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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three, eighteen, episode

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Speaker 1: two of Dear Danly's I Guys Day Show My Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: This is a podcast where we take a deep dive

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Speaker 1: into America's share consciousness. I just dabbed for Dannel Jack,

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Speaker 1: just dab dab because I accidentally dabbed before we start recording.

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Speaker 1: And I just think it's still cool when you do that.

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Speaker 1: Hell in your forties.

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Speaker 2: It's Tuesday, December nineteenth, twenty twenty three, less than a

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Speaker 2: week away from Christmas?

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Speaker 3: Oh right?

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Speaker 1: Ever heard of it? What ever heard of it anymore? America?

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Speaker 1: Or you too busy anyways? Trying to channel my inner

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Speaker 1: Fox News hosts, it's not going well. My name's Jack O'Brien,

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Speaker 1: aka do your nuts? Tang lo? Are they huge m

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Speaker 1: made of bone?

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Speaker 2: Where they found in Oxfordshire in the gravel en limestone?

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Speaker 1: Is your scroed them like go boulder with a chef

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Speaker 1: like a light pole? Do you're not hang low? That

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Speaker 1: is curty christy Amagucci Mane. He wanted me to do

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Speaker 1: it as chain hang low by jibs, but I'm more

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Speaker 1: familiar with your ears hang low by like boy scouts.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but Anyways, it's a reference to the

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Speaker 1: British doctor who fat saw the first dinosaur bone before

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Speaker 1: people knew about dinosaurs and said, that is no giant femur,

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Speaker 1: that is, in fact a giant's scrotum, And.

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Speaker 3: Well, here we are.

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Speaker 1: The rest is history. I'm thrilled to be joined in

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Speaker 1: my second seat by a very talented producer, musician, streamer,

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Speaker 1: esports commentator, the original editor of this show. He's constantly

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Speaker 1: streaming everything everywhere because he is that bitch on Twitch.

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Speaker 1: It's DJ Daniel good Man.

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Speaker 3: Aka soon to be NYC Daniel. Right, I'm leaving this

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Speaker 3: mortal coil of Los Angeles and putting on my most

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Speaker 3: comfortable down jacket and braving the cold, bitter winds of

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Speaker 3: New York City. Yeah, getting my tims?

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Speaker 1: You figure, are you like lacing them up to like

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Speaker 1: three loops below and then just having the tongue hang out?

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Speaker 3: What do we three loops tongue out? I'm actually putting

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Speaker 3: times on top of another pair of times. I'm trying

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Speaker 3: to as much as possible. I brought three Yankee fitteds wow,

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Speaker 3: slightly different sizees, so those two I can were on

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Speaker 3: top of each other. Yeah, I'm ready I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: work into calling the weather brick. I understand that is

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Speaker 3: the language, so you know, working on it.

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Speaker 1: The weather is brick.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's brickout. That's when it's cold for all you.

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Speaker 3: Because living in New.

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Speaker 4: York City for a very long time, I've never heard that.

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Speaker 3: There you go, Yes, it is. It is slang that

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Speaker 3: the youths are using, my understanding.

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Speaker 1: At least Daniel as his ear to the to the

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Speaker 1: high school playground.

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Speaker 3: Now it's a thousand feet away, So yeah, what.

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Speaker 1: Is that voice? That voice is someone we're thrilled to

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Speaker 1: be joined in in our third seat. A prolific author

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Speaker 1: of fantasy and sci fi novels and nonfiction you've seen

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Speaker 1: on the Discovery Channel series Contact. His non fiction book,

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Speaker 1: The Bronze Lie is about the myth of the Spartan

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Speaker 1: warrior and why it's so popular with everyone but specifically

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Speaker 1: white supremacist. Also why it's completely full of to quote him,

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Speaker 1: so many holes that could drain pasta I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that's a direct quote, but it's like a analogy

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Speaker 1: he used that I loved. Please welcome Mike.

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Speaker 4: Co The weather here is absolutely brick.

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Speaker 1: Oh shit, sorry to hear that. Mike, what.

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Speaker 4: We invited. I think, like, you know, you don't need

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Speaker 4: me to price crack. I think you probably hear that enough.

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Speaker 1: So oh man, thanks, No, yeah, not not anymore actually

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But uh, I've been thinking about

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Speaker 1: greeting all our expert guests with that. How how was

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Speaker 1: that for you? Good?

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Speaker 4: Pretty good? Yeact when I lived in DC, they came

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Speaker 4: to I don't remember, they came to a bar. They

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Speaker 4: were doing a tour.

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Speaker 1: The guys from that ad.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, And I think that's so amazing. Is imagine

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Speaker 4: that making millions of dollars for that's what you're doing.

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Speaker 4: You walk in a room and you go, what the.

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Speaker 1: I mean, It's not not that hard for me to imagine.

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Speaker 1: To be honest with you, all right, Mike, we are

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Speaker 1: going to get into the content of the Bronze Lie

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Speaker 1: in a moment, but before we do that, we do

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Speaker 1: like to get to know our guests a little bit

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Speaker 1: better and ask them what is something from your search

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Speaker 1: history that is revealing about who you are?

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Speaker 4: For me, most recently, it would be the email addresses

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Speaker 4: for the staff for my congressmen, because if you google

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Speaker 4: Mike pull Michael with the why of course, NPR one

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Speaker 4: a you will bring up me talking on National Public

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Speaker 4: Radio on the crisis and the volunteer fire service something

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Speaker 4: like seventy percent of firefighting in this country. And you

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Speaker 4: don't notice this in La Right, you're in a big city.

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Speaker 4: You see paid firefighters. That's not how it is in

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Speaker 4: most of the country. Most of the countries jack wagons

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Speaker 4: like me who are doing our jobs and then a

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Speaker 4: pager goes off and maybe we can go, and maybe

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Speaker 4: we can't. And with climate change coming on and people

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Speaker 4: not volunteering anymore, it's becoming a real problem and it's

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Speaker 4: become a real like cause for me. And I'm trying

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Speaker 4: to get I wrote a piece about it, the Slade,

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Speaker 4: I went on NPR, and I'm trying to get Congress

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Speaker 4: interested in it.

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Speaker 1: Nice. Oh yeah, what you said, something's coming on. I

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Speaker 1: don't know climage. Is that like a weather front or

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Speaker 1: something miliar?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, just you know, it's I don't know if you

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Speaker 4: guys have noticed, it's it's a little hotter, a.

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Speaker 1: Little yeah, you know the way.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you wouldn't you wouldn't know about that. In California,

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Speaker 4: there's no fun.

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Speaker 1: We're good out here. Things things are cool, that has

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with why Daniel is leaving California.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure nothing nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 1: That's so what would you what would a better supposed

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Speaker 1: to be. Would it be too that they were not

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Speaker 1: to volunteer, that there was a budget to fund firefighting?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and this does not make me popular because a

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Speaker 4: lot of volunteer fire firefighters are militantly proud. When you

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Speaker 4: listen to that MPR show, you'll hear the other two

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Speaker 4: guys who are around there are just like, I do not

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Speaker 4: want to be paid. And I'm like, I get that

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Speaker 4: you don't want to be paid, but unless we have

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Speaker 4: a national paid fire service, maybe not tomorrow, but five

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Speaker 4: ten years, the house that burns going to be your own, Like,

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Speaker 4: it's going to be a problem. And it's it's just

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Speaker 4: getting worse and I I'm starting to ring the bell

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Speaker 4: on it. It's not cool. And also nothing too is Look,

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Speaker 4: the fire service were tied up pretty tight with the police.

