WEBVTT - How the Media Will Change After the Election

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<v Speaker 1>It's Wednesday, November four. I'm Oscar Ramires from the Daily

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<v Speaker 1>Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is reopening America.

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<v Speaker 1>The election this year will also mark the end of

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<v Speaker 1>an era for the media, and things will change no

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<v Speaker 1>matter what. The media has revolved around the president for

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<v Speaker 1>the last four years, and the pandemic has advanced the

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<v Speaker 1>new landscape digitally by years. There will be a wave

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<v Speaker 1>of retirements in places like the l a Times, Washington Post,

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<v Speaker 1>and even the New York Times. Battles over free speech

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<v Speaker 1>and censorship will also continue when it comes to big

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<v Speaker 1>social media platforms. Ben Smith, media columnist at the New

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<v Speaker 1>York Times, joins us for how the media will be

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<v Speaker 1>changing after the election. Thanks for joining us, Ben, Thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for having me out. After this election is going to

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<v Speaker 1>be a lot of interesting things changing for the media.

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<v Speaker 1>And really, no matter who wins, the landscape has been

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<v Speaker 1>changed throughout these last four years of President Trump's presidency,

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<v Speaker 1>being attacked as fake news, a lot of distrust in

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<v Speaker 1>certain ways, but he's also kind of made these legacy

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<v Speaker 1>media eight again, so to speak, to use his verbiage.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, he's put so much emphasis on them and

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<v Speaker 1>such a spotlight on them that really they were booming.

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<v Speaker 1>Business was booming in that sense. So then you wrote

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<v Speaker 1>an article about how it is the end of an

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<v Speaker 1>era for the media no matter who wins. Tell us

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about what you're seeing on what's going

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<v Speaker 1>to happen after this election. Well, I think you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you had a situation whereas anybody knows, people are consuming

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<v Speaker 1>media on their phones, not sitting down on the couch

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<v Speaker 1>and watching broadcast news anymore. And I think Donald Trump's

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<v Speaker 1>obsession with things like CNN, like the NBC nightly News

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<v Speaker 1>kind of kept them more relevant than any expect anybody

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<v Speaker 1>expected them to be. The same is true by the

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<v Speaker 1>way of the New York Times and the Washington Post

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<v Speaker 1>in places like that. Just that there was a Trump's

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<v Speaker 1>personal obsession with these legacy media kind of kept them

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<v Speaker 1>in the center of the conversation. That there was always

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<v Speaker 1>a time limit on that. And I think just you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you're already starting to see a recognition among the particularly

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<v Speaker 1>the big broadcasters, to the future is going to be digital,

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<v Speaker 1>and that they've really got to figure it out and

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<v Speaker 1>take it seriously and can no longer have to stop

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about themselves as television channels and it's a very

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<v Speaker 1>hard transition that they've been putting off for a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>I think when you look at the big newspaper is

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<v Speaker 1>one of the really interesting things. The New York Times,

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<v Speaker 1>the Washington Post, Los Angeles Times in particular, all of

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<v Speaker 1>their editors in chief are on the way out the

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<v Speaker 1>door over the next months and year. Yeah, talk a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about that, because that's an interesting shift, right.

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<v Speaker 1>There are people that have been in these posts for

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<v Speaker 1>so long are going to be leaving soon depending on

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<v Speaker 1>who comes in. It's going to change the landscape again,

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<v Speaker 1>and how we cover presidents, how we cover just everyday

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<v Speaker 1>occurrences in life. So all that's going to change. So

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<v Speaker 1>tell us a little bit about what you're hearing on

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<v Speaker 1>that front. I think there are really two different things

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<v Speaker 1>going on. One is that you have a generation of

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<v Speaker 1>leaders who really see, you know, our newspaper men Marty

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<v Speaker 1>Baron at the Washington posting Decay at the Times and

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<v Speaker 1>Norman Pearlstein at the Los Angeles Times, and who really

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<v Speaker 1>oversaw a fairly painful transition from newsrooms that were print

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<v Speaker 1>newspapers to digital brands, and those transitions, at least at

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<v Speaker 1>the Post in the Times are close are getting close

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<v Speaker 1>to being complete, and there's an opportunity for new leaders

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<v Speaker 1>to come in and really fully inhabit this new world

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<v Speaker 1>rather than having to manage transition to it. And then

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<v Speaker 1>I think right there these big questions around does the

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<v Speaker 1>media pull back toward a more sort of conservative just

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<v Speaker 1>the facts, ma'am approach. Then under Donald Trump, I think

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<v Speaker 1>it was so much of Trump's politics were directly about

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<v Speaker 1>attacking these big media brands. There wasn't much choice around

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<v Speaker 1>engaging him. You know. It wasn't just that he was

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<v Speaker 1>lying and said he was lying about us and making

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<v Speaker 1>us the focus and pulling us sort of into the arena.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think there's a question which I think is

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<v Speaker 1>not at all a done deal, about whether these institutions

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<v Speaker 1>try to retreat back more toward traditional roles or whether

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<v Speaker 1>they try to kind of like blean into this more

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<v Speaker 1>engaged posture that, by the way, maybe drives digital subscriptions

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<v Speaker 1>a little better. And I think that's a big question

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<v Speaker 1>that I don't really know the answer to how it

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<v Speaker 1>comes out. You mentioned a little bit about how the

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<v Speaker 1>big media giants are you going to have to really

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<v Speaker 1>complete that transition to digital things like that, But on

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<v Speaker 1>the other side of those things, social media and the

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<v Speaker 1>big social media giants like Twitter and Facebook and all that.

