:02:32,840 --> 02:02:35,160
Speaker 1: like he would keep on losing wars as hard as

2019
02:02:35,160 --> 02:02:39,040
Speaker 1: we've been losing wars for everyone listening to this is lifetime. Um.

2020
02:02:39,080 --> 02:02:42,120
Speaker 1: But in a cultural sense, the kind of culture jamming,

2021
02:02:42,120 --> 02:02:43,760
Speaker 1: which is a term we'll talk about more in the future,

2022
02:02:43,760 --> 02:02:46,520
Speaker 1: and but the kind of like the propaganda arms and

2023
02:02:46,560 --> 02:02:50,160
Speaker 1: stuff in order to the the the the media warfare

2024
02:02:50,200 --> 02:02:54,480
Speaker 1: in order to either insight or justify real conflict or

2025
02:02:55,160 --> 02:02:56,560
Speaker 1: or and this is one of the areas in which

2026
02:02:56,600 --> 02:03:00,120
Speaker 1: they have been really effective to alter the dimension, to

2027
02:03:00,160 --> 02:03:03,560
Speaker 1: alter how internationally a conflict has responded to. So one

2028
02:03:03,560 --> 02:03:05,760
Speaker 1: of the big successes of people like this has been

2029
02:03:06,280 --> 02:03:11,840
Speaker 1: effectively eliminating any kind of left wing support for liberatory

2030
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:14,880
Speaker 1: movements in the Middle East, UM, for liberatory movements or

2031
02:03:14,960 --> 02:03:17,440
Speaker 1: for like just like what's happening in Ukraine. That's kind

2032
02:03:17,440 --> 02:03:22,760
Speaker 1: of like reflexive. Well, if there's uh, if there's a

2033
02:03:23,000 --> 02:03:26,000
Speaker 1: movement for liberation among the people of a country, it's

2034
02:03:26,040 --> 02:03:29,000
Speaker 1: probably the c I a like like carrying out some

2035
02:03:29,040 --> 02:03:32,280
Speaker 1: sort of op UM. That's Lynda and his people, UM

2036
02:03:32,320 --> 02:03:34,680
Speaker 1: and people influenced by him have been a big part

2037
02:03:34,720 --> 02:03:37,960
Speaker 1: of pushing that. UM. It's why Steve Bannon is in

2038
02:03:38,200 --> 02:03:41,280
Speaker 1: and is so friendly with like some guys on like

2039
02:03:41,760 --> 02:03:44,160
Speaker 1: chunks that they call themselves the left and whatnot. It's

2040
02:03:44,160 --> 02:03:48,000
Speaker 1: because um, there's there's a lot of uh, there's a

2041
02:03:48,000 --> 02:03:49,560
Speaker 1: lot of ties there, and that is an area in

2042
02:03:49,560 --> 02:03:53,919
Speaker 1: which they've been successful because international support really matters. UM.

2043
02:03:53,960 --> 02:03:56,440
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's uh. And I think like

2044
02:03:56,480 --> 02:03:59,720
Speaker 1: the death of internationalism is one of the bigger successes

2045
02:03:59,760 --> 02:04:04,200
Speaker 1: that these these thinkers have kind of had. But yeah,

2046
02:04:04,320 --> 02:04:06,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's that's that's that's a chunk of

2047
02:04:06,400 --> 02:04:08,680
Speaker 1: what I had to say. You guys want to know

2048
02:04:08,720 --> 02:04:13,000
Speaker 1: more about William S Lynd because he's I certainly want

2049
02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:17,400
Speaker 1: to learn more about William william S Lynd cultural conservative,

2050
02:04:17,520 --> 02:04:21,400
Speaker 1: right big on the traditional Christian values of America. You

2051
02:04:21,440 --> 02:04:26,280
Speaker 1: want to guess who he considers his ideal leader. Uh

2052
02:04:26,520 --> 02:04:29,840
Speaker 1: jfk No, the House of Hohan's all learned. He's a

2053
02:04:29,840 --> 02:04:42,040
Speaker 1: Prussian monarchist. Wait oh yeah, politics. He's certainly into Hegel,

2054
02:04:42,240 --> 02:04:45,720
Speaker 1: and he thinks that the Prussian the Prussian monarchy was

2055
02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:48,480
Speaker 1: the best government there ever was and was like unfairly

2056
02:04:48,560 --> 02:04:50,600
Speaker 1: crushed by the rest of the world and like should

2057
02:04:50,640 --> 02:04:53,640
Speaker 1: have won World War One and everything would like he's

2058
02:04:53,680 --> 02:04:56,880
Speaker 1: he's and so he's he's very much like a conservative

2059
02:04:56,920 --> 02:05:01,680
Speaker 1: monarchist um and a weird kind because like, my god, dude,

2060
02:05:01,680 --> 02:05:04,080
Speaker 1: if you're looking at like monarchs who were like the

2061
02:05:04,480 --> 02:05:09,440
Speaker 1: Hogan's Allerns had like in the modern era, like the

2062
02:05:09,520 --> 02:05:13,520
Speaker 1: first Kaiser Wilhelm was broadly competent, but like it went

2063
02:05:13,600 --> 02:05:16,879
Speaker 1: to ship as soon as the second and he blames

2064
02:05:16,920 --> 02:05:20,160
Speaker 1: all of World War One on the fucking Tsars like

2065
02:05:20,240 --> 02:05:24,320
Speaker 1: it's it's very silly, Like his ideas of history are

2066
02:05:24,400 --> 02:05:28,680
Speaker 1: like very stupid. I have an incredibly silly theory of

2067
02:05:28,760 --> 02:05:33,320
Speaker 1: history based on Hagel, which is that like every everything Hagel. Briefly,

2068
02:05:33,440 --> 02:05:37,680
Speaker 1: for the listeners I know, do not, this is this is,

2069
02:05:38,200 --> 02:05:40,240
Speaker 1: this is, this is the thing. Okay, okay, this this

2070
02:05:40,280 --> 02:05:42,080
Speaker 1: is this is. This is my crank theory of history

2071
02:05:42,120 --> 02:05:45,000
Speaker 1: based on Hagel, which is that every about forty years

2072
02:05:45,040 --> 02:05:48,800
Speaker 1: someone attempts to apply Hagel. Someone like takes charge of

2073
02:05:48,800 --> 02:05:51,560
Speaker 1: an incredibly large state and tries to use Hagel to

2074
02:05:51,640 --> 02:05:55,839
Speaker 1: run it, and every single time they don't understand the dialectic.

2075
02:05:55,880 --> 02:05:58,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't work. So this, for example, like if if

2076
02:05:58,560 --> 02:06:01,400
Speaker 1: you can take this at a very sort of grandy level,

2077
02:06:01,480 --> 02:06:03,200
Speaker 1: right you have Mao Mao has no idea what a

2078
02:06:03,200 --> 02:06:05,440
Speaker 1: dialectic is. You can you can read Mao's work. He

2079
02:06:05,520 --> 02:06:08,880
Speaker 1: has no clue, Like he just doesn't he like, he doesn't.

2080
02:06:08,880 --> 02:06:10,600
Speaker 1: He doesn't get it. He thinks of a dialectic is

2081
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:12,440
Speaker 1: when one person with a bat hits the other hits

2082
02:06:12,440 --> 02:06:14,000
Speaker 1: the other side, and then when you destroy the other side,

2083
02:06:14,040 --> 02:06:15,880
Speaker 1: the dialectic is resolved. Right like that That's not what

2084
02:06:15,920 --> 02:06:21,680
Speaker 1: it is, right, maw like. Because of this, the entire

2085
02:06:21,760 --> 02:06:25,520
Speaker 1: Chinese revolution just implodes. Everyone dies, It returns to capitalism.

2086
02:06:25,640 --> 02:06:29,480
Speaker 1: Is a complete failure, right, you know, and and like

2087
02:06:29,720 --> 02:06:31,520
Speaker 1: a lot of the Nazis are very much into Hagel.

2088
02:06:31,560 --> 02:06:35,360
Speaker 1: They have again incredibly similar failures. The other group, people

2089
02:06:35,400 --> 02:06:37,840
Speaker 1: like Lynda think is part of this is that all

2090
02:06:37,880 --> 02:06:40,160
Speaker 1: of the people who planned the Iraq War were like

2091
02:06:40,280 --> 02:06:43,520
Speaker 1: enormous Sigelians, right, but they've gotten to Hagel through this

2092
02:06:43,640 --> 02:06:46,880
Speaker 1: weird like they they've been doing this, they've been doing

2093
02:06:46,920 --> 02:06:48,360
Speaker 1: these kind of insurgency stuff and so but they're kind

2094
02:06:48,360 --> 02:06:51,200
Speaker 1: of insurgency stuff. Was they read Mao and you know,

2095
02:06:51,240 --> 02:06:52,960
Speaker 1: so that they're so they're they're they're reading Hagel, but

2096
02:06:52,960 --> 02:06:55,240
Speaker 1: then they're also reading Hagel through Mao and now doesn't

2097
02:06:55,280 --> 02:06:57,200
Speaker 1: understand what's going on either. And so when they try

2098
02:06:57,240 --> 02:06:59,360
Speaker 1: to apply the Hegelian dialectic and they're like, okay, well,

2099
02:06:59,360 --> 02:07:00,880
Speaker 1: at the end of the end of the end of history,

2100
02:07:00,880 --> 02:07:03,000
Speaker 1: the end of the Higgelian dialectic is the United States

2101
02:07:03,040 --> 02:07:04,800
Speaker 1: were just going to impose this on a rock and

2102
02:07:06,000 --> 02:07:10,640
Speaker 1: catastrophic failure. So the war listening is, do not attempt

2103
02:07:10,680 --> 02:07:15,040
Speaker 1: to apply Hagel. You will completely annihilate your entire political movement,

2104
02:07:15,560 --> 02:07:18,839
Speaker 1: like every every everything, everything you love and dream of, everything,

2105
02:07:18,880 --> 02:07:21,760
Speaker 1: like every ideology you've ever had. Uh, it will it

2106
02:07:21,760 --> 02:07:24,560
Speaker 1: will crumble beneath you. And yeah, you will watch your

2107
02:07:24,560 --> 02:07:27,120
Speaker 1: cities and you watch your cities and armies burn. That's

2108
02:07:27,120 --> 02:07:29,280
Speaker 1: that's fine because the last time my resistance movement, we're

2109
02:07:29,320 --> 02:07:35,360
Speaker 1: just gonna be postcanty and object oriented on ontologists. Throw

2110
02:07:35,360 --> 02:07:37,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of names, and I'm gonna get like eight

2111
02:07:37,680 --> 02:07:40,080
Speaker 1: of people are just the funk am I hearing about

2112
02:07:40,080 --> 02:07:42,280
Speaker 1: these dead people? The thing I actually wanted to to

2113
02:07:42,320 --> 02:07:46,120
Speaker 1: bring up on this is like how fourth and fifth

2114
02:07:46,200 --> 02:07:48,280
Speaker 1: gen are the idea of the fourth and fifth gen

2115
02:07:48,400 --> 02:07:53,919
Speaker 1: get applied onto like more insurrection based um like revolts

2116
02:07:54,000 --> 02:07:57,120
Speaker 1: or groups. Right, you can see like groups like the

2117
02:07:57,160 --> 02:08:01,160
Speaker 1: Earth Liberation Fund and Animal Liberation Front of Pick and Shoose,

2118
02:08:01,160 --> 02:08:03,480
Speaker 1: elements of the fourth and fifth generation were fair to

2119
02:08:03,560 --> 02:08:07,120
Speaker 1: kind of to see how their groups formed or were

2120
02:08:07,120 --> 02:08:10,560
Speaker 1: operated um and even you could argue that like Ted

2121
02:08:10,680 --> 02:08:13,920
Speaker 1: Kaczynski was like a fifth generation warfare because he was

2122
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:18,080
Speaker 1: completely autonomous and the actions. Let's let's introduce the idea

2123
02:08:18,120 --> 02:08:21,160
Speaker 1: of fifth generation because we just talked about fourth generation warfare,

2124
02:08:21,200 --> 02:08:24,920
Speaker 1: which was Lynn's idea. Fifth generation warfare is a concept

2125
02:08:25,000 --> 02:08:28,120
Speaker 1: that has come up. I believe Daniel Abbott is his name,

2126
02:08:28,720 --> 02:08:31,960
Speaker 1: UM and The idea was that, like, it's a new

2127
02:08:32,000 --> 02:08:34,520
Speaker 1: type of warfare that like characterizes a lot of conflicts

2128
02:08:34,520 --> 02:08:37,920
Speaker 1: in the modern era where almost everything is non kinetic UM,

2129
02:08:37,960 --> 02:08:42,600
Speaker 1: but it is still military action UM, so military social engineering, misinformation,

2130
02:08:42,600 --> 02:08:45,240
Speaker 1: storry or attacks, not just like decentralized, but like states

2131
02:08:45,280 --> 02:08:49,200
Speaker 1: actually using UM organized and often fighting non state actors

2132
02:08:49,240 --> 02:08:52,280
Speaker 1: who are using kind of the singing yeah. And this

2133
02:08:52,800 --> 02:08:55,320
Speaker 1: in a lot of this would involve artificial intelligence, fully

2134
02:08:55,360 --> 02:08:58,920
Speaker 1: autonomous systems, systems not just botan nets, but like algorithms

2135
02:08:58,960 --> 02:09:01,080
Speaker 1: that can like handle a out of the quote unquote

2136
02:09:01,080 --> 02:09:05,080
Speaker 1: fighting UM. William S Lynd hates the idea of fourth generation,

2137
02:09:05,160 --> 02:09:07,840
Speaker 1: fifth generation warfare because he's a narcissist and he doesn't

2138
02:09:07,840 --> 02:09:14,880
Speaker 1: like anyone using the head of the dialectic it keeps going.

