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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zephim vast

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Speaker 1: start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is

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Speaker 2: Jamie Loftus and.

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Speaker 3: My name's Caitlin Derante.

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Speaker 2: And before we get our episodes started today, we wanted

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Speaker 2: to welcome all our new listeners. This is our first

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Speaker 2: episode on the How Stuff Works Network. We are so

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Speaker 2: thrilled to be here. Yes, so if this is your

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Speaker 2: first time listening to our podcast, we'll just give you

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Speaker 2: a quick explainer on what we do here.

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Speaker 3: That's right, So we again are the Bechdel Cast. We

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Speaker 3: talk about the portrayal and representation of women in movies

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Speaker 3: through an intersectional feminist lens.

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Speaker 2: Every Thursday, we bring in a special guest who brings

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Speaker 2: in one of their favorite movies, a movie that's really

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Speaker 2: affected them, and we tear it apart based on the

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Speaker 2: way that it treats women in that movie. Sometimes it

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Speaker 2: does really well, times not so nice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Hollywood kind of has a long history of not

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Speaker 3: representing women well at all what Yeah, hard to believe.

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Speaker 2: Hot take.

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Speaker 3: That's why we're here. We use the Bechdel test as

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Speaker 3: a sort of jumping off point to initiate this larger

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Speaker 3: conversation about representation of women.

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Speaker 2: What on earth is the Bechdel Test? Kaitlin?

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Speaker 3: Why, Jamie? I'd be happy to tell you, Okay. It

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Speaker 3: is a test that originated from cartoonist Alison Bechdel in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties. It requires that a movie has at

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Speaker 3: least two women in it who have names check. They

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Speaker 3: have to speak to each other eick, and that conversation

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Speaker 3: cannot be about a man.

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Speaker 2: Oh at all? Word?

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 2: Shall we demo it?

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Speaker 3: I'd love to.

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Speaker 2: Let's demo it for the people? Okay, begin test. Hi, Caitlin,

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Speaker 2: Hey Jamie, did you know that this is our first

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Speaker 2: episode on the House Stuff Works Network?

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Speaker 3: I did know that, Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: But like for people who are like new to the podcast,

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Speaker 2: like what should listened to? Are there other episodes?

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Speaker 3: There are because we've operated independently up until now. Good

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Speaker 3: for us, I know we're such strong independent women.

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Speaker 2: Queen go off.

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Speaker 3: We have over eighty episodes backlogged of a ton of

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Speaker 3: different movies, so check those out. Chances are we've covered

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Speaker 3: one of your favorites.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've got a lot of hot, spicy backlog with

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Speaker 2: some hot spicy discourse. We've covered Star Wars, We've.

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Speaker 3: Covered Black Panther, We've covered Jili for some reason, we

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Speaker 3: covered Gilie.

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Speaker 2: We sure did. Uh So, did that conversation pass the

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Speaker 2: Vitels test?

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Speaker 3: Well, except for Gelie because Julie is a man, but

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Speaker 3: up until Larry and Icon, yeah, grows up until the

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Speaker 3: very end of that conversation, I would say we've passed

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Speaker 3: with flying colors.

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Speaker 2: Good for us, I know.

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Speaker 3: And so toward the end of every episode, after our discussion,

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Speaker 3: after our heavy but also fun discourse.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's heavy, sometimes it's light.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we will determine whether or not the movie passes

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Speaker 3: the Bechdel test, and we will rate the movie on

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Speaker 3: our special rating system, which we will get to. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: other than that, we're so happy to be here on

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Speaker 3: how stuff works. We're happy you're joining us. And today's episode,

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Speaker 3: we are talking about breakfast of Tiffany's. Yes, and we

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Speaker 3: have a wonderful guest, so let's introduce her.

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Speaker 2: Yes. Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: She is the host of Bad with Money podcast and

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Speaker 3: she is the writer of I hate everyone, but you

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Speaker 3: Gaby done. Hi, Hi, thanks for being here.

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Speaker 4: Oh, thanks for having me. We're going older than we

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Speaker 4: usually go today.

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Speaker 2: We haven't done a lot of movies before nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 2: I would say, agree, yeah, but this is a big one.

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Speaker 2: This is a classic.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I did notice that you guys don't do a

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Speaker 4: lot of very old movies, which is why I suggested

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Speaker 4: this one.

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Speaker 3: I think probably one of the reasons we tend to

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Speaker 3: steer more toward modern and contemporary movies is that our

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Speaker 3: conversations are about how we influence media. Media influences us.

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Speaker 3: So today's world, not as many people are watching the

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Speaker 3: older movies anymore.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I don't know my grandmother. I'm a turner classic movies.

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Speaker 2: I used to be a TCM right addict.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Kim, it's really good.

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Speaker 3: But like, especially like with today's younger generation, who are

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Speaker 3: the most easily influenced, they're watching you know, Marvel stuff

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Speaker 3: like what's in theaters right now, and they're not a

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Speaker 3: lot of them unless they're like film buffs, aren't necessarily

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Speaker 3: going back to older movie.

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Speaker 4: Pretentious I mean. But also the thing is with this

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Speaker 4: one is that like young women have this aesthetic about it,

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Speaker 4: and they also like, have you know the poster of

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Speaker 4: Audrey Hepburn, and like they're aware of this as like

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Speaker 4: a classic that keeps keeps coming back kind of as

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Speaker 4: like a cool thing, right without possibly even understanding the

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Speaker 4: movie or having seen the movie.

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Speaker 2: I hope that we do more old movies. It's it's

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Speaker 2: for me. I just sort of assume that anything before

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty, even though I've seen a lot of them,

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Speaker 2: but like a lot of pre nineteen eighty is just

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Speaker 2: straight up a wat where you're just like, yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: not gonna do well. That's not gonna do well. And

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Speaker 2: most movies after nineteen eighty and also most movies that

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Speaker 2: come out now, but yes, in particular before that.

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Speaker 4: But sometimes they're really sneaky feminist. Yeah, like they get

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Speaker 4: away with a lot of stuff. Like I was just saying,

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Speaker 4: I love the movie Gentlemen before Blondes, and that is

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Speaker 4: like very they get away with so many things, like

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Speaker 4: Marilyn Monroe's characters they're both like so overtly sexual and

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Speaker 4: it's just like completely fine. So I think there's like

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Speaker 4: a lot of stuff that I don't know. It's not

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Speaker 4: all like oh this is terrible and Women Suck and

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Speaker 4: there were a lot of really great like leading parts. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: women back, And I don't know where we steered wrong, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say it's probably the well, this movie

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Speaker 3: came out in nineteen sixty one while the production Code

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Speaker 3: was still in full effect, so I would hazard to guess.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know a whole ton about this, but

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Speaker 3: the production code was an effect between nineteen thirty four

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Speaker 3: and I think nineteen sixty eight or nine, and this

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Speaker 3: was like all the censorship of like you could, like

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Speaker 3: there was no overt sexuality, you couldn't swear, there couldn't

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Speaker 3: be graphic violence, there couldn't be snaky. Yeah, there's like

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Speaker 3: tons of innuendos, and that gave birth to things like

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Speaker 3: screwball comedy and like a whole bunch of other things.

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Speaker 3: But like, yeah, because of the production Code and all

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Speaker 3: the censorship that came with that, I think reinforced more

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Speaker 3: like rigid gender roles. But they have think.

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Speaker 4: They I think like limitations made people a little more

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Speaker 4: I don't know them, made them a little more creative

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Speaker 4: about rather than just going for like the eases.

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Speaker 3: In some movies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 4: Just am always shocked by how overtly sexual. They're like

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Speaker 4: allowed to be with these kind of innuendos or like

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Speaker 4: having to write around these sort of things. Like I

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Speaker 4: was saying to Jamie too before this that I read

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Speaker 4: that they had the Paul character. They added more sexual

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Speaker 4: stuff for him in the script so that the sensors

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Speaker 4: would go after him and censor more of his things

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Speaker 4: and leave Holly golightly alone. Yeah, which is smart, Which

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Speaker 4: is like an interesting trick.

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Speaker 2: That's a cool misdirect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I Well, let's

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Speaker 2: talk about your history with the movie. When did you

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Speaker 2: first see the movie? And like, what is your history

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Speaker 2: with that up till now?

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Speaker 4: When I was in high school, I was like a

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Speaker 4: very pretentious asshole, and so I was kind of doing

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Speaker 4: this thing where I was like I like old music,

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Speaker 4: I like old movies. I'm wearing silk gloves to prom

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Speaker 4: whatever that kind of girl, And so I would start

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Speaker 4: watching these old movies because I just I don't know,

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Speaker 4: I was trying to be like a person who knew

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Speaker 4: about things that other kids at school didn't know about,

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Speaker 4: which you know, people loved obviously, like Super wanted to

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Speaker 4: be friends with me, and so like I took a

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Speaker 4: lot of pride in being like I know about all

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Speaker 4: this media that you don't even know about. So I

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Speaker 4: think I watched it just because I had seen all

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Speaker 4: these photos and I knew about like the picture of

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Speaker 4: her with the with the tiara andy, but I had

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Speaker 4: no idea what it was about. So I watched it

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Speaker 4: in high school because I watched a lot of like

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Speaker 4: Elvis Beach movies. I watched Hard Day's Night all the time.

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Speaker 4: I liked Marilyn Monroe's stuff.

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Speaker 2: This was like your era that you that you into,

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Speaker 2: like got in late fifties early sixtiest.

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Speaker 4: Like got into it. And then when I watched it,

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Speaker 4: I was like, wait a minute, they're both sex workers.

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Speaker 4: Like this is crazy, Like I this movie that is

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Speaker 4: built up as being this classy kind of like beautiful

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Speaker 4: thing that like an Audrey Hepburn especially who's viewed as

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Speaker 4: kind of like untouchable and like a porcelain doll.

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Speaker 2: Right, And it's like not explicitly stated in either in

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Speaker 2: the story or the movie, but it's so Like Truman Capoti,

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Speaker 2: I liked this phrase a lot when he was asked

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Speaker 2: if like A Letley was a sex worker, like years later,

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Speaker 2: he's like, I like to think of her as an

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Speaker 2: American geisha. Yeah, okay, okay, so you're saying it, but

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Speaker 2: you're not going to say, Hey, they.

