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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we love

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Speaker 1: us some Sid Colson, but we would never willingly be

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Speaker 1: passengers on her plane. It's definitely not you said, it's

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Speaker 1: us sure. On today's show, we'll be kicking it with

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Speaker 1: broadcaster Carrie Champion and unpacking what she learned while hosting

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Speaker 1: her new podcast series The Making of a Rivalry Caitlin

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Speaker 1: Clark Versus Angel Reese. Plus an update on the Jordan

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Speaker 1: Childs bronze medal saga, more cryptic WNBA tweets, and an

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Speaker 1: ode to a coold Weather essential. It's all coming up

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Speaker 1: right after this Welcome back. Here's what you need to

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Speaker 1: know today. On Monday, Team USA Olympic gymnast Jordan Childs

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Speaker 1: submitted an appeal to the Swiss Federal Supreme Court over

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Speaker 1: the Court of Arbitration for Sport or CAS's decision that

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Speaker 1: resulted in her being stripped of her individual bronze medal

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Speaker 1: in the floor exercise. Now to jog your memory on

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Speaker 1: this whole saga, Jordan originally finished fifth in the floor

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Speaker 1: exercise final at the Paris Olympics, but her score increased

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Speaker 1: by a tenth of a point after her coach submitted

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Speaker 1: an inquiry, asserting that the judges didn't credit her for

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Speaker 1: one of her skills. That boost ended up pushing Childs

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Speaker 1: past to Romanian gymnasts and onto the podium for bronze,

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Speaker 1: setting up that epic photo that we all remember with

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Speaker 1: her in Smoane Biles and Rebecca Andrage. So five days later,

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Speaker 1: after Romanian officials file to complete with CIS, they announced

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Speaker 1: that the inquiry on Child's behalf was submitted four seconds

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Speaker 1: past the one minute deadline. CIS called for the results

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Speaker 1: of the competition to be reversed, and the International Olympic

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Speaker 1: Committee stripped Chiles of her bronze medal. USA Gymnastics attempted

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Speaker 1: to appeal that CIS decision on Chiles's behalf, claiming that

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Speaker 1: the organization had video evidence showing that her coach's inquiry

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Speaker 1: was submitted in forty seven seconds, well within the deadline.

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Speaker 1: CIS declined the appeal on the basis of rules that

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Speaker 1: quote do not allow for an arbitral award to be

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Speaker 1: reconsidered even when conclusive new evidence is presented end quote.

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Speaker 1: Chiles new appeal this week claims that the CIS's decision

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Speaker 1: ignored her quote right to be heard and She cites

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Speaker 1: a conflict of interest by the president of the CIS

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Speaker 1: arbitration panel due to his previous work for You Guessed

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Speaker 1: at Romania. It also includes details about how CIS initially

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Speaker 1: used the wrong email addresses to try to get in

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Speaker 1: touch with representatives of USA Gymnastics and the US Olympic

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Speaker 1: and Paralympic Committee. While the appeal to the Swiss Tribunal

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Speaker 1: was submitted under Jordan's name by her attorneys, it was

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Speaker 1: done with the support of both USA Gymnastics and the USOPC.

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Speaker 1: In a statement, USA Gymnastics said quote USAG is closely

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Speaker 1: coordinating with Jordan and her legal team and will make

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Speaker 1: supportive filings with the court in the continued pursuit of

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Speaker 1: justice for Jordan end quote. As part of her appeal,

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Speaker 1: Jordan's team submitted video footage from the documentary crew that

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Speaker 1: was taping teammates Simone Biles during the Olympics. In the footage,

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Speaker 1: Child's coach to Seal Landy, can be heard telling an

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Speaker 1: official that she wanted to submit an appeal within the

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Speaker 1: one minute deadline now because the Swiss Federal Tribunal only

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Speaker 1: hears appeals if they meet certain limited restrictions. For example,

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Speaker 1: if CIS procedures weren't followed, it was crucial for Jordan's

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Speaker 1: legal team to cite problems with the process and not

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Speaker 1: just a decision itself. As you can see, this story

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Speaker 1: is ongoing. We'll keep you updated. Two women's college hoops

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Speaker 1: some unsettling news. An Oregon man, Robert Cole Parmally was

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Speaker 1: charged Monday for stalking and harassing Yukon women's basketball star

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Speaker 1: page Beckers. He was arrested on Friday by Yukon police,

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Speaker 1: who said they were made aware of him way back

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Speaker 1: in June after he sent the school's communications department a

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Speaker 1: number of emails claiming that he was a member of

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Speaker 1: the royal family and wanted to marry a member of

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Speaker 1: the women's basketball team. He was also arrested on August

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Speaker 1: twenty seventh by Connecticut State Police while walking along a

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Speaker 1: highway near Bradley International Airport in Connecticut. He told police

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Speaker 1: he was on his way to Seebeckers. Prior to that arrest,

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Speaker 1: Parmeally posted to social media that he was going to

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Speaker 1: propose to Becker's and get her expelled. Parmey has been

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Speaker 1: charged with breach of peace, electronic stocking, and harassment and

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Speaker 1: he's being held on a one hundred thousand dollars bond.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole lot to deal with while also just

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Speaker 1: getting ready to get back to school in basketball. So

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Speaker 1: we're sending Paige good vibes to pro hoops. In WNBA news,

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Speaker 1: the league's social media account is following the Phoenix Mercury's lead,

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Speaker 1: dropping cryptic posts to keep folks guessing they aren't about

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Speaker 1: Diana Trossi's potential retirement, though yesterday the WNBA tweeted quote,

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Speaker 1: you know what's better than fourteen teams with a smirk emoji.

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Speaker 1: Now this feels like an obvious hint at expansion beyond

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Speaker 1: just the Golden State Valkyries and the WNBA Toronto franchises

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Speaker 1: that are coming into action starting in twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: and twenty twenty six, respectively, and all signs point to

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Speaker 1: Portland and the Bethal family. That name sounds familiar. Raj

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Speaker 1: Bethal is the principal co owner of the Sacramento Kings

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Speaker 1: of the MNBA. Son Alex is co owner and executive

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Speaker 1: director of Sacramento Basketball Holdings, which owns the Kings, and

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, the family acquired the controlling interest

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Speaker 1: in the Portland Thorns of the NWSL. Alex and his

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Speaker 1: sister Lisa now managed data day operations for the Thorns.

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Speaker 1: Reporter Sean Heiken broke the news of the Bethal's landing

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Speaker 1: a Portland expansion team a couple of weeks ago on

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Speaker 1: the Rose Garden Report, and he's now reporting that an

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Speaker 1: official announcement will come today. Also in more WNBA, shout

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Speaker 1: out to photographer for bree Lawerki, who posted a series

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Speaker 1: of photos on Instagram of the notoriously hot headed Caitlin

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Speaker 1: Clark being wrangled by her teammates working at Calmer Down

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Speaker 1: keep her away from officials. Pre wrote quote c C

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Speaker 1: de Escalation Committee is one of my favorite things to capture.

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Speaker 1: Eliah Boston responded, we work overtime, and Clark herself wrote

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Speaker 1: Brah with a punch of laughing emojis, you could check

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Speaker 1: out breeze work at Brie Laworki photo. As for Tuesday's

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Speaker 1: WNBA games, we recorded before a few of them wrapped,

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Speaker 1: so go check out the results and you can keep

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Speaker 1: up with that race for the eighth and final playoff spot.

