WEBVTT - The Blackberry Problem | The Mistakes Series 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:20.316 --> 0:00:22.956 It dawns on all of us at some point before 0:00:23.076 --> 0:00:27.396 adolescence that there is something called smart, and it is 0:00:27.636 --> 0:00:30.836 really rare. Only a small number of people are smart. 0:00:31.356 --> 0:00:34.076 And then a few years later you have an even 0:00:34.116 --> 0:00:38.316 more important realization, which is that smart comes in many 0:00:38.396 --> 0:00:43.156 different varieties. I feel I spent my adolescence cataloging all 0:00:43.156 --> 0:00:46.236 the varieties of smart. There was my high school friend 0:00:46.356 --> 0:00:48.956 who had a mind that was a giant sponge that 0:00:48.996 --> 0:00:51.796 could soak up what seemed like an infinite amount of knowledge. 0:00:52.236 --> 0:00:54.156 Then I got to college, I met a guy who's 0:00:54.156 --> 0:00:58.996 thinking seemed effortless. He could be distracted or procrastinating, or 0:00:59.076 --> 0:01:01.756 dancing at a party, it didn't matter. Somewhere in a 0:01:01.796 --> 0:01:04.436 back room in his brain was a giant computer that 0:01:04.596 --> 0:01:09.316 just quietly hummed along, solving one problem after another. Oh 0:01:09.396 --> 0:01:11.196 then I had a friend who to mind that she'd 0:01:11.196 --> 0:01:14.796 attached to a giant V eight with like eight hundred horsepower. 0:01:15.316 --> 0:01:18.596 I'd never seen smart attached to energy like that before. 0:01:19.676 --> 0:01:22.036 I spent a lot of time in college working on 0:01:22.076 --> 0:01:24.956 my taxonomy of smart, and along the way I had 0:01:24.956 --> 0:01:30.476 a third realization that every kind of exceptional intelligence has 0:01:30.516 --> 0:01:34.036 a downside, a price that person had to pay for 0:01:34.156 --> 0:01:37.116 being one of the chosen few. And every time I 0:01:37.116 --> 0:01:39.396 think of that third role, I think of my old 0:01:39.436 --> 0:01:41.036 college friend Jim Balsley. 0:01:43.756 --> 0:01:48.676 My mistake in naivety was to think that people were 0:01:48.756 --> 0:01:52.196 with me. So you're flying around the world, You're trying 0:01:52.196 --> 0:01:56.196 to get people on side, and you think they're on side, 0:01:56.276 --> 0:02:00.036 but they're not, and you get blindsided. 0:02:03.356 --> 0:02:06.396 My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 0:02:06.676 --> 0:02:10.916 my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 0:02:10.956 --> 0:02:14.836 the fourth in our series on mistakes, inspired by Michael 0:02:14.836 --> 0:02:18.716 Linton and Josh Steiner's book From Mistakes to Meaning, And 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:21.716 this story is about the big mistake, the change the 0:02:21.756 --> 0:02:25.036 life of my old college friend Jim, who I will say, 0:02:25.036 --> 0:02:28.556 without reservation, is possessed of one of the most remarkable 0:02:28.596 --> 0:02:31.996 minds I have ever met, and paid a price for it. 0:02:36.996 --> 0:02:41.676 What was it like for you growing up? You grew 0:02:41.716 --> 0:02:44.596 up in Peterborough, Yes, I did. And you went to 0:02:45.436 --> 0:02:46.716 public high school in Peterborough. 0:02:47.316 --> 0:02:47.636 Yes. 0:02:48.596 --> 0:02:52.716 Peterborough, For those unfamiliar with southern Ontario is just over 0:02:52.716 --> 0:02:55.476 an hour east and north of Toronto. It is to 0:02:55.476 --> 0:02:58.796 Toronto roughly. What I don't know Poughkeepsie is to New 0:02:58.876 --> 0:02:59.356 York City. 0:03:00.156 --> 0:03:02.196 My dad was a tradesman, My mom was a homemaker. 0:03:03.716 --> 0:03:05.996 Your high school, I suspect was a lot like my 0:03:06.116 --> 0:03:12.116 high school. We're not talking about Exeter No, although actually 0:03:12.356 --> 0:03:14.436 I don't mean to diss it, because I got an 0:03:14.476 --> 0:03:17.956 amazing education from fabulous teachers. So what was it like 0:03:19.596 --> 0:03:23.276 to be you were the smart kid in high school? 