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Speaker 4: Would in the in the press for the film at

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Speaker 4: the time, they were saying she was a party girl

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Speaker 4: or that she They also used the word cook a lot.

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Speaker 4: They were like, she's an eccentric kuk right, And it's like.

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Speaker 2: Okay, this is some really wild codd language we're pulling out.

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Speaker 2: But it's like, no one will actually say it, but

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Speaker 2: it is clearly what's you know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's it's not subtle. I mean he

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Speaker 4: gives her money for the quote unquote powder room, the

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Speaker 4: interior decorator quote unquote leaves Paul three hundred dollars like

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Speaker 4: on the nightstand. Like it's not subtle at all. So

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Speaker 4: then I was like, oh my god, this is the

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Speaker 4: same movie that people lawed as this classy sort of

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Speaker 4: thing that like women you know, dress up for as

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Speaker 4: Halloween like in you know what I mean. I put

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Speaker 4: the poster in their dorm and I was like, does

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Speaker 4: anybody else understand what this movie is about? And then

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Speaker 4: I loved it because I always loved sort of subversive stuff.

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Speaker 4: So I was like, this is great, and then I

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Speaker 4: would watch it every so often as like a you know,

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Speaker 4: to fall asleep, as like a soothing because now it's

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Speaker 4: kind of like this comfort movie, which a lot of

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Speaker 4: Audrey Hepburn's stuff is for me. Yeah, like just very comforting.

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Speaker 2: So it's been with you for a long time. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's sort of similarly. I had the poster before I

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Speaker 2: saw the movie. Yeah, I had the poster hanging in

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Speaker 2: my room. I think my mom gave it to me,

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Speaker 2: and I had it for like a full year before

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, yeah, I should probably watch this

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Speaker 2: because I love old movies. My era was I was

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Speaker 2: like wartime MGM movies. Okay, I had a stack of

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Speaker 2: tapes and like DVDs full of TCM Judy Garland movies,

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Speaker 2: like every Judy. I was a full on Judy person,

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Speaker 2: which is also one of the many reasons it's so

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Speaker 2: painful to watch Mickey Rooney in this movie, because he's

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Speaker 2: in all the Judy Garland movies. But so I finally

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Speaker 2: got around do watching Breakfast at Tiffany's and then read

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Speaker 2: the book as well, and I really really really loved

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Speaker 2: Truman Capoti, who did not like this movie. But I

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Speaker 2: think it's really nice. There was so much I haven't

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Speaker 2: seen it in at least two or three years. Like

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Speaker 2: it's sort of the thing that whenever it's on Netflix,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, this is a good background thing, but

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Speaker 2: I totally forgot about some of the very like moving,

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Speaker 2: sad things that happened in this movie. It's and I

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Speaker 2: think that that's true. There's just like this weird dissonance

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Speaker 2: with this movie where you remember what Audrey Hepburn looks like,

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Speaker 2: you remember sort of how she behave. Do you remember

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Speaker 2: that there's parties, and you remember there's a kiss in

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Speaker 2: the rain at the end and everything else. It's you're

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Speaker 2: sort of just like, oh, yeah, she's arrested. There's a

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Speaker 2: character named Sally Tomato.

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Speaker 4: There's like brother does I totally forgot her brother died? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: It's like an incredibly sad movie. And then it's recreated,

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Speaker 4: like I keep thinking of the scene of Gossip Girl

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Speaker 4: where they recreate it and Leeton Mester is her, and

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Speaker 4: then it's just played us this very romantic thing, right,

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Speaker 4: and people like don't know what the movie is about,

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Speaker 4: which I can see why Truman Capote would freaking hate that.

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Speaker 2: He hated well, we'll get into this in a bit,

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Speaker 2: but there's like the context that he wrote this story,

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Speaker 2: and also that in the short story, Paul is coded gay,

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Speaker 2: which obviously they completely scrap in this movie. But there's

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Speaker 2: you know, there's just like a lot of interesting stuff.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, this movie was with me since I think

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Speaker 2: high school as well. I have a really embarrassing MySpace

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Speaker 2: profile pick with the poster in the background and it's

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Speaker 2: black and white and it's really horrible. No, it's really bad,

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Speaker 2: but I don't know. And then watching it this time,

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Speaker 2: I don't dislike this movie. I still I still enjoyed it,

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Speaker 2: but there's just like a lot that stuck out to

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Speaker 2: me and just stuff I'd forgotten. Yeah, what about you.

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Speaker 3: I saw it for the first time in college during

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Speaker 3: that period of time because I was not to brag,

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Speaker 3: but I was majoring in film, so I was trying

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Speaker 3: to watch as many movies as I could, so I

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Speaker 3: would sometimes watch like two or three movies a day,

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Speaker 3: and then like from that period of time, my brain

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Speaker 3: didn't store anything about the story or like any of

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Speaker 3: important things about the movie. The only thing I would

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Speaker 3: remember about the movies I watched back then is whether

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Speaker 3: or not I liked them, and what I remembered about

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Speaker 3: Breakfast at Tiffany's is a very visceral hatred.

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Speaker 4: For this movie.

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Speaker 3: I hate this movie.

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Speaker 2: You hated it the first time you saw it, so yes,

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Speaker 2: oh wow, and you hate it now.

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Speaker 3: I hate it this movie.

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Speaker 4: Were you really left to have me on because of that?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 4: We like because it's fun.

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Speaker 3: I think it's fun a lot of times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we love talking about movies that we hate and

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Speaker 2: more fun.

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Speaker 3: I think we do our best, at least to try

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Speaker 3: to not let our personal feelings about the movie influence

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Speaker 3: our critical analysis of the portrayal of women in the movie. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So I do my best to keep that separate.

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Speaker 2: Anytime it's an old movie, Caitlin hates it. Anytime it's

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Speaker 2: a movie with aliens, I hate it. We all do our,

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Speaker 2: don't get me wrong.

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Speaker 3: I like a lot of old movies. This just isn't

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Speaker 3: an example of one of the ones that I like. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so I like Audrey Hepburn.

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Speaker 4: She kind of plays a similar type of woman a lot.

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Speaker 3: I think the only other thing I saw her in

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Speaker 3: was My Fair Lady.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: I liked that movie. Okay, and I had Red Pig

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Speaker 3: Million and I liked that. I haven't seen it for

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Speaker 3: over a decade, so I don't know if it holds

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Speaker 3: up at all. But the reason I don't like this

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Speaker 3: movie is I find the Holly Golightly character absolutely insufferable.

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Speaker 3: I didn't read the novella, sall, I'm not super familiar

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Speaker 3: with the context, but just there's barely a plot and

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Speaker 3: I hate the character. So sorry about that. But from

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Speaker 3: here on out, I'm going to be happy and nice anyway,

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Speaker 3: So I'll do the recap.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it.

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Speaker 3: We are introduced to Holligo lightly. She's living in New

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Speaker 3: York City. Wow city where dreams true, concrete jungle where

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Speaker 3: dreams are made up? Okay, so it's the early sixties. She's,

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Speaker 3: you know, living a life in New York City. Although

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Speaker 3: it's never explicitly stated, there are different innuendos and hints

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Speaker 3: to suggest that she is a sex worker, escort American geisha.

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Speaker 3: And early on she meets her new neighbor who moves in,

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Speaker 3: named Paul, but she keeps calling him Fred because he

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Speaker 3: looks like her brother and Fred.

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Speaker 2: And we know that it's a red flag because he

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Speaker 2: is a blonde male adult. It's still one of the

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Speaker 2: biggest human red flags you can encounter is an adult

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Speaker 2: blonde male, very dangerous. Do not interact with them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So Paul also seems to have a certain arrangement with

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Speaker 3: a woman named missus Phalanson.

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Speaker 2: I love missus Phalanson.

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Speaker 4: So Patricia Neil, she's amazing, so got her.

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Speaker 2: Husky voice, and then she she just she like appears

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Speaker 2: in a room and like, oh, she's going to fuck him. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like it's just such.

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Speaker 4: She's married to Roald Dahl.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know that. That's so cool.

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Speaker 4: Fact cool.

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Speaker 3: So they have an arrangement where he he's a writer,

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Speaker 3: but a struggling writer. He's written one book of nine

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Speaker 3: short stories. But other than that he needs some financial security,

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Speaker 3: which missus Falansen seems to provide. So Paul and Holly

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Speaker 3: are in similar careers and they relate. They yeah, so

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Speaker 3: they kind of They started to become friends early on,

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Speaker 3: Like Holly throws a party and she meets a few

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Speaker 3: different rich guys who get invited. One's named Jose Da

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Speaker 3: Silva Pereira and the other one is rust Patrolla. These

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Speaker 3: men eventually become two men that Holly tries to pursue

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Speaker 3: and like seduce so that they will marry her so

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Speaker 3: that she can be wealthy, a wealthy man. Then Holly's husband,

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Speaker 3: we find out that she was previously married when she

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Speaker 3: got married. Okay, so this is going on fourteen thirteen.

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Speaker 4: This is crazy. So she and her brother were poor,

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Speaker 4: their parents died. They were stealing turkey eggs from this

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Speaker 4: guy's yard. He was like full grown man. He was like,

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Speaker 4: oh my god, I'll adopt you. So she so he

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Speaker 4: adopts her and Fred and then when she gets to

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Speaker 4: be thirteen, he's like and he has kids from a

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Speaker 4: previous marriage. He's like, oh, I want to marry you.

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Speaker 4: So then he marries her and then they like are

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Speaker 4: raising the brother and the kids together.

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Speaker 2: What so weird. And then the way that the movie

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Speaker 2: presents him to me is also very bizarre, Like they

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Speaker 2: present him as like you understand why she doesn't go

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Speaker 2: back with him, obviously, but also he's presented it's like

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Speaker 2: this really like sympathetic.

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Speaker 4: Sweet, simple man, but.

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Speaker 2: He loves her, and you're just like, no, this guy's

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Speaker 2: like sucking criminal raise this saturatory rapist who shows up

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Speaker 2: with his big blue eyes. He's like, come back to

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Speaker 2: the farm, and you're just like.

