1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: Thinking sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't 2 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: know the answer too. Hey everybody, and welcome to the 3 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: podcast again. Today is a bit of a different show. 4 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: It's a bonus episode. If you listen to our episodes 5 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: that came out on Thursday, you'll know that we had 6 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: done an interview with Seth Margolis about Elizabeth the First 7 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: and it was a great interview and we had a 8 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: lot of content, but we didn't use but a little 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: bit in the episode, and we wanted to to share 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: that with you. So what we're gonna do here is 11 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna go ahead and actually share with you the interview. Uh. 12 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: It was Joe and myself for that interview. Devin wasn't 13 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: unfortunately able to make it. But it's a great interview. 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: It's a lot of history and a lot of good information, 15 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: and I think you're gonna like it a lot. So 16 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: let's rule that interview. And you've got a lot more 17 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: research on this really than we have. And so I 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: guess i'd like to know, do you really think Elizabeth 19 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: had a child? You know, I don't know. I would 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: suspect not. I tend to be a discounter of conspiracy 21 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: theories um. And so you know, it was a really 22 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: intriguing idea for a novel, and there are bits and 23 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: pieces of her life and the circumstances around it that 24 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: might lead you to think she had a child. Um, 25 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: but I tend to think she didn't. But you know, 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: I think it's sort of like, you know, if you 27 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: think about the Kennedy assassination. Again, I'm not a conspiracy 28 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: theorist in general, so I think Lee Harvey as Oswald 29 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: acted alone. But a lot of people just feel that 30 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: it's it's just unthinkable that this great and who was 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: so beloved at the time and maybe even more so 32 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: in retrospect, could be brought down by one lunatic with 33 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: good aim. You wanted to be a conspiracy because it 34 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: seems unfitting that such a great person could be eliminated 35 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: by such a nobody. With Elizabeth, there's a similar frustration 36 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: that you know, arguably the greatest certainly the greatest monarch 37 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: and in English history and maybe one of the great 38 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: leaders in world history just ended, you know, her her 39 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: line ended with her death, and the tutors were no more, 40 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: her genes were no more. How could that be? It 41 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: just it doesn't seem fitting somehow. Um. So people constantly 42 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: want her to um to have left something behind um 43 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: and and in a way that's the I think that's 44 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: part of the fascination with her in general. And it's 45 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: and it's certainly the reason that a lot of these 46 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: theories continue to flourish. And it's really the reason I 47 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: wrote the book. So after Elizabeth, Elizabeth's death, the Tudor 48 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: line ended, and a lot of people believe that the 49 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: English monarchy went kind of downhill after that. Yeah, well 50 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: it I mean the Stewarts were particularly mediocre and um, 51 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: you know they within less than half a century, you know, 52 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: led to the English Civil War with Oliver Cromwell, the 53 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: the assassination or the execution of Charles the first um 54 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: and but you could also argue that things didn't get 55 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: much better after that. There weren't executions. But I don't 56 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: know that, um, you know that that that there have 57 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: been that the monarchs who came after Elizabeth the first 58 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: ever were particularly distinguished bunch. No no um disrespect intended 59 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: to the current queen who just turnedlinding. Um So. I 60 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: guess that's another source of frustration, is that you know, 61 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: if she had had a child, I guess a son 62 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: in particular, but a daughter too that you know might 63 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: have been you know who inherited her talent for leadership 64 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: as well as her father's. It might have changed the 65 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: course of history, certainly the history that immediately followed um. 66 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: But you know, so I think that's another reason that 67 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: people want to think that, you know, there could have 68 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: been a different path. So in real life, one candidate 69 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: for a child was Elizabeth that's really popular with a 70 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: lot of people as Robert Devereaux. What do you think 71 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: about him as a suspect, and right, he was one 72 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: of several people that she sort of showered her um 73 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: royal pleasures on in ways that that um mystified people 74 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: at the time, you know, why him And so there 75 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: were always rumors and she did. She did have a 76 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: very close relationship with his father, Robert Dudley, also known 77 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: as m Lester. And you know, I think she had 78 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: his bedroom moved next to hers. And you know, there 79 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: are all sorts of so you know, if if there 80 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: was going to be a h An offspring, it would 81 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: have been most like glee with him. And there was 82 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: actually there was someone named Arthur Dudley who surfaced at 83 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: one point who claimed to be the offspring of the 84 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 1: two of them shut up at Philip of Spain's place. Yeah, 85 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: because the Catholics never never saw her as a legitimate 86 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 1: well as a legitimate period, but as a legitimate monarch 87 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: of England. So if they could find any sort of 88 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: scandal that would um, you know, add further I legitimacy 89 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: to her, it would work to their ends. And in fact, 90 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: in my book, that's one of the reasons that she 91 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: um disguises the fact that she had a child, was 92 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,119 Speaker 1: that it would just it would imperil her her claim 93 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: to the throne. And of course in the Semprasonic she 94 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: has the child before she becomes queen. Most of the 95 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: rumors about or their theories about her having a child 96 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: have her having the child while she was queen, and 97 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: and there's and as I said, there's so many of them. 98 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: You know. She at one point, Um, she she took 99 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: to her bed. She had some sort of mysterious illness 100 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: which I think they called at the time dropsy, but 101 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: today we would call it a demon which is the 102 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: swelling in the mid section. So of course, if you um, 103 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: and I think that's pretty much historical fact that she 104 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 1: had that she was taken to her bed with dropsy 105 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: or a dema, and that she had a swollen abdomen. 106 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,679 Speaker 1: So if you're inclined to think that she had a child, 107 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: this might have been a good time for that child 108 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: to have been carried, because she had you know, she 109 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: could have used that as an excuse to disguise her pregnancy. 110 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: So it really would have been kind of hard to 111 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: consual the pregnancy because so she was kind of like 112 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: the Princess Diana every day and there were so many 113 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: eyes upon her. It certainly does and that's I think 114 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: that's why I'm generally not a conspiracy theorists. Like back 115 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: to the Lee Harvey oswald uh idea. You know, after 116 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: all of these years, it seems impossible that no one 117 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: would have come forward to say they knew about this conspiracy. 118 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: Not one person has come forward. And similarly in Elizabeth's time, 119 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: the only difference is there, you know, there were no 120 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: cameras then, there were no recording devices, you know, so 121 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: it would all have just been people, um sort of 122 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: writing letters, and so it would have been harder. It 123 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: would have been, I think, much easier to disguise than 124 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: in Princess Diana's day, our day. Um, than any abnormality 125 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: becomes fodder, you know, for the for the for the media, 126 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: over the internet and so on. So I don't I 127 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: think I think she could have hidden it. Um. But 128 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: and the and the and the Elizabeth think Core was 129 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: a really um to use an old fashioned were libidinous place. 130 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: I mean there were you know, there was lots of 131 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: intrigue going on. Um. I mean her own mother had 132 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: been and Lynn had been executed for adultery. She was 133 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: the wife of the king, and many believe that she 134 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: was in fact adulter iss So you know, why would 135 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: why would the wife of the queen take those kind 136 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: of risks if she didn't think there was actually a 137 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: pretty good chance she could get away with it. Um. 138 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: And some people think she actually had. One of her 139 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: lovers was her own brother, oh Anne Boleyn, Yeah, which 140 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: hastened her her execution. I don't know she was guilty 141 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: of adultery actually, because Henry the eighth did have a 142 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: pensiont for just wanting to move on and getting tired 143 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: of whoever he was with and wanted to find himself 144 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: a new wife. We could do another podcast on that. 145 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: You know, was she actually adulterous. But the point is 146 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: that it wasn't so wildly unbelievable at the time that 147 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: she might have been, because the court was a place 148 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: of trists and intrigue and you know, all of which 149 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: is to say that it's it's conceivable that Elizabeth could 150 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: have um disguised her pregnancy UM and disguised her love 151 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: affair with with Dudley or lester um, or thought she 152 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: could have because there was so much going on at 153 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: the time. It was that kind of court. You have 154 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: found a new potential father for a child that Elizabeth 155 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: might have had, named Miles Stafford. So did Myles really 156 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: exist now? So I'm sorry to say it's okay. It 157 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: was much I found it much more