WEBVTT - Bonus: Seth Margolis Interview 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:17.279 Thinking sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:23.000 know the answer too. Hey everybody, and welcome to the 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.400 podcast again. Today is a bit of a different show. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.480 It's a bonus episode. If you listen to our episodes 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.080 that came out on Thursday, you'll know that we had 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:37.000 done an interview with Seth Margolis about Elizabeth the First 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:39.400 and it was a great interview and we had a 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.640 lot of content, but we didn't use but a little 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.800 bit in the episode, and we wanted to to share 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.559 that with you. So what we're gonna do here is 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:53.000 we're gonna go ahead and actually share with you the interview. Uh. 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.480 It was Joe and myself for that interview. Devin wasn't 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.160 unfortunately able to make it. But it's a great interview. 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.080 It's a lot of history and a lot of good information, 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:04.040 and I think you're gonna like it a lot. So 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:11.560 let's rule that interview. And you've got a lot more 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.080 research on this really than we have. And so I 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.200 guess i'd like to know, do you really think Elizabeth 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.160 had a child? You know, I don't know. I would 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:23.360 suspect not. I tend to be a discounter of conspiracy 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:28.120 theories um. And so you know, it was a really 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:32.440 intriguing idea for a novel, and there are bits and 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:37.600 pieces of her life and the circumstances around it that 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:41.640 might lead you to think she had a child. Um, 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.800 but I tend to think she didn't. But you know, 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:46.960 I think it's sort of like, you know, if you 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:50.480 think about the Kennedy assassination. Again, I'm not a conspiracy 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:54.000 theorist in general, so I think Lee Harvey as Oswald 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.160 acted alone. But a lot of people just feel that 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.400 it's it's just unthinkable that this great and who was 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.080 so beloved at the time and maybe even more so 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:07.560 in retrospect, could be brought down by one lunatic with 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:11.240 good aim. You wanted to be a conspiracy because it 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.960 seems unfitting that such a great person could be eliminated 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:18.760 by such a nobody. With Elizabeth, there's a similar frustration 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:23.040 that you know, arguably the greatest certainly the greatest monarch 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.040 and in English history and maybe one of the great 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.480 leaders in world history just ended, you know, her her 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.639 line ended with her death, and the tutors were no more, 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.040 her genes were no more. How could that be? It 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:41.880 just it doesn't seem fitting somehow. Um. So people constantly 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:45.919 want her to um to have left something behind um 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:47.919 and and in a way that's the I think that's 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.560 part of the fascination with her in general. And it's 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.160 and it's certainly the reason that a lot of these 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.680 theories continue to flourish. And it's really the reason I 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:02.720 wrote the book. So after Elizabeth, Elizabeth's death, the Tudor 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:06.320 line ended, and a lot of people believe that the 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:10.200 English monarchy went kind of downhill after that. Yeah, well 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:15.120 it I mean the Stewarts were particularly mediocre and um, 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.880 you know they within less than half a century, you know, 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:23.720 led to the English Civil War with Oliver Cromwell, the 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:28.359 the assassination or the execution of Charles the first um 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:30.880 and but you could also argue that things didn't get 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.080 much better after that. There weren't executions. But I don't 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.640 know that, um, you know that that that there have 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:41.320 been that the monarchs who came after Elizabeth the first 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:46.880 ever were particularly distinguished bunch. No no um disrespect intended 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.920 to the current queen who just turnedlinding. Um So. I 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.560 guess that's another source of frustration, is that you know, 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:55.760 if she had had a child, I guess a son 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:58.600 in particular, but a daughter too that you know might 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.720 have been you know who inherited her talent for leadership 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.680 as well as her father's. It might have changed the 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:08.440 course of history, certainly the history that immediately followed um. 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.480 But you know, so I think that's another reason that 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:12.800 people want to think that, you know, there could have 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:17.320 been a different path. So in real life, one candidate 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:21.440 for a child was Elizabeth that's really popular with a 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:23.600 lot of people as Robert Devereaux. What do you think 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.440 about him as a suspect, and right, he was one 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.720 of several people that she sort of showered her um 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:34.960 royal pleasures on in ways that that um mystified people 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.640 at the time, you know, why him And so there 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:42.040 were always rumors and she did. She did have a 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:47.000 very close relationship with his father, Robert Dudley, also known 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.680 as m Lester. And you know, I think she had 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.440 his bedroom moved next to hers. And you know, there 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.920 are all sorts of so you know, if if there 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.880 was going to be a h An offspring, it would 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.200 have been most like glee with him. And there was 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.800 actually there was someone named Arthur Dudley who surfaced at 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.160 one point who claimed to be the offspring of the 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.840 two of them shut up at Philip of Spain's place. Yeah, 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.400 because the Catholics never never saw her as a legitimate 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.239 well as a legitimate period, but as a legitimate monarch 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:19.880 of England. So if they could find any sort of 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:24.520 scandal that would um, you know, add further I legitimacy 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.599 to her, it would work to their ends. And in fact, 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:30.000 in my book, that's one of the reasons that she 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.800 um disguises the fact that she had a child, was 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.119 that it would just it would imperil her her claim 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.520 to the throne. And of course in the Semprasonic she 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.320 has the child before she becomes queen. Most of the 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.599 rumors about or their theories about her having a child 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.960 have her having the child while she was queen, and 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.440 and there's and as I said, there's so many of them. 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.560 You know. She at one point, Um, she she took 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.560 to her bed. She had some sort of mysterious illness 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.040 which I think they called at the time dropsy, but 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:03.920 today we would call it a demon which is the 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.520 swelling in the mid section. So of course, if you um, 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.919 and I think that's pretty much historical fact that she 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.799 had that she was taken to her bed with dropsy 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:17.280 or a dema, and that she had a swollen abdomen. 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:20.679 So if you're inclined to think that she had a child, 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.360 this might have been a good time for that child 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.400 to have been carried, because she had you know, she 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.720 could have used that as an excuse to disguise her pregnancy. 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.000 So it really would have been kind of hard to 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.359 consual the pregnancy because so she was kind of like 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.240 the Princess Diana every day and there were so many 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.880 eyes upon her. It certainly does and that's I think 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.080 that's why I'm generally not a conspiracy theorists. Like back 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:47.560 to the Lee Harvey oswald uh idea. You know, after 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.240 all of these years, it seems impossible that no one 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.360 would have come forward to say they knew about this conspiracy. 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:57.120 Not one person has come forward. And similarly in Elizabeth's time, 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.080 the only difference is there, you know, there were no 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:03.919 cameras then, there were no recording devices, you know, so 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.760 it would all have just been people, um sort of 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:10.080 writing letters, and so it would have been harder. It 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.520 would have been, I think, much easier to disguise than 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:17.960 in Princess Diana's day, our day. Um, than any abnormality 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.400 becomes fodder, you know, for the for the for the media, 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.400 over the internet and so on. So I don't I 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.760 think I think she could have hidden it. Um. But 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.440 and the and the and the Elizabeth think Core was 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.000 a really um to use an old fashioned were libidinous place. 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.880 I mean there were you know, there was lots of 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.600 intrigue going on. Um. I mean her own mother had 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.400 been and Lynn had been executed for adultery. She was 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.800 the wife of the king, and many believe that she 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.400 was in fact adulter iss So you know, why would 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.560 why would the wife of the queen take those kind 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.280 of risks if she didn't think there was actually a 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.760 pretty good chance she could get away with it. Um. 0:07:57.800 --> 0:07:59.640 And some people think she actually had. One of her 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.160 lovers was her own brother, oh Anne Boleyn, Yeah, which 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.480 hastened her her execution. I don't know she was guilty 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.040 of adultery actually, because Henry the eighth did have a 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.320 pensiont for just wanting to move on and getting tired 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.640 of whoever he was with and wanted to find himself 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.560 a new wife. We could do another podcast on that. 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.080 You know, was she actually adulterous. But the point is 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:24.800 that it wasn't so wildly unbelievable at the time that 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.480 she might have been, because the court was a place 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:31.120 of trists and intrigue and you know, all of which 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.240 is to say that it's it's conceivable that Elizabeth could 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:39.000 have um disguised her pregnancy UM and disguised her love 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:43.040 affair with with Dudley or lester um, or thought she 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.280 could have because there was so much going on at 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.800 the time. It was that kind of court. You have 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:52.000 found a new potential father for a child that Elizabeth 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.760 might have had, named Miles Stafford. So did Myles really 0:08:55.800 --> 0:09:00.240 exist now? So I'm sorry to say it's okay. It 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.760 was much I found it much more interesting to invent 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.000 him and then dispatch him quickly. You never really hear 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.720 from him other than that he had um this rare 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:13.920 genetic disorder that passed on the this um tendency to shivering, 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.320 as someone calls it in the book, which was an 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.880 interesting um sort of way to keep his sort of 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:24.079 lineage alive. Was you know, not in a particularly positive way. UM. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.360 It also made it, you know, when you're writing a thriller, 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:31.000 it made it interesting because you know, when the uh 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.960 Lee Nicholson, the twenty first century heroine of the book, 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:40.120 would come across various locations where the file of family lived, Um, 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.640 she would seat, for instance, two fireplaces in one room 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:47.200 and realized, you know, that became an indication that these 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.120 people who lived there had a real obsession with staying warm. 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.400 So that's the one thing that that I had. My 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:59.920 fictional father of the of the Elizabethan offspring um past 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.600 onto his to his descendants um. And of course the 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:05.839 name filer you know, as you know because you read 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.400 the book, it's full of wordplay and the you know, 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.560 the word filer um is an adaptation of the French 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:15.200 word feast for son and e er of course for 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:19.600 Elizabeth Rex and French was the main language spoken at 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.240 the time of her version of it in the Elizabethan court. 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:23.800 So it was like, you know, it was interesting or 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.280 likely that she would have had, if she had a child, 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:29.440 might have given him that name just as a sort 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.480 of sly reference to who his his at least his 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:34.880 mother was. He said, I have a question, So this 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:36.800 is going to kind of be a break and what 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:40.000 we've talked about so far, But how did you how 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.520 did you go about doing your research for the book, 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.320 because there's a lot of content here. Uh. Well, I 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.760 this has been my one of my The Elizabethan period, 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.280 or really the whole Tooter period in England is my 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:56.439 favorite in history. It's one of those really rare times 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:59.240 in history where there just seems to be a confluence 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:04.120 of um of really extraordinary people. Um. So, of course 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.720 you have Elizabeth, you have her father Henry the Eighth, 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.160 an amazing person. You have a Balyn, a fascinating character. 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.439 You have Dudley himself, you have Sir Walter Raleigh. Of course, 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.120 you have Shakespeare, Bacon and all the great artists at 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:20.480 the time, writers, and it's and I think another period 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.920 that I also i'm fascinated with, very different is the 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.400 eighteenth century America, and you've had all the founding fathers. 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:31.920 You know, this rare confluence of just incredibly um intelligent, 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.800 creative people coming together. Um. And you know, you know 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:38.760 there's always the debate did the times make the man? 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:40.920 The man makes the time? I don't know the answer 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.400 to that. It's probably not even worth thinking about too much. 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.839 But Elizabeth in England or Tutor England was one of 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:48.880 those periods It's always been one of my favorites, so 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.480 I'm fairly knowledgeable about it, uh, you know, even before 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.200 I started writing this book. But you know, of course 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:57.240 I ended up doing a lot of research. You know, 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.560 you can do a lot of it on the web, 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.120 including the Elizabeth file site that you mentioned. I just 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:05.280 went there, and by the way, I certainly have been 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.520 to that site many times. Um. There's a wonderful book 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.600 by lies of a Card called Elizabeth's London Um, which 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:16.480 is about sort of everyday life in Elizabethan England, which 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:19.000 is something that you don't get a lot of when 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:21.640 you read biographies of Elizabeth. You get very little of 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.319 it in fact um, and it's a wonderful book. It's 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:25.920 actually a lot of a lot of fun to read, 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.199 just about sort of what it was like to live 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.679 at that time as an ordinary citizen rather than as 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.200 a member of the court. Um. And that really helped 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.600 with a lot of sort of the small details about 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.439 Elizabeth in medicine, particularly childbirth, so the opening scene is 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.800 actually quite factual other than the fact that involved Elizabeth 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.120 having a baby, in terms of the ability to smell 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.079 garlic as an indicator of pregnancy and things like that 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:49.880 that's how they knew back in the day. Yeah, they 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.960 put garlic under it and if you couldn't smell it, 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.240 it made you were pregnant. Um. It's probably not that simple, 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.760 but but there's a lot of that, and the idea 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:02.040 that men were not allowed in the birthday room, for instance, 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.640 only midwives. The doctor was banished. And details like that 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.959 came from this wonderful book called Elizabeth's London. And then 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.679 at some point I started writing it and realized I 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.240 needed to go to England directly. I've been there many 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.679 times before, but for specific scenes in the book. So 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:21.280 I went to Hatfield, which is the palace about I 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:25.760 think it's about forty minutes from London, where Elizabeth basically 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.560 