1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: It. It could happen here. It's the podcast that's called it 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,239 Speaker 1: Could Happen Here. Things fall apart and put them back 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: together again, etcetera, et cetera. We're slightly rushing this intro 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: because Garrison had to leave in like ten minutes, not 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: ten minutes. But yeah, yeah, so we've spent a lot 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: of time covering the sort of various aspects of the 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: transgend aside we haven't The aspect of the angle we 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: haven't covered that much is The New York Times. And 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: partially that's my fault because if I every time I've 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: tried to write something about New York Times, it's devolved 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,319 Speaker 1: into about seven hours and be reading every single time 12 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: The New York Times wrote an article that was pro Hitler. 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's difficult to be what you 14 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: would describe is reasonably objective when you're talking about these 15 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: people and not just start yelling about the Iraq War. However, 16 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: coma other people have done a very very good job 17 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: about this, and things have developed in the sort of 18 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: world of the New York Times printing just incredibly bizarre 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: transphobic articles and to talk about one of these things, 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: and some developments on one of their stories. We are 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: talking to Evan erk Hard of Assigned Media, who has 22 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: published a very very good story about some real nonsense 23 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: that The New York Times in their journalists have gotten 24 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: up to. So Fa, welcome to the show. 25 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm always glad to talk 26 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: about nonsense. 27 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been it's it's been a real time. Also 28 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: here is Garrison. Yeah. So I guess, okay, I think 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: the place to start with this is getting people caught 30 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: up with the incredibly bizarre story of Jamie Reid. So 31 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: I guess I wanted to start there. Can you talk 32 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: a little bit about who Jamie Reid is and how 33 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: the New York Times and a bunch of other very 34 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: less reputable somehow newspaper has got involved with this. 35 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean there are certainly reputable newspapers that 36 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: have looked into the allegations of former gender clinic staff 37 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: member in Saint Louis, Jamie Reid, and those organizations, including 38 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: local papers, have found that her allegations didn't hold up. 39 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 3: This was. 40 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: Months ago, kind of the beginning of the year. I 41 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: believe she kind of came forward with great fanfare and 42 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 2: an alliance defending freedom lawyer and said that the gender 43 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: clinic she once worked at was harming children. They weren't 44 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: engaging in informed consent. They were pressuring parents to go 45 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: along with these harmful treatments, horrifying stuff that if true, 46 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: would be just a major major scandal if true, and 47 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 2: the allegations all part pretty quickly. Numerous parents and patients 48 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: came back, came, you know, forward saying this is nothing 49 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: like what we've experienced. Some of that was pretty directly 50 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: refuting things that she said, such as, you know, kids 51 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: never got any therapy. They just saw a therapist for 52 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: an hour and an undercanologist for an hour and were immediately. 53 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 3: Approved for hormones. 54 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: And so people came forward saying I did six months 55 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: of therapy, I did nine months of therapy. 56 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: I wish you could do that. Like no, like right. 57 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: I mean, it was very wild and very discredited. And 58 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: then for some reason, apparently back in May, as En 59 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: Graaschi of the New York Times started looking into this story, 60 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: and she didn't find anything different. I mean, if you 61 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: look at her reporting, if anything, she found even more 62 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: evidence that Jamie Reid is not accurate and not on 63 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: the up and up. But the story that she came 64 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: out with is really really weird. 65 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 4: And I think the thing, the thing that that is 66 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 4: the most at least before before the most recent round 67 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 4: of incredibly bizarre stuff, The thing that's the most infuriating 68 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 4: to me about the sort of Jamie Reid's story is. 69 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: That the thing that had come out by the time 70 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: The New York Times was writing about it was that 71 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: it looked a lot like if you look at the 72 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: stuff that Jamie Reid had been doing and people talking 73 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: about their experiences with her, it looked like she was 74 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: trying to sabotage kids getting healthcare because she personally didn't 75 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: believe in it. 76 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 2: I talked to a parent, a parent who was also 77 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: talked to by The New York Times, who had really 78 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: just wanted like an educational visit for her like eight 79 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: year old, and Jamie Reid said, we can't do anything 80 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 2: for you. 81 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 3: Sorry. 