0:03:24.276 --> 0:03:24.636 Yes? 0:03:24.916 --> 0:03:25.556 What was that like? 0:03:29.516 --> 0:03:31.236 I don't think they know what to do with you, 0:03:33.236 --> 0:03:36.836 So I think you're just I think there's a premium 0:03:36.876 --> 0:03:40.356 on compliance. I think we've learned now that high energy 0:03:40.436 --> 0:03:43.276 kids need to run around and when they're young, until 0:03:43.276 --> 0:03:45.836 they're tired. But kind of making them sitting at a 0:03:45.876 --> 0:03:49.756 desk all day is when they're young, it's really really difficult. 0:03:50.356 --> 0:03:53.716 Are you talking about yourself? Yes, very much so. And 0:03:54.316 --> 0:03:58.316 it was just incredibly boring and you just look at 0:03:58.316 --> 0:04:00.196 the clock and count minutes and. 0:04:00.516 --> 0:04:02.756 Yeah, did you get in trouble in high school? 0:04:04.036 --> 0:04:06.436 Yeah? Yeah, a few times. One time, when I was 0:04:06.436 --> 0:04:11.916 in grade seven, a teacher did a long formula across 0:04:11.996 --> 0:04:15.596 three or four boards and he said, where did I 0:04:15.636 --> 0:04:17.676 go wrong? And from the back of the class, I said, 0:04:17.676 --> 0:04:24.396 when you were born? And Malcolm and he took me 0:04:24.436 --> 0:04:26.036 out of the class and he held me up by 0:04:26.076 --> 0:04:27.716 the scruff of the neck and I was my fever 0:04:27.836 --> 0:04:30.316 off the ground against a locker, and he had me 0:04:30.396 --> 0:04:32.316 taken out of the math class. And I was just 0:04:33.156 --> 0:04:37.356 it seemed funny at the time. And then and then 0:04:37.436 --> 0:04:40.756 a couple months later there was there was a provincial 0:04:40.756 --> 0:04:43.716 math contest for you know, the ten million people in Ontario, 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:48.916 and as a grade seven I came first in grade 0:04:48.956 --> 0:04:50.196 seven and eighths in Ontario. 0:04:50.876 --> 0:04:53.716 He was the best math student in the entire province, 0:04:54.116 --> 0:04:57.116 but he wasn't allowed in his own math class. What 0:04:57.196 --> 0:04:58.756 did your parents make of you? 0:05:00.996 --> 0:05:04.956 When I was four years old, they took me to 0:05:05.116 --> 0:05:10.316 some child psychologist, which was they didn't know what to do. 0:05:10.956 --> 0:05:13.436 What were you doing for that led your parents to 0:05:13.476 --> 0:05:14.836 take you to a child psychologist? 0:05:15.356 --> 0:05:18.956 I don't know, I don't know. We're we're kind of 0:05:18.996 --> 0:05:22.636 Presbyterian southern Ontario, so you don't really talk a lot, 0:05:23.156 --> 0:05:26.396 you don't sort of you just sort of carry on 0:05:26.516 --> 0:05:30.116 and so you don't it's not like this rich unpacking 0:05:30.196 --> 0:05:34.556 of psychologists kids or something like that. Everybody's just, you know, 0:05:34.596 --> 0:05:37.036 it's kind of go play outside and you know, try 0:05:37.236 --> 0:05:39.076 try to make it home for a dinner kind of thing. Right. 0:05:39.636 --> 0:05:41.756 It was a very different era, very different era. 0:05:42.556 --> 0:05:45.716 In my taxonomy of smart, Jim has a whole category 0:05:45.716 --> 0:05:48.916 to himself. I don't mean this in a derogatory way, 0:05:49.116 --> 0:05:52.876 but Jim has cunning. My brain I was beginning to 0:05:52.956 --> 0:05:55.836 understand at that time likes to take the long way home. 0:05:56.316 --> 0:06:00.396 Jim only took shortcuts if life was amazed. Most of 0:06:00.476 --> 0:06:03.716 us stumble along, retracing our steps from one dead end 0:06:03.716 --> 0:06:06.036 to another dead end until we finally get to the 0:06:06.116 --> 0:06:10.396 other side. Jim would see the right path instantly, or 0:06:10.516 --> 0:06:13.636 more accurately. He would recognize that there's actually a gap 0:06:13.676 --> 0:06:15.916 in the hedge right at the start, which no one 0:06:15.916 --> 0:06:19.036 had ever noticed before, with a straight shot to the finish, 0:06:19.156 --> 0:06:21.476 and he'd just cut through there. And by the time 0:06:21.516 --> 0:06:23.596 the rest of us stumbled to the end, he had 0:06:23.636 --> 0:06:27.356 won the trophy, gone home, changed, and was having a beer. 0:06:27.796 --> 0:06:32.556 This is Canada, remember. Not long after college, Jim met 0:06:32.636 --> 0:06:35.796 an engineer named Mike Lazaritas who had a little company 0:06:35.836 --> 0:06:39.356 called Research in Motion RIM, as it was known. Jim 0:06:39.436 --> 0:06:42.716 becomes co CEO, and to the surprise of absolutely no 0:06:42.756 --> 0:06:45.956 one who knew him, builds RIM into a multi billion 0:06:45.996 --> 0:06:50.756 dollar juggernaut. Remember fifteen years ago when everyone had a BlackBerry, 0:06:51.116 --> 0:06:56.196 first real smartphone with those clickety clackety buttons. That was Jim, 0:06:56.876 --> 0:07:00.276 So why don't you use a BlackBerry anymore? In the 0:07:00.316 --> 0:07:03.276 business school case studies about the fall of BlackBerry, there 0:07:03.276 --> 0:07:07.276 are pages and pages on the rapidly shifting smartphone landscape 0:07:07.276 --> 0:07:12.236 of the early oughts, miscalculations, the cloud of Apple, all 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:14.956 the things that business goal case studies like to dwell on. 0:07:15.756 --> 0:07:19.036 But I think there's a simpler explanation. I think you 0:07:19.076 --> 0:07:24.076 need to understand something about my old friend Jim set 0:07:24.076 --> 0:07:24.836 the stage for me. 0:07:26.636 --> 0:07:33.716 Sure, it's interesting because when you talk about mistakes, and 0:07:34.036 --> 0:07:39.876 I do think the biggest mistake in my career when 0:07:39.916 --> 0:07:43.676 I look back with Rim, we had a fork in 0:07:43.716 --> 0:07:48.636 the road and I mismanaged the board relationship at a 0:07:48.676 --> 0:07:52.476 time where I wanted to go left and they decided 0:07:52.476 --> 0:07:57.236 to go right. And that not only changed the trajectory 0:07:57.276 --> 0:08:00.436 of the company, it changed the trajectory of the global 0:08:00.436 --> 0:08:18.316 technology industry. 0:08:18.476 --> 0:08:21.036 So tell me what do you mean by you wanted 0:08:21.036 --> 0:08:22.596 to go left and they wanted to go right? And 0:08:22.996 --> 0:08:23.716 what we're talking about? 0:08:23.756 --> 0:08:23.836 What? 0:08:23.876 --> 0:08:26.236 First of all, let's date this what ear are we 0:08:26.236 --> 0:08:26.876 talking about. 0:08:27.716 --> 0:08:35.396 We're talking twenty eleven, and a couple things were going on. 0:08:35.396 --> 0:08:39.076 One our hardware business had grown a lot, but it 0:08:39.116 --> 0:08:46.316 was under pressure, huge pressure, and there were new operating systems, 0:08:46.356 --> 0:08:49.556 one from Apple and one from Google. They were putting 0:08:49.596 --> 0:08:54.836 tremendous pressure on our hardware sales. But our services business 0:08:54.916 --> 0:08:57.236 was where we made all our money, our messaging services. 0:08:57.276 --> 0:09:01.236 So that year twenty eleven, we had more profit from 0:09:01.276 --> 0:09:04.996 our services business than Facebook had total revenue at that time. 0:09:05.116 --> 0:09:08.156 We're going to talk about BlackBerry, the belaguered smartphonemaker. 0:09:08.276 --> 0:09:11.196 BlackBerry CEO himself has admitted one of the reasons they're 0:09:11.196 --> 0:09:13.676 struggling is because they didn't innovate fast enough. 0:09:14.636 --> 0:09:18.076 I mean, givening like two do twelve prediction with the 0:09:18.116 --> 0:09:20.636 company that brings us the BlackBerry, and predicting that they 0:09:20.636 --> 0:09:22.476 were going to be on the bridge of bankruptcy. 0:09:23.316 --> 0:09:26.236 There were two sides to BlackBerry in those years. There 0:09:26.316 --> 0:09:30.476 was the phone that rectangular plastic block with the physical keyboard, 0:09:30.956 --> 0:09:35.516 and there was also a messaging function BlackBerry Messenger BBM. 0:09:36.116 --> 0:09:39.436 That was what Jim is calling this service business. Hardware 0:09:39.516 --> 0:09:42.716 and services were separate, and Jim thought that BlackBerry should 0:09:42.756 --> 0:09:45.396 get out of the physical phone business, which wasn't making 0:09:45.396 --> 0:09:49.316 any money anymore, and just be in the BlackBerry Messenger business. 0:09:49.956 --> 0:09:55.196 And so I'd spent a year and a half buying 0:09:55.276 --> 0:09:59.956 companies to avail a service, to make it an open service, 0:10:00.036 --> 0:10:03.196 and I'd spent time with the carriers, and they were 0:10:03.276 --> 0:10:06.676 going to launch it with SMS, call it SMS two 0:10:06.716 --> 0:10:09.076 dot zero, and it had storage and rich media phone. 0:10:09.996 --> 0:10:13.436 What he was imagining was turning BlackBerry Messenger into the 0:10:13.476 --> 0:10:16.556 backbone of the entire smartphone ecosystem. 0:10:16.836 --> 0:10:20.636 So it's effectively what we know of as social media 0:10:20.756 --> 0:10:26.916 right now. And there was a small emerging player called 0:10:26.996 --> 0:10:30.476 WhatsApp that worked cross platform, but we had a multiple 0:10:30.476 --> 0:10:34.636 of users as they did. And so yeah, I'd beavered 0:10:34.636 --> 0:10:41.036 away on it. And I thought the board was on side. 0:10:41.356 --> 0:10:43.876 I thought everyone was on side. 0:10:43.916 --> 0:10:47.116 Apple had just come out with the first iPhones. Jim 0:10:47.236 --> 0:10:49.956 was thinking that there was no way little BlackBerry, as 0:10:49.996 --> 0:10:52.796 fast as it was growing, could compete with Apple or 0:10:52.836 --> 0:10:56.996 giants like Samsung. But BlackBerry Messenger was a different matter. 0:10:57.636 --> 0:11:00.916 BlackBerry was dominant in that space and in the version 0:11:00.916 --> 0:11:04.316 of the world Jim imagined your texting and social media 0:11:04.596 --> 0:11:08.196 would come bundled with your wireless contract. So the minute 0:11:08.196 --> 0:11:10.876 you hooked up your new iPhone or Samsung phone to 0:11:10.916 --> 0:11:14.996 a wireless provider, you'd be using BBM. Stop there, and 0:11:15.076 --> 0:11:16.756 let's go back, and I want to make sure everyone 0:11:16.836 --> 0:11:21.676 understands what we're talking about here. So it's in twenty eleven. 0:11:22.716 --> 0:11:28.236 Many of us still have a BlackBerry, and there's two 0:11:28.276 --> 0:11:33.676 components here. There is the physical phone and there's also 0:11:34.756 --> 0:11:38.636 you're talking about a service that could live, a messaging 0:11:38.636 --> 0:11:43.036 service that could either live on a BlackBerry or live anywhere. Correct, Yeah, 0:11:43.436 --> 0:11:46.516 that would be the equivalent of WhatsApp became. 0:11:47.516 --> 0:11:52.316 Is that the math model Facebook and WhatsApp became. That's correct. 0:11:52.716 --> 0:11:57.276 What at the time was BBM effectively what social media. 0:11:58.316 --> 0:12:00.676 And the difference would be is it would be in 0:12:00.716 --> 0:12:04.076 your subscription plan as part of your texting rather than 0:12:04.796 --> 0:12:08.596 an ad supported social media service. Yeah. 0:12:08.876 --> 0:12:12.436 So that the goal here or the play was to 0:12:12.516 --> 0:12:21.436 make the BlackBerry services business the backbone of basically new media, 0:12:21.716 --> 0:12:22.636 of new social. 0:12:22.356 --> 0:12:26.356 Media, that's correct, and it would be embedded in your cell, 0:12:26.396 --> 0:12:29.716 your plan. And I worked with the carriers, the major 0:12:29.796 --> 0:12:34.996 CEOs throughout Europe and already had two of the big 0:12:35.036 --> 0:12:38.316 three committed in US. So all you need is enough 0:12:38.356 --> 0:12:41.156 to keep it going and it eventually tips. So yeah, 0:12:41.156 --> 0:12:43.956 people would have said, I'm migrating to an android. I' 0:12:44.076 --> 0:12:47.116 might degrading to an iOS. I'll just take my BBM 0:12:47.156 --> 0:12:50.116 with me. I'll maintain all my contacts, all my and 0:12:50.196 --> 0:12:55.476 you remember you had digital voiceover IP happening on those 0:12:55.516 --> 0:12:59.076 things at that time. You had pictures, you could store them, 0:12:59.076 --> 0:13:03.116 you established groups, you had status of delivery. All the 0:13:03.156 --> 0:13:06.796 things that were social media that was emerging at that time. 0:13:06.836 --> 0:13:08.636 We had that in the BBM. 0:13:09.196 --> 0:13:12.716 Well, how many users BBM users did you have at 0:13:12.796 --> 0:13:14.996 the beginning of twenty twelve, say, or the beginning of 0:13:14.996 --> 0:13:16.716 twenty eleven, eighty million? 0:13:16.916 --> 0:13:17.556 Eighty million. 0:13:17.796 --> 0:13:22.276 So you what would you put the probability of of 0:13:22.356 --> 0:13:26.236 BBM becoming the dominant becoming this kind of dominant player 0:13:26.356 --> 0:13:29.996 in the in the telecommunications world if you had gone 0:13:30.036 --> 0:13:32.276 that route, do you think you could have how big 0:13:32.316 --> 0:13:33.716 do you think you could have grown it? 0:13:34.796 --> 0:13:38.036 Well, it's the probability that it would have stayed a 0:13:38.076 --> 0:13:39.636 major force is one hundred percent. 0:13:41.196 --> 0:13:44.356 That's the vision, he pitches to the board. We're trapped 0:13:44.356 --> 0:13:47.636 in the maze along with everyone else. Here's the shortcut. 0:13:48.396 --> 0:13:48.836 Was he right? 0:13:49.356 --> 0:13:51.356 Of course he was. Jim's always right. 0:13:52.156 --> 0:13:56.676 So yeah, in the immortal words of the Yoki Barrow, 0:13:56.716 --> 0:13:59.236 when you reach the fork in the road, you got 0:13:59.236 --> 0:13:59.676 to take it. 0:14:02.676 --> 0:14:04.716 So you go tell me about the board meeting. You 0:14:05.356 --> 0:14:07.916 go to the board, You go to the board, and 0:14:07.956 --> 0:14:09.716 what happens. 0:14:10.276 --> 0:14:16.316 Well, they we'd had the board, had brought in consultants, 0:14:17.116 --> 0:14:22.836 and I was explaining this and presenting this and talking 0:14:22.876 --> 0:14:28.276 about the strategy, thinking they were with me, and really 0:14:28.316 --> 0:14:35.196 I was just speaking into just a vacuum of perceptivity 0:14:35.236 --> 0:14:36.076 and interest to it. 0:14:36.476 --> 0:14:37.436 Why weren't they with you? 0:14:39.276 --> 0:14:42.996 I think it was too radical what I was trying 0:14:42.996 --> 0:14:47.396 to do. I'd not spent near enough time with them 0:14:47.996 --> 0:14:53.876 explaining it and debating it, which is a lesson I learned. 0:14:54.836 --> 0:15:00.036 And you've really driven the company strategies for twenty years 0:15:00.436 --> 0:15:05.116 to a twenty billion dollar company, and you think they'll 0:15:05.236 --> 0:15:06.796 just follow you. 0:15:08.196 --> 0:15:11.596 They say, what are you talking about? We're a company 0:15:11.596 --> 0:15:15.836 that makes phones. An SMS two point zero. Jim's vision 0:15:15.916 --> 0:15:19.316 for the next stage of BlackBerry is killed just a 0:15:19.316 --> 0:15:21.276 few weeks before it was supposed to launch. 0:15:22.356 --> 0:15:26.396 I wasn't consulted. I didn't know it was happening. It 0:15:26.476 --> 0:15:31.876 was just on the agenda, presented and decided and I 0:15:31.956 --> 0:15:35.436 called the lead director after that and I said, what 0:15:35.436 --> 0:15:37.756 what's going on here? This will kill the company? And 0:15:37.756 --> 0:15:43.316 they say, the decisions made and so I resigned from 0:15:43.356 --> 0:15:45.996 the board and sold my shares. The remaining shares at 0:15:45.996 --> 0:15:49.476 that time, and they were extremely confident for a year 0:15:49.516 --> 0:15:53.596 and a half, marketing campaigns, super Bowl ads, lots of 0:15:54.036 --> 0:15:58.396 declarations of its future and its success and it's going 0:15:58.436 --> 0:16:00.876 to be great. And there was just one board member 0:16:00.876 --> 0:16:03.276 who was from the tech industry and from the telecom 0:16:03.316 --> 0:16:07.956 industry who called me and said, there's nothing I can 0:16:07.996 --> 0:16:12.876 do to stop it. This is Mattess. Yeah, And it 0:16:12.916 --> 0:16:16.676 was just jaw on the floor. I just never experienced 0:16:16.716 --> 0:16:21.276 anything like that, and I didn't see it coming. And 0:16:21.436 --> 0:16:25.796 how could somebody be so blind to something like that 0:16:26.476 --> 0:16:34.276 when it's such a consequential decision. We'll be right back. 0:16:43.316 --> 0:16:45.836 Jim and I both went to Trinity College at the 0:16:45.916 --> 0:16:49.916 University of Toronto, which was and still is the smallest 0:16:50.436 --> 0:16:52.636 and the snobbiest of the colleges that make up the 0:16:52.716 --> 0:16:55.476 University of Toronto. I met Jim in the first few 0:16:55.516 --> 0:16:59.036 weeks of freshman year. I had just turned seventeen. I 0:16:59.156 --> 0:17:01.636 just had eye surgery. So I had a huge scarveting 0:17:01.636 --> 0:17:04.556 down the side of my face, a massive afro, lots 0:17:04.596 --> 0:17:07.476 of acne, maybe one hundred and ten pounds, and all 0:17:07.476 --> 0:17:10.476 the wrong clothes. I was from a small town way 0:17:10.476 --> 0:17:13.436 off in the countryside. Here I was at swanky Trinity, 0:17:13.796 --> 0:17:16.236 and I had no idea how the fancy kids dressed 0:17:16.676 --> 0:17:19.156 and no money to do anything about it. I had 0:17:19.156 --> 0:17:21.716 a moment of truth, I need to figure out how 0:17:21.756 --> 0:17:24.676 to fit in. Jim lived across the hall from me. 0:17:25.236 --> 0:17:28.636 He taught me how to play backgammon. I played endless 0:17:28.676 --> 0:17:31.156 games at touch football with him. I had a beloved 0:17:31.236 --> 0:17:33.956 jade tree that I called William F. Buckley, and he 0:17:34.076 --> 0:17:36.636 used to steal Buckley from my room and put him 0:17:36.636 --> 0:17:40.276 in some perilous place. And I think the reason that 0:17:40.356 --> 0:17:43.076 I felt a certain affinity with Jim is that I 0:17:43.156 --> 0:17:47.396 since he shared my urgency about fitting in, only it 0:17:47.476 --> 0:17:49.396 was going to be much harder for him than me. 0:17:50.116 --> 0:17:54.236 First of all, he was from Peterborough. Nobody was from Peterborough. 0:17:54.516 --> 0:17:58.156 He had further to climb. And second, he was really 0:17:58.196 --> 0:18:01.716 really ambitious. I mean I was ambitious, but not like Jim. 0:18:02.476 --> 0:18:07.516 Jim wanted it more. Do you remember what was it 0:18:07.636 --> 0:18:13.516 like when you came to university. What's your account of 0:18:13.556 --> 0:18:14.956 your kind of first year at Trinity. 0:18:15.396 --> 0:18:18.916 Ah, well, it was very intimidating. I found these people 0:18:18.956 --> 0:18:23.676 from tremendous privilege and just very very intimidating and meeting 0:18:23.716 --> 0:18:27.476 people with stellar backgrounds. I'd never been on an airplane, 0:18:27.716 --> 0:18:33.676 I've never been outside of Ontario. Very modest background. Yeah, 0:18:33.756 --> 0:18:36.876 just tremendously intimidating. I mean, I was smart, but then 0:18:36.916 --> 0:18:40.636 you'd see Robertson Davies at high table and sometimes his 0:18:40.756 --> 0:18:44.596 friend north of Fry there and it's like, con Dorothy, 0:18:44.676 --> 0:18:46.076 this is not Kansas anymore. 