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Speaker 4: No, she's in the right, but as played as that,

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Speaker 4: like he's in the right. And also she says like,

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Speaker 4: well I was I was only thirteen, so the marriage

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Speaker 4: wasn't old. Yeah, yeah, I bet it was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that tracks like there's and also Paul pissed me

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Speaker 2: up in that scene, and this is I think, in

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways, just revealing of the era. Where

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Speaker 2: Doc shows up. He's like, hey, that girl you have

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Speaker 2: a crush on I raped her and and like I

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Speaker 2: need to see her because I'm her husband. And Paul,

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Speaker 2: without checking, without giving Holly any manner of heads up,

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Speaker 2: just knocks on her door and he's like, hey, found

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Speaker 2: your rapist outside. Was like you fucking there. You just

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Speaker 2: sold her out so hard, And then Holly has to

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Speaker 2: deal with it. She does not get mad at Paul.

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Speaker 4: She's like Doc's just a sweet guy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I just like we we can be upset with Doc.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I just that scene was so like there's a few

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Speaker 2: different moments in the way that Paul treats Holly that

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Speaker 2: this story doesn't address that. It's really just like okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: at that time, if a man says I'm this woman's husband,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how the woman feels you bring him

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Speaker 2: to her right, and his like this person you just met,

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Speaker 2: his needs matter more than the person you're falling in

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Speaker 2: love with. Sure, right, right.

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Speaker 3: So that is a fun story beat, But ultimately he's

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Speaker 3: like trying to lure her back home with the promise

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Speaker 3: of like, hey, your brother Paul's getting out of.

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Speaker 4: The army, said Fred.

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Speaker 3: She's like, no, I can't go back, and.

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Speaker 2: Then he like sort of threatens. He's just like, well,

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Speaker 2: if you don't get on his Greyhound buzz with me,

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Speaker 2: maybe you'll never see Fred again.

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Speaker 4: It was like, what friend's an adult?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a man.

401
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Speaker 3: But so then she's like, oh, I have to marry

402
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Speaker 3: a rich guy so that I can bring Fred to

403
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Speaker 3: me in New York City so I can take care

404
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 3: of him again, this adult man who has been in

405
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Speaker 3: the army for presumably a few years.

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Speaker 4: She kind of insinuates that Fred is not smart.

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Speaker 2: Yes she's it's not stated, but yeah, she says at

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Speaker 2: the beginning that he's very slow and tall.

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Speaker 3: Maybe he's like John Malkovich of Mice and Men.

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Speaker 4: Yep, that's what that's the canon I'm going with.

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Speaker 3: So she's trying to seduce these different rich men. First,

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Speaker 3: she starts with Rusty Troller, but then she finds out

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Speaker 3: that he has married someone else, and then she starts

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Speaker 3: to go after Jose And meanwhile, like she's spending time

415
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Speaker 3: with Paul and they're really connecting and he's catching some

416
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,320
Speaker 3: feels for her. But she, you know, she doesn't know

417
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Speaker 3: she is or not because she doesn't like to be

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Speaker 3: tied down to anyone. She's she's a free as a bird.

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Speaker 2: There's a hat. It's a metaphor, right right.

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Speaker 4: The cat doesn't have a name, and the cat will

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Speaker 4: get a name when she feels like she can settle down, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But these different pursuits don't work out because she

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Speaker 3: gets arrested for her Oh wait, she I can't believe

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Speaker 3: I forgot to mention Sally Tomato.

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Speaker 2: Feminiss Sally Tomato.

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Speaker 3: He was like a known gangster. This like drug scandal

427
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 3: surfaces and because she was visiting him in prison. Yeah,

428
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Speaker 3: she gets I guess. Yeah, I don't really understand that hole.

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Speaker 4: I read about it, and in the write ups I read,

430
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Speaker 4: they believe that she really didn't know, like she really

431
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Speaker 4: thought it was a weather report. But I don't know

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Speaker 4: if she's that stupid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she's gotten through life pretty cleverly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But so then she she's like about to go

435
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Speaker 4: to Brazil to marry Jose, and then she gets arrested

436
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Speaker 4: for her involvement with Sally Tomato.

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Speaker 3: And then she is this before or after She finds

438
00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 3: out that her brother has died in a.

439
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 4: Before before before because Jose is still there. Doesn't Jose

440
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 4: leave after?

441
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 1: Oh?

442
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:05,640
Speaker 3: Yeah he leaves because.

443
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 4: She got arrested.

444
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, So she finds that out, and then

445
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 3: she trashes her room and then she is in a cab.

446
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 3: Paul has like picked her up from prison, and then

447
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,640
Speaker 3: he's just like, I love you, Holly. You need to

448
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,360
Speaker 3: get out of your cage that you built for yourself.

449
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,719
Speaker 3: You belong to me. He tells her that because he

450
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 3: loves her, that she belongs to him.

451
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, he won't let her go in the library and

452
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 2: he's like, good, he's got icecript. It's very romantic.

453
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,159
Speaker 3: And then she flings her own cat out of the cab.

454
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 2: Oh, she's like.

455
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:37,160
Speaker 3: Kind a home here.

456
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's also that one shot. This is like, I

457
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 2: think it's the scene we found out where Fred died,

458
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 2: where someone it's clear it's not Audrey. Hepburn throws a

459
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 2: cat at the wall and you see the cat lie

460
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 2: through the frame and hit the wall. I was like,

461
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 2: you can't do that, you kitchen, you.

462
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 4: Had lands on the window.

463
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you see. Like I'm like, you just imagine

464
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,120
Speaker 2: like a first dad being like, Okay, I'm just gonna

465
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 2: throw this cat really quick.

466
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

467
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 3: Also, cats do have eight nipples. This is cat facts

468
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 3: with Caitlin, Thank you so much.

469
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

470
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 3: So, basically, in the in the cab right at the

471
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 3: end of the movie, Paul is confessing his love for Holly.

472
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 3: She's like yeah, and then she's like, wait a minute,

473
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 3: He's right. I do need to let people in. I

474
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 3: need to let love into my life. I do need

475
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 3: to go back and get my cat. So she gets

476
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 3: out of the cab and they look for the cat together,

477
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 3: they find it, and then there's a kiss in the rain,

478
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,120
Speaker 3: and that is the end of the movie. Okay, let's

479
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 3: take a quick break and we'll be back in a moment.

480
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 3: All right, and we're back.

481
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 2: There's a lot that happens in this movie.

482
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of plot.

483
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's not on top of plot.

484
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 3: To me, it's like there's no like really distinct desire

485
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 3: that she's given she has a few like micro goals,

486
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 3: but I think that Fred.

487
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: And security or her two motivations, Like she wants to

488
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 2: be with her brother, and she also wants to like

489
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 2: live a comfortable life without having to commit to someone

490
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: at first and then later decides she does want to

491
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 2: commit to someone because of comfort.

492
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Paul wants to be a writer. They're both

493
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 4: kind of trying to get out of sex work.

494
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this just for context of the book, which

495
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: is very different. So Holly Golightly was pulled from two

496
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 2: different sources in Truman Capotte's life. One is his mom,

497
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: who literally did basically the Lula May thing where when

498
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 2: Truman Compotti was very young, his mom and this is

499
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 2: like they lived in Alabama, blah blah blah. Truman's mom

500
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,959
Speaker 2: boots out, She's like, actually, I'm going to go to

501
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 2: New York and like find us a cool life, changed

502
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: her name the whole, like the whole Holly Galately sort

503
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 2: except she had a kid, and then eventually move Truman

504
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,360
Speaker 2: Capoti to New York with her. It didn't work out.

505
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,439
Speaker 2: They ended up moving back to Alabama. But so his mom,

506
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: who he had like a weird relationship with his whole

507
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: life basically lived this sort of Holly Golightly adjacent lifestyle

508
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 2: for a while.

509
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 4: Wait are you telling me a gay creative had a

510
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 4: weird relationship with his mom.

511
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 2: I can't.

512
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 4: I can't believe it, but I get it better.

513
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: Okay, because Paul in the story is Holly's neighbor but

514
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: is not like an explicit love interest at all and

515
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 2: is coded gay or that is like what was speculated

516
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 2: by a lot of critics. So it's like Truman Capoti

517
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: wrote this novella where he as an adult, became friends

518
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: with his mom at his age and then they have

519
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: this like it's it's great, and then the other one

520
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: is a.

521
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 4: Neighbor of his right, a woman who lived downstairs from him.

522
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, So it's like interesting self fan fic in

523
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 2: some ways. And then he also pulled on like he

524
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: I guess he's like, I want to write a female

525
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 2: Gatsby character, which you can see a lot of in

526
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 2: Hollygolately as well as like, oh yeah, the self made.

527
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 4: Yeah is she a phony? The thing is she's a

528
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 4: real phony exactly. Yeah, she is a prototype manic pixie

529
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 4: dream girl.

530
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

531
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 4: The way she's introduced when he comes in and she's

532
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 4: just talking over him so manically and like doesn't even

533
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 4: find my shoes.

534
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah they're alligator.

535
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 4: And it's just very like, oh, of course I'm doing this,

536
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 4: like and he's sort of blown away by her, and

537
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 4: she's like, you know, just being super quirky.

538
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 2: Her being able to call a taxi, like her catching

539
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 2: her on the balcony, just improvising this beautiful tweet song

540
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 2: from the acoustic.

541
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 4: Guitar which is moon River, which was written for the movie.

542
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but I feel like that trope is I mean,

543
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 2: it's not even fully a recognized trope at this point,

544
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: but it's commented on more than other Manic pixies where

545
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: we are given the context of her background and like

546
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 2: why she puts on this persona to survive, and like

547
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: it it makes sense and is explained and commented on

548
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: enough that it almost doesn't bother me really too much.

549
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah it does movie.

550
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 4: Yeah it doesn't bother me that much either, especially because

551
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 4: nobody is like shaming her for her flaw or like

552
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 4: her being a sex worker is not even the problem,

553
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 4: do you know what I mean? And so that's that's

554
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 4: like a twist on it for me, where it's not

555
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 4: like someone had to save her necessarily. She had to figure,

556
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 4: she had to come to this on her own, that

557
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 4: she she doesn't want. I don't know. I guess Paul

558
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 4: does a lot of the work, but she like makes

559
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 4: the choice to get out of the cab, right.

560
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: I mean, she she has a lot of agency. The

561
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 2: ending rings where it was like my favorite part when

562
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 2: I was younger, Like it rings a little bit hollow

563
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: for me now because the way Paul behaves at the

564
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 2: end of the movie is so entitled.

