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Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released weekly every Wednesday and brought

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Speaker 1: to you absolutely free. But if you want ad free

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Speaker 1: listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus

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Speaker 1: dot com or on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and

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Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Talking to Death. It's Mike here. Where's

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Speaker 2: pain right? Well, right now, He's super busy with the

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Speaker 2: new season of Up and Finish and I'm working from

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Speaker 2: home today getting over this cold. So I might sound

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Speaker 2: a little off, but either way, we have a very

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Speaker 2: exciting interview today. Our guest is a former music executive

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Speaker 2: turned podcaster. He was CEO of Atlantic Virgin Records, Capital

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Speaker 2: Music Group and even had his own label. He signed

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Speaker 2: some huge artists like skid Row, Katy Perry Lord in

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Speaker 2: Matchbox twenty, just to name a few. Now he has

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Speaker 2: a whole network of shows and hosts an incredible Webby

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Speaker 2: Award winning podcast called Wrongful Conviction. His name is Jason Flahm,

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Speaker 2: and it was an absolute blast meeting him in New

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Speaker 2: York City. His whole story about how he got into

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Speaker 2: justice reform is actually just fascinating. I really don't have

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Speaker 2: anything else to say, so let's go ahead and play

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Speaker 2: the theme song.

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Speaker 1: Now that I know that you're an ex music mogul,

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Speaker 1: which I did not know. It's pretty, it's got a badass.

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Speaker 1: Let's be real, what time period did you work in

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Speaker 1: in the music industry. It's kind of an amazing journey

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Speaker 1: that I had.

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Speaker 3: You know, I often say my story is really the

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Speaker 3: story of my life, is my journey from being to

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Speaker 3: I want to be Jimmy Hendrix, the chairman and CEO

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Speaker 3: of three of the biggest record companies in the world,

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Speaker 3: but more importantly, from being a drug addicted college dropout

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Speaker 3: to a pioneer in criminal justice reform. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I do a lot of public speaking, and that's how

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Speaker 3: I almost always start I speak for that because it's

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Speaker 3: kind of like, huh, you know, like wait, that was

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Speaker 3: a big thing. Yeah, But my my music business journey.

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Speaker 1: Sorry.

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Speaker 3: When I was eighteen years old, I failed at being

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Speaker 3: a rock star and then decided, through you know, lucky

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Speaker 3: break and serendipity and a lot of other things, I

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Speaker 3: found out that I might be able to have an

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Speaker 3: opportunity to create helping other people become rock stars, I

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Speaker 3: feel too, and so many of us did. Here we

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Speaker 3: are and then live vicariously through them. So that was

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Speaker 3: my Uh, that was my plan from the time I

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Speaker 3: started at Atlantic Records as an eighteen year old kid

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Speaker 3: and they gave me a staple gun and some double sided

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Speaker 3: tape and a bunch of led Zeppelin posters and you know,

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Speaker 3: sent me out at the record stores to go put

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Speaker 3: these posters up. And I was like, this is the

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Speaker 3: greatest job ever.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this was the end the day where

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Speaker 1: there was big money in that space where those crazy

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Speaker 1: record deals, because they were there was bands and artists

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Speaker 1: doing millions of CD sales, right, I mean casually, dude,

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Speaker 1: it was yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if you could fart and tune back, then

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Speaker 3: could more or less you know, have a I mean

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Speaker 3: it was we didn't know how good we had it, right,

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Speaker 3: but it was. It was an awesome time there was

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Speaker 3: you know, look, it was also a time when you know,

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Speaker 3: the level of creativity, especially in rock and roll, was

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Speaker 3: so extraordinary and uh and I grew up on rock

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Speaker 3: and roll, so I mean I loved, you know, the

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Speaker 3: iconic rock bands of the of the seventies was what

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Speaker 3: I grew up on.

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Speaker 1: And so top three, top three for me growing up.

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Speaker 3: Wow, if I only had to pick three, it would

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Speaker 3: be Zeppelin, Aerosmith, and I'm talking about early Aerosmith. So

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Speaker 3: people looking at the Going Way, aren't they like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: I'm talking about Get Your Wings, you know, Toys in

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Speaker 3: the Attic Rocks, the first album that was That was.

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Speaker 1: The serious, serious stuff.

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Speaker 3: That's what's inspired you know, Guns and Roses to start

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Speaker 3: their band. Slash talks about that in the book. But

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Speaker 3: and if I had to pick a third, I mean,

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Speaker 3: the first one that comes to mind is Bob Dylan.

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Speaker 3: You know, I mean different but yeah, he You know,

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Speaker 3: I used to sit in school board and transcribe his

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Speaker 3: lyrics and just sit there and off, like what the fuck.

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Speaker 1: Inscribe them just but then hearing it and writing it

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Speaker 1: down just just like write out like poetry, Like there,

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Speaker 1: you know it's poetry.

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Speaker 3: His lyrics are poetry. But then you know, I mean

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Speaker 3: or what yeah, well that was before Liner knows how

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Speaker 3: I used to listen to music back then. Lines were

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Speaker 3: really a thing back then, and there was no like okay,

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Speaker 3: now you can look up anything on rap genius.

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Speaker 1: Right, it's like so accessible. It doesn't really make sense.

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Speaker 3: But no, I just memorize them and write them out.

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Speaker 3: But then, of course that was Queen, you know, and

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Speaker 3: that was also one of my north stars. So I

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Speaker 3: mean I gave you four instead of three.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I mean I'm glad you threw Queen in there, though.

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Speaker 1: That's the Yeah, three is impossible.

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Speaker 3: I feel like, dude, my dog's name is Freddy Mercury. Like,

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Speaker 3: let's get here, that's your actual dog's name. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's like the Freddy Murky both names.

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Speaker 1: Is Reddy Mercury.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, because he's because he's a rock star and

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Speaker 3: he's always looking for somebody to love, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean.

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Speaker 1: So it's like it makes kind of perfect sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a dog lover, an animal lover, and you know,

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Speaker 3: other than working on justice stuff, you know, animal stuff

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Speaker 3: is my other sort of philanthropic you know, lean whatever

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Speaker 3: you want to call it or cause you know, there's

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Speaker 3: there's others, but those are my yeah, and so saving

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Speaker 3: the rhinos in particular. But but dogs are just everything

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Speaker 3: to me. And I can say that I love every

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Speaker 3: dog I've ever had, but I've never had.

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Speaker 1: A connection with an animal like the one I have

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Speaker 1: with Freddie. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, and this is you know, this

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Speaker 3: is this is a true story. It's gonna sound too

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Speaker 3: good to be true. But and you may have even

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Speaker 3: seen this because it went viral. But Freddie was on

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Speaker 3: the beach about three months ago with my girlfriend and

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Speaker 3: I was actually, it's gonna sound boogie. But I was

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Speaker 3: on the golf course and she texts me and she says,

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Speaker 3: there's only one of the person at the beach with

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Speaker 3: us today, and it's one of our guy who lives

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Speaker 3: in our neighborhood who we know with his dog. And

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Speaker 3: he was stumbling around like he was disoriented, and then

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Speaker 3: he collapsed and he's out cold, and she goes, I called,

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Speaker 3: you know, the ambulance were waiting for him now. And

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, you know, you know,

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Speaker 3: please keep me posted.

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Speaker 1: Like what can I say? I'm not there, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, I'm not a doctor anyway, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what to do, right.