82 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: Uh, you know, we can only bring you in if 83 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: your child is an adolescent ready to go on hormone therapy. 84 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: And so after the allegations came out, this parent got 85 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 2: in touch with the clinic Jamie Reid had left, and 86 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: they were like, what are you talking about. We do 87 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 2: educational appointments all the time. 88 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 3: Come in. 89 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: They spent you know, almost two hours talking to the 90 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 2: family about the different you know, medical possibilities in the 91 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,559 Speaker 2: far future and just you know, trying to help educate 92 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 2: the kid about their body and their options years and 93 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: years before they never need anything. 94 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is really infuriating because like the actual story 95 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: here is that you know, even even clinics that are 96 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: like trying to do the right thing wind up with 97 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: just incredibly deranged CIS people who basically can at every 98 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: point in the process act as a gatekeeper and decide 99 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: that like you don't get to get treatments, and that's 100 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: awful and is one of them. I mean, you know, 101 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: even even in place, even even in parts of the US, 102 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: at clinics that are good, that is a thing that 103 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: can just happen to you, is you get these sort 104 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: of gatekeeper stuff. But instead of doing that, instead of 105 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: again covering the story they had been handed about someone 106 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: trying to keep kids from getting health care. 107 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 3: They did this. 108 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: They you know, this this turned into this like like 109 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: full court press against Wait, Gary, you you're right. 110 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 5: I closed my door because the air conditioner is way 111 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 5: too loudly. 112 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 3: There's cats. 113 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 5: But now the cats start screaming at the door. But 114 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 5: now I open the door, they and they don't want 115 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 5: to come in. They're just like all the threshold, just 116 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 5: like staring at me, like make a choice, come in 117 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 5: on them out. 118 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 3: And I believe we're leaving this in. 119 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: This is great content. 120 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 5: They're out, They're gone. They had their chance. They blew it. 121 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, what happens instead is this is this sort of 122 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: like full court press with a bunch of you know, 123 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: starting in sort of conservative media and then moving into 124 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: sort of liberal media, like using this story as an 125 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: example of like why why we have to like stop 126 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,239 Speaker 1: like we have to shut down clinics and stuff while. 127 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 5: Children's hospitals are getting bomb threats, yeah, constantly, mostly mostly 128 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 5: due to kind of prodding by ghouls the Daily Wire 129 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 5: who are hunting for clicks. And yeah, there's also a 130 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 5: big part of this is like this tactic of attacking 131 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 5: like healthcare centers and clinics proved to be a pretty 132 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 5: good recipe to go viral. That's what the Daily Wire discovered. 133 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 5: And that's something that New York Times certainly took notice 134 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 5: of as well, is that, hey, this is this is 135 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 5: a way to drive a lot of attention towards our website. 136 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 5: That is just another another angle about this, this sort 137 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 5: of thing, which also, like it leads to real world consequences, 138 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 5: not just in terms of healthcare getting restricted, but also 139 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 5: like threats of violence against doctors. The right has historically 140 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 5: been completely willing to carry out acts of violence against 141 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 5: healthcare workers and let alone you know, trying threatening to 142 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 5: bomb a children's hospital. 143 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the exact allegations were, We're really devastating. 144 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: For these families. 145 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I love to Heidi, who's you know, her 146 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: daughter's personal medical history was misrepresented, shared with the world, 147 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: shared in a million articles, and used to fuel gender 148 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: firming care bands, you know, I mean that is like 149 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: really damaging for a like seventeen eighteen year old who's 150 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 2: just trying to like live her life in kind of 151 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: a conservative town. 152 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: Which also and this is an another aspect of this, 153 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: is like she is sharing the private medical history of 154 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: patients at a clinic, which you are not allowed to do. 155 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: That is a which is very funny for people who 156 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: rant about these all of these people all the time. 157 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 3: Only we finally got one. 158 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: We finally got an actual hippo violation. 