565
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 4: And yeah, he's very entitled, not like you belong to me,

566
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 4: And she says people don't belong to each other, right,

567
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 4: and she's right.

568
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 2: Right, But then cut to five minutes later, she belongs

569
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: to him now and the cat you know, Yeah, it's

570
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: it's weird that we hear her say those lines that

571
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 2: like definitely stuck with me when I was younger, and

572
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: then minutes later she goes back on it entirely, or

573
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: the story has her go back on that entirely, and

574
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 2: now she's gonna be in, you know, a normal relationship

575
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: with Paul, which is apparently all she ever wanted, even

576
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 2: though that's never really what she said that she wanted.

577
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 3: Which is why, like, I don't know if she has

578
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 3: that much agency. She's not that active of a character,

579
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 3: like so she's like, yeah, she has a few different

580
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 3: goals and motivations, but she's the worst person.

581
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: Why didn't she like her? Why?

582
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 3: I have a list why you don't like her. She

583
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 3: treats people around her horribly, most notably her neighbor mister Yuniyoshi,

584
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 3: who will get into a whole horribly problematic oh boy

585
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 3: thing there. But there's a lot of people she doesn't

586
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 3: seem to care about. She uses people. She is superficial

587
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 3: and has terrible friends, and she only cares about status

588
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 3: and money. She is hyper materialistic. She never says anything

589
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 3: of substance. She only ever talks about like the rich

590
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 3: man she wants to marry. She's unaware of her surroundings,

591
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 3: and she accidentally lights a woman's head on fire. She

592
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 3: is calling people ugly and fat all the time. She

593
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 3: doesn't own any books. She's never been to a library before.

594
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 3: She thinks that South America is a country.

595
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: I disagree on a lot almost all she does think

596
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 2: that South America is okay.

597
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 4: I'll give you that.

598
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: I think that you know those things in a void

599
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: are issues, but it's like she's a she's a I

600
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: think she does have a clear motivation and a lot

601
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: of those qualities. Especially I would argue the materialistic stuff

602
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: is so rooted in that she has had to find

603
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: ways to survive for so long and and it's like,

604
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: it's not like these men with money that you know, like,

605
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: I guess you can make the argument that she has

606
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: manipulating them, but they're doing the same thing to her.

607
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: They don't give a fuck about her. They want, you know,

608
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: like a piece to bring to events like it is,

609
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: and like fitting in with her like background as a

610
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: sex worker, even though no one's gonna say sex sex worker,

611
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: Like it's transactional in a lot of ways. And I

612
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: don't know, like the whole thing with her loving Tiffany's

613
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: just seems like in her life, given what we know

614
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: of her, the only consistent thing you can count on

615
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: our material things, because she's been let down by so

616
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: many people, with the exception of her brother, who she

617
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: is genuinely fighting for, but everyone else in her life,

618
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 2: like who else can she point to is like, Oh,

619
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 2: here's a person that is worth more than material security.

620
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: And I don't think that there is any I mean,

621
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: like her husband, like, well, we already went through that

622
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: where you know, the statutory rape and the you know, it's.

623
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 4: Like what choice. She didn't have a choice but to

624
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 4: marry him. So it's really like because there was no

625
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 4: way out of that situation, right, It's similar like this

626
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 4: is like a downer, but my grandmother survived the Holocaust

627
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 4: and she's incredibly materialistic now, And like when I was younger,

628
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 4: I used to judge her for that, and now that

629
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 4: I'm older, I'm like, oh, of course, Like of course

630
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 4: she wants to surround herself with like finery. The background

631
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 4: on that is so dark that like she's just like

632
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 4: I want all the jewelry. I want all the stuff.

633
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 4: I deserve this right, Like and that completely makes sense

634
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 4: to me, Like that tracks as like motivation totally.

635
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, it makes I think we're given

636
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: the context for it to make sense. I get that

637
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: she's like not likable in a lot of ways, and

638
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: that definitely like the Manic Pixie stuff is like present

639
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: and like used as oh, it feels almost like a

640
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: short cut at some points to like get us from

641
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: point A to point B, especially in terms of like

642
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: why is Paul in love with her manic pixie behaviors,

643
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 2: so easy for it to be like and that's why, Yeah,

644
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: he lives here.

645
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 4: And also she's totally messed up and has a lot

646
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 4: of problems but flawlessly beautiful the whole time. Yes, yes,

647
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,719
Speaker 4: I would have like sleeping with makeup on, like like

648
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 4: she's like when she's like got the pigtails in the

649
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 4: sweater on and she's like, we have to go somewhere

650
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 4: where I can get in looking like this. I'm like,

651
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 4: but shut up, but joking, you look top ten most beautiful?

652
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 4: Are you kidding me?

653
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: Right now than any of us will ever look in

654
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: our entire lives.

655
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 4: Great thing, right, So there is a thing of like

656
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 4: romanticizing trauma and like making trauma beautiful, which is definitely

657
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 4: at play here.

658
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's there's multiple points where I think

659
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 2: it's like three different men in this movie call her

660
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: crazy and that is always like red flag. And there's

661
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: one of my favorite ones just of like you know,

662
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: like when you watch an old movie, there are just

663
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: like some clueless ways that it will interact with its

664
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: characters where Doc says to her, you're talking crazy, Lula

665
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: May and she says, don't call me that, and I'm

666
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: thinking crazy and then she's like, don't call me Lula May.

667
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: I guess that's the bigger issue here, because people call

668
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: her crazy all the time, and it's just something she

669
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 2: has to deal with.

670
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 4: She's a kook, she's an eccentric coup. Then what that was, Paul?

671
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?

672
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, I don't know. I was. I was like,

673
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: interesting choice that she's never been to a library before,

674
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: But then I forgot. I mean, there are so many

675
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: details of this movie I've forgotten. I was like, oh,

676
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: but she goes back later and she's like, oh, maybe

677
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: there is something to this.

678
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 4: Whole He's never been to Tiffany's. So true, everyone's never

679
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 4: been places.

680
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 3: Okay, I think it's much more common to have never

681
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: been to a Tiffany's than to never have been to

682
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 3: a library.

683
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: And the I kind of liked, I don't know the

684
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: whole Tiffany's and like stealing in that whole sequence is like,

685
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: this is a bit long. They like each other, but the.

686
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 4: Well do you know that New York City is the

687
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 4: third character? There's everyone I just want for the listeners

688
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 4: at home, Jamie and Caitlin both very much hated that.

689
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: No, he collapsed, did not like that at all. I

690
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,479
Speaker 2: need to be revived. There's that's something that happens when

691
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: we have male guests sometimes where male guests love to

692
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 2: say that locations are also characters, Like.

693
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for telling me that there's Oh

694
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 4: I mentioned in the beginning, I'm an old movies asshole, right,

695
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 4: like that was weird to everyone.

696
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: Carrina Longworth over here, Oh god, I wish there's I

697
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: know she's.

698
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 4: The I listened to that. I listened to that show

699
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 4: and it's real good.

700
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: It's really good. Oh yeah, the Tiffany thing. I liked

701
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: the comment that she makes inside of Tiffany's that like

702
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: just reminded me of being poor, of like, oh yeah,

703
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: I don't buy anything. I just like, you know, I

704
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: just like ster at nize things and it just like

705
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 2: calms me down. And that fits into the character very well.

706
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: Of just like the atmosphere of materialism is more comforting

707
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 2: than like other people.

708
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 4: And there's a lot of class stuff too that they

709
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 4: like get the Crackerjack ring engraved. Yeah, Like it's just

710
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 4: a lot of like, you know the way that the

711
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 4: sales guy looks at them, and his judgy and that

712
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 4: they like keep going with the bit.

713
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: And also in this world, it makes no sense that

714
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: he would look at these two gorgeous, well dressed people

715
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: and be like, seems sus it's like now they look

716
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: like they have money.

717
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, he's being a full on asshole.

718
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 3: I think we had a similar discussion on like the

719
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 3: Mulan Rouge episode, where if you really boil down this story,

720
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 3: it is sort of about a woman who's a sex

721
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 3: worker who maybe is trying to get out of this lifestyle.

722
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 3: How active she is in that pursuit is kind of

723
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 3: up for debate, but ultimately it's about a man who

724
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 3: comes in and sort of rescues her from it in

725
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 3: the sense that he's willing to provide her with actual love,

726
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 3: unlike the other men that she's interacting with in her profession.

727
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 3: So in that sense, this is a story like the

728
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 3: one that we saw in Mulan Rouge and like we

729
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 3: see in Pretty Woman, and just a lot of like, oh,

730
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 3: you're a sex worker, that must mean that you just

731
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 3: need love from a man.

732
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 4: I The counterpoint to that is that he is also

733
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 4: a sex worker, yes, and that he gives up missus

734
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 4: Phil he gives up her, and he gives up he

735
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 4: starts writing again because he's like, I need to make

736
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 4: money on my own, and he kind of also is

737
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 4: rescuing himself and she's rescuing him a little bit.

738
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 3: But it's not his story, it's her story. So I

739
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 3: feel like I wish she had more agency and more

740
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 3: she was more active in the pursuit of whatever she wants,

741
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 3: which again I would argue, we don't like again, some

742
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 3: things are sort of defined, but I think there could

743
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 3: be a much clearer definition of what she actually wants

744
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 3: out of life.

745
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 4: He's very entitled, but there is the thing that he

746
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 4: leaves her alone for a long time and then she

747
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 4: calls him to come back to the apartment.

748
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: Which is good. Yeah, I agree with both of you

749
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: on that. I think it's weird that, Like again, it's

750
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 2: like a Hollywood third act problem, where I think all

751
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 2: the work is done to make Holly a realized enough

752
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: character that the movie does not have to end the

753
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: way it does. She could act with way more agency

754
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: towards the end of the movie, and it would make

755
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 2: sense with her character because we've been given the contacts

756
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: in the background that she would have the motivation to

757
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: do it, but because of how these stories are structured,

758
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 2: she's not allowed to. There is one line that Paul

759
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: says when he's breaking things off with Missus Phelanson, where

760
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 2: he's that really, I was just like, oh, come on,

761
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 2: she can't help anyone, including herself. The thing is I

762
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: can help her, and that's a nice feeling for a change,

763
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: And so we know that he's going into it thinking

764
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: that he is rescuing her and like that is even

765
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: though we know that she has a lot to offer

766
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: him as well. He pretty explicitly articulates what his mindset is,

767
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 2: which is that like, I can help her, and that

768
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: makes me feel good, and I care about her, so

769
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to.

770
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 3: And also because I love her, then she belongs to.

771
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 2: Me, right, So that is like a third actissue I have.

772
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,959
Speaker 2: And then there's also like one the other thing where

773
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: they are both sex workers, right, and her motivation is

774
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: so deeply rooted and survival. We also see her, you know,

775
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: because she is a woman like treated worse like. At

776
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: the very beginning, the motivation for their first hang is

777
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: that mel blank fucking bugs Bunny is like chasing her

778
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: out of her own apartment to the point where she

779
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 2: has to leave out the way.

780
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, these men are getting violent and like there's an

781
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 4: implication that he's gonna rape her. Right, She's just like

782
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 4: another day at the office exactly.

783
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 2: She's like, he's nice when he doesn't drink, and you're

784
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: just like, yikes, okay, Yeah, so she has so so

785
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: much more shit even though they're both workers. It's clear

786
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 2: that she has to take more shit and Paul is

787
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: sort of given the luxury that I don't think she

788
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 2: really has in this movie of he has wanted to

789
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 2: provide her yes and is allowed to have a creative

790
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: pursuit and has the time to be able to do that,

791
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: and that doesn't seem as possible for Holly.

792
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 4: I also think the belong to each other thing is

793
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 4: interesting because it's phrased terribly, but what he means is

794
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 4: and what she ultimately takes away from it, and what

795
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 4: the cat provides is that.

796
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: What the cat provides my new podcast.

797
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 4: Is that put down roots. You have to put down roots,

798
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 4: you have to commit to something, you have to name

799
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 4: your cat. And that's why I like that she goes

800
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 4: after the cat when she gets out of the car,

801
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 4: because it's yes, belong to each other's phrased poorly, but

802
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 4: I do think he has a point in that, Like

803
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 4: she's she's always gonna be running, and as is this

804
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 4: doctor SEUs. Wherever you go, there you are. Uh oh,

805
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 4: I feel like that's a doctor Seuss thing, but maybe not.

806
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 4: But basically, like you you have to you're always gonna

807
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 4: be stuck with yourself, so she can't keep running. Like

808
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 4: in the cabs, she's like, well, I'm gonna go to

809
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 4: Brazil anyway. I'm just gonna try to go anyway. Yeah,

810
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 4: and he's like, you love New York, you love me,

811
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 4: you love this cat, like deal with it. So I

812
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 4: do think there is If she was like, actually, I

813
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 4: do want to be this free person and he was

814
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 4: coming from no evidence and no information, then I can

815
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 4: see it. But also it is hard to swallow a

816
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 4: guy being like, here's what you need, but it is

817
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 4: what she needs.

818
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 3: Well, but it's just it sucks that he has to

819
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 3: make her see that and she doesn't come to that

820
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: conclusion on her own, but.

821
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 4: She does when she gets out of the car because

822
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 4: she kind of just gone to Brazil and been like, nah,

823
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 4: fuck you dude.

824
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 3: Well, it's only because the long speech that he has delivered. Yeah,

825
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 3: like it was still like his actions and his words

826
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 3: poorly phrase though they may be that gets her to

827
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 3: realize what I mean.

828
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's why it would have been great if

829
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 4: jose had been waiting for her, Like if she had

830
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,479
Speaker 4: actually have a choice, then she would have made a choice.

831
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, right, right, Yeah. I don't hate aside from

832
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 3: his very horrible phrasing of saying that she belongs to him,

833
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 3: I don't hate the message that he's saying, which is

834
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 3: basically just like, you need to be emotionally vulnerable if

835
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 3: you ever want to connect with anyone and be happy,

836
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 3: which she realizes that it just yea. I wish that

837
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 3: she had come to that conclusion on her own, through

838
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 3: her own you know, journey, rather than to have him

839
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 3: very explicitly teach her that lesson.

840
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and also would have liked to see maybe a

841
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 4: bit more of her throwing that back at him and

842
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 4: being like, you do the same thing. You don't fucking write.

843
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 4: You say you're a writer, but you don't write. You're

844
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 4: kind of a prototype of a of a guy who's

845
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 4: just privileged in just being like I'm gonna I'm good looking,

846
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 4: so I'm gonna like let women, you know what I mean, Like,

847
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 4: she doesn't give it back to him.

848
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 3: She was a hard challenge him.

849
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, at all, as hard as anyone.

850
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: I wanted her to yell at him so much when

851
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: she was like, why did you bring Doc to my house?

852
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 2: But that's just I don't know why. That was the

853
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: part I most strongly objected to. But I was so

854
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: mad at he's so mad at me.

855
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 4: He ambushes her with her rabbit.

856
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 2: He's just like, yeah, you're gonna want to get on

857
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: a Greyhound bus with this guy. I'm like, what is

858
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 2: wrong with you?

859
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: Oh?

860
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 4: Yeah? Anyways, are there any the other women at the party?

861
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 4: Is that one boisterous woman that she hates, mag wild

862
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,919
Speaker 4: mag Wildwood, who she hates and thinks is a bore

863
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 4: and then who passes out and everyone just lets her

864
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:44,959
Speaker 4: hit the ground.

865
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's another reason she's a terrible person. Like she

866
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 3: knows that she's about to fall, and instead of Holly

867
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 3: helping her fellow woman, she goes timber.

868
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 2: Also, no one, no one like that clear out of

869
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 2: the way. It reminds me of that scene at the

870
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 2: beginning of School of Rock where Jack Black tries to

871
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: do the stage dive, but everyone's like he's a jerk

872
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 2: and they just let him hit the floor. Yeah.

873
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that she would be dead, you know what

874
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 4: I mean, And like that's off, like she hits her

875
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 4: head like it's not okay.

876
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 2: She would have at least broken her no, right face.

877
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 4: And then there's like other women at the party, irving

878
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 4: who's like the guy the OJ the agent is trying

879
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 4: to get with yes, oh yes, And then who's he's

880
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 4: kind of like chasing her around. And then there's one

881
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 4: Asian woman, yes, who does not does not speak.

882
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 2: Is I mean not the worst part of the way

883
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 2: Asian culture is portrayed in this movie, for sure, but

884
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 2: this reminded me a little bit of a few episodes

885
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: ago we did the Royal ten and bombs in just

886
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 2: like the use of Asian culture as set dressing correct

887
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 2: and characters that are never given any.

888
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, and she's dressed a very specific way. Yes, I

889
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 4: mean it was interesting that she was in clue in

890
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 4: the socialite scene. I thought that was interesting, but also

891
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 4: dressed a certain way and doesn't.

892
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 2: Talk, doesn't Yeah, so we just have no context of

893
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: like who she is, why she's there.

894
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 4: And then also there's like an interesting thing where with Jose.

895
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 4: It seems like his family is like very important politicians

896
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 4: in Brazil, and so there's like an implication that he

897
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 4: can't marry a white woman, which is very interesting too.

898
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 2: Oh I didn't catch that.

899
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 4: I mean that he's like bringing her around and she's like,

900
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 4: we're gonna get married with all his family there, and

901
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 4: it's like very clear that that's not gonna happen.

902
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure if that was because she was a

903
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 2: call girl. Oh.

904
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 4: I got the impression that like she's trying to, like

905
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 4: she was learning to cook and like trying to learn

906
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 4: Portuguese and like fit in with his family, and I

907
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 4: think there was like an implication that he can't marry

908
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 4: someone who's not part of like the Brazilian political family.

909
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: Or whatever that makes sense. I thought that they were

910
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 2: just like, hey, don't marry a sex worker.

911
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 4: But then she has a line well yeah, and then

912
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 4: she has a line where she says, oh, our kids

913
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 4: will have dark skin, but but green eyes. I was like, okay, okay,

914
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 4: x yeah. Well, I was like, what do you mean, Holly,

915
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 4: you don't have green eyes? Like what are you talk about?

916
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 4: Who here has green eyes? What are you talking about?

917
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:16,879
Speaker 2: From?

918
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's it's very weird. And then of course

919
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 4: Mickey Rooney.

920
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we should we just do it?

921
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, we gotta do it. I'd recommend an article that

922
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 3: was in the Wall Street Journal from a few years

923
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 3: ago by Jeff Yang, who talks about this role at length.

924
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 3: So this, this is something that's been talked about for years.

925
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 3: People have protested like different.

926
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: Screenings of this movie.

927
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, because of Mickey Rooney's portrayal of the character

928
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 3: of mister Unioshi, which is.

929
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: Of course two thousand and eight comes out with a

930
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: big old defense of ye doing it Earlier.

931
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 4: Earlier he had said he regretted it, he's sorry he

932
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 4: did it, he didn't know, blah blah blah, you did

933
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 4: this whole thing. And then he got older, I assume,

934
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 4: more senile, and then in two thousand and eight was like,

935
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 4: not fuck y'all.

936
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. I I never in defense of Mickey Ronny here,

937
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: but Mickey Ronnie the last couple of years of his life,

938
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 2: pretty much anything he says is not loucid. So it's

939
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 2: a bummer that he was even allowed to make a

940
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 2: statement about it, because I think he was like still

941
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: lucid when he was like Oh, that's incredibly offensive.

942
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 3: Well, I think he.

943
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 4: Believed, Yeah, he believed it was offensive, but I think

944
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 4: he got upset when screenings were canceled, and that's when

945
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 4: he was like went full defensive.

946
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 3: Like no one's ever complained about this role before that

947
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 3: they have.

948
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really he has never seen a computer before.

949
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 4: It's really bad. It is him straight up in yellow face.

950
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 4: He's got a terrible accent. He's treated terribly by hollygo lightly.

951
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 3: It's such a wee weird, horribly offensive character. It's like

952
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 3: one of the worst, like the most racist characters ever

953
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 3: committed to film.

954
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 4: For sure.

955
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 3: They put buck teeth in his mouth, they like taped

956
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 3: his eyes.

957
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really bad.

958
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: That really irresponsible thing. You can think of, every insensitive thing,

959
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 2: incredible attention to detail. It's just fucking crazy.

960
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 3: Because we did an episode recently also about Aliens, and

961
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 3: we talked about the character of Vesquez being a brown face.

962
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 3: At the very least, Again not to defend any you know,

963
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 3: whitewashing or anything like that, or any racist characters, but

964
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 3: at least that character of Vesquez is treated with respect

965
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 3: by the other characters and the movie itself. Yeah, this

966
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 3: is just like the worst example, and.

967
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 4: It also doesn't add anything to the story. Like I've tweeted,

968
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 4: I've tweeted about like loving Breakfast to Tifany's and I've

969
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 4: been like my kingdom for someone who will just cut

970
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 4: a version of the movie without his character at all,

971
00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 4: and the movie would make complete sense.

972
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, don't need it. There's a few different

973
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: elements of this movie. Just from a story perspective, you

974
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: don't need that character. You don't really need Sally Tomato,

975
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 2: Like there's not there's some there's certain things that just

976
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 2: like you're some weird fat trimming.

977
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 4: Sally Tomato comes into play because her arrest is what

978
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,720
Speaker 4: leads Jose to leave her. But it would make even

979
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 4: better and just as much sense if she decides on

980
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 4: her own to leave Jose and be with.

981
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 2: Paul, right she loves him.

982
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think the cat has is more of

983
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 3: an important part of the story plot wise than any

984
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 3: of those other.

985
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: Things, right, yes, so yeah, I checked that piece out.

986
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 2: And and then also it Warrant's saying that, you know, well,

987
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 2: this is one of the most egregious examples of a

988
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 2: yellow face character in film. It was happening, you know,

989
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 2: as recently as Emma Stone, so it is something that

990
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 2: still happens in film and will anyone ever learn ever?

991
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just watched Doctor Strange until this Winton's character

992
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 4: is supposed to be Asian as well.

993
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 3: It's like, what, there's so much whitewashing.

994
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: That's horrible.

995
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, especially I think like I think because it's yellow face,

996
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 4: people are willing to give it more of a pass

997
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 4: than like if he was straight up in black face,

998
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 4: people would be like, well, obviously that's not I mean,

999
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 4: some people would say it's bad, but because it's yellow face,

1000
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 4: people are like no, it's like okay, you know what

1001
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 4: I mean, Like they view it as not as bad

1002
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 4: when it very clearly is right. And similarly with aliens too,

1003
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 4: I think they're like, that's not so bad. Yeah it is.

1004
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 2: It is it is.

1005
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 4: It is so bad. Yeah, and it sucks because it's

1006
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 4: otherwise like a good, feel good movie. And then you're like, like,

1007
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 4: I really do please someone out there edit together the

1008
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,879
Speaker 4: movie without those scenes and it would be just as good, right.

1009
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 2: It's really it's really frustrating, And at the time I

1010
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: was trying to like figure out like, okay, what did

1011
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: this add to this movie at the time, and it's

1012
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 2: just like I think it was intended as like a

1013
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: slap sticky, like, oh, wouldn't it be funny, which is

1014
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:08,879
Speaker 2: just makes it even worse. And it's also totally at inconsistent.

1015
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 2: It's like a completely different it's taking place in a

1016
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: different movie. Right, It's not good. It's bad.

1017
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 3: Can you imagine if you just like lost your keys

1018
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 3: all the time and then you woke up your neighbor.

1019
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 4: If you have twenty six keys made to your apartment,

1020
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 4: yeah you can get in, But do you.

1021
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 3: Like consistently like buzz your neighbor and wake him up

1022
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 3: all the time, and then in order to like appease

1023
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 3: him for a moment, you say, yeah, you can take

1024
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 3: nude pictures of me.

1025
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 2: Sometimes I did that with my moment orn yesterday. No

1026
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 2: kind of we just just a moment in praise of

1027
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: Emily Eustace Phalans.

1028
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 4: Oh for sure.

1029
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: Patricia Neil, she just think that she is so cool

1030
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 2: and like for this time she's so confidently cheating on

1031
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 2: her husband that it is fun to watch. And then

1032
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: and then you see this breakup scene between her and Paul,

1033
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,240
Speaker 2: which I thought was like kind of sad but also

1034
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 2: kind of I don't know, I was surprised. Yeah, because

1035
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 2: we only see her three years.

1036
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 4: She doesn't break out. She's sort of very like practical

1037
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 4: minded about it.

1038
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 2: She's not like, yeah, but it's a little sad too,

1039
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 2: where it's like the way that she exerts her control

1040
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: over the situation with her and Paul is with her

1041
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 2: money and so when he makes the emotionally based decision

1042
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 2: of like I'm falling in love with someone, I need

1043
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: to break this off. I can't do this anymore, she's like, oh,

1044
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 2: how do I retain my power in the situation? And

1045
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 2: she tries to give him money, and that was just like,

1046
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1047
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,280
Speaker 4: My assumption was that she was I thought, I always

1048
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 4: think that she's giving him the thousand dollars check to

1049
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 4: go on a trip because she thinks that they will

1050
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 4: spend time together, realize they're not in love, and that

1051
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:53,439
Speaker 4: he'll come back.

1052
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: Oh okay.

1053
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 4: I always thought that she was like saying, like, go

1054
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 4: for it. Then, like I'll even pay for it because

1055
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 4: this isn't gonna work out, so.

1056
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:03,879
Speaker 3: You know what I mean exactly, Yeah, like.

1057
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 4: Enjoy your trip, realize you're both people, fall out of love,

1058
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 4: you'll come back, you know what I mean?

1059
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 2: And then he goes into his closet and he's like,

1060
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 2: find another fuck boy, goodbye.

1061
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 3: Hopefully he has the same length of arms as me,

1062
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 3: so you don't even have to go to a tailor.

1063
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 2: Starts toss out. It's great.

1064
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 3: So she'll be fine. She'll she'll find another young, strapping man.

1065
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're super hot. You want to be writers.

1066
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really like that character. She's a feminist icon.

1067
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 3: I love her calls Paul while her husband is in

1068
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 3: the room. This just like, Hey, my husband came home early. Gross,

1069
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 3: So I guess we can't see each other today. He's

1070
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 3: right there.

1071
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know why she's the

1072
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 2: icon of this movie for me.

1073
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 4: We don't know what the husband's deal is. She just

1074
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 4: like she's just like I want to pay for sex

1075
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 4: and I don't care.

1076
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 3: Maybe they're in an ethical non monogamy relationship.

1077
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why she is able to make the call

1078
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: while he's in the room. My god, I don't I

1079
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: guess I sort of just assume, like, well, it was

1080
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 2: a marriage in nineteen sixty one, so it probably was

1081
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 2: bad and she could not get out of it and

1082
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 2: being disgraced.

1083
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and likes likes her younger men.

1084
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, good for her. Yeah, she's also Yeah, she's like

1085
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 2: an older woman who's just I just I like her

1086
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 2: a lot.

1087
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, speaking of marriage and that, like the fact

1088
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 3: that Holly is trying to pursue two different men who

1089
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 3: are rich and she thinks that she's going to be

1090
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: able to marry into money. I get that that is

1091
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 3: maybe a logical next step for someone in her profession.

1092
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 3: Even so, the fact that she is trying to marry

1093
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 3: for money and not actually pursue like any of her

1094
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 3: other talents or anything like that, to just try to

1095
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 3: get a job and earn money for herself.

1096
00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 4: Where would she work.

1097
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 3: I don't know. You could go to work at Tiffany's not.

1098
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 4: Really Yeah, yeah, well she doesn't have a bumpkin. You know,

1099
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 4: she's a bumpkin. She doesn't really have a lot of

1100
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 4: other options.

1101
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 3: Like there have many options in something, but it's notety.

1102
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 4: One, it's not nineteen sixty one. It's hard. There's not

1103
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 4: a lot of avenues for women. You really only had

1104
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:22,240
Speaker 4: you had to get.

1105
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:27,399
Speaker 2: Married, right, It's like, well that's the sex work does

1106
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 2: seem like one of really the only routes for Holly

1107
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 2: to live the life that she wanted to live at

1108
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 2: that time, because it it seems like if her motivation,

1109
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 2: her ultimate motivation is she's waiting for her brother to

1110
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 2: get out of the army so that they can go

1111
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: off and live together. And she's trying to save so

1112
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 2: she doesn't want to be tied down because that means

1113
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 2: when Fred gets out of the army, then they can't

1114
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 2: go through with the plan. And so, yeah, she has

1115
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 2: so few options. She doesn't have an education, she's.

1116
00:53:56,160 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 4: Never been to a library, like yeah, yeah, and she

1117
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 4: is like coming from a trauma background and I don't

1118
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 4: don't think she has a lot of And honestly, like

1119
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 4: that was that was like a valid career path, Like

1120
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 4: marrying rich is like a valid career path to get

1121
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 4: out of shit.

1122
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,479
Speaker 3: I mean women used to go to college to meet

1123
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 3: their husbands so.

1124
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 4: That you can like try to move up in class,

1125
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 4: move up in your station. She's already pretty wild that

1126
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 4: she got out of she's in Alabama.

1127
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 2: Right, I don't know if she's from Texas that she

1128
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 2: got he's from Alabama.

1129
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, that she got out of there anyway to

1130
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 4: go in the sixties to be in New York.

1131
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's a miracle then she and like a

1132
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 2: testament to her own, you know, like cleverness and tenaciousness,

1133
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 2: that she is able to live the life she has,

1134
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 2: even though it is unsustainable and requires constant like hustling,

1135
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 2: et cetera. I don't know. I think I left this

1136
00:54:55,000 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 2: viewing with a better understanding of Holly. I still like that.

1137
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: I still like the movie. It's darker and sadder than

1138
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 2: I remember, and I think that's like a super common

1139
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 2: I know, way to.

1140
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 4: Forget sadder and darker than I think people who only

1141
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 4: look at it for the esthetic give it credit.

1142
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 2: For yeah, you know, and it goes without saying, but

1143
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 2: we should say it is a very white movie. It

1144
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 2: is the most prominent non white character is played by

1145
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: a white person. So there you go. That is just

1146
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,240
Speaker 2: a version of New York that only exists in fiction

1147
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: and is frustrating.

1148
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 3: To write and of, you know, as we come up

1149
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,720
Speaker 3: upon on almost every movie we encounter a very hetero movie.

1150
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 3: And I think it had the movie like adapted the

1151
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 3: character of Paul as I mean, but then we like.