2139
02:09:14,920 --> 02:09:17,360
Speaker 1: So what I was what I was thinking, is like

2140
02:09:18,120 --> 02:09:21,640
Speaker 1: is like a lot of you can apply fifth generation

2141
02:09:21,680 --> 02:09:24,480
Speaker 1: warfare to like these types of groups who are mostly

2142
02:09:24,960 --> 02:09:28,680
Speaker 1: like they do some they do some fourth gen tactics

2143
02:09:28,720 --> 02:09:31,800
Speaker 1: in terms of like terrorism, right, like they try to

2144
02:09:31,840 --> 02:09:35,400
Speaker 1: make political statements through terrorism and have terrorism an influential thing,

2145
02:09:36,120 --> 02:09:41,320
Speaker 1: but they're demands like you rarely like fifth generation stuff

2146
02:09:41,320 --> 02:09:42,800
Speaker 1: has not been around a long enough and no one's

2147
02:09:42,800 --> 02:09:46,600
Speaker 1: really been super successful at it in the past enough

2148
02:09:46,600 --> 02:09:49,400
Speaker 1: time for us like to like recognize that, right, because

2149
02:09:49,400 --> 02:09:51,560
Speaker 1: you can look at a lot of a lot of

2150
02:09:51,600 --> 02:09:55,920
Speaker 1: like an instructionary type stuff around like the Again, I'm

2151
02:09:55,920 --> 02:09:58,560
Speaker 1: just gonna use the Earth Liberation Front as an example

2152
02:09:58,600 --> 02:10:00,600
Speaker 1: of like a group that attempt to kind of these

2153
02:10:00,640 --> 02:10:04,920
Speaker 1: types of tactics, um and they may have succeeded in

2154
02:10:04,920 --> 02:10:07,040
Speaker 1: the physical sense, but they did not succeed in like

2155
02:10:07,080 --> 02:10:12,080
Speaker 1: the cultural sense. Really um So trying to like look

2156
02:10:12,080 --> 02:10:14,200
Speaker 1: at these types of things and how they relate to

2157
02:10:14,520 --> 02:10:16,560
Speaker 1: like specific you know, if you're gonna use like the

2158
02:10:16,560 --> 02:10:18,800
Speaker 1: Ta Kazinski example, same thing, except he's not a group.

2159
02:10:18,840 --> 02:10:20,800
Speaker 1: He's just one person, which is kind of more of

2160
02:10:20,800 --> 02:10:24,080
Speaker 1: a fifth gen thinks he's like fully autonomous, whereas I think, uh,

2161
02:10:24,320 --> 02:10:26,600
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like the ELF tried to have that

2162
02:10:26,720 --> 02:10:29,360
Speaker 1: kind of militant group dynamic that is more similar to

2163
02:10:29,400 --> 02:10:32,280
Speaker 1: fourth generation warfare. So it's like this picking and choosing

2164
02:10:32,280 --> 02:10:34,840
Speaker 1: of like trying to trying to do physical action than

2165
02:10:34,880 --> 02:10:39,120
Speaker 1: trying to do cultural action. And it's it's not like

2166
02:10:39,520 --> 02:10:43,200
Speaker 1: the things that have succeeded. Let's take for instance, some

2167
02:10:43,680 --> 02:10:49,200
Speaker 1: the defend the Cascadian forest thing who just got just

2168
02:10:49,240 --> 02:10:52,680
Speaker 1: got um this the specific action they were working on

2169
02:10:52,720 --> 02:10:55,040
Speaker 1: to protect a specific chunk of the forest. Uh. The

2170
02:10:55,120 --> 02:10:58,840
Speaker 1: judge of approved their approved their motion because they were

2171
02:10:59,120 --> 02:11:01,800
Speaker 1: they actually were sick sucessiful because they did not form

2172
02:11:01,880 --> 02:11:05,040
Speaker 1: this militant thing right now, they were just doing the

2173
02:11:05,040 --> 02:11:08,320
Speaker 1: cultural and it actually really succeeded um as opposed to

2174
02:11:08,480 --> 02:11:11,080
Speaker 1: just you know, burning down buildings and stuff to try

2175
02:11:11,120 --> 02:11:13,920
Speaker 1: to get your action forward. So just trying to look

2176
02:11:13,920 --> 02:11:16,760
Speaker 1: at like examples of when when like the goal is

2177
02:11:16,840 --> 02:11:19,720
Speaker 1: kind of the same and certain times succeeds, certain certain

2178
02:11:19,760 --> 02:11:24,560
Speaker 1: types don't. How that might influence like organizing and how

2179
02:11:24,640 --> 02:11:28,280
Speaker 1: to selectively use like insurrection, but have it not be

2180
02:11:28,400 --> 02:11:32,000
Speaker 1: like a default mode for like always your group is

2181
02:11:32,040 --> 02:11:37,440
Speaker 1: better if it's insurrectorary. Mhm. Yeah. And I one of

2182
02:11:37,440 --> 02:11:39,720
Speaker 1: the things that does characterize that I think is useful

2183
02:11:39,760 --> 02:11:43,600
Speaker 1: if we're because again I have my criticisms of the

2184
02:11:43,720 --> 02:11:46,520
Speaker 1: value of any of these like phrases as kind of

2185
02:11:46,560 --> 02:11:48,880
Speaker 1: discreete concepts. But one of the things that I think

2186
02:11:48,960 --> 02:11:51,800
Speaker 1: is useful about the concept of fifth generation warfare that

2187
02:11:51,880 --> 02:11:54,600
Speaker 1: does talk about something that is legitimately new to conflict,

2188
02:11:54,640 --> 02:11:57,360
Speaker 1: that has not really existed before before. The Internet is

2189
02:11:57,440 --> 02:12:01,160
Speaker 1: omnipresence UM. That that the inflicts are not limited in

2190
02:12:01,160 --> 02:12:03,680
Speaker 1: geographical space or in time, and in fact, it is

2191
02:12:03,720 --> 02:12:06,440
Speaker 1: like a constant factor all around you at all times

2192
02:12:07,080 --> 02:12:11,760
Speaker 1: because of the way the information sphere kind of actually functions. UM.

2193
02:12:12,200 --> 02:12:13,440
Speaker 1: You know, you can look at kind of like the

2194
02:12:14,160 --> 02:12:18,320
Speaker 1: mix of street fights and information warfare, doxing and whatnot

2195
02:12:18,360 --> 02:12:21,360
Speaker 1: between fascists and anti fascist for the last few years.

2196
02:12:21,360 --> 02:12:24,920
Speaker 1: It's omnipresent. It's always going on UM. And the battle

2197
02:12:24,960 --> 02:12:27,839
Speaker 1: space is kind of potentially everywhere, even though it's fairly

2198
02:12:28,000 --> 02:12:32,120
Speaker 1: rarely kinetic or physical UM. And I do think that

2199
02:12:32,120 --> 02:12:35,400
Speaker 1: that's an area in which, UM, it is really worth

2200
02:12:35,640 --> 02:12:37,760
Speaker 1: having a new term, in kind of defining a new term,

2201
02:12:37,800 --> 02:12:39,280
Speaker 1: because that's one of the few things I think that

2202
02:12:39,360 --> 02:12:42,640
Speaker 1: has legitimately changed. The Internet has made all of this

2203
02:12:42,680 --> 02:12:45,520
Speaker 1: stuff that's been happening for thousands of years faster UM.

2204
02:12:45,520 --> 02:12:47,920
Speaker 1: But the thing that it's really created that was not

2205
02:12:48,080 --> 02:12:52,240
Speaker 1: present before is this the this omnipresence UM. So I

2206
02:12:52,280 --> 02:12:54,600
Speaker 1: do think that that's really useful when we like I

2207
02:12:54,600 --> 02:12:56,880
Speaker 1: would like to on how conflict is different. I would

2208
02:12:56,880 --> 02:12:59,680
Speaker 1: like to kind of like think about like January six

2209
02:12:59,760 --> 02:13:03,480
Speaker 1: with in these frameworks, right of how of how disinformation

2210
02:13:03,520 --> 02:13:07,240
Speaker 1: and information was used relatively successfully to get a lot

2211
02:13:07,240 --> 02:13:11,200
Speaker 1: of people to actually move towards the more of you know,

2212
02:13:11,480 --> 02:13:14,400
Speaker 1: kind of backed by half the state, backed you know,

2213
02:13:14,520 --> 02:13:17,840
Speaker 1: not backed by well the larger majority. And yeah, how

2214
02:13:17,960 --> 02:13:20,760
Speaker 1: like it's a it's like a synthesis of the fourth

2215
02:13:20,760 --> 02:13:22,640
Speaker 1: generation of fifth generation ideas, which is why you know,

2216
02:13:22,680 --> 02:13:27,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot of overlap with these terms specifically, um,

2217
02:13:27,040 --> 02:13:29,280
Speaker 1: but seeing how like one leads to another, and it's

2218
02:13:29,280 --> 02:13:33,160
Speaker 1: not they're not necessarily inclusion exclusionary. Yeah, I mean, it's

2219
02:13:33,200 --> 02:13:35,800
Speaker 1: like the result is whether they win or lose. Right,

2220
02:13:36,440 --> 02:13:38,680
Speaker 1: that's that's like that that's what makes it a war.

2221
02:13:38,800 --> 02:13:41,960
Speaker 1: Is is the is the is like you decide afterwards

2222
02:13:42,400 --> 02:13:44,880
Speaker 1: based on the result. Yeah, I mean it kind of Yeah,

2223
02:13:45,360 --> 02:13:48,600
Speaker 1: that's certainly like how more modern wars happened, Like with Afghanistan,

2224
02:13:48,840 --> 02:13:51,320
Speaker 1: it wasn't so much like a clear like World War One,

2225
02:13:51,360 --> 02:13:54,000
Speaker 1: there's an armistice and like negotiated end of the war

2226
02:13:54,080 --> 02:13:55,800
Speaker 1: and at a certain date at all ends. It was

2227
02:13:55,840 --> 02:13:58,640
Speaker 1: a lot we haven't done that since we haven't done

2228
02:13:58,640 --> 02:14:00,600
Speaker 1: that for the state, Like you know, I've never known

2229
02:14:00,600 --> 02:14:02,440
Speaker 1: the States to do that for a month, because if

2230
02:14:02,440 --> 02:14:05,400
Speaker 1: you don't do that, you don't have to admit you lost,

2231
02:14:05,640 --> 02:14:08,720
Speaker 1: right if you just kind of like leave and ship

2232
02:14:08,760 --> 02:14:11,520
Speaker 1: gets real fucked up. Um, you can just be like,

2233
02:14:11,960 --> 02:14:14,040
Speaker 1: for one thing, you can say like, if we'd stayed

2234
02:14:14,040 --> 02:14:15,760
Speaker 1: and spent more money on that war, we could have

2235
02:14:15,840 --> 02:14:18,560
Speaker 1: we could have pulled it out, um, which is one

2236
02:14:18,560 --> 02:14:20,320
Speaker 1: of my like there's a lot of great criticisms of

2237
02:14:20,320 --> 02:14:23,720
Speaker 1: how the Biden administration handled things in Afghanistan last year,

2238
02:14:23,720 --> 02:14:25,520
Speaker 1: a thousand of them. But at the end of the day,

2239
02:14:25,560 --> 02:14:28,680
Speaker 1: it's like it was never kind to be good, like

2240
02:14:28,800 --> 02:14:31,160
Speaker 1: it was always it was this horrible war. We were

2241
02:14:31,240 --> 02:14:34,680
Speaker 1: killing way too many people. Um, we weren't achieving anything.

2242
02:14:34,760 --> 02:14:36,920
Speaker 1: And that fact was made really clear by the fact

2243
02:14:37,000 --> 02:14:40,360
Speaker 1: that as soon as we pulled out our guns, um,

2244
02:14:40,400 --> 02:14:43,840
Speaker 1: everything collapsed. And that was always going to happen. And

2245
02:14:43,880 --> 02:14:46,120
Speaker 1: you can needle around the edges of how we could have,

2246
02:14:46,600 --> 02:14:48,960
Speaker 1: you know, better taken care of people who had made

2247
02:14:48,960 --> 02:14:50,760
Speaker 1: promises to or whatever. At the end of the day,

2248
02:14:50,760 --> 02:14:52,880
Speaker 1: it was always going to be fucked because it was

2249
02:14:52,960 --> 02:14:55,040
Speaker 1: a thing we never should have done. And that's that

2250
02:14:55,160 --> 02:14:57,040
Speaker 1: like this idea that Lynd has that like, no if

2251
02:14:57,040 --> 02:14:59,800
Speaker 1: we fix our doctrine, we have better tactical doctrine. We

2252
02:14:59,840 --> 02:15:02,360
Speaker 1: have matter like we have that. One of his big

2253
02:15:02,400 --> 02:15:05,400
Speaker 1: ideas is um he came up with this concept called

2254
02:15:05,440 --> 02:15:08,040
Speaker 1: movement warfare that's been hugely influential in the way the

2255
02:15:08,040 --> 02:15:11,400
Speaker 1: Marine Corps functions. UM. And the idea behind movement warfare

2256
02:15:11,440 --> 02:15:13,879
Speaker 1: is like you should always have a bias towards action,

2257
02:15:14,400 --> 02:15:17,920
Speaker 1: and Lynda is very consciously UM trying to make this

2258
02:15:18,000 --> 02:15:21,160
Speaker 1: basically the evolution of of a German tactic called alf

2259
02:15:21,200 --> 02:15:25,080
Speaker 1: Strug's tactica, which is like individual unit tactics basically. So

2260
02:15:25,200 --> 02:15:27,520
Speaker 1: it's like midway through World War One, the Germans start

2261
02:15:27,560 --> 02:15:30,120
Speaker 1: to realize, like, all these mass wave human charges aren't