159 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 3: And uh yeah, I. 160 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: Think the Hippa thing has been I mean, you know, 161 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: as Zingeration could have gotten that story, I feel, I mean, 162 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 2: I think it's been really undercovered. My understanding is that 163 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: healthcare workers are not supposed to have to share information 164 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: that's identifiable to the patient. And we have a patient 165 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 2: saying I can tell this was my story. And so 166 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: again I'm not a lawyer, but I think that people 167 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: have underestimated the extent to which real families could look 168 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 2: at these allegations and say, this is me, twisted, distorted, 169 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: used to hurt my family and other families like mine, 170 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 2: And there's kind of no outrage about that. It's kind 171 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 2: of this neglected backwater of this story. 172 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, I mean, the thing it reminds 173 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: me the most of is the is the original like 174 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: vaccines cause autism story where you have someone who is 175 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: incredibly politically motivated, who is incredibly unreliable, who's demlishrably unreliable, 176 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 1: who is not someone who's you know, who's someone who 177 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: in the field, Everyone's like, what is going on here? 178 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: This is complete nonsense, who like misrepresents and just straight 179 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: up lies about about like about about their patients. And 180 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: then also it turns out like has abused their patients, 181 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: or in this case is not has abuse of patients, 182 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 1: and in this case case like has successfully like stopped parents 183 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: from being able to talk to the clinic about what 184 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: the options for their kids are. But the media sort 185 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: of doesn't care about that all. All they all they 186 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: see is sort of this story and they they just 187 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: sort of latch onto it, and then they spread all 188 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: of this stuff and it's like, you know, it reminds 189 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: it reminds me a lot of that where like, wait, 190 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: we're still dealing with the consequences of just the completely 191 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: fake bullshit about like vaccism, vaccines supposedly causing autism, which 192 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: and again like that that's stuffing that never that never 193 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: would have gotten mainstreamed if the media hadn't picked it 194 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: up and ran with it. And yet you know, every 195 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: single time one of these absolute like politically motivated frauds 196 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: like gets up on the stands, like there there's the 197 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: New York Times doing doing their article about it, and 198 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: and like. 199 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 5: This used to be like Glenn Beck's territory, who would 200 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 5: like bring out like a chocobar didn make like a 201 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 5: make like a crazy wall with you like yarn and 202 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 5: string and now it's it actually has been relegated to 203 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 5: the New York Times, the sort of the sort of 204 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 5: coverage that they're doing over these types of like moral 205 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 5: panics around healthcare. I think, like if if you look 206 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 5: at like Fox News twenty years ago, this was the 207 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 5: type of stuff that they did for a long time 208 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 5: before it was actually a little bit too insane and 209 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 5: they had to like fire Glenn Beck, and it's it's this. 210 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 5: It's the same sort of stuff now that's propagated by 211 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 5: people like The Daily Wire and then picked up on 212 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 5: by even more kind of mainstream publications. 213 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I think what's so insidious about this story 214 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: in particular and some of the other New York Times 215 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 2: stories is that they represent this as being their deep 216 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 2: investigative journalism. They represent this as being the finest that 217 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 2: the Times produces. And here is you know, the mother 218 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 2: of a trans girl who went to the reporter and said, 219 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: I can prove to you I have medical records, I 220 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: have emails to prove to you that what is in 221 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 2: this allegation is about my family and isn't true. The 222 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 2: reporter takes that and kind of sticks it in at 223 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 2: the end, you know, like that it's not lying, but 224 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: it is so totally distorting the truth that it feels 225 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: like lying. 226 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 3: It feels worse than lying almost. 227 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, especially because there's like like thousands of people who 228 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 5: will just read the headline. They're not going to scroll 229 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 5: to the bottom of the thing and read a little 230 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 5: disclaimer and be like haha, jakay lie. 231 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: Not everything that's not good enough. Yeah, and I think 232 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: this gets into the party. So you very recently talked 233 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: to the mother of one of the girls who was 234 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, who who read has been lying about and. 235 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: To three of the parents who who Zine had talked to. 236 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you discovered some very disturbing and incredibly bizarre 237 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: stuff that a Zene was doing to get parents to 238 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: stay in the story. After reads and like this was 239 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: in your follow up story, after a bunch of people 240 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: came out and were like, Hey, this is like not correct. 241 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: This person has in fact been lying about this. Yeah, 242 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: So you could you go into what you found about this? 243 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was truly truly bizarre. I mean I going 244 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: in There were some parents that contacted me because they'd 245 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: spoken to a Zene Grayishi and they were really upset 246 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 2: about the story. And you know, I went into it 247 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: thinking I'm going to do them a favor, I'm going 248 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: to let them feel heard. They feel disappointed about the story. 249 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 2: This kind of happens in journalism. 250 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 3: I was not expecting what I got. 251 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 2: So this parent had been very suspicious of a Zene 252 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: because of Azine's previous writing about trans issues, and so 253 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 2: I think she and her family kind of were very 254 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: cautious and very savvy, and they said, we don't want 255 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: to be part of a story that's going to be 256 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 2: negative on this clinic that we feel saved our daughter's life. 257 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: So you know, I'm willing to talk to you, I'm 258 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: willing to give you this information about this person who 259 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: lied about our daughter's history, but if you're going to 260 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: turn that into a hit piece on the clinic. 261 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 3: We don't want to be part of it. 262 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: And A Zene, you know, reassured her, calmed her fears, 263 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: and so you know they were going forward but cautiously. 264 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: And then this mother sees a zine at a courthouse 265 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: where Jamie Reid was testifying about the allegations in Missouri 266 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: and just sees the warm relationship between A Zene and 267 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: Jamie Reid, and she thinks something isn't right here. I 268 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: helped her catch this person in a lie. But they're all, 269 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: you know, buddy, buddy, that seems weird. So she, you know, 270 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: she first went up to Jamie Reid and confronted her. 271 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: She said, I'm liver toxicity mom, and you know, she 272 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 2: again noticed that Jamie Reid is kind of saying how 273 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: can I help you? What do you want and like 274 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: looking to a Zine like save me from this crazy person. 275 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: And so that's when the mother said, we're out. We're 276 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: not We're not going to be part of the story. 277 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 2: And a Zene did not take that for answer. Yeah, 278 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 2: it's nuts. She followed them to their car. As they're 279 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 2: trying to leave, she stood in the car door so 280 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: they couldn't drive away, saying, you know, please keep talking, 281 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: to keep talking. You know, I need I don't know 282 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: exactly what she's saying, but like I need you in 283 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: the story. And you know, the mom says, like, no, Zine, 284 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: we're out. Could please step away from the car, and 285 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: they drove away, and then Azine called them and called 286 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 2: them and they picked up, and a Zine managed to 287 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: convince them to let her come over to their hotel room. 288 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 2: This is the night before the New York Times article published, 289 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: and so now Heidi and her husband and Zene are 290 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: in this hotel room and a Zene is going paragraph 291 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 2: by paragraph telling her everything that's in the story, trying 292 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 2: to convince her that it's not a hit piece on 293 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 2: the clinic, and the family isn't buying it at all. 294 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 2: The family is like, no, you're describing a hit piece 295 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: on the clinic. 296 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: Where Yeah, But. 297 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: They're left with this horrible, horrible conundrum because if they 298 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: actually pull out of the article, which as far as 299 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: I can tell, they really did have this agreement. Again, 300 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 2: azine wouldn't talk to me, so like it's a little 301 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: unclear what the agreement was or exactly what's going on here. 302 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 2: But in the end they decided, you know, there's no 303 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: evidence that this woman lied if we pull out of 304 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: the story. So they felt that they had kind of 305 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: no choice. Even though they felt completely betrayed, completely devastated 306 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: that their story was going to be used in this way, 307 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: they felt they had no choice but to stay in. 308 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then like the and the way that like 309 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: it ends, the article like is is basically like the 310 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: article is like completely supportive of Jamie Reid, even though 311 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: again demolishrably in the article she is lying. 