1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 2: Okay, let's get started. 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 3: Off and why are three? 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: Two? 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 3: Good Guy? As President Trump was preparing to take office 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 3: earlier this year and the battle for cyber dominance between 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 3: China and the US was looming large in Tokyo, one 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 3: of the most prestigious global hacking competitions was underway. They're 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 3: on the clock and actually attempting to exploit above him 10 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 3: called pone to Own, The competition has attracted some of 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: the world's best hackers, or, as the industry likes to 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 3: call them, researchers. A hacking competition looks exactly like what 13 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 3: you see in the movies, a group of people crowded 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 3: around a computer, all staring intently at the screen as 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 3: a main hacker types commands furiously on a keyboard. The 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 3: aim of these hacking tournaments is to find weaknesses or 17 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 3: holes in software in real world devices so that companies 18 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 3: can fix them before they're exploited by criminals. For example, 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 3: researchers would be looking for flaws and bugs, say in 20 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 3: Google Chrome or the Apple Watch. Teams that find the 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 3: vulnerabilities successfully win a cash prize and share with the 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 3: tech companies of how they hacked into the systems at 23 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 3: the poone to Own tournament in January. The competition was 24 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 3: sponsored by Tesla and teams had to discover weaknesses in 25 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 3: its wall charger, I. 26 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: Think there's a success. 27 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 3: The best hacking team is crown the Master of pone. 28 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 3: It's a title that the competition organizers began bestowing on 29 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 3: the best hackers in twenty sixteen. That first year, a 30 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 3: China affiliated team won. In twenty seventeen, Chinese hackers were 31 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: Master of pone again, but the year after that, twenty 32 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 3: eight there were no Chinese hackers at poone to Own. 33 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 3: In fact, since then, there have been barely any hackers 34 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 3: from mainland China at any international hackathon anywhere in the world. 35 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 4: In twenty eighteen, Chinese researchers no longer traveled to compete 36 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 4: in international hacking competitions. Anyone who wanted to do so 37 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 4: had to get special permission from the Chinese government. 38 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 3: That's Bloomberg reporter Jimmy Terrabe, who covers national security in Washington, DC. 39 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: Because they did not want. 40 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 1: These folks to go overseas and compete, they created domestic 41 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: hacking competitions to ensure that those vulnerabilities continue to. 42 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 4: Be discovered but remained within China. 43 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 3: The travel and competition restrictions placed on Chinese hackers were 44 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 3: all about building what Jimmy calls a cyber army. 45 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: China really began in earnest to invest in the cyber 46 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: sort of population in its country. It invested in the tech, 47 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: it invested in the talent, and it became a very 48 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: conservative focus for the regime because in the wars to come, 49 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: the cyber army in China is going to be a 50 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: very significant part of its arsenal. 51 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 3: It's a formidable arsenal that China could deploy as tensions 52 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 3: between Washington and Beijing continue to ratchet up on everything 53 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 3: from trade to rearffs to national security. 54 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: It could be something that the Chinese government would leverage. 55 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 5: Everyone knows that. 56 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: They have its capability to play with the water supply 57 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: in America? Would they do that now because of the tariffs? 58 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 3: This is the Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm Wanha. 59 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 3: Every week we take you inside some of the world's 60 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 3: biggest and most powerful economies and the markets, tycoons and 61 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 3: businesses that drive this ever shifting region. Today on the show, 62 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 3: China's hacker army, How are Chinese hacking competitions powering its 63 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 3: growing network of cyber soldiers, and what's at stake for 64 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 3: the US and the rest of the world if their 65 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 3: knowledge stays inside China. It took Chinese hackers a while 66 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 3: to get involved in international hacking competitions like pone to Own, 67 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 3: but once they did, Chinese teams from universities and tech 68 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 3: companies quickly became a force to be reckoned, with the 69 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 3: Chinese committed in. 70 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 5: A way that other teams did not. 71 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: When a Western team would come and enter pone to 72 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 1: Own one of these hacking competitions, their teams were maybe 73 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: three to five, five to seven at best. The Chinese 74 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: was sending twenty to thirty people on each team, and 75 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,679 Speaker 1: they were having people spend an entire year, like months 76 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: and months and months researching all the different. 77 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 4: Contests, all the different challenges. It became a real contest. 78 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 5: Of we're going to show everyone how good. 79 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: We are, and that's exactly what they did. 80 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 3: For a short time, teams from China dominated, but their 81 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 3: achievements abroad soon drew the attention of critical eyes back home. 82 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 3: In twenty seventeen, the founder of Chinese cybersecurity firm Chihu 83 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 3: three sixty Joe hong Yi publicly criticized Chinese participation in 84 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 3: international hackathons. 85 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: The billionaire founder came out and said, I don't think 86 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: that our people should be going and competing in these 87 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: international contests and everyone getting to see the vulnerabilities that 88 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: they discover. We should not be sharing these treasures with 89 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: the rest of the world. These should be staying in 90 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: China for us to use and for only us to 91 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: have that knowledge. 