1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: This is Cobalt Barbinagree and you're listening to Switched on 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: the podcast brought to you by bloomberg Enif heavy industry 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: faces one of the toughest paths to net zero, yet 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: decarbonization activity is picking up across major markets. New commitments 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: reached almost fifteen billion dollars in the middle of twenty 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: twenty five, but progress is uneven and policy is playing 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: an outsized role in determining who advances and who falls behind. 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: In the US, funding cuts have slowed momentum. The government 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: has clawed back three billion dollars from the Industrial Demonstrations program, 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: and several hydrogen hubs have lost major support. Meanwhile, Europe, 11 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: Australia and parts of Asia are pushing ahead from the 12 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: EU's carbon border Adjustment mechanism to new national retrofit funds 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: and expanding industrial carbon markets in China, India and Vietnam. 14 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: At the same time, investment is concentrating heavily on steel, 15 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: with ninety four percent of industrial decarbonization spending in the 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: second and third quarters of twenty twenty five flowing into 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: electric arc furnace projects and early hydrogen ready steel pathways. 18 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: Other sectors are testing recycled and buyer based feedstocks, electrified heat, 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: and new financing approaches designed to bring early projects to market. 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: But with progress accelerating in some regions and stalling in others, 21 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: is heavy industry finally turning a corner on its decarbonization path. 22 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: On today's show, I'm joined by Alan tom Abraham, BNF's 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: head of Sustainable Materials, to walk through his team's note 24 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: industrial decarbonization market outlook for the second half of twenty 25 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: twenty five. BNF clients can find this, along with other 26 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: sustainable materials research, by heading to BNF go on the 27 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg terminal or visiting BNF dot com to learn more 28 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: about how BNF approaches strategic research on the energy transition, 29 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: including developments in commodity markets, sector trends, and the technologies 30 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: shaping the future. You can find more information at BNF 31 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: dot com. So let's dive in and explore how industrial 32 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: decarbonization is shifting in twenty twenty five. Alan, welcome to 33 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: the show. 34 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: Thank you Cobert, and it's a pleasure to be here, 35 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 2: and let's talk about industrial decarganization. 36 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: Yes, so, how has the year gone for the world 37 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: of industry? On their journey to decarbonize. 38 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: It's been a bit of sweet year. There's been some 39 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: places where we've seen things move forward, there's been some 40 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: places where I've seen things not move as quickly as 41 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 2: we hope. But overall, if you have just to look 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: at numbers, this year, we are almost seeing investments bounce 43 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 2: back from what we saw a year back. So twenty 44 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: twenty four was one year where in industrial investments actually 45 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 2: started to show a major decline compared to twenty twenty three. 46 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 2: But when we look at the investments for the first 47 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 2: nine months of twenty twenty five, we are starting to 48 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: see that the investment levels have equalled the total that 49 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: we saw in the whole of twenty twenty four. So 50 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: that's promising. So it means that we are starting to 51 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 2: see companies cut out the noise on all the negativity 52 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: that's happening with respect to progress and emissions commitments, et cetera, 53 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: and actually committing investments towards industrial decarbonization projects. So how 54 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: much was it. I think we've tracked about twenty two 55 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 2: billion dollars overall being committed for clean industrial projects in 56 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 2: the first nine months of twenty twenty five, and that's 57 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: almost as comparable to the investments that we've tracked for 58 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: the whole year of twenty twenty four. 59 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: So that's an optimistic signal. It looks like when we 60 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: publish our figures for total investment in the energy transition 61 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: early next year, it sounds like the industry sector will 62 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: be up on the prior year. So that's good news. 63 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: And as ever, I mean, this part of the economy 64 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: is particularly reliant on policy, with most of these technologies 65 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: being really quite expensive, high carbon prices, very substantial green premiums. 66 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: What has the policy environment been like? What are the 67 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: big shifts that have occurred in twenty twenty five. 68 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, policy is being where we've seen the most back 69 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: and forth when it comes to momentum. In the last 70 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: one year. To start off the year, we had a 71 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: big change in administration in the US, which also came 72 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 2: with a lot of headwinds for several clean industry projects. 73 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: As the Trump administration started reviewing some of the programs 74 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: that the previous administrations have put forward and started reviewing 75 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: the funding under some of these programs. A lot of 76 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 2: the clean industrial projects that one funding through grants or 77 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: other incentives started facing issues with respect to Grand cancelations 78 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: or sometimes the infrastructure around which some of these technologies 79 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: were to be deployed were also pulled back in terms 80 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: of support. So the biggest one therefore is the change 81 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: in direction in the US policy environment towards decombonization investments. 