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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and one in eight women say they've

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Speaker 1: secretly voted differently than their partners. We have such a

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Speaker 1: great show for you today. Vice presidential nominee Minnesota Governor

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Speaker 1: Tim Walls stops by to tell us what it's like

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Speaker 1: in the home stretch. Then we'll talk to Yale professor

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Speaker 1: Timothy Snyder about how the media is playing into the

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Speaker 1: fascist handbook. Lastly, we will have a bonus conversation with

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Speaker 1: the economists Stephen Mazie about the courts. But first the news.

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Speaker 2: So, Mollie, I was scrolling through Twitter last night. I

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Speaker 2: heard Donald Trump's talking to Tucker Carlson, which always fills

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Speaker 2: my heart with sadness, and then I heard what they said,

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Speaker 2: and it horrified me.

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Speaker 3: Is it weird for you to see Liz Cheney? That'd

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Speaker 3: be Dick cheney repulsive little daughter running against you with

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Speaker 3: Kamala Harris.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it hurts Kamala a lot. Actually, Look,

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Speaker 4: she's a deranged person. But the reason she couldn't send

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Speaker 4: me is that she always wanted to go to war

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Speaker 4: with people I don't want to go to war. She

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Speaker 4: wanted to go. She wanted to stay in Syria. I

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Speaker 4: took him out. She wanted to stay in Iraq.

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Speaker 5: I took him out.

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Speaker 4: I mean, if we're up to her, we'd be in

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Speaker 4: fifty different countries.

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Speaker 2: She's a radical war hawk.

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Speaker 4: Let's put her with a rifle standing there with nine

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Speaker 4: barrel shooting at her. Okay, let's see how she feels

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Speaker 4: about it. You know, when the guns are trained in

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Speaker 4: her face. You know, there were all warhawks when they're

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Speaker 4: sitting in Washington in a nice building, saying, oh, gee,

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Speaker 4: you will, let's send Let's send ten thousand troops right

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Speaker 4: into the mouth of the enemy. But she's a stupid person.

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Speaker 4: And I used to have I have meetings with a

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Speaker 4: lot of people, and she always wanted to go to

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Speaker 4: war with people.

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Speaker 1: So the point of that is that it certainly sounded

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Speaker 1: to me like Donald Trump was musing about having the

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Speaker 1: guns pointed at Liz Cheney's face and threatening her life. Now,

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Speaker 1: Trump's defenders, which is everyone on Twitter and all of

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Speaker 1: the conservative media, were furious because they said it was

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Speaker 1: clipped and that the full context, which we actually played

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Speaker 1: for you earlier, shows that in fact, he was not

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Speaker 1: threatening Liz Cheney. He was talking about how much he

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Speaker 1: hates wore. I don't know. I mean, I feel like

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Speaker 1: you should just stay away from talking about killing people

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Speaker 1: by a firing squad either way. And the fact that

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Speaker 1: you know, again like so much Trump's plaining, he didn't

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Speaker 1: really mean to say that, he said it this way. Also,

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Speaker 1: I want to add that Trump has a group of

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Speaker 1: really angry fans, many of whom have a lot of weapons.

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Speaker 1: So when he muses about shooting people, it's not good.

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Speaker 1: It's not good. That is this is my hottest take.

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Speaker 1: He should not do that. It's not good. It's really scary.

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Speaker 1: It feels like an invitation to something bad.

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Speaker 2: Sure does, So what's shift gears too? Instead of bad? Too?

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Speaker 2: Stupid as all hell. Trump loves filing lawsuits famously. He

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Speaker 2: files more of them than almost anyone in public life.

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Speaker 2: What do you see here, Molly?

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Speaker 1: This is a little bit the same. Trump gets angry

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Speaker 1: when his quotes are taken out of context. If he

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Speaker 1: can take offense for something that he will, And he

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Speaker 1: and his people are suing CBS for ten billion dollars

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Speaker 1: in damages. It seems like a lot for alleged partisan

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Speaker 1: and unlawful acts of election and voter interference. Now, Trump

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Speaker 1: says everything that he doesn't like his voter interference, right,

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Speaker 1: like the Russian investigation election interference, because that's sort of

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Speaker 1: his thing. So he said that CBS, you know, they

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Speaker 1: sort of edited a question in sixty minutes that Harris

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Speaker 1: had a sort of snappier answer to. I don't even

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Speaker 1: really get the drama here, but his people got very

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Speaker 1: angry about this. He is suing in the North District

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Speaker 1: of Texas, and he's alleging that there were two different

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Speaker 1: versions of Harris's response to a question about the Israel

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Speaker 1: Helmas War. He's suing in this North District of Texas

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Speaker 1: because he knows he'll get a judge that is favorable

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Speaker 1: for his rulings because Trump has Trump judges who do

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Speaker 1: what he wants. The judges in Texas have done a

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Speaker 1: lot for Trump. So you know, maybe this works, maybe

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Speaker 1: it doesn't, but I don't think judge shopping is not

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Speaker 1: how any of this is supposed to go.

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Speaker 2: So we have some early voting data. You want to

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Speaker 2: explain it to the listeners, Molly.

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Speaker 1: I want to like caution on early voting data. All

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Speaker 1: you can tell from it, and it depends on the states.

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Speaker 1: Some states you can't even tell this, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of states you can only tell the partisan breakup. And

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Speaker 1: for example, some states like Nevada, if you have a

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Speaker 1: driver's license and you're newly registered, now we have automatic

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Speaker 1: voter registration with driver's licenses, a lot of times those

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Speaker 1: kids get registered as independents. That doesn't necessarily mean that

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Speaker 1: they're independent. It just means they don't have a partisan

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Speaker 1: affiliation yet and maybe never well, so I would say

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Speaker 1: it's too early to know anything. But one of the

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Speaker 1: trends that we're seeing reported by NBC Newses Decision Desk

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Speaker 1: is this that they analyzed this state voter data as

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Speaker 1: of October thirtieth, and there are signs of an influx

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Speaker 1: of new female Democratic voters in Pennsylvania. And this is

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Speaker 1: the part that's not as good new male Republican voters

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Speaker 1: in Arizona. So these are voters who did not show

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Speaker 1: up in twenty twenty, so they would not have been

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Speaker 1: polled for right, because this is shifting electorate. Remember they're

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Speaker 1: basing their turnout model these posters on previous general elections,

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Speaker 1: not midterms, previous presidential elections. So a lot of times

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty electorate is what pollsters are using for

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Speaker 1: this election, and these new voters would not necessarily have

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Speaker 1: been pulled, so that may change the way the results

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Speaker 1: turn out. And they so, and we don't know about before,

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Speaker 1: So we'll see what happens. This could be a very

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Speaker 1: good sign for Democrats because Harris has to win Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: but it could also be a good sign for Republicans

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Speaker 1: because Trump needs to win Arizona. Now that said Harris,

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Speaker 1: as long as she wins Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, she can

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Speaker 1: lose either Arizona or Nevada. I think so. I don't

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Speaker 1: think she has to win all the sun both states,

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Speaker 1: but anyway, so we'll see what happens. But again we'll

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Speaker 1: know soon.

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Speaker 2: There is another horrible, horrible story in the aftermath of

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump helping set up to have ro fall. What

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Speaker 2: are you seeing in this horrible story that I wish

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Speaker 2: I could forget?