held a prisoner by her older sister Mary the look 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.839 known as Bloody Mary, the Catholic tutor. Um. She was 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:34.840 sort of under house arrest there and that's where the 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.480 opening scene and the birth take place. And I just 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:40.200 had to be there. There's no way you can write 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.840 about it convincingly without going there. Um and uh. And 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.920 I was able to convince it was it's open part 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:48.440 of the year of the public. But I was able 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:52.600 to convince the people in charge there um to let 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.520 me in. And there's actually a new palace built by Cecil, 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.720 Elizabeth's great advisor. But the old palace where she was 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.079 held under house arrest is still there as well. It's 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.600 actually used for weddings and bar Mitzvah's apparently today. But 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:07.840 I was able to do something I don't think Elizabeth 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.520 would have appreciated, But I was able to um to 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:12.240 tour it on my own and really get a sense 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:14.880 of what the place looked like. And um, there's really 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.080 no substitute for that, even was you know, you walk 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.360 up from the gatehouse and then back down through the 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.760 little village around the edges of the um of the estate, 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:24.400 and you really get a sense of what it was 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.960 like to live at that time. And um, so that 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.880 was really key. And then the other thing I did 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.560 other research while I was there. I UM one of 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:34.760 the important venues in the book, and a place that 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:36.840 I spent a lot of time in while I was 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:41.160 writing this was obviously Westminster Abbey, particularly the Lady chapel. 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:43.840 Um at the very I think it's the back. I 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.240 don't think it could be the back of the front. 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.360 It's based it's behind the altar and it's where Elizabeth 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:50.760 is buried, although if you read the book, not to 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.920 give anything away, but that that becomes questionable. But Elizabeth 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.120 is buried there. Ironically, she's buried directly on top of 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:01.120 her hated sister Mary. And UM, I spent at least 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.080 half a day there, um, sort of taking notes and 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:08.040 trying to, um, you know, block out the scene. What 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.840 was interesting was, you know, I probably the sort of 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.920 suspicious because I spent so much time there. But the 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.800 guards they were actually called Beatles. It's very Dickenzie and 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.400 maybe even um Elizabeth Ethan but um, I love the name, 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.640 by the way, it's a it's amazing that they're still 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.960 called that. And um. There was a succession of them coming, 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:29.120 you know, on and off shift while I was there, 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.560 And what I really needed from them was information on 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.840 the security not of you know, the the sixteenth century, 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:39.960 the cameras and stuff. The cameras. Yeah, so I um 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:41.600 so I would you know, I would pull them aside 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:43.320 and say what's that up in the corner there, and 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.760 they look at me like I was insane or possibly 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.960 dangerous and say, well, you know that's an infrared camera. 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:51.880 So then I and that you know, they gave me 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.080 more details about when they go on when they go off, 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.840 so that I was able to then do some research 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.920 on how you could um um disable them using actually 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:06.600 the phone from a fire extinguisher. So and I was 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:08.760 really worried i'd be stopped in the way out, but 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:10.560 maybe they were just happy to see me go after 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:12.560 all the hours I'd spent there. That was a kind 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.760 of research you really can't do when the Internet. You 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.120 have to go there and see for yourself. I noticee 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.760 a character Lee Nichols, does the same thing. It's hard enough. 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:22.880 It's hard to hang out without moving because you look 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.520 more suspicious than if you move around. I think, yeah, 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.600 you know, I'm really sorry. I've never been to West 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.080 Mr Abbey. I've been to London, and I guess I 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:31.720 have to go back to London now because I really 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.520 want to see it now. Oh, it's it's really amazing. 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:38.280 I mean it, particularly that part of it. It's it's 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.800 it's it's just beautiful and it's and it's so full 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.760 of history. Um, it's good. Actually, the character of Lee 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:46.800 says that it was never her favorite place because it's 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.240 a place that commemorates death with inscriptions rather than a 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.360 place that anyone lives. But I don't feel that way. 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.800 I feel overwhelmed by history when I walk in there. 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.280 Why is it set that you believe that there's this 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:02.600 continuing fascination with Elizabeth. I think it's a couple of things. 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.680 The fascination with her is because she was just out 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:10.000 and out one of the most fascinating political leaders ever 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.439 to live. And part of the part of that is 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.359 that just that she was an absolute monarch of of 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:21.400 a great nation and helps oversee England's transition from maybe 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.840 a second rate power to one of, you know, a 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.000 first rate power, particularly through the defeat of the Spanish 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.600 and the Spanish Armada um. And so there's that. I 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:34.040 think the fact that she never married is doubly fascinating 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.000 because she, you know, she didn't get to power in 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.280 the usual or she didn't hold on to power in 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.200 the usual ways, which is exercising it through a man 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.800 immediate in Her older sister Mary married Philip of Spain 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:49.040 Um and they were very much co rulers. But Elizabeth 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:51.879 would have none of that. There's a great line that 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.440 I actually quote in the in the novel Sempers on 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:59.359 it by the Scottish ambassador. Um, he says, I know 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.320 the truth of that, madam, you need not tell it me. 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.159 Your majesty thinks if you were married, you would be 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:07.600 but Queen of England, and now you are both King 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.440 and queen. And I think that really sums up why 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:12.199 a lot of people are fascinated by her. That she 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.040 just she ruled kind of on her own terms. And 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.399 and you know whether or not she had a child, 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.479 and she presumably she didn't she um, she didn't marry, 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.160 and she didn't marry because she just did not want 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:29.240 to to to share the to share power with anyone. 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:34.720 And that's such a from from a historical purpose that perspective. Rather, 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.359 that seems such an interesting and unusual attitude today, we 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.199 wouldn't we wouldn't think twice about it. But then just 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.000 the idea that a woman wanted absolute power and wouldn't 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.400 even share it with a man seems quite interesting. As 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:51.320 for having a child, I think that the fascination with that, 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.600 again is just that people just can't don't want to 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:57.679 accept the idea um that that it all ended with her, 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:02.160 that that this that this brilliant, brilliant woman's daughter, brilliant 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:07.840 though quite vicious father sort of through her refusal to 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.920 marry and had a child, um and did this this 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.040 great sort of genetic line, so that people want, you know, 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.159 are very they cling to any theory or a minor 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.640 fact that might prove otherwise. And I think that's that's 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:23.800 really what it's all about. Yeah, there's that whole thing 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.600 about keeping the question of marriage open as a way 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.520 to keep threats away, such as say Philip of Spain 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.440 for example, who if he had married Elizabeth, would have 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.560 taken England through marriage instead of through a military campaign. Right, 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.480 And she also held onto an important bargaining ship. So 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.520 I for as long as she wasn't married, she could 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:47.639 use her marriage as a carrot to you know, attract 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.480 potential foreign suitors. And she did that all the time 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:54.080 that she was forever negotiating marriage, you know, sending her 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:58.760 ambassadors out to negotiate marriage contracts that never amounted to anything. 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:00.960 But as you say, it held off war but also 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.159 enabled her to be in a good bargaining position. You know, 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.359 not to get political on this, but maybe it shows 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.080 why her life still resonates so deeply with people. I 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.520 was the other night, I was watching some news show 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:17.840 about uh ched Cruz picking Carly Fiorina as his running mate, 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.480 and people said, you know, it's obviously why he did it. 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.639 But some bright pundit said, you know, he's given up 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:27.560 an important bargaining ship because now when he goes to 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.480 the convention, he's already has the vice vice president, but 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.560 he can't hold that out as a lure to attract 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:36.600 other supporters. And I think Elizabeth, this is where it 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:40.040 all ties in. Elizabeth did the same by not marrying. 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.960 She always had something that she could promise. There was 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:47.600 always the lure of giving away her hand in marriage 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:51.119 to attract, to gain concessions and so on. So you know, 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.760 it's funny how those lessons from the sixteenth centuries still 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:57.879 our woled relevance today. And the other thing in my 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.000 book is, you know, um the opening scene I'm not 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.359 giving anything away, is she gives birth, and it's a 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:08.359 pretty horrendous birth. I think most childbirths at the time were. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.560 There were certainly no um anesthesia at the time, and 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.359 she was so in my book, she was so horrified 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.240 at having to endure that again that she vows, right then, 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:22.120 I'm never going through this again. And there were theories 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.280 that one of the reasons that she never married was 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.120 that if she married, she'd be expected to have a child, 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:29.520 and if she had a child, she like, I don't 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:32.080 know the exact figure, but but you know, a big 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.720 percentage of women would die in childbirth. Um. And thus 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:38.359 and thus not only you know, imperiled her own life, 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.240 but imperiled the rain and imperil the tutor dynasty and 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.280