82 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 2: And in May, the US Department of Energy canceled close 83 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: to three point eight billion dollars in grants for industrial 84 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: decarbonization and carbon capture projects, of which about three billion 85 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: dollars was from the Industrial Demonstrations Program. And that program 86 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: is especially important because it was one of the biggest 87 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,559 Speaker 2: programs six billion dollars in overall total allocation for first 88 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: of a kind industrial decarbonization projects and looking at technologies 89 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: like hydrogen, carbon capture, electrification, a mix of all of these, 90 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: and about three billion dollars out of that total six 91 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 2: billion dollars was cut. It effected first of a kind 92 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 2: projects in the cement industry, in the chemicals industry, glass sectors, 93 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 2: so a bunch of different initial projects were now faced 94 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: with no funding from the government as a result, which 95 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: has resulted in also some of these projects not moving forward. 96 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: So has the landscape in the US just sort of 97 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: ground to a halt as a pipeline of industry decombonization 98 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: projects just dried. 99 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: Up at this moment. We have to say, yes, there 100 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: are still some projects in some pockets which have the 101 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: right combination of a customer that is willing to pay 102 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: a premium versus a technology that is not that expensive 103 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 2: as some of the first of a kind technologies. So 104 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: you have certain projects like these cycling, for example, in 105 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 2: the aluminum industry, where the emissions benefits are real clear, 106 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 2: the economic benefits are also there, which means some of 107 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: these projects still move ahead. But for first of all 108 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,239 Speaker 2: kind projects in the US using technologies like carbon capture 109 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 2: and hydrogen, it's definitely come to a hard Yeah. 110 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: So the US particularly challenging this year, not unexpected considering 111 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: the change in posture of the Trump administration. Where else 112 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: has had a tough year and where have there been 113 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: bright spots on the policy front. 114 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: In terms of a tough year. It's still too early 115 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 2: to say, but there have been some uncertainty around how 116 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: quickly decognization investments in Canada again North American market, especially 117 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 2: because there is a new government that's coming in. They're 118 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: trying to think about new ways to help industries invest 119 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: in these decogonization solutions and also stay competitive. So that 120 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: discussion is still going on and there's a little bit 121 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 2: of uncertainty on some of these projects, but there are 122 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: certainly big bright spots that we saw and that comes 123 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: down to Europe and AHAs we titled the report Advances 124 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 2: in Europe. In February, the European Commission actually came out 125 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 2: with the Clean Industrial Deal, which is Europe's attempt to 126 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: ensure European industry stays competitive while it's recognizing. So it's 127 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 2: about one hundred billion euros that the EU is planning 128 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 2: to divert into clean industry and clean tech manufacturing projects 129 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: over the next ten or fifteen to twenty years. So 130 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: that's a massive amount of funding that we've tracked in 131 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: Europe during this period. We're also starting to see a 132 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: lot of momentum in Australia. We've tracked about five billion 133 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: dollars US dollars in new initiatives that were announced in 134 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: Australia in just this year, and that's again huge amount 135 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: of money that the government is trying to support industrial 136 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: projects steel aluminum, as well as broader you know, green 137 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: iron and other manufacturing ambitions within Australia. Beyond the one 138 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: hundred billion euro incentives that I mentioned that are also 139 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: specific countries that are coming up with their own incentives. 140 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 2: In Europe, Germany, for example, has come up with their 141 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: own program to support industrial deg organization through a carbon 142 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: contracts with difference system. Close to five to six billion 143 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: dollars in new allocations the government and the European Union 144 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: Commission has approved for this program. It's again a very 145 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: impactful program trying to think about how to decarbnize industries 146 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: by giving long term financial support and not just upfront 147 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: subsidies to some of these projects. So very innovative mechanism 148 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 2: to help some of these projects take off the ground. 149 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: And finally, I would say there's also some very green 150 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: spots when it comes to carbon market policies, especially in Asia. 151 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: We have China, the largest editor from an industrial point 152 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: of view, trying to think about including industrial sectors like steel, 153 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 2: cement and aluminum within the national carbon market there and 154 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 2: increasing their exposure to the carbon prices within the market. 155 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 2: We also have initial steps from markets like India, Vietnam, Japan, 156 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 2: all looking to bring industrial sectors within the carbon markets. 157 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 2: The carbon markets in all of these regions are all 158 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 2: in very early stages, so that it still needs a 159 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: lot of time for carbon prices to be meaningful to 160 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: kickstart a lot of decobonization initiatives, But it's a good 161 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 2: first step to see that these governments are starting to 162 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: bring industrial sectors within the carbon markets in these regions. 163 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: So it paves the way for future carbon pricing which 164 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: could be bit levels high enough to incentivize actual decombonization. 