1152
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,280
Speaker 4: Then you don't get the love story well, which.

1153
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 3: Is fine for me, but I also don't necessarily want

1154
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 3: like I mean, and this is you know, early sixties,

1155
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 3: so if there is a gay character, they would have

1156
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 3: to be coded gay because of the production code, like

1157
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,919
Speaker 3: you know, that wouldn't have flown. But I just, man,

1158
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:07,919
Speaker 3: I haven't read the book.

1159
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 4: Is he still fucking the wife even though he's gay,

1160
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 4: he's coded as gay?

1161
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,479
Speaker 2: I don't know. I haven't I didn't reread the book

1162
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 2: before this. I just went to read the He is

1163
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 2: definitely still like coded as a sex worker. So I

1164
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 2: think that, yeah, it's possible that he was having sex

1165
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 2: with Valenson because she is a character in the novella

1166
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 2: A double check. Yeah, how explicit because it seems like

1167
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:32,479
Speaker 2: even more so in the book than in the movie.

1168
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 2: There's I don't think it would say explicitly that he's

1169
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 2: fucking her. Yeah, right, so my guess is it would

1170
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 2: be more implications. Okay, yeah, interesting.

1171
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 4: It would have been a cool movie if if he

1172
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 4: was coded as gay and they just helped each other

1173
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 4: as friends. That's interesting.

1174
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 3: Or it would have been even cooler if he was

1175
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 3: just allowed to be explicitly gay and then they were just.

1176
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:57,839
Speaker 4: Well yeah, I'm talking about nineteen sixty right right now,

1177
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 4: you remake it. Now he's just like played who's he

1178
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:02,320
Speaker 4: played by Billy Eichner.

1179
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 2: Right, well, even in the book, he does say in

1180
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 2: the book that he's in love with Holly Golightly, but

1181
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 2: it is open interpretation of like what kind of love

1182
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: for he's bisexual? Right, we don't know.

1183
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 4: We don't know.

1184
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 2: Capote's dead. He cannot tell us. And on that note,

1185
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 2: let's take a quick break and we'll be back in

1186
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 2: a second. And here we are.

1187
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 3: We're back, We're back.

1188
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 2: Okay.

1189
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 3: Does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie?

1190
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 4: No, I mean, I'm trying to remember if if it

1191
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:40,919
Speaker 4: passes the Bechdel test, but we'll get there.

1192
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,919
Speaker 2: The only other female character that gets to speak, I'm

1193
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 2: pretty sure, is that female police officer when Holly's arrested.

1194
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 2: She goes nuck it off, and I was like, oh,

1195
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 2: a woman spoke a female police officer.

1196
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 4: Though, yes, hey, very progressive.

1197
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 2: Shere's no female detectives, but a female arresting officer.

1198
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 3: Yes, there's also a female librarian who keeps yelling at

1199
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 3: Holly because she's never been in a library before and

1200
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 3: doesn't know that she needs to keep her voice down.

1201
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 3: So yeah, let's talk about if the movie passes the

1202
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 3: Bechdel Tester or not. There are very few scenes where

1203
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 3: women interact.

1204
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 4: Mag Wildwood and Holly.

1205
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 3: At the party.

1206
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 4: Party.

1207
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 3: I had that conversation is not passing because they mentioned

1208
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 3: mister Unioshi and the two mens that the Mag brings

1209
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 3: to the party, Jose and Rusty So and.

1210
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 4: She's talking to them and Audrey Hepburn says, you're being

1211
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 4: a bore and that's kind of the only right.

1212
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 3: So I didn't have that scene as passing, Jamie, you

1213
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 3: said I.

1214
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 2: Had, Holly mag Darling, you're being a bore. Mag says,

1215
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 2: shut up, but that does.

1216
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 4: And then she talks to Emily Ustace whatever, what's her life?

1217
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 2: Hale.

1218
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 4: They talk in the beginning with Paul when they meet outside.

1219
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know that.

1220
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 3: Paul introduces them. Holly says how do you do? And

1221
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 3: missus Vallinson says how do you do? But doesn't look

1222
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 3: at her. She looks away because she hates her so much.

1223
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 4: Then he says, oh, this is my interior decorator.

1224
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But that's all they that's that. It's

1225
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 3: just like, how do you do? How do you do?

1226
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 3: We see a few women interacting at Holly's party, but

1227
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 3: we don't know any of their names. Holly does talk

1228
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 3: about that librarian, but we never learned her name, or

1229
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 3: the police officer or the police officer. Yeah, and I

1230
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 3: don't think she and the police officer are actually interactive,

1231
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 3: more like a side by side like yeah, so yeah,

1232
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 3: I guess there are a couple two line exchanges that

1233
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 3: technically pass the Bechdel test, but.

1234
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 2: Given the movie, it should do a lot better.

1235
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 4: You would think, yeah, yeah, and I think Mickey Rooney's

1236
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 4: character should just decimate like that's like negative one thousand points. Yeah, yeah,

1237
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 4: so any points you've earned, Yeah, it's a negative one thousand.

1238
00:59:57,760 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1239
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 3: Well, shall we the movie on our Nipples scale for

1240
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 3: new listeners. We have a special rating scale that we've

1241
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 3: devised to judge the movies that we've talked about.

1242
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 2: Yes, it is called the nipple scale. Get used to

1243
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 2: that phrase. You'll be hearing it a lot. It is

1244
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: where Kayla, myself and our guest I'll rate the movie

1245
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 2: we just discussed on a scale of zero to five

1246
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 2: nipples based on how the movie treats its female characters,

1247
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 2: not on how much you like the movie. The best

1248
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 2: part of the Nipple scale is you get to describe

1249
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 2: them in fact, you have to to describe them, and

1250
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 2: you get to give them two characters in the movie,

1251
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 2: or Alfa Malina if you want to right, Yep.

1252
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 3: So that's our nipple scale for me. I think I'm

1253
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 3: gonna give it one nipple. I think it's interesting to

1254
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 3: explore a story about a woman who's a sex worker

1255
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 3: who falls in love with another sex worker. I think

1256
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 3: that this movie, though, and it could be due to

1257
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 3: some restrictions of the era and the production code and

1258
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 3: things like that, but I think it doesn't do a

1259
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 3: whole lot to explore all the interesting facets of that premise.

1260
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 3: Number one. Number two. I think that Holly go Lightly

1261
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 3: is a bad person who is careless and who mistreats people,

1262
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 3: and she's like a prototype of the very annoying manic

1263
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 3: pixie dreamgirl trope that we've come across several times and

1264
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 3: that I don't especially care for. I think that her

1265
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 3: desires and her motivations are arguably not that well defined,

1266
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 3: and everything we do know about her and what she

1267
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 3: wants is tied to a man in some way. She

1268
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 3: wants to marry a rich man so that she can

1269
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 3: take care of her brother, so at least that motivation

1270
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 3: isn't entirely selfish, but men are still the source of

1271
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 3: her desires, her motivations, and pretty much all she does

1272
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 3: on screen is talk about men. And then also after

1273
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 3: her brother dies, she just goes right back to wanting

1274
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 3: to marry a rich dude. So it feels like just

1275
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 3: kind of inconsistent and sort of like negates the motivations

1276
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 3: that had been established for her earlier. Then finally it

1277
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 3: takes a different man, Paul, to basically fix her and

1278
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 3: to inspire her character arc. Also, and we didn't really

1279
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 3: talk about this that much, but her relationships to the

1280
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 3: other women in the movie are generally like very petty,

1281
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 3: very caddy. It's like women feeling though they have to

1282
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 3: compete against each other, women not treating each other with

1283
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 3: kindness and respect. So it just kind of reinforces those

1284
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 3: stereotypes of like women are always fighting, women are caddy

1285
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 3: towards each other. And I understand that this is a

1286
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 3: movie that came out many decades ago. Things were very

1287
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 3: different back then. Historical context was very different back then,

1288
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 3: but I still find that there's not that much redeemable

1289
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 3: about the character of Holly, about the movie itself. I

1290
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,439
Speaker 3: just think that it could have gone in much more

1291
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 3: interesting directions, explored her experience in a more interesting way,

1292
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 3: had it so that everything that she does and wants

1293
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 3: to do isn't tied to men in some way. So

1294
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 3: one nipple from me and I will give it to

1295
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 3: missus Fallonson because she is pretty dope femino Psyiconvalencin.

1296
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 2: Yes, I man, I hope that I'm not being too generous.

1297
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 2: I'm wanting to give it a two or two and

1298
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 2: a half. Yeah, I'm gonna go with it doesn't matter.

1299
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 2: The thing is that's a metric and it doesn't matter.

1300
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 2: But I'm so stressed sor right now, I'm gonna give

1301
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 2: it two and a half. I mean, it goes without

1302
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 2: saying that the way this movie treats race, especially in

1303
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 2: regards to Mickey Rooney's character, is abhorrent and terrible and

1304
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 2: bad and there's no excuse for it. I agree that

1305
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 2: this movie should have it cut entirely, and it wouldn't

1306
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 2: have much of a difference on the movie. Yeah, but

1307
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 2: as it pertains to the treatment of women specifically, I

1308
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 2: do think that Holly golightly, I think she does have

1309
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 2: a motivation and I think that she it is clearly.

1310
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 2: She comes by her fault in a way that is

1311
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 2: clearly explained by the movie and is grounded, and she

1312
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 2: loses points for the manic pixie dream girl stuff, and

1313
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 2: the movie loses points for how it sort of botches

1314
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 2: the third act. I think in a lot of ways,

1315
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 2: in the way that the message of being emotionally vulnerable

1316
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 2: is communicated as ownership to a man, and you know,

1317
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 2: the last fifteen minutes. I have a lot of issues

1318
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 2: of how her characters treated, but in the way that

1319
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 2: she's built and the portrayal of sex work, even though

1320
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 2: it can't be explicitly stated in movies at all, at

1321
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 2: this point, she's treated with respect. I think she's called

1322
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 2: out for faults in ways that for the most part,

1323
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 2: with the exception of her being called crazy, with the

1324
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 2: exception of her being chased out of her own apartment,

1325
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:55,200
Speaker 2: with the exception of her romantic interest bringing her rapist

1326
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 2: to her door, with the exception of those things, she

1327
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 2: she is for the most part treated as if not

1328
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 2: with respect, because she's not necessarily treat with respect. But

1329
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 2: I do think she is treated as like a capable

1330
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 2: character who for most of the movie has agency in

1331
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 2: how she lives her life given the restraints that are

1332
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 2: put on her by the world and the era.