2262
02:15:30,120 --> 02:15:33,960
Speaker 1: working great, UM, and we should probably like figure out

2263
02:15:33,960 --> 02:15:36,760
Speaker 1: a way to get around these defenses. So they start

2264
02:15:36,800 --> 02:15:39,520
Speaker 1: training what are kind of the prototype of special forces,

2265
02:15:39,840 --> 02:15:42,400
Speaker 1: these like stormtroopers whose job is to like sneak in

2266
02:15:42,480 --> 02:15:44,520
Speaker 1: and not be seen and jump into the trenches and

2267
02:15:44,600 --> 02:15:48,960
Speaker 1: like you know, fucking axes and clubs and automatic handguns

2268
02:15:49,000 --> 02:15:51,600
Speaker 1: and UM fight in a way that like soldiers had

2269
02:15:51,600 --> 02:15:53,480
Speaker 1: not really fought in a long time. A lot of

2270
02:15:53,480 --> 02:15:55,600
Speaker 1: it was like melee, It was this really and there

2271
02:15:55,600 --> 02:15:57,320
Speaker 1: were a lot of technical things had to get around,

2272
02:15:57,360 --> 02:15:59,120
Speaker 1: barbed wire had to not be seen, how to like

2273
02:15:59,200 --> 02:16:02,560
Speaker 1: deal with machine gun nests um. And one of the

2274
02:16:02,640 --> 02:16:05,640
Speaker 1: keys to it was like the German started to retrain

2275
02:16:05,680 --> 02:16:07,520
Speaker 1: their soldiers to were like you have to have like

2276
02:16:07,600 --> 02:16:09,720
Speaker 1: these individual units of five and ten men have to

2277
02:16:09,720 --> 02:16:12,720
Speaker 1: have like total autonomy. And then unit commanders have to

2278
02:16:12,760 --> 02:16:14,840
Speaker 1: have autonomy, and they need to be will able to

2279
02:16:14,920 --> 02:16:16,720
Speaker 1: like We'll tell them, we need you to be in

2280
02:16:16,720 --> 02:16:19,000
Speaker 1: this this place at this point in time. But it's

2281
02:16:19,040 --> 02:16:20,400
Speaker 1: up to you to figure out how to do that.

2282
02:16:20,480 --> 02:16:23,280
Speaker 1: Because if you're if you've got this one guy who's

2283
02:16:23,320 --> 02:16:25,600
Speaker 1: three miles back giving the commands, everyone's just gonna get

2284
02:16:25,600 --> 02:16:27,080
Speaker 1: mow down by machine gun fire. Needs to be more

2285
02:16:27,160 --> 02:16:30,000
Speaker 1: nimble UM. And that's part of why in World War One,

2286
02:16:30,000 --> 02:16:32,560
Speaker 1: in and World War two, because the rest of the

2287
02:16:32,600 --> 02:16:35,080
Speaker 1: people fighting the Germans, like even the US, had not

2288
02:16:35,200 --> 02:16:37,200
Speaker 1: caught up to this kind of battle doctrine by the

2289
02:16:37,200 --> 02:16:39,440
Speaker 1: time World War Two was over um to the extent

2290
02:16:39,520 --> 02:16:41,200
Speaker 1: that the Germans had. And it's part of why there's

2291
02:16:41,200 --> 02:16:44,080
Speaker 1: such a lopsided casualty ratio in favor of the Germans

2292
02:16:44,120 --> 02:16:47,200
Speaker 1: in that war is they had what is very close

2293
02:16:47,240 --> 02:16:50,160
Speaker 1: to because all modern combat tactics are based on what

2294
02:16:50,200 --> 02:16:52,080
Speaker 1: the Germans started doing at the end of World War

2295
02:16:52,120 --> 02:16:54,720
Speaker 1: one UM and had really like nailed down to a

2296
02:16:54,760 --> 02:16:58,039
Speaker 1: science in World War two UM. And Lynda is saying that,

2297
02:16:58,080 --> 02:17:00,480
Speaker 1: like we need to extend that and like that's the

2298
02:17:00,520 --> 02:17:02,320
Speaker 1: thing we've gotten too far away from and we need

2299
02:17:02,360 --> 02:17:04,480
Speaker 1: to have You need to have like this bias towards

2300
02:17:04,560 --> 02:17:07,879
Speaker 1: movement and this the like officers need to be super

2301
02:17:07,920 --> 02:17:11,760
Speaker 1: aggressive and like always pursuing these kind of kinetic options.

2302
02:17:11,959 --> 02:17:15,119
Speaker 1: And again, as the Marine Corps battle record will show,

2303
02:17:15,440 --> 02:17:19,680
Speaker 1: this is very effective when you were getting into gunfights.

2304
02:17:20,160 --> 02:17:22,480
Speaker 1: But when was the last time the Marine Corps was

2305
02:17:22,480 --> 02:17:24,600
Speaker 1: on the side of a winning war? Like again, it

2306
02:17:24,720 --> 02:17:26,879
Speaker 1: doesn't we can all needle about how to make our

2307
02:17:26,920 --> 02:17:29,240
Speaker 1: troops better at like killing people, but at the end

2308
02:17:29,240 --> 02:17:32,160
Speaker 1: of the day, we're losing wars because we're getting into

2309
02:17:32,200 --> 02:17:34,959
Speaker 1: wars that are not winnable and that's not something you're

2310
02:17:34,959 --> 02:17:37,640
Speaker 1: going to fix with battle doctrine. And and Lyn doesn't

2311
02:17:37,680 --> 02:17:41,120
Speaker 1: understand that because he's a fascist. And I think it's

2312
02:17:41,000 --> 02:17:43,920
Speaker 1: just like this, this is the real like weakness of

2313
02:17:43,959 --> 02:17:46,200
Speaker 1: their politics, which is that was like, yeah, well, like

2314
02:17:46,600 --> 02:17:49,600
Speaker 1: it's they're they're they're trying. It's like they can't tell

2315
02:17:49,640 --> 02:17:52,160
Speaker 1: the difference between war and like they don't think there's

2316
02:17:52,160 --> 02:17:55,080
Speaker 1: a difference between war and politics, right, and that means

2317
02:17:55,080 --> 02:17:56,879
Speaker 1: that they think that there's a military solution to every

2318
02:17:56,879 --> 02:17:58,959
Speaker 1: political problem. And it's like, no, there's not, and like

2319
02:17:59,000 --> 02:18:00,920
Speaker 1: this is this is how and this is why is

2320
02:18:00,920 --> 02:18:03,920
Speaker 1: how they keep destroying themselves, right is that they you know,

2321
02:18:04,280 --> 02:18:06,160
Speaker 1: like like this is what happened to the neo cons.

2322
02:18:06,240 --> 02:18:07,480
Speaker 1: I mean, the neo cons a sort of held on

2323
02:18:07,560 --> 02:18:09,760
Speaker 1: in this kind of rump shell. But it's like neo

2324
02:18:09,800 --> 02:18:13,840
Speaker 1: conservatism project. Yeah. But but it's like, you know, like

2325
02:18:13,879 --> 02:18:16,160
Speaker 1: they don't they don't have like like even the people

2326
02:18:16,200 --> 02:18:18,720
Speaker 1: who used to be their base, like aren't there base anymore?

2327
02:18:19,120 --> 02:18:22,480
Speaker 1: Like those those people are all moving yeah yeah yeah,

2328
02:18:22,480 --> 02:18:24,800
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's like maybe they could have maintained

2329
02:18:24,800 --> 02:18:28,280
Speaker 1: it if they hadn't just like literally blown it apart

2330
02:18:28,480 --> 02:18:31,040
Speaker 1: like trying to conquer a rock. And it's like they

2331
02:18:31,560 --> 02:18:33,920
Speaker 1: all do this. They all eventually are like, well, Okay,

2332
02:18:33,920 --> 02:18:35,440
Speaker 1: well we'll find a military solution to this, and it

2333
02:18:35,440 --> 02:18:37,480
Speaker 1: blows up in their face because it turns out that no,

2334
02:18:37,600 --> 02:18:39,680
Speaker 1: you can't actually do this. I mean, I think all

2335
02:18:39,720 --> 02:18:44,680
Speaker 1: this syndicates a general progression into the more meta politics

2336
02:18:44,800 --> 02:18:47,640
Speaker 1: idea and culture as politics ideas that we're trying to

2337
02:18:48,200 --> 02:18:52,480
Speaker 1: solve all these political problems at least like locally within us,

2338
02:18:52,520 --> 02:18:53,920
Speaker 1: you know, we're trying to be trying to do them

2339
02:18:53,920 --> 02:18:57,039
Speaker 1: culturally and choosing them in selectively in other countries. Right

2340
02:18:57,080 --> 02:19:00,800
Speaker 1: because the more kind of the idea of like let's

2341
02:19:00,840 --> 02:19:03,680
Speaker 1: just keep entering wars, which we're also doing the same time,

2342
02:19:03,720 --> 02:19:07,039
Speaker 1: only for very very very like like very specific regions.

2343
02:19:07,080 --> 02:19:09,400
Speaker 1: But I mean the trend of like first, you know,

2344
02:19:09,600 --> 02:19:12,199
Speaker 1: like Trump's not necessarily and like Trump's notn't really cannogn

2345
02:19:12,360 --> 02:19:15,480
Speaker 1: He preferred the cultural jamming like that was that was

2346
02:19:15,560 --> 02:19:18,360
Speaker 1: his preferred method, and I got him relatively far in

2347
02:19:18,440 --> 02:19:21,320
Speaker 1: four years. And there there's an argument that Lynde is

2348
02:19:21,360 --> 02:19:24,800
Speaker 1: a big person who that he learned a lot from Lynda,

2349
02:19:24,879 --> 02:19:26,600
Speaker 1: even though I don't think he ever read his books.

2350
02:19:26,600 --> 02:19:29,000
Speaker 1: All the people he surrounded him with where fans of Lend.

2351
02:19:29,040 --> 02:19:31,200
Speaker 1: There's a picture of Trump and Lend together and like

2352
02:19:31,280 --> 02:19:33,480
Speaker 1: a copy of or at least Trump together with a

2353
02:19:33,520 --> 02:19:37,760
Speaker 1: copy of his book UM, which is titled Uh, the

2354
02:19:37,800 --> 02:19:41,040
Speaker 1: Next Conservatism Um and I'm gonna read a quote at

2355
02:19:41,040 --> 02:19:44,360
Speaker 1: this point from The American Conservative, which Lynde has written for,

2356
02:19:44,520 --> 02:19:49,679
Speaker 1: that describes this book because it's it's it's uh useful. Um.

2357
02:19:49,720 --> 02:19:53,160
Speaker 1: The Next Conservatism offers a comprehensive agenda of what Lyndon Wayrich,

2358
02:19:53,200 --> 02:19:55,480
Speaker 1: who's his co author on this, call a cultural called

2359
02:19:55,520 --> 02:19:58,279
Speaker 1: cultural conservatism. While the book aims higher than mere policy,

2360
02:19:58,280 --> 02:20:01,520
Speaker 1: the specifics mentioned are Trumpian reductions in legal and illegal

2361
02:20:01,560 --> 02:20:04,760
Speaker 1: immigration in America, first trade policy, and robust investments and

2362
02:20:04,800 --> 02:20:08,440
Speaker 1: domestic infrastructure, particularly street cars and trains in a less

2363
02:20:08,440 --> 02:20:11,240
Speaker 1: Trumpi in vain. It also promotes homeschooling and incorporates some

2364
02:20:11,320 --> 02:20:13,240
Speaker 1: ideas of from the New Urbanism as part of a

2365
02:20:13,240 --> 02:20:17,240
Speaker 1: broader program called retro culture. Of its connection with Trump,

2366
02:20:17,640 --> 02:20:19,920
Speaker 1: lynd says the book runs parallel to what he has

2367
02:20:19,920 --> 02:20:22,640
Speaker 1: been saying, but he doubts the billionaire's familiarity with its

2368
02:20:22,640 --> 02:20:27,240
Speaker 1: more philosophical ideas. Now here's the part that is going

2369
02:20:27,280 --> 02:20:29,119
Speaker 1: to be really unsettling, and this, I think is what

2370
02:20:29,400 --> 02:20:31,640
Speaker 1: lynd may actually be going for, rather than any kind

2371
02:20:31,640 --> 02:20:33,920
Speaker 1: of reform in the military to improve its ability to

2372
02:20:33,959 --> 02:20:37,199
Speaker 1: win foreign wars. Quote. In nineteen ninety four, an article

2373
02:20:37,200 --> 02:20:39,440
Speaker 1: appeared in the Marine Corps Gazette by Lynde and two

2374
02:20:39,520 --> 02:20:41,520
Speaker 1: of the authors of the nineteen eighty nine piece where

2375
02:20:41,520 --> 02:20:44,240
Speaker 1: he introduced the concept of fourth generation warfare. It ended

2376
02:20:44,240 --> 02:20:46,720
Speaker 1: on a dire note. The point is not merely that

2377
02:20:46,720 --> 02:20:49,960
Speaker 1: America's armed forces will find themselves facing non nation state

2378
02:20:50,000 --> 02:20:53,000
Speaker 1: conflicts and forces overseas. The point is that the same

2379
02:20:53,040 --> 02:20:55,720
Speaker 1: conflicts are coming here. The next real war we fight

2380
02:20:55,840 --> 02:21:01,880
Speaker 1: is likely to be on American soil. So that's what's

2381
02:21:01,920 --> 02:21:06,440
Speaker 1: going on here. Like, and that's the thing where biased

2382
02:21:06,480 --> 02:21:09,400
Speaker 1: towards action and increased killing power. If all you're really

2383
02:21:09,400 --> 02:21:11,560
Speaker 1: trying to do is murder everyone who disagrees with you

2384
02:21:11,680 --> 02:21:14,160
Speaker 1: using the military very quickly, well that might work for you.