165 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: So these carbon prices increasing, I mean the European Union 166 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: has a carbon price now over one hundred US dollars 167 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: a time, pretty substantial price signal? Is that incentivizing European 168 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: industry to decarbonize and to push forward with some of 169 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: these heavy industry decarbinization projects. Why do they need another 170 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: hundred billion dollar fund to do so? 171 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: At this point? Even though the emissions trading system carbon 172 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: prices are reaching the levels that you just mentioned, a 173 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: lot of the industrial emissions receive a lot of free 174 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 2: allocation of emission sallences, which means they're not exposed to 175 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 2: the carbon prices even though the carbon prices have that 176 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: high and as a result, a lot of the initial 177 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: investment that is currently being made into industrial decorganization projects 178 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 2: is driven by supportive incentives that the European governments have 179 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: put in but as carbon prices are expected to go out, 180 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: because the European Union wants to face out these free 181 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: allocation of emissions elevances by around twenty thirty four or 182 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: twenty thirty five and align it with the carbon border 183 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 2: regusment mechanism, the SEABAM system that the European Union is 184 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: trying to install into the European ecosystem. So with that progressing, 185 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 2: companies are looking at a full exposure to the carbon 186 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: prices by around twenty thirty five, and carbon prices are 187 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: expected to also significantly increase those two hundred and eighty 188 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 2: euros per tonue of C two as per vnears thinking 189 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: by twenty thirty five, which means that's also one of 190 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: the reasons why companies want to invest today so that 191 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 2: they're prepared as carbon prices ramp up by around twenty 192 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: thirty five. And there's also a lot of incentives that 193 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: governments are offering for these companies to invest in these 194 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: green technologies. 195 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: And with all of these new funding mechanisms being put 196 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: into how much should our audience look at that as 197 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: a signal of confidence when there's been a pretty patchy 198 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: track record a lot of these projects having been awarded 199 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: funding and then ending up either not meeting the conditions 200 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: or having to revoke the funding because they're canceling the projects. 201 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: So how much of a signal can we really take 202 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: from this? 203 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a very good question. I think with 204 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 2: all these innovative projects in the initial days, there's going 205 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: to be a mix of projects that move forward and 206 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 2: a mix of projects that eventually realize the economic stone 207 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 2: pencil out, and that's just going to happen. Some of 208 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 2: these projects would definitely end up in a place where 209 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 2: when you think about the infrastructure that is required for 210 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: many of these technologies, Like if you're building a hydrogen project, 211 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 2: you need a hydrogen pipeline and the electoralizer system and 212 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: all of the other associated infrastructure, and same is the 213 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 2: case with carbon capture, for example, you need to have 214 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: the carbon dioxide pipelines and the storage and the networks 215 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 2: associated with it. So it's a combination of infrastructure and 216 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: the facilities that are using or switching to these technologies 217 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 2: that needs to transition at the same time, and that 218 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 2: becomes a complex transition so you will end up seeing 219 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 2: some places where the infrastructure is not catching up to 220 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 2: the ambitions of some of the projects when it comes 221 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: to their process transitions, and in other cases you might 222 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: also see where the individual companies don't find the economic 223 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: incentives to invest in these technologies because the infrastructure is 224 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 2: also not ready. So it's going to be a balancing act. 225 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 2: But it still shows the momentum. And these are all 226 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: actual commitments that are usually awarded, which means it's available, 227 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 2: but we have to prepare for the fact that some 228 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: of these projects might still drop off as it comes 229 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 2: closer to completion. 230 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: So in twenty twenty five, where has the investment been flowing. 231 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: What are the sectors which have received the most money 232 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: and had the most momentum this year. 233 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 2: So in twenty twenty five, i previously mentioned it's about 234 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: twenty two billion dollars that we've tracked for clean industrial projects. 235 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 2: Eighty percent of that funding has gone into the iron 236 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 2: and steel industry, and majority of that funding has gone 237 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: into building ELECTRICOC furnaces. So ELECTRICOC furnaces is a fairly 238 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: mature technology, largely used to recycle steel, and it's been 239 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: used for decades. It's a significant chunk of global steel production, 240 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 2: close to thirty percent of global steel production today. So 241 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: because it's mature, it's largely economic. When it comes to 242 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 2: thinking about it as a low emissions pathway to produce steel, 243 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: it is the cheapest pathway today to produce low emission steel, 244 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: and it's technologically mature. A lot of the investments are 245 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 2: being directed towards that. Within the iron steel industry, you're 246 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 2: also seeing some hydrogen ready or hydrogen based furnaces being built, 247 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 2: but those are early stage, but there is some investment 248 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: that's also flowing into into that technology for the iron 249 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: steel industry. There again, the split is closed to seventy 250 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 2: percent for electricoc furnaces and close to thirty percent for 251 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 2: hydrogen based furnaces. In this last nine months. Outside of 252 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: high and steel, it's roughly equally split between the cement industry, 253 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: the chemicals industry, aluminum industry, as well as circular economy 254 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 2: investments which includes recycling of plastics or the use of 255 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 2: bioplastics for example. 