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Speaker 4: So there's a lot of like baggage there, especially with

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Speaker 4: the young people that we need to recruit, right, And

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Speaker 4: so like, I don't I don't have a solution, but

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Speaker 4: the conversation needs to get started. And it's happening in

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Speaker 4: New York State and little but it needs to be

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Speaker 4: happening national. That's what I'm pushing for.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, amen, Amen.

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Speaker 1: So that was something I think that was one of

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Speaker 1: the first climate like horror scenarios that really like popped

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Speaker 1: into my brain and like stuck. There was the idea

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Speaker 1: that it gets hotter, there's more fire like wildfires, there's

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Speaker 1: more wildfires like belching shit into the air, which isn't

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Speaker 1: like the main cause of climate change, but it could.

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Speaker 1: It can't be good for it and help. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't help, especially when you're not doing anything else to

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Speaker 1: address climate change, and then it creates this kind of

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Speaker 1: vicious cycle. Just I'd be curious to hear more from

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Speaker 1: you about just what climate change looks like from inside

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Speaker 1: the world of firefighting.

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Speaker 4: I mean, people think about fires, but I'll give you

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Speaker 4: and I'll give you a perfect example. Right now, there's

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Speaker 4: a massive hurricane hitting in Florida and it's sending unbelievable

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Speaker 4: reins up here. My pager has been going off all day.

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Speaker 4: We have floods, we have wires down, we have car accidents.

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Speaker 4: Nothing's burning right, But you remember the firefires do a

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Speaker 4: lot more and fight fires my pager's going off, Jack,

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Speaker 4: I can't go. I have a job.

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Speaker 1: You're talking to us.

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Speaker 4: Get off work.

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Speaker 1: There's somebody on top of their car about to be

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Speaker 1: swept away, and you're talking to us.

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Speaker 4: Taking a break off rework. I will be able to

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Speaker 4: start answering my pager in the evening and when when

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Speaker 4: those calls start coming in. But also keep this in mind,

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Speaker 4: I train part time firefighting. Like one time, somebody that

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Speaker 4: I can't remember a party or something called it unskilled

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Speaker 4: labor almost knocked this dude out, Like what are you

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Speaker 4: talking about? Like, we have to know everything from time

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Speaker 4: not to running equipment, to binding used to calming people

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Speaker 4: down to building construction of the physics of I mean,

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Speaker 4: there is so much to know. And I'm training on

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Speaker 4: nights and weekends part time. You know, if I was

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Speaker 4: a paid, full time professional and this is the only

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Speaker 4: thing I had to think about, how much better at

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Speaker 4: this job would I be? And this is an important job.

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Speaker 4: I mean, Look, I say in the slave article, most

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Speaker 4: of the time when I screw something up, it's okay.

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Speaker 4: Some of the time when I screw something up, somebody dies,

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Speaker 4: Like that is serious. So and the thing is I

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Speaker 4: think that's so frustrating about it is that like this

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Speaker 4: decline of volunteerism, like I do, I definitely feel like

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Speaker 4: I'm screaming into the clouds or something like nobody cares

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Speaker 4: I talk about this stuff, and we always have to

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Speaker 4: wait until it's a crisis. I mean, did you guys

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Speaker 4: get the Hays from Canada in La You didn't dig?

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Speaker 1: No, we didn't it? Okay from Canada? Calfornia, California.

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Speaker 3: I think some of yeah, some some of San Francisco

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Speaker 3: certainly did.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, daniell I, you were gonna love it. Here

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Speaker 4: you go out man, because it looked like Mars. I

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Speaker 4: am not kid. Yeah, I was in I was in

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Speaker 4: dust storms in a rack and I came out my

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Speaker 4: door and I was like, oh, this looks familiar. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: but and like and like how much of that do

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Speaker 4: we need before before we're like, huh, we might want

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Speaker 4: to take this seriously.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and a lot of that stuff, you know,

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Speaker 1: we we've talked before about how Joe Biden is like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, we need to fund the police more because

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Speaker 1: they're our psychiatrists, they're our you know, and like, list

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Speaker 1: all these jobs that fall to the police because they're

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Speaker 1: not funded publicly. But we've also talked about the idea

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Speaker 1: that like some of the jobs that we currently throw

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Speaker 1: to the police can be done by you know, skilled

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Speaker 1: labor that is does not have a gun. You know.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know. I guess I hadn't really put

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Speaker 1: volunteer firefighters into that category until this conversation. And that's

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Speaker 1: on me, Like, this is.

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Speaker 4: Not something we go around teaching people, which is why

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Speaker 4: I'm looking. You know, I'm very very lucky I have

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Speaker 4: a small public platform. Yeah, I'm able to use that

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Speaker 4: to really drum up an issue that I really care about.

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Speaker 4: But what this is also pointed out is that I'm

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Speaker 4: the kind of person when you invite me to a

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Speaker 4: party and you want to talk about something like, I'm

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Speaker 4: going to ruin it, and you should not invite me

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Speaker 4: because it's going to get dark, it's going to get serious,

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Speaker 4: and by the time I walk out of there, you

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Speaker 4: are going to be so depressed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what we're here for, That's right. Yeah. Similar,

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Speaker 1: I think people expect a certain thing from somebody who

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Speaker 1: works in comedy, and then I'm like, yeah, maybe not always.

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Speaker 1: What is something Mike, do you think is overrated.

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Speaker 4: So overrated is up? We are over rated. I am

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Speaker 4: so sick of our faces and our opinions. I have said,

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Speaker 4: and I say this on that NPR show. The only

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Speaker 4: thing anybody means, no matter what they say on social media,

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Speaker 4: is look at me, Look at me, look at me.

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Speaker 4: And this is a question I have been trying so

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Speaker 4: hard to tangle with because we have a fucking opinion

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Speaker 4: on absolutely everything. Now you will find no more intractable

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Speaker 4: foe of Vladimir Putin than me, and you will find

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Speaker 4: no greater pro Ukrainian partisan. And every time I see

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Speaker 4: someone flying the Ukrainian flag, I want to bring a

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Speaker 4: map of Eastern Europe with the names of the countries

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Speaker 4: blacked out over to them and said, will you please

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Speaker 4: show me Ukraine? And we all know that ninety nine

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Speaker 4: point nine percent of them will not be able to

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Speaker 4: do it. Can you tell me the difference between the

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Speaker 4: dawn and the Zupprosian Gussips. That's really important to who

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Speaker 4: the Ukrainian people are. But you've got a strong opinion

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Speaker 4: on what's wrong and that stuff, because we sell our

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Speaker 4: asses out here right if you if you go viral

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Speaker 4: for lightning.

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Speaker 3: Some of us literally again I said some of us literally,

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Speaker 3: well yeah, selling our asses out here.