92 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 3: From twenty eighteen on, Chinese teams were effectively forbidden from 93 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 3: participating in any international hackathons. That same year, China launched 94 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 3: its own hacking tournament called the Tanfood Cup. The prizes 95 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 3: totaled a million dollars, almost double the prize money awarded 96 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 3: in Pune to Own that year. During the Tanfood Cup, participants, 97 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 3: mostly Chinese teams, packed into Apple operating systems, Google phones, 98 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 3: and Microsoft networks. What was different about the Tanfood Cup 99 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 3: was what participants did after those exploits were discovered. Usually 100 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: in international hackathons, the bugs are disclosed to the companies 101 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 3: that make the software or devices so that they can 102 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 3: patch them before criminal hackers exploit them. But in China, 103 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 3: contestants are required to report the vulnerabilities to the government first. 104 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: The Weston Slash International contests are a place where a 105 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: lot of people from many different countries, they're competing, they're 106 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: sharing their learning and reporting their findings in a much 107 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: more open way, and you contrast that with what's happening 108 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: in China. A lot of the times, we don't know 109 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: what vulnerabilities they're investigating, we don't know what the results are, 110 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: we don't know if the vendor has been notified. 111 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 3: And in twenty twenty one, the Chinese government went a 112 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: step further. A vulnerability disclosure regulation that came into effect 113 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 3: required anyone, whether you're researcher at a tech company or 114 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 3: if you discover a flaw during a competition, to report 115 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 3: the findings to the government within forty eight hours. Anyone 116 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: who doesn't comply could be punished and fined. Outside of China, 117 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 3: governments don't force hackers or companies to disclose vulnerabilities, but 118 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: they also don't publicly share any software flaws that their 119 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 3: intelligence agencies have discovered either. It's a practice called vulnerability hoarding, 120 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 3: and experts say organizations like the US National Security Agency 121 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 3: don't reveal their vulnerabilities because it uses them to spy 122 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 3: on other countries and attack their systems. For the longest time, 123 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 3: cybersecurity experts weren't really sure how the Chinese government was 124 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 3: using intel about security flaws until an alleged data leak 125 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 3: in February last year. 126 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 2: Chinese police are investigating hundreds of files leaked online last week. 127 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: They purport to show Beijing's government agencies carrying out large 128 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: scale cyber attacks against foreign governments, companies, and more. 129 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 3: The hundreds of hundreds of internal files from the Shanghai 130 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 3: based cybersecurity company i Soon, which works with Chinese government clients, 131 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 3: were posted on an online platform called GitHub. Chat Logs 132 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: and presentations, which industry experts believe to be authentic, appear 133 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: to reveal successful attacks in twenty twenty one and twenty 134 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 3: twenty two. There was a range of targets from the 135 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 3: UK Foreign Office to the Royal Thai Army and even 136 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 3: NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg. What was also revealing in 137 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: these files was a link between the Chinese hacking competitions 138 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: and these state sponsored cyber attacks. 139 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 5: We saw chats about vulnerability sharing. 140 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: The people who were on these chats talking about infiltrating 141 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: a mail server, trying to get into a system with 142 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: a vulnerability. We saw people saying, hey, when am I 143 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: going to get that vulnerability from Tianfu kop and the 144 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: response was, well, it's gone to the Ministry of Public 145 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: Security or we've seen the. 146 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 5: Ministry of Public Security has an exploit. It's not fully. 147 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: Formed, but see how you go try it out. 148 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 5: So it really kind of revealed a through line. 149 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 3: In March, several employees of i Soon were charged by 150 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: US authorities for carrying out cyber attacks at the behest 151 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: of Chinese intelligence agencies. China denies the allegations. I Soon 152 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 3: hasn't responded to the charges and didn't respond to requests 153 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 3: for comment. With tensions rising between the two superpowers, what 154 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 3: are the risks that China's growing hacker army poses to 155 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 3: the US and the rest of the world, and can 156 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 3: governments do anything about it? That's after the break. Identifying 157 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 3: vulnerabilities in your phone or laptop isn't just important for 158 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 3: improving user experience and keeping your data safe. Bloomberg's Jamie 159 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 3: Terrabe says they are an important tool for governments to 160 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 3: use on the world stage, especially as tensions grow between 161 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 3: the US and China, and as China seeks to wield 162 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 3: more power and influence abroad. 163 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: It's a really important weapon for any government to have. 164 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: You have the power to go into a device and 165 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: no one else knows about it, maybe for months, so 166 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: you can sit on it and use it at your will. 167 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: Who do you want to target? Do you want to 168 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: target your domestic population? Do you want to target dissidents? 169 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,599 Speaker 1: The Chinese have recognized that it is a very useful tool, 170 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 1: and they're spending a lot of money. They're investing a 171 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,479 Speaker 1: lot of time and talent, and they're growing their technology 172 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: at a pace that the rest of the world is 173 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: struggling too much. 174 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 3: And it's not just about stealing data in corporate espionage. 175 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 3: Hacking campaigns can target operational technology that controls critical infrastructure, 176 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 3: think power grids and water supply systems. One hacking campaign 177 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 3: the US is especially concerned about is called vult Typhoon. 178 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 3: US intelligence agencies accused Chinese state hackers of compromising critical 179 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: infrastructure on where the US has a military base. 180 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: The volt Typhoon campaign is basically the discovery of Chinese 181 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: state sponsored actors hiding in critical infrastructure just lurking and 182 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: waiting for the right moment to flick a switch, to disrupt, 183 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: to cause chaos or confusion, or to delay responses to 184 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: possible military action that China might decide to embark on. 185 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: So that's what. 186 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 5: The cyber army looks like to the Chinese leadership. It 187 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 5: is a tool to be used in the event of 188 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 5: military action. 189 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 4: It is also a tool to be used. 190 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: In intelligence gathering, as they did when they hacked the 191 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: emails of many of the State Department officials, as well 192 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: as the most recent campaign where they hacked into the 193 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: funds of the Trump campaign. 194 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 3: China has repeatedly denied any accusations of malicious hacking, and 195 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 3: have also long accused the US and other countries of 196 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 3: cyber espionage. 197 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: This is all about. 198 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 5: Who's the better spy. 199 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: There's always been this idea that we're going to spy 200 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: on you, you're going to spy on us. But we 201 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: don't know what the US is doing. We don't know 202 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: what the French are doing, we don't know what the 203 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: Australians are doing, we don't know what the British are doing. 204 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 5: But that's the game. 205 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 3: And as we hear more about these cyber attacks. Is 206 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 3: there anything the US or other governments can do. 207 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 5: At this point, with the latest administration, we're starting to 208 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 5: hear a lot more strident voices about hacking back on 209 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 5: the Hill. 210 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: The head of the House Homeline Security Committee, doctor Mark Green, 211 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: wants to hack back, wants to get private companies to 212 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: carry out hacking offensive cyber campaigns. The thing is, we 213 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: don't know if they're not already doing that. 214 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 4: You know, we don't know what the NSA is doing. 215 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: For the longest time, it was called no such agency 216 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: because they never wanted to admit that they even existed, 217 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: let alone tell everyone what they were doing. 218 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: And Jamie says, part of the reason why these calls 219 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: for offensive cyber campaigns are rising is because of the 220 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 3: difficulties in holding people accountable for these cyber attacks. 221 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: This is the same thing that happens with Russian criminal hackers. 222 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: They all get indicted and they remain where they are. 223 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: They stay in Russia or China, or they travel to 224 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: countries where they won't get extradited and they face no consequences. 225 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 4: One of the things with the ICEN leaks was these 226 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 4: people aren't really paid a. 227 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: Lot, and they're sort of at the bottom of the ladder, 228 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: so they're doing someone else's bidding. So even if they 229 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: were targeted, it doesn't change the apparatus. It doesn't change 230 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: the fact that this is a policy in the government 231 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: or within this agency to carry out this kind of behavior. 232 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 3: So what I'm hearing then is you're saying China is 233 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 3: basically going to continue to keep doing what it's doing 234 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 3: and there's no one that can stop them. 235 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: There are sanctions. We see export controls coming in, we 236 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: see sanctions against individuals, we see. 237 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 4: Sanctions against goods. 238 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: Right we start to see Chinese products or companies getting 239 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: banned from the US. We see people in the US 240 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: being banned from trading or investing in Chinese companies. But 241 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: short of being able to bring some of these people in, 242 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't really happen because attribution is always so hard. 243 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: You know, you can say I have all of the 244 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: elements that match this Chinese actor, but you're never going 245 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: to know definitively. We live in a world now where 246 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: AI is rapidly advancing. A lot of these cyber attacks 247 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: can be automated in the future. The more we rely 248 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: on tech, the more exposure we have, the more opportunities 249 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: for all kinds of hackers to infiltrade, encrypt sabotage, hold you, transom, 250 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: disrupt to all the things. So there are going to 251 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: be more opportunities, not less. 252 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 3: This is The Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm wanha. 253 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 3: To get more from The Big Take and unlimited access 254 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 3: to all of Bloomberg dot Com, subscribe today at Bloomberg 255 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: dot com slash podcast Offer. If you like this episode, 256 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 3: make sure to subscribe and review The Big Take Asia 257 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 3: wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people find 258 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 3: the show. Thanks for listening, See you next time.