256 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: Great so let's dive in sector bisector actually to tease 257 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: that out a bit more so on and steel sector. 258 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: I'm just looking at one of the colorful charts in 259 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: this report a lovely sort of pie chart which shows, 260 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, electric arc furnaces eafs attracting the most 261 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: funding and project developments in the last year, and then 262 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: direct reduction coupled with an electric arc furnace. Now, how 263 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: much of that direct reduction is natural gas fuel versus 264 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: hydrogen fueld? 265 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 2: Today there are very few projects. The Stegra project that 266 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: is being built in Sweden is probably the only major 267 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 2: project that is trying to use clean hydrogen from day 268 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: one of its operation. Almost all of the other direct 269 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: reduction projects that are being built for steel are initially 270 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 2: planning to use natural gas as the fuel and the 271 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: reducing agent in the in the process, and then all 272 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 2: of them eventually plan to switch to green hydrogen or 273 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: other clean hydrogen sources when it becomes available at an 274 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 2: affordable price, and affordability becomes the biggest determinant of when 275 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: hydrogen starts to play a role within that direct reduction reaction. 276 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: But there are still benefits of using natural gas because 277 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: on an average emissions perspective, direct reduction using natural gas 278 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: as a fuel in feedstock is still able to reduce 279 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: emissions by close to forty fifty percent compared to a 280 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: blast furnace. So there's a huge amount of emissions benefits 281 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: still if we start building electricalc furnaces and direct reduction 282 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: furnaces compared to glast furnaces. 283 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, there's really significant questions now 284 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: around the future viability of hydrogen, you know, around whether 285 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: the industry really will be able to scale up to 286 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: provide feed stock fuel at the quantities. And of course 287 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: the price required for usage in heavy industry processes has 288 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: that affected the plans of steel makers. They still seem 289 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: to be putting pretty substantial bets on hydrogen in the 290 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: direct reduction processes. Have we seen a bit of a 291 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: shift more towards carbon capture and storage or other roots 292 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: in the steel industry or do they still have confidence 293 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: that hydrogen it's going to happen and deliver. 294 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: We haven't seen a huge shift towards carbon capture or 295 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: other electrification solutions just yet, but there has also been 296 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: a little bit of a slowdown when it comes to 297 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: the push on hydrogen. A lot of companies, I can 298 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: take a couple of examples, For example, Asilomital in Europe 299 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: had huge ambitions of using hydrogen and direct reduction in 300 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: order to produce steel. But what the company is now 301 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 2: trying to do is build the electricalc furnaces that were 302 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: planned as part of many of these projects. For example 303 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: in Spain. In France, you had a lot of integrated 304 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: direct reduction and electricog furnaces that were being proposed by 305 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: as Limito. Now the company has decided to just build 306 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 2: the electricog furnace first and then hold off on the 307 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: investments into the direct reduction furnace until they have a 308 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: visibility of when hydrogen prices or other natural gas prices 309 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 2: for example, will make it viable to make that investment. 310 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 2: So we haven't seen companies entirely changed technology priorities at 311 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 2: this point. We haven't seen a huge shift towards CCS, 312 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: we haven't seen a huge shift towards other emerging technologies. 313 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: But we are still seeing some initial signs of companies 314 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 2: slowing down on the hydrogen part of it until they 315 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 2: have more visibility on where hydrogen prices land. 316 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: And that feels like that will probably take quite a 317 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: few years to resolve. So where else, what are the 318 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: geographies I'm making progress in the green steel space. 319 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where both Asia and the Middle East 320 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: would start to play even when I mentioned some of 321 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 2: the hydrogen based projects within Europa facing some of the 322 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 2: these delays and also decisions where they've delayed some of 323 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 2: the hydrogen based investments. We are starting to see some 324 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 2: initial pilot projects demonstration projects coming up in China by 325 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 2: large steel producers like Boo Steel and Steel, et cetera, 326 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 2: who are trialing the use of hydrogen in their own 327 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: furnaces and technologies in order to understand the technology better 328 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 2: and also come up with large projects. They're not yet 329 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 2: large commercial scale projects, but they're on the pathway to 330 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 2: do that if they have the right circumstances. We're also 331 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 2: starting to see momentum build in some of the other 332 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 2: AS markets, like Japan. For example, just this year, we've 333 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 2: had Nippon Steel and Jfee Steel announced massive ELECTRICCOC furness 334 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 2: projects in Japan, and the investments that they've they've allocated 335 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 2: for these projects runs into many billion dollars. For example, 336 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 2: Nippon Steel has allocated close to four point four billion 337 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 2: dollars for one of the new ELECTRICCARC furnaces that they're 338 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 2: building in their q Shue works, and you also have 339 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: Jfee Steel announcing close to two point two billion dollars 340 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 2: for another electric ARC furnace that they're building, so massive 341 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: investments that's flowing into Japan and the ELECTRICALG furnaces that 342 