2385
02:21:15,080 --> 02:21:17,480
Speaker 1: People should know about this. He has a fucking fiction

2386
02:21:17,560 --> 02:21:20,880
Speaker 1: book called Victoria, which actually if you go to like

2387
02:21:21,000 --> 02:21:25,400
Speaker 1: TV tropes, um the there's a TV it's not just

2388
02:21:25,440 --> 02:21:27,880
Speaker 1: TV tropes anymore, but like there's a trope page from

2389
02:21:27,920 --> 02:21:31,320
Speaker 1: my book After the Revolution, and it's directly compared to Victoria,

2390
02:21:31,400 --> 02:21:34,359
Speaker 1: as like they're the opposites of each other, because Victoria

2391
02:21:34,520 --> 02:21:37,360
Speaker 1: is like a book about a civil war in the

2392
02:21:37,480 --> 02:21:45,879
Speaker 1: US that these like weird fascist uh like monarchists win

2393
02:21:46,160 --> 02:21:50,640
Speaker 1: and like it's, uh, it's pretty fucked up. Like the

2394
02:21:50,680 --> 02:21:52,920
Speaker 1: problem is that like like like all of these like

2395
02:21:52,959 --> 02:21:56,720
Speaker 1: the Northwest is controlled by like environmentalists, like leaders who

2396
02:21:56,760 --> 02:21:59,160
Speaker 1: get like eaten by these animals like wolves that they

2397
02:21:59,200 --> 02:22:02,640
Speaker 1: reintroduced to the to the society. And like California is

2398
02:22:02,680 --> 02:22:06,520
Speaker 1: so feminist that it's illegal to have sex and make babies, um.

2399
02:22:06,560 --> 02:22:09,959
Speaker 1: And the South fails because it's it's too multicultural um.

2400
02:22:10,320 --> 02:22:14,360
Speaker 1: And yeah, like it's it's all so the person who

2401
02:22:14,400 --> 02:22:17,440
Speaker 1: wins the war is like the governor of Maine who's

2402
02:22:17,959 --> 02:22:22,320
Speaker 1: a retro culture practitioner um and considers himself a subject

2403
02:22:22,320 --> 02:22:32,640
Speaker 1: of the Kaiser. I maybe getting a couple of details wrong,

2404
02:22:32,720 --> 02:22:34,720
Speaker 1: but not that part I know. But it's it's a

2405
02:22:34,800 --> 02:22:37,840
Speaker 1: fucking nuts nuts So I've only read like little bits

2406
02:22:37,840 --> 02:22:39,960
Speaker 1: of it. Maybe one day I'll get through the whole thing.

2407
02:22:40,120 --> 02:22:45,160
Speaker 1: But that's that's the thing with all with all of

2408
02:22:45,200 --> 02:22:48,760
Speaker 1: these like cultural gambers, like they try to put on

2409
02:22:48,920 --> 02:22:52,959
Speaker 1: like war aesthetics, but all of them were the nerdiest fuckers.

2410
02:22:53,000 --> 02:22:56,720
Speaker 1: He'll ever he's so stupid, and I like he's to

2411
02:22:58,200 --> 02:23:02,320
Speaker 1: All these guys are so is so nerdy, all of them. Yeah,

2412
02:23:02,400 --> 02:23:05,520
Speaker 1: and like lend. Everything about him makes sense when you

2413
02:23:05,600 --> 02:23:09,320
Speaker 1: understand that his primary guiding directive is anger over the

2414
02:23:09,360 --> 02:23:14,440
Speaker 1: fact that there's no longer a kaiser Um. He's a

2415
02:23:14,440 --> 02:23:17,080
Speaker 1: little but also like again, he was not lying about

2416
02:23:17,240 --> 02:23:18,920
Speaker 1: there's a picture of like Trump of this fucking book.

2417
02:23:18,920 --> 02:23:22,040
Speaker 1: He's not lying that. Like fucking everybody who was like

2418
02:23:22,879 --> 02:23:26,240
Speaker 1: pilled in that White House knew about Lynn's ideas and

2419
02:23:26,280 --> 02:23:29,640
Speaker 1: have been He's been hugely influential, and not just among

2420
02:23:29,879 --> 02:23:32,680
Speaker 1: like the American right. His books have been found in

2421
02:23:32,760 --> 02:23:35,840
Speaker 1: like al Qaeda hideouts and ship like. He makes sense

2422
02:23:35,840 --> 02:23:38,040
Speaker 1: though that that that that like all of all of

2423
02:23:38,080 --> 02:23:41,800
Speaker 1: that really tracks because yeah, like the barrier between like

2424
02:23:42,000 --> 02:23:44,720
Speaker 1: terrorist action as a part of fourth generation and in

2425
02:23:44,760 --> 02:23:47,480
Speaker 1: some ways fifth generation warfare and then the type of

2426
02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:50,480
Speaker 1: like culture jamming, those things go hand in hand. Like

2427
02:23:50,560 --> 02:23:52,800
Speaker 1: that is like that is the goal of it is

2428
02:23:53,160 --> 02:23:55,440
Speaker 1: to make it work that way. So that doesn't surprise

2429
02:23:55,480 --> 02:23:57,640
Speaker 1: me that those types of terrorist groups would be reading

2430
02:23:57,640 --> 02:24:00,520
Speaker 1: his books for advice so or for like to like

2431
02:24:00,640 --> 02:24:03,880
Speaker 1: figure out how the other side thinks. Yeah, all right,

2432
02:24:03,920 --> 02:24:06,400
Speaker 1: well that's probably enough talking about william S. Lind for

2433
02:24:06,440 --> 02:24:11,119
Speaker 1: today and cultural and the fourth generation. We'll talk there's

2434
02:24:11,160 --> 02:24:13,520
Speaker 1: a lot to dig into about how these ideas have

2435
02:24:13,680 --> 02:24:16,199
Speaker 1: influenced chunks of the right and now they're currently still

2436
02:24:16,240 --> 02:24:19,600
Speaker 1: being used for like these omnipresent conflicts that are going

2437
02:24:19,600 --> 02:24:21,440
Speaker 1: on right now. And again I do think particularly the

2438
02:24:21,560 --> 02:24:24,840
Speaker 1: idea of omnipresence is really useful for understanding modern conflict.

2439
02:24:24,840 --> 02:24:26,120
Speaker 1: I would I would go as far as to say,

2440
02:24:26,120 --> 02:24:31,879
Speaker 1: like crucial. Um, so this is necessary background information to

2441
02:24:31,920 --> 02:24:33,600
Speaker 1: people to have, for people to have for like some

2442
02:24:33,640 --> 02:24:35,400
Speaker 1: of the other ship. We're going to be continuing to

2443
02:24:35,440 --> 02:24:38,880
Speaker 1: talk in this about in this series as we you know,

2444
02:24:39,080 --> 02:24:42,280
Speaker 1: as we talk more about kind of kinetic conflicts or

2445
02:24:42,280 --> 02:24:46,080
Speaker 1: at least building towards kinetic conflicts. Um. But yeah, I

2446
02:24:46,080 --> 02:24:49,199
Speaker 1: think this is this is a useful kind of grounding.

2447
02:24:49,200 --> 02:24:52,080
Speaker 1: And now I'm going to send Chris and Garrison off

2448
02:24:52,200 --> 02:24:55,080
Speaker 1: to write an episode explaining who Hegel is and everything

2449
02:24:55,120 --> 02:24:58,720
Speaker 1: he believed. I Yeah, it's gonna be great. You're gonna

2450
02:24:58,720 --> 02:25:01,920
Speaker 1: you're gonna hear you. You will watch me go mad

2451
02:25:02,080 --> 02:25:04,560
Speaker 1: in real time. It's gonna be great. Yeah. The other

2452
02:25:04,600 --> 02:25:07,200
Speaker 1: option is I can just read the Wikipedia page for

2453
02:25:07,240 --> 02:25:11,640
Speaker 1: Hegel with like a really offensive German accent. That's better

2454
02:25:11,680 --> 02:25:15,760
Speaker 1: than that, Actually better I'm gonna go to I promise

2455
02:25:15,840 --> 02:25:17,520
Speaker 1: you one thing, which is that I will wind up

2456
02:25:17,560 --> 02:25:20,080
Speaker 1: either Russian or Australian by the end. I can't stop

2457
02:25:20,160 --> 02:25:22,879
Speaker 1: that drift when I whenever I start doing you know,

2458
02:25:23,800 --> 02:25:26,640
Speaker 1: Oh I am a good German. Yeah, my name is

2459
02:25:26,840 --> 02:25:33,160
Speaker 1: Mr Hegel. The absolute that happen here, we're in follow

2460
02:25:33,200 --> 02:25:36,119
Speaker 1: up cool zone media. We're gonna stop that right now.

2461
02:25:36,400 --> 02:25:56,520
Speaker 1: I probably should Oh my Crown, great timing. M hmm,

2462
02:25:56,640 --> 02:25:59,959
Speaker 1: I love oh my Crown. I'm Robert Evans. This is

2463
02:26:00,040 --> 02:26:09,080
Speaker 1: it could happen here a podcast about Greek numbering schemas. Garrison,

2464
02:26:09,720 --> 02:26:10,800
Speaker 1: What do you? What do you? How do you? How

2465
02:26:10,840 --> 02:26:13,640
Speaker 1: do you feel about? Oh Macron? This has nothing to

2466
02:26:13,640 --> 02:26:17,280
Speaker 1: do with the topic we're talking about, So this is

2467
02:26:17,400 --> 02:26:21,320
Speaker 1: this is an update. A few of right last week

2468
02:26:21,800 --> 02:26:27,240
Speaker 1: were earlier this week we discussed the the trucker Convoy

2469
02:26:27,400 --> 02:26:30,920
Speaker 1: scheduled our episode recorded before the truck convoy for after

2470
02:26:30,959 --> 02:26:32,960
Speaker 1: the truck Convoy had already done a bunch of things,

2471
02:26:33,160 --> 02:26:37,320
Speaker 1: which was really good. So we we recorded to talk

2472
02:26:37,360 --> 02:26:40,959
Speaker 1: about the trucks that were that we're going to show

2473
02:26:41,040 --> 02:26:45,040
Speaker 1: up at Ottawa and the thing things did happen. Maybe

2474
02:26:45,080 --> 02:26:48,520
Speaker 1: not that not because like I've been listening. Some of

2475
02:26:48,760 --> 02:26:51,119
Speaker 1: their claims are like and Alex Jones is parenting there

2476
02:26:51,120 --> 02:26:53,000
Speaker 1: now that it was like eight hundred thousand to a

2477
02:26:53,040 --> 02:26:55,840
Speaker 1: million truckers and there's three hundred thousand truckers in all

2478
02:26:55,879 --> 02:27:00,200
Speaker 1: of Canada, like, but it was, it was. It was

2479
02:27:00,200 --> 02:27:02,879
Speaker 1: a lot of people like not to not to downplay

2480
02:27:02,920 --> 02:27:05,280
Speaker 1: what happened. So we're to give an update on what

2481
02:27:05,360 --> 02:27:08,240
Speaker 1: happened there and kind of discussed maybe any ramifications that

2482
02:27:08,320 --> 02:27:10,440
Speaker 1: stuff like this could have going forward. But to help

2483
02:27:10,440 --> 02:27:15,199
Speaker 1: with that, um, we have Dan who came on last

2484
02:27:15,240 --> 02:27:18,080
Speaker 1: time to help discuss Hello, thank you for coming on

2485
02:27:18,200 --> 02:27:21,400
Speaker 1: again to talk about the same thing. Thank you for

2486
02:27:21,480 --> 02:27:24,600
Speaker 1: having me. We last less off with you saying that

2487
02:27:24,920 --> 02:27:27,520
Speaker 1: you hope I don't come back on again because that

2488
02:27:27,520 --> 02:27:29,720
Speaker 1: would be a good thing and it would mean that

2489
02:27:30,040 --> 02:27:32,959
Speaker 1: the bad things did not happen. So sorry to be

2490
02:27:33,040 --> 02:27:36,880
Speaker 1: here under such circumstances. Yeah, you want to go over

2491
02:27:37,640 --> 02:27:41,840
Speaker 1: the bad Yeah, So let's let's briefly do like a

2492
02:27:41,920 --> 02:27:45,320
Speaker 1: recap of like what this thing was like, like why

2493
02:27:45,360 --> 02:27:47,600
Speaker 1: why was it happening, and like what was the idea?

2494
02:27:47,720 --> 02:27:50,480
Speaker 1: When we last left Canada, a bunch of truckers were

2495
02:27:50,520 --> 02:27:53,840
Speaker 1: angry that they had to present evilations evidence of vaccination.

2496
02:27:54,720 --> 02:27:57,920
Speaker 1: This spiraled and as I'm understanding it, at some point

2497
02:27:58,000 --> 02:28:03,600
Speaker 1: then rejecting all public health measures. Yes, actually the the

2498
02:28:03,600 --> 02:28:07,440
Speaker 1: exact demands are for the federal and provincial governments to

2499
02:28:07,600 --> 02:28:11,439
Speaker 1: quote terminate the vaccine passports and all other obligatory obligatory

2500
02:28:11,560 --> 02:28:18,080
Speaker 1: vaccine contact tracing programs uh, to terminate COVID vaccine mandates UH,

2501
02:28:18,120 --> 02:28:20,240
Speaker 1: and quote respect the rights of those who wish to

2502
02:28:20,280 --> 02:28:24,279
Speaker 1: remain unvaccinated. UH. And here's where it gets weird. UH

2503
02:28:24,720 --> 02:28:27,720
Speaker 1: See a good devisive rhetoric attacking Canadians who disagree with

2504
02:28:27,800 --> 02:28:30,160
Speaker 1: government mandates. Kind of hard to say when that one's

2505
02:28:30,200 --> 02:28:34,840
Speaker 1: fulfilled and finally ceased to limit debate through coercive measures

2506
02:28:34,879 --> 02:28:37,520
Speaker 1: with the goal of censoring close who have varying or

2507
02:28:37,640 --> 02:28:42,920
Speaker 1: incorrect opinions. That's what the convoys for. I mean, do

2508
02:28:42,959 --> 02:28:50,880
Speaker 1: you all know what a government is? Evidently I was

2509
02:28:50,920 --> 02:28:54,640
Speaker 1: at some debates in with the state that went a

2510
02:28:54,640 --> 02:28:58,720
Speaker 1: lot uglier than it looks like this. One went oh yeah, yeah,

2511
02:28:58,760 --> 02:29:02,120
Speaker 1: we we we can talk about that. This this the

2512
02:29:02,160 --> 02:29:04,440
Speaker 1: stand off has been well, there's been just that it's

2513
02:29:04,440 --> 02:29:08,760
Speaker 1: been a standoff in that regard. So it seems like

2514
02:29:08,760 --> 02:29:11,600
Speaker 1: they've kind of hooligan around a bunch of towns and

2515
02:29:12,000 --> 02:29:15,440
Speaker 1: threatened a homeless shelter if they didn't give them food,

2516
02:29:16,120 --> 02:29:20,080
Speaker 1: and that they left trash everywhere and set up a

2517
02:29:20,200 --> 02:29:22,840
Speaker 1: checkpoint on the border or just a blockade on the border.

2518
02:29:22,840 --> 02:29:25,600
Speaker 1: I think it's probably more accurate. There's been blockades going

2519
02:29:25,640 --> 02:29:28,440
Speaker 1: on and up the border. I think the most noteworthy

2520
02:29:28,520 --> 02:29:31,000
Speaker 1: is an Alberta and coop right now. But I might

2521
02:29:31,000 --> 02:29:33,400
Speaker 1: be pronouncing that wrong. And what was the police It

2522
02:29:33,480 --> 02:29:35,200
Speaker 1: was something along the lines of we don't think there's

2523
02:29:35,240 --> 02:29:38,000
Speaker 1: like a policing solution to this problem. Oh yeah, so

2524
02:29:38,080 --> 02:29:43,600
Speaker 1: you're totally up to date that that happened today. Yeah,

2525
02:29:43,720 --> 02:29:47,560
Speaker 1: so a little after two pm t D. On lafter

2526
02:29:47,760 --> 02:29:51,840
Speaker 1: two pm today, the Ottawa Police Chief Pewter slowly said

2527
02:29:51,879 --> 02:29:54,240
Speaker 1: in a press conference that quote, there may not be

2528
02:29:54,320 --> 02:29:59,600
Speaker 1: a policing solution to this demonstration. Is it really that easy?

2529
02:30:00,440 --> 02:30:05,119
Speaker 1: It's evidently it's that easy if you wait till kind

2530
02:30:05,160 --> 02:30:07,800
Speaker 1: of like the media has had a few days and

2531
02:30:07,959 --> 02:30:12,480
Speaker 1: most of the coverage is just like breaking bad things

2532
02:30:12,560 --> 02:30:17,840
Speaker 1: still happening. Uh so it's it's not great. So what

2533
02:30:17,840 --> 02:30:20,520
Speaker 1: what was the lead upon set? Right? Because they were all.

2534
02:30:20,520 --> 02:30:22,600
Speaker 1: They were all all the trucks and caravans and stuff.

2535
02:30:22,600 --> 02:30:25,240
Speaker 1: We're supposed to rive on Saturday. What was the lead

2536
02:30:25,280 --> 02:30:27,560
Speaker 1: up on Saturday like and like what what what happened

2537
02:30:27,640 --> 02:30:33,280
Speaker 1: like the actual first day. Yeah, so Saturday was technically

2538
02:30:33,360 --> 02:30:36,959
Speaker 1: the first day, actually Friday. Throughout the day a lot

2539
02:30:37,000 --> 02:30:41,240
Speaker 1: of people started arriving. So the occupation has been we're

2540
02:30:41,240 --> 02:30:46,680
Speaker 1: recording now Wednesday. Um, it started on Friday and the

2541
02:30:46,720 --> 02:30:50,160
Speaker 1: main like the largest contingent of the convoy was staying

2542
02:30:50,240 --> 02:30:54,000
Speaker 1: overnight Friday night in a nearby town called Armfire west

2543
02:30:54,040 --> 02:30:58,080
Speaker 1: of Ottawa, and they moved in from Armpire to Ottawa

2544
02:30:58,160 --> 02:31:01,520
Speaker 1: on Saturday morning. At the same time, people converged from

2545
02:31:01,520 --> 02:31:05,760
Speaker 1: other parts of Canada. UM to Ottawa's east is Quebec

2546
02:31:05,920 --> 02:31:10,640
Speaker 1: and to Quebec's east of the Maritime provinces, and three

2547
02:31:10,680 --> 02:31:14,200
Speaker 1: thousand people at least came from Quebec and met with

2548
02:31:14,240 --> 02:31:16,800
Speaker 1: the convoy to on Saturday, kind of coming in from

2549
02:31:16,920 --> 02:31:19,760
Speaker 1: different parts the day between Friday night and Saturday afternoon,

2550
02:31:20,400 --> 02:31:23,520
Speaker 1: and Saturday was kind of the big day, the big party, Uh,

2551
02:31:24,920 --> 02:31:27,959
Speaker 1: the main point of contention, and the main thing that

2552
02:31:28,040 --> 02:31:31,880
Speaker 1: happened was some major streets are gridlocked by vehicles moving

2553
02:31:31,879 --> 02:31:35,000
Speaker 1: into the city, into the very crowded core of Otto

2554
02:31:35,080 --> 02:31:39,080
Speaker 1: of my hometown and staying stationary on busy roads. Both

2555
02:31:39,080 --> 02:31:41,720
Speaker 1: commercial and residential roads are part of this. Driveways for

2556
02:31:41,800 --> 02:31:44,880
Speaker 1: both businesses and residences were blocked off, fire roads are

2557
02:31:44,920 --> 02:31:48,880
Speaker 1: blocked off, and Wan's routes are blocked off. Local businesses

2558
02:31:49,600 --> 02:31:52,519
Speaker 1: that stayed open had to close throughout the day Saturday,

2559
02:31:52,680 --> 02:31:57,039
Speaker 1: largely UH, some managed to not, and many of just

2560
02:31:57,080 --> 02:31:59,440
Speaker 1: stayed closed already because they knew what was going to happen,

2561
02:32:00,080 --> 02:32:04,080
Speaker 1: and this happened. Closures that happened on Saturday are mostly

2562
02:32:04,120 --> 02:32:06,640
Speaker 1: still going on today as I'm speaking to you. Wednesday night.

2563
02:32:07,440 --> 02:32:11,200
Speaker 1: UH closures followed patterns of harassment, some alleged assaults which

2564
02:32:11,240 --> 02:32:14,080
Speaker 1: I ever mentioned before else happened at a homeless shelter

2565
02:32:15,000 --> 02:32:18,240
Speaker 1: in downtown Ottawa, and pretty much everyone I've spoken to

2566
02:32:18,320 --> 02:32:21,760
Speaker 1: I've I've been in Ottawa, visiting it to my hometown,

2567
02:32:22,480 --> 02:32:24,480
Speaker 1: and pretty much every what I've spoken to who lives

2568
02:32:24,480 --> 02:32:26,240
Speaker 1: in the downtown core is that a slew of story

2569
02:32:26,320 --> 02:32:29,200
Speaker 1: since Saturday of either harassment at work or just harassment

2570
02:32:29,200 --> 02:32:31,520
Speaker 1: walking through the streets. And the worst part of it

2571
02:32:31,560 --> 02:32:33,480
Speaker 1: all is that right now there's not a clear ending

2572
02:32:33,480 --> 02:32:36,080
Speaker 1: in sight. What is it like on the ground there

2573
02:32:36,240 --> 02:32:37,800
Speaker 1: in terms of I know, there's like kind of like

2574
02:32:37,800 --> 02:32:40,640
Speaker 1: a blockade around the border. But they're like, what else

2575
02:32:40,680 --> 02:32:43,800
Speaker 1: is like around Ottawa? What's like? What like? What what

2576
02:32:44,000 --> 02:32:46,440
Speaker 1: is what's it like to walk around in these places?

2577
02:32:46,440 --> 02:32:48,320
Speaker 1: And like how big is the area that these people

2578
02:32:48,320 --> 02:32:50,560
Speaker 1: are staying at? Like where are they staying at? Are

2579
02:32:50,600 --> 02:32:52,680
Speaker 1: they all sleeping in their trucks? Who staying at hotels?

2580
02:32:52,959 --> 02:32:55,680
Speaker 1: What's like? What's like the It's an excellent question. There's

2581
02:32:55,920 --> 02:32:58,120
Speaker 1: there's a mix of hotels were booked up the week

2582
02:32:58,200 --> 02:33:01,279
Speaker 1: leading up to the weekend. As as the new cycle

2583
02:33:01,360 --> 02:33:04,240
Speaker 1: kind of exploded, more and more people called into hotels

2584
02:33:04,240 --> 02:33:06,920
Speaker 1: in Ottawa. A lot of people actually brought tractors. People

2585
02:33:06,959 --> 02:33:10,440
Speaker 1: are also sleeping in their trucks. Uh. Of course people

2586
02:33:10,480 --> 02:33:12,800
Speaker 1: have like family and stuff staying in Ottawa. Sometimes they're

2587
02:33:12,800 --> 02:33:18,520
Speaker 1: staying with them. Um, it's a mix of everything. Actually,

2588
02:33:18,560 --> 02:33:20,600
Speaker 1: I know a guy who even his car was like

2589
02:33:20,680 --> 02:33:23,160
Speaker 1: blocked off in the parking lot. He has to parking

2590
02:33:23,200 --> 02:33:26,720
Speaker 1: because he's downtown. He doesn't have street parking or driveway parking,

2591
02:33:26,959 --> 02:33:29,280
Speaker 1: Like it's in a public lot and he couldn't get

2592
02:33:29,320 --> 02:33:32,600
Speaker 1: his car out for over a full day because an

2593
02:33:32,680 --> 02:33:35,200
Speaker 1: RV camper set up near him and just blocked him off.

2594
02:33:35,800 --> 02:33:40,760
Speaker 1: So it's a mix of everything. Uh. Starting on Saturday,

2595
02:33:41,080 --> 02:33:43,240
Speaker 1: there's like a lot of partying, a lot of music,

2596
02:33:43,280 --> 02:33:45,840
Speaker 1: a lot of kids. Uh. It's gotten a little bit

2597
02:33:45,840 --> 02:33:49,320
Speaker 1: more chaotic and less condensed since then. And also the

2598
02:33:49,360 --> 02:33:53,040
Speaker 1: area is hard to gauge because streets are actually constantly

2599
02:33:53,160 --> 02:33:57,360
Speaker 1: as vehicles move out for one reason or another. Streets

2600
02:33:57,360 --> 02:34:00,520
Speaker 1: are kind of being re taken back organically of the city,

2601
02:34:01,120 --> 02:34:03,760
Speaker 1: but then sometimes throughout the day getting retaken again back

2602
02:34:03,760 --> 02:34:06,080
Speaker 1: by the convoy. So the occupation has been a little

2603
02:34:06,080 --> 02:34:08,520
Speaker 1: fluid on some of the outside streets. Wellington Street, which

2604
02:34:08,560 --> 02:34:11,080
Speaker 1: is the street outside of Parliament in Ottawa, has been

2605
02:34:11,160 --> 02:34:16,879
Speaker 1: consistently occupied, to my knowledge, blocking off kind of not

2606
02:34:17,000 --> 02:34:20,119
Speaker 1: actually blocking off, but you have to walk past them

2607
02:34:20,240 --> 02:34:22,879
Speaker 1: as a pedestrian to get onto Parliament Hill. So that's

2608
02:34:22,920 --> 02:34:24,800
Speaker 1: where the kind of the core is, the action of

2609
02:34:24,840 --> 02:34:26,680
Speaker 1: the action is, and everything else spreads out from that.

2610
02:34:26,800 --> 02:34:30,160
Speaker 1: And near hotels, uh, there's a little more action because

2611
02:34:30,200 --> 02:34:34,560
Speaker 1: that's generally where people are staying. How has members of

2612
02:34:34,640 --> 02:34:38,959
Speaker 1: Parliament and like local politicians has been reacting since Saturday.

2613
02:34:39,120 --> 02:34:40,880
Speaker 1: I know there was there was some videos of like

2614
02:34:41,760 --> 02:34:44,520
Speaker 1: I think one of the MP's from Alberta was giving

2615
02:34:44,520 --> 02:34:48,560
Speaker 1: an interview that gained some traction online. Um, but yeah,

2616
02:34:48,680 --> 02:34:51,560
Speaker 1: it's kind of curious, like how the like different government

2617
02:34:51,560 --> 02:34:54,680
Speaker 1: officials are talking about this. I'm actually so glad you

2618
02:34:54,720 --> 02:34:59,920
Speaker 1: asked that because as of today, the divide in member

2619
02:35:00,080 --> 02:35:04,520
Speaker 1: of Parliament has actually led to some pretty incredible political ramifications.

2620
02:35:05,240 --> 02:35:07,520
Speaker 1: So last time we spoke, I think Erin O'Toole had

2621
02:35:07,560 --> 02:35:10,480
Speaker 1: just earlier in the day endorsed conpoints that he'd be

2622
02:35:10,520 --> 02:35:13,720
Speaker 1: coming down. Erin o't tool, for those unaware, is the

2623
02:35:13,840 --> 02:35:17,000
Speaker 1: leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. He's a real,

2624
02:35:17,320 --> 02:35:26,240
Speaker 1: real o'tool. Wow, whoa mind blown? No one, No one

2625
02:35:26,320 --> 02:35:32,520
Speaker 1: could have seen that joke coming. Every every Canadian listener

2626
02:35:32,560 --> 02:35:38,080
Speaker 1: just like collectively rolled there. Yeah, so Erin o'tool and

2627
02:35:38,280 --> 02:35:42,039
Speaker 1: just endorsed the convoy. He'd been getting some tough questions

2628
02:35:42,040 --> 02:35:47,080
Speaker 1: about it. Following everything we just talked about and more,

2629
02:35:47,520 --> 02:35:50,879
Speaker 1: Erin o't too will walk that back and said, you know,

2630
02:35:50,959 --> 02:35:52,920
Speaker 1: he didn't approve of the way that the convoy was

2631
02:35:52,959 --> 02:35:55,680
Speaker 1: acting in Ottawa. This led to a swift referendum on

2632
02:35:55,760 --> 02:35:58,880
Speaker 1: his leadership and earlier today, Erin o'tool was voted out

2633
02:35:59,040 --> 02:36:04,280
Speaker 1: as the Conservative leader in Canada and that does have

2634
02:36:04,320 --> 02:36:07,080
Speaker 1: pretty big ramifications. I know I talked about Erin o

2635
02:36:07,160 --> 02:36:10,840
Speaker 1: tool a decent amount in my previous Canada episodes for

2636
02:36:10,920 --> 02:36:14,280
Speaker 1: cadapin here. Um, so, yeah, that'll be really interesting to

2637
02:36:14,320 --> 02:36:17,680
Speaker 1: see who uh what's do you have any idea of

2638
02:36:17,800 --> 02:36:20,920
Speaker 1: when the new person is going to try to get

2639
02:36:21,320 --> 02:36:24,279
Speaker 1: noted it? Like, when when do you think that process

2640
02:36:24,320 --> 02:36:26,720
Speaker 1: is going to happen to fill that spot. I'm actually

2641
02:36:26,720 --> 02:36:29,640
Speaker 1: not sure. I haven't looked up when it's gonna happen.

2642
02:36:29,879 --> 02:36:31,959
Speaker 1: It feels like there's been months before where there's an

2643
02:36:32,000 --> 02:36:35,840
Speaker 1: intimaters of the Conservative Party. The main concern right now

2644
02:36:35,959 --> 02:36:39,480
Speaker 1: for those outside of Conservative politics is because Erin o'

2645
02:36:39,560 --> 02:36:42,480
Speaker 1: tool was considered relatively moderate. That you talked about in

2646
02:36:42,520 --> 02:36:45,920
Speaker 1: the Fascism Canada episode, how Erin o'tool kicked out Darren

2647
02:36:45,920 --> 02:36:50,520
Speaker 1: Sloan from the party for being pretty coy on donations

2648
02:36:50,520 --> 02:36:55,119
Speaker 1: from neo Nazi Paul Front on his campaign. Uh. Overall,

2649
02:36:55,120 --> 02:36:57,120
Speaker 1: like that's a pretty great thing that Erino tool that

2650
02:36:57,160 --> 02:36:59,360
Speaker 1: kicked him out of the caucus. Like, regardless of other

2651
02:36:59,400 --> 02:37:04,720
Speaker 1: elements of leadership. Uh, there's worrying that that kind of

2652
02:37:06,160 --> 02:37:09,240
Speaker 1: there will be continued forward, especially because Sloan was also

2653
02:37:09,360 --> 02:37:11,920
Speaker 1: in the leadership race and Sloan has only gone further

2654
02:37:12,000 --> 02:37:17,320
Speaker 1: right since then. Yeah, it is just despite air no tools,

2655
02:37:17,440 --> 02:37:20,440
Speaker 1: not great aspects, which there are lots of. He did

2656
02:37:20,879 --> 02:37:22,959
Speaker 1: he did, he did take it. He did kind of

2657
02:37:23,120 --> 02:37:30,480
Speaker 1: hold back some of the more problematic uh conservative like elements,

2658
02:37:31,240 --> 02:37:33,600
Speaker 1: whether that be you know, people from you know, from

2659
02:37:34,000 --> 02:37:36,880
Speaker 1: his own party, like like Derek, and then also keeping

2660
02:37:36,959 --> 02:37:40,600
Speaker 1: kind of the people's party stuff at Bay Um. Yeah,

2661
02:37:40,640 --> 02:37:43,200
Speaker 1: and that will be an interesting kind of power struggle now,

2662
02:37:43,600 --> 02:37:48,560
Speaker 1: that will be something to observe. I think the thing

2663
02:37:48,640 --> 02:37:51,480
Speaker 1: that concerns me most about all of this is the

2664
02:37:51,520 --> 02:37:55,720
Speaker 1: implication of the implications for this is a tactic. We

2665
02:37:55,840 --> 02:37:58,480
Speaker 1: saw a version of this that was more limited in

2666
02:37:58,560 --> 02:38:02,960
Speaker 1: scope and time in Portland when this huge Trump caravan

2667
02:38:03,640 --> 02:38:06,880
Speaker 1: rolled through downtown, blocked off big chunks of downtown and

2668
02:38:06,920 --> 02:38:10,520
Speaker 1: like just maced and shot people with paintball guns at random,

2669
02:38:10,520 --> 02:38:13,200
Speaker 1: and it was kind of like, I think everyone there

2670
02:38:13,280 --> 02:38:16,519
Speaker 1: was surprised at how many folks they got for it. Um.

2671
02:38:16,560 --> 02:38:19,200
Speaker 1: This is a much more evolved version of the same

2672
02:38:19,240 --> 02:38:21,200
Speaker 1: tactic and it's kind of stuff we talked about in

2673
02:38:21,200 --> 02:38:23,120
Speaker 1: the season one of it could happen here. This idea

2674
02:38:23,200 --> 02:38:27,959
Speaker 1: of like people coming from these conservative majority areas in

2675
02:38:28,000 --> 02:38:30,240
Speaker 1: a place where the vast majority of people are liberal

2676
02:38:30,280 --> 02:38:34,760
Speaker 1: but centralized in the cities UM and blocking those cities

2677
02:38:34,800 --> 02:38:40,279
Speaker 1: off or otherwise disrupting their ability to transit UM, potentially

2678
02:38:40,320 --> 02:38:43,320
Speaker 1: their ability to get things shipped in like food UM,

2679
02:38:43,360 --> 02:38:46,280
Speaker 1: like their ability to use free movement UM. And we've

2680
02:38:46,320 --> 02:38:48,480
Speaker 1: seen pieces of this again in a bunch of places,

2681
02:38:48,520 --> 02:38:51,000
Speaker 1: and in Oregon during the wildfires, you had these rural

2682
02:38:51,040 --> 02:38:53,520
Speaker 1: communities setting up checkpoints and stuff looking for people from

2683
02:38:53,520 --> 02:38:56,280
Speaker 1: the cities that they could bill as Antifa. And it's

2684
02:38:56,320 --> 02:38:58,920
Speaker 1: this it's this world worrying trend for a couple of reasons.

2685
02:38:58,959 --> 02:39:03,440
Speaker 1: Number One, when you get people to do something like this,

2686
02:39:03,600 --> 02:39:05,680
Speaker 1: even if the city has hundreds of thousands of people,

2687
02:39:05,959 --> 02:39:09,280
Speaker 1: that's effectively too large a group to police UM. And

2688
02:39:09,360 --> 02:39:11,600
Speaker 1: the police don't want to police it anyway, so there's

2689
02:39:11,600 --> 02:39:14,760
Speaker 1: not even really an attempt to stop them UM. And

2690
02:39:14,840 --> 02:39:17,760
Speaker 1: it's a way in which the vast majority of Canada,

2691
02:39:18,360 --> 02:39:21,080
Speaker 1: at least based on the polling i'm aware of UM,

2692
02:39:21,200 --> 02:39:24,640
Speaker 1: is not in support of the causes these guys are backing.

2693
02:39:24,760 --> 02:39:27,920
Speaker 1: Was it of the country supports some level of like

2694
02:39:28,040 --> 02:39:32,000
Speaker 1: vaccine mandates. Um, if I'm remembering correctly the last one

2695
02:39:32,000 --> 02:39:33,959
Speaker 1: I read. So this is not a popular movement. It's

2696
02:39:34,000 --> 02:39:36,760
Speaker 1: not even super popular among the truckers. Like the actual

2697
02:39:39,160 --> 02:39:40,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how many people in the cities you

2698
02:39:40,760 --> 02:39:43,160
Speaker 1: can get. If you can get fifty six people to

2699
02:39:43,240 --> 02:39:46,480
Speaker 1: do something like this, the police won't will not take action,

2700
02:39:46,520 --> 02:39:49,440
Speaker 1: and you can negatively impact the lives of a huge

2701
02:39:49,520 --> 02:39:52,920
Speaker 1: number of millions before it gets radical, right. That's when

2702
02:39:52,920 --> 02:39:55,680
Speaker 1: these guys are not coming in with guns with the

2703
02:39:55,720 --> 02:39:59,080
Speaker 1: express plan to eliminate people or trying to specifically block

2704
02:39:59,200 --> 02:40:02,280
Speaker 1: up food. They're just kind of sucking around now. But

2705
02:40:02,360 --> 02:40:04,680
Speaker 1: it's this kind of is this thing we've talked about

2706
02:40:04,680 --> 02:40:06,879
Speaker 1: where you have this is the thing in Canada and

2707
02:40:06,920 --> 02:40:09,720
Speaker 1: the United States, you had liberals kind of outsourcing the

2708
02:40:09,760 --> 02:40:13,160
Speaker 1: protection of society to this group of increasingly heavily armed

2709
02:40:13,160 --> 02:40:16,280
Speaker 1: and radicalized people who are now in a lot of

2710
02:40:16,320 --> 02:40:20,879
Speaker 1: cases fascists. Um. And that means that when there's a

2711
02:40:20,920 --> 02:40:25,080
Speaker 1: problem with a large chunk of people who hate everything

2712
02:40:25,120 --> 02:40:28,080
Speaker 1: you stand for, the people that you have completely outsourced

2713
02:40:28,120 --> 02:40:31,480
Speaker 1: protection to are all unfavor of fucking with you because

2714
02:40:31,480 --> 02:40:35,000
Speaker 1: they hate you. And it's it's a problem in Oregon,

2715
02:40:35,080 --> 02:40:37,480
Speaker 1: It's going to be a problem in fucking New York

2716
02:40:37,560 --> 02:40:41,600
Speaker 1: City or whatever at some point, it's a problem in Ottawa. Um,

2717
02:40:41,720 --> 02:40:43,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, Am I am I off base here?

2718
02:40:43,680 --> 02:40:45,879
Speaker 1: Am I am? I am You're not on base at all?

2719
02:40:46,120 --> 02:40:49,440
Speaker 1: And uh, like there isn't there isn't anything to to

2720
02:40:49,560 --> 02:40:52,320
Speaker 1: really elaborate on pass what you said the last time

2721
02:40:52,360 --> 02:40:54,600
Speaker 1: we spoke. I think Robert, you said there's not a

2722
02:40:54,600 --> 02:40:57,360
Speaker 1: whole lot. It was what you said that could really

2723
02:40:57,440 --> 02:41:01,760
Speaker 1: really be done with the vehicle occupation actic and unless

2724
02:41:01,760 --> 02:41:03,440
Speaker 1: a lot of people are willing to meet them with

2725
02:41:03,480 --> 02:41:07,840
Speaker 1: an equal force, which unfortunately Ottawa didn't have. Like it's

2726
02:41:07,840 --> 02:41:11,640
Speaker 1: an Ottawas. Ottawa's a relatively large city in Canada. It's

2727
02:41:11,760 --> 02:41:13,720
Speaker 1: there's over a million people that live here. It's also

2728
02:41:13,879 --> 02:41:16,440
Speaker 1: by land mass, I think, the largest city in Canada,

2729
02:41:16,720 --> 02:41:18,720
Speaker 1: like east to west. It's it's very spread out, so

2730
02:41:18,720 --> 02:41:21,680
Speaker 1: it's a low population density. So even the affected area

2731
02:41:21,760 --> 02:41:27,040
Speaker 1: downtown is actually like pretty small in relation to the

2732
02:41:27,040 --> 02:41:30,039
Speaker 1: city itself, which is pretty unfortunate. And like it's not

2733
02:41:30,080 --> 02:41:34,119
Speaker 1: a particularly packed downtown for a large SCE downtown. I am,

2734
02:41:34,160 --> 02:41:39,279
Speaker 1: I am curious kind of on the violence aspect um

2735
02:41:39,400 --> 02:41:44,080
Speaker 1: has Like I know, there's been like um increase in

2736
02:41:44,160 --> 02:41:47,560
Speaker 1: the death threats to members of parliament, like specifically liberal

2737
02:41:47,560 --> 02:41:51,360
Speaker 1: members of parliament, specifically liberal members of parliament who are

2738
02:41:51,400 --> 02:41:56,240
Speaker 1: women who are maybe not white of So I would

2739
02:41:56,360 --> 02:41:58,600
Speaker 1: curiously if if you have any more kind of information

2740
02:41:58,680 --> 02:42:01,560
Speaker 1: on that side of thing this and then how how

2741
02:42:01,640 --> 02:42:04,600
Speaker 1: violence has popped up in a few places throughout the

2742
02:42:04,640 --> 02:42:10,199
Speaker 1: past like a week. Basically, yeah, there's been a lot.

