1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch Just Live weekdays at 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: noon Eastern on Appocarplay and. 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 2: Then Roudo with the Bloomberg Business app. 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: us live on YouTube. 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 2: Thursday edition, It's Little Friday and the word at the 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 2: White House's outrage following, of course, the killing of seven 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: volunteers AID workers at the World Central Kitchen working for 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: Jose Andres, it really seemed to be, if not a 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: turning point, an inflection point here in the conversation about 12 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 2: this administration's policy in Israel when it comes to Israel's 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 2: war against Hamas and the conduct that we're seeing inside 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: of Gaza. The President today, of course, is going to 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: be meeting with Benjaminett and Yahoo, which is our top 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 2: story now. As I said earlier, to be a fly 17 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: on the wall, or I guess a fly on the line. 18 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: They will not be in the same room, but it 19 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 2: is expected that Joe Biden is going to give Benjamin 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: Etia who a piece of his mind. The question is 21 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: will it matter in the end as we continue to 22 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 2: send weapons to Israel and we're hearing from quarters throughout 23 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: the Democratic Party here, former Obama officials expressing outrage, allies 24 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 2: of the president like Chris Coon's Senator Van Holland in Maryland, 25 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 2: typically those who are there to express support. And this 26 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: is a big deal on the campaign trail, which is 27 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 2: why we wanted to spend some time with Nia Malika Henderson, 28 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: who's always writing about the Biden campaign and this race 29 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: to the White House for Bloomberg Opinion. She's with us 30 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 2: at the table now and it's great to see you. 31 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: Thanks for coming in. This is tough when you're hearing 32 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: from Jon Favreau, when you're hearing from allies on Capitol Hill. 33 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,279 Speaker 2: I can only imagine what Barack Obama tells Joe Biden 34 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: if they're talking behind closed doors. We're not going to 35 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 2: see or hear this meeting today. So what's the job 36 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: for Joe Biden listen. 37 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 3: I think it's to express what he's somewhat already expressed, 38 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 3: which is outrage at what has happened here with these 39 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 3: volunteer workers who are really doing the Lord's work right 40 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 3: feeding these folks. Starvation is an issue in this area, 41 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 3: and you have here a situation where seven are killed. 42 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 3: About the IDF, they have said this was an accident. 43 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 3: You've heard from jose and Andreas who has said he 44 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 3: feels like these aid workers were targeted, which is quite 45 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 3: a big claim to make. And of course this will 46 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 3: be the subject of this conversation that Joe Biden has 47 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 3: with Bibi Netanyahu. You know, I think the real question is, 48 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 3: as you said, is this sort of a turning point 49 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 3: or is it sort of something more subtle, an inflection point. 50 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 3: Does this change the conduct of the war from the 51 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 3: point of view of the IDEF going after Hamas? Does 52 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 3: it change America support? You've heard from the White House 53 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: so far that it won't, that they will continue to 54 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 3: supply arms to Israel. And listening you've heard from people 55 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 3: like Bernie Sanders, who you know, obviously a Jewish American, say, 56 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 3: does this make Americans complicit? 57 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: Right? 58 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 3: This idea that we're funding this war with taxpayer dollars 59 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 3: that is ending up killing so many not only Palasian civilians, 60 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 3: but more recently of this terribly tragic accident where these 61 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 3: aid workers were killed. 62 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is making it more difficult now to 63 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: bring aid. The idea of a temporary peer appears to 64 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 2: be if not on hold up in the air because 65 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 2: the aid organizations don't have an agreement yet here and 66 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,959 Speaker 2: they don't want to put their people right at risk. 67 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: Remember at one point, Joe Biden at the beginning was saying, 68 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: you know, the way to deal with BB is to 69 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: hug him, to hold him even closer at times like these. 70 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: They've been estranged essentially for months. Now does he need 71 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:37,839 Speaker 2: to start hugging him again? 72 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 3: Well, listen, you know that sort of hugging of BB. 73 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 3: That was their history, right, Biden and BB, we're close, 74 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 3: and now you hear out of this White House real 75 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 3: discontent from Biden in terms of BB's actions and in 76 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 3: terms of some of his rhetoric, and some of it 77 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 3: has been quite profane in terms of the way Biden 78 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 3: has referred to BB Netanyahu. And we'll see. I'm sure 79 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: we'll get a readout of this call at some point. 80 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 3: But listen, Democrats sanitized reading, right, No, no curse words, 81 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 3: but listen, they may share some on this phone call. 82 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: So that's the kind of conversation we're talking about. Though 83 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 2: the thing is politically speaking, like I said, we can't 84 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 2: watch or listen, So Joe Biden can't reap the political 85 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: benefits from that that he saw born out again in 86 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 2: the polls in another primary night this week with a 87 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: protest vote that won't go away. You've written about this, 88 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 2: Is it getting worse? 89 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 4: You know? 90 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 3: Listen, I think it's certainly not getting any better. 91 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 4: Right. 92 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: You've had instances where the White House has tried to 93 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 3: reach out to some of these leaders Palestinian Americans, Arab 94 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 3: Americans who are sort of at the tip of the 95 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 3: spear of this anti difety. 96 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: Director of National Security to Michigan for you right now, Yeah, 97 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: that's serious. 98 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, And he's had one on one meetings with some 99 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 3: of these folks. And listen, some of these folks have 100 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 3: walked out of meetings that they've had face to face 101 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: with Joe Biden to express their displeasure, to go public 102 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 3: with their displeasure, but also to try to get this 103 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 3: White House to change course, right, to have a ceasefire, 104 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 3: to have more skin in the game in terms of 105 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 3: what BB is doing over there. We have been loyal 106 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 3: allies the US has obviously of Israel throughout this whole thing, 107 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 3: and the elimination of Hamas is their stated goal. And 108 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 3: as of now, the US is continuing to support that goal, 109 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 3: which means providing arms and ammunition to the idea of. 110 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: As we spend time with Neia Malika Henderson writing for 111 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Opinion and the Headline today, Mitt Romney should campaign 112 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: for Joe Biden. This all ties in together here. This 113 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 2: is the time in which Joe Biden needs to start 114 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: to start consolidating here, and it's taking a general campaign seriously, 115 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: has been raising a lot of money. But your point 116 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 2: is what happens to these never trumpers, a lot of 117 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: whom turned out. Nikki Haley pulled ten percent in all 118 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: four of those states the other night. But you're looking 119 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: at folks like Chris Christy, like Mitt Romney, even Liz Cheney. 120 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: What world are we in when Liz Cheney could possibly 121 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: endorse Ji. 122 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 3: I mean this is you know, she hasn't officially, but 123 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 3: she has said she will do everything. 124 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 2: And you think he needs to start asking. 125 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 3: I think he well, listen, I think he could start 126 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 3: asking at some point. You know, there was a there 127 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 3: was a piece in Political that said, yes, he should 128 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 3: start asking. My thing is, if these folks are saying 129 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 3: that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy, then that 130 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 3: should be enough to make them campaign for Joe Biden. 131 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 3: I talked to Sarah Matthews, who was somebody who worked 132 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 3: in the Trump White House. She was sort of up 133 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 3: close and impersonal during the January sixth events and resigned 134 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 3: as a result. She is anti Trump, but she's also 135 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 3: pro Biden. And she said, listen, she feels like she 136 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:37,799 Speaker 3: needs to come out and say she's going to endorse 137 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 3: Joe Biden because it makes what she says about Trump 138 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 3: more real. 139 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 2: And she pro bid protest. 140 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 3: It's sort of both, you know, it's it's anti Trump, 141 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 3: but it ends up being pro Biden. 142 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 4: Right. 143 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, she's no, that's the thing. She is going 144 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 3: to vote for Joe Biden, and she's telling other people 145 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 3: that they should. 146 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 5: Christ. 147 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: I mean, think of the time they spent dumping on 148 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 2: Joe Biden. That be kind of crazy to term. 149 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 3: I think you're exactly right, you know, and almost you know, 150 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 3: you think about the conventions in this summer, and typically 151 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 3: you'll have somebody from the other party indoors whoever the 152 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 3: Republican nominee or the Democratic nominee. Who will that be 153 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 3: this go round? You know, if if I have to guess, 154 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 3: either Liz Cheney or Chris Grissy. I imagine it could 155 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 3: be Liz Cheney. That would be given the fact that 156 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 3: she's out there. 157 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 2: You could almost see it happening. 158 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 5: I could. 159 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: I could see it happened with Liz Chaney. Not so 160 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 3: much Chris Christy. 161 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 5: Wow. 162 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So that's the's Remember when Joe Lieberman came 163 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: out at that would be the moment that would be 164 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: this convention exactly. 165 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 3: And so last time for in twenty twenty, it was 166 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 3: John Kaysik for for Joe Biden. You know, we sort 167 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 3: of forget that convention because. 168 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: It was in a traditional almost like it didn't happen. 169 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 3: It was in a COVID era and so so I 170 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 3: you know, if I had to put money on it, 171 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 3: my mom doesn't like me to bet. 172 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: I would bet good stuff. Chaney, We play this back 173 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: when it happens. 174 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 5: Yeah. 175 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: As for the rest of them, Mitt Romney is another one, 176 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: another name out there that seems maybe pliable when it 177 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: comes to a Biden. 178 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 3: Keem, I think that's right. You know, again, he has 179 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 3: come out and said that he's not going to vote 180 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 3: for Donald Trump. He voted twice to impeach him. He's 181 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 3: a man of deep faith. Joe Biden also a man 182 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 3: of deep faith, and I think in that way he 183 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 3: could talk about Joe Biden's faith and suggests that he 184 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 3: would make a better president than Donald Trump. Listen, these 185 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 3: people need to have a spine, they need to have 186 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 3: some skin in the game. If they are in fact 187 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: truly believing that they want to block Donald Trump from 188 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 3: being president, then the only way to do that really 189 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 3: is to I think bolster Joe Biden. 190 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 2: Well, so then you wonder where does the endorsement go. 191 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 2: And you're talking about the anti Trump Republicans who could 192 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: vote for Joe Biden, those who held Donald Trump to 193 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: under eighty percent as you write in the Wisconsin primary 194 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 2: this week. So okay, you got it, Chris Christy or 195 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: a Mitt Romney. How does that translate to people, real 196 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 2: voters on the ground. 197 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 3: You know, that's the big question. And I think the 198 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 3: University of voters of anti Trump voters probably like ten percent, 199 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 3: and those people were critical in that's the difference. That's 200 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 3: the difference in these states right there are going to 201 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 3: be you know, decided by a couple of thousand votes 202 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 3: here and there, and so this is going to be 203 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 3: an all hands on deck election. If you think that 204 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 3: Donald Trump should not be anywhere near the White House, 205 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 3: as Liz Cheney has said, then if you're Chris Christy, 206 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 3: if you're Mitt Romney, you need to get on board 207 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: with Joe Biden and try to help him in some 208 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 3: of these states Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. We're the sort of moderate Republicans, 209 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 3: sort of a chamber of commerce. Republicans are Mitt Romney. 210 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 3: I think Chris Christy, Liz Cheney can speak to those guys. 211 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 2: We still call them Lincoln Project Republicans. Maybe that was 212 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: the last I got to ask you about this fundraiser 213 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 2: that Trump is talking about. 214 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, thirty million dollars. 215 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 2: Well supposedly, Yes, this is after Joe Biden, you know, 216 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: pulled twenty five million. I think it was at Radio 217 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: City's up there on the riser with Bill Clinton, I know, 218 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: Brock Obama, and you know somebody was watching from mar 219 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: A Lago totally and was so bothered by this that 220 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: he had to top it. So there will be a 221 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 2: fundraiser apparently this will be in Palm Beach for twenty 222 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 2: three million, reportedly on Saturday. He's got all the billionaires 223 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: lined up. The criticism here from an actual campaign organizing 224 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: standpoint is you just front loaded the whole thing, and 225 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: we're peaking early. You mean for some fundraising for Donald 226 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: Trump the case, Yeah, yeah, to throw this event, is 227 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: he helping himself trying to one up Joe. 228 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 3: Listen, We'll see what the actual numbers are. You know, 229 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 3: it literally came out the day that this this fundraiser 230 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 3: with uh with Democrats came out. Then you know, Donald 231 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 3: Trump says, oh, we're gonna have thirty million out and 232 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 3: maybe up to forty three million. We'll see once the 233 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 3: FEC reports come out how much they actually uh you know, 234 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 3: are able to raise. You know, I think a real 235 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 3: problem for Donald Trump is he doesn't have those small 236 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 3: dollar donors in the way that he used to that 237 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 3: really powered his campaign, that really I think spoke to 238 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 3: the grassroots energy of it. So he's he's got his 239 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 3: hand out for these billionaires to really try to juice 240 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 3: up his campaign, juice up his campaign. Coffers again, he's 241 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 3: got all these legal problems. Some of that money that 242 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 3: is he's quite frankly is going to go to some 243 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 3: of these legal issues that he has. But they need 244 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 3: some money, they need a big headline, and they need 245 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 3: to start spending there. They don't have the kind of 246 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 3: offices and the sort of ad reach that the Democrats 247 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 3: have had so far. But it's early, still is going. 248 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: I don't think Listen is going to be I don't 249 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 3: think she's Greenwood. 250 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 2: Might that might be different, Yes, I fact, I would 251 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: expect that the Bible here you go exactly. Don't be 252 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 2: a stranger. Neia Malika Henderson speaking of Lord's work. Find 253 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: her column on the terminal and online. It's always a 254 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: pleasure to see you, uh with us here in the 255 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: Washington Bureau at Bloomberg. I'm Joe Matthew. This is Balance 256 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 2: of Power on Bloomberg Radio, on the satellite and on YouTube, 257 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 2: where you can find us right now by searching Bloomberg 258 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 2: Global News. Of course, we've been hearing a lot about 259 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: the border this week. Is well, Israel and the border 260 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: are following Joe Biden everywhere he goes. Just a couple 261 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: of days ago, Donald Trump talking about this remember the 262 00:11:54,920 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 2: border bloodbath, and refer to prisoners, murderers, drug dealers, mental payas, 263 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: and terrorists crossing the border on the daily. And we 264 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: wanted to talk about some of the rhetoric that we're 265 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: hearing on both sides of this whole story with an 266 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,359 Speaker 2: expert who has been with us before on the program, 267 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 2: David Leopold Immigration charit you B. Greensfelder spent time as 268 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 2: general counsel at the American Immigration Lawyers Association. David, it's 269 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 2: good to see you. Welcome back. We understand that the 270 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 2: fact is, according to our at least government agencies, most 271 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 2: people crossing the border are poor families. So we're trying 272 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 2: to escape either poverty or violence. How does that jive 273 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 2: with what we're hearing from the former president when it 274 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: comes to prisoners, murderers, drug dealers, and mental patients. 275 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 6: Well, the former president doesn't base anything he says in 276 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 6: fact reality. He based it in terms of how we 277 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 6: can red up his base with hatred and vitriol and 278 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 6: all that sort of thing. Look, number one, you're right, 279 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 6: these are families coming to seek a better life. I'm 280 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 6: not judging either way, whether we're doing it the right way, 281 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 6: but these are families coming to seek a better life 282 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 6: in this country for they themselves and their children, like 283 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 6: so many of our parents and grandparents and great grandparents did. 284 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 6: So they're they're they're fulfilling what America is all about, 285 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 6: the promise of a land of op opportunity. Sadly, the 286 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 6: Republicans donald Trump who basically that is the Republican Party, 287 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 6: have made this into their their issue. We're talking throwing 288 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 6: out all kinds of incendiar statements. They're ginning up a 289 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 6: lot of hatred. They're talking about great replacement theories, which 290 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 6: is an anti Semitic trope. It's ugly. What's going on, Replican? 291 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: So what's going to happen between now and the election? David? 292 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: I wish I had more time with you, but our 293 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 2: next minute or so, I would love for you to 294 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: describe to me what the border will look like when 295 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 2: people are making up their minds this fall. Because the 296 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 2: borders security compromise that was put together, of course on 297 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: Capitol Hill is apparently never going to see the light 298 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 2: of day until after the election. 299 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 6: Right right. Most remember why, and that's because Donald Trump 300 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 6: wanted to use it as a campaign issue. He didn't 301 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 6: want to solve the problem, wanted to yell about the problem. 302 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 6: So that's why he ordered the people who wrote the bill, 303 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 6: the senators who work closely with the Republican senators who 304 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 6: work on a bipartisan basis, who wrote the border bill, 305 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 6: an immigration which we have gone a long way towards 306 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 6: the solving a lot of this. Donald Trump said, no, 307 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 6: don't do it. I want to use that as a 308 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 6: campaign issue so I can spread all my vitrail and hatred. 309 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 6: So what's going to happen. What's going to happen, sadly, 310 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 6: is you're going to see Donald Trump and the Republican 311 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 6: enablers use immigration as a way to get there the 312 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 6: base thirty percent that supports them in this country upset 313 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 6: and angry and full of hatred. 314 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 4: On the other side, you'll see Joe Biden talk about. 315 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 6: It, accomplishments, and Morgon's done for the country. 316 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: David Leopold with you. B Greensfelder. Thank you David for 317 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: coming back to see us. I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg. 318 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast Ken 319 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: just live weekdays at noon Eastern on Apple car Play 320 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: and then roud Oro with the Bloomberg Business app. You 321 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 322 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 323 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 7: Joe and I are wishing we could have an ear 324 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 7: to the door in the White House right now as 325 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 7: President Biden speaks by phone with the Israeli Prime Minister 326 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 7: Benjamin Netanyaho. As you mentioned, Joe, it may be some 327 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 7: time before we actually get a readout or at least 328 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 7: lines from the White House on what exactly it is 329 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 7: Biden and Nenyaho discussed today, but we know probably the 330 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 7: general gist of what the messaging from the US President 331 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 7: to the Prime Minister will be. 332 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: That's for sure. You made a great point. Following what 333 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: happened on Monday. The story just changed, the opbed from 334 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 2: Jose andres the outcry that we've heard, the outrage that 335 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 2: we've heard from progressive Democrats. This was not supposed to 336 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: be an easy call, and I suspect that it is not. 337 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 2: As we recall, and I mentioned this earlier today, that 338 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: line from Joe Biden that when you're having trouble with 339 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: Benjamin and Yaho, you hug him closer. And I wonder 340 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: how much hugging is going on right now for two 341 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: men who have been largely estranged for the past couple 342 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: of months. That's why we bring in Ian Marlow for 343 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: his take on this. Bloomberg Senior reporter covering diplomacy. Ian 344 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: is waiting just like we are for a readout on 345 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: this meeting. I wonder ian your thoughts on what might 346 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: happen next and whether it leads to a change in policy. 347 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 8: That's the big question everyone is asking right now. There's 348 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 8: no question that what happened with the World Central Kitchen 349 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 8: that aid workers, the seven of them who were killed 350 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 8: in that awful strike earlier this week, has changed the 351 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 8: sort of tone and dynamic, and I think you've seen 352 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 8: that from the Israeli side, apologies from the very highest 353 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 8: levels of Israeli government and the Israeli military apparatus, Biden 354 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 8: coming out saying is outraged, Secretary of Defense Austin saying 355 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 8: much the same. The question, though, is does this move 356 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 8: the needle really when it comes to conditioning US military 357 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 8: support to Israel. And at the moment, you know, everything 358 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 8: that we see and hear from the administration seems to 359 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 8: be that they're sort of continuing. 360 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 9: The line here. 361 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 8: They've called for a swift and transparent investigation in the past. 362 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 8: In the last few months, when we've seen incidents where 363 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 8: the US has expressed concern or even something getting close 364 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 8: to condemnation of strikes that have killed too many civilians, 365 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 8: or AID not getting in. We've generally heard, you know, 366 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 8: we're concerned, we trust the Israelis to investigate, and we're 367 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 8: sort of staying the course. What we saw the other 368 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 8: week with the US not using their veto at the 369 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 8: UN to knock down a United Nations resolution of the 370 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 8: Security Council calling for an immediate ceasefire. That was sort 371 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 8: of a sign of how strain things have gotten between 372 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 8: the US and Israel. But doing something in at the UN, 373 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 8: which the US immediately came out and said was non 374 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 8: binding and stressed that it didn't really change much and 375 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 8: actually changing you know, the hard you know impact of 376 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 8: military support, which is you know, been. 377 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 4: Going on for decades and a. 378 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 8: Cornerstone of the relationship. That's a very big and different 379 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 8: change that we're talking about. 380 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,719 Speaker 7: Yeah, well, Ian, we had a similar conversation yesterday on 381 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 7: this program with Jonathan Panakoff of the Atlantic Council, and 382 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 7: what he told us was essentially the only leverage the 383 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 7: US has over Israel is really big ticket items. It's 384 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 7: intelligence sharing, it's F fifteen's, it's major bombs. That is 385 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 7: what foundationally this relationship has historically been built on. And 386 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 7: if you were to start conditioning that kind of supply 387 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 7: that would fundamentally change the nature of the US Israel relationship. 388 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 7: Is the fact the matter here that there's just not 389 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 7: really any low hanging fruit for the US to be 390 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 7: using to influence the actions of Israel at this point. 391 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, I think and Pedacov has made the 392 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 8: point that you can't go from zero to twenty five 393 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 8: here with this kind of military aid stuff that goes 394 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 8: straight to zero to sixty, do you know what I mean? 395 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 8: There's not many things left that the US can tinker with. 396 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 8: I think US officials, you know, you know, believe that 397 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 8: they have condition and influenced Israel over the course of 398 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 8: the conflict. 399 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 10: You know, they point to. 400 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 8: Things like humanitarian aid getting through in the first place, 401 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 8: which was never really a priority for Israel in the 402 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 8: early days of the war. I was actually on Secretary 403 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 8: Blincoln's trip to Israel where they engaged in something like 404 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 8: nine hours of negotiations that went until the middle of 405 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 8: the night, you know, trying to get the Israelis to 406 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 8: let in or agree to let in humanitarian aid and 407 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 8: like the early weeks of the war. So, you know, 408 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 8: the US does believe that they have had some influence 409 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 8: over Israel since the beginning. But if you're a critic 410 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,959 Speaker 8: of the administration, if you're a critic of Israel, if 411 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 8: you're one of the protesters outside you know, some of 412 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 8: the embassies, or you know, down in front of the 413 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 8: State Department or the White House, you know, looking at 414 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 8: what's happened since the war began, you know, it's kind 415 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 8: of cold comfort. I mean, the US says that there's 416 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 8: that helped with humanitarian aid, but then you see that 417 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 8: there's a looming sort of man made famine, as the 418 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 8: UN says, you know, there's now more than thirty thousand 419 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 8: civilians killed according to the officials in the Hamas run 420 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 8: Gaza strip, and it just kind of looks still that 421 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 8: things have gotten worse, and so a lot of people 422 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 8: think conditioning military aid is the only thing left. But 423 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 8: it does really seem to be a little bit too 424 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 8: far for this administration, and they have argued, you know, 425 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 8: privately and publicly, that that would send a message to 426 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 8: Hamas that the US is really sort of on the 427 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 8: brink of abandoning Israel entirely because without US military support, 428 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 8: you know, Israel is going to be you know, iron 429 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 8: dome missiles to munitions they're using in Gaza. A lot 430 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 8: of that stuff would start to fall off and suffer 431 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 8: sort of, you know, in the New York term. And 432 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 8: then there's the longer term threats you know, from Hasbela 433 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 8: nanon the other Iranian proxies around the region. 434 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 7: So there's a lot to think about there, absolutely. Ian 435 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 7: Marlow Bloomberg, senior reporter covering Diplomacy and National Security, thank 436 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 7: you so much, as always for joining us. He of course, 437 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 7: has been following this story so closely, including, as he mentioned, 438 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 7: traveling with the Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln to the region. 439 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 7: It's worth noting Joe that it's not just the Middle 440 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 7: East where Secretary Blincoln has been going or could very 441 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 7: well go again in the future. He is expected to 442 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 7: make his own trip to China a few weeks from 443 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 7: now after Treasury Secretary Jenney Yellen. 444 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 2: Ian was with him on the list. What is a 445 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: matter of fact, and this is you know, fascinating Jennet 446 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: Yellen touching down there this morning. Are we getting into 447 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: this sort of good cop bad cop mode with Yellen 448 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: and Blincoln? And then you know, in every quarterly call 449 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 2: maybe with Joe Biden. I'm kind of trying to understand 450 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 2: the roles that everyone in this administration are playing. 451 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's an excellent point. I would certainly expect that 452 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 7: Janet Yellen, in her position as the Secretary of the 453 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 7: Treasury and also as a former Federal Reserve chair, will 454 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 7: be far more focused on economic issues than maybe some 455 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 7: of the geopolitical issues around Taiwan or something else that 456 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 7: the Secretary of State would probably bring. But this is 457 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 7: part of just a rotation of cabinet secretaries talking about 458 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 7: all of their different issues that retain to their departments 459 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 7: as they make these visits to China. And on that note, 460 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 7: we want to speak with someone who knows China incredibly well. 461 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 7: Gary Locke is joining us now. He's former US Ambassador 462 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 7: to China, also former US Secretary of Commerce. Mister Locke, 463 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 7: thank you so much for being with us. This is, 464 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 7: as we've mentioned, Secretary Yellen's second trip in nine months. 465 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 7: What tangible could come out of this second visit? How 466 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 7: much tangible ever comes out of things like this. 467 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 9: Well, first of all, it's a pleasure to be with you, 468 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 9: Joe and Kayley. And let me just say that this 469 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 9: trip by Secretary Yellen is very important in continuing the 470 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 9: progress and the momentum of talks between President Biden and 471 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 9: President She many many months ago. We're seeing a thaw 472 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 9: in the relationship. And it's critical because we have issues 473 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 9: of great contention between the United States and China, but 474 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 9: also issues and opportunities of great cooperation, whether it's working 475 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 9: against North Korea to stop them from developing a nuclear weapon, 476 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 9: to finding a cure for cancer or trying to address 477 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 9: climate change. There are so many areas in which the 478 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 9: world is expecting partnership and leadership from both the United 479 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 9: States and China. But at the same time, we have 480 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 9: some very difficult, very hot issues, economic issues, geopolitical issues 481 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 9: between the United States and China. So the more dialogue 482 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 9: there is between the top leaders, top officials of both countries, 483 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 9: the greater the progress will be in these areas. 484 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: Ambassador, we heard from Secretary Yellen on her stopover her 485 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 2: layover in Alaska on the way to China, speaking specifically 486 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 2: to our economic relationship, which has been evolving. Listen to 487 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: what she said and we'll have you respond here. 488 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 11: She is it's agreed that it's important to both of 489 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 11: us that we don't want to decouple our economies. We 490 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 11: want to continue when we think we both benefit from 491 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 11: trade and investment, but that it needs to be in 492 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 11: the level playing field. 493 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 2: If that was hard to hear, Ambassador, she's talking about 494 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: not decoupling as we've heard before, but that it needs 495 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 2: to be on a level playing field. And we're hearing 496 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 2: that this administration is carving out space to protect additional 497 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 2: new industries like we've seen with high tech chips for instance, 498 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,239 Speaker 2: And I wonder to what extent you see that in 499 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: fact leading to a decoupling. 500 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 9: Well, there will be some natural decoupling from with countries 501 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 9: all around the world and involving many different sectors, because, 502 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 9: as the pandemic demonstrated, no country wants to be overly 503 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 9: reliant on supplies, whether it's consumer goods, manufactured goods, or 504 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 9: medical supplies from another country, because if there's another pandemic 505 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 9: or even a natural disaster, a huge earthquake or political 506 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 9: upheaval in another country, we don't want, For instance, companies 507 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,719 Speaker 9: in America suddenly cut off from so much of what 508 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 9: they receive from China, which is why you're seeing a 509 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 9: lot of companies, multinational companies, US companies, foreign companies diversifying 510 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 9: their supply chain so that they're not so reliant on China. 511 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 9: So much of what American consumers use every day and 512 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 9: purchase every day in their daily lives comes from China. 513 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 9: Whether it's microwaves, whether it's the tools that they use, 514 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 9: clothes and shoes, barbecue sets, you name it. Much of 515 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 9: that comes from China. So that creates jobs for the 516 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 9: Chinese people. At the same time, China depends very much 517 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 9: on American made goods, including our farm goods, our agricultural goods. 518 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 9: China is America's largest agricultural export destination outside of Canada 519 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 9: or outside of North America, and so our farmers depend 520 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 9: on selling their soybeans and their wheat, and their apples 521 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 9: and their cherries to China. Along with Boeing. Boeing's number 522 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 9: one most of Boeing airplanes are sold to carriers around 523 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 9: the world, including China. So our economies are intertwined, and 524 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 9: which is why Secretary of Yellen is saying we don't 525 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 9: want to complete decoupling. But companies, whether Chinese companies or 526 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 9: American companies, are beginning to diversifly diversify their supply chain 527 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 9: to include other parts of the world. 528 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 4: Well. 529 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 7: As we talk about the supply that comes from China. Ambassador, 530 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 7: one of the things we know that the Treasury Secretary 531 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 7: is going to be talking about specifically is industrial over 532 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 7: capacity in the way that can be manipulated in terms 533 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 7: of subsign demand to affect pricing or access to certain 534 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 7: things that China is producing. When she goes and airs 535 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 7: those concerns, how likely is it that China is going 536 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 7: to receive those and say, Okay, yes, you're right, we 537 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 7: will be changing our behavior on that front. Isn't it 538 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 7: to China's advantage to continue that kind of over capacity 539 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 7: in production. 540 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 9: Well, China is trying to jumpstart their economy coming out 541 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 9: of the pandemic by offering subsidies and government incentives for 542 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 9: industrial output. Certainly, they are leading the world in terms 543 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 9: of the manufacturing of electric automobiles and the battery technology 544 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 9: that goes with electric automobiles and buses, and also in 545 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 9: the solar area. But if they do so by stimulating 546 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 9: or having too much capacity, dumping their products into the world, 547 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 9: letting the world with their products and driving prices down, 548 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 9: that's going to actually destabilize the economies and sectors in 549 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 9: many other countries, including here in the United States. With 550 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 9: some of the Infrastructure and Inflation Reduction Act incentives to 551 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 9: bring manufacturing back to America, especially in the clean energy area. 552 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 9: That will disrupt and undercut many of the efforts that 553 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 9: America and other countries have embarked upon, which will lead 554 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 9: to perhaps retaliatory measures against Chinese companies or dumping, unfair subsidies, etc. 555 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 5: Etc. 556 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 9: And therefore that will upset the world trade relationship and 557 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 9: they cause problems for China itself. So I think the 558 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 9: message from Secretary Yellen is, yes, you want to be 559 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 9: the world's leading supplier of electric automobiles and battery technology 560 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 9: and solar equipment, but you have to do it on 561 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 9: a level playing field, and I think that's the key 562 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 9: message there. Otherwise there will be repercussions not just by 563 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 9: the United States, but by other countries around the world, 564 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 9: and that can also in the long term hurt China. 565 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: Spending time here on Bloomberg TV and Radio with Gary Locke, 566 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 2: the former US Ambassador to China, we want to let 567 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: our audience know that we've just received word from the 568 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 2: White House that President Biden's meeting with Benjamin Nettan Yahoo 569 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: has come to a close. Ambassador, I know it's not 570 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: what you're here to talk about today, but in our 571 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 2: last moment. And I don't want to set you up 572 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 2: to cut you off here, but what is China think 573 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: about America's involvement in the Middle East. 574 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 9: Well, China is watching very carefully to see how the 575 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 9: United States responds, along with how the United States responds 576 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 9: to Russia's invasion and military action in the Ukraine, and 577 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 9: what the West does. Does the West really back up 578 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 9: its allies, will it live up to its word of guarantee, 579 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 9: because otherwise there are many countries in the South Pacific, 580 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 9: in the Pacific Reas where the United States has pledged 581 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 9: protection and defense, and. 582 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: Beijing is watching. Ambassador, Thank you, I wish we had 583 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: more time with you. Come back and talk to us again. 584 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 2: Gary Locke of course, as well the former governor of Washington, 585 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 2: former US Secretary of Commerce. I'm Joe Matthew with Kaylee 586 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: Lines in Washington. This is Bloomberg. 587 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 588 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on AMO car Play 589 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: and then roud Otto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen 590 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us 591 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: live on YouTube. 592 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 7: Welcome back to Balance and Power on Bloomberg TV and 593 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 7: Radio and Joe. The fact that it is Thursday puts 594 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 7: us now three days out since the death of seven 595 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 7: humanitarian aid workers working for World Central Kitchen in Gaza, 596 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 7: killed by Israeli strikes, and just a day so we're 597 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 7: two days out now from a primary in which voters 598 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 7: expressed their displeasure protest voted against President Biden in a 599 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 7: number of states, chosing uncommitted or uninstructed, as the case 600 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 7: may be, because they are dissatisfied with the way that 601 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 7: he has handled this conflict and perhaps his relationship with 602 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 7: the Israeli government. And of course, speaking of the Israeli government, 603 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 7: the President was just speaking with the Prime Minister Benjamin 604 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 7: net Nyahu, and sources the White House say that call 605 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 7: has now wrapped up. 606 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 3: We just don't know what exactly was said. 607 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: It's probably going to take him in it for us 608 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 2: to figure that out. But the political stakes are not 609 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: new for this president. And now that we're hearing from 610 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 2: Biden allies, from members of the Obama administration all criticizing 611 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: the policy that this administration has taken, it does make 612 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: you wonder what happens from here. If this is an 613 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: inflection point, what does it lead to? So we assemble 614 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 2: our panel. Genie Shanzana was with this Democratic analyst and 615 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Politics contributor today, joined by Chape and Fay, Republican 616 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 2: strategist at Actum. Great to have you both back with us, Genie. 617 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: Joe Biden has an opportunity here with this meeting. How 618 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 2: does he use it to leverage this to his advantage? 619 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean I think we got a preview of 620 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 10: that last night with Austin call with the Israeli Defense minister. 621 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 10: It was apparently heated. I think Biden is going to 622 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 10: say exactly the same thing, outrage at what happened, need 623 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 10: to investigate, need to protect rather aid workers and civilians, 624 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 10: need to wait to go into rafa. Politically here, I 625 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 10: think the White House is thinking this readout will show 626 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 10: how angry Joe Biden is by what has happened and 627 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 10: how he is expressing that to the Prime minister. I'm 628 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 10: not sure it is going to be effective though, and 629 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 10: I worry about a very very mixed message that Joe 630 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 10: Biden is sending, and I don't think it is helping 631 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 10: him politically at home. 632 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 7: Well, we did just get a statement from the White House. Officially, 633 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 7: it just says President Biden spoke with Prime Minister Benjamin 634 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 7: Netanyahu of Israel today to discuss the latest developments in 635 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 7: Israel and Gaza. A readout of the call will be 636 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 7: issued soon, so of course we'll provide you the details 637 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 7: when we have them. That statement in and of itself 638 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 7: doesn't really hint it much that went on in this conversation. 639 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 7: But when we talk about the political difficulty of this 640 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 7: for Biden, knowing that many in the Democratic Party chapin 641 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 7: are unhappy with his handling of it, it's worth noting 642 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 7: that we are starting to see really a divide in 643 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 7: which Republicans are incredibly pro Israel, not to say that 644 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 7: President Biden is not, but have been much more vocal 645 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 7: about it, critical of potentially any criticisms that the Biden 646 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 7: administration is providing to Israel. Could that also play in 647 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 7: politically to some of these more vulnerable Republicans in places 648 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 7: like New York and districts that Biden won. Could the 649 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 7: Israel policy be weighing on them as well, just as 650 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 7: we're seeing it weigh on the incumbent president. 651 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 4: It could. And while you know, I can't speak for 652 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 4: every district around the country. There are certain marginal districts 653 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 4: here in New York where there are very high Jewish 654 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:54,239 Speaker 4: populations and also very high Araba Muslim populations, so it 655 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 4: could cut both ways. I think there are probably larger 656 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 4: Jewish populations the way Regishi team has worked out in 657 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 4: some of these districts, uh, you know, particularly on Long 658 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 4: Island I'm thinking about. So it certainly could have an effect. 659 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 4: And and while I did say earlier, it it it 660 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 4: doesn't cleanly divide on partisan lines. You're you're, you're right. 661 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 4: Support for Israel in general has always been you know, 662 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 4: uh more Republican issue, if you will, than Democrats, you know. 663 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 4: And you know what what I'd like to say about 664 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 4: this meeting is, I don't know why we're holding Israel 665 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 4: to a standard higher than we hold ourselves and the 666 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 4: rest of the world. Right, it was an absolute tragedy 667 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 4: what happened, But I think it's important to remember that 668 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 4: every tragedy that happened subsequent to October seventh, uh is 669 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 4: because of October seventh, Right, And we've heard people talk about, 670 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 4: you know, Israel's reaction and what you know, the president 671 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 4: wants them to do. They have already admitted the mistake, 672 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 4: they have apologized, they have said they would do with 673 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 4: their own inquiry, and they've already said that they're going 674 00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 4: to adjust tactics. I don't even remember when a mayor 675 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 4: has said that. 676 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: Right. 677 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 4: Meanwhile, there are still hostages in Gaza, children, women, women 678 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 4: being sexually assaulted, senior citizens. This was a terrorist attack 679 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 4: where people parachuted in and killed and raped kids having 680 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 4: fun at a rave. So I think it's important to 681 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 4: remember that. And you know, the question of why are 682 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 4: we holding Israel to a higher standard, I think we 683 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 4: know the answer, but I'm you know, I very strongly 684 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 4: believe that Israel has a right to defend itself just 685 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 4: like everyone does. And one side is following, you know, 686 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 4: trying to follow the rules of engagement in Geneva conventions, 687 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 4: and the other side is allowed to do whatever it wants, 688 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 4: and Israel gets criticized for it. So sorry for the 689 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 4: little aside, but I think it's important to have that 690 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 4: voice here in this conversation. 691 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 2: I'm glad you said that, Chapin, and let's talk about 692 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 2: it a little bit more, Genie. Is the US holding 693 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 2: Israel to a higher standard when it continues to supply 694 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 2: two thousand pound bombs. 695 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 10: Yeah, this is the problem for Joe Biden right, just politically, 696 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 10: is that we are hearing on the ground a mixed 697 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 10: message from Joe Biden, and it is a problem for 698 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 10: him because what is he saying. On the one hand, 699 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 10: he is saying by one side of his mouth that 700 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 10: Joe Biden, Chris Coons, Van holland others are telling him 701 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 10: to stop the war. He has yet to take on 702 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 10: Jose Andre's you know, suggestion that Israel deliberately targeted these 703 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 10: seven aid workers. And on the other hand, to your point, 704 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 10: we are still supplying arms. So just politically speaking at home, 705 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 10: that message is ringing very hollow. We had a primary 706 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 10: in New York yesterday. I just talked to a few people. 707 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 10: We don't have an uncommitted option on our line, but 708 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 10: you can leave a blank ballot, and many people I've 709 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 10: talked to did. I'm not sure it's anywhere near what 710 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 10: we saw in Wisconsin. But this is the political problem 711 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 10: for Joe Biden. So even setting A's side the question 712 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 10: of whether we are holding Israel to a higher he 713 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 10: can't have it both ways, and this is going to 714 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 10: be a problem for him at. 715 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 7: Home well, and we know shape in the net and 716 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 7: Yaho also is facing some difficulty at home. It was 717 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 7: just this past weekend where there were thousands of protesters 718 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 7: on the streets calling for new elections, and now Benny 719 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 7: Ganz in the Israeli government is also calling for an 720 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 7: early election in September. We tend to just talk about 721 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 7: Israel here and what perhaps Israel is seen doing wrong 722 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 7: or not doing wrong in defending itself. Is this Israel 723 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 7: or should we really be talking about net and Yahou 724 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 7: and this this specific Israeli government. 725 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 4: Well, that is a phenomenal point, and I wish I 726 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 4: had brought it up earlier. You're one hundred percent right. 727 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 4: This is not about Palestinian people and Israeli people. This 728 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 4: is about their two governments or whatever you want to 729 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 4: call Hamas. Right, that's what this is about. Those are 730 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 4: the two actors making these decisions. So I do think, 731 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 4: you know, while I am a firm you know, support 732 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 4: of Israel's right to defend itself, I am all for protests. 733 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 4: I'm all for people voicing their opinions. And if niitt 734 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 4: and I who loses, you know, that's for the Israeli 735 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,879 Speaker 4: people to decide. In their elections and the way they're 736 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 4: you know, parliamentary system works. You know, if they lose 737 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 4: confidence and there's a new election, you know, so be it. 738 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 4: That's politics, that's democracy, and that's the way it's supposed 739 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 4: to work. Right. And if a you know, a pro 740 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 4: ceasefire politician is elected to lead them, then that's what 741 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 4: they've decided. And you know, all support that decision too, right, 742 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 4: because it's you know, it's a democratically elected government. So 743 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 4: I do think we do need to distinguish, right, you know, 744 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 4: I just sort of went in on defense of Israel. 745 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,760 Speaker 4: But that's not to say the Palistinian people are not suffering. 746 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 4: They are certainly suffering under Hamas. And it's really Hamas 747 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 4: is really where the eye are should be going. And 748 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 4: I think one of the problems in this country, especially 749 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 4: on the protests, is it's the Jewish people or Israeli 750 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,280 Speaker 4: people versus you know, palistin and people and their supporters. 751 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 4: And that's really not what it should be about. It 752 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 4: should be about the leadership and and and their government. 753 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 4: And that happens too, right. People disparage Trump supporters, and 754 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 4: people disparage Biden supporters. It really shouldn't be like that. 755 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 4: But that's where sort of the world is headed. 756 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 2: A great conversation today with our panel Chapin Fay and 757 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 2: Genie Shanzano GENI following this call, progressive Democrats on Capitol 758 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 2: Hill are going to listen very closely and they're going 759 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 2: to parse the words of the readout that is forthcoming 760 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 2: from the White House. Should conditions be attached to future 761 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 2: weapons shipments to Israel? 762 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,439 Speaker 10: That's what I think we are hearing more and more. 763 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 10: I mentioned Chris van Holland as an example of that. 764 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,839 Speaker 10: I think things are getting shaky in the Democratic side 765 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 10: and the Senate on this issue. There is widespread concern, 766 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 10: and so I do think that is what we are 767 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 10: going to be hearing as next week rolls around, because again, 768 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 10: you are hearing this on the ground, and I know 769 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 10: we like to describe it as sort of a progressive 770 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 10: left is where this is started from, and that is true, 771 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 10: but I can tell you that it is spread like 772 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 10: wildfire through the Democratic base. That's why Joe Biden is 773 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,760 Speaker 10: rightly so concerned about the politics of this and saying 774 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 10: things like the First Lady supports a ceasefire. That is 775 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 10: a message to tell you how he is hearing this. 776 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,280 Speaker 10: But again I think his messaging on this is leaving 777 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 10: him open to some real challenges as we move into 778 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 10: this convention this summer. If we don't see a ceasefire beforehand. 779 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 4: Ultimately he's in an a possible position, you know, selling weapons, 780 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 4: supporting Israel but also trying to get the worst UF. 781 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 4: He's in a possible position. 782 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 7: Wow, Yep, tough, indeed cheap. And Fay and Jeanie Shanzo 783 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 7: our political panel today. Thank you both so much for 784 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 7: joining us political discourse at its best. Joe, It's important 785 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 7: to consider all sides of this issue, but yes, both 786 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 7: saying that President Biden isn't a tough spot here for sure. 787 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast kens 788 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: just live weekdays at noon Eastern on Appo car Play 789 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: and then Rodoo with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You can 790 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 791 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 792 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 7: We have the latest from the White House. 793 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the readout we were waiting for. Kayley 794 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 2: on the meeting between Joe Biden and Benjaminett and Yahoo 795 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 2: I'm kind of amazed to come out this quickly, knowing 796 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,320 Speaker 2: how long it has taken in the past, with meetings 797 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 2: with President she and others for instance. Look, let's cut 798 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 2: to the chase here. This is a longer readout. The 799 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 2: President calling for specific, as I read directly from the 800 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,800 Speaker 2: readout here, specific concrete and measurable steps to address civilian harm, 801 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 2: humanitarian suffering, and the safety of aid workers, remembering, of course, 802 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 2: the killing of those volunteers with World Central Kitchen. It 803 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 2: goes on to write, the President made clear US policy 804 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 2: with respect to Gaza will be determined by our assessment 805 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 2: of Israel's immediate action on these steps. So we've set 806 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 2: up the next chapter here ka, but it has yet 807 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 2: to be written. 808 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,720 Speaker 7: Yeah, and we also understand per this readout that Biden 809 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 7: underscored that an immediate ceasefire is essential to stabilize and 810 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 7: improve the humanitarian situation and protect innocent civilians. President Biden, 811 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 7: it goes on to say, made clear that the United 812 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 7: States strongly supports Israel in the face of threats, including 813 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 7: from Iran and the Israeli Iranians threatening the Israeli people. 814 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 7: So still there expressing support for israel Is even as 815 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 7: we are seeing fascinating directive essentially from the President to 816 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 7: take the steps that the US thinks are necessary in 817 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 7: this moment. So we want to turn now to Hadar Suskan, 818 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 7: and he is Americans for Peace President and CEO. He 819 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 7: also was a sergeant first class in the Israeli Defense Forces. 820 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 7: That are great to have you with us as we're 821 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 7: just understanding what exactly it is President Biden and Benjamin 822 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 7: Nyahu talked about today. Will net Yahoo heed the words 823 00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 7: that Biden spoke to him when he's talking about the 824 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 7: idea that Israel needs to make changes here? Do you 825 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 7: have faith that those changes will happen? 826 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 5: Well, that is the big question, And first of all, 827 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,720 Speaker 5: again thank you both for having me on with you today. 828 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:11,839 Speaker 5: You know, what we've been seeing in this back and 829 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 5: forth between Natanyahu and his government and the Biden administration 830 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 5: for months now is Biden and colleagues speaking out, pushing, 831 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,400 Speaker 5: urging for more restraint, calling for ceasefires, taking various steps 832 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 5: pushing in that direction. And we've seen Nata Yahu and 833 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 5: his government absolutely failed to heed that. And so the 834 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 5: question at the moment is what is that next unwritten 835 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 5: chapter that you were referencing you know, Biden and the 836 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 5: American administration. We have leverage. It is not a theoretical 837 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 5: it's not just asking uh, pretty please, or asking for 838 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 5: a favor. The United States supports Israel not only politically 839 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 5: and theoretically, but concretely. We continue as of yesterday to 840 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 5: send arms to Israel that are being used directly in Gaza. 841 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 5: And so the question is going to become when is 842 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 5: President by And going to move from saying what he 843 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 5: thinks needs to happen to taking the steps that he 844 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 5: can take to make it. 845 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 2: So, I wonder as we talk about this, you actually 846 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,920 Speaker 2: have been there in the IDF, which is known for 847 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 2: its ability to strike with precision. We can talk to 848 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 2: the Iranians about that. After what happened in Damascus this week, 849 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 2: Are we to believe that the IDF is simply incapable 850 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 2: of controlling the outcome of its strikes, or that in 851 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 2: fact net and Yahoo and his military leaders have been indiscriminate. 852 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 2: Can in fact we see a more responsible handling of 853 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 2: the weapons that we're providing. 854 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 5: There's no doubt that you could see that, and what 855 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 5: we've seen are a range of things. So what happened 856 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 5: with the World Central kitchen workers. You know that tragedy 857 00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 5: was three missiles fired, you know, fired at three different vehicles. 858 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 5: Nitinano and the IDF have claimed it was a mistake, 859 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,440 Speaker 5: not an accident, right. They are claiming that a commander 860 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 5: in the field did so without authorization. There's no question 861 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 5: that he did so intentionally because he thought there was 862 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,479 Speaker 5: a Hamas operative there and made that decision. And we've 863 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 5: seen that there was a report in nine to seven 864 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 5: to two magazine about the AI software that they call Lavender, 865 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 5: which has been used to target Hamas operatives, and the 866 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 5: way in which Israel has for this war changed the 867 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 5: rules of engagement, broadening them from what the Israeli military 868 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 5: it self referred to as targeted assassinations of only senior 869 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 5: Hamas leaders to include more junior leaders and include more 870 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,320 Speaker 5: leeway and leniency in what they consider the acceptable number 871 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 5: of civilian casualties to go along with targeting Hamas targets. 872 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 5: So there isn't a question that this is some sort 873 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 5: of accident or something out of their control that's happened 874 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 5: that they just don't have the capacity. This is a 875 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 5: political policy decision about how to you know, how to 876 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,359 Speaker 5: make the rules and take the actions of this war, 877 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 5: and it rests with Nitaanna. 878 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 7: Well, when you talk about the calculation of just how 879 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,760 Speaker 7: many civilians they're willing to see die if it helps 880 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 7: them accomplish their objectives, it raises the question of RAFA 881 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:27,959 Speaker 7: when we have heard from that Yahoo that they plan 882 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 7: for the Israeli army to move more than a million 883 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,680 Speaker 7: Palestinians who have sought refuge in that city in southern 884 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,720 Speaker 7: Gaza out get them made before going in to attack 885 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,360 Speaker 7: the remaining Hamas battalions. There is that credible. Do you 886 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 7: really believe the IDF can do that or are they 887 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 7: going to do so knowing that there's a certain amount 888 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:46,760 Speaker 7: of losses that they're willing to tolerate. 889 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 5: Well, it's very hard to imagine that they can do 890 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 5: so in any way that we in the United States 891 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 5: or most of the world would consider acceptable. And I 892 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,439 Speaker 5: will say, by the way, you know you talked about 893 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,840 Speaker 5: the IDF, The IDF is the arm they are the 894 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,359 Speaker 5: implementers of this. These are all political decisions again rest 895 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 5: with Nintayaho, rest with the government. And you know, I 896 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 5: think it's very hard to imagine where and how they 897 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 5: could move those people. Nano has of course not been 898 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,480 Speaker 5: clear and he's intentionally not been clear about where they're 899 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 5: going to move those people. There are people in his government, 900 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 5: people like Smotridge and Ben Goverro, who are calling for 901 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,280 Speaker 5: those people to be moved to the Sinai to Egypt, which, again, 902 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 5: moving people out of an occupied territory forcefully is a 903 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 5: war crime. Obviously, going through and indiscriminately bombing them is 904 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,000 Speaker 5: a war crime as well. So it's very hard to 905 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 5: imagine any way in which Israel could initiate a large 906 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 5: scale invasion of Rapach that would not be disastrous. Frankly, 907 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:51,719 Speaker 5: what about. 908 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 2: Cease fire talks? Should I even be asking you about 909 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 2: that right now? 910 00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 5: Look, you should because we need to get there. We 911 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,360 Speaker 5: have to get to that. This war has gone on 912 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 5: longer than it should have in the first place. If 913 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 5: you look at polling among the Israeli public, remarks from 914 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,920 Speaker 5: most Israeli political leaders, people there believe very deeply, and 915 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,759 Speaker 5: I share that belief that Prime Minister in Nataannahu is 916 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:23,360 Speaker 5: continuing this war for his personal purposes, for his political viability, 917 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 5: for the continuation of his government. He's announced that, yes, 918 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 5: of course, there will be investigations into what happened on 919 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 5: October seventh, into the response of the military, the response 920 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 5: of the government. But he keeps claiming that none of 921 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 5: that can happen during wartime, of course, so we have 922 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,839 Speaker 5: to wait until after the war to do that. And 923 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 5: everyone is waiting for after the war. They're waiting for 924 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,239 Speaker 5: that for elections, they're waiting for that for accountability, and 925 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,359 Speaker 5: so he has every incentive in the world to keep 926 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:52,319 Speaker 5: this going, even when his stated war aims are clearly unachievable. 927 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 5: The idea that one can militarily eliminate Hamas is not 928 00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,200 Speaker 5: based in reality. Whatever damage could possibly be done, it 929 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 5: has been done to their military capacity, has happened in 930 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 5: six months of intense bombing, in six months of intense invasions. 931 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 5: It is certainly not giving Israel any greater security right 932 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,840 Speaker 5: now to continue this. And look, the vast majority of 933 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,880 Speaker 5: people in Israel, and I think many people here you 934 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 5: believe that a military response, unfortunately was necessary following Hamas's 935 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,400 Speaker 5: horrific attacks on October seventh. Hamas cannot be allowed to 936 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,880 Speaker 5: do that again. Israel has not only the right, but 937 00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,760 Speaker 5: the fundamental responsibility of any government is to protect its people, 938 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,080 Speaker 5: and so they should be doing that. But they failed 939 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,120 Speaker 5: in that responsibility on October seventh, and they continue to 940 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:43,279 Speaker 5: fail by prosecuting a war that is not based in 941 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 5: protecting the security of its people. It's based in the 942 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,920 Speaker 5: ongoing political survival of Nitaenyahu. 943 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 7: Well to that exact point, had Aar And you make 944 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 7: up an excellent point about how you can take out 945 00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 7: the military capacity of AMAS, But how do you defeat 946 00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 7: an ideology in and of self if this is a 947 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,919 Speaker 7: designated terrorist organization by many countries. But to the point 948 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,920 Speaker 7: about the kind of political calculation here for NETANYAHUO. We 949 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 7: have seen just in the last twenty four hours Beni 950 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,319 Speaker 7: Gantz calling for early elections in September, we saw the 951 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,919 Speaker 7: thousands of protesters taking the streets to call for the same, 952 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,480 Speaker 7: or just days ago over this past weekend, How should 953 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 7: we be thinking about how net NYAHUU is likely to 954 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,840 Speaker 7: respond to those kind of domestic pressures that does that 955 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 7: only double make him double down more rather than listening 956 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 7: perhaps to the voices of those dissenters. 957 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 5: But you know, those protests started last year, of course, 958 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,600 Speaker 5: before the war with the judicial or four right, and 959 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:41,840 Speaker 5: there were hundreds of thousands of people out on the streets. 960 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 5: They were stopped by the war, mostly because people were 961 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,200 Speaker 5: in the war, they were in reserve duty. It was 962 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 5: also impossible to gather safely in large numbers. They've come back. 963 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,839 Speaker 5: The numbers have not quite reached the pre October levels yet, 964 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,440 Speaker 5: but they're getting there, and the intensity is frankly much 965 00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,760 Speaker 5: higher because now you have dual movements of people calling 966 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 5: for the government to prioritize the release of the hostages, 967 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 5: which many many many people feel they have not done, 968 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,239 Speaker 5: and people calling for new elections, and a group that 969 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,120 Speaker 5: is smaller but growing also calling for the end of 970 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,360 Speaker 5: the war. And so those are very important the challenges. 971 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 5: Even if you had a million people two million people 972 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,640 Speaker 5: out in the streets, the only way to bring down 973 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:25,279 Speaker 5: the government literally technically before its term is up is 974 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 5: for a vote of no confidence by those in the government. 975 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,880 Speaker 5: So Gance and Eisenkotd his colleague, personally, I believe they 976 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 5: shouldn't be in this government anymore. They went in under 977 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,239 Speaker 5: a national unity idea saying we have to help, we 978 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,560 Speaker 5: want to impact how this war is being waged. I 979 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,239 Speaker 5: don't know what they think, but I certainly don't think 980 00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,480 Speaker 5: they've had a lot of impact on that I think 981 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,799 Speaker 5: they should leave the government. That's not sufficient to bring 982 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,520 Speaker 5: it down. They would still have sixty four members. And 983 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,640 Speaker 5: the challenges that those members in the government know that 984 00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,600 Speaker 5: the likelihood is they're going to get wiped out in 985 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,239 Speaker 5: the next election. They're not going to be in the 986 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,799 Speaker 5: next government, So there's a disincentive for them to go 987 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,920 Speaker 5: to new elections, not only Nitayahu but all of his partners. 988 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,719 Speaker 5: But there are a variety of forces, some related to 989 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 5: the war, some related to the issue of the draft 990 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,400 Speaker 5: of the ultra Orthodox who are currently exempt from military service, 991 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,000 Speaker 5: that have the potential to crack this government. And so 992 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,360 Speaker 5: the public pressure is very important. The international pressure is 993 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,000 Speaker 5: even more important. People in Israel are very finely attuned 994 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,439 Speaker 5: to what President Biden is saying, what Senator Schumer said, 995 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,520 Speaker 5: what other American political leaders here have had to say, 996 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:37,400 Speaker 5: and they understand that Nitayahu has done something or no 997 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,080 Speaker 5: Israeli leader has ever done before, which is really truly 998 00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:45,360 Speaker 5: deeply lose the confidence of American political leadership, and that's 999 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,720 Speaker 5: very damaging for him. 1000 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:49,520 Speaker 2: And are we were looking forward to talking with you. 1001 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:54,239 Speaker 2: He's the CEO of Americans for Peace, former Sergeant first 1002 00:52:54,239 --> 00:53:00,439 Speaker 2: class than the idea of the Darsuskan. Many thanks thanks 1003 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 2: for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure 1004 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,560 Speaker 2: to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, or 1005 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,279 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find us 1006 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,400 Speaker 2: live every weekday from Washington, d C. At noontime Eastern 1007 00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:14,080 Speaker 2: at Bloomberg dot com.