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 2: these companies are building there. We also had good signs 343 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: from Vietnam, for example, where companies like Schwantian Group have 344 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: announced again close to three point seven three point eight 345 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 2: billion dollars to develop a direct reduction and ELECTRICOG furnace 346 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 2: integrated project and also ELECTRICALC furness projects separately. So again 347 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: some momentum there. And in the Middle East, some of 348 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 2: the largest direct reduction plans that were proposed over the 349 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 2: last few years have now started awarding their EPC contracts, 350 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 2: their construction contacts and equipment supply contracts to the various 351 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: technology providers. Again, a lot of these projects are probably 352 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 2: not going to use hydrogen from day one, They're going 353 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 2: to rely on natural gas, but they're all building these 354 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: projects and that's all positive signs that you're seeing. When 355 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 2: it comes to momentum outside of. 356 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: Europe, and how is the demand side shaping out? 357 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, demand is always the tricky question. We've been tracking 358 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 2: an increase in the number of agreements that companies have 359 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 2: signed for off taking clean steel or low emission steel. 360 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: At the end of July, we've talked about one hundred 361 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 2: and ninety one different deals or contracts that companies have 362 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: signed to buy low emission steal. But the challenge here 363 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 2: is only about a third of that is actually binding contracts. 364 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 2: That's still better than like some of the other sectors 365 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: for example, like you know hydrogen, but you know a 366 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: third of the deals is the only one we can 367 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: have some level of certainty of these deals going ahead. 368 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 2: And the remaining two thirds are often letters of intent 369 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 2: or memorandums of understanding, which then needs to be developed 370 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: into more firm contracts over the next five or ten years. 371 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: Right, So they're much more speculative then. 372 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 2: Yes, and also depends on the maturity. A lot of 373 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 2: these letters of intent and memorandums of understanding, for example, 374 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: are initial steps where they're evaluating when these g in 375 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: steel projects will come online, and when they have more 376 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 2: certainty on these g in steel projects coming online, it 377 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: then converts into more firm contracts. 378 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: And so what's motivating the off take is that are 379 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: signing binding contracts. Are there particular sectors or applications where 380 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: this is where where the demand is being supported by customers, 381 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: by end customers who were actually, you know, the products 382 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: that are being made or how are the stars aligning there? 383 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, At this point, a lot of the binding contracts 384 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 2: are being signed by automakers with very serious and string 385 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 2: and sustainability goals. So automakers are increasingly looking at their 386 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: Score three emissions as part of their fuel related emissions 387 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 2: as well as their electric vehicle transition strategy. And when 388 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 2: you look at your Scope three emissions, the emissions embitted 389 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: in the steel and the aluminum that you use when 390 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 2: you manufacture vehicles becomes a significant part of your overall emissions. 391 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 2: And it's those companies that have very strict Score three 392 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 2: emissions reduction goals that are first signing these binding offtake eglements. 393 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: And often for many of these automakers, the increase in 394 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: price from the use of green steel at the final product, 395 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 2: which is for a car, is not as substantial. Maybe 396 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 2: it increases the cost of a car by one or 397 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 2: two percent overall, which is still palatable for many of 398 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: the customers. For these automakers, we're also starting to see 399 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 2: some of the renewable energy companies, especially wind turbine manufacturers 400 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: and wind power companies starting to sign clean steel offt 401 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 2: take agreements. Again, for them, as a group scope three emissions, 402 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: steel becomes a very very important part of the overall 403 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 2: emissions and as a result, they're signing these clean steel 404 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 2: offt take agreements with companies in order to reduce the 405 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: emissions from their supply chain as well. 406 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: And so how much more are they willing to pay 407 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: or what are the sort of premiums that they're needing 408 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: to pay in order to get grant steel. 409 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 2: That's the part of the market where there is the 410 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: least transparency At this point. Companies are very very rarely 411 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 2: disclosing what premiums they're paying for these contracts. And sometimes 412 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 2: these contracts, especially for automakers, are long term contracts seven years, 413 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 2: sometimes six years, ten years, depending on the type of agreement, 414 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 2: and the premiums can also vary over a period of time. 415 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: But typically for some of the first projects that are 416 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 2: coming up in Europe, we are seeing premiums in the 417 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 2: range of twin t to thirty percent being talked about 418 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 2: for one hundred percent net zero steel, and that's a 419 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 2: promising sign. But there are also a lot of green 420 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: steel products which are using the electrococ furness route or 421 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 2: sometimes using approaches like a mass balance approach, where you 422 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 2: have assigned a certain portion of the emissions reduction from 423 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 2: a particular facility to a small batch of steel to 424 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: claim that steel is net zero. We typically don't see 425 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 2: very high price premiums being associated with steel that is 426 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 2: assigned a net zero tag using a mass balance approach, 427 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: for example. So there is also a differentiation between whether 428 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 2: the steel that is made is actually green steel or 429 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 2: whether it's an accounting process that is being used to 430 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 2: come up with the green steel tag. 431 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: So then if we pivot now we talk about the 432 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: petrochemical sector. It's have less investment this year, but it 433 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: is still one of the big four emitting sectors steel, petcams, aluminium, 434 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: and cement, the big four that I always like to 435 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: think about, how is that sector progressing in its stick 436 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: carbonization activities this year. 437 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: Among the four sectors that you just mentioned, the petrochemicals 438 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 2: industry is probably the one that is the most behind 439 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 2: when it comes to thinking about decarbonizing the primary production process. 440 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 2: There's still a lot of investment that goes into recycling projects, 441 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: plastics recycling projects globally and in the last one year. 442 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 2: Most of the investments that we've seen is also in 443 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: the recycling space or in the use of alternative feedstocks 444 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 2: like bio based feedstocks. So there are companies like Somtomo 445 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 2: or other examples that have tried to come up with 446 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: new projects that can use bio based feedstock to produce plastics. 447 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: So is this where the bioplastics that you may be 448 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: using in your cutlery or other disposable items are coming from? 449 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: There? Again, it becomes a little bit more of a 450 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: nuanced discussion. The category of bioplastics typically includes biodegradable plastics 451 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: and bioplastics. So biodegradable plastics often originate from either bio 452 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 2: based materials or sometimes even feedstock like coal, which is 453 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 2: then used to produce a certain kind of chemical or 454 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 2: polymer which can disintegrate in the right environment into the 455 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: soil or into the right composting environment. So they are 456 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 2: not typically a one is to one replacement for what 457 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 2: we see in the plastics industry for other applications, so 458 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 2: maybe the couplery that we see is definitely going to 459 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: be the biodegradable kind than the typical plastics that you 460 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: produce from a petrochemical production plant. So the petrochemical production plant, 461 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: bio based feedstock is also increasing, especially the use of 462 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 2: feedstock like bio NAFTA and sometimes the use of biomethanol 463 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,479 Speaker 2: or bioethanol to produce chemicals directly. So that's the rout 464 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 2: that many of these companies are starting to use. 465 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: Right, So that's where the chemical building blocks for the 466 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: plastic are coming from, rather than from oil products coming 467 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: from a bio based feed stock. But slow progress on 468 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: that front in recycling, has there been an uptick? I mean, 469 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: we saw that the Global Plastics Treaty failed to get 470 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: struck this year. Disappointing outcome for addressing a plastic waste 471 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: crisis is that has there been a slow down a 472 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: subsequent slow down then in the industry's investments in plastic recycling. 473 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: Yes, there has been a slowdown this year when it 474 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 2: comes to investments into recycling. If you look at like 475 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: the total investments for both recycling and bioplastics, it's totaled 476 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 2: about one point eight billion dollars in twenty twenty five, 477 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 2: and about a majority of that came from recycling, but 478 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 2: it's still small compared to about five to six billion 479 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 2: dollars that we've previously tracked in twenty twenty three or 480 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. So it's very likely that the full 481 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 2: year investments for recycling, especially plastic recycling, is going to 482 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 2: be well below what we've seen historically, and it comes 483 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 2: down to a lot of factors. The better chemicals industry 484 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 2: overall is facing some tough times because of an increasing 485 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: overcapacity globally, which means there's a lot more production that's 486 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: happening than the demand in many of these major markets, 487 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 2: and as a result, there's low margins. Companies are less 488 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 2: open to investing in new facilities, even if it's decarbonization 489 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 2: or primary production at this point. So there's a bit 490 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 2: of slowdown overall in the petro chemicals industry, which is 491 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 2: also reflecting in the recycling sector. 492 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: So now if we pivot to looking at the aluminium sector, 493 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: and apologies for the Americans in the audience, I'm going 494 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: to refer to this as aluminium and not aluminum aluminium. 495 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: How is how is that sector progressing? Has there been 496 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: has there been a good investment in the pipeline of 497 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: projects to decalbinize this year. 498 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 2: In the first three quarters, we've tracked about just under 499 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 2: two gigawards of clean power procurement from aluminium companies in 500 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: different parts of the world, and that compares to about 501 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: three gigawards of solar wind and batteries and the contracts 502 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 2: associated with that that was procured in twenty twenty four. 503 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,719 Speaker 2: So aluminum companies are definitely increasing the momentum when it 504 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 2: comes to signing clean power purchase agreements in different parts 505 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: of the world. And it's been at this range of 506 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 2: about two gig awards to three giga awards for the 507 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 2: last three to four years now since twenty twenty two, 508 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 2: which shows huge momentum from these companies. To do this, 509 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: we also have to understand that a lot of the 510 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 2: aluminum smelters are already placed in markets with huge access 511 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: to clean power sources like hydro. For example, some of 512 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 2: the largest aluminum smelters in Europe are located in the 513 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 2: Nordic region with access to cheap hydro, and say it's 514 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 2: the case in North America where it's located in markets 515 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 2: like Canada with cheap access to hydro. Even in China. 