312 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 3: Such a weird article. 313 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: You find someone's lying, but you're still spending all of 314 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 2: your words saying, well, so she's say she lied this 315 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 2: one time, but she's basically credible. 316 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 3: Just bizarre. 317 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you know, and the New York Times 318 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: is response to this is like the piece you're referring 319 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: to was rigorously a reporter and edited and thoughtful and 320 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: sensitive to the moment. The Times stands behind his publication imberservely. 321 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: It's like, well, yeah, of course, of course it meets 322 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: the New York Times like incredibly demanding standards for journalism. 323 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: These are the people who published like these are the 324 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: people who published the yellow Cake Uranium story, like these 325 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: people like these people have published things that like a 326 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: a like these are these people have published off about 327 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: the Iraq War that like British tabloids wouldn't publish. So like, yeah, 328 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: it's it's not it's not I don't I don't think 329 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: it's that surprising to me that, like the New York 330 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: Times was like this passion editorial standards. But that's because again, 331 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: the New York Times backed Hitler and like deliberately go 332 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: forth the entire country. You're starting a war by straight 333 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: up lying about a bunch of stuff they do was fake. 334 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: Let me take a moment and say, there are a 335 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 2: lot of reporters who work for the New York Times 336 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 2: who do really great work, very very occasionally it's even 337 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: about trans issues. But like it is certainly not a 338 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: monolith of ridiculous nonsense. It's just all of the good 339 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: work kind of camouflages the ridiculous nonsense and lets them 340 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 2: get it through when they when they go on a tear, 341 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 2: when they go on a crusade against you know, against someone. 342 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean it's it's they. I don't know, 343 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: The New York Times, they they pick, they pick their 344 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: moments to get incredibly ideological about this, and then they 345 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 1: hide behind the more normal reporting they do in order 346 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: to sort of like disguise the fact that again there's 347 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: sort of this person knows that their sources lie, is 348 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: demonstrably lying to them. I just I don't know, it's 349 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: it's the thing that was interesting to me about the 350 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 1: story too, is that as zen As, someone who up 351 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: until this point like seems to it like like from 352 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: everything I had been aware of a zine from. 353 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: Asinine did really good me too, reporting. I believe, yeah, 354 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 2: science any commany. 355 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 1: In astronomy, which I like. The thing I don't talk 356 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: about enormously was that I did astronomy for a little bit. 357 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: I didn't do very much astronomy, but there was a 358 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: there was a small amount of time where I wanted 359 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: to do astronomy, and so, like I knew a bunch 360 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: of the people like in that scene a zine had 361 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: a very very good rep there as like the person 362 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: you could go to to talk about, like like to 363 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: do a B two story, which makes it even more 364 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: weird that, you know, I guess this is just I 365 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,479 Speaker 1: don't know. I'm hesitant to just brush this off as 366 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: sort of like trans brain where like some like a 367 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: sister reporter starts covering trans stuff just completely loses their mind. 368 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: But you know, it's it's a really startling and disturbing 369 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: like shift from this person who had a very very 370 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: good rep on yes, like as someone you could go 371 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 1: to to, like her standing in someone's car door trying 372 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: to stop a family from driving away because they want 373 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: to because they don't want to be involved in a 374 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: story where she's lying about them. 375 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 5: Who could have thought that a radical feminist could be 376 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 5: trans exclusionary. 377 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 3: It's just crazy. People are complicated. 