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Speaker 1: Sorry interrupt Dan following on only fans, it was a.

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Speaker 3: Terrible joke, but yes, please subscribe my only fans.

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Speaker 4: But the but you go viral for lightning the firefracker

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Speaker 4: in your ass? You know, like your set, you could

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Speaker 4: be those one love guys walking around, you know. So

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Speaker 4: we are so incentivized to commoditize, to sign our name

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Speaker 4: and center ourselves. And I keep thinking about for like

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Speaker 4: what you guys do and for what I do. We

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Speaker 4: do public facing work. We can't not use social media,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of the time we are selling ourselves

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Speaker 4: and in comedy is so personal. I just shot a

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Speaker 4: spot for the History Channel. They didn't just pick me

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Speaker 4: because of my historical expertise, they picked me because of

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Speaker 4: my look, right, So how do you do that? How

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Speaker 4: do you center the work?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 4: What am I doing here? Instead of crossing that line?

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Speaker 4: And to look at me, I'm you know, trying to

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Speaker 4: turn yourself into a brand. And I don't have a

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Speaker 4: solution to that. But that whole culture, which we can

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Speaker 4: all be forgiven for buying into, is what's for dinner?

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Speaker 1: That is the thing.

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Speaker 4: It is the most overrated in the thing I'm most

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Speaker 4: sick of in this world.

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Speaker 1: It's the only thing on the plate. It's the only

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Speaker 1: thing that's for dinner. Yeah, and a lot of respects.

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Speaker 1: It's it's tough. What's something you think is underrated?

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Speaker 4: Underrated is saying I don't know. Underrated is admitting that

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Speaker 4: there is a limit to what you are able to

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Speaker 4: be certain about. And as in a Storian, this is critical.

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Speaker 4: So you will see, hopefully you saw on the Bronze

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Speaker 4: Lie that I present sources and then I go and

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Speaker 4: here's what I think happened based on those sources. And

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Speaker 4: I think like most the Storians that come out there

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Speaker 4: and they go, the spartans were this or you know,

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Speaker 4: this is what happened here, And I'm always sitting here

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Speaker 4: being like, motherfucker, there is no way you could be

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Speaker 4: sure about that based on the deity you have. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and I think a story is don't want to do it,

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Speaker 4: because look, dude, if we keep saying I don't know,

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Speaker 4: what the hell do you need us for? You could

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Speaker 4: do your own research like Alex Jones, you know, like

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Speaker 4: what do you need us for? But the truth is,

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Speaker 4: what is our job? Our job is to be the

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Speaker 4: Walking Cliff news Man. I went ahead and read through

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Speaker 4: Kennedy's and Dawafon and Proditus, and went to museums and

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Speaker 4: read all these boring historical journals so that you don't

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Speaker 4: have to. Now I can come here and explain it

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Speaker 4: to me, give you my opinion, but it is opinion.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: That ability to present expertise and be like, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 4: an expert on this stuff, but man, I don't know everything.

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Speaker 4: I mean, look, Robert mcnabara was an expert on defensive

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Speaker 4: Bard policy and Vietnam didn't work out so well did it?

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Speaker 1: Why What Haven War is an amazing documentary. Yet more

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Speaker 1: and more, I think that that the way you write,

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Speaker 1: the way that people who are kind of forward facing

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Speaker 1: with that caveat of we think, I think people sense

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Speaker 1: the truth in that more than yeah I can. I

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Speaker 1: remember reading historians and it being you can tell that

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Speaker 1: their editor was like, your voice is so authoritative, we

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Speaker 1: love it, and it's like, well, that's speaking authoritatively on

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Speaker 1: something that happened three thousand years ago is probably misleading.

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Speaker 4: Like just to say the least. I had a great

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Speaker 4: quote from my co author and mentor and dear friend

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Speaker 4: Michel doctor Michael Livingston. I really hope folks will check

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Speaker 4: out his work. His last book is as Inc He's

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Speaker 4: a medievalist. He's amazing and he once told me that

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Speaker 4: as in a story, and you have got to be

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Speaker 4: committed to getting it right, not being right, and that

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Speaker 4: is something I have carried with me into the rest

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Speaker 4: of my life. Is one of the most powerful things

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Speaker 4: I've ever heard.

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Speaker 1: Now, this episode is not about first Contact or UFOs,

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Speaker 1: but you were on the Contact documentary and I was

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Speaker 1: going to find a way to shorten this in anyways.

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Speaker 1: But I do think coverage of UFOs and what what's

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Speaker 1: out there and what all the data means is a

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Speaker 1: place where this very thing is somewhat important and missing

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Speaker 1: a lot of the time is like, you know, well

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Speaker 1: do we know?

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Speaker 3: We don't.

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Speaker 1: We actually don't know what all this means. We don't.

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Speaker 1: I think that's what's interesting about it is that it's

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Speaker 1: hard to like find a definitive answer given all the

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Speaker 1: clashing facts and videos and I wouldness testimony that we've seen.

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Speaker 1: What what is your take on that? As a part

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Speaker 1: time historian, how do you think about.

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Speaker 4: The uf you're talking? Yeah, yeah, so, I mean I

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Speaker 4: think that of the most convincing stuff, including the mis

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Speaker 4: Carrier group stuff like it's just not there's no there there,

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Speaker 4: but really they're oh, absolutely, And in fact, look, look,

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Speaker 4: I'll probably Discovery is not going to be thrilled with

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Speaker 4: me for saying this. But one of the things when

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Speaker 4: you do reality TV, they put one minute on for

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Speaker 4: every hour that they shoot, you know, they could make

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Speaker 4: you say anything. And Mike and I went in there,

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Speaker 4: we were like, this is bullshit, this is not true.

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Speaker 4: And we went ahead and there were a couple of

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Speaker 4: things in there that we really were stumped on. If

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Speaker 4: you look at the episode where there was soil that

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Speaker 4: was rejecting water, we were we were like, this is

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Speaker 4: we don't know what this is. But there were a

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Speaker 4: lot of things in there were were like, this is nonsense.

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Speaker 4: And when we watched the show, they were like they

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Speaker 4: cut it, you know, they cut it to sell the

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Speaker 4: story they wanted to sell. Now does that mean that

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Speaker 4: I don't believe in aliens in UFOs, No, absolutely not.

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Speaker 4: That's not a responsible position to take. I certainly would

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Speaker 4: not be shocked at all if we find things in

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Speaker 4: the future. There was an incredible article about poison gas

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Speaker 4: emanations that we just detected and radio signals that cannot

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Speaker 4: be explained. So there's definitely the possibility out there. But

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Speaker 4: in terms of the mystique and swagger that that discovery

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Speaker 4: portrayed in that show, I mean no way. But I'll

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Speaker 4: say this, it's funny because all look, I try to

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Speaker 4: be a serious historian, and all of these fans of

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Speaker 4: my work will coming me and be like, how could

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Speaker 4: you do this? How could you do that ancient alien show?

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Speaker 4: And my answer was, motherfucker, I got twelve million people

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Speaker 4: watching me. One percent of those people go look at

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Speaker 4: my history. I just reached more people than you will

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Speaker 4: ever reach in your entire career. I think that trade

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Speaker 4: off is worth it. Also, TV is a blast. It's

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Speaker 4: the most funny you could do. Is. I love it,

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Speaker 4: And that's why I just did this spot for History Channel.

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Speaker 4: I want to keep doing it. Well gosh, I guess

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Speaker 4: I should warn networks, like, eventually, if you try to

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Speaker 4: make me say bullshit, eventually I'm going to tell the truth.

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Speaker 1: They were just like cutting it. You're like, I think that,

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Speaker 1: like it was just carrier is sense? You think it's sense? Okay,

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Speaker 1: I mean you're not.

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Speaker 4: You're not far off jet.

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Speaker 1: Right. All right, well, we're gonna have to have you

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Speaker 1: back to explain the Kniamtz carrier stuff because that that's

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Speaker 1: one of the ones that I'm like, damn.

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Speaker 4: Let me. Let me give you an example. There's one

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Speaker 4: scene where a you will see a UFO go from

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Speaker 4: a completely stationary position and break off to the left.

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Speaker 4: That is a bead of water of the flour camera lens.

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Speaker 4: Mike and I grow like, it's that's what it is.

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Speaker 4: It's not a UFO. And then there's this other scene

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Speaker 4: where like, by god, it's hovering and it's like, no, dude,

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Speaker 4: the cameras on gimbals and it's rotating so it looks

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Speaker 4: like it's hovering.

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Speaker 1: It's real interesting, interesting. Let's take a quick break and

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Speaker 1: we will come back and talk about the bronze Lie.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back and we're back, and Mike, until

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Speaker 1: reading your book, I hadn't realized how much the Spartan

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Speaker 1: myth is just fucking everywhere. Like I of course remember

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Speaker 1: the movie The three hundred. I recognize that it has

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Speaker 1: been incredibly like has just stuck around and becomes this

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Speaker 1: like myth and this meme or this meme that like

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Speaker 1: Trump riffs on and I definitely at the time was like, man,

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Speaker 1: there's some weird ideas in this fucking movie at the time,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, as you point out, like I hadn't really

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Speaker 1: put it together. Oh yeah, there's so many high school

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Speaker 1: sports mascots, college sports mascots, and it feels like a

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Speaker 1: lot of the most famous names in history are kind

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Speaker 1: of obsessed with this myth. And so you went in

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Speaker 1: started kind of poking at it and questioning whether Spartans

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Speaker 1: are the greatest worri to ever lives, as depicted in

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Speaker 1: three hundred and elsewhere. And when you wrote about that

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Speaker 1: in The Daily Beast in the New Republic, you started

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Speaker 1: getting death threats. So I kind of just wanted to

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Speaker 1: start there because I think that drives home like what

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Speaker 1: what is important here? Like how this how much energy

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Speaker 1: below the surface is riding on this shit? Like who

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Speaker 1: are the types of people who you think are threatening

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Speaker 1: to kill you over this? What are they so mad about?

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Speaker 4: Well, let me let me be clearer, like, I think

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Speaker 4: the types of people who are threatening to kill me

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Speaker 4: with this, I can't prove it. They're probably fourteen year

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Speaker 4: olds like in their basement. I wasn't ten terribly frightened.

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Speaker 4: But I think that first of all, I think that

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Speaker 4: the Spartan myth it isn't just the far right, it's

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Speaker 4: all of us. Our whole conception of what it means

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Speaker 4: to be a man that you endure hardship, that you

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Speaker 4: stoically and without complaint, you know, stand in the gap

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Speaker 4: like that idea comes from the ancient crete concept of erected.

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Speaker 4: It's conveyed us through the Spartan mess. This whole idea

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Speaker 4: of being a strong, silent type, being a man of

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Speaker 4: few words that doesn't exactly use the word Spartan. It's

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Speaker 4: tied to that. So it's not just like the far right,

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Speaker 4: although that was what I sought to come after with

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Speaker 4: that book because it was really bothering, But it really is.

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Speaker 4: It's in the air man like, it's it's how we

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Speaker 4: came up. And I think that's important to recognize. But

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Speaker 4: the best story about this, other than the death threats

434
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 4: this mighty fucking cert image that dude. Wow, he posted

435
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 4: on Twitter to his one million plus followers. Back on

436
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 4: the Twitter, we should be careful, uh, he goes. This

437
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 4: dude is so afraid of the bronze age mindset he's

438
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 4: talking about me that he wrote a whole book about it,

439
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 4: and he tweets a picture of the cover of my

440
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 4: book to his one million followers.

441
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 3: Break thank you, and he's thank you.

442
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 4: Tweeting out the cover of my book to one million people.

443
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 4: And I'm like, if even one percent of them raged

444
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 4: by it, and they did, Jack, it was a very

445
00:23:59,119 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 4: good day for me.

446
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 1: Wow.

447
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 4: So the far rights reaction to it, But what did it?

448
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 4: What does it say? It says that this to them

449
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 4: is a religion, It's an article of faith, right, this

450
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 4: symbol it's so to us, it's what is three hundred movie?

451
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 4: To them, it's the cross Man Like, that's that's serious.

452
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: I think. Yeah. We we end up talking about that

453
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: more and more that as religion has faded in our

454
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: day to day lives in America, like things are replacing

455
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: that that that that's not exactly how we view those things,

456
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: but it comes up when we're talking about the unprecedented

457
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: power of like Taylor Swift, or the myths and the

458
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: Star Wars universe and why people view, you know, a

459
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 1: Star Wars movie with a woman protagonist as like an

460
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: affront to the very core of their identity. That I

461
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: think that's right. I think more and more the stakes

462
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: on these kind of non religious like things we view

463
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: as pop culture are actually like life and death to people,

464
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: and like their entire personas are like shot through with it,

465
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: like down to a spiritual level.

466
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And the Spartan myth plays on this really great

467
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 4: human insecurity. Dude, you are not good enough, you are

468
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 4: too weak, you are not tough, you cry too much,

469
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 4: you're not working hard enough to get after your goals.

470
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 4: Look at these people, Look at these people who could

471
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 4: withstand any privation, who would die rather than surrender. Be

472
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 4: like them, And honestly, that idea of a religious avatar

473
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 4: that's in almost every faith. That's Jesus Christ, that's the

474
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 4: prophet Muhammad, that's the Buddha himself. Right. If you don't

475
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 4: know how to act, just watch these people and act

476
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 4: like them. And the Spartans the same thing.

477
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean there's some pretty straightforward ways for

478
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: like aspects of the Spartan myth that we see in

479
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: three hundred that you kind of go back and debunk,

480
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,479
Speaker 1: Like there's the myth of how they treat children who

481
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: aren't like who aren't like born with a six pack

482
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: and like immediately able to like do twenty twenty pull

483
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: ups when you like hang them over a cliff that

484
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: they like throw them over into the sea. And I

485
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 1: feel I feel like that's a very potent part of

486
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,959
Speaker 1: the myth because it's like, well, they did it, so

487
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: what are you going to do. But at the same time,

488
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: it's also like a profound endorsement of eugenics.

489
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 4: Right, just right, but like just the important thing they

490
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 4: didn't do.