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Speaker 1: In college volleyball, the top five teams are all in action. Tonight,

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Speaker 1: We've got an in state showdown between number one Pit

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Speaker 1: and number three Penn State. Number two Stanford squares off

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Speaker 1: with number five Nebraska, and number four Louisville plays number

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Speaker 1: eleven Kentucky. We already told you about a few upsets

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Speaker 1: early in this season, so worth keeping your eyes peeled

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Speaker 1: for potential fireworks tonight. We got to pay some bills

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Speaker 1: when we come back. We'll get comfortable being uncomfortable with

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Speaker 1: Kerrie Champion joining us now. She's a CNN contributor, the

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Speaker 1: host of the podcast Naked with Carrie Champion and the

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Speaker 1: new podcast series The Making of a Rivalry Kaitlyn Clark

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Speaker 1: versus Angel Reese. She's a proud UCLA alum, the founder

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Speaker 1: of the Brown Girls Dream Foundation, and she was my

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Speaker 1: emotional support animal and can it's Carrie Champion.

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Speaker 2: Legit, you were mine as well. Legit, I was.

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Speaker 1: Going to carry like, I don't know where what am

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Speaker 1: I supposed to wear? How am I supposed to act?

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Speaker 1: In these places? Who are all these people? You were

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Speaker 1: calming me down, giving me hype talks, which I appreciated.

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Speaker 1: You deserve, you deserve. I'm excited about this new podcast.

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Speaker 1: So episode two just dropped on Monday. This is a

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Speaker 1: juicy topic. What made you want to explore it in

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Speaker 1: a podcast series?

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Speaker 2: The same things I think most journalists have felt, especially

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Speaker 2: if you're a woman. You felt like you could not

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Speaker 2: have this conversation about either one of these ladies, Angel

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Speaker 2: Reese or Caitlin Clark without feeling marginalized pro Caitlin anti Caitlin,

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Speaker 2: pro Angel anti Angel. And I felt, is it if

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Speaker 2: there were so much sensitivity around women and how women compete?

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Speaker 2: It really bothered me because, as you know, like I know,

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Speaker 2: being a woman with a strong personality, comfortable and confident

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Speaker 2: in a lot of ways makes people uncomfortable. But that's

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Speaker 2: just because society has said we are supposed to behave

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Speaker 2: a certain way. And so when I watch these women

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Speaker 2: compete against one another and I noticed how people wanted

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Speaker 2: them to behave, I thought to myself, well, this is

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Speaker 2: so unfair. This is not even this is not even

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Speaker 2: a real conversation. We're having clutches my pearls, Like what

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Speaker 2: is this this is about? And so I just wanted

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Speaker 2: to explore all the intersections it meta and met at gender,

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Speaker 2: and met at race and met at how women consume sports.

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Speaker 2: It's political, it's cultural, it is sports, It is all

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Speaker 2: of these things, and I wanted to show how sports

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Speaker 2: is truly, in my opinion, a microcosm of a larger

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Speaker 2: issue that we have in society.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to get into a lot of those intersections.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. At the top of the first episode, one

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Speaker 1: of the things you mentioned, which I've almost forgotten as

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Speaker 1: we talk about so many other things around this rivalry,

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Speaker 1: which is the simple idea of like women playing sports

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Speaker 1: and competing. And we've had this conversation for the entirety

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Speaker 1: of my lifetime, from being a kid and like how

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Speaker 1: can you be lady like and also want to win

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Speaker 1: to professional sports. But it feels like with these two,

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Speaker 1: because the conversation got so big and so loud, we

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Speaker 1: were maybe able to finally get through to more people

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Speaker 1: about the idea that if you're playing sports the goal

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Speaker 1: is to win. If the goal is to win, then

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Speaker 1: that comes ahead of what your hair looks like, whether

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Speaker 1: you look friendly, whether you're being nice, whether you're you know,

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Speaker 1: being a good sport like that simple idea. The fact

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Speaker 1: that we still are having to get that through to people,

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Speaker 1: I think is the baseline for this whole conversation, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: if we're still there, how can we expect ourselves to

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Speaker 1: get to all of the other more nuanced stuff. But

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Speaker 1: that's what you're trying to get to. And you spoke

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Speaker 1: to a whole bunch of people for the series. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about some of the people you decided

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Speaker 1: to call in to talk about Caitlin versus Angel.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, I called in Sarah spain Day. Yeah, she is

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Speaker 2: a cligger expert on this topic. But I tried to

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Speaker 2: really honestly, I wanted to talk to people outside of

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Speaker 2: and I gotta be really honest with you, outside of

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Speaker 2: talking to Caitlyn and Angel. I knew they would give

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Speaker 2: me the correct response, and I wanted someone to talk

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Speaker 2: to me about what they really felt. And so I

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Speaker 2: went to a lot of friends and colleagues, and I

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Speaker 2: also went to what I call a culture expert, this

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Speaker 2: guy by the name of keV on stage. He's a comedian,

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Speaker 2: but he really truly is a die hard fan of

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Speaker 2: women's basketball because he has a women in his household.

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Speaker 2: He's married to a woman, a black woman more specifically,

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Speaker 2: and he, to me is one of these voices that really, really,

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Speaker 2: really is a part of the conversation on Twitter or

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Speaker 2: x or whatever you'd like to call it whenever they're

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Speaker 2: having these battles. And I remember him tweeting and talking

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Speaker 2: about things during this during the initial rivalry, if you will,

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Speaker 2: when Caitlyn and Angel were in college, and he said

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Speaker 2: some really smart things and he was very honest. So

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Speaker 2: I wanted to find people who would be very honest

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Speaker 2: I would want. I wanted to find people in the

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Speaker 2: media and see their perspective and how they thought they

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Speaker 2: were covering the story or how they viewed the story.

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Speaker 2: And then, last but not least, I wanted to hear

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Speaker 2: from And we've been able to catch up with Angel

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Speaker 2: when she was playing before she got injured. We talked

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Speaker 2: to her, and of course she said the right things.

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Speaker 2: I understand that, But I really wanted to talk to

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Speaker 2: people from various backgrounds black, white, male, female, and I

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Speaker 2: wanted to see their perspective and just as I assumes,

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Speaker 2: and I'm gonna be honest except for Sarah and Ryan,

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Speaker 2: and that's Ryan Ruco because he caught the big game,

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Speaker 2: the big lsu Iowa game, and yourself. I think everyone

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Speaker 2: has really told this story through their filter. If you're black,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna tell it to a black filter. If you're white,

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Speaker 2: normally you'll tell it to it through a white filter.

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Speaker 2: And it's really interesting how we see things very differently

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Speaker 2: based on how we are raised and how we've been

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Speaker 2: approached in society.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you said the right things that. Well, did you

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Speaker 1: talk to Caitlin or did you end up only getting

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Speaker 1: a chance to talk to Angel?

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Speaker 2: I only talk to Angel. Caitlin is still we're still

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Speaker 2: hoping that we can get her. We still have four

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Speaker 2: more episodes and we're pressing it. And I ask you

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Speaker 2: is out today? The ask is out of the knocking

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Speaker 2: on the doors is out. Yeah. And we talked to

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Speaker 2: we talked to We talked to some of her teammates

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Speaker 2: from college, to Kate Martin, you know, those people who

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Speaker 2: know her in a way in which I thought was interesting.

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Speaker 1: People from the college game. Yeah. I just asked that

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Speaker 1: because it's interesting. You said you knew that they both

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn and Angel, and specifically when talking to Angel, that

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Speaker 1: it came true that they would say the right thing.

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Speaker 1: So that's one of the interesting parts about this conversation

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Speaker 1: is it can be difficult to dive in and say

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Speaker 1: either the true thing or the thing you're thinking for

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Speaker 1: fear that it isn't the right thing. So what is

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Speaker 1: the right thing? And why are they saying it? And

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Speaker 1: what do you think they're not saying that you'd rather hear.

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Speaker 2: I think they're saying it's not a rivalry because they

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Speaker 2: don't think that it should be perceived as a rivalry,

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Speaker 2: because that sounds negative, and that sounds like they don't

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Speaker 2: like each other. And I and I feel that they

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Speaker 2: should really look at that word and understand what it means.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that you have to play the same position.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that you guys have to go head

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Speaker 2: to head every night. What it means is that you

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Speaker 2: two people live on two or before you even started

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Speaker 2: to play one another, you've lived on two different spectrums

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Speaker 2: of the universe. You've come together, and the story of

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Speaker 2: you two playing in college now in the WNBA has

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Speaker 2: become a story of interest, and people have put verses

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Speaker 2: in between you all, whether it be the media, whether

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Speaker 2: it be you all yourselves. But I know that you

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Speaker 2: understand how important your role is to the women's game,

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Speaker 2: and I know you both understand that people are watching

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Speaker 2: what you do every single night when you play, and

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Speaker 2: I know you both understand there are people in camps

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Speaker 2: rooting against and four and so it's not necessarily a

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Speaker 2: bad thing. We need that inertia. We need that tension,

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Speaker 2: as we've talked about in this podcast series, to give

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Speaker 2: us a great storyline. And I hate to say it,

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Speaker 2: but that's what we have with these two young ladies.

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Speaker 2: And they're like, well, we're not rivals. I'd be hard

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Speaker 2: pressed to believe that they aren't paying attention to what

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Speaker 2: they both are doing. I know Angel is looking at

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Speaker 2: Caitlin's stats, and I know Caitlyn is looking at angel

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Speaker 2: stats because you wouldn't be a competitor. You are taking

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Speaker 2: away the idea of who you are at your core

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Speaker 2: by saying you're not interested in what the other person

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Speaker 2: is doing and you don't care about that. Yes you do,

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Speaker 2: you do. It's just who you are. And if you

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Speaker 2: don't want to say it, that's fine, but I'll say

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Speaker 2: it for you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think it's both the way that this quote unquote

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Speaker 1: rivalry or I guess I shouldnt say quote unquote it's

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Speaker 1: a rivalry. We've put the verses between them. We're going

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Speaker 1: to hold them up there inextricably linked, whether they agree

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Speaker 1: to it or not, whether they want to. The way

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Speaker 1: this yeah, I think the way this rivalry has been

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Speaker 1: covered and what it has unlocked for so many different

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Speaker 1: fan bases and groups, including some truly unhinged behavior that

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Speaker 1: is racist, that is misogynist, that is homophobic, that is sexist,

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Speaker 1: all the things. I think that that makes it easy

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Speaker 1: to want to shy away from it because with it

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Speaker 1: comes so much bad stuff. Sure, and in women's sports especially,

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Speaker 1: there is a lot less of people flat out saying

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Speaker 1: we don't like them. That's our rival, whether it's a

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Speaker 1: team or a player. We see it all the time

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Speaker 1: in men's sports, and I think that comes back to

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Speaker 1: what we started with off the top of the show,

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Speaker 1: this expectation for women and the idea that you would

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Speaker 1: blatantly say out loud, I want to win, I want

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Speaker 1: to beat them, I don't like them, and that's okay.

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Speaker 1: Is a step too far for some people in society, right,

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Speaker 1: which is so frustrating.

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Speaker 2: And even the more frustrating part about it is the

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Speaker 2: women can't say that because they don't want the men

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Speaker 2: who've never watched the game to say they're jealous. They

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Speaker 2: don't want the men who could care less about the

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Speaker 2: game to call them caddy, and in fact, it's okay

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Speaker 2: to say all of these things because we're not holding

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Speaker 2: Draymond Green accountable for certain things that he said and done.

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Speaker 2: We're not holding you know, Lebron James accountable for being

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Speaker 2: competitive towards other people like Kobe didn't like anybody, and

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Speaker 2: it was okay. And I don't understand we.

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Speaker 1: Turned that into the Mamba mentality. We made that a

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Speaker 1: thing that everyone should aspire to. And when women, they're caddy,

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Speaker 1: they're bitchy, they're jealous.

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Speaker 2: And all I guess what, so are men. And let's

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Speaker 2: just all of that applies to men, and then let's

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Speaker 2: just embrace the fact that a competition isn't a bad

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Speaker 2: thing selfish. Being selfish gets a bad rap too, And

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Speaker 2: I just I really hate how we don't allow women

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Speaker 2: to compete as athletes. And what I am finding throughout

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Speaker 2: this entire docu series is that that is probably more

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Speaker 2: of the big surprise to me than even the race

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Speaker 2: element and even the darling that Caitlin has become and

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Speaker 2: the villain that Angel has decided that she would embrace

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Speaker 2: the fact that women don't even allow women to compete,

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Speaker 2: and one of our Kevi on stage said this, He goes,

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Speaker 2: women are supposed to play with dolls. You're supposed to

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Speaker 2: play with dolls. The boys are supposed to rough house.

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Speaker 2: He was like, that's how they've been raised. He was like,

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Speaker 2: and so when we're watching these women compete like athletes,

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Speaker 2: not necessarily like men, but just like athletes, it's uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: for us to see that. And I thought to myself, well,

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Speaker 2: we are here, it is twenty two. Where are we

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Speaker 2: in the women's rights movement?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, fifty plus years plast title nine, when you all

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Speaker 1: grew up with women playing Everyone who's been born in

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Speaker 1: the last fifty years has grown up with women having

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Speaker 1: the right in the opportunity. So it's it's disturbing and

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Speaker 1: sad that we're still having to explain things to people.

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Speaker 1: But to your point, what's been really frustrating as this

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Speaker 1: rivalry has taken shape has been the voices that have

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Speaker 1: gotten the spotlight, how willing they are to say things

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Speaker 1: so out of pocket, Like the ones that stood out

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Speaker 1: the most to me weren't even the talking heads that

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Speaker 1: I'm used to trying to get clicks and say things

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Speaker 1: that are sillacious. It was a former NBA player saying

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Speaker 1: that the rest of the WNBA should let Caitlin win

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Speaker 1: early on when she was struggling because it'd be good

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Speaker 1: for the league. And I'm like, oh my god, you

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Speaker 1: have completely divorced these women from the idea of sports

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Speaker 1: at all. If you believe that that's going to take place,

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Speaker 1: and the disrespect for the league and for their lifetime

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Speaker 1: of work that you think that that's the answer is

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Speaker 1: they shouldn't try. Like, what has surprised you the most

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Speaker 1: about That was the most surprising to me was athletes

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Speaker 1: saying shit like that.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was people who now claim that they're fans

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Speaker 2: of the w NBA weighing in like a Charles Barkley

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Speaker 2: saying that you know, they got this wrong. The w

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Speaker 2: NBA messed this up. Y'all should be grateful to Caitlin,

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Speaker 2: or we have the or we'll have other people who

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Speaker 2: are watching the game and explaining what the women are

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Speaker 2: doing wrong and how it's not fair and they're just

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Speaker 2: jumping on her. And I was just like, listen, I

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Speaker 2: find it really hard to believe that when Lebron was

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Speaker 2: a rookie, you guys were going easy on him. I

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Speaker 2: find it really hard to believe that you thought it

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Speaker 2: was wrong for Kobe to shit talk you and in

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Speaker 2: any capacity and talk about and by the way, the

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Speaker 2: the the trash talk isn't even on the level of

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Speaker 2: what the men do. Like, it's not they're not talking

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Speaker 2: about sleeping with somebody's wife. They're not we know that happens.

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Speaker 2: They're not talking about you know, someone's mom. They're like,

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Speaker 2: I'm about to I'm about to score here and I'm

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Speaker 2: about to take you here, and you ain't all that,

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Speaker 2: and I'm okay, it's okay for me to say that,

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Speaker 2: I'm surprised that I went on air with Bob. And

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Speaker 2: this was earlier in the season, right after Angel Reese

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Speaker 2: was thrown to the ground, and people were like, oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh, who cares? And then when Caitlin Clark, you know,

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Speaker 2: got that heart filed by Carter Kenedya Carter Rooone was like,

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Speaker 2: what's what's going on? And I said the same exact

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Speaker 2: thing Bob Costa said, but when he said it, and rightfully,

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Speaker 2: he's Bob Costas, but when he said it, it was like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, He's right. No one cares about the

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Speaker 2: black girls, but they do care about Ande Reese. And

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Speaker 2: I'm like, well, we've been we the women, Yeah, Caaitlyn Clark,

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Speaker 2: and he's like, no one cares about Angel Reese. They

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Speaker 2: only care about Kaitlyn Clark because it's it's it's it's

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Speaker 2: white on black crime, not black on black crime. In

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Speaker 2: shut right, I'm paraphrasing, and he went, I roll for that,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, in my mind, I'm all like, okay,

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Speaker 2: what else is new? Like welcome.

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Speaker 3: And welcome to life, Welcome to life and I And

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Speaker 3: it was just it was disappointing to me that we

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Speaker 3: can scream it from the rooftops, but it only it

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Speaker 3: only counts when someone our male counterpart, is saying it.

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Speaker 2: And that's the same for how we are covering the

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Speaker 2: women's game. No one cares about the women who have

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Speaker 2: been covering the game and who were talking about the game.

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Speaker 2: But if the men start man explaining the game, it

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Speaker 2: becomes so much more important and it becomes so much

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Speaker 2: more valuable.

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Speaker 1: Carry you remember that PSA I did more than me.

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Speaker 1: And one of the first things that we noticed when

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Speaker 1: it instantly went viral and millions of people were talking

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Speaker 1: about it, was that the two women didn't say anything.

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Speaker 1: They just sat there quietly and stoically taking it, and

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Speaker 1: the men were emotional, the men that were reading these

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Speaker 1: awful tweets to us, and that we're reading these things

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Speaker 1: that men had sent us that were on the verge

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Speaker 1: of tears. That was why people cared, because they don't

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Speaker 1: really care if women tell you how bad things are.

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Speaker 1: But if men get sad and emotional about it and

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Speaker 1: acknowledge it, then all of a sudden, let's make sure

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Speaker 1: we're talking about it, which is very much what we've

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Speaker 1: seen this year. The men have decided to join. And

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Speaker 1: this isn't all men. There have been some great men

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Speaker 1: covering the league forever, and there are some great men

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Speaker 1: who are talking about it in a way that reflects

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Speaker 1: the nuance that we've all known about this league for

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Speaker 1: many years. But yeah, that's been part of the problem.

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Speaker 1: And part of the problem also is I think the

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Speaker 1: league did not figure out in advance if they wanted

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Speaker 1: to do something about this, prepare for this. They could

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Speaker 1: see the ball rolling down the hill, and they didn't

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Speaker 1: get in front of it. Kathy Engelbert sent a letter

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Speaker 1: to WNBA players acknowledging that she missed the market or

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Speaker 1: interview on CNBC. You posted on Social about that interview quote,

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Speaker 1: the commissioner answered, like every employer I've worked for, avoiding

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Speaker 1: or perhaps invalidating the feelings of many in the league

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Speaker 1: she has been charged with governing. Tell me more.

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Speaker 2: I think that every place that I have worked for,

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Speaker 2: in any in any in any capacity. And I'm not

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Speaker 2: just referring to most people know me from ESPN, but

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Speaker 2: I've worked in many other jobs, you know, even when

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00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,760
Speaker 2: I was in college. And if my boss does not

430
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 2: look like me and I and I raise an issue,

431
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 2: i e. If my boss is white and I raise

432
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 2: the issue about racism, or if I feel marginalized, or

433
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 2: if I feel left out, they are uncomfortable, they ignore it.

434
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 2: Kathy Engelbert's response on CNBC was, you know, I was

435
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 2: told a long time ago that you should just ignore

436
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,200
Speaker 2: the people, if you wouldn't take advice from them, and

437
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,600
Speaker 2: just ignore them. I'm like, what, what, what did you

438
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 2: just say? What the hell did you just say? And

439
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 2: it's so disrespectful. But it's more than disrespectful, it's painful.

440
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,480
Speaker 2: It's painful because as a black woman, I get tired

441
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 2: of being called a villain. I get tired of being

442
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 2: told what I'm not. I get tired of expressing myself

443
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: and feeling like I can't bring my whole self to

444
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 2: work because I will then be perceived as too much

445
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 2: or I am doing too much. And I've struggled with this,

446
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,400
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna be honest with you, Sarah. I've struggled

447
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 2: with this because I had this problem with she Carrie Richardson.

448
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 2: I had when Angel would would have an attitude on

449
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 2: the court, I'd be like, why you're representing all of us?

450
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 2: Why are you doing that? But you know what I decided,

451
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 2: I said, this generation does not give a fly in

452
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 2: about what other people say about them. They are bringing

453
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,919
Speaker 2: their full selves and they should be unapologetic about who

454
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 2: they are and what makes them who they are. We

455
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 2: as a society can't let one moment define who we

456
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 2: think these people are. So what if you didn't like

457
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 2: what Angel Rehys did to Caitlin Clark, That's not who

458
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 2: she is. She shouldn't be a thug, she shouldn't be

459
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: villainized for that one moment. Let me tell you about

460
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 2: the one mini moments I've had that I'd be ashamed

461
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 2: of if somebody held me to that standard. And what

462
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: Kathy Engelbert did was exactly what white people do. No

463
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 2: offense is ignore the issue. This is why in this

464
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,239
Speaker 2: country we cannot talk about race. This is why in

465
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 2: this country we are often told when we bring it up,

466
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,440
Speaker 2: it's uncomfortable. I talked to Coach Blueter, which is Caitlin

467
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 2: Clark's coach, and Coach Bluter was very honest and she

468
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: was like, you know, I just wish and she had

469
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 2: a hard time talking about race, and she said, I

470
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 2: just wish she just didn't have to get too ugly.

471
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 2: I wish people didn't have to bring race into it.

472
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 2: And she was like, and then.

473
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 1: They existing, Yes, that's when race comes into it. When

474
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 1: someone exists of any race that's different than another race,

475
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: that's race. Now, race is in it.

476
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,199
Speaker 2: Now here's the thing that is a privilege and a

477
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 2: luxury that the marginalized do not have. And you know

478
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 2: that as a woman, you walk into a room, you

479
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 2: can't hide the fact that you're a woman, and you

480
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 2: know they're going to judge you for that walk into

481
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 2: the room as a black person you are do people

482
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 2: immediately have ideas about who you are and where you

483
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 2: come from. And so I was so disgusted with this

484
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 2: response from Kathy Engelbert on this stage where the majority

485
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 2: of your players are and or is is ism exists,

486
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: whether it be the sexism issue, whether it be the

487
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 2: racism issue, and ism exists, and you're so out of

488
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 2: touch that you talk about while rivalry is good for

489
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 2: the game, yes, yes, and but what about this race issue.

490
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 2: It really made me frustrated because I'm like, here we

491
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 2: go get another corporate response.

492
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 1: Right, Well, it wasn't just ignoring it either. It was

493
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: actually spinning it into a positive correct Like, it wasn't

494
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: just I don't want to talk about races, like how

495
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: great is this for our league? And it's like, wait

496
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 1: a minute, we can have both things. We can talk

497
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: about how having a foil and having a rival is great,

498
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: and we do like to have a take on things.

499
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 1: This allows us to have a take. And also, my

500
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: players should not be going through these levels of character assassination, racism, homophobia,

501
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: all the stuff. And she didn't do that. And to

502
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 1: your point, that is a privilege point of view, to

503
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: be able to ignore the lived experiences of people who

504
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 1: are different than you in favor of talking about the

505
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 1: things that you think are a positive spin. And I

506
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: think that when we look at how culpable league leadership

507
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,239
Speaker 1: is in terms of how far the unhinged fans and

508
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: even some media have been able to go around this rivalry.

509
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: You know, we know that social media is awful, we

510
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: know that people are going to be awful, but this

511
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: feels like more than that. It feels like it got

512
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,479
Speaker 1: out of control and there was no one trying to

513
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: reel it in right.

514
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: Well, because you have someone at the helm of this

515
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 2: of the WNBA who cannot even relate to what it

516
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: feels like to be marginalized. And if she doesn't want

517
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 2: to right or doesn't want to, and if she does

518
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: know it exists, she doesn't know how to talk about it.

519
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: So I talked to Kristin Meyer, which is Caitlin Clark's

520
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: high school coach, and she goes, you know, I know

521
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: that they've been asking Caitlin about this, and I think

522
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 2: if I were Caitlin, I wouldn't know what to say.

523
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: I don't know how to talk about race. I wouldn't

524
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: know what to say. I know that I've been thinking

525
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 2: about having someone come in and talk to my students,

526
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 2: but this is a most white school. So here she

527
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: is at this white school, and that's all she's had

528
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 2: all of her life, and then you put her in

529
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 2: this world and you say answer questions about race, can you?

530
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 2: And she's like, well, what, well, what I'm uncomfortable And

531
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 2: Ryan Rukle said this best he goes they're afraid of

532
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: saying something wrong, which is why they ignore it. And

533
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 2: this is here's the answer, guys, here's okay. Spoiler alert.

534
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: If you talk about uncomfortable things, they become more comfortable.

535
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: And so I understand why, Yes, you don't want to

536
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: talk about race, especially if you're not educated in that area,

537
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,239
Speaker 2: but you're going to have to do some homework. Too

538
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 2: much is given much as required.

539
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: That's what I was gonna say.

540
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 2: That's a choice.

541
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: That's a choice.

542
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 2: Too much as given, much is required.

543
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: Caitlin Clark will only for so long be able to

544
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: fall back on. I'm focused on basketball were I'm a

545
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: twenty two year old with a million things that have

546
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: just been put on my shoulders, and I am not

547
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: yet comfortable or capable of talking about these things in

548
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: a way that isn't incredibly stressful. I remember writing Thompson's

549
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: story about her. She spoke to Jeremy Shapp about whether

550
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: angels should be allowed to do the you can't see me,

551
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: and she said all the right things, and then after

552
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 1: she was shaking and almost crying because she was so

553
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: worried about saying the wrong thing. Understandable, and you only

554
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: get to say that for so long. Now that you

555
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: know that this is required of you, Now that you

556
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: know you're in a league that has predominantly women of color,

557
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 1: that has plenty of women that are queer, that has

558
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: all these isms, it is now on you to choose

559
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: to educate yourself in a way so that you can

560
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: speak on it comfortably.

561
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 2: You have no choice. And I know you may not

562
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: want that, but let me tell you something as a body.

563
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: But she should want to choose that too, again, because

564
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: when you understand your own privilege, then you want to

565
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: be able to speak to that stuff in a way

566
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: that makes everybody around you feel like you care about

567
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: what they're going through.

568
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 2: You are a rare breed. And this is why I

569
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 2: say to you, it's so funny. You don't even know

570
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: this conversation. I was talking to Kelly Carter and I

571
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: was like, she's a true ally, whether she wants to

572
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: be or not. And I think that's genuinely who she is,

573
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 2: and she just believes in what is right and what

574
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: is wrong. And she has a very strong point of view.

575
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: And you're very intelligent people who say it took you

576
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: a while to find your voice. It took me a

577
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: while to find my voice. It's going to take her

578
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: a minute to find her voice. Then she will want.

579
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: Same with Lebron. They were coming to Lebron and asking

580
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 2: him what he thought about Trayvon Martin. He really didn't

581
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: have an answer, and he said, guess what, I should

582
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 2: figure this out. So I'm going to give her the

583
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: grace to figure it out. I'm going to give her

584
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 2: some time because I never figured it out. It took

585
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 2: a while for him to figure it out.

586
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 1: And some say Michael Jordan still hasn't that Listen, I'm

587
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: obsessed with Michael Jordan.

588
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: And he will say great things that any more talks

589
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: about because he's not comfortable.

590
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: Right. There's a lot of publicity that doesn't get given

591
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: to the things that he does. That's good, but he

592
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: doesn't feel comfortable talking about stuff, and he doesn't and

593
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: he's in his sixties, so maybe she won't figure it out.

594
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: I am like you, though, I am giving her the

595
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: grace to get some time, she figure out how she

596
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: wants to respond it, to feel comfortable responding on us.

597
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: But what happens is when you have leadership that doesn't

598
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: get out in front of it and isn't intentional in

599
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: the way that these things happen and unfurl over the

600
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: course of a season, you get what's happening right now.

601
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: And I think Kathy is very much feeling the effects

602
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: of not having figured that out earlier.

603
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 2: And by the way, how long have you been in

604
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 2: charge of the league. By the way, how long have

605
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 2: you been governing women? And that's when you talk and

606
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: you've had I know, you know many WNBA players, like

607
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 2: I do, they're not a fan of Kathy Engelbert, And

608
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: all this did was solidify how they felt about her

609
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 2: and how they felt about the w And they need

610
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: to figure this out quick.

611
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: And I am so sick of women being in the

612
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: uncomfortable position of saying, okay, but this is good for business,

613
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: or this person knows how to make us money and

614
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: not being able to find the people that can do both,

615
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,239
Speaker 1: or maybe not looking fair. But I don't know that

616
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: that's always the case. I like, listen, in my experience

617
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: with the NWSL. It was incredibly frustrating to find that

618
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: all the people with the money were the ones that

619
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: did not know what they were doing when it came

620
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: to ensuring player safety and experience and joy. And then

621
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: you're looking around for people who do get that, and

622
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: sometimes the reason that they have that empathy and understanding

623
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: is because they're not billionaires. Because guess what, some people

624
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: who want to be billionaires are not the same people

625
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: who want to lead others and be empathetic and understand.

626
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: And I'm getting on a tangent here, but I do

627
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: think what I'm discovering as I get older, in particular,

628
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: is very often the people in charge and who want

629
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: to be in charge are not always the same people

630
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: that want that interaction with the players that understand them.

631
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: Those people take other positions the top top top are

632
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: about business, they're about finance, they're about catsline, they're about

633
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: and listen. I want that person to also be able

634
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: to understand and lead right away. That's good for the players.

635
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: And it feels like in women's sports particularly, that's where

636
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: there's so much conflict.

637
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't do it. I'm okay with I'm okay

638
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: with this. I'm okay with you being in charges of

639
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: money and making and making the money. But I also

640
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: am not okay with when you are aware that there's

641
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: a problem, you don't fix it, you don't bring someone

642
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: in because that's also good business. That's also good business.

643
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: At least Yeah, know that that's not your wheelhouse and

644
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: have people in place correct, educate yourself to speak on

645
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: it in those instances like that show, and then behind

646
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: the scenes, have people that you know are on top

647
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: of that so that you can be doing the business.

648
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: This interesting is something we've talked about. Like we both

649
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: worked at ESPN. President was really anyway.

650
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: I was trying not to go there. I had so

651
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 2: many That's so true.

652
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: The previous president was really into content and very much

653
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: involved himself in content and talent issues. The current president

654
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: is really into business and has other people handle content

655
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: and talent. They both work in different ways, but you

656
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: have to know that about yourself. And I guess we're

657
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: going to all start doing a little more digging to

658
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: understand where the very highest levels of the WNBA in

659
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: that office, in addition to Kathy, have enough of the

660
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: people that understand what the players are dealing with and

661
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: are having intentional collaborative plans moving forward, to deal with massage, shore,

662
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: to deal with homophontes, to deal with all of it,

663
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: to deal with all of it. Do you think that's

664
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: going to happen, because to me, it feels like this

665
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: is the league that we've seen collective player energy. So

666
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: will it just end up being the players doing that?

667
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, I don't think the women. First of all,

668
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 2: women by nature are usually natural leaders. We've always seen

669
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: how the women in the WNBA, especially because they are

670
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: a group of marginalized women, have led at the forefront.

671
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: I don't think Kathy has it in her to do that.

672
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: I hate to say that, I just feel like she's

673
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: off the mark. I think this letter she wrote to

674
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: play and individually meeting with players sounds like she's just

675
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 2: trying to put a ball on it and look good.

676
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: I don't think she really cares. I think she's there

677
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: to make money. I think that when they're looking for

678
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 2: an empathetic leader, they'll hand the keys over to someone

679
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: who has an understanding. But she is not the person

680
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: to do that. And it's so painfully clear. Stevie Wonder

681
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: can see it. She does not care about these players,

682
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 2: and I know she doesn't because it feels more about

683
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: what she was able to do. She wants to put

684
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: her name on growing in the league. She wants to

685
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: associate herself with this rivalry there. To me, doesn't feel

686
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: like there's any empathy in her about what is really

687
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 2: truly the problem. And I'm not speaking out of turn.

688
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: I'm speaking for women who lead this league who tell

689
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: me that in private conversations that they've had with her.

690
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: I understand that that is her job to make money,

691
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: but she has missed the mark on the humanity side

692
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: of this, which is what these women really truly want

693
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: as well. They want to be seen as individuals. They

694
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: don't want to be seen as the lesbian or the black,

695
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: or the this or the that. I am a human being. First,

696
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 2: do you see my humanity? If you can't, Sarah, see

697
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: me as your sister, your mother, your cousin. If you

698
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 2: don't feel that way for me, then you can't understand

699
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: my plight. And I don't think that she has that.

700
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: I could be wrong. I doubt if I'm wrong, and

701
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 2: it's okay, and it's okay, they'll find somebody else to

702
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: figure it out. But we already know what once we

703
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 2: know what it is, we can fix it. Yeah.

704
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: I think I have definitely heard some people criticize Kathy

705
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: who are deeply embedded in the league. I haven't reported

706
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: on to know whether or not she is someone who

707
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: blatantly doesn't care about the players or simply doesn't understand

708
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: how much of her role should be more about caring

709
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: about and understanding the plight of her players instead of

710
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: just the business side. But you're speaking from a place

711
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: of having spoken to players who feel that way. I'll

712
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: take your word for it. One thing I want to

713
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: say before we leave, which is really fascinating to me,

714
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: is thinking about the way the w and not just

715
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: the black players, but a lot of the black players

716
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: have come together to stand up for things that really

717
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,719
Speaker 1: matter and have felt so collaborative. I was listening to

718
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: an episode of We Can Do Hard Things with Brittany

719
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: Packnet Cunningham. She was talking about specifically Kamala Harris, and

720
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: she was talking about the Black women Calls that started

721
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: with her initial run for president and continued in the

722
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: years since and grew to a space where they were

723
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: perfectly ready when Kamala announced her presidency to keep it moving,

724
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: and they inspired the white Women for Harris, called the

725
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: White Dudes for Harris call, all of the other calls

726
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: that have raised lots of money and have helped sort

727
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: of these black women teaching others how to organize because

728
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: it's been going on for so long. And one thing

729
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: that Brittany said that many might find uncomfortable is that

730
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: because Black women are so consistently let down, not just

731
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: by black men but the rest of the world, that

732
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: they know that they have to rely on each other.

733
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: So there is a constant feeling of sisterhood and togetherness

734
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: and we are in this and bound together to get

735
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: what we need via each other, and that white women

736
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: do not have the same instinct because we are closer

737
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: in proximity to power to white men. There is more

738
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: to be gained by us aligning with the men in

739
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: our lives than other women. And so when we get

740
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: in instances where we were being held back or held down,

741
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: we look to the men to help us instead of

742
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: to each other. And that includes isolating from and leaving

743
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: out black women because they are not the source of

744
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: power for us. And so white women in order to

745
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: understand how black women organize and move forward in a

746
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: way that's even when someone steps out of bounds and

747
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: does something Brittany Packnick Cunningham said, we will publicly support her,

748
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: and we will privately say hey, we're not doing this. Yep,

749
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: call them in and say here's how we're dealing with this.

750
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: We're publicly still going to support you, though, And that

751
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: kind of connection does not exist. And there are a

752
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: million reasons, religion, patriarchy, centuries of bullshit, etc. But in

753
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: order for this league and the women leading it, as

754
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: well as playing in it and the fans to move

755
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: forward is to understand and learn from the way that

756
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: black women collaborate. And we've seen that in this league.

757
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: And I'm fascinated by this conversation that they had.

758
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: I love you for bringing Brittany into it. You know,

759
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: she's one of my closest friends. She's in our here.

760
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: I want to meet her. She's in our group.

761
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: Chat called Machete. So I'm going to tell you what

762
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 2: she said. We have this group chat cap right, So

763
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 2: it's it's Sunny Sonny Hoysten from the view, it's Brittany,

764
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: it's me, it's Angela, It's it's Joey Read. It's a

765
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: bunch of just amazing Angela Rie just a bunch of

766
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 2: amazing women and everything she said is true. The group

767
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: chat was formed because during the pandemic, we were feeling

768
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 2: very marginalized and left out and not supported, and that's

769
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 2: what it was about. It was about bringing everyone together

770
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: and in our own different disciplines, different fields that we

771
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: worked in making sure that we all felt supported. And

772
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 2: we also had other people in the background moving chips

773
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 2: for us to make sure that our voices were heard.

774
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: The the the and I don't and I'm not saying

775
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 2: this in a braggadocious way, I almost feel like it's

776
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,479
Speaker 2: it's it's become a burden. Black women are the moral

777
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: conscience of society. We always are worried about everybody else

778
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: but ourselves. We've raised their kids, We've raised we we

779
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: take care of their families, We take care of our families.

780
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 2: We always say, well, that's not right, and we do

781
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: publicly support and we privately we privately disciplined. I feel

782
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: like that has helped us, but it's also heard as

783
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: in so many ways because if we aren't more honest

784
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: about what we feel, these women aren't doing. Ie, white women,

785
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: do you remember that share the mic where Glenny Doyle

786
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: was apart. Yeah, and we and we took over the

787
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 2: white women's platforms that had the larger platforms.

788
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: Remember I had two black women take over my ESPN

789
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: show that.

790
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: Night, remember, and you know, and you saw the response

791
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: and some of it good, some of it bad. But

792
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: it was just a perfect example of what doesn't exist

793
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 2: outside of our community and our culture and in order.

794
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that there needs to be a

795
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 2: black woman running the WNBA, but what I am saying

796
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 2: it needs to be somebody who really truly believes in

797
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 2: sisterhood and she's benefited from it. If you haven't benefited

798
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 2: from sisterhood and men have only helped you all your

799
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 2: life and in your career and personally and professionally, you

800
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: can't relate. You just can't. You don't even know, you

801
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 2: don't even know what sisterhood looks like. And also, I'll

802
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 2: say this, and you tell me if I'm wrong. We

803
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 2: were just raised differently. I was raised to take care

804
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 2: of women. I was raised to believe in women. I

805
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 2: couldn't talk smack to my mother. If I have no

806
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: respect for my mom, I'm gonna have any respect for

807
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 2: the girl next door. I wish I would say something

808
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: slick to my mom. She'd look at me like I

809
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: was crazy. Even to this day, Like, even to this day,

810
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,479
Speaker 2: I'm still afraid of saying something wrong.

811
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: I'm not big on generalizations. I'll give you that. There's

812
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 1: probably a lot of instances in both directions, But yes,

813
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: I see your point. Therefore, shore I agree.

814
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: But I do know, for I do know for a

815
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: fact you don't. I'm not saying you. I'm saying it's

816
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: hard to grow up and say I don't deal with

817
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: this because I've never seen it. You know what I mean?

818
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, I just mean like I would never talk

819
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: shit to my mom.

820
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 4: But yes, I agree with you, which is why we

821
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 4: were like she's one of us. Like and I hate

822
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 4: to even say that, like I know you don't want

823
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 4: to and you can say, alth I'm telling you what

824
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 4: what a conversation would be behind closed doors, And Brittany

825
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 4: would love you, by the way, But the reality.

826
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 2: Is we need to make a day happen. But the

827
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: reality is is that we're talking about it, and we

828
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 2: have the mic, and we can say and and no

829
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 2: one's always right, no one's always wrong. But what I

830
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: hope is is that at the end of the day,

831
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 2: we let these women play sports like they are allowed

832
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: to play and not in not put any titles and

833
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: define them and put boxes around them. And I'm giving

834
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: Caitlin as much grace as she needs to figure it out.

835
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 2: I really truly I agree.

836
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: And I think where we wrap here, which is great,

837
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: is not only that they get to play in the

838
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: way that they want and they get to be what

839
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: they want, but that are conversations not only allow that,

840
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,919
Speaker 1: but because of this moment that we're in, we move

841
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,959
Speaker 1: forward as a result of this awkward and difficult time,

842
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: right that instead of just having these conversations and then

843
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: moving on and forgetting everything that we allegedly learned from them,

844
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: that we move forward and have better understand the next

845
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: time issues of misogynore and homophobia and everything else come

846
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: up in the lead, that we don't just redo this

847
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: all over again. That's what we need to do, is

848
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: learn when we have these opportunities, these awkward and difficult

849
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: conversations that come up as a result of organic things

850
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 1: like this rivalry, take what we learn and then move

851
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: forward and make the sion based on them.

852
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 2: We did resolve that, we did, We did put this

853
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: out there and solved. We just did it.

854
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you Carrie. I always to have it

855
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: to you. I'm excited to listen to more of the

856
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: podcast and good luck with it.

857
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 2: Thank you, Brand, you too, good luck with yours. This exciting.

858
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: Thanks to Kerry for dropping by. We'll keep listening to

859
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: the pod. We got to take another break. When we return,

860
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 1: we make sure you Slices fulfill your civic duty. Welcome back,

861
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: Orange Slices. You know this already, but yesterday was National

862
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: Voter Registration Day. Athletes, celebs, brands of all kinds, from

863
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: Billie Eilish to US Soccer to Ben and Jerry's got

864
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: out the message with all sorts of videos and social posts,

865
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: including the WNBA joining Rock the Vote to mobilized voters.

866
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: You can check it out at Rockthvote dot org slash

867
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: teamw We'll link to it in our show notes. Remember

868
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: we're less than fifty days out from election day, and

869
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 1: in a lot of states you have to be registered

870
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 1: by October sixth in order to vote on November fifth,

871
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: So even if you think you're registered, be sure to

872
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: double or triple check. Lots of states periodically purge their

873
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: voter rules, which is a topic for another time. So

874
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: even if you voted in a previous election, make sure

875
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: you're registered for this one, especially if you moved or

876
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,479
Speaker 1: went to college. Just don't nod your head while listening

877
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: to this. Get out your phone and hop on your

878
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: computer and do it. It takes thirty seconds. Speaking of voting,

879
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 1: with the regular season in the WNBA almost wrapped, ESPN's

880
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: trio of award voters have publicly announced their picks. Kevin Pelton,

881
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: Alexa Philippo, and Michael Voppel were aligned for four of

882
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 1: the six major WNBA awards, unanimously selecting Asia Wilson for MVP,

883
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: Caitlin Clark for Rookie of the Year, Cheryl Reeve for

884
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: Coach of the Year, and the FISA Collier for Defensive

885
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: Player of the Year. The total voting panel of sixty

886
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: eight media members at national outlets and within the twelve

887
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: WNBA markets will turn in their ballots by noon Eastern

888
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: on Friday, and the award winners will be announced throughout

889
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: the postseason. But you can turn in your ballot now. Yep,

890
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: it's time for fight me. I said what I said,

891
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: so you know what?

892
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: Fight me?

893
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: Yep, fight me, which means our resident w expert miche

894
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: has to weigh in, and so do I. I'll go first.

895
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep it pretty simple, pretty quick. I actually

896
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: agree with the aforementioned ESPN writers on the first couple.

897
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: So Asia Wilson MVP, Caitlin Clark Rookie of the Year,

898
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: Nafisa Collier. I'm gonna give the edge shoot for Defensive

899
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: Player of the Year, but I think it almost might

900
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: be like one of those kind of nice things, like,

901
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: obviously Asia's the MVP, but Nafisa had a great season,

902
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: so give her a little bit of a nudge there,

903
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: and she and Asia go back and forth on those

904
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: defensive statistics. There's certain ones where Asia's leading, there's certain

905
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: ones where in Afiicia's leading, and I don't know. I'm

906
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: just gonna want to give her something for the seasons

907
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 1: she's had, so I'm doing that. And then I agree

908
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: with Cheryl Reeves as the Coach of the Year. There's

909
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: a couple that are definitely in the running there, but

910
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: the links have been incredibly impressive, especially after the Olympic break.