378 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 2: It I think has to do with who she feels 379 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: sympathy for, and women in science are maybe people that 380 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: she feel sympathy for and who she or I have 381 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 2: no idea what reason doesn't And like innocent parents of 382 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 2: trans youth are apparently people she doesn't really have that 383 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 2: empathy for, have. 384 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: That ability to, or the kids themselves apparently. 385 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: I mean, as a transperson, I never expect a reporter 386 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 2: to for me. But these white parents, these middle class 387 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 2: white parents, please, you must take them seriously. 388 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: The other thing I think I wanted to talk about 389 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: was the impact that this reporting has had on the 390 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: broader So we we alluded to this a little bit, 391 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: but yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about 392 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: the way that right wing sort of right wing lawyers, 393 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: like right wing politicians have been using like specifically this 394 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: coverage and also sort of like the fear mongering around 395 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: gender clinics as something they're using to support, like health 396 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: to support healthcare bands on trans youth. 397 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, Jamie Read's allegations directly resulted in a ban on 398 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 2: gender affirming care in Missouri. You know, there were families 399 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: that were going to the legislature week after week, and 400 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 2: we're keeping it at bay, and then these allegations came 401 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 2: out and it fell apart and the caravan was passed. 402 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 3: And you know, it would be. 403 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 2: Bad enough if they found a bad clinic, but you know, 404 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: there's nothing miraculous about doctors who treat trans people that 405 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 2: makes them incapable of being an ethical you know, like 406 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 2: it would have been devastating if it was the truth, 407 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: but for it to have been, you know, all based 408 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: on lies, is it's just a really tough blow. 409 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like you know, like I have friends there, 410 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: and it's it's like it's bleak right now, and I 411 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: think I've been really you know, I mean, I don't 412 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: know why I would I expected these people to sort 413 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: of like even remotely feel a single emotion about the 414 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: fact that directly the stuff, the actions that they did 415 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: led directly to a bunch of kids losing their healthcare. 416 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: But you know, there's been no there's been no reckoning 417 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: with this right as best I can tell, neither New 418 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: York Times nor any of the journalists, involve, any of 419 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: the editors, any publishers, none of the people seem to care 420 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: at all about the fact that they're about their work 421 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: directly is leading to the suffering and possibly death of children. 422 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 1: And I don't know, like I I this is one 423 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: of those things where like either either something about this 424 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: changes and you know, we get to a point where 425 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: it's unacceptable to sort of do this kind of stuff, 426 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: or we just you know, we wait for the next 427 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: round of journalists to like find some absolute crank who 428 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: they like dug out of some like Derain Superbub mc 429 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: mansions somewhere to like push push another one of these stories. 430 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,479 Speaker 1: Because right now, like this is this is disappears to 431 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: just be an established path that you can use to 432 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: sort of like you know, like from from both ends. Right, 433 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: it's the thing you can use as the journalist's advantage career, 434 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: and is the thing you can use as like a 435 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: crank to be suddenly on the talk show start going 436 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: to get a bunch of money. It's just lying about 437 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: all of this stuff, yep. 438 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 2: And I mean, you know, you try to inject some accountability, 439 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 2: but you can't make people listen. Yeah, this is what 440 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 2: I do every day, and I'm going to keep doing it. 441 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 2: But I'm under no illusions that since people are necessarily 442 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 2: going to start listening. It's just you got to put 443 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 2: it out there. 444 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 5: Yeah. 445 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: So, I guess two more things I wanted to ask 446 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: about before we sort of wrap up. One is, Okay, so, 447 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: on the off chance that there are SIS journalists listening 448 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: to this, what kinds of things would you recommend to 449 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: them to, like, to make to make sure you a 450 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: don't fall down this rabbit hole and b to make 451 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: sure that if you are attempting to write a story 452 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: that is good, that you get things right. 453 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 454 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 2: So, the Trans Journalist Association recently published an updated style guide, 455 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 2: which I would absolutely suggest people check out because it's 456 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: much more in depth than anything that I can can say. 457 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: But I think that the biggest pitfall people have is 458 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 2: thinking that they understand more than they do so and 459 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 2: I think that the kind of connected pitfall is just 460 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: a where there's smoke, there's fire, like, well, there must 461 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: be more to the skeptical side than there really is. 462 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 2: So while I, you know, always try to butter journalists 463 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: up by saying you can make up your own mind 464 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 2: and you know, look at the evidence, like, really engage 465 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 2: with trans people who are not just telling their stories, 466 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 2: but who are science reporters themselves, like myself, really engage 467 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 2: with experts who are not trans, but who understand this 468 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 2: medical information and are representatives of a mainstream medical consensus, 469 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: and really try to, you know, understand that the experts 470 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 2: are experts for a reason, and the mainstream consensus is 471 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 2: a mainstream consensus for a reason. And don't be so 472 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: quick to just assume that a bunch of activists and 473 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,719 Speaker 2: cranks know something that everyone else is trying to keep 474 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: from you, because that is a conspiratorial mindset that is 475 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 2: below you as a mainstream cisgender journalist, and that you 476 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't be falling into with you know, masks or anti 477 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: vacs or whatever. And it's just because trans people are 478 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 2: marginalized that I think people are kind of falling for 479 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: this crap and getting rolled. 480 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: You are not ye conspiratorial thing. Yeah, well this is 481 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 1: this is something. This is something I'm going to talk 482 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: about at length more in one day. The like sixty 483 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: five thousand word thing that I've been writing about, the 484 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: lab leak stuff is going to come out. And you know, 485 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: one of the god I have I have spent so 486 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 1: many hours talking to epidemiologists. You have no idea, but 487 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: one of the things that you know comes up there, 488 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: and it comes up also just in general science. Conspiratism 489 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: is if someone like people who actually do normal science 490 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: do not start yelling about how they're being censored by 491 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: the scientific establishment and like there's a giant conspiracy to 492 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: stop them from talking about their work, even people who 493 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: legitimately are being like actually screwed over by scientific establishment, right, 494 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: people who have been abused, people you know, like people 495 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: of color, people from marginalized backgrounds, who like I like, 496 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: I know these people, right, I grew up with a 497 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: bunch of these people. They don't talk like this about that. 498 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: The only people who talk like this are absolute cranks. 499 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: And it would be really great if journalists realized that 500 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: actual scientists don't talk about science in a way where 501 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: they're like, ah, the medical establishment is censoring me. Would 502 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: I would love for that to happen. I don't know. 503 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: I'm skeptical that it will happen because it's it's a 504 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: great story. 505 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 2: Everyone knows that there are times when the medical or 506 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 2: when the medical or scientific establishment is wrong. 507 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: You, as a lay journalist. 508 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 2: Are probably not going to be able to tell I 509 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 2: am sorry which times those are so slow? Your role 510 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: don't envision Pulitzers and get grounded on you know what 511 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 2: the basics are, instead of thinking that you kind of 512 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 2: know better than the people who spend their lives researching. 513 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 2: This is my entreaty to journalists who maybe don't realize 514 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 2: how transphobia might be playing a role in there, wanting 515 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: to believe certain things. 516 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess the last thing I wanted to 517 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: ask you about, Uh, yeah, I wanted to ask you 518 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: about the trans Data Library because I'm very excited about this. 519 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: This sounds rad. 520 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know, a few months ago I started working, 521 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: you know, with some other people in the trans community, 522 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 2: most of whom are you know, staying anonymous on a 523 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 2: resource to try and help people who you know, we're 524 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 2: really envisioned people who are in good faith, but trans 525 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: issues are not their main thing, you know what I mean. 526 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 3: So like not someone not as. 527 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: Ingoti, but maybe a Zingerati of five years ago, you 528 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 2: know what I mean, the person who is a journalist 529 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 2: who wants to get the story right, but there's so 530 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: much misinformation out there, There's so many groups with so 531 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 2: many different names. They're very skilled sometimes as presenting themselves 532 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: as you know, legitimate. So this is The Transdata Library 533 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: upcoming hopefully by the end of the month, is going 534 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 2: to be a kind. 535 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 3: Of you know, Wikipedia for the user. 536 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 2: Not Wikipedia and not like edible by the community, because 537 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 2: that's very bad idea for trade stuff. A resource on 538 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 2: what are these groups, who are these activists, what have 539 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 2: they done in the past. It is intended as a 540 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: journalistic resource, not an activist resource, which just means, you know, 541 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: if someone is there isn't anyone like this. But if 542 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 2: someone is a Nobel Prize winning scientist, we're not going 543 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 2: to pretend they didn't, you know what I mean. If 544 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: someone has legitimate potentials, you will find that out. If 545 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: someone has said things that are discrediting, you'll find that out. 546 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 2: But it isn't just a list of the most discrediting 547 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: things someone has said. And we are going to, you know, 548 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 2: directly try to get this out to journalists, local journalists, 549 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 2: particularly people again who have decent coverage, not people who 550 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: are you know, already on a tear and to democratic 551 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 2: politicians who similarly are you know, sympathetic but might need 552 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: an extra source of information. 553 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 3: And yeah, it is, it is coming. 554 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 2: I want people to be aware of it so that 555 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 2: they can start spreading it and sharing it when it does, 556 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: so that we can hopefully try to, you know, just 557 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: get some basic information into the hands of people who 558 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 2: I think desperately need it. They may not know that 559 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 2: they desperately need it, but desperately need basic information on 560 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 2: some of these groups and some of these bad actors. 561 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: I think that's definitely a good thing because there is 562 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: a lot of information out there on the connections between 563 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: you know, the sort of right wing grifters who come 564 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: out of the woodworks talking about this stuff, and you know, 565 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're they're sort of demonstrable links to 566 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: far right extremist groups, to the Proud Boys, to you know, 567 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: sort of right wing think tanks. But that's stuff that like, 568 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: the the subset of trans people who spend their time 569 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: doing this are all very well aware of, but the 570 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: reporters who are sort of venturing into the space for 571 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: the first time don't know about it all. And yeah, 572 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: having having a thing we can put into their laps 573 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: being like, hey, this is these are all the people 574 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: who are like getting paid by the Lions defending freedom 575 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: and stuff. Yeah, that's what. 576 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 3: I'm hoping to make. 577 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 2: So the u r L is probably going to be 578 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 2: trans Data Library dot org. It is a little broken 579 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 2: right now, go to a sidemedia dot org. You know, 580 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 2: follow me, follow my Twitter, follow my project, and watch 581 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: that space for the trans Data Library because I'm hoping 582 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 2: it can do some good. 583 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited for it. And yeah, do you have 584 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: anything else you want to say before we close out? 585 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 2: I think that's it for me. Thank you so much 586 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 2: for having me on. This was really fun. 587 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, thanks for coming and thanks thanks for 588 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: reporting on this story because lord knows, the rest of 589 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: the media wasn't going to do it. 590 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 3: That's why I started doing it. 591 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: All right, this has been It can happen here. You 592 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter, Instagram, It happened here, pods 593 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: and yeah, go into the world and be better about this. 594 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: The New York Times, which is not an enormously high bar, 595 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: but it's a bar they consistently failed across. So you 596 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: too could be superor. Have superior journalistic ethics The New 597 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: York Times. 598 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: Ah, this is what I tell myself every day. 599 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 600 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 5: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 601 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 5: Coolzonemedia dot com. 602 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 603 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find sources 604 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: for It could happen here, Updated monthly at Coolzonmedia dot 605 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: com slash sources. Thanks for listening.