interesting to invent 158 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: him and then dispatch him quickly. You never really hear 159 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: from him other than that he had um this rare 160 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: genetic disorder that passed on the this um tendency to shivering, 161 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: as someone calls it in the book, which was an 162 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: interesting um sort of way to keep his sort of 163 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 1: lineage alive. Was you know, not in a particularly positive way. UM. 164 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: It also made it, you know, when you're writing a thriller, 165 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: it made it interesting because you know, when the uh 166 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: Lee Nicholson, the twenty first century heroine of the book, 167 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: would come across various locations where the file of family lived, Um, 168 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: she would seat, for instance, two fireplaces in one room 169 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: and realized, you know, that became an indication that these 170 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: people who lived there had a real obsession with staying warm. 171 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: So that's the one thing that that I had. My 172 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: fictional father of the of the Elizabethan offspring um past 173 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: onto his to his descendants um. And of course the 174 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: name filer you know, as you know because you read 175 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: the book, it's full of wordplay and the you know, 176 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: the word filer um is an adaptation of the French 177 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: word feast for son and e er of course for 178 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Rex and French was the main language spoken at 179 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: the time of her version of it in the Elizabethan court. 180 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: So it was like, you know, it was interesting or 181 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: likely that she would have had, if she had a child, 182 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: might have given him that name just as a sort 183 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: of sly reference to who his his at least his 184 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: mother was. He said, I have a question, So this 185 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: is going to kind of be a break and what 186 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: we've talked about so far, But how did you how 187 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: did you go about doing your research for the book, 188 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: because there's a lot of content here. Uh. Well, I 189 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: this has been my one of my The Elizabethan period, 190 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: or really the whole Tooter period in England is my 191 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: favorite in history. It's one of those really rare times 192 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: in history where there just seems to be a confluence 193 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: of um of really extraordinary people. Um. So, of course 194 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: you have Elizabeth, you have her father Henry the Eighth, 195 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: an amazing person. You have a Balyn, a fascinating character. 196 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: You have Dudley himself, you have Sir Walter Raleigh. Of course, 197 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: you have Shakespeare, Bacon and all the great artists at 198 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: the time, writers, and it's and I think another period 199 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: that I also i'm fascinated with, very different is the 200 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: eighteenth century America, and you've had all the founding fathers. 201 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: You know, this rare confluence of just incredibly um intelligent, 202 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: creative people coming together. Um. And you know, you know 203 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: there's always the debate did the times make the man? 204 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: The man makes the time? I don't know the answer 205 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: to that. It's probably not even worth thinking about too much. 206 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 1: But Elizabeth in England or Tutor England was one of 207 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: those periods It's always been one of my favorites, so 208 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: I'm fairly knowledgeable about it, uh, you know, even before 209 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: I started writing this book. But you know, of course 210 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: I ended up doing a lot of research. You know, 211 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: you can do a lot of it on the web, 212 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: including the Elizabeth file site that you mentioned. I just 213 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: went there, and by the way, I certainly have been 214 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: to that site many times. Um. There's a wonderful book 215 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: by lies of a Card called Elizabeth's London Um, which 216 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: is about sort of everyday life in Elizabethan England, which 217 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: is something that you don't get a lot of when 218 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: you read biographies of Elizabeth. You get very little of 219 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: it in fact um, and it's a wonderful book. It's 220 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: actually a lot of a lot of fun to read, 221 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: just about sort of what it was like to live 222 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: at that time as an ordinary citizen rather than as 223 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: a member of the court. Um. And that really helped 224 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: with a lot of sort of the small details about 225 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: Elizabeth in medicine, particularly childbirth, so the opening scene is 226 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: actually quite factual other than the fact that involved Elizabeth 227 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: having a baby, in terms of the ability to smell 228 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: garlic as an indicator of pregnancy and things like that 229 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: that's how they knew back in the day. Yeah, they 230 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: put garlic under it and if you couldn't smell it, 231 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: it made you were pregnant. Um. It's probably not that simple, 232 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: but but there's a lot of that, and the idea 233 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: that men were not allowed in the birthday room, for instance, 234 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: only midwives. The doctor was banished. And details like that 235 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: came from this wonderful book called Elizabeth's London. And then 236 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: at some point I started writing it and realized I 237 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: needed to go to England directly. I've been there many 238 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 1: times before, but for specific scenes in the book. So 239 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: I went to Hatfield, which is the palace about I 240 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: think it's about forty minutes from London, where Elizabeth basically 241 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: held a prisoner by her older sister Mary the look 242 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 1: known as Bloody Mary, the Catholic tutor. Um. She was 243 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: sort of under house arrest there and that's where the 244 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: opening scene and the birth take place. And I just 245 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: had to be there. There's no way you can write 246 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: about it convincingly without going there. Um and uh. And 247 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: I was able to convince it was it's open part 248 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: of the year of the public. But I was able 249 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: to convince the people in charge there um to let 250 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: me in. And there's actually a new palace built by Cecil, 251 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's great advisor. But the old palace where she was 252 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: held under house arrest is still there as well. It's 253 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: actually used for weddings and bar Mitzvah's apparently today. But 254 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: I was able to do something I don't think Elizabeth 255 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: would have appreciated, But I was able to um to 256 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: tour it on my own and really get a sense 257 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: of what the place looked like. And um, there's really 258 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: no substitute for that, even was you know, you walk 259 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: up from the gatehouse and then back down through the 260 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: little village around the edges of the um of the estate, 261 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: and you really get a sense of what it was 262 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: like to live at that time. And um, so that 263 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: was really key. And then the other thing I did 264 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: other research while I was there. I UM one of 265 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: the important venues in the book, and a place that 266 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time in while I was 267 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: writing this was obviously Westminster Abbey, particularly the Lady chapel. 268 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: Um at the very I think it's the back. I 269 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: don't think it could be the back of the front. 270 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: It's based it's behind the altar and it's where Elizabeth 271 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: is buried, although if you read the book, not to 272 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: give anything away, but that that becomes questionable. But Elizabeth 273 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: is buried there. Ironically, she's buried directly on top of 274 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: her hated sister Mary. And UM, I spent at least 275 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: half a day there, um, sort of taking notes and 276 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: trying to, um, you know, block out the scene. What 277 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: was interesting was, you know, I probably the sort of 278 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: suspicious because I spent so much time there. But the 279 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: guards they were actually called Beatles. It's very Dickenzie and 280 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: maybe even um Elizabeth Ethan but um, I love the name, 281 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: by the way, it's a it's amazing that they're still 282 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: called that. And um. There was a succession of them coming, 283 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: you know, on and off shift while I was there, 284 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: And what I really needed from them was information on 285 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: the security not of you know, the the sixteenth century, 286 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: the cameras and stuff. The cameras. Yeah, so I um 287 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: so I would you know, I would pull them aside 288 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: and say what's that up in the corner there, and 289 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: they look at me like I was insane or possibly 290 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: dangerous and say, well, you know that's an infrared camera. 291 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: So then I and that you know, they gave me 292 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: more details about when they go on when they go off, 293 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: so that I was able to then do some research 294 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: on how you could um um disable them using actually 295 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: the phone from a fire extinguisher. So and I was 296 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: really worried i'd be stopped in the way out, but 297 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: maybe they were just happy to see me go after 298 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: all the hours I'd spent there. That was a kind 299 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: of research you really can't do when the Internet. You 300 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: have to go there and see for yourself. I noticee 301 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: a character Lee Nichols, does the same thing. It's hard enough. 302 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: It's hard to hang out without moving because you look 303 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: more suspicious than if you move around. I think, yeah, 304 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: you know, I'm really sorry. I've never been to West 305 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: Mr Abbey. I've been to London, and I guess I 306 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: have to go back to London now because I really 307 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: want to see it now. Oh, it's it's really amazing. 308 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: I mean it, particularly that part of it. It's it's 309 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: it's it's just beautiful and it's and it's so full 310 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: of history. Um, it's good. Actually, the character of Lee 311 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: says that it was never her favorite place because it's 312 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: a place that commemorates death with inscriptions rather than a 313 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: place that anyone lives. But I don't feel that way. 314 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: I feel overwhelmed by history when I walk in there. 315 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: Why is it set that you believe that there's this 316 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: continuing fascination with Elizabeth. I think it's a couple of things. 317 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: The fascination with her is because she was just out 318 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: and out one of the most fascinating political leaders ever 319 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: to live. And part of the part of that is 320 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: that just that she was an absolute monarch of of 321 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: a great nation and helps oversee England's transition from maybe 322 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: a second rate power to one of, you know, a 323 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: first rate power, particularly through the defeat of the Spanish 324 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: and the Spanish Armada um. And so there's that. I 325 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: think the fact that she never married is doubly fascinating 326 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: because she, you know, she didn't get to power in 327 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: the usual or she didn't hold on to power in 328 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: the usual ways, which is exercising it through a man 329 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: immediate in Her older sister Mary married Philip of Spain 330 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: Um and they were very much co rulers. But Elizabeth 331 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: would have none of that. There's a great line that 332 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: I actually quote in the in the novel Sempers on 333 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: it by the Scottish ambassador. Um, he says, I know 334 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: the truth of that, madam, you need not tell it me. 335 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: Your majesty thinks if you were married, you would be 336 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: but Queen of England, and now you are both King 337 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: and queen. And I think that really sums up why 338 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: a lot of people are fascinated by her. That she 339 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: just she ruled kind of on her own terms. And 340 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: and you know whether or not she had a child, 341 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,479 Speaker 1: and she presumably she didn't she um, she didn't marry, 342 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: and she didn't marry because she just did not want 343 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: to to to share the to share power with anyone. 344 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: And that's such a from from a historical purpose that perspective. Rather, 345 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: that seems such an interesting and unusual attitude today, we 346 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: wouldn't we wouldn't think twice about it. But then just 347 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: the idea that a woman wanted absolute power and wouldn't 348 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: even share it with a man seems quite interesting. As 349 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: for having a child, I think that the fascination with that, 350 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: again is just that people just can't don't want to 351 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: accept the idea um that that it all ended with her, 352 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: that that this that this brilliant, brilliant woman's daughter, brilliant 353 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: though quite vicious father sort of through her refusal to 354 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: marry and had a child, um and did this this 355 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: great sort of genetic line, so that people want, you know, 356 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: are very they cling to any theory or a minor 357 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: fact that might prove otherwise. And I think that's that's 358 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: really what it's all about. Yeah, there's that whole thing 359 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: about keeping the question of marriage open as a way 360 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: to keep threats away, such as say Philip of Spain 361 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: for example, who if he had married Elizabeth, would have 362 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: taken England through marriage instead of through a military campaign. Right, 363 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: And she also held onto an important bargaining ship. So 364 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: I for as long as she wasn't married, she could 365 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: use her marriage as a carrot to you know, attract 366 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: potential foreign suitors. And she did that all the time 367 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: that she was forever negotiating marriage, you know, sending her 368 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: ambassadors out to negotiate marriage contracts that never amounted to anything. 369 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: But as you say, it held off war but also 370 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: enabled her to be in a good bargaining position. You know, 371 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: not to get political on this, but maybe it shows 372 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: why her life still resonates so deeply with people. I 373 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: was the other night, I was watching some news show 374 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: about uh ched Cruz picking Carly Fiorina as his running mate, 375 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: and people said, you know, it's obviously why he did it. 376 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: But some bright pundit said, you know, he's given up 377 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: an important bargaining ship because now when he goes to 378 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: the convention, he's already has the vice vice president, but 379 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: he can't hold that out as a lure to attract 380 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: other supporters. And I think Elizabeth, this is where it 381 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: all ties in. Elizabeth did the same by not marrying. 382 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: She always had something that she could promise. There was 383 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: always the lure of giving away her hand in marriage 384 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: to attract, to gain concessions and so on. So you know, 385 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: it's funny how those lessons from the sixteenth centuries still 386 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: our woled relevance today. And the other thing in my 387 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: book is, you know, um the opening scene I'm not 388 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: giving anything away, is she gives birth, and it's a 389 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: pretty horrendous birth. I think most childbirths at the time were. 390 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: There were certainly no um anesthesia at the time, and 391 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: she was so in my book, she was so horrified 392 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: at having to endure that again that she vows, right then, 393 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: I'm never going through this again. And there were theories 394 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: that one of the reasons that she never married was 395 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: that if she married, she'd be expected to have a child, 396 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: and if she had a child, she like, I don't 397 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: know the exact figure, but but you know, a big 398 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: percentage of women would die in childbirth. Um. And thus 399 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: and thus not only you know, imperiled her own life, 400 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: but imperiled the rain and imperil the tutor dynasty and 401 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: put her country at risk. Um. So in the semper side, 402 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: did I make that quite explicit? She she knew about 403 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: the peril because she had gone through it. Um. But 404 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people think that that's one of the 405 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: reasons she never had a child, that she she simply 406 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: was afraid, um, that it would kill her, and that 407 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: that would not only be you know, obviously not good 408 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: for her, but it would be very um would put 409 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: the entire kingdom of the risk. Well, yeah, chastidy was 410 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: not as uncommon in those days because actually, I mean 411 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: death and childbirth was very common, and there was also 412 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: things like maneial disease which were incurable. Exactly there were 413 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, but you remember that back it 414 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: Lizabeth in England, it wasn't um, it wasn't a certainly 415 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: a court. It wasn't a completely chased situation. And actually, um, 416 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: you know, virginity was sort of mocked. There are instances 417 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: of Shakespeare where it's mocked. It's not necessarily, um, it's 418 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: it's certainly talked about publicly as a virtue, but it 419 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: was it was made fun of a bit behind the scenes. 420 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: But the truth is she actually gloried in it, in 421 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: her virginity, and she talked about it all the time. 422 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: That was sort of a triumph of her will over 423 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: you know, um, corporeal desire. You know, the the colony 424 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: of Virginia was named for her virginity. Um, you know, 425 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: so it was something really I didn't realize that. Yeah, 426 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: And so you know, she she gloried in it, not 427 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: because I think it showed sort of Christian virtue so 428 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: much as it showed her strength, you know, her resistance. Um. 429 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: And to actually have a colony um named for your 430 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: for your virginity is really quite extraordinary when you think 431 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, it really is. And if and if 432 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: and in fact, if any of these theories are ever 433 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: proven correct, well they have to rename Virginia. And what 434 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: would they rename it? More importantly, I guess you would 435 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: have called a pregnancia maybe west for us to be 436 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: West Pregnancia. Uh, you know, I haven't want I want 437 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: to say. By the way, I thought it was really 438 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: funny that Will Shakespeare makes an appearance in your book, 439 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: but he didn't actually get any lines. Well it was 440 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, I just was, as you know, 441 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: the Semper son it is a sonnet purported to be 442 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: by Shakespeare, which I unfortunately had to write um. And 443 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: then not only right, but in bed with all sorts 444 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: of cryptic clues and things like that. I was going 445 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: to ask you about that. How top was that it 446 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: was impossible? I spent so long, First of all, just 447 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: that just writing a Shakespeare sonnet, which this sonic will 448 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: full nobody that it was that it's by Shakespeare. But 449 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, just writing the sonnet um, you know, the 450 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: fourteen lines, with the with the with the rhyme scheme, um, 451 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: was really really hard. And then almost every line in 452 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: it has an embedded clue. UM. But I am you know, 453 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: I am addicted to English crosser puzzles. I don't know 454 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: if you're familiar with them from the Times, Lendon Times, 455 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: with the Guardian. They do different kinds of puzzles than 456 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: American puzzles, which I'm also addicted to. Um. They do 457 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: cryptic puzzles, UM, which are full of puns and anagrams 458 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: and double on tender and things like that. UM. And 459 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: all of that UM is very much embedded in the Sonnet, 460 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: and actually in other parts of the novel as well. 461 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: So and and that goes back to Shakespeare himself. He 462 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: you knows, you know, his his play days and and 463 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: as sonnets to a lesser extent are full of puns 464 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: and plays on words, you know. And I was in 465 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: Romeo and Juliet when Marcuccio is dying, UM, he's noticed 466 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: sort of a joker or a jester um, and he says, 467 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: I'm I may still be a joker, but asked for 468 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: me tomorrow, and you shall find me a grave man. 469 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: So any cryptic crossword compiler as they're called or set 470 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: or would would or creator would would love that double 471 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: entendre and would use it in in their in their crosswords. 472 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: And so I wanted to embed that in the Sonnet. 473 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: And then that was a way the Sonnet was a 474 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: way of connecting the story in Elizabeth's England with the 475 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: story in the twenty one century, because the Sonnet is 476 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: discovered by Lee Nichols and so, and she gradually uncovers 477 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: the meaning of the Sonnet and what it's said about 478 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's child, for instance. So why did you choose a 479 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: female lead character? Well, you know, I wanted to. I 480 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: thought it would be interesting to um. I thought it 481 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: would be interesting to make the part aagonist a woman. 482 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: I thought it would be an interesting contrast with um, 483 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: you know, Elizabeth living I guess four or five years 484 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: before and a woman living in the twenty one century, 485 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: and all the differences in their life. So that's that's 486 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: really how I came up with her. Was just thinking, 487 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, I want to write a novel about two women, essentially, 488 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: one the great Elizabeth and one someone named Liz living 489 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: in the current day who early Rather not to give 490 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: anything away, lead living in the current day, who um, 491 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: you know, has many more choices um, and can live 492 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: a much different life um. But and in some ways 493 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: has more sort of personal power than even an absolute 494 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: monarch living in the sixteenth century. UM. And that's that's 495 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: really how I came up with her. I thought it'd 496 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: be interesting to contrast two women living at different times. Uh, 497 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: and I made her a scholar of Elizabethan literature, just 498 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: because I knew that that would be how she would 499 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: plausibly come into contact with this supposedly lost sonnet and 500 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: be able to read it and understand its significance. So 501 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: so Lee Nichols goes on her own in the investigation, 502 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: rather than having a man backing her up or anything 503 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: like that, much kind of like Elizabeth. Yeah, and I 504 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: wanted that to be the case. Also, that she she 505 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: took her pleasure where she wanted and needed it, but 506 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: that she was very much determined to be independent and 507 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: to be alone and and and actually has you know, 508 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: twenty one century terms, we would say maybe intimacy problems. 509 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: I don't know that Elizabeth would have said that about herself, 510 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: but uh, and I and that's exactly right. That's that 511 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: That was the contrast that I thought would be interesting 512 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: to explore in this book. So you handed in an 513 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: email to us that there was a final clue in 514 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: the book that didn't get sold. Um, so what was 515 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: that final clue? Yeah, so I thought it would be fun. 516 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: As I said, I am, I am a avid solver 517 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: of English cryptic puzzles, particularly those in the Guardian, which 518 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: you can get you can download for from the internet. 519 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: And I'm hoping that the book will connect with people 520 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: um here and in England and everywhere who do these puzzles, 521 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: because it's they are a bit of an obsession Um 522 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: and the clues that are within the Sonnet are all 523 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: the kinds of clues that someone who solves English cryptic 524 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: puzzles would immediately see his clues and would work at 525 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: um and probably be able to solve. So when in 526 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: one of the very last scenes, I'm gonna try not 527 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: to give anything away about the novel, but in one 528 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: of the very last scenes of the Semper son itt Uh, 529 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: just before lee Um tosses I don't want to say, 530 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: but before she disposes of a certain important element in 531 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: the book, Let's say she writes, but she writes on 532 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: a piece of paper. I'll just read it. It's only 533 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: four short lines. She writes on a pizza paper. Here 534 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: queen for word, I'd bring from distant time and place 535 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: the auger class, the common man and firm embrace ony 536 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: Swaki mali post you friend of gold are made in France, 537 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: so only swacum ality post is the emblem of I 538 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: think it's the Royal how order of the Garden, but 539 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: it's actually the motto of the of the English royal family. Interestingly, 540 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: it's in France, but it means shame on you who 541 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: think bad of it. Only swaciuman ality post. So I'm 542 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: embedded that. But anyone who does cryptic cross words of 543 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: the type that run in the Garden at the times 544 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: would be able to hear read those four lines and 545 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: instantly know that those are cryptic clues that have a 546 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: very specific solution. So I have it in