0:18:47.356 --> 0:18:50.396 Just so you know, Robertson Davies and north of Fry 0:18:50.516 --> 0:18:53.796 were two of the biggest Canadian intellectual celebrities of that era, 0:18:54.276 --> 0:18:56.996 and we'd see them out our window walking through the 0:18:56.996 --> 0:19:01.236 college quadrangle God out for a stroll. For those of 0:19:01.316 --> 0:19:05.716 us from the sticks, this seemed unbelievable. So we just 0:19:05.796 --> 0:19:09.996 to remember you and I in You were across the 0:19:09.996 --> 0:19:13.436 hall in our second year, and I remember there were 0:19:13.636 --> 0:19:15.916 how many people were our floor? Thirteen people on our 0:19:15.956 --> 0:19:18.796 floor or something like that. I remember telling my dad, 0:19:18.836 --> 0:19:22.276 I Max Max Max maybe twelve. It was like private 0:19:22.276 --> 0:19:26.356 school kids and kids who went up for Canada College, 0:19:26.396 --> 0:19:30.476 you know, and kids who went to it was Did 0:19:30.516 --> 0:19:36.836 you feel like you had to work harder to prove 0:19:36.876 --> 0:19:39.116 yourself in that world? What was yours? 0:19:39.396 --> 0:19:42.436 Yeah? Well, I worked all the time as a kid. 0:19:42.476 --> 0:19:44.876 I had five or six paper roots, four or five 0:19:44.996 --> 0:19:48.116 paper roots almost all the time. And then I got 0:19:48.156 --> 0:19:50.716 summer and winter jobs from grade and seven on. I 0:19:50.756 --> 0:19:53.516 bought my own clothes. I still to this day have 0:19:53.676 --> 0:19:57.796 my own pants and darn socks. Yeah, I can darn 0:19:57.876 --> 0:19:59.836 socks with the best of them. I sew my own 0:19:59.836 --> 0:20:01.996 buttons on because you learn how to do it. And 0:20:02.116 --> 0:20:04.636 I'll sit there, watch the news and sew up my 0:20:04.676 --> 0:20:07.516 clothes all the time. It's very, very funny. I just 0:20:07.636 --> 0:20:10.956 enjoy sewing. And but I always so I had my 0:20:10.996 --> 0:20:16.036 own clothes. I stitched in my shirts, I darn socks. Yeah, 0:20:16.036 --> 0:20:18.316 it's a funny thing, right. And when something rips, I'll 0:20:19.196 --> 0:20:20.636 you know, my wife says, why don't you buy a 0:20:20.676 --> 0:20:23.716 new pair sweatpants and sid well, I can fix those, 0:20:23.916 --> 0:20:26.036 and it's very funny. So I'll sit there with a 0:20:26.036 --> 0:20:30.516 big thing and do a catch stitch on it, and yeah, 0:20:30.596 --> 0:20:32.156 and then and so you work all the time, and 0:20:32.196 --> 0:20:35.356 then you go to school and you you know, I 0:20:35.396 --> 0:20:37.476 would I would do the math club, and I'd go 0:20:37.516 --> 0:20:40.836 to basketball, and then I'd go out to a party, 0:20:40.876 --> 0:20:43.236 and then I'd work all weekend. So yeah, I just 0:20:43.396 --> 0:20:45.036 I just I work every day. 0:20:45.916 --> 0:20:48.876 Jim went off to Harvard Business School right after graduation. 0:20:49.676 --> 0:20:52.436 He could have gotten a job anywhere, but he chose Rim, 0:20:52.996 --> 0:20:55.636 right near where I grew up in Waterloo, Ontario. And 0:20:55.796 --> 0:20:57.636 RIM's rise was swift. 0:20:58.876 --> 0:21:06.356 It's important to understand that that Apple launched the iPhone 0:21:06.636 --> 0:21:12.276 in January two thousand and seven, and in response there 0:21:12.316 --> 0:21:15.476 was a very aggressive selling and marketing and device function. 0:21:16.476 --> 0:21:22.476 Apple supercharged the smartphone category the same way Starbucks supercharged cappuccinos, 0:21:22.836 --> 0:21:25.836 and in the beginning, Rim was able to ride that wave. 0:21:27.036 --> 0:21:30.076 So when they launched in two thousand and seven, we 0:21:30.076 --> 0:21:32.676 were three billion sales. The next year we grew to six. 0:21:33.236 --> 0:21:35.196 The next year we grew to eleven billion. The next 0:21:35.276 --> 0:21:38.236 year we grew to fifteen. The next year we grew 0:21:38.236 --> 0:21:41.516 to twenty billion. Fortune had us in the middle of 0:21:41.516 --> 0:21:44.236 that time the fastest growing company in the world. Smarter 0:21:44.636 --> 0:21:48.636 and sleeker now with real time turn by turn GPS navigation. 0:21:49.596 --> 0:21:52.956 It has the intelligence you require with the beauty you desire, 0:21:53.236 --> 0:21:54.756 the all new BlackBerry curve. 0:21:55.356 --> 0:21:58.076 I would drive through Waterloo in those years and see 0:21:58.156 --> 0:22:01.836 building after building after building with a big RIM logo 0:22:01.916 --> 0:22:05.316 on it. Even today, my mom lives across the street 0:22:05.316 --> 0:22:08.436 from a giant recreational center donated to the city by 0:22:08.516 --> 0:22:11.556 Rim back in now that era Rim Park. It is 0:22:11.636 --> 0:22:14.156 impossible not to have a certain amount of pride and 0:22:14.196 --> 0:22:16.796 affection for the guy who used to steal your jade 0:22:16.836 --> 0:22:20.636 tree and ended up a billionaire. And then at the 0:22:20.756 --> 0:22:24.436 very height of BlackBerry's success, Jim wanted to go left 0:22:24.916 --> 0:22:28.836 and the board of directors wanted to go right. But Jim, 0:22:28.916 --> 0:22:32.116 b this is a good moment for a reflection here, 0:22:32.876 --> 0:22:35.916 how are they not with you? You've built this thing, 0:22:36.716 --> 0:22:42.436 You've been this strategic force behind this extraordinary company. You're 0:22:43.316 --> 0:22:46.556 you know, the device is in the hands of President 0:22:46.556 --> 0:22:50.116 of the United States. I mean, like, how how is 0:22:50.116 --> 0:22:52.596 it that they could look at that, they would see 0:22:52.596 --> 0:22:54.716 what you had done for the company and look at 0:22:54.876 --> 0:22:56.716 come to this crucial fork in the road, and not 0:22:56.796 --> 0:22:59.836 even they don't even seem interested in your option. 0:23:02.036 --> 0:23:05.796 Yeah, Well, Mike and the new CEO Thorston didn't. They 0:23:05.796 --> 0:23:12.956 were hardware people, and Mike did say right in the 0:23:13.076 --> 0:23:15.156 end in a meeting before the board meeting, if we 0:23:15.276 --> 0:23:19.316 do this, it'll kill hardware. And I said, hardware is 0:23:19.356 --> 0:23:24.036 already dead. And and it's like I told him his 0:23:24.156 --> 0:23:25.556 dog just got hit by a car. 0:23:26.876 --> 0:23:30.316 When you look at your what you did, and where 0:23:30.316 --> 0:23:31.516 do you think the mistake lay? 0:23:32.436 --> 0:23:35.876 I think it's many things that you're touching on. One is, 0:23:36.076 --> 0:23:38.356 for sure, you're busy because you're flying around the world 0:23:38.396 --> 0:23:44.876 trying to enact this shift. I underestimated how a strategic 0:23:44.916 --> 0:23:53.316 shift is hard for people. You'd much rather have a continuum. Yeah, 0:23:53.556 --> 0:23:58.916 more time, for sure, more more preparation, more persuasion. I 0:24:00.276 --> 0:24:05.476 did not spend the time I needed to. I'd always 0:24:05.676 --> 0:24:09.636 driven the decisions, and they'd always been yes, of course, 0:24:09.676 --> 0:24:13.636 we'll do what I'm pushing. But ultimately the board held 0:24:13.676 --> 0:24:18.956 the power. So underestimated their power, underestimated how they were 0:24:18.996 --> 0:24:20.596 sold in their way of thinking. 0:24:20.956 --> 0:24:24.036 If we cut to the bottom line, here is you 0:24:24.036 --> 0:24:28.796 you have a notion of where the company's future lies, 0:24:29.396 --> 0:24:32.556 which turns out in retrospect to be accurate. Right, yours 0:24:32.676 --> 0:24:38.556 was the only path. There was no path, the right 0:24:38.556 --> 0:24:40.316 word fork in the road was only going to lead 0:24:40.356 --> 0:24:42.836 to disaster. There was no path that BlackBerry was going 0:24:42.876 --> 0:24:44.836 to emerge a winner by focusing on hardware. 0:24:44.916 --> 0:24:46.676 Yeah, there's no there's no debate on that now. 0:24:46.796 --> 0:24:50.276 Yeah, there was at least a decent probability it could 0:24:50.316 --> 0:24:52.236 have come out on top or at least very healthy 0:24:52.276 --> 0:24:55.276 in the other path you had. You came up with 0:24:55.316 --> 0:24:59.476 this idea, You had an enormous amount of intellectual confidence 0:24:59.516 --> 0:25:06.556