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Speaker 3: Freddy goes and sticks himself under this guy's legs. His

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Speaker 3: name's David, sticks him under David's legs, sticks some self on,

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Speaker 3: positions himself they're holding his legs in the air, and

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Speaker 3: just sits there like a sphinx with his little tennis

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Speaker 3: ball in front of him that he was playing with

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Speaker 3: before this happened, and waits for the ambulance. Ambulance drives

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Speaker 3: onto the beach. The e MS guys get out and

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Speaker 3: they said to her is he friendly? And she's like yeah,

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Speaker 3: and they go good, because he's doing exactly what we

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Speaker 3: need him to be doing, which is holding this guy's

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Speaker 3: legs in the air because he's in diabetic shock. And

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Speaker 3: you have to keep I didn't know this and she

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Speaker 3: didn't even know this, and she's got training as a nurse,

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Speaker 3: but you have to keep somebody's legs elevated apparently our

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Speaker 3: body part to keep the blood flow going when they

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Speaker 3: go into this diabetic shock.

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Speaker 1: So how did your dog know that? We don't know.

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Speaker 3: He sat there, He sat there stone still the entire

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Speaker 3: time as they were, you know, resuscitating him. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I found out later that he was not you know,

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Speaker 3: he was not far away from going into a coma.

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Speaker 1: So your dog saved this guy's life.

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Speaker 3: With yeah, I mean with help obviously, but we don't

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Speaker 3: we have no We know that dogs can be trained

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Speaker 3: to detect COVID, to detect cancers and Teles. We know

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Speaker 3: the dogs have incredible abilities to help, but usually they

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Speaker 3: have to be trained to do so. In this case,

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Speaker 3: he just instinctually knew exactly what to do and he

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Speaker 3: just went and did it without anybody asking.

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Speaker 1: He was off leash. By the way, what do you

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Speaker 1: make of that? Then? You know it makes you think

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Speaker 1: we don't deserve dogs. I can tell you that, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's you know, what can you say? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was incredible and I put it on my Instagram.

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Speaker 1: My Instagram by the way, is it's Jason flamm If

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Speaker 1: you want to follow me, is it s Jason Father?

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Speaker 1: There was another Jason Wlamber got there before me. He's

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Speaker 1: a school teacher in Tallahassee. You follow him to one.

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Speaker 1: But so, yeah, no dogs are you know? What was it?

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Speaker 1: The founder of Kinko's.

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Speaker 3: I've heard a quote attributed to him where he said,

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Speaker 3: my dog could do my job because he has the

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Speaker 3: only two qualities that matter. He's enthusiastic and loyal, and

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Speaker 3: I was always stuck with him.

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Speaker 1: That's a true statement, But it's so much more than that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, they're just you know, and he's super friendly,

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Speaker 3: you know, and you know, it's like I I'm an

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Speaker 3: underdog person in sports. I always root for the underdog everything,

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Speaker 3: I root for the other dog life, right, that's it

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Speaker 3: that informs my work injustice?

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Speaker 1: Why is that? I don't know. I mean I just

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Speaker 1: grew up that way as a kid. You thought that too. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I hate bullying, you know, I hate fucking bullying and

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Speaker 3: I hate injustice.

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Speaker 1: Were you ever bullied?

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Speaker 3: I was probably bullied, you know, less than a lot

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Speaker 3: of other kids. My brother was bullied very badly. Okay,

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Speaker 3: that definitely left a really it was a really tough

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Speaker 3: thing from my child that just remembering that and being powerless.

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Speaker 1: To do anything about it. Is he an older brother

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Speaker 1: or because a year and a half older, but he's he's

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Speaker 1: a younger brother. Who Yeah, I was a younger brother

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Speaker 1: who went to different schools and even in camp, you know,

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Speaker 1: like it was just it was bad.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he looks very different. He's you know, he

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Speaker 3: had all sorts of problems he's related to, you know.

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Speaker 3: I think he was born very prematurely, and so he

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Speaker 3: had very poor coordination, physical issues and of course kids,

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Speaker 3: you know, they pick on kids people. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 3: and I really wasn't I didn't know where I was

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Speaker 3: coming from or who was doing it. I knew I

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Speaker 3: didn't know what to do about it, and U but

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Speaker 3: I hated it and I hate it whenever I see

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Speaker 3: it in any anywhere, whether it's animals, people, the justice system.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just it.

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Speaker 3: And if I'm in a position, I think for all

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Speaker 3: of us, if we're in a position to do something

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Speaker 3: about it, you should do something about it.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: I found I found, you know, for me, I found

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Speaker 3: a way to make an impact. And it's been you know,

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Speaker 3: it's been my life's work for the last like thirty years.

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Speaker 1: So you wanted to be a rock star and then

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Speaker 1: you said that you became a college dropout, a drug

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Speaker 1: addicted college dropout. Okay, what happened? You said it like

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Speaker 1: I've aspired to it. I wanted to be a drug

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Speaker 1: a college drop me a rock star? Right, No, that

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Speaker 1: wasn't the rock star. Life just gets you to too

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Speaker 1: soon or what happened?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was a rebellious kid. I had nothing really

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Speaker 3: to rebel against. I came from, you know, wonderful parents

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Speaker 3: and you know, but I.

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Speaker 1: Was maybe rebelling against that. Yeah, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: mean that.

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Speaker 3: You know, we're all when we're kids. I mean, look,

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Speaker 3: I think I smoked. You know, I smoked as much weed.

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Speaker 3: I was like a I mean it was like a

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Speaker 3: Jewish Rastafarian, Like it's ridiculous, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 3: not in a religious way.

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Speaker 1: I just smoked all all your friends know that you

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Speaker 1: had the weed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because I was selling you. And I mean I

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Speaker 3: had hair. I had so much hair that you couldn't

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Speaker 3: see my face. It covered my entire head. I don't

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Speaker 3: know how I smoked through it, but I did. And

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Speaker 3: the fact is in the summer I got really frizzy.

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Speaker 3: So the fact is I never really ran out of

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Speaker 3: weed because you know, I mean, I was selling it

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Speaker 3: so which was really dumb. But you know, I recognize

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Speaker 3: that if not for the color of my skin and

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Speaker 3: the zip code I grew up in, I absolutely would

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Speaker 3: have gone to jail.

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Speaker 1: When did you first realize that? Yeah, I mean I

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Speaker 1: think I really it really hit me when when I

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Speaker 1: had my moment. Right.

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Speaker 3: For many people who are listening, they've had a moment, right,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you've had your moments that that informed you

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Speaker 3: just sort of turn your life on a dime and

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Speaker 3: feels like right. And for me, that moment came in

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three, so thirty years ago. As we're sitting here.

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Speaker 3: It was the most random thing. I happened to pick

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Speaker 3: up the New York Post, which I never read. No

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Speaker 3: one should read it.

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Speaker 1: I still don't read it. Still read it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's like it's poison.

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Speaker 3: But I picked up the New York Post this particularly

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Speaker 3: day because I guess I was meant to times was

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Speaker 3: sold out. I was getting in a taxi. You know,

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Speaker 3: we didn't have phones to mess around with back then.

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Speaker 3: So I happened to see a story that I was

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Speaker 3: obviously meant to see, which was a story about the

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Speaker 3: kid named Stephen Lennon hid been sense to fifteen years

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Speaker 3: to life for a nonviolent first defense cocaine possession charge

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Speaker 3: in New York State. And for those of you who

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Speaker 3: think maybe I just misspoke, which would be a logical

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Speaker 3: thing to assume because it sounds so crazy, I was

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Speaker 3: actually telling this story to the guy I know yesterday

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Speaker 3: who was a coppack. Then he's like, no, no, that can't be.

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that could be.

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Speaker 3: So it was a non violent first offense cocaine possession

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Speaker 3: charge in a maximum security prison in New York State.

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Speaker 3: They're serving fifteen years to life. Now, it wasn't a

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Speaker 3: small amount of coke, but they didn't catch him selling it.

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Speaker 3: They happened to find it under the seat of his car,

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Speaker 3: and he and his friend who was a passenger in

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Speaker 3: the car both got arrested in charge with the full

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Speaker 3: amount of the drugs. Yeah, and so in those days.

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Speaker 3: Fortunately one of the organizations I work with has helped

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Speaker 3: to lead the charge to reform these laws. But in

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Speaker 3: those days of the Rockefeller drug laws, any possession over

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Speaker 3: four ounces of coke was treated as an A one felony,

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Speaker 3: the same as murder. So and in fact, hee in

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Speaker 3: some ways you be better off with murder because you

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Speaker 3: can plead down to manslaughter and you can get you know,

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Speaker 3: you can usually get a plea on a drug charge too,

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Speaker 3: if you if you plead guilty, but if you go

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Speaker 3: to trial, you get whacked. So these kids got fifteen

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Speaker 3: years to life. And the reason I think that it

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Speaker 3: hit me so hard was because I had had my

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Speaker 3: own substance abuse issues at this point. This kid's name

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Speaker 3: was Stephen Lennon. He had been in for a little

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Speaker 3: over eight years. At this time, I had been sober

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Speaker 3: for almost eight years because I'd gone to rehab instead

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Speaker 3: of jail because you know, but I had had issues

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Speaker 3: with cocaine, and he was thirty two years old. I

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Speaker 3: was thirty two years old. So I was like, damn,

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Speaker 3: but I'm not religious at all, but there before the

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Speaker 3: grace of something goes, I right, some higher power, So

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Speaker 3: I was like, fuck, I got to try to do

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Speaker 3: something about this. Yeah, like, because this is horrible, Like

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Speaker 3: this is unreal, It's unreal.

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Speaker 1: They probably felt very unfair, right, just like why am

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Speaker 1: I so lucky? Right? I mean, and he probably thought

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Speaker 1: about why that is, and of course is it just

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Speaker 1: because you're white? Unfair on every level? Right, like how

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Speaker 1: could this be non violent? First offense? You can't puture

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Speaker 1: yourself in there? And you go holy shit. On many

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Speaker 1: occasions I had gotten into a car with someone to

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Speaker 1: buy it who had lots of it in the car

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Speaker 1: because they were driving around selling it to different people

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Speaker 1: all day long. That could have been you as the passenger, right,

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Speaker 1: absolutely right, you're there unless the way the laws worked.

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Speaker 3: And still unfortunately, work is a weird word to use,

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Speaker 3: because but you know, the way the laws were written.

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Speaker 3: When we put it that way, if you were in

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Speaker 3: the car and you said it wasn't yours, and everybody

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Speaker 3: else says it's not theirs. It belongs to all of

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Speaker 3: you in its full amount. So and this wasn't the

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Speaker 3: only case like this I ever worked on, but anyway,

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Speaker 3: so this was like, holy shit, that definitely could have

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Speaker 3: been me. So he had four point two ounces of coke,

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Speaker 3: which is really dumb, because four ounces was the cliff.

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Speaker 1: Right where they could charge you and then just off.

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Speaker 1: Although who knows that maybe it was three point nine

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Speaker 1: and they rounded it up and a little bit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. But anyway, so I decided to see

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Speaker 1: if I could do something about this, and I called

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Speaker 1: his mother. His mother, by the way, the reason the

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Speaker 1: article was even in the newspaper at all was because

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Speaker 1: his mother, Shirley.

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Speaker 3: Who was a homemaker from upstate New York, had been

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Speaker 3: trying to get clemency from Governor Mario Cuomo for her son,

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Speaker 3: the father of our former governor here, and had gotten

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Speaker 3: letters from the sentencing judge, the warden, and even Geraldine

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Speaker 3: Ferraro wrote a letter on his behalf. And Geraldine Farr,

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Speaker 3: of course, was a major figure. She was the first

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Speaker 3: woman ever to be nominated to be vice president for

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Speaker 3: a major political party of the United States, and her

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Speaker 3: own son, John had been arrested for coke but sentenced

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Speaker 3: to house arrest because you know how much he was

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Speaker 3: caught for what it was. But anyway, so she, to

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Speaker 3: her credit, empathized with this woman who had written her

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Speaker 3: a letter out of the blue and wrote a letter

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Speaker 3: to the governor, which you would think would carry some weight.

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Speaker 1: She was from New York. She the vice presidential Yes,

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Speaker 1: this is an important person with you know.

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Speaker 3: And it also is why it made the newspaper because

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Speaker 3: Cuomo turned it down. So him turning down this powerful woman,

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Speaker 3: you know, was was a story. And so that's why

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Speaker 3: I was in the newspaper. That's why I saw it.

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Speaker 3: So I called up Shirley, and I said, listen, you

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Speaker 3: probably think I'm some you know not.

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Speaker 1: You called her up just randomly as a thirty two

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Speaker 1: year old like budding. I'm going to try to help her. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't know anything about anything. I just saw

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Speaker 3: that her name was in the article. She was in Rome,

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Speaker 3: New York. How many Shirley Lennon's could be in Rome,

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Speaker 3: New York.

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Speaker 1: I called her up.

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Speaker 3: I remember saying something on the lines of you know,

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Speaker 3: you probably think on some whack job from New York City,

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Speaker 3: but I just read this story and I can't. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's living rent free in my head. I I got

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Speaker 3: to do something about this. Can I send you some money.

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Speaker 3: I don't have a lot of money because I was

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Speaker 3: just a young record executive back then, but I'll send

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Speaker 3: you what I got. Maybe you can hire a new lawyer. Like,

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Speaker 3: you know, my eyes are wide, I don't know what

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Speaker 3: I'm doing. And she's like, well, it's very nice of you,

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Speaker 3: but you know, we've exhausted all of our appeals, and

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Speaker 3: you know, we were hoping for clemency, and now that

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Speaker 3: you know, she's going on just like and she was

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Speaker 3: telling me that there was a guy who was a

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Speaker 3: murderer who got into that same prison as her son

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Speaker 3: was sent to that prison where her son.

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Speaker 1: Was after it was convicted. He was already out and

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Speaker 1: her son had another seven years to go before he

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Speaker 1: was even out. Double for a role.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, something they were right. Something's rotten in

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Speaker 3: fucking Denmark and in New York too. So I said, look,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna try to do something. So I got the

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Speaker 3: only lawyer I knew. The only criminal defense latter I

387
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Speaker 3: knew at the time was a guy named Bob Coleena.

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Speaker 3: He represented two of the artist I had signed, Stone

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Speaker 3: Temple Pilots.

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Speaker 1: And entertainment attorney. Yeah yeah, like I said he was.

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Speaker 3: He represented Stone Temple, Pilots and skid Row whenever they

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Speaker 3: would get arrested, and they were getting arrested a lot,

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Speaker 3: you know. So I was like, I had'm on speed dial, right, yeah,

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Speaker 3: So I was like, I called Bob. I said, you know,

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Speaker 3: see if we sit down, and I put him on

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Speaker 3: the phone with Shirley and he said, look, it's hopeless,

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Speaker 3: but I'd been looking for a pro bon o caase anyway,

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Speaker 3: I'll take the case pro bono. I said, great, And

399
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Speaker 3: six months later he had found some you know angle

400
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Speaker 3: He said it wouldn't work, but he was able to

401
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,880
Speaker 3: get us a hearing. So off to Malone, New York

402
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 3: we go, which is up on the Canadian border, and

403
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 3: we're in this courtroom. I mean, now bear in mind,

404
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,199
Speaker 3: this is still ninety three or maybe early ninety four.

405
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Speaker 3: I still had a freaking mullet and purple Doc Martin's

406
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Speaker 3: they bring this kid, Stephen in his hands, are shackled

407
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Speaker 3: to his waist and his legs are chained together. I'm like,

408
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,520
Speaker 3: did this guy just go kill a bunch of people

409
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Speaker 3: that we don't know about?

410
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Speaker 1: Right? Is this a serial killer? What was happening? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: And you know he was sort of a you know,

412
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Speaker 3: it's sort of a skinny guy. You know, it sort

413
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Speaker 3: of not didn't look like an imposing figure anyway. The

414
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,399
Speaker 3: arguments go back and forth. I literally have no idea

415
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Speaker 3: what the fuck I'm listening to. And the judge bangs

416
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Speaker 3: the gavel down boom and says the emotion is granted.

417
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Speaker 3: And I'm sitting there holding missus Lennon's hand. She's squeezing

418
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Speaker 3: it as you can imagine. Her husband's on the other side.

419
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 3: Stan is his name, And Bob comes sort of scurrying

420
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Speaker 3: over in his suit and tie, and.

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Speaker 1: Like, Bob, what happened? And he goes, we won? And

422
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,440
Speaker 1: I was like we what? And he's like, we won

423
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Speaker 1: and I was like, holy shit, that's fucking great.

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Speaker 3: Right, So I was like this and that was my moment, right,

425
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Speaker 3: So they sent him home and I was like that

426
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,159
Speaker 3: was fun, right, And fun is a trivial word, but

427
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Speaker 3: it was the most fun I could ever remember having hat.

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Speaker 1: It was successful. It was a shot in the dark

429
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Speaker 1: and also a pretty badass tale of how you got there.

430
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Speaker 1: Probably safe to say that that started informing you from

431
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Speaker 1: that point forward a little bit in your life. That's

432
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Speaker 1: what that? What did that tell you?

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Speaker 4: Like?

434
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 1: What'd you learn from that? I guess, well, it was

435
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 1: beginner's luck, for sure.

436
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,480
Speaker 3: It's I wish it were that easy, but in this

437
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 3: case it was meant to be, obviously, and so it

438
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 3: just left me with this feeling of Wow, I have

439
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 3: some sort of superpower that I didn't know I have,

440
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 3: and I'm going to use it to the best of

441
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 3: my ability to help as many people as I can.

442
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:26,120
Speaker 3: So that you know that feeling, it never gets old.

443
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I know, I often say, Payne, I've had

444
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,879
Speaker 3: a lot of number one records, I've been super lucky

445
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 3: in the music industry, and not one of them comes

446
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 3: close to the feeling of walking one person out of prison,

447
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,160
Speaker 3: which I've had the privilege of doing now many times.

448
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 3: So so that experience changed the course of my life.

449
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 3: I realize how lucky I am on so many levels,

450
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 3: and how lucky are we right just to be sitting

451
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 3: here in New York City.

452
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 1: Right just to be born here. When you say that, though,

453
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 1: what are you thinking about when you say I'm so lucky?

454
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 1: What do you mean? I mean you listen to Neil

455
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 1: de grass Tyson talk about how your odds of even

456
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 1: being born or like one in four trillion or something.

457
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 1: I don't even know how you figure that out. How

458
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: microscopic we are in the whole thing.

459
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 3: I can't even win the power ball and that's only

460
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 3: like one in a you know, one hundred million or

461
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 3: something chances or two hundred million. But the idea of

462
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 3: being born is one thing. But then being born as

463
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 3: a human, you know, compared to being born as you know,

464
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 3: you could be a you know, it could be a a.

465
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: Lot of animals or that would suck to be that

466
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:29,360
Speaker 1: would suck, right, yeah.

467
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 3: And then there's you know, and then there's the idea

468
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 3: of being born where we were born. If you were

469
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 3: born here in America, right to the people we were

470
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 3: born to, right, because you could be born in America

471
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 3: but be born in you.

472
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: Can't choose that. You can't choose where you were born.

473
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 1: Who you are.

474
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 3: You're just you're born in North Korea. You're fucked, You're

475
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 3: just You might as well be not born, you're stuck

476
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 3: there forever forever. Yeah, yeah, and so and there's so

477
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 3: many places where you could be born, you know, into

478
00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 3: just you know, I mean impossible situations, right, and by

479
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 3: the way, we have them in America too, Right, if

480
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 3: you were born in the Mississippi Delta, you know.

481
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: It's a lot different, you know.

482
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I recognize that there are doors that opened

483
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 3: for me that you know, by virtual of the fact

484
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 3: that my father, you know, who was the first generation immigrant,

485
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 3: you know, was grew up borderline homeless, you know, like

486
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 3: a lot of immigrants, you know, built a better future

487
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 3: for us, and that's what everybody wants, right and so

488
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 3: for us kids. And he was able to, you know,

489
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 3: get me that faithful interview. I make no bones about it, right,

490
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,239
Speaker 3: I mean he when I was a misfit eighteen year

491
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 3: old smoking pod all day, didn't want to go to college,

492
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 3: he knew somebody who knew somebody who got me an

493
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 3: interview at Warner Communications, and they gave me this one

494
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 3: year trainee position and stuck me at Atlantic Records with

495
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 3: just like I said, with the staple gun and some

496
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 3: double sided tape. And I was like, I fell in

497
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 3: love with the music business. But had that door not

498
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: been opened, who knows, you know. I mean like it's like,

499
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 3: did you.

500
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 1: Know at that time though, how I guess special that

501
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: was or did that come in sort of a nuanced

502
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 1: way in hindsight as you grew older.

503
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: No, it came I think, you know, as you as

504
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 3: you grow up, you start to really appreciate that type

505
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,239
Speaker 3: of you know, privilege if you want to call it

506
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 3: that or lock or is serendipity or whatever you want

507
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 3: to call it, it's you know, but it's important that

508
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 3: we don't take it for granted, and that we try

509
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: to you know, reach back and try to create opportunities

510
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 3: for other people who weren't as lucky, you know. So

511
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 3: and then of course part of that being unlucky business

512
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 3: is being born in a place where you're or in

513
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 3: a color of your skin or born in a skin

514
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 3: color I should say, where you're that much more likely

515
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 3: to be victimized by our you know, disastrous obsession with

516
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 3: mass incarceration and you know and locking up our own

517
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 3: citizens at a rate that no other country has ever

518
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 3: done in the history of the world and and I

519
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: hope will never ever do again. So you know, that's

520
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 3: all of that. Look, you have to get lucky in

521
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 3: life in a lot of ways, right, every everyone's in

522
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 3: an average of like three car accidents I've heard, you

523
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 3: know in their life. I got like two more, then

524
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: you got two more to go. I guess, yeah, yeah,

525
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 3: I think I've used up my quota. But you know,

526
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 3: so you know, there's there's just so much luck in

527
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 3: everything that we do.

528
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: So how's that shift your viewpoint? Then? I mean, because

529
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: it's easy to it's easy to say we're so lucky, right,

530
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: but then okay, but how do you translate that into

531
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: your life? Like how do you actually look at the

532
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: bigger picture and what are you really telling yourself every day?

533
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: As you you know, it's just a moment to say

534
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: we're so lucky, but yees can still suck. So yeah,

535
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,239
Speaker 1: how do you well use that to propel you?

536
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 3: I guess it's a good question, so perspective, right, And

537
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 3: you know on my podcast, you know, one of the

538
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 3: podcasts that the one that I host, but one of

539
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 3: the ones that we distribute on my through my company,

540
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 3: Lava for Good, is called Wrongful Conviction. I was the

541
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: first one I started in twenty sixteen. You know, we're

542
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 3: I don't know, fifty sixty million downloads and now whatever

543
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 3: it is, and you know, a few hundred episodes, And

544
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 3: each week I interview somebody.

545
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: Who is the opposite, who.

546
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 3: Was beyond unlucky, who got arrested, charged and convicted of

547
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 3: a crime they didn't commit. Sometimes I go to death

548
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: row to interview these people. I'm going back to death

549
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 3: row in Texas to visit one of them next month,

550
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 3: a guy named Rob Will who's innocent, but he's on

551
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 3: death row. And so that'll keep you in check, right, yeah,

552
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 3: I mean talk about putting gratitude in your attitude. So

553
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 3: every week is another story that is absolutely mind blowing

554
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 3: because you sit there and you go, how can Temagon Kenzu,

555
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 3: for instance, right be in prison in Michigan now almost

556
00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 3: thirty seven years when everyone knows and knew back then

557
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 3: that he was almost five hundred miles away at the

558
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 3: time the murder was committed, and yet there he sits

559
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 3: thirty seven years.

560
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: So what is the reason then? Because they like to

561
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: close these cases, right, they don't want to be wrong

562
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: our system of justice.

563
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 3: My Amanda Knox is like my little sister. We actually

564
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: call each other.

565
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: H I've actually hung up with her a couple of times.

566
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: She's great, amazing, She speaks so eloquently about this. She

567
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: talks about how we should have. What we have is

568
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: an adversarial system of justice, which means the prosecution wants

569
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: to win. Of course, the defense wants to win. That's

570
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: true in any system. But what we should have is

571
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: an inquisitorial system of justice, as many other countries do,

572
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: where you're what you're trying to do is get to

573
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: the truth. You're not trying to win.

574
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 3: But as so many of our ele of our top

575
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 3: people in the justice system, DA's and judges are elected

576
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 3: and for them it it's good to have a lot

577
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 3: of convictions, right, you look to at least have the opting.

578
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: You get replaced if you're the guy who is losing

579
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: all your cases as a DA. Right, and think about this,

580
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: to hire the profile the case right, small community, grizzly murder,

581
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: whatever it might be, it becomes the pissing contest. A

582
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: man is the perfect example of this.

583
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 3: Right, And then it becomes trial by media and among

584
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 3: other things, And it also becomes the thing where there's

585
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 3: pressure from the community, from your bosses, from your maybe

586
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 3: even from your own family to solve this case. And

587
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 3: if you do, there's good news. You're gonna be the newspaper, right,

588
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: You're gonna be heralded, you might get promoted, you might

589
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 3: have an opportunity to move up to a different position

590
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 3: that you'd like to have, run for a higher office, etc.

591
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 3: You have prosecutors that brag about having a perfect record

592
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 3: in murder cases, right, meaning a perfect record of getting

593
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 3: everyone convicted. But in this country where you have states

594
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 3: like Louisiana and Florida, where for every seven people in

595
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,479
Speaker 3: each of those states that's been executed, three have been

596
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 3: found innocent on death row.

597
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: That's a real stup. Huh. And that doesn't even include

598
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: the ones. That's too many, that's any is too many?

599
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: How about that? I mean, yeah, any is too many? Yes,

600
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: you're right. I mean if that was you, that would

601
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: be horrible.

602
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: This is what I say to people who are in

603
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 3: favorite of death penalty. Yeah, they're not even to use

604
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 3: a baseball analogy, they're not even batting seven hundred. It

605
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 3: might not be six hundred. And these are death penalty cases, right,

606
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: the ones that should be most scrutinized.

607
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: So they're not even good.

608
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 3: They're not even good at it. They're not even getting

609
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 3: it right, like I said, nowhere close to seventy percent

610
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 3: of the time. And think about this.

611
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: If you're on death row and the whole system is

612
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: stacked against you, once you're convicted, right, you're no longer

613
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: innocent until I'm doing that is a whole different thing.

614
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: Now you're guilty until proven innocent. Although I believe the

615
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 3: once you're arrested, that whole thing kicks in. But I

616
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 3: think those are just words for the most part of

617
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 3: our system. But so, yeah, I you're on death row,

618
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 3: how the hell are you going to prove that you're innocent?

619
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: It's almost impossible.

620
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: So if all those people, almost all of whom were

621
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: very poor, were able to find a way to prove

622
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: their innocent from inside death row, how many others were

623
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 3: there that weren't able to Who are mentally incapacitated, who

624
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 3: are who have given up hope, who are not in

625
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 3: a position or just don't can't find the evidence or

626
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 3: the evidence is you know, and you interview the guy

627
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: just to give you an idea of how fucked up

628
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: our system is. Unwrongful conviction. I interviewed a guy named

629
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 3: Anthony Ipanovich. I spoke about him when I was on

630
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 3: Joe Rogan and Anthony was convicted of a crime and

631
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 3: didn't commit in the state of Ohio. Since the death,

632
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 3: the state said the DNA evidence had been lost. This

633
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 3: was a there's a violent crime that had a lot

634
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 3: of DNA, right, I think it was. I think it

635
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: was a rape murder, And yeah it was. And thirty

636
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 3: two years later the DNA is found. It was stored

637
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 3: in the wrong place or whatever. It was right under

638
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 3: here the whole time, like.

639
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: Somebody somehow or other. The defense got ahold of it

640
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: and they got it tested and it proved what he

641
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,479
Speaker 1: had been saying all LNG is that he was innocent.

642
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: So he was freed right after thirty two years gets worse.

643
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: So he's home for seventeen eighteen months. He's a grandfather

644
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 1: now right, sitting on the porch with his grandchildren. One

645
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: day he said, eight cop cars, well up or a

646
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: dozen whatever it was. Tons of cops jump out and

647
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: re arrest him. He's like, what are you doing. They

648
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: just couldn't let it go. They took him back to

649
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: death throw because somebody.

650
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 3: In the halls of power of justice quote unquote, we

651
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 3: don't even call it a justice system. We would call

652
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 3: it a legal system because this little justice in it.

653
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 3: But somebody had discovered that there's a statute in Ohio

654
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: which we're working to overturn now that says that the

655
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 3: only person that can question DNA testing is the incarcerated

656
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 3: person themself. And because he didn't request it, because he

657
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: had been told it didn't exist, the fact that it

658
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 3: had been found and proved his innocent and proved his

659
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: innocence was not relevant, and they put him right back

660
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 3: on death row, which is where he is right now

661
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: as we're sitting here having this conversation.

662
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: Where is the logic in that there's none. They know

663
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: he didn't do it, but they put him back on

664
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: death row. So they really just went and found a

665
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: loophole because they wanted to be right. And now we

666
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: have to work to change the law in Ohio. That's

667
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: a systemic cultural problem with the whole thing.

668
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 3: Right, and let us not forget that the Supreme Court,

669
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 3: thanks to Justice Scalia, I think he was the one

670
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: who wrote the opinion or whatever it said that actual

671
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 3: innocence is not a reason to be freed.

672
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: From death rout. That's proof right there.

673
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that doesn't They prefer finality over justice. So

674
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: and let us also reflect for a moment that in

675
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: almost every case, well in which yes, in almost every case,

676
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: because there are exceptions to this, and I can't explain that,

677
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 3: but in almost every case in which someone is wrongfully

678
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 3: convicted of a crime, a violent crime, the actual perpetrator

679
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 3: remains free.

680
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: So now you're not only is this guy's life ruined,

681
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: but someone who likely kills people is potentially doing it again.

682
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 3: I mean, there are certainly people who you know, do

683
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 3: these things once and then never again. But I think,

684
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: you know, it's a hard one to prove, but I

685
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 3: think it's extremely likely and logical that if someone does

686
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 3: something like this and gets away with it, they have

687
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: that proclivity, they probably will do it again. I mean,

688
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 3: especially if they get away with it when they're young,

689
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: when you're still you know, more likely to do these things.

690
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 3: We know that people age out of crime, which is

691
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 3: why it's so insane that we have this aging prison

692
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: population in America. It's hard not to think about. It

693
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 3: goes back to what we're talking about before about being lucky.

694
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 3: The juxtaposition, you know, like if it was a split.

695
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: Screen and.

696
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 3: You know, I'm in my nice two bedroom apartment with

697
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 3: a view and a dog and an espresso machine. And

698
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 3: if I want to go for a walk afterwards, that's

699
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 3: what I'm gonna go do. If I want to go

700
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 3: to the gym whatever. Right, like most people, I enjoy

701
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: a level of freedom that is incredible. And then you know,

702
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 3: on the other side of the screen, you have this

703
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 3: guy who did nothing wrong in his life, who is

704
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 3: in a five by nine foot cell the size of

705
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 3: your bathroom at home, most likely, if you're having an

706
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 3: abnormal sized bathroom like most people, with nothing but like

707
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 3: steel and concrete, and it's hot and it smells terrible,

708
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 3: and it's noisy, and it's miserable and the food stinks,

709
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 3: and you're just trapped there with nothing but hardship, deprivation

710
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 3: and misery. And it's like, why do we do it

711
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 3: like this? Why, Like we don't need a death penalty,

712
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 3: and we certainly don't need to have two million people

713
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 3: in prison. It's like, you know, we lock well, we

714
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: lock black people up here at six times the rate

715
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 3: of white people. We also lock more black people up

716
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 3: per capita in America to this very day than South

717
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: Africa during apartheid, and Jesus you know, and inside those numbers.

718
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 3: You know, like many people know, we have four point

719
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 3: four percent of the world's population, but like twenty five

720
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 3: percent of the world's prison population, thirty three percent of

721
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 3: the world's female prison population. One out of every three

722
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 3: women in the prison cell right now as we're sitting here,

723
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 3: is in this country, the freest country in the world.

724
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: Those numbers don't add up. Yeah, and I hate to

725
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: just barrage you with statistics, but no, I mean those

726
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: things matter to kind of paint a clearer picture for

727
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: me in this moment right now, just the how wrong

728
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: they are. And then you know, I'll just give you

729
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: one more, right, I mean, look, the social scientists that

730
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: studied this, you know, from Ivy League schools or whatever,

731
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: estimate that between four and seven percent of people in

732
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: prison in America are innocent.

733
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 3: I believe that's very low because I think they're not

734
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 3: taking certain things into account, like the guilty plea.

735
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: Problem, and.

736
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 3: Which is the fact that a lot of people plead

737
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: guilty when they're innocent because they're looking at too harsh

738
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 3: because the alternative the risk is total total it could

739
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 3: be looking at life in prison.

740
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: And so.

741
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 3: I think that you know, it's probably a lot closer

742
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 3: to ten percent at least. But even if you take

743
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 3: a mid case scenario of the most conservative estimates, which

744
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 3: is four to seven percent. If you take five and

745
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 3: a half percent and say, well, there's two million people

746
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 3: plus in prison in America right now, that's a lot

747
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 3: of people. That's one hundred, one hundred and ten thousand people, right,

748
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 3: And that's on the low estimate and doesn't even include

749
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 3: the fact that we have all these people in jail,

750
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 3: hundreds of thousand people in jail right now in America

751
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 3: who haven't been convicted of anything. They just can't the

752
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 3: two poor to post bail, so they're just stuck there.

753
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 3: And like, and jails are you know, most people think

754
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 3: jail sounds more benign than prison. Most jails are much

755
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: more dangerous than even the maximum security prisons that you

756
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 3: hear about, right, because it's pure chaos.

757
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: Just some podn town somewhere and some sheriff who's running

758
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: out how they want to And that sounds horrifying. Pote

759
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: On town.

760
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: How about right across the river from here, Rikers Island,

761
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 3: right where, yeah, we're right there, y, yeah, where Since

762
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 3: our new mayor took office, twenty nine people inmates have

763
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 3: lost their lives there, and we don't really use the

764
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 3: word inmate anymore. Twenty nine incarcerated men have lost their lives,

765
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 3: mostly through murder well waiting trial at Rikers Island, just

766
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 3: since this new mayor took office. That's twenty nine. That's

767
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 3: twenty nine people who had lives and families and dreams,

768
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 3: and you know, and some of them are guilty. You know,

769
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 3: I'm not only everybody's innocent. Some of them are guilty,

770
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: but guilty of what. Some of them are guilty of

771
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 3: shoplifting or jumping a turnstile or you know, drinking a

772
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 3: beer in the park at night or something. You know,

773
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 3: like they got arrested for nuisance crimes, but they were

774
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: too poor to post bail, which is why I've been

775
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,919
Speaker 3: deeply connected to the bail reform movement for many years

776
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 3: as well.

777
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's clear to me that the work that

778
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: you're doing, which is also very admirable, is helping. But what,

779
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: in your opinion, is it going to actually literally take

780
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 1: in a grand scheme of things to make this problem

781
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: go away.

782
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 3: Awareness is probably the first thing, right, But even if

783
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 3: we all knew, well, then we have to once people know.

784
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: That starts a ripple effect. Right.

785
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 3: It's why I started the podcast, the Wrongful Conviction Podcast,

786
00:38:52,239 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 3: is to make potential jurors more thoughtful, right, more ware

787
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 3: of the problems that exist in our system, and less

788
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 3: likely to therefore just vote to convict because it seems

789
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: like that would be the reason why you would be there,

790
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 3: which is what.

791
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: Most people think.

792
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 3: So and then if you extend that out, you know,

793
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 3: people ask people what can I do? Well, what you

794
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 3: can do is you can, of course, you can post

795
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 3: about it and talk about it and do what you

796
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 3: can on that level. You can also vote, and it

797
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 3: sounds like a cliche, but vote in local elections, right,

798
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 3: vote in DA races, voting prosecutor, I mean judge races,

799
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 3: things like that. Look at these candidates. Your vote means

800
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 3: so much in those races. I mean you should vote,

801
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 3: you know, presidential races too. But when there's a small

802
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 3: number of people voting, your vote is you know, super important. Yeah,

803
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 3: pull some weight. I mean some of these races have

804
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 3: come down to one vote. I mean, it's not hyperbole.

805
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

806
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 3: So if we can elect better people, and if we

807
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 3: can you know, throw out of office people, who are

808
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 3: you know, these conservative uote unquote tough on crime, which

809
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,439
Speaker 3: is a nonsensical thing. They're not tough on crime, they're

810
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: tough on people. You know, the places that have the

811
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 3: highest crime rates are all the ones that have the

812
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 3: most conservative prosecutors. And in places where we've had prosecutors

813
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 3: come in who have taken alternative approaches, the crime goes down.

814
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: You know, it's a very simple thing. Pain and I

815
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 3: talk about this all the time. And like I said,

816
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: I do a lot of public speaking. So if you

817
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 3: if you you know, if you're interested, you can contact me,

818
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 3: and I'm always interested in doing that. You can awesome

819
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 3: dm me at It's Jason flam Or even I'll put

820
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 3: my email address in here right now, it's Jason dot

821
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 3: Flom at Lava Records dot com. We know what causes crime,

822
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 3: and we know what prevents crime. It's not what you

823
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 3: think what causes crime.

824
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: Desperation. Desperation. Desperation causes crime.

825
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense, and it's a big word right

826
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 3: under that. When people say, what about mental health, I'd

827
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 3: say that's desperation.

828
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: Right. If you have severe enough mental health challenges and

829
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: no one's helping you with them, then it's not illogical

830
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: to think that you're going to act out in a

831
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 1: way that we as society go, Hey, that's a crime.

832
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: You mentioned going back to the root of the crime

833
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: and it being related to desperation and mental illness sometimes

834
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: and these factors. Were you getting at that maybe we

835
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 1: should solve that problem.

836
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 3: Yes, So what causes crime is desperation and what prevents

837
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 3: crime is hope. And so it's not hard when you

838
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 3: think of it in those terms to see what I mean,

839
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: Because when you have people who live in desperate poverty

840
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 3: without any opportunity, where they're being harassed by police, where

841
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 3: there's gunshots in their neighborhood from people who are you know,

842
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 3: on the other side of the law whatever, where they're

843
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 3: witnessing you know, traumatic they're having traumatic experiences, witnessing violence

844
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 3: day in and day out. I'm reading that book by

845
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 3: Coaches his last name, called Between the World and Me.

846
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 3: It's incredible how that it puts a fine point on this,

847
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 3: but so many things do. But so eventually, if you

848
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 3: don't see a way out of that, it's not illogical

849
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 3: that you will resort to it itself. For sure, you'll,

850
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 3: you know, you'll do what you need to do to

851
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 3: survive or to feel like you're giving yourself, like I said,

852
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 3: a way out. And look, many of the most prominent

853
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 3: members of our society who came from that type of background.

854
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 3: We're involved in selling drugs, or we're involved in, you know,

855
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 3: some other activities which you know, the entrepreneurial spirit is

856
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 3: what drives them to success in the corporate world or

857
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 3: in the music world or entertainment or whatever. And those

858
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 3: that same gene sort of drives you to do what

859
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 3: you have to do to make it when you're in

860
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 3: an in a situation where you know there doesn't seem

861
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 3: to be, you know, other than maybe sports or music

862
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 3: a way out. You know, where you're dealing with terrible

863
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 3: schools and terrible hardships, and you know your father's in prison,

864
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 3: as too many fathers are in this country. Goes back

865
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 3: to that problem, right, We know that that cycle, right,

866
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 3: the number one thing that determines whether a child will

867
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 3: end up in prisons, whether they've had a parent in prison.

868
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 3: So by locking up generations of black people for crimes

869
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 3: that white people get away with all the time, is

870
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 3: perpetuating that cycle. So if you create hope on the

871
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,959
Speaker 3: other hand, by establishing social programs. There are simple things

872
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 3: you can do. By the way that this has been proven.

873
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: This is not just me that if you do nothing

874
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 3: else but fix the lights in the poorest neighborhood and

875
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 3: whatever city you live in, right, if you do nothing

876
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 3: but pick the garbage up off the streets. I don't

877
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 3: mean you, but the city right, or the town or anybody.

878
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 3: If you establish a green space or a community center,

879
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 3: or even put in a taco stand where people can

880
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 3: gather and meet and you know, and find commonality, find

881
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 3: common ground, crime goes down dramatically just on the basis

882
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 3: of those things. And it goes back to what I'm saying,

883
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 3: It reduces desperation, it creates hope, and crime goes down.

884
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 3: So we know that that's what works. What do we

885
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 3: see in city after city, including New York City right now,

886
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 3: money being pulled from libraries, being pulled from after school programs,

887
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 3: being pulled from sports.

888
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're just saying, give a shit, be

889
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,879
Speaker 1: a better human. Yeah, I just got a T shirt

890
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: that says be a good fucking human. Yet, just like

891
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: we know that police don't make us safe, right they did,

892
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: we'd be the safest society and the history of the world.

893
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 1: We spend more money on police and in prisons than

894
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: any society ever in the aftery of the world. He's safe, right.

895
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 3: The crime goes up and down globally. It doesn't go

896
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 3: up locally nationally close. It goes up and down, you know,

897
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 3: ebbs and flows for various reasons, and I'm not smart

898
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 3: enough to figure it out, and freakonomics, they had a

899
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: whole theory about that. But the fact is that's not

900
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 3: what makes us safe. I mean, I say it over

901
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 3: and over again. Police don't prevent crime, right, and they

902
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 3: rarely solve crime crimes.

903
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: So you know, how do they make us safe? They don't.

904
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: We'll close some cases though, close some cases, but too

905
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: often they're wrong, you know, and it's a very small

906
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: percentage of cases that get closed anyway. So the thing is,

907
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,439
Speaker 1: you know, we need to we need to do what's

908
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: been been tried and is being tried in cities around

909
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: this country, which is alternatives to policing right where you know,

910
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 1: we should not be.

911
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 3: Tasking the police with doing things that they have no training.

912
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then and that's most of what they do. Right.

913
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,240
Speaker 3: The number one and two reasons for interactions of police

914
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 3: and the public are homelessness and traffic in fractions.

915
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: I mean, in all the doom and gloom of the

916
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: problems right on a on a human level, in the

917
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: grand scheme of things, do you think that there is

918
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: hope at all? Yeah? Yeah, Yeah, I think there's hope.

919
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: I'm a I mean, and I know that might just

920
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: be a mentality, like, but do you do you see

921
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: a path that we get better? Like this? You know?

922
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 3: Now, it's funny because, like I said, many years ago,

923
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 3: New York he did a story about me and this

924
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 3: this journalist named John Seabrook. He said that I have

925
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 3: a look on my face of disappointed optimism.

926
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: I thought, you do it. That's what he said, disappointed.

927
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: That's pretty spot on, right.

928
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

929
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 3: So but no, I still do have hope. I mean,

930
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 3: I I often say I've seen too many miracles to

931
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 3: stop leading, to stop leaving.

932
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: Yes, so yeah, And is that what reminds you when

933
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: you when you when you when it happens, right, it

934
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: takes somebody.

935
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 3: When I was a kid, and I was idealistic, and

936
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 3: I was looking to change these things, you know, in

937
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 3: my young thirties, and this guy puts his arm around

938
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 3: me and says, kid, it takes thirty years to change anything,

939
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 3: and now here it is thirty years later. And you know,

940
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 3: I've worked on drug decriminalization, among other things, and you

941
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 3: can buy weed in Washington Square Park from an author

942
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 3: rized cellar instead of getting hitting ahead with the baton

943
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 3: by a cop and then dragged off to jail. Right,

944
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 3: So like it's there is progress. Our prison population is down,

945
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 3: you know, slightly. It needs to go down. I think

946
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,479
Speaker 3: I think we can reduce our prison population by at

947
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 3: least eighty percent tomorrow and have no negative impact on

948
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 3: public safety impact. We have a positive impact on public

949
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 3: safety short and long term, but especially long term. So

950
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 3: I do have hope, and I think, you know, if

951
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 3: we can, if we can really look the young generation

952
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 3: of today, and you know, my kids are part of it.

953
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 3: My daughter teaches, been teaching in prisons for years and

954
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 3: years and she, by the way, I have to plug this.

955
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 3: Her new podcast is called Erase the Murder of Alma Sands,

956
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 3: and it's the story of the first murder trial in

957
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 3: American history, at which, by the way, that the guy

958
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 3: was guilty as fuck, but the defense team the murder victim.

959
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 3: It deals with misogyny and class and everything like that, right,

960
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 3: because the victim was not a prominent person, but the murderer,

961
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 3: who was her lover, was part of a very wealthy family,

962
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 3: and so his family hired for the defense Alexander Hamilton

963
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 3: and Aaron Burr. And so what you'll hear in this

964
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 3: podcast it's called Erase the Murder of Alma Sands.

965
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: And what you'll hear is the actual trial because.

966
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 3: My daughter Allison found the transcript amazing, and you'll find

967
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 3: out some things that you may not want to know

968
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 3: about Hamilton and Burr. We all know was like you know,

969
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 3: it was not a good gun.

970
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 1: Turns out pieces.

971
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 3: It turns out they were willing to do a lot

972
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 3: of bad things in order to exonerate their guilty client.

973
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 3: And this was the trial, as she says, it's the

974
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 3: most it's it's the most famous murder trial you never

975
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 3: heard of because it was the first one. And a

976
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 3: lot of the things that we talked about today, there's

977
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 3: still problems that our system came from that trial. And yours,

978
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 3: truly is Judge John Lansick. So I get to say

979
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 3: overruled and a lot which is really fun that you're

980
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 3: one line, Yeah, we need one more take I'm not

981
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 3: an actor your Yeah, no, I had to do a

982
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 3: multi do you do it under the direction of my daughter?

983
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: It was pretty I need a gavel man. It's overruled, overruled. Yeah,

984
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: you gotta be it's like stern different. That's pretty good.

985
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: I have to say a bunch of times. If you

986
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: want to help and you give a ship, what would

987
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: you suggest a listener to do that would make a

988
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: difference at all. First of all, thank you for listening,

989
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: you know, and if you've listened this far, then you

990
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: probably have hopefully learned some stuff you didn't already know.

991
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 1: Stuck on the tarmac somewhere.

992
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 3: Get you connect it, or in the traffic jam, Sorry

993
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 3: about the traffic, you know, we actually uh yeah, with

994
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,959
Speaker 3: us podcasters, we like traffic. So one of the first

995
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 3: things you can do is when you get that annoying

996
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 3: jury duty notice.

997
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 1: In the mail, throw it away.

998
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 3: Don't listen to pain serve serve on jury's. Yeah, if

999
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 3: you're listening to us now, then you're much more educated

1000
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 3: than ninety percent of the other people that are out there.

1001
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: I see.

1002
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 3: And we need you to be on a jury and

1003
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 3: be you know, awake and aware because the life you

1004
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 3: save could save. You know, there's that great saying that

1005
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 3: it's better that ten guilty men go free than that

1006
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 3: one innocent should suffer. And I think everyone would agree

1007
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 3: if that one innocent was somebody they loved, so and

1008
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 3: everybody who's in that defender's chair as somebody that they

1009
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 3: love and think about it too, like even somebody could

1010
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 3: be technically guilty of a crime, but you might think

1011
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 3: that crime shouldn't really be a crime, right, drug possession

1012
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 3: or some other ridiculous.

1013
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: Thing, and you don't have to convict them. You can.

1014
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 3: It's called civil disobedience. You can exercise you right and

1015
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 3: just say, you know what, not guilty.

1016
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: You can just disagree. You just say not guilty, and

1017
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: that's it. It only takes one first interesting point because

1018
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's you know, complete common knowledge.

1019
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Yeah, that's good to know.

1020
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 3: So so serve on the jury's encourage other people to

1021
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 3: do so. Spread the word, you know, with with among

1022
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 3: your friend group, whatever whatever form that takes.

1023
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: You know.

1024
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:48,879
Speaker 3: I think there are organizations you can look up. One

1025
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 3: of the ones I think is one of the most

1026
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 3: important ones is an organization called Civil Rights Core.

1027
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 1: I'll tell you this.

1028
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,959
Speaker 3: Another thing you can do today right now that's free,

1029
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,320
Speaker 3: is there's a newsletter called Alex A L e. C.

1030
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 3: S Apostrophe s alex Coppaganda newsletter. Copaganda is what the

1031
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,240
Speaker 3: media engages in as the copaganda.

1032
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, you got it, you.

1033
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 3: Got it, So subscribe to that blog. It's fantastic and

1034
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 3: there's so much to be learned from that. And then

1035
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 3: you know, check out check out more podcasts like if

1036
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,919
Speaker 3: You're if You've if We've gotten your attention, check it out,

1037
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 3: you know, learn more. You know, you might find a

1038
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 3: case even on on my original show rompla compaction that

1039
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 3: that touches you in such a way that you want

1040
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 3: to get involved. You can write to people, you can

1041
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 3: you can go to the Douglas Project. Right there's a

1042
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 3: thing called Douglas Project named after Frederick Douglass that is

1043
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 3: an organization relatively new that was founded with the idea

1044
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 3: that we can help to bring people inside of prisons

1045
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 3: and break that, you know, break break down that invisible

1046
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 3: wall between people and the outside people on the inside.

1047
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 3: That you can write letters, you can volunteer, you can

1048
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 3: establish you can create hope for somebody who's in a

1049
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 3: hopeless place.

1050
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: Well, I think that all the work you've done and

1051
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: continue to do is inspiring and it's a pretty badass

1052
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, I definitely got something

1053
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 1: from it, and it kind of leaves me with the

1054
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: lingering thought that we can all do something and big

1055
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: or small, it still matters. Yeah. So, I but I

1056
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: appreciate your time today, and uh, it's been fun and

1057
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 1: I've I've learned more stats than I'll probably remember. I'll

1058
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: have to go write them down. You may have to

1059
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: listen to your own podcast, I might, you know, Yeah,

1060
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 1: that would help to listen to yours first. We might

1061
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: put me a while.

1062
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, we can put crim notes in the flip notes

1063
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 3: in there, crem notes, whatever the hell you call that.

1064
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: I do watch out your see your daughter's podcast. The

1065
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: daughter's podcast is erased. Okay, I'm gonna do that one

1066
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 1: first because I'm curious. Yeah, yeah, dude, it's good. It's

1067
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 1: really good.

1068
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 3: It's getting a lot of attention, and it's going to

1069
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 3: be a real rest's excitedly really exciting. So yeah, yeah, so, uh, listen,

1070
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 3: I just want to thank everybody for taking the time

1071
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 3: to listen. I know you got other things to do,

1072
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 3: and uh, you know. Look, I'm a fan of this

1073
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 3: guy here, Payne, So I like, I like being on

1074
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 3: a show, and I think maybe we'll, uh, we'll figure

1075
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 3: out some some other hills we can climb together. Yeah,

1076
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 3: fucking around and find out. Yeah, let's fuck around and

1077
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 3: find out done.

1078
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: Cheers.

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Speaker 4: Talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV and

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Speaker 4: iHeart podcast created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For Tenderfoot TV,

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Speaker 4: executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive

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Speaker 4: producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are

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Speaker 4: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. With original music by Makeup

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Speaker 4: and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington,

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Speaker 4: Sean Nurney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wilde for Coohedo. Production

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Speaker 4: support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing

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Speaker 4: and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover

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Speaker 4: art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website

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Speaker 4: talkingtodeathpodcast dot com.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.

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Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you

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Speaker 1: want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses. You can subscribe

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Speaker 1: to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts, or go to tenderfootplus

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Speaker 1: dot com