there. She 547 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: tosses it into the sea. The character lead but um 548 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: and and and doesn't tell the reader what those lines mean. 549 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: But I'm hoping that there are readers of the novel 550 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: who see it as a embedded clue and are able 551 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: to solve it. And I'm hoping to actually connect with them, 552 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: maybe through Twitter or Facebook or somehow, because it intrigues me, 553 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: and I'm curious how many people will will recognize that 554 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: for one of those like that, that would be really 555 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: interesting to see, you know, if people do solve it, 556 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: and you know who shows up to solve it, and 557 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: it'll be cool to see how many people respond. And 558 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: I'd like to ask you, by the way, they're going 559 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: to be a sequel to your book, where the problem 560 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: that's kind of at the heart of the Semper sonnet 561 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: will sort of come back again. Well, so I may 562 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: write a sequel. I've sort of fleshed that on my 563 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: mind a little bit. Um. It won't involve Semper per se. 564 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: It will involve Lee and the secret that we know 565 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: about her uh from the end of the book. Um. 566 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: And it will also involve her sort of a bridge 567 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: between the twenty one century and the character of Blee 568 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: and elizabethan England. So it will have that, it won't 569 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: be Semper again. So I have sort of sketched that 570 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: out a little bit of paper, mostly in my mind 571 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: because I like her as a character and I like 572 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: what we know about her at the end. I think 573 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: it's sort of interesting. Um, So it would be I 574 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: think it would be fun for me to to try 575 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: to keep her alive. So I'll see how, you know, 576 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: if readers connect with her as a actor, um, And 577 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: if I do, then I will definitely um, I will 578 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: solve the clue um for for all those who didn't 579 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: solve them on their own. Well, it's it's been fun 580 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: talking to you but indeed, yeah, but it's it's probably 581 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: you're probably out of time. And so is there anything 582 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: else before we wrap up the interview that you'd like 583 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: to tell us, Um, Well, not really. I mean, the 584 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: one thing that I think is interesting, um and that 585 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: might be relevant to this podcast is that one of 586 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: the theories you've probably come across it in your research 587 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: that that is not explored in the sempers on it, 588 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: but it's something I've been aware of and and sort 589 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: of in some ways ties it all together. That you know, 590 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: one of the other theories about Elizabeth is that she 591 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: actually was you know, had had a child with the 592 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: Earl of Oxford. So of course, you know, there's all 593 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: these theories that Elizabeth had a bastard child. But there's 594 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: also even more theories that Shakespeare didn't write his own plays, 595 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: and there's you know, all sorts of theories advanced for 596 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: who that could be. And one of them is Edward 597 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: de vere the Earl of a Start, who was in 598 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: fact a writer on his own and so you know, 599 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: the thought is that he was the true author of 600 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,719 Speaker 1: the works of Shakespeare. And so there are theories that 601 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: actually Elizabeth had an affair with him and that and 602 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: and and that their child um was someone was the 603 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: Earl of Southampton, who UM figures prominently um in some 604 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: of these In these theories, I think the sonnets are 605 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: are are dedicated to him. So in a weird way, 606 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: the conspiracy theories about Elizabeth, about Elizabeth having a child 607 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: and Shakespeare not writing his own books are conjoined with 608 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: this theory that she might have been actually had an 609 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: affair with the Earl of Oxford, Edward de Vere who 610 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: was the true, the true Shakespeare. There are also theories 611 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: that their son was the true Shakespeare uh, and that 612 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: Francis Bacon was and that she might have had an 613 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: affair with him, or that he in fact was the 614 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: son of hers. So it all gets very very tangled 615 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: um theories. It's also, you know, just as we it 616 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: seems frustrating that a great person like Elizabeth, you know, 617 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: couldn't pass on her greatness to another generation and generations 618 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: after that. There's also a frustration that, you know, the 619 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: greatest writer of the English language, perhaps any language, was 620 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: this obscure actor, playwright who we don't know much about. 621 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: It would be so much more satisfying to think that 622 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: he was one of these larger than life characters like 623 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: the Earl of Oxford or Francis bacon Um. And so 624 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: from that frustration, I think is born all of these 625 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories.