1 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: It was clearly skeletal remains of a human. It makes 2 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: me wonder what would happen if his son had not 3 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: made that discovery. I mean, would there be a whole 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: bunch of skulls and skeletons out in the woods. You 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: have all of these fragments, how do we figure out 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: who these people are? 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety six, authorities discovered thousands of human remains 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 2: on the property of a wealthy Indianapolis business owner. The 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: more investigators dug into the wooded grounds, the more they 10 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 2: found femurs, jawbones, ribs sticking out of a muddy embankment. 11 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 2: Police were in the midst of one of the most 12 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: prolific serial killers of our time. But the discovery of 13 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: human remains didn't lead to an arrectest. It didn't even 14 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 2: lead to an in depth investigation of who died on 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: the property. In fact, it took nearly thirty years to 16 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 2: reopen the case. But even now, does anyone really know 17 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: the truth of what happened at Fox Hollow Farm. I'm 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: Alan Lancelesser and this is America's crime Lab. This is 19 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: part two of the Fox Hollow Story. If you missed 20 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: part one, you'll want to go back and listen. Producer 21 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 2: Catherine Fenalosa is here, And when we left the story, 22 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: police were digging up hundreds of human bones at Fox Hollow. Meanwhile, 23 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: Herb Baumeister was away at the family lake house with 24 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 2: one of his kids. 25 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, and his wife Julie is worried about what he 26 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 3: might do because Herb knows that police have found human 27 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 3: remains behind the family home. So Julie gets an emergency 28 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: restraining order to have her son brought back to her. 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 2: Honestly, I still can't wrap my head around why the 30 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 2: police haven't brought in Herb for questioning, or at least 31 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: have him under surveillance. 32 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 3: You would think, right, based on everything that they've found 33 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 3: on the property. The police do go with this emergency 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: order in their hand. They go up to the lake 35 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 3: house and they see Herb and they talk to him 36 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 3: and they say we need to bring your son Eric 37 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 3: back and he says okay, and they leave. They don't 38 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 3: question him. 39 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: So Herb is just free. They don't question him. Nope, 40 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: what's the thinking there. 41 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 3: One of the excuses that law enforcement makes at the 42 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 3: time is, well, all of our resources were at the 43 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 3: Fox Hollow farm securing the property. And overseeing this whole 44 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 3: search of these remains that we really didn't have the 45 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 3: man power to surveil, and we didn't really have enough 46 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: evidence to bring him in for questioning. 47 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 2: I just think about urgency. You know, the bones will 48 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: be there there, continuing the search, not to slow that down, 49 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: but it does seem like a priority to get information 50 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: beyond the bones. Yes, while you can, because people can move, 51 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 2: whereas the yard is going to stay there. 52 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 3: So Herb is left by himself now, and Detective Steve 53 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 3: Ainsworth says, that's when Herb starts to panic. 54 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: And it was right after that that Baumeister realizes that 55 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: the jig is up, and then he heads to Canada. 56 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: So it seems like he's on the run. 57 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 3: Within a few days. Place in Ontario, Canada, see a 58 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 3: guy sleeping in his car, and they go to talk 59 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 3: to him, you know, to let him know that he's 60 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: got to move along. But then they noticed something in 61 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: his car. 62 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: They reported there at least one box full of videotapes 63 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: in the backseat of his car. 64 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: Videotapes. This is the mid nineties, when I'm picturing like 65 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: old school VHS. 66 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 3: Tapes, Yeah, exactly. I think Herb was known for filming 67 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 3: a lot of family events, and Steve says evidence photos 68 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 3: taken at Fox Hollow showed that there was video equipment 69 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 3: in the house. 70 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: There were two video recorders, one on top of each other, 71 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: plugged into each other so that he could dubbed tape. Now, 72 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: what are those tapes up? 73 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 3: Investigators suspect that Herb had hidden video cameras in the 74 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 3: ceiling of the basement pool area to secretly record whatever 75 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 3: was going on down there. 76 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: Are they blackmail tapes of people having sex with these guys? 77 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,559 Speaker 1: Are they snuff films? What exactly is on those tapes? 78 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: Because there reportedly was a whole lot of them. 79 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: So maybe when they see the box of tapes in 80 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: his car, maybe he was removing incriminating evidence. 81 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 3: The next day, Herb is located. 82 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: There are no videotapes in his car, and he's found dead. 83 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: He's found dead of a gunshot wound in a park. 84 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 3: Police say it's a suicide. He's left a rambling three 85 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 3: page note. 86 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: What's in the note? 87 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 3: So he mentions marriage trouble, he mentions that his business 88 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 3: is failing. He mentions a peanut butter sandwich. What There's 89 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 3: a lot in the note where he's kind of feeling 90 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 3: sorry for himself, not taking any personal responsibility for his 91 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 3: marriage troubles or his financial problems. He doesn't mention the 92 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: crimes at all. He doesn't express any guilt, remorse anything. 93 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 3: So now Herb is dead, he's really the one and 94 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: only suspect, and the police drop the case. 95 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 2: Wait wait, wait they drop the case. What about all 96 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: the people that are in the woods in herbs backyard. 97 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 3: At the time police say eight men who disappeared from 98 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 3: the Indianapolis nightclub scene were probably victims of her Baumeister. 99 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 3: But then they go on to say that the real 100 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 3: victims in this case are Julie and the three kids. 101 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: What I mean, I get that they may also be 102 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: victims in some way if they truly didn't know what 103 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 2: was going on. I mean, how traumatic. Absolutely, But I mean, 104 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: come on, there are all these people who died and 105 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: they're not even identified. Oh my god, I know. 106 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 3: So law enforcement takes the remains that they find and 107 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 3: keep in mind, a lot of these remains are just 108 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 3: little shards of bone. There are femurs, there's a jaw 109 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 3: bone with teeth. They take these bits of actual people 110 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 3: to the University of Indianapolis, and that's where they're stored. 111 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 2: And what do they tell the families of all these 112 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 2: men who went missing? 113 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 3: This is also shocking. They say, if you want to 114 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 3: know if your loved one was killed at Fox Hollow, 115 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 3: you can pay to have your DNA tested against the remains. Essentially, 116 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 3: like we're all done here? 117 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: What we also? Okay? I sorry, I'm just my mind 118 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: is blown right now because I mean, what is like 119 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 2: a government for but to do services like this where 120 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: there's potentially a mass murder or a series of who 121 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 2: knows how many murders? I mean, how do we know 122 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: how many people might be victims? And also we don't 123 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 2: even one hundred percent know that it was Herb who 124 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: did it? Like have they really gotten to the bottom 125 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: of it, he didn't admit to it. What evidence exactly 126 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: do they have? And then on top of that, each 127 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: of those remains would probably need to be tested. I 128 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: mean that costs money. How is like a random person 129 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: and supposed to fund that? 130 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is baffling. 131 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,119 Speaker 2: These are people who died. 132 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 3: Herb Baumeister was forty nine when he was found dead. 133 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: His wife, Julie, changes her name and she and the 134 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 3: kids move out of the house detectives and the corner 135 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 3: at the time move on to new cases, but the 136 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 3: families of the missing men are left with no answers. 137 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 3: And then one day in twenty twenty two, everything changes. 138 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 4: So at the time I was transporting for the City 139 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 4: of Indianapolis for the Coroner's office. 140 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 3: A young guy named Eric Pranger had recently gotten a 141 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 3: job with the City of Indianapolis Corner's office transporting bodies, 142 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 3: which basically means if someone dies at a crime scene 143 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: or in a nursing home but they have no family, 144 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 3: he goes and collects the body. 145 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 4: One night, it was he was kind of slow and 146 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 4: we were bored. We were just chatting about cold case 147 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 4: files and everything like that, and it dawned on me 148 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 4: that my cousin's a possible victim of her boumeister and 149 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 4: he's never been identified. 150 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: Who is Eric's cousin. 151 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 3: His name was Alan Livingstone. He was twenty seven years 152 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 3: old when he went missing in August of nineteen ninety three, 153 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 3: and the last time anyone saw him he was getting 154 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: into a car in Indianapolis. 155 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 4: He was a pretty fun going guy, loved a party, 156 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 4: always the center of attention. He would always put a 157 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 4: smile on your face. 158 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 3: Eric was only six when Alan went missing, and Alan 159 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 3: get this. Eric actually grew up down the street from 160 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 3: the Save a Lot store, you know, the business that 161 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 3: Herb and Julie Baumeister owned. 162 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 4: So I remember the thrift store shut down, and my 163 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 4: mom told me that the owner is the possible killer 164 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 4: of my cousin Alan, But I was too young to 165 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 4: really get in detail conversation. I didn't get deep into 166 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 4: it until I got into the funeral industry. 167 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 3: Eric goes to his aunt Sharon, who's Alan's mom, and 168 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 3: he starts to ask, tell me about the story. When 169 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 3: did you last see Alan? And she says, well, he 170 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: called me every single weekend and one weekend he didn't call, 171 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 3: and he was supposed to come over a couple of 172 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 3: days later and he never showed up. And that was 173 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 3: not Alan. She knew he was gay. She actually herself 174 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 3: was gay. The family had no problem with it. They 175 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 3: loved Alan's personality, his style. He was funny, he was 176 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 3: very caring. He wore big ear rings and tied I T. 177 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 3: Shirts and he really took care of his mom. And 178 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 3: she says to Eric, her nephew, I think that Alan 179 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 3: was murdered and I actually think that he was murdered 180 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 3: on the Fox Hollow property. 181 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 4: My aunt Sharon made several calls to the detectives, to 182 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 4: the coroner. She was always getting the same answer, you know, 183 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 4: that they're investigating it, and she's never heard back, and 184 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 4: she gave up hope. 185 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 3: She really feels that the case just sat there because 186 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 3: Alan was gay and that nobody cared. 187 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: As you talk about Alan, it just strikes me as 188 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: so often I think when people are the victims, they're 189 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: also immediately stigmatized, like somehow, how implicitly we as humans, 190 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: maybe we have this thought like, oh maybe it was 191 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: their own fault on some level. It's like this double 192 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: layer or this intersection of stigma where it's like you're 193 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 2: a victim and you're gay, you just become more and 194 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 2: more dehumanized and less and less important and totally misrepresented. Yes, 195 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 2: everybody has a family and a story and that's forgotten 196 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: in all this. 197 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 3: And Sharon has kept a landline all of these years 198 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: because that was the number that Allan would call her on. 199 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 3: Oh so if he calls, and so she's like, I'm 200 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 3: not giving up the number, like on the off chance, wow, 201 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 3: that there's some story of he left town and wasn't 202 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 3: able to reach me. He knows this number. So Alan's 203 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 3: cousin Eric, his coworkers, tell him he's got to find 204 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 3: out what happened to Alan. And on top of that, 205 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: Alan's mom has been diagnosed with cancer. So Eric calls 206 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 3: the Corner's office in Hamilton County and Jeff Jellison answers 207 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 3: the phone. 208 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 4: I ask him to bring my cousin home to his 209 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 4: mother before she passes away. Is shed terminal cancer And 210 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 4: that was enough right there to get Jeff listening. 211 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 3: When Eric first calls, Jeff Jellison isn't even the elected 212 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: corner yet, he's the chief deputy in the Corner's office. 213 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 3: He had been a police officer in the eighties and 214 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 3: nineties and then went on to own a few businesses. 215 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 3: Then in April of twenty twenty two, he takes the 216 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 3: call from Eric Pranger saying, my aunt has terminal cancer. 217 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 3: Please take this case before it's too late. I need 218 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 3: to find out if Ellen Livingston was murdered at Fox 219 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 3: Hollow Farm. 220 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 5: So how do you say no? I mean you can't 221 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 5: and you know I have no clue that individuals had 222 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 5: not been identified and families had any closure. 223 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: What did Jeff Jellison know about the Foxhallow case before 224 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: that phone call? 225 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 3: He's aware of the Fox Hollow murders because he actually 226 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 3: lives not too far from the property. But you know, 227 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 3: as has happened like roughly thirty years ago, he assumes 228 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 3: that back then that law enforcement thoroughly investigated the case, 229 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 3: that bodies were identified. He has no reason to think 230 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 3: anything thing otherwise. So Jeff says to Eric, sure, I'm 231 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 3: going to look into this. Let me see what I 232 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 3: can find out. So Jeff Jealoison calls the university where 233 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 3: the bone fragments that were retrieved from the Fox Hollow 234 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 3: property are being stored, and he speaks to the sort 235 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 3: of head custodian who's overseeing the archive of all of 236 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 3: these bones. 237 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 5: And I said, just just what do we have there? 238 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 5: And she said ten thousand bone and bone fragments. And 239 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 5: I heard her say one thousand, and I thought, oh, okay, 240 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 5: we can deal with that, you know, I mean, that's manageable. 241 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 5: And she said no, Jeff, I said ten thousand, And 242 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 5: I said what I mean? Also? I said, what have 243 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 5: I just gotten into? 244 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: I mean, where do you even begin? 245 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 3: So Jeff puts down the phone and he goes home 246 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 3: to talk with his wife. 247 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 5: I spent several nights the cow with a very supportive wife. 248 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 5: The statutory duty of the corner is to identify the 249 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 5: deceased found in this county. The other corners were presented 250 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 5: with that opportunity, they chose not to do it. I 251 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 5: explained to my wife, this is going to be life changing, 252 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 5: and I mean she agreed. 253 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 3: And he says, I need to give this guy an answer. 254 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 3: But I know that I'm essentially pulling a thread of 255 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 3: a massive case that is going to really like rock 256 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 3: the boat in this town. 257 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:55,119 Speaker 5: This is the second largest case of unidentified human remains 258 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 5: in this country, second only to the world trace Her. 259 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 5: Before I took over as corner, you know, we may 260 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 5: have had three deputy corners in this office plus the 261 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 5: elected corner. Did he have the staff or did the 262 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 5: former corners have the staff to conduct an investigation like this? 263 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 5: And when it boils down to it, I'm just going 264 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 5: to be very blunt. It doesn't matter, doesn't matter if 265 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 5: you had the staff or not, doesn't matter if law 266 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 5: enforcement had the time and resources you have to make 267 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 5: it happen. These are people, These are families and you 268 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 5: can't say, well, we just can't do it. 269 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 3: So Jeff goes public and he talks to like any 270 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 3: TV station or newspaper or radio outlet, like anybody that 271 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 3: will give him some time, and he says, listen, if 272 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 3: you have a friend relative, if you know of any 273 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 3: person who disappeared in the early nineties, please come forward. 274 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 3: He set up a system, and what he really wanted 275 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 3: was people to come and give a DNA sample, a 276 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 3: mouth swab, because now they're going to start DNA testing 277 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: these fragments and try and match them up with living relatives. 278 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: Wow, weich probably should have happened decades earlier. 279 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 3: So not everybody is on board. And Jeff is contacted 280 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 3: by a former county councilman who was a local politician 281 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 3: during the time of the Fox Hollow case. The guy 282 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 3: wants to know why in the world corner Jeff Jellison 283 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 3: would spend any of the county resources on opening this investigation. 284 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 2: Now. 285 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 3: Jeff is also reaching out to family members who had 286 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 3: filed missing person reports back in the nineties. 287 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 5: We made no promises, explained to them that this is 288 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 5: an extremely challenging investigation because of the conditions of the remains. 289 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 5: They were burnt, they were crushed, you know, they set 290 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 5: in the woods for however long before they were recovered. 291 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 5: Carnivores are chewed on them. Some of them are the 292 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 5: size maybe a fingernail, you know, in size comparison. But 293 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 5: we're never going to get it done if we don't try. 294 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 2: And I'm assuming he's getting DNA swaps from the families, 295 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 2: but I mean, with ten thousand bone fragments, how do 296 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: you figure out what to test? 297 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 3: Well, Jeff works with the University of Indianapolis and those 298 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 3: folks figure out which bones have the best chance of 299 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 3: getting usable DNA, and he also pulls in more experts. 300 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 3: He creates a team with the FBI, a police center 301 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 3: for Human Identification, and also Steve Ainsworth. 302 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: Oh yes, Steve, he's the former homicide detective who now 303 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 2: works at AUTHROM. Yeah. 304 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 3: And it's a two step process because remember a lot 305 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: of the men who went missing back in the nineties 306 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 3: were never reported to police. So first, about forty four 307 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 3: bones are selected for testing, and Steve says they would 308 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 3: compare the DNA profile of each bone to the DNA 309 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 3: swabs that family members had submitted. 310 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: So they can do basically a wonder when a relationship 311 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: like a mother or a sibling or something like that, 312 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: and they could identify him that way. And then after 313 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: they had done that and made those comparisons, if they 314 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: didn't match any of the familiar references, then they send 315 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: them to AUTHROM. 316 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 3: The second step of this process is doing forensic genetic 317 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 3: genealogy on the remains that don't have a familial DNA. 318 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: Hit right, because I mean, with no family reference, they 319 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: need to build out a family tree to find out 320 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: who this person is. 321 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and Alen, in October of twenty twenty three, they 322 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 3: make the first identification I ever. 323 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 5: Forget that phone call. I saw it was the state Police, 324 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 5: so I went ahead and answered it and they said 325 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 5: we have a match. I said who is it? And 326 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 5: they said our O Livingston And I said, you know, 327 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 5: don't joke with me like that. You know, what are 328 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 5: the odds And they said, no, it's our Olympicston And 329 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 5: I knew right then, you know that's God's work. I 330 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 5: walked outside my office and called all my deputies together 331 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 5: and there was a lot of high fives, a lot 332 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 5: of celebrations, and then it just like it hit us 333 00:21:54,480 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 5: all that we've just identified a murder victim, and we 334 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 5: have many, many more where to go. 335 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 2: So the first human remains that are identified from Fox 336 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 2: Hollow after thirty years belonged to Alan Livingstone, and it 337 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: was his cousin who essentially reopened this case with his 338 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 2: phone call. Does Alan's mom live long enough to hear 339 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: the news? She does. 340 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 3: She's heartbroken, but she said she knew in her gut 341 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 3: all along that Alan was a victim of her Baumeisters. 342 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 3: Now Alan had been identified from his femur bone, and 343 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 3: Jeff calls Eric to tell him he can finally take 344 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 3: his cousin home. 345 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 4: I was like, when can I come get him? 346 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 5: Can I come right now? Yeah? 347 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 4: I rushed to get that. When I left my house 348 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 4: to go pick up Allan's remains, I stopped at Alan's brother, 349 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 4: James's house, and at James and I drove up to 350 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 4: the Hamilton County Corner's office and picked him up. And 351 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 4: it was pretty emotional. It was exciting to to be 352 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 4: able to shake Jeff's hand after all that hard work. 353 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,479 Speaker 3: Since Eric works in the funeral industry, he was able 354 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 3: to cremate Alan's bone himself and give his aunt an 355 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 3: earn with Alan's ashes. She kept the urn in her 356 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 3: living room until she died, and Alan's bone was the 357 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 3: first to be identified. But since then they've found more 358 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 3: of his remains. 359 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 2: Have they identified more people? Since then? 360 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 3: When I spoke to Jeff Jellison, they had identified eleven 361 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 3: victims at Fox Hollow. But here's the thing, it's still 362 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 3: a very open case. Steve Ainsworth and Jeff have been 363 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 3: back to the property to another search. 364 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: When we went out there with cadaver dogs, Jeff and 365 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: I found what we think are three bone fragments, just 366 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: in areas where that dirt would wash down and collect 367 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: stay on a route or against a rock or something 368 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: like that, and you start digging in there and start 369 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: finding little pieces, and we found a couple, I think 370 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: three that were quite possibly bone fragments. So there's still 371 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: some out there. 372 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: The fact that they're still finding bones speaks to how 373 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 2: large this crime is, but also the lengths to which 374 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: Herb and maybe accomplices, if he had accomplices, went to 375 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: destroy evidence. Do we know how these men were murdered? 376 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 2: They have some theories. 377 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 3: Remember this whole case unravels when Herb's son finds the 378 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 3: skull in the woods. Steve says that is the only 379 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 3: fully intact skull that's ever been found there. 380 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: So that's the most readily identifiable part of a person. 381 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: And I think he was actually got very very cautious 382 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: and started crushing the bones. So once they're decomposed to 383 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: the point where you could crush him, I think he 384 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: was crushing him. And in fact, there were statements made 385 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: by the witness there was some sort of a large 386 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: piece of heavy equipment that would drive back and forth 387 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: across the property. 388 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 2: I remember there was a burn pile too, right, so 389 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 2: I could see maybe that was herb trying to make 390 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 2: it harder to find or id people. 391 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 3: You can understand why this case has been so challenging 392 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 3: and really just overwhelming, and it was a challenge for 393 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 3: AUTHORM for a couple of reasons. First, David Middelman says, 394 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 3: the bone fragments were mixed up. I mean, investigators think 395 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 3: they're possibly fifty six victims and the remains are charred 396 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 3: and they've been left out in the woods for decades. 397 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 6: They've got a bunch of skeletal fragments, no clues, so 398 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 6: there are no leads to associate these remains or fragments 399 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 6: of remains with an actual person. Was this in fact 400 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 6: a victim of that serial killer? This is the perfect 401 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 6: time to use a technique like DNA testing that could 402 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 6: at least tell you whose remains these are, and then 403 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 6: with that information at hand, you're in a position to 404 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 6: make some decisions. 405 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 3: This is one case that David's wife Kristen, actually had 406 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 3: to step away from. 407 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 7: Some of these cases are so horrifying that you don't sleep. 408 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 7: There are some that you can't. You just you can't. 409 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 7: And I think about how many people We're human, right, 410 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 7: we're human, and this affects us. I think that's the 411 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 7: part people don't understand. We're scientists, yes, and the science 412 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 7: is solid, and it's based on ken is it feasible 413 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 7: or is it not? And you know how many markers 414 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 7: can you get here and where can you upload? And 415 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 7: what algorithms are you using? And all of that is 416 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 7: black and white. But the emotions that come with each 417 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 7: one of these cases are not. It's horrified. 418 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 3: Recently, another set of remains were sent to AUTHRAM. The 419 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 3: DNA had no familial hits, so this person was never 420 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 3: reported missing to police. Genetic genealogy led them to a 421 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 3: possible identification, but Jeff Jellison says there were unexpected problems. 422 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 5: We find out his brother is deceased, his mother is deceased, 423 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 5: and his father is deceased. So we're thinking his entire 424 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 5: family has deceased. How are we going to do this? 425 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 5: So we find out that the mom had died of 426 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 5: a drug overdose in a neighboring county. To us, they 427 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 5: had a DNA card. 428 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 2: What's a DNA card? 429 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 3: A DNA card is a way for medical examiner to 430 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 3: collect and store blood so that the person's DNA can 431 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 3: be tested later, and it's usually used when there's an 432 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 3: unidentified body or if someone dies under suspicious circumstances. And 433 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 3: it's interesting. The card absorbs and dries the blood, saving 434 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 3: the DNA. So Jeff is able to get this particular 435 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 3: DNA card and sends that to authorm. 436 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 2: To develop a DNA profile of his mom, who had 437 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 2: already died. 438 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and from that they find another relative who is alive. 439 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 5: The next day, we find out that this person has 440 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 5: a daughter that lives in North Carolina. 441 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,719 Speaker 3: The man who died, he had a daughter. 442 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 5: She said that my parents divorced when I was very young, 443 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 5: so I never knew my dad and I always wondered 444 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 5: about my dad. 445 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 3: Her dad was Daniel Thomas Hallerin. He was roughly twenty 446 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 3: four when he was murdered. His daughter Coral said that 447 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 3: over the years the family had looked for him. They 448 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 3: had even hired a private detective and contacted social service agencies. 449 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 3: They were just looking for any trace of him. 450 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 5: And sudden me, I feel closer to my dad now 451 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 5: that you were able to make this identification. 452 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 2: That's so interesting. I do think there's something about just 453 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 2: knowing what happened. It literally can make you feel closer 454 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: to the person you lost. And maybe you also know, 455 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: like they weren't avoiding me all these years, there's a 456 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 2: reason they disappeared. I feel like knowledge of the truth 457 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 2: has so much power. But I'm also curious what happened 458 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 2: to the Fox Hollow property. 459 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 3: Well, a guy named Robert Graves bought it. He and 460 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 3: his family were aware of what happened at Fox Hollow, 461 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 3: and the grounds have changed. The woods don't come right 462 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 3: up behind the property like they used to, and some 463 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 3: of the eighteen acres has been sold off and developed. 464 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 3: But Alin, the new owner has kept the house pretty 465 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 3: much exactly how it was when the Baumeisters live there. 466 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 3: The basement indoor pool is still there. The dark Library. 467 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 3: Robert Graves sleeps in the same bedroom that Herb did, 468 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 3: and he's a self proclaimed student of Herb Baumeister. He 469 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 3: even wrote a book about the murders called The Horrors 470 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 3: of Fox Hollow Farm. 471 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm sorry, but there's something about that that creeps 472 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 2: me out. Do we know if Herb had any accomplices, 473 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 2: because I'm realizing since he died by suspected suicide and 474 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 2: the original investigation was dropped, do we know anything more now? 475 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 3: Well, no one I spoke to thinks Herb did this 476 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 3: all by himself. Steve Ainsworth, the investigator working with Authorm, 477 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 3: told me that a few different men at the time 478 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 3: said they were approached at various gay bars in Indianapolis 479 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 3: by a man, but that man was not Herb. 480 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: A potential victim identified a person who picked him up 481 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: at a bar and said, Hey, I've got this really, 482 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: really wealthy friend. He's got this great house, he's got 483 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 1: an indoor swimming pool. You've got to come and see it. 484 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: And so he was taken out there. And it wasn't 485 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: by Baalmeister to have had two witnesses that came forward 486 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: and told us about a young man that was shot, 487 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: and he was shot by Balmeister, but he was being 488 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: held and was possibly be handcuffed by two or three 489 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: other people, and their accounts are almost identical. 490 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 2: I wonder iful'll ever know the full truth of what 491 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 2: happened at Fox Hollow Farm or who was involved. 492 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, so far, Jeff says 493 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 3: they've extracted DNA from roughly one hundred and fifty bone fragments, 494 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 3: but I mean, they still have thousands more to test. 495 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 2: I could see how testing the bones could also produce 496 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: more leads, because maybe if they talked to friends and 497 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 2: family of the men who died, they could find out 498 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 2: who they'd last been seen with. I mean, some family 499 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 2: members could have ideas about who lured them out there, 500 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 2: and that could be an actual way to find out 501 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: who else was involved. You know. 502 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 3: That's something Kristin Middleman says is really important, especially in 503 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 3: crimes involving serial killers. 504 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 7: When you hide a victim, disfigure a victim, destroy a victim, 505 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 7: and there isn't that victim identity, it's really difficult to 506 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 7: work that crime. It's immediately stalled. And I think a 507 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 7: lot of serial killers, they get away with it, and 508 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 7: they do it over and over and over again in 509 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 7: almost the same manner. And once the victims start getting identified, 510 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 7: then it's pretty easy to connect who was connected to 511 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 7: all of these victims. 512 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 3: And there's another part of this story, you know, I 513 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 3: had mentioned back in nineteen ninety six, when the remains 514 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 3: were first discovered, Jeff says, the attitude of county officials 515 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 3: was like, well, I mean, let these families pay for 516 00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 3: the identification themselves. 517 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 5: They didn't support the families. You know, when some of 518 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 5: these remains were returned in the nineties, they called these 519 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 5: family members in and they said, we've got your loved 520 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 5: ones remains. We need to return them to you. They 521 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 5: gave them paper sacks with raw bones in them. I mean, 522 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 5: damn it, are we so lacking and compassion that we're 523 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 5: just going to hand them a raw bone. 524 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 3: It's not always as easy as returning remains to families 525 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 3: when they're identified. Sometimes relatives don't have the money to 526 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 3: bury the remains, or it's frankly, just too painful to 527 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 3: reopen that wound. So Jeff worked with local authorities and 528 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 3: organizations to cremate the remains for free and if the 529 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 3: family doesn't want to take the ashes home. There's a 530 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 3: memorial for the victims not far from Fox Hollow where 531 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 3: their remains can be buried, and. 532 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 5: It's really become a very special place. I don't live 533 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 5: far from it, and I drive by it every morning 534 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 5: to work, and I've actually seen families visit. 535 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: It is just wild to me that this is a 536 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 2: story that so few people have heard of. It seems 537 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 2: like quite often stories like this don't hit the media, 538 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 2: the information isn't disseminated if it doesn't go to trial, 539 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 2: because it's at the trial where the truth is really 540 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: hammered out. It's discussed, it's in the public domain, it's 541 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 2: in the air, it's reported on, and so in a 542 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 2: way by Herb Baumeister potentially killing himself or I guess, 543 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 2: we don't know exactly what happened, but it's like that 544 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 2: opportunity to fully understand what happened, to fully know who 545 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: the victims are, and to address the underlying social issues 546 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 2: that maybe need to be addressed, that is all lost. 547 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 3: I think that's something Jeff and the team at Authrum 548 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 3: are working to do, not only give back these victims 549 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 3: their names, but to try and give families answers and 550 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 3: as they say, to right the wrongs of the past. Recently, 551 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 3: Jeff and Steve invited some family members to walk the 552 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 3: grounds of Fox Hollow, Whoa and Alan Livingstone's cousin Eric went. 553 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 4: It was very intense and overwhelm me, very scary too, 554 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 4: like just walking through the woods, thinking about everything that 555 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 4: happened there. Being in the swimming pool room, I did 556 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 4: not fit I other than everybody that was in there, 557 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 4: I did not feel alone. 558 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 2: I can't even imagine. 559 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 3: Authoram has identified multiple victims at Fox Hollow. In addition 560 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 3: to Daniel Hollerin, there's thirty one year old Jeffrey Jones, 561 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 3: who went missing in nineteen ninety three, and investigators say 562 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 3: they plan to announce more identification soon. And allen, as 563 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 3: shocking as this case is, sadly there are tens of 564 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 3: thousands of unidentified human remains all over the country. The 565 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 3: Department of Justice calls it a silent mass disaster. 566 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 7: And it is more common that any of us think. 567 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 7: It is so common. There are so many cases out 568 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 7: there where because the body isn't discovered yet, because the 569 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 7: body is out in the middle of a field, somewhere 570 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 7: in a dumpster in a trash bag underground. The case 571 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 7: isn't even a case. No one even is trying to 572 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 7: figure out the crimes, and for the first time, there's 573 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 7: a solution. This technology is being used universally to try 574 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 7: to all of these unsolvable crimes, and victims' families have hope. 575 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 7: I can't tell you the amount of time that family 576 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 7: writes to me today and tells me because of your technology, 577 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 7: I have hope that my case is next, that the 578 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 7: person I'm missing will one day be identified. That's the 579 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 7: greatest feeling in the world. 580 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 3: Fox Hollow is still a very active case. Authoram is 581 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 3: working with these tiny, charred and degraded bone fragments so 582 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 3: we can finally discover who all of the victims are, 583 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 3: and Jeff Jellison is hoping to hear from more families 584 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 3: so he can collect more DNA samples because ultimately these 585 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 3: remains need to be returned home to their families. 586 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 5: If you have a missing person, call me. I don't 587 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 5: care where they're missing from, I don't care when they 588 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 5: went missing. You never know. Contact law enforcement. Make sure 589 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 5: that they take your DNA because that's the most efficient 590 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 5: way of identifying any missing person. Case one remains are found. 591 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 5: We're identifying remains and providing people with answers, and we're 592 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 5: not going to stop as long as I'm in this position. 593 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 5: You know, the old cop that me comes out and 594 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 5: it's like, get out of my way, because we're going 595 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 5: to do. 596 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 2: This next time. On America's Crime Lab, I knew when 597 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 2: I looked down at my phone and it said that 598 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 2: it was Chief James Frye calling that it was probably 599 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 2: something big. I don't typically get a call in the 600 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 2: middle of a Sunday afternoon from the cheap We had. 601 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 6: Four people that killed, no eyewitnesses, and we had to 602 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,800 Speaker 6: start from basically with nothing and try and figure everything out. 603 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 2: America's Crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope. 604 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 2: Erica Lance is our story editor, and sound design is 605 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 2: by David Woji. Our producing team is Catherine Fenalosa, Emily 606 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 2: Foreman and Jessica Albert. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, 607 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 2: Mangesh Hadigadour and David and Kristin Middleman and from iHeart 608 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 2: Katrina Norville and Ali Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrne, 609 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 2: Will Pearson, Kerrie Lieberman, Nikki Etoor Nathan Etowski, John Burbank, 610 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 2: and the entire team at Authrum. I'm Alan Lance Lesser. 611 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:50,720 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening 612 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 5: The ind