491
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: It, yeah, exactly.

492
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 4: They love their children and they raised them, and there's

493
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 4: all these examples of it. King of guess Allawis the second,

494
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 4: who was one of the most famous warrior kings of Sparta,

495
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 4: was born with a club foot, right, he was limping

496
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 4: like it was. It's just bullshit. It's hot buttered bullshit.

497
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 4: And the thing that's so frustrating is that all it

498
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 4: takes to stick a pin in this balloon is you

499
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 4: read the sources like I'm reading the same ship that's

500
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 4: been available for twenty five hundred years. Where the fuck

501
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 4: is everybody you know? Like you know, all I did

502
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 4: was keep poor, like none of this stuff is the secret,

503
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 4: none of And the thing is people have been talking

504
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 4: about it like I'm certainly not new to this conversation.

505
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 4: I'm just the first person to systematically sit down and

506
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 4: in a pop narrative aimed at regular people, lay it

507
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 4: out in a book. That's all that's not It's not

508
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 4: like I said, it's not rocket scent.

509
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, Trump just started like openly saying in

510
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: campaign speeches that illegal immigrants are poisoning the blood of America.

511
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: This just feels very kind of everywhere, and like it's

512
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: not going away.

513
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 4: Right, And Jack, like, I hear the desperate your voice,

514
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 4: and I feel it too, man, Like I cannot believe

515
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 4: we're back here. And that is part of what I

516
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 4: did with this book, Like this was an act of desperation,

517
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 4: like what can I do? Where can I strike a blow?

518
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: You know?

519
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 4: And this was one of the few places where I

520
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 4: felt I could, I can speak the truth about something

521
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 4: I care.

522
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you did learn the languages, which I was

523
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: gonna do. But then I saw that you did it,

524
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: so I don't I appreciate you.

525
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 4: Doing that, So I'm happy.

526
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that now. So I hadn't

527
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: realized that one of the things that is notable about

528
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: spartans from a historical perspective is that like they didn't

529
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: leave that much or like they were like it's called

530
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: la kana, like the it has the same like worship

531
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: of Spartan's has the same root where it is laconic, right,

532
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: because they weren't like giving a lot of information on

533
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: one of the details that I found particularly interesting is

534
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: like they they seemed to have a sense of branding.

535
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: Like you mentioned this idea that they kept mystery about

536
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: themselves by not fighting the same opponent more than once

537
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: mm hm, which feels wildly and practical like if you're.

538
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 4: Well, But also keep in mind that that is the legend.

539
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: That's the legend, you know.

540
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 4: They did fight the same opponent more than once. In fact,

541
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 4: they're repeated battles against the city State of Thebes, which

542
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 4: modern day is known as Steva. They wound up being

543
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 4: defeated by tactics because the Fievens, I think, had a

544
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 4: really good idea of what they were going to put

545
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 4: into the battlefield.

546
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: So it's always hard to play an opponent the second time,

547
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: as anybody who follows sports would know. But it just

548
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: the idea that they would only fight an opponent once

549
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: like suggests like even the idea that they would like

550
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: put that out there about them, suggests that they're like

551
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: the Harlem Globetrotters of War, that they just like are

552
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: just yeah, we we kind of put on a show.

553
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: We're like a road show. But like you can't, can't

554
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: let you see it more the once.

555
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 4: So I look, and I can't prove this, but if

556
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 4: I had to, if I had to give my educated guests,

557
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 4: I would say that they didn't start that. Man the

558
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 4: Athenian started that. And one of the things I did

559
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 4: in the New Republic piece is showed that, like, we

560
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 4: don't have any writing from Spartans, none, It's all fanboy

561
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 4: stuff from outside Xenophon who was this like huge Spartan

562
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 4: like this dude loved the Spartans and and and the Kennedy's.

563
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 4: It was an enemy of them, and you know they

564
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 4: write this legendary stuff. And I think somewhere along the

565
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 4: way the Spartans looked around and were like, holy shit,

566
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 4: we got something going here. We need to lean into this.

567
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 4: This is working out. I think that's probably what happened.

568
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: Mhm.

569
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

570
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: It feels like throughout it is this fantasy of being

571
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: able to, like you say, at a certain point, like

572
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: people aren't machines, in the book, But it seems to

573
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: be the fantasy of the Spartan myth like at the time,

574
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: and of like fascism in general, like turn humans into

575
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: beautiful war machines, take away the softness, the follibility, the

576
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: inconsistency of humanity. But of course that's a fantasy, because

577
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: that is the human condition, Like all of those things

578
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: are part of the now condition. But it seems like

579
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: the ideal of the fake Spartan society that made its

580
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: way down to us over the decades was both their

581
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: fantasy and our fantasy. So there is like something universal

582
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: and powerful about it, which is what makes it so

583
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: kind of terrifyingly powerful and so terrifying that it's you know,

584
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: being allowed to rise back up because it's it's kind

585
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: of always there. We just had a sense of how

586
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: dangerous and powerful it was for so long, and now

587
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: we're back to a place where it's being allowed to

588
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: just kind of run rampant again across the world.

589
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 4: Well and being marshalled to a specific political end, like

590
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 4: here is this what icons can we use? Right you

591
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 4: know where? You know, look, we as the modern Trump movement,

592
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 4: you know, raising the cross is probably not gonna work

593
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 4: for us here, although he's popularly evangelicals too. I just

594
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 4: do not understand that. But okay, sure so, but we

595
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 4: could pick this up, man, I mean that video. I

596
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 4: don't know if you've seen it. It's incredible. There's a

597
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 4: video with it's three hundred. It's the scene where the

598
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 4: Persian messengers are kicked into that pit and you know this,

599
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 4: and it's Trump's head over like glued on too, and

600
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 4: and Soros and Obama getting kicked around. Man. By the

601
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 4: time I found that video, and this was years ago,

602
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 4: it had been watched five million times. It is amazing

603
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 4: how powerful this stuff is.

604
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course that movie came out in two

605
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: thousand and sixty six, when like Obama was first becoming

606
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: a thing and you know, has gained popularity. And man,

607
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: they love to put Trump's head on the body of

608
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: just like a ripped soldier, don't they.

609
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 4: God. I've been very, very lucky not to see him.

610
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 4: But I am pretty sure Jack, you don't look like that.

611
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: All right, let's uh, let's take a quick break and

612
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: we'll come back and keep busting this myth. We'll be

613
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: right back and we're back. Okay. So this one is

614
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: kind of unrelated. But it's a thing that whenever I

615
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: read about or hear about, like ancient Greek city states

616
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: going to war with one another, I think in my

617
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: mind for most of my life that those are like

618
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: mad of armies of people. But aren't weren't the communities

619
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: like fairly small?

620
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 4: I think it varied. You know, you see figures of

621
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 4: ten thousand thrown around all the time. Certainly the armies

622
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 4: are bigger in some battles and smaller in others. I know,

623
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 4: failings on failings battles and a few hundred I certainly

624
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 4: compared to modern armies, you know, modern professional armies. Yeah,

625
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 4: it's a totally different game in terms of the number

626
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 4: of personnel that can be marshaled, but it does vary.

627
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 4: I mean, we do have battles of tens of thousands,

628
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 4: twenty thousand that we that we see it. It's quite

629
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 4: a few.

630
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's just like the idea of like how many

631
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: people were in Sparta at the time when they were

632
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: at their height, Like just in the society in general.

633
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 4: Here we go, Jack, and I will tell you I

634
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 4: don't know.

635
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: I don't know.

636
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 4: I can find out, but I don't city or for dead,

637
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 4: I have an answer to that question. I have a

638
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 4: military history and focusing on this, but one important aspect

639
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 4: of ancient Greek warfare that I do think is worth

640
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 4: mentioning that people are very confused about, specifically when it

641
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 4: comes to the Spartans, is this idea of professionalism, is

642
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 4: that the average ancient Greek hoplight, which is what we

643
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 4: call the you know, the heavy infantrymen with the bronze

644
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 4: armor and the shield and the spear. That was not

645
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 4: what they did, man. They were farmers, or they were

646
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 4: leather workers or whatever it was they were doing, mostly farmers,

647
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 4: and you would the horn would sound, and you would

648
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 4: run to your ollar shed and you would grab a

649
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 4: rusty old spear and shield your grandfather had hand down,

650
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 4: and you would muster in the square with no training

651
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 4: and almost no command. And the way they thought this

652
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 4: fail anx, this block of dudes with shields overlapping was

653
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 4: designed so that amateurs could pull it off. And that

654
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 4: belief that professional warriors of any kind and certainly not

655
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 4: the Spartan's.

656
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: On Huh So they how did did they just get

657
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: the reputation through sheer tyranny of like, of will of

658
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: people like wanting that to be a real thing or.

659
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 4: No, no, I mean they did one thing different. So

660
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 4: in most ancient Greek city states, you have populations of

661
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 4: young people, right they grow up, they start jockeying for power,

662
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 4: and you send them off to found a colony. Here.

663
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 4: You go, go get a boat, go make a town

664
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 4: over there, do your own thing. And that's how most

665
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 4: Greeks dealt with that, but not the Spartans, and largely

666
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 4: because they weren't on a seafaring people, so they were

667
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 4: the first, or maybe not the first, but among the

668
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 4: first to subjugate their neighbors. And when they subjugated them,

669
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 4: they enslaved them in a cast based slave system, which

670
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 4: is to say, your kids will be born and die

671
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 4: as slaves. And that was almost unique. The Sallians did

672
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 4: it too, And because those slaves were doing all the

673
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 4: agricultural work in the housework, well, the knights of Spartan society,

674
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 4: who we call them oil, they were free. They were

675
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,919
Speaker 4: free to and people think they were free to train

676
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 4: for war, but we have no evidence that they actually

677
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 4: trained for war. We'd see them playing sports. In fact,

678
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 4: Aristotle tells us that the Spartans were tougher than other

679
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 4: Greeks in the field, not because they trained hard, but

680
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 4: because they trained at all. And the reason they were

681
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 4: able to do that was because there were a whole

682
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 4: society of slates and on all their ship form.

683
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: Wow. But just digging back into the film, like it's

684
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: so thoroughly coated with eugenics. Like the the person who

685
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: dooms them is like this hunchback who is mad at

686
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: them because he wants to get to fight, I guess,

687
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: and they're like, or just like join their society, and

688
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: they're like this ain't no. Everyone gets a trophy as society.

689
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: We are Sparta. And then he's like, all right, well

690
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: then I'll cheat and like get you all killed and

691
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: like So that's on top of the baby's all being

692
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: thrown into into the ocean for not being able to

693
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: do push ups.

694
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 4: It's nonsense. It's nonsense.

695
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:53,479
Speaker 1: Yeah.

696
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 4: The whole thing that fialtis, which by the way, is

697
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 4: the modern Greek word for nightmare. That's how fucking famous

698
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 4: this dude is, This dude who ever existed, is that

699
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 4: it's a secret path across Cali Dromo. I have been

700
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 4: to KLi Drome. I found every path over that mountain

701
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 4: in a few days. There's no secrets there. And you're

702
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 4: gonna tell me that Xerxes, the king of accumented Persian,

703
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 4: which was the biggest and most sophisticated empire in the world,

704
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 4: do the basic reconnaissance to find the paths over the mountain.

705
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 4: Of course not, they knew, and they hired local malley

706
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 4: and guides the people who lived there to show them

707
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 4: a way. And that what was considered a betrayal by

708
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 4: the Greeks. Right, these fuckers they went over and worked

709
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 4: for the persons. They could blame them in a lot

710
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 4: of cases. You have a much better life working for

711
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 4: Xerxes than be different from Leona Dasser or any other

712
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 4: Greek king that became this figure of fialities, this deformed

713
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 4: punchback who was who is a betrayer? No, No, this

714
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 4: was good intelligence on the part of the Persians.

715
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a part where you talk about a poet

716
00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: having to emphasize these values because they need these values

717
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: to actually be held up like they need them to

718
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: be more. I remember writing about this back in at

719
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: Cracked that, like a lot of the samurai myth some

720
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: of the misconceptions about samurai are based on like the

721
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: laws of the Samurai that were written because samurai did

722
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: not like. The idea that samurai were super loyal to

723
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 1: their master is based on these laws which are were

724
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,959
Speaker 1: put in place because they were not loyal to their master,

725
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: like they were free. It was like be the equivalent of,

726
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: you know, a modern day professional athlete. Like they're like, no,

727
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to whoever pays me money, because

728
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: that's and so they wrote these laws to be like,

729
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 1: you must be the most loyal And it's like reading

730
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: the high school student handbook and being like, man, those

731
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: high school students in the United States in the seventies

732
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: were incredibly obedient. It turns out it's like, wait, what

733
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: the fuck.

734
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 4: It's like the student the student conduct code. You know,

735
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 4: you should not playgiarize. Wow, man, these people never plagiarize.

736
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it seems like there's some of that happening

737
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: in Sparta as well.

738
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 4: Right, Oh, absolutely, you're exactly right. And to that point

739
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 4: on the Samurai the TV show Showgun is about to

740
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 4: come out, which is a fictionalization of the actual real

741
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 4: life Showgun took a galleys and his conquest of Japan

742
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 4: turns on a betrayal. It turns on switching signs. So

743
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 4: like all of that loyal onto death stuff, I guess

744
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 4: there's some exceptions.

745
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, turns out, but what what are some of

746
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: the values that get emphasized with Spartans that weren't actually

747
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 1: there beyond throwing their children over right?

748
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 4: And I want to be I want to be clear here.

749
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 4: You know. One of the things that kind of bugged

750
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 4: me about this book is I absolutely wrote this book

751
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 4: to deflate this icon for the mic Cernoviches of the

752
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 4: world and for the real far writers. But what's happened

753
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 4: because of the erosion of discourse in this country is

754
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 4: that a lot of people took that book and we're like, yeah,

755
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 4: the Spartans sucked, and like trying to use it to

756
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 4: clobber people. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

757
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 4: The Spartans did not suck. They were humans, right, They

758
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 4: were extraordinary sometimes and they were wame sometimes, like we

759
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 4: all are. And that's the thing I'm driving at. So

760
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 4: when we look at the poetry of Turteos, that's the

761
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 4: poet you're talking about, and the things he extolled us,

762
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 4: Certainly some Spartans were not doing those things. He was

763
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 4: not exhorting them to press to one of the things

764
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 4: the values. Don't get hit in the back right, That

765
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 4: means you're running away. If you're young, don't let the

766
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 4: old people fight. Get out there in front of it

767
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 4: and get up in your enemy's face, put your shield

768
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 4: on his shield, your foot next to his foot, close

769
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 4: enough to kiss him, and do the job. There. These

770
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 4: are the kinds of things that the Spartans are legendary for.

771
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 4: Did they all do it? Hell no, some of them

772
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 4: probably did, And that's important to remember too. And the

773
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 4: poetry is so what makes me crazy is that there's

774
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,879
Speaker 4: so much that's fascinating about the Spartan It's like, look

775
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 4: three hundred Jack, it's about a disaster they lost, you know,

776
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 4: all these friggin nra guys come and take them, you know, like,

777
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 4: come and take their weapons. The great quote of the

778
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 4: autotos Jack Xerxes came and took them. After day he

779
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 4: cut that dude's head off, He took their weapons away,

780
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 4: and he paraded his head on a skin. So that's

781
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 4: the cry of a loser. Why are you shouting that?

782
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 4: Why not talk about real Spartan successes. Why not talk

783
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 4: about the times they really work? Straud in there and

784
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 4: that poetry of Tourteus. I'm so glad you brought it up.

785
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,919
Speaker 4: It's beautiful and it talks about real valor, it talks

786
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 4: about how to be a warrior, and admitting that not

787
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 4: everybody lived up to it doesn't make it any less extraordinary.

788
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 4: And the fact that for most people they will never

789
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 4: even know about Tritastes except listening to you on a

790
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 4: top of their podcast talk about it breaks my heart.

791
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 4: All they know about is just freaking bigoted, shitty movie

792
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 4: which tells us craft story about people who ever existed.

793
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 3: Going back to the movie, you know, three hundred is

794
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 3: not it's by far not the first movie to glorify

795
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 3: soldiers or this kind of training style or fighting in

796
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 3: a way that you know, Ben's history a little bit

797
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 3: or a lot of it, and just portrays this lifestyle

798
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 3: that has you know, been co opted by right wing

799
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 3: people or just in general bad actors as it were.

800
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 3: And what I'm kind of curious about is, I know

801
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 3: you are a real history historian, maybe not a pop

802
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: culture historian, but what do you think is the inflection

803
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 3: point for this kind of narrative that allowed three hundred

804
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 3: to exist? Like before this, we had movies like Gladiator.

805
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 3: We had movies like Braveheart. We had movies now, of course,

806
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 3: not the exact same thing, but these movies that portray warfare,

807
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 3: portray this kind of very like, you know, powerful, strong,

808
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 3: prow warrior fighting for their people, et cetera. What is

809
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 3: the inflection point that allows three hundred to exist? And

810
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 3: why isn't that the thing that people held onto Why

811
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 3: is it spartans these days?

812
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is a really fascinating question, and like, I

813
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 4: don't know that I have an answer for it, but

814
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 4: I do see one positive sign in a pop culture reference,

815
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 4: and it is John Snow fighting. I don't know if

816
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 4: you remember in Game of Thrones that scene with shields

817
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 4: pressing in and all of them being crushed together and

818
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 4: the absolute bloody, futile chaos. The what George rr. Martin

819
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 4: e voked throughout Game of Thrones, both in the books

820
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 4: and in the television shield, the capricious randomness of how

821
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 4: ned Stark was killed, This idea that these great events

822
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 4: and the turnings of them are so chaotic and random,

823
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 4: and that that violence and the unpredictability of it and

824
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 4: what it does to people, that is a change I'm seeing.

825
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 4: I mean, there have been books before, also white on

826
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 4: the Western front. There's that famous poem Delgat to Korum.

827
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 4: As people have been talking before about how truly horrible

828
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 4: war is, and I speak as someone who's been rocketed

829
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 4: and shot at it, and I certainly look, you know,

830
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 4: I went to Iraq a true believer, right Like, I

831
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 4: went there to do something and had a first hand

832
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 4: experience of how futile that was, and how when you

833
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 4: introduce violence as a means of policy and try to

834
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 4: change people with it, how that is completely not going

835
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 4: to do what you want it to do and not useful.

836
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 4: And I do see something in the pop culture that's changing.

837
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 4: And as we live through Gossip, as we live through Ukraine,

838
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 4: as we live through Africa on fire, you know, and

839
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 4: like it looks like the straight of Taiwan might be next.

840
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 4: Right with what China's doing with the Philippines, there is

841
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 4: I feel a shift in the public's tolerance for that myth.

842
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 4: And I see that in the push for a ceasefire

843
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 4: right now and the sickness with Hillary Clinton coming out

844
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 4: there and go look kind of have a suspire ale

845
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 4: mostery group and people being like, all right, well, that's

846
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 4: nice for you. In an air conditioned office. There's people

847
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 4: dying here, how about that? And that is something I

848
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 4: didn't hear wrong, I never heard it, or if I

849
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 4: heard it, I heard it from peacenicks and hippies, and

850
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 4: now I hear it from everybody. So maybe the inflection

851
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 4: point is now, Dan And if so, Man, God, look,

852
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 4: I have spent my entire life either at war or

853
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 4: studying war, and you will not find someone more committed

854
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 4: to endgames like it is just an absolute evil.

855
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 3: Amen.

856
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: Well, Mike, thank you so much for joining us on

857
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: the Daily zeit Geist, for writ in the book, and yeah,

858
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: where can people find you? Follow you all that good stuff?

859
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me. I'm easy.

860
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 4: My name is spelled m y k E c O

861
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 4: l E. So if you go to Mike Coole dot

862
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 4: com spelled that way, you'll pull up my website. I

863
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 4: am using social media. Look, social media, you got to

864
00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 4: use it when you're in public facing work. But it's poison.

865
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 4: I don't care. Oh, Fred's is gonna be better than X.

866
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 4: Threads are gonna be better than X. And here's all

867
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 4: the people I'm gonna block. Threads is not gonna be

868
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 4: better than X because the problem is us and we're

869
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 4: on threads. So you will find me in all of

870
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 4: these places and variations of that name x, Facebook, Threads,

871
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 4: Instagram as Mike Cole, but don't expect me to post much,

872
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 4: and certainly don't expect me to weigh in on political

873
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 4: and social issues about which I know knowledge.

874
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 1: Is there a work of media that you've been enjoying, Yes,

875
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: So I.

876
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 4: Would like to direct people to the Instagram account of

877
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 4: an author named Christian Cameron, and you can find him

878
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 4: at at Christian c h r I s t I

879
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 4: A and Underscore Cameron c A m e r O

880
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:45,959
Speaker 4: and Underscore author.

881
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 3: A U t h O R.

882
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 4: The reason I want you to check him out is

883
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 4: not just for his writing. And he paints toy soldiers

884
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 4: and he's a total nerd, but he is a real reenactor.

885
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 4: He is a guy who gets every stitch of thread,

886
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 4: every scrap of metal and rivet in the armor that

887
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 4: he wears exactly right. And he goes out there and

888
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 4: he fights. And if you want to understand how ancient

889
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 4: medieval people fought, you can read every book in the world,

890
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 4: you can go to every museum in the world, but

891
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 4: until you put on that gear and you get toe

892
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 4: to toe to someone, you will not be able to

893
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 4: ask and answer the critical questions. And he does it,

894
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 4: and he does it right. And if you see those pictures,

895
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 4: you will be looking into the past and it is amazing.

896
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 1: Don you give an example of like one of the

897
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 1: things that you feel like you figure out from the reenactment,

898
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: because you kind of mentioned that in the book and

899
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: that was kind of new to me. I wasn't really

900
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: familiar with yet the idea of using historical reenactments to

901
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 1: actually do research.

902
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 4: Sure, so one of the big questions among ancient warfare

903
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 4: nerds I don't thin anybody else cares about this is

904
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 4: this idea of that when the phalanx clashes clash, did

905
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,399
Speaker 4: they push shield the shield and push against each other

906
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 4: or did they stand off and fence with their spears?

907
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 4: And that actually makes a big difference on how those

908
00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 4: battles were fought. And then you can check that again

909
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 4: it's the written sources and tell if these guys are

910
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 4: full of shit or not. Well, when you get behind

911
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 4: a shield, I have discovered some people disagree with me,

912
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 4: but this has been my experience. Man, I do not

913
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 4: want to be three feet away from me. I want

914
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 4: to be right up there where I can use my

915
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 4: ass and where my face isn't exposed because I'm up close.

916
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 4: Like when you're what happens when you're boxing with someone

917
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,240
Speaker 4: and you feel outmatched, you grapple man. You don't stand

918
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 4: back and get punch in the face. And the point

919
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 4: is these kinds of little questions you can only answer

920
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 4: them by doing them. And for years, professional historian scholars

921
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 4: PhDs they really and they don't do it anymore, but

922
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 4: they used to really look down their nose at nerds

923
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 4: making the armor. Well what do you guys do? And

924
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 4: this is costplay? No, no, no, it is not costplay.

925
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 4: It is history and that account I just give him

926
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 4: Christian Cameron, author, that is the best example of it

927
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 4: I know.

928
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: All right, amazing Daniel, Yes, sir, thank you so much

929
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: for joining. Where can people find you? Follow you? And

930
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 1: what's the work a media you've been enjoying? Honestly you can.

931
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 3: I deactivated Twitter, I'm barely using Instagram anymore, and I

932
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 3: am divorcing myself from social media entirely. So I'd prefer

933
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 3: it if you didn't find me to answer my question.

934
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 3: It's not really a question from earlier. But when you're

935
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 3: talking about being in a public facing kind of area

936
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 3: or a public facing business like we all are, I have,

937
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 3: and I'm very lucky to be in the position that

938
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 3: I am right here. I love working with Jack, I

939
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 3: love working at iHeart, I love making podcasts, and I

940
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 3: found that using my position now to platform people who

941
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 3: would like to use their voices and be out there

942
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 3: is the best use of my work in forward facing media.

943
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,240
Speaker 3: So instead of being like, here's what I think about something,

944
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 3: I'm in the business of here's what this person thinks

945
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 3: about something, and trying to do that as opposed to saying,

946
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,280
Speaker 3: whatever the hell I think, because truly it doesn't matter

947
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,919
Speaker 3: because what I care about is smash Burgers and who

948
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 3: is currently winning Dancing with the Stars even though the

949
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 3: season just ended, so honestly, my opinions are so it

950
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 3: was Soshi Gomez. Did you see the Do you see

951
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 3: the Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness she plays?

952
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 3: I can't I literally can't remember the Marvel superhero's name

953
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 3: because there's so many at this point, I can't remember.

954
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 3: But she was in that and she was great, and

955
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 3: she was really good on Dancing with the Stars, anyway,

956
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 3: that's not the point. A piece of social media or

957
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 3: a piece of media that I have been liking that

958
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 3: is not. That is the new Miyazaki film The Boy

959
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 3: and the Heron. Go see it. Go see a movie,

960
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 3: Go see an animated picture. Go to the movies and

961
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 3: participate in the culture of Japanese animation of Hyo Miyazaki,

962
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 3: an incredible director. Go see the movie. And if you

963
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 3: haven't had yourself a nice meal, go to someone who's

964
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 3: cooking food on the street and go get it. If

965
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 3: you're happened to me in Los Angeles, go to Brothers

966
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 3: Cousins Tacos, my favorite taco stand in Los Angeles, because

967
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 3: I will be deeply missing it when I leave for

968
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,720
Speaker 3: the East Coast. But yeah, other than that, go support

969
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 3: your local business. Go see a movie, and then go

970
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 3: follow Mike there you go, Thank you my pleasure.

971
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore Obrian

972
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: liking things like this tweet from Jesse McLaren, who tweeted

973
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: shout out to the Beach Boys for landing on the

974
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 1: festive lyric Christmas comes this time each year, and then

975
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: Andy Ryan tweeted two elderly English ladies greeting each other

976
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: and it's alo Vera and evening Primrose Oil. Alo Vera

977
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:30,720
Speaker 1: Evening Primrose Oil. I just enjoyed the good, wholesome Twitter fun.

978
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at daily Zeikeeist. We're

979
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: at d Daily Zeikeeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook

980
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: fanpage and a website Daily zeitgeist dot com where we

981
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: post our episodes and our footnote food doors where we

982
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: link off to the information that we talked about in

983
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: today's episode, as well as a song that we think

984
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: you might enjoy. DJ Daniel Goodman is there a song

985
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: that you would recommended people?

986
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 3: There? There always is, and it might be a little

987
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 3: much for some people, But since I rarely get to

988
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 3: come here, I'm going to I'm going to sing a

989
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 3: song of drum and bass that I love so much.

990
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 3: A British group, Chasing Status, just released a new album

991
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 3: called two Rough, Volume one, and one of the songs

992
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 3: on that album, called on the Block, is such a

993
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 3: massive tune. I am just in my car, gritting my teeth,

994
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 3: driving the speed limit, but with my hands tightly gripped

995
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 3: on the steering wheel, just banging my head. So if

996
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 3: you are into something that is going to keep you

997
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 3: up at night, or power you through a long drive,

998
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 3: or get your workout going, whatever it is that you

999
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 3: need something driving to get you going. So listen to

1000
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: Chas and Status' new album Too Rough, Volume one. The

1001
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,439
Speaker 3: song on the Block is a real like ooh, it'll

1002
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 3: get you moving songs. So anyway, that's my recommendation on

1003
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 3: the block with Chasing Status.

1004
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: We will listen to that in the footnotes. The daily

1005
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: es Eite Guys is the production of iHeartRadio. For more

1006
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio ap Apple

1007
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you go to listen to podcasts. That's

1008
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: going to do it for us this morning. We are

1009
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: back this afternoon to tell you what is trending and

1010
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,720
Speaker 1: we will talk to you all then Bye bye