2743
02:42:10,280 --> 02:42:13,800
Speaker 1: So I mean, even if you're going by what's reported

2744
02:42:13,840 --> 02:42:16,760
Speaker 1: like right now, there is by most estimates under a

2745
02:42:16,800 --> 02:42:19,520
Speaker 1: thousand maybe at most a few thousand, very far spread

2746
02:42:19,520 --> 02:42:22,400
Speaker 1: out people as part of the convoy. As of yesterday,

2747
02:42:22,400 --> 02:42:26,400
Speaker 1: there's thirteen active police investigations, the police of the city,

2748
02:42:26,480 --> 02:42:30,320
Speaker 1: the City of Ottawa said in the An Oppressor. We

2749
02:42:30,320 --> 02:42:33,280
Speaker 1: obviously know when there's like thirteen active investigations in anything

2750
02:42:33,400 --> 02:42:35,840
Speaker 1: this big, there's way more that's not being reported, not

2751
02:42:35,879 --> 02:42:42,160
Speaker 1: being investigated. Um, like they took you know, like these

2752
02:42:42,200 --> 02:42:46,039
Speaker 1: things are going to thirteen is going to be resultful

2753
02:42:46,040 --> 02:42:47,800
Speaker 1: of something bad. So some of the things that happened

2754
02:42:47,840 --> 02:42:51,120
Speaker 1: Robert mentioned before the alleged assault on a houseless person

2755
02:42:51,160 --> 02:42:55,120
Speaker 1: inside of Shepherds of Good Hope in which a security

2756
02:42:55,160 --> 02:42:58,879
Speaker 1: guard was also called a racial slur. Uh. There was

2757
02:42:59,040 --> 02:43:01,959
Speaker 1: a house that played displayed a rainbow flag outside of

2758
02:43:02,000 --> 02:43:07,360
Speaker 1: it that had harassment and poop thrown at it. Um.

2759
02:43:07,480 --> 02:43:09,400
Speaker 1: They have been we need to get a hundred thousand

2760
02:43:09,480 --> 02:43:12,240
Speaker 1: people together to throw their own poop back at these people.

2761
02:43:12,280 --> 02:43:15,200
Speaker 1: It's the only way they'll learn. Yeah, fighting fire with

2762
02:43:15,320 --> 02:43:19,560
Speaker 1: fire is that that expression? I'm sure just emerged from

2763
02:43:19,600 --> 02:43:25,039
Speaker 1: just tossing poop at each other's strategy. It's meant for this. Yeah,

2764
02:43:25,080 --> 02:43:27,440
Speaker 1: there've been suggestions all of our social media channels on

2765
02:43:27,600 --> 02:43:30,240
Speaker 1: like here's how you can poop in snowbanks without getting caught.

2766
02:43:31,240 --> 02:43:33,880
Speaker 1: Businesses have been harassed, they've been violence, So like what

2767
02:43:34,360 --> 02:43:37,200
Speaker 1: I think maybe some context uh that isn't always known.

2768
02:43:37,800 --> 02:43:41,120
Speaker 1: In Ottawa on Saturday and until recently, dining in in

2769
02:43:41,200 --> 02:43:44,440
Speaker 1: restaurants wasn't allowed. We were actually in relatively strict lockdown

2770
02:43:44,480 --> 02:43:48,400
Speaker 1: following around the chron wave and a lot of people

2771
02:43:48,440 --> 02:43:50,840
Speaker 1: even coming like didn't know that. Like I spoke to

2772
02:43:50,879 --> 02:43:54,200
Speaker 1: people on Saturday who were like, hey, do you know

2773
02:43:54,320 --> 02:43:56,800
Speaker 1: like when the restaurants around here opens so we can

2774
02:43:56,800 --> 02:43:58,039
Speaker 1: like sit down for a meal. And I was like,

2775
02:43:58,040 --> 02:43:59,800
Speaker 1: there's no sitting down on auto this So what people

2776
02:43:59,800 --> 02:44:01,760
Speaker 1: were mean they were going inside cafes like two burns

2777
02:44:01,800 --> 02:44:03,960
Speaker 1: and stuff, and they were just refusing to leave and

2778
02:44:04,040 --> 02:44:06,000
Speaker 1: eating their food there anyways, And if there was no seats,

2779
02:44:06,000 --> 02:44:08,440
Speaker 1: they were just like eating in line. It was also

2780
02:44:08,520 --> 02:44:11,560
Speaker 1: minus twenty eight degrees in Ottawa on Saturday and very

2781
02:44:11,640 --> 02:44:14,120
Speaker 1: very cold on Sunday. There was an extreme cold weather warning,

2782
02:44:14,840 --> 02:44:16,600
Speaker 1: so especially when people brought their kids, there wasn't a

2783
02:44:16,600 --> 02:44:18,800
Speaker 1: lot of other options other than like swarm the malls

2784
02:44:18,800 --> 02:44:20,680
Speaker 1: and swarm restaurants. And even then the mall, the main

2785
02:44:20,720 --> 02:44:23,720
Speaker 1: mall downtown Rito Center, was closed part way throughout the

2786
02:44:23,800 --> 02:44:27,520
Speaker 1: day because it was not a safe place. So I

2787
02:44:27,560 --> 02:44:33,000
Speaker 1: already talked before about routes getting blocked. Also not physical violence,

2788
02:44:33,040 --> 02:44:35,960
Speaker 1: but honking has been keeping people awake. There's been endless

2789
02:44:35,959 --> 02:44:39,560
Speaker 1: honking if you watch video footage from it, and even

2790
02:44:39,560 --> 02:44:41,840
Speaker 1: in the background right now I'm coming from Ottawa, like

2791
02:44:41,879 --> 02:44:45,520
Speaker 1: I can hear honking in my background. Um, some people

2792
02:44:45,600 --> 02:44:48,440
Speaker 1: allegedly parked and then urinated on the tomb of an

2793
02:44:48,520 --> 02:44:57,080
Speaker 1: unknown soldier, which is yeah, this isn't political, is even

2794
02:44:57,120 --> 02:44:58,920
Speaker 1: the wrong way to describe a lot of the what's

2795
02:44:59,040 --> 02:45:01,920
Speaker 1: fun about this these people, it's that they suck. Yeah,

2796
02:45:01,959 --> 02:45:05,920
Speaker 1: it's fucking it's just silly. It's just fucking hooliganism. Uh.

2797
02:45:05,959 --> 02:45:10,000
Speaker 1: And that's yeah, it's it's fucking cooliganism. There's gonna be

2798
02:45:10,000 --> 02:45:13,520
Speaker 1: a lot more stories coming out, for sure. Uh as

2799
02:45:13,560 --> 02:45:16,840
Speaker 1: things progress, um of stories of arassment. Like I've talked

2800
02:45:16,840 --> 02:45:19,840
Speaker 1: to people who have gotten a cat call in the night.

2801
02:45:20,480 --> 02:45:24,520
Speaker 1: People getting violent altercations, street fights, and I'm sure are

2802
02:45:24,520 --> 02:45:26,320
Speaker 1: going to break out. It's kind of at a very

2803
02:45:26,360 --> 02:45:28,280
Speaker 1: tense point right now. And auto we're at that point,

2804
02:45:28,280 --> 02:45:31,040
Speaker 1: we're like, Okay, we're seeing some signs like coops getting

2805
02:45:31,080 --> 02:45:35,760
Speaker 1: thrown at the houses. What's gonna happen next? Because the

2806
02:45:35,760 --> 02:45:39,560
Speaker 1: police are saying they don't have a plan, and the

2807
02:45:39,600 --> 02:45:44,000
Speaker 1: truckers are saying they're not leaving. What's it like outside

2808
02:45:44,000 --> 02:45:46,640
Speaker 1: of Bottle Wall, across across all the other places where

2809
02:45:46,640 --> 02:45:50,480
Speaker 1: there's like similar activity happening. They're all looking to us

2810
02:45:50,520 --> 02:45:53,600
Speaker 1: and being concerned. From what I'm talking to, Uh, anti

2811
02:45:53,600 --> 02:45:58,080
Speaker 1: fascists and Alberta are are particularly concerned right now with

2812
02:45:58,200 --> 02:46:03,440
Speaker 1: the Goop protests. There's ongoing to uh, it keeps seeing

2813
02:46:03,440 --> 02:46:07,600
Speaker 1: popping up like US Canada border activities. In the same

2814
02:46:07,720 --> 02:46:11,680
Speaker 1: there's a few attempted convoys by Americans and even before

2815
02:46:11,720 --> 02:46:14,400
Speaker 1: in Europe there was a few attempts. Some got turned away.

2816
02:46:14,440 --> 02:46:16,920
Speaker 1: Some Americans got turned away at the Canadian borders. They

2817
02:46:16,959 --> 02:46:23,160
Speaker 1: weren't vaccinated. M Yeah, which is you know, like it's

2818
02:46:23,200 --> 02:46:28,080
Speaker 1: like you think, because that's the reason they're saying they're protesting,

2819
02:46:28,160 --> 02:46:31,000
Speaker 1: they would have remembered that and thought maybe that's gonna

2820
02:46:31,080 --> 02:46:34,200
Speaker 1: like come into play, But I don't. Yeah, I don't know,

2821
02:46:34,200 --> 02:46:36,600
Speaker 1: because there is a certain point where if you get

2822
02:46:36,680 --> 02:46:39,119
Speaker 1: enough people going, it would be interesting to see people

2823
02:46:39,160 --> 02:46:44,039
Speaker 1: really do just try to like drive through the border. Yeah. Yeah,

2824
02:46:44,480 --> 02:46:46,320
Speaker 1: And I mean there's been people like you look at

2825
02:46:46,360 --> 02:46:47,959
Speaker 1: social media channels, a lot of them saying like the

2826
02:46:47,959 --> 02:46:50,920
Speaker 1: borders are blocked right now with thousands of truckers supporting

2827
02:46:50,920 --> 02:46:53,160
Speaker 1: our cause. So if you saw that and you believed it,

2828
02:46:53,160 --> 02:46:54,360
Speaker 1: and then you went to the border and your turn

2829
02:46:54,360 --> 02:46:56,320
Speaker 1: away reading vaccine, you meant thought, well, I thought I

2830
02:46:56,320 --> 02:46:59,360
Speaker 1: had you know, nine people the same causes being we're

2831
02:46:59,400 --> 02:47:01,800
Speaker 1: ready to use worst, which begs the question, well, what

2832
02:47:01,840 --> 02:47:06,120
Speaker 1: happens when you do exactly? I don't want to find out. Yeah,

2833
02:47:06,120 --> 02:47:10,000
Speaker 1: that's yeah. That's the thing is like if if if

2834
02:47:10,080 --> 02:47:12,360
Speaker 1: they do, if they did have what they say they had,

2835
02:47:12,600 --> 02:47:14,520
Speaker 1: would they just start doing those things and not even

2836
02:47:14,520 --> 02:47:16,080
Speaker 1: think about it and not even think about like the

2837
02:47:16,160 --> 02:47:19,600
Speaker 1: politics of it. They're just doing it to do it. Yeah.

2838
02:47:19,840 --> 02:47:22,280
Speaker 1: I should also mention too, we talked last time about

2839
02:47:24,240 --> 02:47:28,560
Speaker 1: a Plaid Army slash Diaglon members comments. Uh. They were

2840
02:47:28,720 --> 02:47:33,040
Speaker 1: broadcast on the news about doing another quote January six, uh,

2841
02:47:33,160 --> 02:47:35,080
Speaker 1: and it came out the news to do was first

2842
02:47:35,080 --> 02:47:37,199
Speaker 1: reported by Frank magazine and I think by the Canadian

2843
02:47:37,160 --> 02:47:40,040
Speaker 1: Anti eight network that he was arrested on fire up

2844
02:47:40,040 --> 02:47:44,120
Speaker 1: stridges in the Scotia before coming here. Worth noting he

2845
02:47:44,280 --> 02:47:47,199
Speaker 1: was reporting live on Info Wars on the Alex Jones

2846
02:47:47,200 --> 02:47:52,520
Speaker 1: Stones Saturday before this came out and Derek Skid coverage. Yeah,

2847
02:47:52,560 --> 02:47:55,560
Speaker 1: Derek Sloan and Nazrael event were also on the same program,

2848
02:47:55,600 --> 02:47:58,840
Speaker 1: So I mentioned Info Wars before. That's that's great. That's

2849
02:47:58,879 --> 02:48:02,200
Speaker 1: what's going on there. Can you see any like beyond

2850
02:48:02,400 --> 02:48:06,440
Speaker 1: the conservative leadership, what other kind of political implications are

2851
02:48:06,440 --> 02:48:09,840
Speaker 1: people thinking about in Canada. It's really tense seeing what's

2852
02:48:09,879 --> 02:48:12,600
Speaker 1: gonna come for other cities. Also, Otto was expecting a

2853
02:48:12,640 --> 02:48:16,280
Speaker 1: second wave some other people in other places that kind

2854
02:48:16,280 --> 02:48:17,560
Speaker 1: of didn't think the first one is going to be

2855
02:48:17,640 --> 02:48:19,640
Speaker 1: duge eccess. We're saying, well, now that it's an occupation,

2856
02:48:19,680 --> 02:48:22,640
Speaker 1: we're coming, and police are even saying there's a second wave.

2857
02:48:23,120 --> 02:48:26,640
Speaker 1: It's a very tense place right now. We don't really

2858
02:48:26,640 --> 02:48:31,080
Speaker 1: know what to do. Community places are taking direct community

2859
02:48:31,280 --> 02:48:34,720
Speaker 1: members are talking about taking direct action because it's been

2860
02:48:34,800 --> 02:48:37,120
Speaker 1: so long. This isn't something that the City of Ottawa

2861
02:48:37,160 --> 02:48:41,200
Speaker 1: is particularly used to, unfortunately in my lifetime, and so

2862
02:48:41,240 --> 02:48:44,840
Speaker 1: the ramifications of the future pretty jarring. But what's alarming

2863
02:48:44,959 --> 02:48:49,360
Speaker 1: is how successful this occupation was with a relatively small number.

2864
02:48:49,360 --> 02:48:51,680
Speaker 1: I think the highest estimate it was eighteen thousand people

2865
02:48:52,320 --> 02:48:54,600
Speaker 1: into a city of over a million, which isn't really

2866
02:48:54,640 --> 02:48:56,400
Speaker 1: that many when you think about it, but the strategy

2867
02:48:56,520 --> 02:48:59,360
Speaker 1: was very very effective. Do you think about how many

2868
02:49:00,120 --> 02:49:02,840
Speaker 1: fighters it took for Josh to take control of mozl

2869
02:49:03,720 --> 02:49:06,720
Speaker 1: if people if there's not resistance, like, there's only really

2870
02:49:07,400 --> 02:49:09,400
Speaker 1: a few areas of a city that you need to

2871
02:49:09,520 --> 02:49:12,000
Speaker 1: occupy in order to have a great deal of control

2872
02:49:12,040 --> 02:49:15,400
Speaker 1: over what can be done. Yeah, And that's the tough

2873
02:49:15,400 --> 02:49:17,120
Speaker 1: part is they have a lot of control over that

2874
02:49:17,160 --> 02:49:19,480
Speaker 1: small area in residents lives. They don't have a lot

2875
02:49:19,480 --> 02:49:25,040
Speaker 1: of control over Parliament, which is what they're protesting for. Yeah.

2876
02:49:25,240 --> 02:49:27,840
Speaker 1: I'm also just to see has the Canadian military said

2877
02:49:27,840 --> 02:49:32,680
Speaker 1: anything about these protests and the situation. So the Autawa

2878
02:49:32,680 --> 02:49:34,640
Speaker 1: police chief in his pressure day was asked a lot

2879
02:49:34,720 --> 02:49:37,680
Speaker 1: about that, and he's still shying away. He's still saying

2880
02:49:37,879 --> 02:49:41,280
Speaker 1: he doesn't think military is the only option, which if

2881
02:49:41,320 --> 02:49:43,880
Speaker 1: you're an activist on the other side of things and

2882
02:49:44,000 --> 02:49:47,400
Speaker 1: worried about police escalation hurting you in the future, that

2883
02:49:47,560 --> 02:49:49,840
Speaker 1: might be a good thing to hear. Yea an a

2884
02:49:49,959 --> 02:49:54,039
Speaker 1: see of shitty news. I'm not convinced that the military

2885
02:49:54,240 --> 02:49:58,000
Speaker 1: would fix the problem. I'm not either. And also Ottawa

2886
02:49:58,120 --> 02:50:01,600
Speaker 1: had other police forces coming to They said they're spending

2887
02:50:01,600 --> 02:50:05,320
Speaker 1: eight hundred thousand dollars a day, uh initially to just

2888
02:50:05,840 --> 02:50:09,960
Speaker 1: cost of policing. Yeah. They also said they've only, like bylaws,

2889
02:50:10,000 --> 02:50:12,640
Speaker 1: only had a hundred fifty tickets since this whole thing

2890
02:50:12,680 --> 02:50:16,720
Speaker 1: started in the occupied zone. So it's it's unclear what

2891
02:50:16,760 --> 02:50:18,720
Speaker 1: a lot of them did other than you know, keep

2892
02:50:18,800 --> 02:50:21,800
Speaker 1: up appearances. Uh. Like I was walking around I saw

2893
02:50:21,920 --> 02:50:24,440
Speaker 1: York Region police officers walking around with their patches. That's

2894
02:50:24,480 --> 02:50:29,360
Speaker 1: hundreds of kilometers away from Ottawa. So the police presence,

2895
02:50:29,680 --> 02:50:31,800
Speaker 1: especially on the weekend, was not low. We we had

2896
02:50:31,840 --> 02:50:35,880
Speaker 1: plenty mhm. They either didn't know what to do, I

2897
02:50:35,959 --> 02:50:39,200
Speaker 1: thought it would die later, or a mixture of all

2898
02:50:39,280 --> 02:50:43,320
Speaker 1: the above. And there's been talked to mixtures of Some

2899
02:50:43,480 --> 02:50:45,920
Speaker 1: police officers have not been happy with it, but there

2900
02:50:45,920 --> 02:50:47,760
Speaker 1: hasn't been really anything in the news yet because no

2901
02:50:47,800 --> 02:50:49,680
Speaker 1: one's come forward. A lot of like tweets of like

2902
02:50:50,920 --> 02:50:53,800
Speaker 1: from reporter saying I have an anonymous source in the

2903
02:50:53,840 --> 02:50:57,000
Speaker 1: auto police. It says they wish more actions were taken,

2904
02:50:58,080 --> 02:51:00,560
Speaker 1: some saying otherwise, it's not really united it right now,

2905
02:51:00,680 --> 02:51:06,000
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's scary. Is there any counter protests being

2906
02:51:06,000 --> 02:51:10,360
Speaker 1: planned for Ottawa? If I knew, i'd say so, because

2907
02:51:10,400 --> 02:51:12,240
Speaker 1: by the time this error is it would have happened,

2908
02:51:12,240 --> 02:51:15,760
Speaker 1: so I could be safe to talk about. But fortunately

2909
02:51:16,959 --> 02:51:19,400
Speaker 1: I'm not really insure. I'm not actually sure, but it

2910
02:51:19,480 --> 02:51:23,320
Speaker 1: might not be the best person to ask. Okay, Yeah,

2911
02:51:23,879 --> 02:51:27,760
Speaker 1: we're keeping an eye out. Well. The good news is

2912
02:51:28,320 --> 02:51:32,840
Speaker 1: that all men die, and so long as men die,

2913
02:51:33,040 --> 02:51:37,119
Speaker 1: liberty will never perish. Right, that's good. It's an upside.

2914
02:51:37,560 --> 02:51:41,560
Speaker 1: That is an upside, it's an up positive shot. All right, Well,

2915
02:51:42,360 --> 02:51:44,640
Speaker 1: that's gonna do it for us. We'll keep an eye

2916
02:51:44,680 --> 02:51:47,800
Speaker 1: on this and um what what results from it, because

2917
02:51:47,800 --> 02:51:52,800
Speaker 1: it's all pretty concerning, um and worth having having an eye.

2918
02:51:52,800 --> 02:51:55,400
Speaker 1: And I'm particularly curious is to just like what kind

2919
02:51:55,440 --> 02:51:59,480
Speaker 1: of direct community responses to this develop because I think

2920
02:51:59,520 --> 02:52:02,039
Speaker 1: that's gonna wind up being the only long term solution.

2921
02:52:02,560 --> 02:52:04,480
Speaker 1: You know. It's kind of what people saw in Portland

2922
02:52:04,640 --> 02:52:07,920
Speaker 1: that there's a there's a degree to which like the

2923
02:52:08,000 --> 02:52:10,520
Speaker 1: only thing that really works as a response is is

2924
02:52:11,240 --> 02:52:15,000
Speaker 1: out numbering them. Yeah. On on that note, it might

2925
02:52:15,040 --> 02:52:18,680
Speaker 1: be maybe not the smoothest transition, But there are actually

2926
02:52:18,720 --> 02:52:22,160
Speaker 1: some Autowa Mutual Aid funds and then Advocate Secrets that

2927
02:52:22,240 --> 02:52:26,039
Speaker 1: are doing some some cool stuff. And there's that there's

2928
02:52:26,080 --> 02:52:30,000
Speaker 1: too many of the list for everyone, but others have

2929
02:52:30,040 --> 02:52:31,920
Speaker 1: compiled lists, and I'm gonna point to you there So

2930
02:52:32,480 --> 02:52:35,680
Speaker 1: ROSE Ottawa which stands for Rainbow Autowa Student Experience as

2931
02:52:35,680 --> 02:52:39,160
Speaker 1: serves two s l G B t q I A

2932
02:52:39,240 --> 02:52:44,200
Speaker 1: plus post secondary students on unseated algonquin on a Shnave territory. No,

2933
02:52:44,320 --> 02:52:46,880
Speaker 1: they have closed op donations for themselves following a wonderful

2934
02:52:46,920 --> 02:52:49,280
Speaker 1: spike recently. They have a list of black lead and

2935
02:52:49,320 --> 02:52:52,280
Speaker 1: black empowering organizations on their website with donation links and

2936
02:52:52,280 --> 02:52:57,080
Speaker 1: you can reach that at Rose Ottawa dot org slash donations. Uh,

2937
02:52:57,120 --> 02:53:00,000
Speaker 1: there's a cool little Instagram account called Transit is Beautiful

2938
02:53:00,120 --> 02:53:02,120
Speaker 1: O T T O T T stands for Ottawa and

2939
02:53:02,120 --> 02:53:04,720
Speaker 1: that's all one word. It's been plugging small fundraisers for

2940
02:53:04,840 --> 02:53:07,760
Speaker 1: queer folks affected by the Convoy, including housing support on

2941
02:53:07,800 --> 02:53:11,000
Speaker 1: their Instagram. Again, that's trans is Beautiful O T T

2942
02:53:11,280 --> 02:53:15,080
Speaker 1: on Instagram. Uh. Something we didn't get to talk about,

2943
02:53:15,440 --> 02:53:18,280
Speaker 1: which is ram Ranch Ram Ranch dot c A r

2944
02:53:18,360 --> 02:53:21,560
Speaker 1: A n dash Ranch dot c A a website was

2945
02:53:21,600 --> 02:53:24,120
Speaker 1: set up in the name of trolling the convoy zelo

2946
02:53:24,240 --> 02:53:28,000
Speaker 1: chats and has been doing a fantastic job about There's

2947
02:53:28,000 --> 02:53:30,240
Speaker 1: a whole army of trolls in the truckers Ello chats

2948
02:53:30,280 --> 02:53:34,680
Speaker 1: and it's been really entertaining to tune into. They've compiled

2949
02:53:34,680 --> 02:53:36,720
Speaker 1: the list of charities on their website. You can check

2950
02:53:36,760 --> 02:53:39,160
Speaker 1: that out at ram dash Ranch dot c A and

2951
02:53:39,200 --> 02:53:44,959
Speaker 1: clicking on the Rancher's donation zone. And yeah, where can

2952
02:53:45,240 --> 02:53:47,880
Speaker 1: where can people find you? On the internet? People can

2953
02:53:47,879 --> 02:53:50,119
Speaker 1: find me on the internet some super active on Twitter

2954
02:53:50,760 --> 02:53:58,880
Speaker 1: at at spineless L where it spineless the letter L fantastic. Well, hopefully,

2955
02:54:00,280 --> 02:54:03,400
Speaker 1: hopefully this gets all resolved and I don't need to

2956
02:54:04,040 --> 02:54:06,520
Speaker 1: fly up to Canada to go to a protest, and

2957
02:54:06,720 --> 02:54:09,680
Speaker 1: if if we do, that'll be fun. I've been wanting

2958
02:54:09,680 --> 02:54:11,440
Speaker 1: to go to Canada for a minute. Yeah I can,

2959
02:54:11,560 --> 02:54:14,640
Speaker 1: we can. We can take drugs at tim Morton's. That

2960
02:54:14,879 --> 02:54:18,200
Speaker 1: would be fun. Yeah. God, you know, I haven't vomited

2961
02:54:18,240 --> 02:54:21,840
Speaker 1: in a Tim Horton's bathroom in a long time. Our

2962
02:54:22,360 --> 02:54:25,320
Speaker 1: local McDonald's that got famous on the internet for a

2963
02:54:25,440 --> 02:54:28,320
Speaker 1: fistfight that someone pulled a raccoon out of their backpack

2964
02:54:28,440 --> 02:54:31,240
Speaker 1: during had to actually stop being twenty four hours after

2965
02:54:31,280 --> 02:54:33,440
Speaker 1: the mayor pleaded with them because it was using up

2966
02:54:33,480 --> 02:54:37,039
Speaker 1: too many police resources. That is the best kind of

2967
02:54:37,080 --> 02:54:46,920
Speaker 1: place in a year. That's so dope. Oh god, yeah,

2968
02:54:47,000 --> 02:54:49,160
Speaker 1: I want to I want to set up somewhere on

2969
02:54:49,200 --> 02:54:51,800
Speaker 1: the border in the East coast to tim Horton's, directly

2970
02:54:51,840 --> 02:54:54,440
Speaker 1: across the street from a waffle house and just let

2971
02:54:54,480 --> 02:54:59,879
Speaker 1: them fight. Uh well, yeah, we we do. We we

2972
02:55:00,000 --> 02:55:01,920
Speaker 1: do miss that here. That's that's in the year. You'll

2973
02:55:01,959 --> 02:55:03,400
Speaker 1: have to bring that for you have to bring that over,

2974
02:55:03,440 --> 02:55:05,920
Speaker 1: bring a waffle Houst finds. Over all you need to

2975
02:55:05,959 --> 02:55:08,679
Speaker 1: do is watch a man get stabbed and then spiritually

2976
02:55:08,680 --> 02:55:14,440
Speaker 1: you're at a waffle house. That that that ties back

2977
02:55:14,440 --> 02:55:17,400
Speaker 1: to the future of the Convoy. You're right, Well, that

2978
02:55:19,440 --> 02:55:35,360
Speaker 1: does it for us today, everybody, We will see you later. Hey,

2979
02:55:35,400 --> 02:55:38,520
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

2980
02:55:38,520 --> 02:55:41,280
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could

2981
02:55:41,320 --> 02:55:43,760
Speaker 1: Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. Or

2982
02:55:43,800 --> 02:55:46,520
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool

2983
02:55:46,560 --> 02:55:48,560
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the

2984
02:55:48,560 --> 02:55:51,280
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

2985
02:55:51,320 --> 02:55:54,240
Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here,

2986
02:55:54,320 --> 02:55:57,760
Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources.

2987
02:55:58,000 --> 02:55:58,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.