1333
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'm I'm ignoring like the time period

1334
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 3: and the socioeconomic cultural situation of the early sixties.

1335
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that there's a lot of stuff that

1336
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 2: she doesn't do here, But at the time, I think

1337
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 2: it's like it implied just because this is the world

1338
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 2: that it came out, and that she couldn't do that

1339
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 2: and that wasn't an option for her really at all.

1340
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna give it two and a half nipples.

1341
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 2: I do like Holly, and I love missus Phalinson, and

1342
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 2: so I'm gonna give a nip to miss Phalenson, a

1343
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 2: nip to Holly, and then I'm gonna toss half a

1344
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:00,120
Speaker 2: nip to the one who goes knock it up. I

1345
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 2: liked her a lot.

1346
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 4: I agree with everything Jamie said. You put it really well,

1347
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 4: and I just think it's so cool. In a lot

1348
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 4: of the old movies that I really love, I'm constantly

1349
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 4: surprised by the way women are portrayed and that they

1350
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 4: are just speaking purely in terms of being sexual beings,

1351
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 4: Like the way that they're portrayed as like being allowed

1352
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 4: to be that way, And I guess I had this

1353
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 4: idea in my mind of women kind of only being

1354
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 4: these like fifties or early sixties kind of like housewives,

1355
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 4: And so I'm constantly or even like that pre marital

1356
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 4: sex might be seen as bad, but like that, there's

1357
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 4: so many characters and especially typified by hollygood lightly but

1358
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 4: just in a lot of these older movies, there's so

1359
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 4: many female characters whose motivations are sex or who like

1360
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,919
Speaker 4: are having sex. And when I started watching old movies,

1361
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 4: I was really surprised by that because it's today seen

1362
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 4: as such a thing. Like women like movies where women

1363
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 4: are sexual are like given a standing ovation, And I'm like,

1364
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 4: but we've been doing this. I don't know why, like

1365
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:07,920
Speaker 4: we have this. I think people haven't watched a lot

1366
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:11,040
Speaker 4: of these old movies, so they see it a certain way,

1367
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 4: and they think that this movie is about like an

1368
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 4: upscale woman in a tiara who just buys things from Tiffany's,

1369
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:19,440
Speaker 4: and like, they haven't watched it, so they don't know

1370
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 4: that it's actually about like class and trauma and like

1371
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 4: sex work and you know, all these things that.

1372
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 2: And that she doesn't buy anything from Tiffany.

1373
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 4: She does.

1374
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 2: No purchase.

1375
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 4: She doesn't even eat breakfast inside you guys. Although fun fact,

1376
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 4: this is like the first time Tiffany's allowed anyone to

1377
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 4: film inside of Tiffany's.

1378
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:39,480
Speaker 2: Oh no kidding, that's cool.

1379
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 4: So yeah, So I just and I and that we

1380
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:46,479
Speaker 4: never we almost never see male sex workers treated with

1381
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 4: respect or like, you know, male sex workers who are

1382
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,880
Speaker 4: with women, although I guess that show hung but like.

1383
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 2: Who's in that show to miss Jane?

1384
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 4: Wow, if I got that right, that would be incredible.

1385
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 4: And so I just think it's surprising, like maybe I'm

1386
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 4: giving it too maybe I'm gonna give it three nipples,

1387
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 4: and maybe I'm giving it too many nipples because I

1388
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:13,800
Speaker 4: was just so shocked by how chill the movie was

1389
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 4: about so many things. Yeah, and for its era, and

1390
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 4: how like misunderstood it is by like anyone who's ever

1391
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 4: had a poster of it in their dorm room.

1392
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:27,080
Speaker 2: It is Thomas Jane by the.

1393
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 4: Way, Wow, guys, take me on your trivia team. I

1394
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:34,679
Speaker 4: know so much useless stuff and so and I think

1395
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 4: it's trying as hard as it can for its time.

1396
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 4: I will give it negative five thousand nipples for Mickey Rooney. Yes,

1397
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 4: and I can't even begin to imagine what they were thinking.

1398
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 4: I guess they thought it was it was a comic

1399
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 4: relief even racism aside, which it never is. But it

1400
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 4: tonally does not fit with the rest of the movie.

1401
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 4: It takes so away from the movie. Even if even

1402
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 4: if the role was played by an Asian actor, even

1403
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 4: if the role was toned down by fifty percent, it

1404
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 4: would still tonally not fit in with the rest of the.

1405
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:11,799
Speaker 3: Movie for sure.

1406
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 4: As a like screenwriter, it doesn't make any sense to me,

1407
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:16,920
Speaker 4: There's no point to it.

1408
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 3: The party scene also seems totally inconsistent because there's some

1409
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 3: like slapsticky physical humor there.

1410
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1411
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 3: Just I was like, what is this supposed to be funny?

1412
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 3: Like what I think this.

1413
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,080
Speaker 2: Movie was supposed to be like a rom COMI thing

1414
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 2: of its time, But the rom and the calm feels

1415
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:36,679
Speaker 2: so separate. But it's just yeah, there's no there's no overlap.

1416
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:39,760
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, So some of the characters feel very grounded,

1417
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:41,599
Speaker 4: and then some of the characters are in a different

1418
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:46,799
Speaker 4: movie right, and that is either poor screenwriting or poor

1419
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 4: directing or.

1420
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 2: A fun mix. Who are you giving your nipples too?

1421
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 4: Two to Failstein Failingstein, She rocks one to all you

1422
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 4: go lightly, I guess the nipple only go to women.

1423
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:04,679
Speaker 2: They can go to anywhere you want to, men, animals,

1424
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,320
Speaker 2: people who aren't even in the movie objects.

1425
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 4: I want to give one to the cat idea, I

1426
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:13,200
Speaker 4: want one to the cat. Absolutely, the cat is wonderful.

1427
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 4: It did its own stunts.

1428
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 3: That was That was such good acting by that cat.

1429
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:21,599
Speaker 4: That cat ruled. I mean the scene where the scene

1430
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 4: where the cat's playing with the cigarette that I mean,

1431
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 4: that cat was trained so well. I loved it.

1432
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,960
Speaker 2: The cat was wet and didn't freak out care. Yeah,

1433
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 2: you're just like, what is what is this? Cat's a

1434
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:35,520
Speaker 2: star acharcter a cacter.

1435
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, cat actor.

1436
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 3: Anyway, all right, well, Gabby, thank you so much.

1437
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:42,759
Speaker 2: For being here.

1438
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me, and thanks for doing a

1439
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:47,719
Speaker 4: movie that you fucking hate.

1440
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:51,680
Speaker 3: You're so welcome. I'm happy to make the sacrifice for

1441
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 3: this podcast and for you, Gabby.

1442
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:57,559
Speaker 4: Oh I just I wanted to try to get like

1443
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:01,080
Speaker 4: something super old in here. Yeah, just for your your

1444
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 4: fans that are like seventy to eighty, like really your

1445
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 4: demo which.

1446
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 3: We have so many of us. Yeah, I'm sure shout

1447
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:11,599
Speaker 3: out to our older fans. Thank you so much for listening. Gabby,

1448
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 3: where can people follow you online? Do you have anything

1449
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 3: you'd like to plug?

1450
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:14,679
Speaker 2: Oh? Sure.

1451
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:17,679
Speaker 4: My podcast Bad with Money is currently on season three.

1452
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 4: It's out now and it's about money, but it's tries

1453
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 4: not to be stressful, just trying to break the taboo. Guys,

1454
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:30,800
Speaker 4: thank you. And I'm on Twitter at Gabby Done and

1455
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 4: on Instagram at Gabby Road because I don't understand branding. Yeah,

1456
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:38,360
Speaker 4: and then I had a book come out last year

1457
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:40,840
Speaker 4: called I Hate Everyone But You and it was a

1458
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,120
Speaker 4: New York Times bestseller and it's a ya novel but

1459
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 4: also like a novel regular and you can get that

1460
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 4: wherever books are sold.

1461
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:51,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, not at Tiffany's though, they don't sell books.

1462
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:52,799
Speaker 4: Not at tiffany.

1463
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:54,200
Speaker 3: You can go to a lot, you can go the

1464
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 3: library though, but you should buy. You should buy Gabby's book.

1465
01:11:57,200 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 4: Get to Tiffany's, get it engraved.

1466
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:03,760
Speaker 2: Yes, you can find us. We are now in the

1467
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:07,679
Speaker 2: house stuff Works Network. Wow exciting. We're network girls, We're

1468
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 2: little bitches. But you can also still find us on

1469
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 2: our Matreon, Patreon dot com slash Bechdelcast. Five bucks a

1470
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 2: month gets you two extra episodes. Wow.

1471
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:21,960
Speaker 3: Amazing for our new listeners. You can follow us on

1472
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:26,040
Speaker 3: social media at Bechdel Cast on both Twitter and Instagram,

1473
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 3: and we also have a Facebook page just called the

1474
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 3: Bechdel Cast.

1475
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:33,639
Speaker 2: Nothing Tricky, Nothing Tricky. You can find me on Twitter

1476
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:35,760
Speaker 2: dot com at Jamie Loftis Help.

1477
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 3: And you can find me at Caitlin Dorante. And then

1478
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 3: for our existing listeners, thanks for always being here, Thanks

1479
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:45,080
Speaker 3: for all of your support.

1480
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 4: Thank you guys for doing this show. It's so fun.

1481
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:50,719
Speaker 2: I love it, you love doing it, and we're glad

1482
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:52,839
Speaker 2: you could be here on your upgrade.

1483
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:56,839
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. And I said, what about breakfast

1484
01:12:56,880 --> 01:12:57,600
Speaker 3: at Tiffany's?

1485
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:03,280
Speaker 2: And I said, I think I remember the film, and

1486
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 2: as I recall, we both kind of liked it.

1487
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 3: Well, you recall correctly because I did not like it.

1488
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:13,040
Speaker 3: But that is still one thing we've got that passed

1489
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 3: the Victal test.

1490
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:16,680
Speaker 2: Yay, good eye