911
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: The other two awards they're like not unanimous on and

912
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: I can totally see why there's an argument for a

913
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: bunch of them. But my sixth person of the Year,

914
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: I gotta go with Leoni Foevich to the New York Liberty.

915
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: She's a rookie out of Germany, and the Liberty have

916
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: just had such a dominant season. I know that we've

917
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: talked about the Links kind of taking the power of late,

918
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: but they've been pretty powerful all season long, start to finish,

919
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 1: and she ended up starting fifteen games when a bunch

920
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 1: of players were in and out of the lineup for injury.

921
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: And this was a team that also, you know, had

922
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: people at the Olympics. Foebish herself played in the Olympics

923
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: for Germany. So I don't know I'm given the nod

924
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: to her, but the argument is there for certainly the others,

925
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: and then same with most improved I could see a

926
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: handful of players. This is not a Homer pick. It

927
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: might just be that I know more about her. But

928
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: Kennedy Carter, for all she's had in her past, like

929
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: literally playing only eleven games because of issues with teammates

930
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: and you know, being sidelined because of behavior, it's not

931
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: just that her play has been so impressive for a

932
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: team that really needed it in the sky, but also

933
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 1: just being able to stay on the court, being able

934
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: to find focus under a new head coach. Obviously, Tea

935
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: Spoon has a way of keeping her in the game,

936
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: and when she's been hot, Kennedy Carter has been hot.

937
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna go ahead and give her most proved

938
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: You've given me much here, Sarah Spain. I'll breethe through

939
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: my first two quickly. Asia's MVP, Kaitlin Clark's Rookie of

940
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: the Year. My coach of the Year is Eric Tebow

941
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: because we just.

942
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 5: Talked about the way the Mystics have turned this ship around,

943
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 5: and we would be remiss if we did not at

944
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 5: least put him in that conversation. I don't have a vote,

945
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 5: so I feel really good about it, but it's.

946
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: A decent one. If they don't make the postseason, though,

947
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: that'll be really impressive, it girl, Like, Yeah, I want

948
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: to give the guy who came to an zero to

949
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 1: twelve start and they missed the playoffs coach of the year.

950
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: Like without contacts later on, your people will be like,

951
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: what happened that year?

952
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's true, But I'll swallow my pride on

953
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 5: that one. For Defensive Player of the Year, I'm taking

954
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 5: the philosophical opposite stance as you, meaning, yes, Fie, I

955
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 5: feel like it would be insane for her to finish

956
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 5: the season with no none of those major awards, right,

957
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 5: But I also think it's insane to not reward greatness

958
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 5: while we're seeing it. And I think just because Asia

959
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 5: is having an MVP season, that doesn't mean we could

960
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 5: ignore the fact she's leading the leading blocks, leading the

961
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 5: league in defensive rebounds, defensive winds shares head to head

962
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 5: against NAFISA Colliers. She's also leading that battle so and

963
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 5: for those who don't know, that's a stat that measures

964
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 5: how much a player contributes to their team's wins through

965
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 5: defense avanced stats. I'm not a huge fan, but they're

966
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 5: pointing to Agie Wilson right now.

967
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna argue with you on that, Like I could.

968
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: I completely torn. I literally just picked it because it's

969
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: like I'll pick someone else for that one, even though

970
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: Asia could absolutely and maybe should get it.

971
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, six Player of the Year, I got Tiffany Hayes.

972
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: We just talked about Asia.

973
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 5: She obviously shouldered a lot of that load for the Aces,

974
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 5: but I also think they wouldn't be in this position

975
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 5: without Tip Hayes. She is true two way player, true

976
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 5: instant offense, the energy undeniable on the court or on

977
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 5: the bench as a vet. And let's also remember tip

978
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 5: Hays is coming back to the league. She was in retirement,

979
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 5: came out of retirement just to play with the Aces

980
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 5: this year, and so add that to the mixed bag

981
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 5: as well. And again philosophical difference here. Foebich has started

982
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 5: eleven more games for the Liberty than Hayes has for

983
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 5: the Aces, And to me, that speaks kind of to

984
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 5: the spirit of this award, Right, I'm looking at who

985
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 5: comes off the bench to provide more and less time

986
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 5: is kind of how I approach sixth Player of the Year.

987
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 1: So that's me on that.

988
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 5: And then most Improved, it's gotta be Dja because Kennedy,

989
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 5: people who've been paying attention to her know she's been

990
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 5: hooping like this.

991
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: She has made capsule age could be hooping like this,

992
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: but she wasn't because she wasn't even on the floor.

993
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 5: It's not because of things that happened on the court though,

994
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 5: It's not because of those where it's like hard with

995
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 5: the semantics of must improved, what does that mean?

996
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: Like you were a worse player and now you're better,

997
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 1: or you weren't doing this and now you are.

998
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 5: Exactly That is the root of the issue there, and

999
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 5: all of these awards I think can be contested based

1000
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 5: on what you think the criteria except for except for.

1001
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: That, and probably Caitlin at this point too. Oh yeah,

1002
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: I think that's I think she's got that wrapped up.

1003
00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 2: But uh yeah, I.

1004
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: Got to give that the DJNA. So that's me. That's

1005
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: my picks, yo, Okay, those are ours. Send us your

1006
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: picks for the end of season awards. Who's your MVP,

1007
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, Coach

1008
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: of the Year, most Improved Player, and sixth Player of

1009
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: the Year. If you don't have a vote for all

1010
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: of them, just send what you got. Send them to

1011
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: me on Twitter or exit Sarah Spain Instagram at Spain

1012
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: two three two three, or email us at good Game

1013
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: at wondermedianetwork dot com. That's your good gameplay of the day.

1014
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 1: And also a reminder, we know that Thursday could be

1015
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: Diana Tarassi's last regular season game, so let us know

1016
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 1: what's your favorite DT memory. We really want to play

1017
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: some of your awesome responses on the show, So leave

1018
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: us a voicemail at eight seven to two two o

1019
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: four fifty seventy, or you can hit us up on

1020
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 1: email if that's your thing. Good game at Wondermedia network

1021
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: dot com. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review my pretties.

1022
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: It's easy. Watch a good blanket rating five out of

1023
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: five stars. Review A good blanket can for real change

1024
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: your life when you can achieve maximum codes, warm your

1025
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: extremities and come back to center on the couch, at

1026
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: your desk, or in a moving car or wherever. Suddenly

1027
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: things just don't seem that bad. There's a good reason

1028
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: that little kids have blankies, because that shit works. So

1029
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: next time you're feeling overwhelmed or stressed, just get yourself

1030
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: a good blanket, wrap yourself up in it like a burrito,

1031
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: and see if your mood improves, even if it's just

1032
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: by one tiny iota. And if you really want your

1033
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: shit centered waited blanket, a friend gave me a few

1034
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: for my dogs. They're supposed to be calming, and they are.

1035
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: I know this because they're mine.

1036
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: Now.

1037
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: Don't feel bad for the dogs, though, because they lie

1038
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: directly on top of me like barnacles. In fact, They're

1039
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: kind of like their own special kind of way to blanket. Now,

1040
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks for listening, See

1041
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: you tomorrow. Good Game, Carrie, Good Game, Jordan Chiles, You

1042
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 1: Voter Disenfranchisement. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart

1043
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.

1044
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1045
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,

1046
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: our producers are Alex Azzi and Misha Jones. Our executive

1047
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rutterer.

1048
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: Our editors are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rutterer, Brittany Martinez and

1049
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: Grace Lynch. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your

1050
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: Host Sarah Spain