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<v Speaker 1>They've been coming under a lot of scrutiny recently about

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<v Speaker 1>censorship things like that, especially on the conservative side. And

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<v Speaker 1>there was a term that was coined by something that

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned the article called the attention wars and kind

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<v Speaker 1>of basically all these different outlets grasping for your attention everything.

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<v Speaker 1>So how did these social media giants fit into this?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I think the sort of wide open, kind

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<v Speaker 1>of wild West era of Facebook and Twitters is and

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<v Speaker 1>and YouTube is really ending, and they're coming under a

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<v Speaker 1>sort of political pressure to kind of clean up the platforms,

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<v Speaker 1>which means, by the way, marginalizing voices that had been unconventional.

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<v Speaker 1>Means if you're looking for a conservative voice on YouTube,

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<v Speaker 1>increasingly you're going to find Fox News, not some random

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<v Speaker 1>YouTuber for better or for worse. And if you're looking

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<v Speaker 1>for a liberal voice, you're probably more likely to find MSNBC.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think there's also sort of a wave of

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<v Speaker 1>regulatory pressure coming that's going to make them more responsible

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<v Speaker 1>for things maybe not from being posted on the platform,

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<v Speaker 1>but are things that get wide distribution, for things that

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<v Speaker 1>go viral and it's not something Americans pail a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of attention to, but they're under a lot of pressure

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia and in Europe. And I think because the

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<v Speaker 1>US traditionally doesn't regulate these platforms and it's very you know,

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<v Speaker 1>does not regulate speech, that doesn't mean they don't have

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<v Speaker 1>to operate in other parts of the world. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think the practices that developed their tend to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>bleed back into the US, and I think I think

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<v Speaker 1>that is really ramping up. And so there's just a

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<v Speaker 1>whole bunch of different factors that are pushing them toward

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<v Speaker 1>a more control the ecosystem. Doesn't this really mean censorship

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<v Speaker 1>per se that thinks you can getting deleted? I think

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<v Speaker 1>it means it's gonna be harder for you or for

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<v Speaker 1>me as an outsider to come in and try to

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<v Speaker 1>make a message spread on these platforms. And what is

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<v Speaker 1>going on in Australia in the European Union. Obviously these

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<v Speaker 1>companies operate across all these countries. So are these countries

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<v Speaker 1>making specific laws that are regulating them that then in

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<v Speaker 1>turn impacts the way we do it? You know? What's

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<v Speaker 1>going on there? Yeah? You know, I think we in

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<v Speaker 1>the US have had this sort of philosophy of Wow,

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<v Speaker 1>these new technology companies are so amazing and magical that

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<v Speaker 1>we don't want to regulate them. We want to let

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<v Speaker 1>them flourish. We're not going to treat them like normal businesses.

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<v Speaker 1>We're gonna let them do whatever they want. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think there's an argument that did help them become these

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<v Speaker 1>dominant world global forces and incredibly vibrant American businesses. But

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia they're saying, well, Google is the monopoly, just

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<v Speaker 1>like a railroad or like a port, and they put

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<v Speaker 1>again the assigned a guy who's been his career regulating

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<v Speaker 1>railroads and ports to like figure out how much they

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<v Speaker 1>ought to pay to use the content of news publishers

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<v Speaker 1>and things like that. And in Europe there, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>they're saying, well, if, like, if Google News is going

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<v Speaker 1>to take a headline from a newspaper, they should pay

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<v Speaker 1>for that headline and that stuff that he's sort of

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<v Speaker 1>unthinkable here, but they're there. They don't really see any

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<v Speaker 1>reason to treat these tech companies any different from any

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<v Speaker 1>other company. They're just making some laws and demanding they

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<v Speaker 1>follow them. One last thing that I wanted to ask

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<v Speaker 1>as well that you mention your article when we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about all these different types of media now even pay

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<v Speaker 1>for media. There's a place called sub stack, which you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of like a Twitter premium where people can

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<v Speaker 1>kind of subscribe to journalists, their favorite journalists or whatnot,

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<v Speaker 1>and continue to get their newsletters and their con t

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<v Speaker 1>How does this figure into the future of media and

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<v Speaker 1>how and how it will be changing as these big

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<v Speaker 1>social media giants sort of consolidate and make it harder

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<v Speaker 1>for independent voices and outsiders to cut through, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>whether those are really creative, interesting, constructive voices or people

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<v Speaker 1>spreading hate. Meanwhile, there are these tools that allow individuals

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<v Speaker 1>to go direct to their consumers in a in a

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<v Speaker 1>way that isn't controllable I think by the big central platforms,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think you're in sub stack and email newsletter

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<v Speaker 1>platform is one of those. But they're just technical tools

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<v Speaker 1>now that allow you or me to start a newsletter,

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<v Speaker 1>start a video channel, and if we have a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people who like our content, to get paid doing it.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's sort of easy now in a way that

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<v Speaker 1>it used to be hard. I think you'll see, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>both big stars and kind of knit people who have

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<v Speaker 1>small but passionate follow us start to go that way. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>everything's going to change after the election. Will see how

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<v Speaker 1>it all plays out. Ben Smith, media columnist at The

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<v Speaker 1>New York Times, thank you very much for joining us,

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for having me out. I'm Oscar Romes and this

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<v Speaker 1>has been reopening America. Don't forget that. For today's big

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<v Speaker 1>news stories, you can check me out on the Daily

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<v Speaker 1>Dive podcast every Monday Friday. So follow us on I

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<v Speaker 1>Heart Radio or wherever you get your podcast.