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Speaker 1: So? Pro Publica has been doing really great reporting on

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Speaker 1: these women who have died in Texas because of the

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Speaker 1: abortion ban. Remember the Texas abortion ban was enacted a

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Speaker 1: year before the fall of row SB eight. State Bill

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Speaker 1: eight was put into action in twenty twenty one because

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Speaker 1: the Republicans in the state legislature were so hot to

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Speaker 1: get it in there. And remember, it actually went to

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court on the shadow docket and they let

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Speaker 1: it stand. So there's just a lot more horror stories

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Speaker 1: coming out of Texas because they've had a much longer

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Speaker 1: abortion ban than other places. So this is another story

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Speaker 1: of a woman. She's eighteen years old, pregnant, miscarrying, and

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Speaker 1: she ends up dying of sepsis because she can't get

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Speaker 1: treated and they finally admit her, and they wouldn't treat

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Speaker 1: her because they thought that baby was still alive and

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Speaker 1: they didn't want to go to jail, and it's just

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Speaker 1: really dark. There's a really important point in this, which

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Speaker 1: is if you're a woman in a state with a

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Speaker 1: band like this, you end up getting bopped around from

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Speaker 1: different hospitals and people don't want to treat you and

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Speaker 1: you really don't get the care that you need, and

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Speaker 1: now we're seeing women die from it.

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Speaker 2: So Maali, one of the things we come to realize

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Speaker 2: is a lot of the young voters in the selection

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Speaker 2: were ten or eleven years old when the Access Hollywood

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Speaker 2: tape first hit. So they were not aware that mister

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Speaker 2: Trump talked of women in such a way of grabbing

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Speaker 2: them by the pussy. But now TikTok is making them

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Speaker 2: aware of this. What are you seeing here?

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Speaker 1: I hate this story because it's like how anyone could

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Speaker 1: forget this is just beyond me. But basically, Republicans, young people,

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Speaker 1: you know it was eight years ago. The guy's been

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Speaker 1: running for president for almost a decade. Now TikTok is

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Speaker 1: resurfacing this video and the audio of Trump musing about

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Speaker 1: if you're a star, they let you do it, you

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Speaker 1: can do anything. We all know this sort of really

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Speaker 1: dark and grim monologue about sexually assaulting women.

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Speaker 2: What are you talking about? It's just locker room talk, And.

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Speaker 1: Now younger people know about it too because of TikTok.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations to the Chinese government for allowing it to air.

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Speaker 1: Tim Wallas is the governor of Minnesota and the vice

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Speaker 1: presidential nominee Molly How are you, hi, Governor?

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Speaker 5: I'm standing tall, steel, tons of energy, went out running

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Speaker 5: in Detroit this morning already and ready to bring this

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Speaker 5: thing home.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about what Donald Trump said about

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Speaker 1: Liz Cheney yesterday?

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Speaker 5: Look, it's horrific. Not surprising. He's done this, whether it's

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Speaker 5: subtly or backhandedly, his whole time chaos division, you know,

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Speaker 5: violent rhetoric. We saw it, of course, what he did

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Speaker 5: to our fellow citizens in in Puerto Rico over the

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Speaker 5: over the weekend. But look, more than anything, I think,

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Speaker 5: and I hope voters hear this. We don't have to

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Speaker 5: live this way we have And you saw it on

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Speaker 5: the National Mall with Kamala Harris. How a president talks,

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Speaker 5: how a president talks about unifying us, How a president

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Speaker 5: lays out plans to do list of things for the

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Speaker 5: American public. How the grace and the dignity and the

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Speaker 5: you know, the inclusiveness of that. So I think when

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump says this, I think take him seriously, and

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Speaker 5: I feel, you know, I feel the pain that comes

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Speaker 5: with for Liz Cheney because this is dangerous rhetoric. But

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Speaker 5: it also inspires us that the alternative is so much brighter,

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Speaker 5: the alternative is so much more hopeful, And those who

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Speaker 5: are just tired of this drama, just tired of seeing

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Speaker 5: him on TV and doing these kind of things, the

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Speaker 5: antidote lies right in front of us. In the next

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Speaker 5: one hundred hours or so, to get out the vote.

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Speaker 5: And let's just put an end this.

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Speaker 1: I knew you when what's it like? You know, you

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Speaker 1: are the governor of a big state, but now you

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Speaker 1: are a phenomenon. What is it? Is it very different?

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Speaker 1: What's it like?

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Speaker 5: No, it's a privilege. And what it's done, Molly, is

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Speaker 5: it just reinforced to me what I already knew. We

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Speaker 5: have so much more in common. The Vice President says that.

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Speaker 5: But I'm telling you, I've had the privilege of traveling

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Speaker 5: to every corner of the country to get out with folks,

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Speaker 5: to listen to them, to hear their hopes and dreams,

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Speaker 5: to hear their frustrations. And this campaign is just in

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Speaker 5: every corner. Our ground game is so good, the volunteers

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Speaker 5: who are working on at the enthusiasm and the thing

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Speaker 5: that I said, we talk about when we see our supporters,

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Speaker 5: it is a sense of joy, It is a sense

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Speaker 5: of hopefulness. And I feel like I'm the same guy.

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Speaker 5: I got a few more miles on me, I know

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Speaker 5: a few more people. But I think what I always

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Speaker 5: believed is is that people just want the goodness of

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Speaker 5: this country. And I'm really pleased about this that I

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Speaker 5: won't lie The teachers have been showing up in pretty

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Speaker 5: big numbers because they said, you know, it's only taking

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Speaker 5: us two hundred and fifty years to get a public

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Speaker 5: school teacher on a ticket, so they've been excited. But

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Speaker 5: it's a lot of just regular folks that look, this

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Speaker 5: can be this way. You got two middle class kids,

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Speaker 5: one from Oakland, one from real Nebraska trying to take

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Speaker 5: a positive message. So thanks for asking. It's been great.

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Speaker 5: I think I'm the same guy, but I'm even more

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Speaker 5: optimistic than I was before.

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Speaker 1: How are the kids as distressful being on the trail?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what is that like?

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Speaker 5: Well, you are kind to ask. No, they are fantastic,

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Speaker 5: and I appreciate justin the one thing I said was

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Speaker 5: is especially like with Gus, this country's just wrapped their

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Speaker 5: arms around Gus. I see people that they're like, I'm

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Speaker 5: voting for Gus's dad, and you know, I still see

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Speaker 5: them say that. And Hope has been a morale captain

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Speaker 5: is what she calls. She took her to leave of

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Speaker 5: absence to come with me. She's out on the trail.

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Speaker 5: She keeps me grounded. I think you know she's connected

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Speaker 5: with the twenty somethings, the gen Z. She's been along

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Speaker 5: with this team. You know, these campaigns are run by

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Speaker 5: youth because they have the ability to stay up all

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Speaker 5: night and sleep on the floor. But my kids have

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Speaker 5: been great. Gus is living a senior in high school's lives.

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Speaker 5: He's playing varsity volleyball, trying to get through another algebra

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Speaker 5: cloud and that kind of thing. But they've been great.

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Speaker 5: But the American public has just been so great on

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Speaker 5: how they embrace them. And of course Gwen is a

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Speaker 5: phenomenon in herself out there just going everywhere across the country.

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Speaker 5: I think she's really connecting.

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Speaker 1: Are you scared? Does it feel scary? I mean there's

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Speaker 1: like a part of this country that is really wants

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Speaker 1: this other vision. Is it scary? No?

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Speaker 5: And I said, for us, is that we know what

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Speaker 5: our vision is. We know what the positive piece of

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Speaker 5: this is. We feel confident in this and it's a

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Speaker 5: privilege to be a part of this. Look, it's always

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Speaker 5: going to be difficult, those who fought to protect this democracy,

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Speaker 5: those who fought to form it. We're at a critical

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Speaker 5: stage and I tell people the anxiety and I would

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Speaker 5: encourage people of these next four days that the surest

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Speaker 5: care for this anxiety is to go into action, even

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Speaker 5: if it's right, you know, knocking on a door, making

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Speaker 5: a few phone calls, if you can drive people to

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Speaker 5: the polls, if you're there to do anything, that's action.

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Speaker 5: And I think for me and my family, we have

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Speaker 5: been in constant motion. You know, since early August on

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Speaker 5: this we have been able to do things. And I

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Speaker 5: have been in front of the American public that just

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Speaker 5: inspires me. You know, we were in Asheville a couple

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Speaker 5: of nights ago. We've been down there right before Helene,

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Speaker 5: and you know, we waited and the community said, no,

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Speaker 5: come back. They packed the Orange Peel, a music venue.

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Speaker 5: We had bands playing. We had that community turn out

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Speaker 5: in huge numbers. A resiliency of Asheville is just the

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Speaker 5: embodiment of what this country is. And Donald Trump wants

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Speaker 5: to tell us his country broken. Donald Trump said, it's

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Speaker 5: the garbage can of America. Donald Trump said, you know,

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Speaker 5: we have to have him to make things great. Ashville

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Speaker 5: doesn't need Donald Trump to make them great. They're great

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Speaker 5: right now. What they need is federal government and others

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Speaker 5: to continue to provide the resources necessary things that Donald

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Speaker 5: Trump never did cut the funding, threatened to not give

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Speaker 5: Blue States Resources. Kamala Harris has reinspired people that are

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Speaker 5: our politics can be good, hopeful, joyful and effective. And

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Speaker 5: that for me, that keeps me going. So anybody out

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Speaker 5: there's got any anxiety, just go down sign up for

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Speaker 5: a Shifted calling. It'll reinspire you.

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania is the most stay and they have more volunteers.

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Speaker 1: In Pennsylvania they have I think six volunteers for every

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Speaker 1: door that needs to be knocked.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's awesome folks that are out there.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like there's grounds well when you talk

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Speaker 1: to people?

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Speaker 5: I mean yeah, yesterday morning I was in Bucks County

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Speaker 5: and stopped by Temple at de Vali with you know,

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Speaker 5: some of our South Asian are Hindu American folks. Huge excitement,

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Speaker 5: huge optimism, you know. I think it's the timing of

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Speaker 5: that was right, that's the victory of lightness over darkness,

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Speaker 5: of knowledge over ignorance. And they were there together. So

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Speaker 5: I feel it out there Bucks Counties, you know, kind

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Speaker 5: of ground zero. We all know about it. I'm just

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Speaker 5: seeing the volunteers and it's the attitude of the volunteers.

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Speaker 5: You can't fake this stuff. I've been doing this long

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Speaker 5: enough that do you do rallies and things like that. Look,

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Speaker 5: rallies don't necessarily win the election, but rallies are a

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Speaker 5: place where people gather as community and express their joy

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Speaker 5: and optimism. And these things are rocking. We're in ann Arbor, Michigan.

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Speaker 5: I think there's about twenty thousand people. The other night,

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Speaker 5: beautiful fall night. The trees are lit up, they're golden.

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Speaker 5: Maggie Rodgers is singing that community is out, arm in arm.

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Speaker 5: This is the way it should be. And the contrast

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Speaker 5: to that, to Madison Square Garden. Man, it couldn't have

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Speaker 5: been greater.

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Speaker 1: When you got this job, you didn't know how to

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Speaker 1: read a prompter. I spent a lot of time thinking

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Speaker 1: about reading a prompter for obvious reasons, because when I'm

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Speaker 1: on television, did you learn how to read the prompter?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what did you find? You know? You were

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Speaker 1: like thrown into the deep end a little bit. How

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Speaker 1: do you do it? Well?

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Speaker 5: I'll tell you. It speaks volumes to this campaign. And

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Speaker 5: how quickly this is, you know, unprecedented, how it had

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Speaker 5: to stand up. I'm surrounded by the best professionals that

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Speaker 5: you could imagine. They had me ready, they taught me,

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Speaker 5: they were briefing me and they let me be me,

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Speaker 5: which caused them some headaches at times. I will acknowledge that,

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Speaker 5: but it also gave them some of what you know,

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Speaker 5: this joy that I think part of this is is

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Speaker 5: the partnership. The Vice President and I have a good partnership.

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Speaker 5: She's the thing I wish more people would know is

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Speaker 5: she is so dang funny. I gravitate towards funny people

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Speaker 5: because I think it speaks volumes, and she is and

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Speaker 5: I just keep finding things about them. But no, I

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Speaker 5: think this is a testament to the team. It's a

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Speaker 5: testament to how they stood up a campaign in the

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Speaker 5: shortest time in American history. I think, on the grandest

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Speaker 5: scale at the most critical time, and here we set

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Speaker 5: on the doorstep of now executing this campaign. I want

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Speaker 5: to make that clear to everyone. We're going to win

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Speaker 5: this thing. We've got the we've got everything ready, but

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Speaker 5: we need to get the ball across finish line. Here.

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Speaker 5: We got to get over the goal line. We got

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Speaker 5: to finish this thing, and that means the boat. So

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Speaker 5: I'm ready to go. I've learned a lot. I think

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Speaker 5: I've gotten better at that prompter, but we can all learn.

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Speaker 1: You have all of these kids that you have mentored

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Speaker 1: and Fox knew is Wroten's story yesterday about how a

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Speaker 1: kid was struggling with drugs and alcohol and you told

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Speaker 1: them to play ball, and they misrepresented the story because

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Speaker 1: the kid was actually saying that ball had saved his life,

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Speaker 1: the sport had saved his life, and you had And

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can just talk about with these

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Speaker 1: kids who aren't seem really committed to you.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this has been the I think the most gratifying

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Speaker 5: part of this whole thing. These kids were very organic

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Speaker 5: and came out. I know Dan who you're talking about,

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Speaker 5: and I had lost touch with him, and he just reignited.

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Speaker 5: This was before I was in on this. For whatever reason.

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Speaker 5: Earlier in the year we reconnected and he told me

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Speaker 5: for the first time. He came and got a meeting

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Speaker 5: with me and said in there and he said, well,

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Speaker 5: I just need to tell you this. I think you

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Speaker 5: saved my life. When he came here. He was going

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Speaker 5: to drop out of school and I brought him back.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't about the ball, it was about not leaving school.

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Speaker 5: It was about coming back. He turned out to be

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Speaker 5: a fantastic football player. But that's not why I brought

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Speaker 5: him back. I brought him back for him. He needed

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Speaker 5: to be around those positive influences of other kids. He

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Speaker 5: needed to not leave school. And he's successful now, you know,

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Speaker 5: he's dealt with all of us deal doing these things.

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Speaker 5: And I just, I mean, I did not see this story,

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Speaker 5: but I don't understand why Box News. You know, they're

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Speaker 5: always rooting for failure. This is a good story that

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Speaker 5: transcends politics. Just a really good story that the kid

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Speaker 5: was there, and I'm just glad there. And that's what

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Speaker 5: we do. Someone told me, you know, the mister Rogers thing.

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Speaker 5: We always try and find the helpers, and I hope

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Speaker 5: my job was to be a helper and so excited

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Speaker 5: about that piece of it.

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Speaker 1: And these kids did campaign for you and helped you

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Speaker 1: run when you ran for com gross right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, some of them did. This kid. I think they're

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Speaker 5: probably douking about didn't see the story, but it sounds

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Speaker 5: like the one probably did. Some of them did. They

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Speaker 5: helped me run the first time they came back. These

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Speaker 5: were talented people. My first campaign was four young women,

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Speaker 5: reaching college graduates who were from man Cato. They knew

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Speaker 5: more about politics than I did. By far. They understood

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Speaker 5: others work. They had worked on campaigns I had, and

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Speaker 5: they just came back and help. They wanted to make

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Speaker 5: a difference.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, Thank you, Governor.

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Speaker 5: You're the best, Molly, thanks for having me. Let's win

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Speaker 5: this thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, good luck. Are you concerned about Project

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five and how awful Trump's second term could be? Well,

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Speaker 1: so are we, which is why we teamed up with

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Speaker 1: iHeart to make a limited series with the experts on

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Speaker 1: what a disaster Project twenty twenty five would be for

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Speaker 1: America's future. Right now, we have just released the final

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Speaker 1: episode of this five episode series. They're all available by

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Speaker 1: looking up Molly Jong Fast Project twenty twenty five on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: and if you are more of a podcast person and

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Speaker 1: not say a YouTuber, you can hit play and put

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Speaker 1: your phone in the lock screen and it will play

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Speaker 1: back just like the podcast. All five episodes are online now.

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Speaker 1: We need to educate Americans on what Trump's second term

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Speaker 1: would or could do to this country, so please watch

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Speaker 1: it and spread the word. Timothy Schnyder is a Richard S.

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Speaker 1: Levigne Professor of History at Yale University and the author

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Speaker 1: of On Freedom welcome back, Timothy Schneider. I think of

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Speaker 1: you as like something happened and I knew there was

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Speaker 1: only one person that I could talk to who would

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Speaker 1: know exactly how to explain it. And you, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you've been in such demands since then. And I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about the Washington Post obeying in advance.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, will you answer the question by asking it? I mean,

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Speaker 6: obeying advance is the concept we need. It's that term

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Speaker 6: which I put in on Tyranneus Chapter one comes from German.

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Speaker 6: Comes from German for a reason, right, it's for AlSi ossam.

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Speaker 6: It means running in German. It literally means like running

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Speaker 6: in advance in order to be obedient. The reason why

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Speaker 6: it's important is that it's a lesson that the Germans

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Speaker 6: of the Austrians learned looking backward, which was, if we

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Speaker 6: hadn't conceded in advance, Hitler would not have come to

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Speaker 6: power in the first place. If we hadn't given our

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Speaker 6: power away before we had to, we would have never

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Speaker 6: ended up where we ended up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want you to like explain to us how

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Speaker 1: you got here. Because you're a historian. You've come to

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Speaker 1: this moment in American life through the past, and I'm

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Speaker 1: hoping you could just give us a minute or two

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Speaker 1: on that.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 6: I come to this American moment as a historian, which

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Speaker 6: means that I know that lots of bad things are possible,

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Speaker 6: and also lots of good.

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Speaker 5: Things are possible.

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00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 6: I know that every moment is pregnant with all kinds

435
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 6: of things, imagined and unimagined, and some of them are

436
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,160
Speaker 6: very bad and some are very good. In any moment

437
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,880
Speaker 6: in history, there are things that are possible that people

438
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,119
Speaker 6: don't realize. And so that's like, that's any history. And

439
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 6: can say that I come to the US as not

440
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 6: an americanist. I come to the US as somebody who

441
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 6: spends a lot of mental and physical time in Ukraine

442
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 6: and other parts of Eastern Europe. I come to somebody

443
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 6: who's thought a lot of written about, and written a

444
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 6: lot about contemporary Russia. And one of my guiding lights

445
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 6: is that Russia is not a foreign country. Russia is

446
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 6: a place where we could go if we follow the

447
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 6: same kinds of lines. And then I come to these

448
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 6: US problems from the thirties and forties, which I've written

449
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 6: about in other books, and I try to be lively

450
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 6: to the notion that the thing that you can head

451
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 6: things off, right, And I think historians ought to be

452
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 6: talking about these things, not least because we can offer

453
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 6: we can offer things, but also because it's not like

454
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 6: everybody else is doing such a great job.

455
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, the thing that I'm struck by is

456
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: we're in this moment right where we don't know what's

457
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 1: going to happen in five days. But the scariest scenario

458
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 1: to me is Russia, because there was a moment when

459
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: Russia was pregnant with possibility. I mean, what didn't have

460
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 1: the long history that America did, but it could have

461
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 1: been something other than what it became.

462
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it became It became a fake democracy surrounded

463
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 6: where the president was surrounded by oligarchs who eventually took over,

464
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 6: and then there was a weeding out of oligarchs and

465
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 6: you end up with Putin. It became a ritualized system

466
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 6: where everybody goes to the ballot box even though they

467
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 6: know it doesn't make a difference. It came a place

468
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 6: where there's only really one source of media. And you know,

469
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 6: since that happened to Russia, we have basically moved in

470
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 6: that direction on all of those fronts and That's why,

471
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 6: like I think, Russia is not our opposite. Russia is

472
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 6: this thing that we might become.

473
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 5: I agree with you.

474
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm always truck by with

475
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: Trump is that he just says what he wants to do.

476
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 6: I mean, from the Greeks forward, the argument has been

477
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 6: put forth correctly that oligarchs in one country are going

478
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 6: to have more in common with ali garks in other

479
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 6: countries than they are going to have in common with

480
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 6: their people. Trump and Musk are both obvious about this,

481
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 6: like they and Putin are in some kind of you know,

482
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 6: they're in some kind of boy scout troop where they

483
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 6: climb up their own private and they have conversations which

484
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 6: are about their own private fantasies. The thing is that

485
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 6: their own private fantasies involve things like invading countries, destroying

486
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 6: our minds social media, and creating an oligarchy. And naturally,

487
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 6: though Trump is going to care more about what they

488
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 6: think than he cares about what the rest of us think.

489
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 6: And you're right, we just have to listen to him

490
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 6: say it.

491
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: It seems really clear to me that they've managed to

492
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: get their supporters to embrace a lot of the anti

493
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: democratic things that might have been harder to sell in

494
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 1: previous generations.

495
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, it really helps that you brought Russian to the conversation,

496
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 6: because what one thing Russia has done, which Vance and

497
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 6: Trump are working on, is making people believe the government

498
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 6: can't do anything. So fins believe, of course government can't

499
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 6: do anything for you. Of course government is just there

500
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 6: for the olive arcs, and we're just two or three

501
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 6: steps away from that with Vance and Trump, you know,

502
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 6: basically telling us that, especially Vance and government is totally impotent.

503
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 6: It can't really do anything. And once you accept that,

504
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 6: it's not like politics goes away. Altics just becomes purely horizontal.

505
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 6: It's just a matter of us and them. And then

506
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 6: you get used to the idea that you're going to

507
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 6: be rallied against use Trump's term the enemy, the enemy

508
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 6: with it. So that's where it goes, right, And the

509
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 6: whole time, you think you're your own agent, you think

510
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 6: you're being free, whereas in fact you're just being piloted

511
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 6: along in this process.

512
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and sort of when Putin came on the scene,

513
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: he basically picked the winners and losers in the economy.

514
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: He made billionaires, and he bankrupted the federal government. Ultimately,

515
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: it wasn't a federal you know, the state government. That

516
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: is I think the fantasy of Donald Trump.

517
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, and this is I'm coming out to Filler angle.

518
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 6: This is one of the big things which I think

519
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 6: no one is talking about because folks on the left

520
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 6: don't want to talk about business, and folks don't quite

521
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 6: grab this. But Putin was horrible for Russian business. He

522
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 6: was moable for the Russian economy. Small and medium sized

523
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 6: businesses can't make it in an extra legal, oligarchical type situation.

524
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 6: It's only going to be, as you say, the winners

525
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 6: that are picked. So, you know, unless your cousin is

526
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 6: Jared Kushner, you're going to have hard time in a

527
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 6: Trump economy because they're going to fire everybody who normally

528
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 6: gives you the permits. You're going to be dealing with

529
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 6: forty thousand civil servants who were loyalists and have been

530
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 6: instructed only to help certain people, and things are going

531
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 6: to stop working and so and this is something like

532
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 6: those all those Republican admirers of Orbon and all those

533
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 6: public admirers of Putin should remember those are poor countries,

534
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 6: and they are poor countries. They're poor countries that should

535
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 6: be rich countries, but they're poor because of the leadership structure,

536
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 6: and that shouldn't be out of leadership structure.

537
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 5: You want.

538
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: I think so much about Project twenty twenty five, and

539
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: in it is this idea that the president will control

540
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: the FED.

541
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean that's one of that's one of the

542
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 6: top five ways that Project twenty twenty five would.

543
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 5: Destroy the American equiomy.

544
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 6: But it touches on that the checks and balances right,

545
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 6: of which we have ever fewer, but one of them

546
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 6: is that the FED is pretty much still independent. If

547
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 6: you make the FED just like a gas pedal that

548
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 6: the president can push on, that'll be convenient for him,

549
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 6: but it'll be a nightmare for everybody else.

550
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a quick way to make the country in oligarchy, right,

551
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: because if he says lower interest rates because I have

552
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: an election coming, I mean, it is the quickest way

553
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: to a banana republic.

554
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 6: I mean, it's in a race with others because because

555
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 6: if you also say I'm going to love to go

556
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 6: after my political opponents, or I'm not going to use

557
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 6: the irs to go after billionaires, or we're not going

558
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 6: to enforce laws on banks, right, it's going to be

559
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 6: a race, because, as we saw in two thousand and eight,

560
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 6: there can be a banking crisis. We're very close to

561
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,719
Speaker 6: that time. Because the regulation is so flimsy. The stock

562
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 6: market itself can lose credibility if too many favorites are played,

563
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 6: Foreign investors can can go away. So there are a

564
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 6: whole bunch of ways that twenty twenty five is actually

565
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 6: inconsistent with the kind of market economy that we're used to,

566
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 6: and is consistent with like what you say, a banana

567
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 6: republic market economy where the few winners are our cousins

568
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 6: and buddies and basically everybody else is losing.

569
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: It's funny because it's like, we're having this conversation just

570
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: a few days from the twenty twenty four election. You know,

571
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 1: we don't know what's going to happen, but it certainly

572
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: feels right now, and since this entire election cycle is

573
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: based on vibes, it certainly feels like women are going

574
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: to come out and hopefully save us all from the

575
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: end of American democracy this cycle. And again, we don't know,

576
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: we may not, we may all be you know, head

577
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,239
Speaker 1: in hands in a week, but you can't have a

578
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: two party system when one party no longer believes in

579
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: democratic norms.

580
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:36,719
Speaker 6: I'm trying to get the women part into that.

581
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think women voters that the thought is

582
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: that there's such a gender discrepancy already. You know, it's

583
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,959
Speaker 1: ten points that it seems likely that women voters are

584
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: secretly voting for Harris.

585
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 6: Yes, I mean the thing you can't have is a

586
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 6: party which thinks that voting is a ritual and it's

587
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 6: or it's really limited to cert kinds of people, which

588
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 6: is where their party is headed. Right Like, I'm from Ohio.

589
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 5: I was just in Ohio.

590
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 6: They've gerrymandered the hell out of the state so it's

591
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 6: basically a one party state. And now they're trying to

592
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 6: have a cons social referendum to undoer to undo the

593
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 6: jerry vandering, which is being dealt with in all kinds

594
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 6: of like fantastically ORWELLI in ways that I wish the

595
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 6: oppressould write more about. You can get to a one

596
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 6: party state this way, right like, step by step by

597
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 6: step by step, because one party it never says like,

598
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 6: oh we're against democracy or against voting. You just kind

599
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 6: of chop chop, chop chop, chop. It's a shame we

600
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 6: only have two parties. So that puts a Democrat in

601
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 6: this really uncomfortable position that they have to simultaneously say, hey,

602
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 6: we're the future, but also hey we're the ones protecting

603
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 6: the system. That's uncomfortable. They've got to do both, whereas

604
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 6: the Republicans can be like, hey, there's no future, and

605
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 6: by the way, we're wrecking the system.

606
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean eventually what happens. Like the thing

607
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: that makes me feel a little opt you got me

608
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: on an optimistic day, is so my sense is that

609
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: Nikki Haley is trying to keep her powder drive for

610
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: a race in twenty eight I could see a world

611
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: where the party loses and Republicans decide that Nikki Haley

612
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: could theoretically be the heir apparent. I have a lot

613
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: of trouble imagining Nicki Haley ending American democracy, though, you know,

614
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: in four years, who knows. But there is a world

615
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: or is there a world? This is a question, And

616
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: is there a historical precedent for this where things just

617
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: sort of go back to sort of more normal, less

618
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: precarious democracy.

619
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I want to say that.

620
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 6: I mean, I agree with you that there are a

621
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 6: lot of good things at work, and they're like, even

622
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 6: though we're early a couple days away, there's still a

623
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 6: lot of good things that people can do. And if

624
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 6: people want to feel anxious, they should just go out

625
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 6: and do those good things, because those things not only

626
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 6: make a difference, but they make you feel a lot better.

627
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 6: In terms of coming back, I mean, it would help

628
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 6: if he got thumped, because the thing is that, I mean,

629
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 6: what happens he's going to claim. You want, if Kamalis

630
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 6: wins by twenty million votes, he's still going to say

631
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 6: that he won.

632
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 7: We can we can.

633
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 5: Factor that in.

634
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 6: There's almost certainly gonna be some kind of violence around

635
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 6: election day, we can factor that in. You know, some

636
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 6: crimes are predictable. But in terms of coming back, it's

637
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 6: kind of important that it would be better if he

638
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 6: lost in a clear way. It doesn't losing the clear way,

639
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 6: there's going to be all there's going to be a

640
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 6: mess between now in January and then a mess in

641
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 6: the Republican Party indefinitely.

642
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 5: But yes, you come back.

643
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 6: I mean Germany came back in a very in a

644
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 6: very impressive way. Japan came back in both of those cases,

645
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 6: especially in Germany, there's some kind of recognition that things

646
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 6: went wrong. And that's where I'm not sure Americans are

647
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 6: so good is it recognizing prior mistakes?

648
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: Say more about that, because the German personality is so different,

649
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: I think, or the cultural personality a foray into autocracy

650
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: is not the same as death cams. You know, part

651
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: of how they came back was that things had just

652
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: been so they just got beaten.

653
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, And that's that's one of the reasons why

654
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 6: you want to stop this process before it goes too far.

655
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 6: Because fascism by nature can only be can only be

656
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 6: defeated by some kind of higher force, Like it defines

657
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 6: itself as will and force, and so it has to

658
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 6: run into something. So you want to get to you

659
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 6: want to stop it before you get to the point

660
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 6: where you have to be that thing that it runs into,

661
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 6: because that's terrible.

662
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 5: That's a terrible solution.

663
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 6: But what I meant was more like a lot of

664
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 6: folks are committed to views in our country which are

665
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 6: not true, like the system doesn't work, or that Trump

666
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 6: one in twenty twenty. It's hard to do reconciliation without truth,

667
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 6: and so I think it's going to be you know,

668
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 6: it kind of requires eight or twelve good years, I

669
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 6: think for people to ask all of this if he

670
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 6: doesn't lose decisively.

671
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. I watched that Price presidential debate, the JD. Van's

672
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: debate in horror because I thought there is a person

673
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: who sells trump Ism in a way where you don't

674
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: totally know it's Trump.

675
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 4: Is.

676
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: Part of what has saved us is that Donald Trump

677
00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: has been so profoundly you know, just can't stop blurting

678
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: out the stuff he wants to do. Right. He's not

679
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: dishonest enough to be able to make it sound like

680
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: it's just you know, normal day in America. And I

681
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: think that has actually ultimately hurt him, at least with

682
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: the mainstream media.

683
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 6: It may have hurt him with the middle but it

684
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 6: helps him on the fringes. I mean, in twenty sixteen anyway,

685
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 6: there are a lot of people who never voted before

686
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 6: who voted because a Trump was saying those things, And

687
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 6: so I think it probably cuts both ways. With Vants,

688
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 6: I would agree in a general way, I think people

689
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 6: generally underestimate Advance. I think Vance is directly hooked into

690
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 6: the techno fascist world in a way that.

691
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 5: Is not Trump.

692
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 6: Vance is going to live for a while. Trump is not,

693
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 6: and I think the people who are betting on a

694
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 6: kind of techno fascist future, they're behind Vance rather than

695
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 6: behind Trump. Trump is just kind of means to an

696
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 6: end as far as they're concerned.

697
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: I think of Elon Muss is so much like Henry Ford.

698
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: Is there some kind of precedent for this.

699
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 6: It's broadly the case that new communications technology cheese break

700
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 6: up prior social orders and open up opportunities. Right, So

701
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 6: there were a lot of crazy people around the printing

702
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 6: press as well, although now we love books and radio

703
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 6: and amplification gave opportunities to fascists which hadn't hear before.

704
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 6: So in that sense, yes, but this is more powerful

705
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 6: because it's harder to shut out, and it presents itself

706
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 6: in many different guises, and in my view, the way

707
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 6: that it makes you a fascist has less to do

708
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 6: with the content and more to do with the medium itself.

709
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 6: The way that social media works in us, this kind

710
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 6: of call and response and the fear and approval. I

711
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 6: think it works at a kind of lower neurological level

712
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 6: than other stuff did, So in that sense, I think

713
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 6: it's new.

714
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: So do you think there is like the answer right,

715
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: there's clearly some amount of radicalization that is connected to

716
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 1: social media or to a sort of media that does

717
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: not have any kind of fact checking, right that where

718
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: things are were sort of in the truthiness era. Do

719
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: you think that's specific to the genre or do you

720
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: think that that is like, is there something to do

721
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: to stop it? Is a government regulation? Is it? I mean?

722
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 5: What is it?

723
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 1: Yeah?

724
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 6: I mean in the new book and on Freedom, I

725
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 6: write about this a lot. It's I think, you know,

726
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 6: we have to a be courageous enough to admit that

727
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 6: we believe in truth, at least as a suit B.

728
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 6: We have to think of factuality as something positive that

729
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 6: you have to create to remember, it doesn't grow from

730
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 6: the ground. There's no such thing as a free market,

731
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 6: and this sort of thing you have to actually plan

732
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 6: and you have to create it. You have to have

733
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 6: a political infrastructure which is favorable to factuality, which means

734
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 6: certain kinds of scives in schools and newspapers and so on.

735
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 6: And it's okay to spend some money on that because

736
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 6: we can't do democracy without facts and so like, there's

737
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 6: all this positive stuff before you get to the thing

738
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 6: which you said, which is that, of course these are monopolies, right,

739
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 6: they should be broken up. That's what the Sherman Act

740
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 6: is for. And even conservative economists like friedrypron Hayek would

741
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 6: would advocate this. They have to be broken up, they

742
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 6: have to be regulated, and there are all kinds of

743
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 6: creative ways to do that. I mean, we should be

744
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 6: applying our intelligence to the question of how to make

745
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 6: social media work better for the freedom of the average

746
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 6: American rather than standing back and marveling out of this

747
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 6: high technology because it's not high technology. It's basically like

748
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 6: beating pans together, just an incredibly high speed.

749
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: So interesting. I want you to explain why it's so

750
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 1: important to fight back, you know, at the personal level,

751
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: but also at the corporate level, Like can you just

752
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: because why what Bezos did is so dangerous?

753
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, the corporations in Nazi Germany got it wrong, that's

754
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 6: an established fact, and they ended up where they did

755
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 6: not want to be, some of them as criminals, but

756
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 6: almost all of them at Hitler's mercy. And we know

757
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 6: from the history of the decades since then that in

758
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 6: coup attempts and things like this, the attitude of the

759
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 6: corporations turns out to be very important. Approaching decisive, and

760
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 6: so can't say we don't have responsibility because those people,

761
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 6: in fact do we know historically have responsibility. What they

762
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 6: do matters as far as individuals right now, it's pretty simple.

763
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 6: The little things that we all are doing, like the canvassing,

764
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 6: the phone banking, the keyboarding, meeting with people in real life,

765
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 6: giving money, those things not only matter, but also they

766
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 6: make us feel better. Right Like, it's okay to be

767
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 6: afraid that Trump is going to win because bad things

768
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 6: will happen if he wins, but it's not really okay

769
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 6: to be anxious.

770
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 5: The US.

771
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 6: Anxiety is by making sure you're with somebody else and

772
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 6: you're actually doing something, because then you will feel better

773
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 6: and that'll be true no matter what happens.

774
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so important. Thank you, Thank you for joining us.

775
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: So interesting.

776
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 6: Really glad we could do it.

777
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 1: Stephen Mazie is a Supreme Court reporter at The Economist.

778
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics.

779
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 7: Steven, Thank you, Mollie. Great to be here.

780
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that you can explain to us. You cover

781
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court for The Economist with very smart and

782
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: you're very even, so I want you to explain to

783
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: us what the Supreme Court just did. And what it means.

784
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: Start with Virginia, then go to Pennsylvania.

785
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 7: Okay, so what is happening in Virginia is this. There

786
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 7: was a voter purge that was instigated, that was ordered

787
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 7: by the governor exactly ninety days before the election, which

788
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 7: might have been symbolic because there's a federal law that

789
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 7: says within ninety days of an election there can be

790
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 7: no systematic voter purges. And the justification was that these

791
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 7: were purportedly non citizens, sixteen hundred voters who had, according

792
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 7: to the State of Virginia, had declared that they were

793
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 7: not citizens and therefore should not be able to vote

794
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 7: in this election. And of course non citizens cannot vote

795
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 7: in American elections. It is a crime for them to

796
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 7: do so. But there are at least a few dozen,

797
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 7: if not more, of those sixteen hundred people who, it

798
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 7: has been proven, made a mistake. They didn't check a

799
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 7: box saying that they were citizens, or maybe they checked

800
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 7: a box saying they were non citizens. One of the

801
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 7: people who was found to be mistakenly taken off the

802
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 7: roles by this voter purge said, you know, it sucks

803
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 7: getting old, but I just, you know, missed it and

804
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 7: so the argument from the Department of Justice. So what

805
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 7: happened after the voter purge is that the Arn't of

806
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 7: Justice stepped in and said, this is illegal under this

807
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 7: federal law from nineteen ninety three, you can't, you know,

808
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 7: systematically purge voters from the roles so close to an election.

809
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 7: And a district court agreed and said, yeah, this is

810
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 7: not okay. You can have an individualized removal of particular

811
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 7: non citizens if you can prove that each one is

812
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 7: a non citizen, but you can't just kind of blanket

813
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 7: take off all these people and potentially catch eligible voters

814
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 7: in that dragnet. So that's what the district court said,

815
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 7: and the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals then heard an

816
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 7: appeal from Youngkin. The result was the same. The state

817
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 7: was ordered to put all sixteen hundred voters back on

818
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 7: the rolls. And then there was an appeal on the

819
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 7: shadow docket, which is the emergency, quick acting lightning docket

820
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 7: of the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court stepped in

821
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 7: and said, we're going to side with Virginia here. We're

822
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,240
Speaker 7: going to reinstate the voter purge for those sixteen hundred people.

823
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 7: So this happened on Tuesday of this week and when

824
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 7: they issued this order, When the Supreme Court issued this

825
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 7: order saying no, you need to keep those sixteen hundred

826
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 7: people off of the roles, there were three justices, notably

827
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 7: the democratically appointed.

828
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: Justices, right on partisan lines.

829
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, they said they dissented from that order, which means

830
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 7: it was a six to three decision along partisan lines,

831
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 7: with NOx explanation of why they rejected the reasoning of

832
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 7: the poor Circuit Court of Appeals and of the District

833
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 7: Court that originally said you need to restore these people

834
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 7: to the voter roles. So it was we're not talking

835
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 7: about a huge number of voters, but it's a it's

836
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 7: a highly partisan question in Virginia. And to have the

837
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 7: justices divide along partisan lines without saying why, I think

838
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 7: I said in the tweet that you were interested in

839
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 7: that this was a little ominous to me.

840
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 1: So part of the reason that they gave also was

841
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: that same day voter rage in Virginia.

842
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 7: Right, Yes, So if anyone has been taken off the

843
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 7: roles and their citizen and they want to, you know,

844
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 7: go on the day to the polls and show that

845
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 7: they are citizens, they can do that. So there is

846
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 7: a sort of backstop for those who have been unjustly

847
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 7: taken off the roles. But you know, that's that's some work,

848
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 7: and you have to bring your papers, and you have

849
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 7: to be prepared to date officials.

850
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: And it's also partisan interference on the shadow docket four

851
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: days before an election, tell me about Pennsylvania.

852
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 7: Pennsylvania, all right, So this is sort of like that

853
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 7: jiff of the boyfriend looking, you know, back toward the

854
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 7: woman and and ignoring is his girlfriend. Pennsylvania is when

855
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 7: he's looking away from. But that's where we should be looking.

856
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 7: Because of course, this presidential election is not going to

857
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 7: be decided by Virginia voters. It very well could be

858
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 7: decided by Pennsylvania voters. There's a case at the Serbine

859
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 7: Court right now on the shadow docket, which we could

860
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 7: have the results from any minute now. I think it

861
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 7: will be probably today, although it could be a day

862
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 7: or two from now. We're getting very close to Tuesday.

863
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 7: So the Pennsylvania case affects potentially tens of thousands of

864
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 7: ballots as opposed to sixteen hundred. And the question there

865
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 7: is whether if you, as a Pennsylvania voter, mail in

866
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 7: your ballot but you mess up. There are a series

867
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 7: of envelopes that you have to put your ballot in

868
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 7: and sign some of them and put others inside others. Yeah,

869
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 7: so if you forget this secrecy ballot as it's called,

870
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 7: and your ballot is called the naked ballot, even though

871
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 7: it's closed in another envelope, it's considered naked and it's

872
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 7: not eligible, it's not counted. So a few days ago,

873
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 7: a week ago, the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court ruled that

874
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 7: under state law, if you send back one of these

875
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 7: naked ballots, and the estimate is about one percent of

876
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 7: mail in ballots will be sort of messed up in

877
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 7: this way, you can go to your polling site and

878
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 7: file a provisional ballot in person on election day, and

879
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 7: if it's confirmed that your mail in ballot wasn't counted

880
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 7: because it's not valid, then your provisional ballot will be

881
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 7: counted and you'll get to vote. So that was it

882
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 7: was a four to three decision by the Pennsylvania State

883
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 7: Supreme Court, and I think it's it's a legitimate, difficult

884
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 7: question of state law, whether you know, voters should have

885
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 7: that opportunity under state law to make that change and

886
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 7: vote in person. But what's happening now is that the

887
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 7: RNC has petitioned, they has filed an emergency application to

888
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court saying, you need to correct this error

889
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 7: of the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court. They have misinterpreted what

890
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 7: the Pennsylvania legislature has said. And this is unconstitutional even

891
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 7: under the federal Constitution, because the Federal Constitution says that

892
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 7: only Congress and the States can determine election rules. It

893
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 7: doesn't say that state courts can. This is a theory

894
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 7: known as the independent state legislature theory that with very

895
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 7: few exceptions, state legislatures get to call the shots irrespective

896
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,959
Speaker 7: of what any other state official or state court might say.

897
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 7: And so they're asking the Supreme Court to kind of

898
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 7: declare what Pennsylvania state law actually is and to throw

899
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 7: out whatever ballots come in that are naked and not

900
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 7: give those people who tried to be absentee voters but

901
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 7: failed because they forgot one envelope prevent them from voting

902
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 7: in person on election day. Could this change the outcome

903
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 7: of the election, Probably not, because we're talking ten thousands,

904
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 7: But we've seen in the polls how close Pennsylvania is, right,

905
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 7: all right, And in.

906
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: Fact Trump won by point seven two percent, Biden won

907
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: by one point one seven.

908
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 7: Percent, which is a lot of voters, even though the

909
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 7: seems small, right, This is concerning a that it's happening

910
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 7: on the shadow docket where.

911
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: There's no accountability, right because we don't know who's seeing

912
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 1: what on the shadow docket. Right.

913
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 7: Well, we know that all the justices are seeing all

914
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 7: the briefs that come in from both sides. But what

915
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 7: we're not guaranteed, as we saw in the Virginia voter

916
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 7: purge case, is an explanation of when they make their

917
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 7: decision why they made it. And I think that was

918
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 7: a real error on the Court's part in not at

919
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 7: least giving some indication of why they reinstated that voter purge.

920
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 7: And I think it would be horribly irresponsible if when

921
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 7: they issue the decision the order in the Pennsylvania case,

922
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 7: if they don't say something about why, especially if they're

923
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 7: siding with the RNC and saying, yeah, these votes shouldn't count,

924
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 7: because this could potentially flip the election. And everyone knows that.

925
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 7: Even though Republicans are urging voters to vote by mail

926
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 7: more this cycle than last cycle, Democrats tend to have

927
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 7: the advantage with mail in ballots. We're more likely to

928
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,760
Speaker 7: mess up their ballots by not including a secretcy envelope

929
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 7: and are more likely to gain by having an opportunity

930
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 7: to vote with a provisional ballot on election day. So

931
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 7: the partisan valance here is pretty clear. There's not a

932
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 7: good sort of principled reason why they're siding with the RNC,

933
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 7: if in fact that's what they do. Which I still

934
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 7: have enough faith in the court and its decision making

935
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 7: around elections that it's not going to make the extraordinary

936
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 7: move of second guessing what the Pennsylvania Supreme Court has said.

937
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,760
Speaker 7: But if they do, they better explain why and explain

938
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 7: why clearly and persuasively.

939
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, talk me through what your worries are. Now.

940
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 7: My worries are actually more about what's going to happen

941
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 7: outside the courts than inside the courts. We saw in

942
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 7: twenty twenty that the course did a pretty good job

943
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 7: of taking garbage cases and throwing them in the garbage.

944
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 7: Like sixty four out of sixty five Trump and Trump

945
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 7: friend filed cases to try to overturn the election. We're

946
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 7: tossed out or we're decided we're bad arguments, and I

947
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 7: think that will hold again this time. As I said,

948
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 7: despite what happened in Virginia, I have some confidence that

949
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 7: there will be only maybe two or so justices who

950
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 7: side with the RNC and this Pennsylvania case. And I

951
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 7: don't think they want to, given how low their popularity is,

952
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 7: given how angry so many Americans are about what they've

953
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 7: done over the past few years, abortion rights, you know,

954
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 7: being a chief reason for dismay. I don't think they're

955
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 7: going to want to step into an election and you know,

956
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 7: be the definitive thumb on the scale they were the

957
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,959
Speaker 7: way they were in two thousand with Bush versus Gore.

958
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 7: That would be you know, if you think their popularity

959
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 7: is low now and their credibility is low now, I

960
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 7: don't think they could recover from that within a generation.

961
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 7: If they end up being the deciding factor in this

962
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,479
Speaker 7: extremely contentious, extremely important presidential race.

963
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's close, we know what they're going to do. Well,

964
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: we hope they don't do what we worry that they

965
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: might do, what I worry that they might do. I'll

966
00:48:58,360 --> 00:48:59,959
Speaker 1: just use eye sentences here.

967
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 7: I do think there's a scenario where I would be worried,

968
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 7: which is, if it comes down to Pennsylvania, and if

969
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 7: it comes down to like a few thousand votes, and

970
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 7: if those few thousand votes are challenged on a not

971
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 7: incredible theory of why they shouldn't count, then I think

972
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 7: it's a close case. And in a close case, partisans

973
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 7: are going to be partisan. That's what worries me. But

974
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 7: the chances of all those empirical things happening at once,

975
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 7: I think are still pretty low, even though the polls

976
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 7: look so close. You know, we could have Trump landslide

977
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,240
Speaker 7: on Tuesday. We could have a Harris landslide on Tuesday.

978
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're not going to have a Trump land slide

979
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: on Tuesday, but he could eke it out. I want

980
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: you to sort of explain to our listeners what the

981
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: next season of the Supreme Court looks like from what

982
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: cases you're seeing them taking. Just a sort of like

983
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 1: very kind of quick and dirty overview.

984
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 7: Oh sure, we don't have the same density of blockbusters,

985
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 7: thankfully we've had the past few years. We don't have

986
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 7: gun rights or on the docket. We don't have abortion

987
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 7: rights on the docket, although abortion could and probably will

988
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:15,959
Speaker 7: come back, like the abortion rulings from last spring. We're

989
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 7: both kind of kicking the can down the road. There

990
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 7: are already new attempts to challenge abortion pills by the

991
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 7: Red States as opposed to doctors who claim standing, and

992
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 7: that was shot down very easily by the court. So

993
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 7: there will be more claims to standing to challenge abortion medication.

994
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 7: I think emergency abortion will also probably come back. That

995
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 7: was the case out of Idaho last year. But as

996
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 7: to what's on the docket now, there are a few cases.

997
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 7: One in particular that is a culture war, very important

998
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 7: case that's going to be argued in early December, and

999
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 7: I think people will turn their attention to it once

1000
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 7: the election gets resolved, whenever that is. And this is

1001
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 7: a case involving healthcare for or trans youth Tennessee. The

1002
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 7: case involves a law in Tennessee that basically bans gender

1003
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 7: affirming healthcare for trans kids. And there are some like

1004
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 7: there's something like eighteen other states that have similar laws.

1005
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 7: Where you know, if you have a trans kid and

1006
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 7: you're in Iowa, where I come from, which used to

1007
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 7: be a blue state when I was growing up there, anyway,

1008
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 7: you have to drive to Minnesota to get healthcare for

1009
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 7: your trans boy or trans girl. So the case out

1010
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 7: of Tennessee asks whether it's constitutional for states to ban

1011
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 7: healthcare in this particular way, and it does so not

1012
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 7: out of you know, is this upholding trans rights or not.

1013
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,919
Speaker 7: It does so with sort of a neutral valance, which

1014
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 7: is under the protection clause of the fourteenth Amendment. Is

1015
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 7: it okay to ban the same kinds of healthcare provision

1016
00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 7: for trans kids that cisgender kids get? No, no problem.

1017
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 7: So is it okay to ban parmone therapy for only

1018
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 7: for trans kids but not for cisgender kids. And that's

1019
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 7: going to be, I think a really interesting case and

1020
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 7: I'll be watching especially just as Core such because he

1021
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 7: sort of broke type a few years ago in another

1022
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 7: case involving trans rights and said that if you're discriminated

1023
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 7: against in the workplace based on your gender identity, that's

1024
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 7: illegal under the Civil Rights Act because that's under discrimination

1025
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 7: and you can analyze it that way. We'll see if

1026
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 7: he has a way of thinking differently about this healthcare case.

1027
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 7: But that's that's I think the biggest blockbuster out there.

1028
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 7: There are some interesting ones also about involving the EPA

1029
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 7: that have already been argued and rules that they issue

1030
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 7: in terms of waste water.

1031
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank

1032
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: you for joining us so important. Keep your eyes on

1033
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court.

1034
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 7: I will and you're welcome all those times, and I'd

1035
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 7: be happy to come back. Thanks very much, Molly.

1036
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 2: No second Jesse Cannon by jun Fast One jd Vance

1037
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: dropped by The Joe Rogan Show for a three and

1038
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 2: a half hour talk with mister Rogan. He told the

1039
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 2: story of what he supposedly did when he heard that

1040
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 2: Trump had been shot out in Butler, Pennsylvania. I actually

1041
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 2: said it to the Didn't Happen of the Year Awards,

1042
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 2: a Twitter award show where they discuss who made up

1043
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 2: the biggest lie on the app each year.

1044
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. Is that a thing?

1045
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very funny thing they do every year.

1046
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,760
Speaker 2: The intries are absolutely hilarious because it's all people saying

1047
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 2: things that one didn't happen, like standing ovations and Walmarts

1048
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: for your baga hat. Yeah, so what are you seeing here?

1049
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: He just had trouble articulating things, right? What else did

1050
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: he do?

1051
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 2: He really like Joe Rogan did not give him hard questions.

1052
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,479
Speaker 2: There'd be so many times he would just like drop

1053
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 2: the ball. But he claimed that he was at a

1054
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: Midi golf course and always thought was that Trump gotsche

1055
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 2: he did. He claims he didn't see him get back up,

1056
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 2: which uh huh, and uh that he went home and

1057
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 2: loaded all his guns and stood in the door like

1058
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 2: a quote unquote century.

1059
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 4: Oh.

1060
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: I don't know this fucking guy. I mean, I think

1061
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 1: one of the biggest lies is that jd. Vance is

1062
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: good at this. I don't think he's that good at this.

1063
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: He does all of these questions where he yells at

1064
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: journalists for asking him questions, and then he yells at

1065
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 1: them some more. The point is he's way more unfavorable

1066
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: than he is favorable. Jd. Vance. His unfavorability is about

1067
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: forty four point eight. He has been just wildly unpopular.

1068
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: And I don't know. I mean, I guess they think

1069
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: he's very good at this because he does a lot

1070
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 1: of interviews, but there were certainly quite a lot of

1071
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: evidence to support the idea that he's really just not

1072
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: that great at this. That's it for this episode of

1073
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday

1074
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: to hear the best minds and politics make sense. Of

1075
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast, please send

1076
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,240
Speaker 1: it to a friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks

1077
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: for listening.