516 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: Over the last many years, a lot of the aluminum 517 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 2: smelters have relocated themselves to regions with cheap access to 518 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 2: hydro power in order to reduce their emissions. So beyond 519 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 2: just the clean power procurement that's happening in the aluminum industry, 520 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: a lot of the aluminum smelters are also already operating 521 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: on clean power in many of these markets. 522 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: So the additional procurement of clean power of wind solar 523 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: batteries for primary aluminium smelting. Is that being driven by 524 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: a desire or incentives for these smelters to decarbonized or 525 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: is it just that these are the law all of 526 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: us cost forms of electricity supply now, so they're re 527 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: contracting with new new sources. 528 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a combination of two. So we do have 529 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: companies that have the biggest ambitions to reduce emissions driving 530 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: that big increase in the uptake of corporate renewable energy 531 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 2: purchase agreements. But at the same time, it's also coming 532 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 2: down to economics because in many of these markets, solar 533 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 2: and wind is cheaper than electricity that many of these 534 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: companies can purchase from the grid, and that becomes another 535 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: big economic rational for aluminum companies to invest in these 536 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 2: nubal energy purchase agreements. 537 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: Great, so that there was a deep dive into three 538 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: of the key sectors that the last one is cement, 539 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: which isn't covered in this particular piece of research. But 540 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: how is the developments in the cement sector this year. 541 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have a separate chapter on cemen, but 542 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 2: we are tracking what's happening with respect to investment commitments 543 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 2: and government commitments for the cement industry and we are 544 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: starting to see momentum pick up. The first CCS project, 545 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: commercial scale SCIS project at a cement plant, was operational 546 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: earlier this year in Norway, which is built by Heidelberg. 547 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 2: It captures about four in to thousand tons of carbon 548 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 2: dioxide from the cement manufacturing process to produce low emission 549 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: cement and it's a market project and several other projects 550 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: are being proposed in Europe, especially in the next four 551 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 2: to five years to build these first of a kind 552 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 2: clean cement production projects using carbon capture and storage. The 553 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 2: primary ways in which cement manufacturers are today looking at 554 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 2: reducing emissions to a net zero or a very low 555 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: emissions state is through the use of carbon capture and storage, 556 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: and in markets where there is the right incentives like 557 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: EU for example, we're starting to see that momentum pickup. 558 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: We are also saying cement companies substitute more of the clinker, 559 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: which is the cementitious material, which is the binder that 560 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 2: gives the strength to construction in concrete. And what cement 561 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 2: companies are doing is you can reduce the amount of 562 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 2: clinker in cement to some extent and substitute it with 563 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 2: other materials called supplementary cementitious materials. Usually we use materials 564 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 2: like slag or the waste from glast furnaces or sometimes 565 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: fly ash from cold power plants as an additional material 566 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 2: and substitute clinker out of cement. And if you reduce 567 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: the amount of clinker, which is the most emissions intensive 568 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: material within cement and concrete, you reduce the overall emissions 569 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: foo print of cement as well. So a lot of 570 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: companies are trying to introduce new materials and increase the 571 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: blending of these new materials within cement to reduce emissions. 572 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 2: So those are the two biggest ways in which companies 573 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 2: are doing it, along with the use of a lot 574 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 2: of bio energy and waste in the cement furnaces that 575 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,959 Speaker 2: a lot of companies are using to reduce the overall 576 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 2: fuel related emissions. 577 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: Okay, so some progress all around on industries quest to decarbonize, 578 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: but still early days. The most important question really for 579 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: the outlook for this sector really is when are these 580 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: technologies going to reach a point of commercial competitiveness. When 581 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: are they going to be scaled up enough, proven enough, 582 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: and down the cost curve to really start to take 583 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: off and to accelerate in their deployment and their emissions 584 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: reduction potential. I know that's a very difficult question to answer, 585 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: but what is your best guess of when that sort 586 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: of inflection point may be and the industry moves beyond 587 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: this sort of really early incubation stage where it's very 588 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: dependent on large sums of government policy with early stage 589 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: projects which are risky and it's hard to make the 590 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: matter work to where it starts to look more like 591 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: a wind or solar. 592 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very good question, and it's also the 593 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 2: question that my team spends the most time on because 594 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 2: it's also the most complex question. What we've come to 595 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: realize is that some of these technologies like carbon capture 596 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: and hydrogen are probably going to be more expensive. We 597 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 2: used to produce materials like steelo cement or petrochemicals over 598 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: the next fifteen to twenty years compared to the conventional 599 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 2: fossil fuel based production pathways we have. So if you 600 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 2: solely rely on economics for these technologies to be adopted 601 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: in these industries, it is going to be a tough one. 602 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: But in some markets we do see progress happening, and 603 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 2: that's where you have the right environment of a carbon 604 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: pricing policy, or you have the right customers are ready 605 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 2: to pay a premium to buy some of these green 606 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 2: products in order to decarbonize their own supply chain and 607 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 2: their own emissions footprint. So if the question is can 608 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 2: these technologies come down the cost curve and be competitive 609 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 2: and reduce emissions and achieve net zero at a cost 610 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 2: point or a price point that is compared to conventional 611 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 2: maybe not in the next twenty years, is the unfortunate answer. 612 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: I mean, and that makes sense because they are I mean, 613 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: in the case of ccs, it is really just an 614 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: additional cost, and in the case of hydrogen or bio 615 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: energy or essentially using a less efficient pathway to provide 616 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: the chemical inputs that are required. So no easy pathway 617 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: to cost parity or perhaps not getting there. How about 618 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: being commercial of commercial scale, when do we feel like, 619 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: what's your best guess, So, when do you think that 620 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: we can start to hit a bit of an inflection 621 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: point and get more deployment of these technologies. 622 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,720 Speaker 2: So from a technology perspective, there's definitely different time frames 623 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 2: for different sectors and how each of these technologies play 624 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 2: within each of these sectors. For cement, as we discuss previously, 625 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 2: the first commercial scale project that is ready to capture 626 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,439 Speaker 2: carbon dioxide from cement production when operational earlier this year, 627 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 2: which means if you're thinking about technology maturity, that project 628 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 2: is already up and running and we have about two 629 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 2: to three years to understand more about this technology. And 630 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 2: there are several more projects that are looking to do 631 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 2: this that's coming online this decade itself. So CCS for cement, 632 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 2: you're starting to see deployment already happening. When it comes 633 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 2: to hydrogen for steel, a lot of the first furnaces 634 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 2: directroduction furnaces that are capable of operating on both natural 635 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 2: gas and hydrogen are already operational and some are be 636 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,359 Speaker 2: getting built over the next two to three years. Again, 637 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,919 Speaker 2: from a commercially available and readiness perspective, they are also 638 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 2: available this decade. Now, many of these furnaces haven't used 639 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 2: one hundred percent hydrogen to test the results of what 640 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: this means for commercial scale production, and we'll start to 641 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 2: see more results of this coming out again in the 642 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 2: next two to three years. The first project that I'm 643 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 2: looking forward to is to see results from Stegras project 644 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 2: in Sweden and how they're able to commercially get this 645 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 2: project up and running with one hundred percent clean hydrogen source, 646 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 2: and that can really create the foundations for understanding how 647 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: to use hydrogen in the direct production process and in 648 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 2: the steel mainking process. So I would say in the 649 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 2: early twenty thirties is when we have a commercially deployable 650 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 2: model for hydrogen based direct production furnaces. Globally. There are 651 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: lots of projects happening now that's expected to come by 652 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 2: twenty thirty, but if you want really commercially available projects 653 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: to like scale up, my guess is it will be 654 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 2: in the early twenty thirties. So that's kind of the 655 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 2: big ones when you think about ccs and hydrogen ccs 656 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 2: for steel. While the technology itself is commercially available, its 657 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 2: use at projects is likely going to move into the 658 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 2: next decade. It probably not a priority for a lot 659 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: of steelmakers in this decade, so we only see most 660 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 2: of the announcements for the use of ccs and steel plants, 661 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 2: especially blast wellnesses targeting early twenty thirties or late twenty 662 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 2: thirties at this point. 663 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: So still a lot of hard work ahead for the 664 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 1: heavy industry sectors to decarbonize, to commercialize, and to move 665 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: down the cost curve as much as they possibly can. Alan, 666 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: thank you very much for providing us set insight into 667 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: what has happened in this year, and we look forward 668 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: to hearing your predictions for what happens in twenty twenty 669 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: six early next year. 670 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Gobor for having me. Thank you. 671 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,320 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray 672 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: with production assistants from Kamala Shelling. 673 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 2: Bloomberg ne EF is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP, 674 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 2: and it's a billy. 675 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: This recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed 676 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: as investment advice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to 677 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: an investment or other strategy. 678 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,919 Speaker 2: Bloomberg ANIAF should not be considered as information sufficient upon 679 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 2: which to base an investment decision. 680 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: Neither Bloomberg Finance LP, nor any of its affiliates makes 681 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness 682 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,959 Speaker 1: of the information contained in this recording, and any 683 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 2: Liability as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed