1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,316 --> 00:00:22,956 Speaker 2: It dawns on all of us at some point before 3 00:00:23,076 --> 00:00:27,396 Speaker 2: adolescence that there is something called smart, and it is 4 00:00:27,636 --> 00:00:30,836 Speaker 2: really rare. Only a small number of people are smart. 5 00:00:31,356 --> 00:00:34,076 Speaker 2: And then a few years later you have an even 6 00:00:34,116 --> 00:00:38,316 Speaker 2: more important realization, which is that smart comes in many 7 00:00:38,396 --> 00:00:43,156 Speaker 2: different varieties. I feel I spent my adolescence cataloging all 8 00:00:43,156 --> 00:00:46,236 Speaker 2: the varieties of smart. There was my high school friend 9 00:00:46,356 --> 00:00:48,956 Speaker 2: who had a mind that was a giant sponge that 10 00:00:48,996 --> 00:00:51,796 Speaker 2: could soak up what seemed like an infinite amount of knowledge. 11 00:00:52,236 --> 00:00:54,156 Speaker 2: Then I got to college, I met a guy who's 12 00:00:54,156 --> 00:00:58,996 Speaker 2: thinking seemed effortless. He could be distracted or procrastinating, or 13 00:00:59,076 --> 00:01:01,756 Speaker 2: dancing at a party, it didn't matter. Somewhere in a 14 00:01:01,796 --> 00:01:04,436 Speaker 2: back room in his brain was a giant computer that 15 00:01:04,596 --> 00:01:09,316 Speaker 2: just quietly hummed along, solving one problem after another. Oh 16 00:01:09,396 --> 00:01:11,196 Speaker 2: then I had a friend who to mind that she'd 17 00:01:11,196 --> 00:01:14,796 Speaker 2: attached to a giant V eight with like eight hundred horsepower. 18 00:01:15,316 --> 00:01:18,596 Speaker 2: I'd never seen smart attached to energy like that before. 19 00:01:19,676 --> 00:01:22,036 Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time in college working on 20 00:01:22,076 --> 00:01:24,956 Speaker 2: my taxonomy of smart, and along the way I had 21 00:01:24,956 --> 00:01:30,476 Speaker 2: a third realization that every kind of exceptional intelligence has 22 00:01:30,516 --> 00:01:34,036 Speaker 2: a downside, a price that person had to pay for 23 00:01:34,156 --> 00:01:37,116 Speaker 2: being one of the chosen few. And every time I 24 00:01:37,116 --> 00:01:39,396 Speaker 2: think of that third role, I think of my old 25 00:01:39,436 --> 00:01:41,036 Speaker 2: college friend Jim Balsley. 26 00:01:43,756 --> 00:01:48,676 Speaker 1: My mistake in naivety was to think that people were 27 00:01:48,756 --> 00:01:52,196 Speaker 1: with me. So you're flying around the world, You're trying 28 00:01:52,196 --> 00:01:56,196 Speaker 1: to get people on side, and you think they're on side, 29 00:01:56,276 --> 00:02:00,036 Speaker 1: but they're not, and you get blindsided. 30 00:02:03,356 --> 00:02:06,396 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 31 00:02:06,676 --> 00:02:10,916 Speaker 2: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 32 00:02:10,956 --> 00:02:14,836 Speaker 2: the fourth in our series on mistakes, inspired by Michael 33 00:02:14,836 --> 00:02:18,716 Speaker 2: Linton and Josh Steiner's book From Mistakes to Meaning, And 34 00:02:18,836 --> 00:02:21,716 Speaker 2: this story is about the big mistake, the change the 35 00:02:21,756 --> 00:02:25,036 Speaker 2: life of my old college friend Jim, who I will say, 36 00:02:25,036 --> 00:02:28,556 Speaker 2: without reservation, is possessed of one of the most remarkable 37 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:31,996 Speaker 2: minds I have ever met, and paid a price for it. 38 00:02:36,996 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 2: What was it like for you growing up? You grew 39 00:02:41,716 --> 00:02:44,596 Speaker 2: up in Peterborough, Yes, I did. And you went to 40 00:02:45,436 --> 00:02:46,716 Speaker 2: public high school in Peterborough. 41 00:02:47,316 --> 00:02:47,636 Speaker 1: Yes. 42 00:02:48,596 --> 00:02:52,716 Speaker 2: Peterborough, For those unfamiliar with southern Ontario is just over 43 00:02:52,716 --> 00:02:55,476 Speaker 2: an hour east and north of Toronto. It is to 44 00:02:55,476 --> 00:02:58,796 Speaker 2: Toronto roughly. What I don't know Poughkeepsie is to New 45 00:02:58,876 --> 00:02:59,356 Speaker 2: York City. 46 00:03:00,156 --> 00:03:02,196 Speaker 1: My dad was a tradesman, My mom was a homemaker. 47 00:03:03,716 --> 00:03:05,996 Speaker 2: Your high school, I suspect was a lot like my 48 00:03:06,116 --> 00:03:12,116 Speaker 2: high school. We're not talking about Exeter No, although actually 49 00:03:12,356 --> 00:03:14,436 Speaker 2: I don't mean to diss it, because I got an 50 00:03:14,476 --> 00:03:17,956 Speaker 2: amazing education from fabulous teachers. So what was it like 51 00:03:19,596 --> 00:03:23,276 Speaker 2: to be you were the smart kid in high school? 52 00:03:24,276 --> 00:03:24,636 Speaker 1: Yes? 53 00:03:24,916 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 2: What was that like? 54 00:03:29,516 --> 00:03:31,236 Speaker 1: I don't think they know what to do with you, 55 00:03:33,236 --> 00:03:36,836 Speaker 1: So I think you're just I think there's a premium 56 00:03:36,876 --> 00:03:40,356 Speaker 1: on compliance. I think we've learned now that high energy 57 00:03:40,436 --> 00:03:43,276 Speaker 1: kids need to run around and when they're young, until 58 00:03:43,276 --> 00:03:45,836 Speaker 1: they're tired. But kind of making them sitting at a 59 00:03:45,876 --> 00:03:49,756 Speaker 1: desk all day is when they're young, it's really really difficult. 60 00:03:50,356 --> 00:03:53,716 Speaker 1: Are you talking about yourself? Yes, very much so. And 61 00:03:54,316 --> 00:03:58,316 Speaker 1: it was just incredibly boring and you just look at 62 00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:00,196 Speaker 1: the clock and count minutes and. 63 00:04:00,516 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, did you get in trouble in high school? 64 00:04:04,036 --> 00:04:06,436 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, a few times. One time, when I was 65 00:04:06,436 --> 00:04:11,916 Speaker 1: in grade seven, a teacher did a long formula across 66 00:04:11,996 --> 00:04:15,596 Speaker 1: three or four boards and he said, where did I 67 00:04:15,636 --> 00:04:17,676 Speaker 1: go wrong? And from the back of the class, I said, 68 00:04:17,676 --> 00:04:24,396 Speaker 1: when you were born? And Malcolm and he took me 69 00:04:24,436 --> 00:04:26,036 Speaker 1: out of the class and he held me up by 70 00:04:26,076 --> 00:04:27,716 Speaker 1: the scruff of the neck and I was my fever 71 00:04:27,836 --> 00:04:30,316 Speaker 1: off the ground against a locker, and he had me 72 00:04:30,396 --> 00:04:32,316 Speaker 1: taken out of the math class. And I was just 73 00:04:33,156 --> 00:04:37,356 Speaker 1: it seemed funny at the time. And then and then 74 00:04:37,436 --> 00:04:40,756 Speaker 1: a couple months later there was there was a provincial 75 00:04:40,756 --> 00:04:43,716 Speaker 1: math contest for you know, the ten million people in Ontario, 76 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:48,916 Speaker 1: and as a grade seven I came first in grade 77 00:04:48,956 --> 00:04:50,196 Speaker 1: seven and eighths in Ontario. 78 00:04:50,876 --> 00:04:53,716 Speaker 2: He was the best math student in the entire province, 79 00:04:54,116 --> 00:04:57,116 Speaker 2: but he wasn't allowed in his own math class. What 80 00:04:57,196 --> 00:04:58,756 Speaker 2: did your parents make of you? 81 00:05:00,996 --> 00:05:04,956 Speaker 1: When I was four years old, they took me to 82 00:05:05,116 --> 00:05:10,316 Speaker 1: some child psychologist, which was they didn't know what to do. 83 00:05:10,956 --> 00:05:13,436 Speaker 2: What were you doing for that led your parents to 84 00:05:13,476 --> 00:05:14,836 Speaker 2: take you to a child psychologist? 85 00:05:15,356 --> 00:05:18,956 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. We're we're kind of 86 00:05:18,996 --> 00:05:22,636 Speaker 1: Presbyterian southern Ontario, so you don't really talk a lot, 87 00:05:23,156 --> 00:05:26,396 Speaker 1: you don't sort of you just sort of carry on 88 00:05:26,516 --> 00:05:30,116 Speaker 1: and so you don't it's not like this rich unpacking 89 00:05:30,196 --> 00:05:34,556 Speaker 1: of psychologists kids or something like that. Everybody's just, you know, 90 00:05:34,596 --> 00:05:37,036 Speaker 1: it's kind of go play outside and you know, try 91 00:05:37,236 --> 00:05:39,076 Speaker 1: try to make it home for a dinner kind of thing. Right. 92 00:05:39,636 --> 00:05:41,756 Speaker 1: It was a very different era, very different era. 93 00:05:42,556 --> 00:05:45,716 Speaker 2: In my taxonomy of smart, Jim has a whole category 94 00:05:45,716 --> 00:05:48,916 Speaker 2: to himself. I don't mean this in a derogatory way, 95 00:05:49,116 --> 00:05:52,876 Speaker 2: but Jim has cunning. My brain I was beginning to 96 00:05:52,956 --> 00:05:55,836 Speaker 2: understand at that time likes to take the long way home. 97 00:05:56,316 --> 00:06:00,396 Speaker 2: Jim only took shortcuts if life was amazed. Most of 98 00:06:00,476 --> 00:06:03,716 Speaker 2: us stumble along, retracing our steps from one dead end 99 00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:06,036 Speaker 2: to another dead end until we finally get to the 100 00:06:06,116 --> 00:06:10,396 Speaker 2: other side. Jim would see the right path instantly, or 101 00:06:10,516 --> 00:06:13,636 Speaker 2: more accurately. He would recognize that there's actually a gap 102 00:06:13,676 --> 00:06:15,916 Speaker 2: in the hedge right at the start, which no one 103 00:06:15,916 --> 00:06:19,036 Speaker 2: had ever noticed before, with a straight shot to the finish, 104 00:06:19,156 --> 00:06:21,476 Speaker 2: and he'd just cut through there. And by the time 105 00:06:21,516 --> 00:06:23,596 Speaker 2: the rest of us stumbled to the end, he had 106 00:06:23,636 --> 00:06:27,356 Speaker 2: won the trophy, gone home, changed, and was having a beer. 107 00:06:27,796 --> 00:06:32,556 Speaker 2: This is Canada, remember. Not long after college, Jim met 108 00:06:32,636 --> 00:06:35,796 Speaker 2: an engineer named Mike Lazaritas who had a little company 109 00:06:35,836 --> 00:06:39,356 Speaker 2: called Research in Motion RIM, as it was known. Jim 110 00:06:39,436 --> 00:06:42,716 Speaker 2: becomes co CEO, and to the surprise of absolutely no 111 00:06:42,756 --> 00:06:45,956 Speaker 2: one who knew him, builds RIM into a multi billion 112 00:06:45,996 --> 00:06:50,756 Speaker 2: dollar juggernaut. Remember fifteen years ago when everyone had a BlackBerry, 113 00:06:51,116 --> 00:06:56,196 Speaker 2: first real smartphone with those clickety clackety buttons. That was Jim, 114 00:06:56,876 --> 00:07:00,276 Speaker 2: So why don't you use a BlackBerry anymore? In the 115 00:07:00,316 --> 00:07:03,276 Speaker 2: business school case studies about the fall of BlackBerry, there 116 00:07:03,276 --> 00:07:07,276 Speaker 2: are pages and pages on the rapidly shifting smartphone landscape 117 00:07:07,276 --> 00:07:12,236 Speaker 2: of the early oughts, miscalculations, the cloud of Apple, all 118 00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:14,956 Speaker 2: the things that business goal case studies like to dwell on. 119 00:07:15,756 --> 00:07:19,036 Speaker 2: But I think there's a simpler explanation. I think you 120 00:07:19,076 --> 00:07:24,076 Speaker 2: need to understand something about my old friend Jim set 121 00:07:24,076 --> 00:07:24,836 Speaker 2: the stage for me. 122 00:07:26,636 --> 00:07:33,716 Speaker 1: Sure, it's interesting because when you talk about mistakes, and 123 00:07:34,036 --> 00:07:39,876 Speaker 1: I do think the biggest mistake in my career when 124 00:07:39,916 --> 00:07:43,676 Speaker 1: I look back with Rim, we had a fork in 125 00:07:43,716 --> 00:07:48,636 Speaker 1: the road and I mismanaged the board relationship at a 126 00:07:48,676 --> 00:07:52,476 Speaker 1: time where I wanted to go left and they decided 127 00:07:52,476 --> 00:07:57,236 Speaker 1: to go right. And that not only changed the trajectory 128 00:07:57,276 --> 00:08:00,436 Speaker 1: of the company, it changed the trajectory of the global 129 00:08:00,436 --> 00:08:18,316 Speaker 1: technology industry. 130 00:08:18,476 --> 00:08:21,036 Speaker 2: So tell me what do you mean by you wanted 131 00:08:21,036 --> 00:08:22,596 Speaker 2: to go left and they wanted to go right? And 132 00:08:22,996 --> 00:08:23,716 Speaker 2: what we're talking about? 133 00:08:23,756 --> 00:08:23,836 Speaker 1: What? 134 00:08:23,876 --> 00:08:26,236 Speaker 2: First of all, let's date this what ear are we 135 00:08:26,236 --> 00:08:26,876 Speaker 2: talking about. 136 00:08:27,716 --> 00:08:35,396 Speaker 1: We're talking twenty eleven, and a couple things were going on. 137 00:08:35,396 --> 00:08:39,076 Speaker 1: One our hardware business had grown a lot, but it 138 00:08:39,116 --> 00:08:46,316 Speaker 1: was under pressure, huge pressure, and there were new operating systems, 139 00:08:46,356 --> 00:08:49,556 Speaker 1: one from Apple and one from Google. They were putting 140 00:08:49,596 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 1: tremendous pressure on our hardware sales. But our services business 141 00:08:54,916 --> 00:08:57,236 Speaker 1: was where we made all our money, our messaging services. 142 00:08:57,276 --> 00:09:01,236 Speaker 1: So that year twenty eleven, we had more profit from 143 00:09:01,276 --> 00:09:04,996 Speaker 1: our services business than Facebook had total revenue at that time. 144 00:09:05,116 --> 00:09:08,156 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about BlackBerry, the belaguered smartphonemaker. 145 00:09:08,276 --> 00:09:11,196 Speaker 2: BlackBerry CEO himself has admitted one of the reasons they're 146 00:09:11,196 --> 00:09:13,676 Speaker 2: struggling is because they didn't innovate fast enough. 147 00:09:14,636 --> 00:09:18,076 Speaker 1: I mean, givening like two do twelve prediction with the 148 00:09:18,116 --> 00:09:20,636 Speaker 1: company that brings us the BlackBerry, and predicting that they 149 00:09:20,636 --> 00:09:22,476 Speaker 1: were going to be on the bridge of bankruptcy. 150 00:09:23,316 --> 00:09:26,236 Speaker 2: There were two sides to BlackBerry in those years. There 151 00:09:26,316 --> 00:09:30,476 Speaker 2: was the phone that rectangular plastic block with the physical keyboard, 152 00:09:30,956 --> 00:09:35,516 Speaker 2: and there was also a messaging function BlackBerry Messenger BBM. 153 00:09:36,116 --> 00:09:39,436 Speaker 2: That was what Jim is calling this service business. Hardware 154 00:09:39,516 --> 00:09:42,716 Speaker 2: and services were separate, and Jim thought that BlackBerry should 155 00:09:42,756 --> 00:09:45,396 Speaker 2: get out of the physical phone business, which wasn't making 156 00:09:45,396 --> 00:09:49,316 Speaker 2: any money anymore, and just be in the BlackBerry Messenger business. 157 00:09:49,956 --> 00:09:55,196 Speaker 1: And so I'd spent a year and a half buying 158 00:09:55,276 --> 00:09:59,956 Speaker 1: companies to avail a service, to make it an open service, 159 00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:03,196 Speaker 1: and I'd spent time with the carriers, and they were 160 00:10:03,276 --> 00:10:06,676 Speaker 1: going to launch it with SMS, call it SMS two 161 00:10:06,716 --> 00:10:09,076 Speaker 1: dot zero, and it had storage and rich media phone. 162 00:10:09,996 --> 00:10:13,436 Speaker 2: What he was imagining was turning BlackBerry Messenger into the 163 00:10:13,476 --> 00:10:16,556 Speaker 2: backbone of the entire smartphone ecosystem. 164 00:10:16,836 --> 00:10:20,636 Speaker 1: So it's effectively what we know of as social media 165 00:10:20,756 --> 00:10:26,916 Speaker 1: right now. And there was a small emerging player called 166 00:10:26,996 --> 00:10:30,476 Speaker 1: WhatsApp that worked cross platform, but we had a multiple 167 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:34,636 Speaker 1: of users as they did. And so yeah, I'd beavered 168 00:10:34,636 --> 00:10:41,036 Speaker 1: away on it. And I thought the board was on side. 169 00:10:41,356 --> 00:10:43,876 Speaker 1: I thought everyone was on side. 170 00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:47,116 Speaker 2: Apple had just come out with the first iPhones. Jim 171 00:10:47,236 --> 00:10:49,956 Speaker 2: was thinking that there was no way little BlackBerry, as 172 00:10:49,996 --> 00:10:52,796 Speaker 2: fast as it was growing, could compete with Apple or 173 00:10:52,836 --> 00:10:56,996 Speaker 2: giants like Samsung. But BlackBerry Messenger was a different matter. 174 00:10:57,636 --> 00:11:00,916 Speaker 2: BlackBerry was dominant in that space and in the version 175 00:11:00,916 --> 00:11:04,316 Speaker 2: of the world Jim imagined your texting and social media 176 00:11:04,596 --> 00:11:08,196 Speaker 2: would come bundled with your wireless contract. So the minute 177 00:11:08,196 --> 00:11:10,876 Speaker 2: you hooked up your new iPhone or Samsung phone to 178 00:11:10,916 --> 00:11:14,996 Speaker 2: a wireless provider, you'd be using BBM. Stop there, and 179 00:11:15,076 --> 00:11:16,756 Speaker 2: let's go back, and I want to make sure everyone 180 00:11:16,836 --> 00:11:21,676 Speaker 2: understands what we're talking about here. So it's in twenty eleven. 181 00:11:22,716 --> 00:11:28,236 Speaker 2: Many of us still have a BlackBerry, and there's two 182 00:11:28,276 --> 00:11:33,676 Speaker 2: components here. There is the physical phone and there's also 183 00:11:34,756 --> 00:11:38,636 Speaker 2: you're talking about a service that could live, a messaging 184 00:11:38,636 --> 00:11:43,036 Speaker 2: service that could either live on a BlackBerry or live anywhere. Correct, Yeah, 185 00:11:43,436 --> 00:11:46,516 Speaker 2: that would be the equivalent of WhatsApp became. 186 00:11:47,516 --> 00:11:52,316 Speaker 1: Is that the math model Facebook and WhatsApp became. That's correct. 187 00:11:52,716 --> 00:11:57,276 Speaker 1: What at the time was BBM effectively what social media. 188 00:11:58,316 --> 00:12:00,676 Speaker 1: And the difference would be is it would be in 189 00:12:00,716 --> 00:12:04,076 Speaker 1: your subscription plan as part of your texting rather than 190 00:12:04,796 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 1: an ad supported social media service. Yeah. 191 00:12:08,876 --> 00:12:12,436 Speaker 2: So that the goal here or the play was to 192 00:12:12,516 --> 00:12:21,436 Speaker 2: make the BlackBerry services business the backbone of basically new media, 193 00:12:21,716 --> 00:12:22,636 Speaker 2: of new social. 194 00:12:22,356 --> 00:12:26,356 Speaker 1: Media, that's correct, and it would be embedded in your cell, 195 00:12:26,396 --> 00:12:29,716 Speaker 1: your plan. And I worked with the carriers, the major 196 00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:34,996 Speaker 1: CEOs throughout Europe and already had two of the big 197 00:12:35,036 --> 00:12:38,316 Speaker 1: three committed in US. So all you need is enough 198 00:12:38,356 --> 00:12:41,156 Speaker 1: to keep it going and it eventually tips. So yeah, 199 00:12:41,156 --> 00:12:43,956 Speaker 1: people would have said, I'm migrating to an android. I' 200 00:12:44,076 --> 00:12:47,116 Speaker 1: might degrading to an iOS. I'll just take my BBM 201 00:12:47,156 --> 00:12:50,116 Speaker 1: with me. I'll maintain all my contacts, all my and 202 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:55,476 Speaker 1: you remember you had digital voiceover IP happening on those 203 00:12:55,516 --> 00:12:59,076 Speaker 1: things at that time. You had pictures, you could store them, 204 00:12:59,076 --> 00:13:03,116 Speaker 1: you established groups, you had status of delivery. All the 205 00:13:03,156 --> 00:13:06,796 Speaker 1: things that were social media that was emerging at that time. 206 00:13:06,836 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 1: We had that in the BBM. 207 00:13:09,196 --> 00:13:12,716 Speaker 2: Well, how many users BBM users did you have at 208 00:13:12,796 --> 00:13:14,996 Speaker 2: the beginning of twenty twelve, say, or the beginning of 209 00:13:14,996 --> 00:13:16,716 Speaker 2: twenty eleven, eighty million? 210 00:13:16,916 --> 00:13:17,556 Speaker 1: Eighty million. 211 00:13:17,796 --> 00:13:22,276 Speaker 2: So you what would you put the probability of of 212 00:13:22,356 --> 00:13:26,236 Speaker 2: BBM becoming the dominant becoming this kind of dominant player 213 00:13:26,356 --> 00:13:29,996 Speaker 2: in the in the telecommunications world if you had gone 214 00:13:30,036 --> 00:13:32,276 Speaker 2: that route, do you think you could have how big 215 00:13:32,316 --> 00:13:33,716 Speaker 2: do you think you could have grown it? 216 00:13:34,796 --> 00:13:38,036 Speaker 1: Well, it's the probability that it would have stayed a 217 00:13:38,076 --> 00:13:39,636 Speaker 1: major force is one hundred percent. 218 00:13:41,196 --> 00:13:44,356 Speaker 2: That's the vision, he pitches to the board. We're trapped 219 00:13:44,356 --> 00:13:47,636 Speaker 2: in the maze along with everyone else. Here's the shortcut. 220 00:13:48,396 --> 00:13:48,836 Speaker 1: Was he right? 221 00:13:49,356 --> 00:13:51,356 Speaker 2: Of course he was. Jim's always right. 222 00:13:52,156 --> 00:13:56,676 Speaker 1: So yeah, in the immortal words of the Yoki Barrow, 223 00:13:56,716 --> 00:13:59,236 Speaker 1: when you reach the fork in the road, you got 224 00:13:59,236 --> 00:13:59,676 Speaker 1: to take it. 225 00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:04,716 Speaker 2: So you go tell me about the board meeting. You 226 00:14:05,356 --> 00:14:07,916 Speaker 2: go to the board, You go to the board, and 227 00:14:07,956 --> 00:14:09,716 Speaker 2: what happens. 228 00:14:10,276 --> 00:14:16,316 Speaker 1: Well, they we'd had the board, had brought in consultants, 229 00:14:17,116 --> 00:14:22,836 Speaker 1: and I was explaining this and presenting this and talking 230 00:14:22,876 --> 00:14:28,276 Speaker 1: about the strategy, thinking they were with me, and really 231 00:14:28,316 --> 00:14:35,196 Speaker 1: I was just speaking into just a vacuum of perceptivity 232 00:14:35,236 --> 00:14:36,076 Speaker 1: and interest to it. 233 00:14:36,476 --> 00:14:37,436 Speaker 2: Why weren't they with you? 234 00:14:39,276 --> 00:14:42,996 Speaker 1: I think it was too radical what I was trying 235 00:14:42,996 --> 00:14:47,396 Speaker 1: to do. I'd not spent near enough time with them 236 00:14:47,996 --> 00:14:53,876 Speaker 1: explaining it and debating it, which is a lesson I learned. 237 00:14:54,836 --> 00:15:00,036 Speaker 1: And you've really driven the company strategies for twenty years 238 00:15:00,436 --> 00:15:05,116 Speaker 1: to a twenty billion dollar company, and you think they'll 239 00:15:05,236 --> 00:15:06,796 Speaker 1: just follow you. 240 00:15:08,196 --> 00:15:11,596 Speaker 2: They say, what are you talking about? We're a company 241 00:15:11,596 --> 00:15:15,836 Speaker 2: that makes phones. An SMS two point zero. Jim's vision 242 00:15:15,916 --> 00:15:19,316 Speaker 2: for the next stage of BlackBerry is killed just a 243 00:15:19,316 --> 00:15:21,276 Speaker 2: few weeks before it was supposed to launch. 244 00:15:22,356 --> 00:15:26,396 Speaker 1: I wasn't consulted. I didn't know it was happening. It 245 00:15:26,476 --> 00:15:31,876 Speaker 1: was just on the agenda, presented and decided and I 246 00:15:31,956 --> 00:15:35,436 Speaker 1: called the lead director after that and I said, what 247 00:15:35,436 --> 00:15:37,756 Speaker 1: what's going on here? This will kill the company? And 248 00:15:37,756 --> 00:15:43,316 Speaker 1: they say, the decisions made and so I resigned from 249 00:15:43,356 --> 00:15:45,996 Speaker 1: the board and sold my shares. The remaining shares at 250 00:15:45,996 --> 00:15:49,476 Speaker 1: that time, and they were extremely confident for a year 251 00:15:49,516 --> 00:15:53,596 Speaker 1: and a half, marketing campaigns, super Bowl ads, lots of 252 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:58,396 Speaker 1: declarations of its future and its success and it's going 253 00:15:58,436 --> 00:16:00,876 Speaker 1: to be great. And there was just one board member 254 00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:03,276 Speaker 1: who was from the tech industry and from the telecom 255 00:16:03,316 --> 00:16:07,956 Speaker 1: industry who called me and said, there's nothing I can 256 00:16:07,996 --> 00:16:12,876 Speaker 1: do to stop it. This is Mattess. Yeah, And it 257 00:16:12,916 --> 00:16:16,676 Speaker 1: was just jaw on the floor. I just never experienced 258 00:16:16,716 --> 00:16:21,276 Speaker 1: anything like that, and I didn't see it coming. And 259 00:16:21,436 --> 00:16:25,796 Speaker 1: how could somebody be so blind to something like that 260 00:16:26,476 --> 00:16:34,276 Speaker 1: when it's such a consequential decision. We'll be right back. 261 00:16:43,316 --> 00:16:45,836 Speaker 2: Jim and I both went to Trinity College at the 262 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:49,916 Speaker 2: University of Toronto, which was and still is the smallest 263 00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:52,636 Speaker 2: and the snobbiest of the colleges that make up the 264 00:16:52,716 --> 00:16:55,476 Speaker 2: University of Toronto. I met Jim in the first few 265 00:16:55,516 --> 00:16:59,036 Speaker 2: weeks of freshman year. I had just turned seventeen. I 266 00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:01,636 Speaker 2: just had eye surgery. So I had a huge scarveting 267 00:17:01,636 --> 00:17:04,556 Speaker 2: down the side of my face, a massive afro, lots 268 00:17:04,596 --> 00:17:07,476 Speaker 2: of acne, maybe one hundred and ten pounds, and all 269 00:17:07,476 --> 00:17:10,476 Speaker 2: the wrong clothes. I was from a small town way 270 00:17:10,476 --> 00:17:13,436 Speaker 2: off in the countryside. Here I was at swanky Trinity, 271 00:17:13,796 --> 00:17:16,236 Speaker 2: and I had no idea how the fancy kids dressed 272 00:17:16,676 --> 00:17:19,156 Speaker 2: and no money to do anything about it. I had 273 00:17:19,156 --> 00:17:21,716 Speaker 2: a moment of truth, I need to figure out how 274 00:17:21,756 --> 00:17:24,676 Speaker 2: to fit in. Jim lived across the hall from me. 275 00:17:25,236 --> 00:17:28,636 Speaker 2: He taught me how to play backgammon. I played endless 276 00:17:28,676 --> 00:17:31,156 Speaker 2: games at touch football with him. I had a beloved 277 00:17:31,236 --> 00:17:33,956 Speaker 2: jade tree that I called William F. Buckley, and he 278 00:17:34,076 --> 00:17:36,636 Speaker 2: used to steal Buckley from my room and put him 279 00:17:36,636 --> 00:17:40,276 Speaker 2: in some perilous place. And I think the reason that 280 00:17:40,356 --> 00:17:43,076 Speaker 2: I felt a certain affinity with Jim is that I 281 00:17:43,156 --> 00:17:47,396 Speaker 2: since he shared my urgency about fitting in, only it 282 00:17:47,476 --> 00:17:49,396 Speaker 2: was going to be much harder for him than me. 283 00:17:50,116 --> 00:17:54,236 Speaker 2: First of all, he was from Peterborough. Nobody was from Peterborough. 284 00:17:54,516 --> 00:17:58,156 Speaker 2: He had further to climb. And second, he was really 285 00:17:58,196 --> 00:18:01,716 Speaker 2: really ambitious. I mean I was ambitious, but not like Jim. 286 00:18:02,476 --> 00:18:07,516 Speaker 2: Jim wanted it more. Do you remember what was it 287 00:18:07,636 --> 00:18:13,516 Speaker 2: like when you came to university. What's your account of 288 00:18:13,556 --> 00:18:14,956 Speaker 2: your kind of first year at Trinity. 289 00:18:15,396 --> 00:18:18,916 Speaker 1: Ah, well, it was very intimidating. I found these people 290 00:18:18,956 --> 00:18:23,676 Speaker 1: from tremendous privilege and just very very intimidating and meeting 291 00:18:23,716 --> 00:18:27,476 Speaker 1: people with stellar backgrounds. I'd never been on an airplane, 292 00:18:27,716 --> 00:18:33,676 Speaker 1: I've never been outside of Ontario. Very modest background. Yeah, 293 00:18:33,756 --> 00:18:36,876 Speaker 1: just tremendously intimidating. I mean, I was smart, but then 294 00:18:36,916 --> 00:18:40,636 Speaker 1: you'd see Robertson Davies at high table and sometimes his 295 00:18:40,756 --> 00:18:44,596 Speaker 1: friend north of Fry there and it's like, con Dorothy, 296 00:18:44,676 --> 00:18:46,076 Speaker 1: this is not Kansas anymore. 297 00:18:47,356 --> 00:18:50,396 Speaker 2: Just so you know, Robertson Davies and north of Fry 298 00:18:50,516 --> 00:18:53,796 Speaker 2: were two of the biggest Canadian intellectual celebrities of that era, 299 00:18:54,276 --> 00:18:56,996 Speaker 2: and we'd see them out our window walking through the 300 00:18:56,996 --> 00:19:01,236 Speaker 2: college quadrangle God out for a stroll. For those of 301 00:19:01,316 --> 00:19:05,716 Speaker 2: us from the sticks, this seemed unbelievable. So we just 302 00:19:05,796 --> 00:19:09,996 Speaker 2: to remember you and I in You were across the 303 00:19:09,996 --> 00:19:13,436 Speaker 2: hall in our second year, and I remember there were 304 00:19:13,636 --> 00:19:15,916 Speaker 2: how many people were our floor? Thirteen people on our 305 00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:18,796 Speaker 2: floor or something like that. I remember telling my dad, 306 00:19:18,836 --> 00:19:22,276 Speaker 2: I Max Max Max maybe twelve. It was like private 307 00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:26,356 Speaker 2: school kids and kids who went up for Canada College, 308 00:19:26,396 --> 00:19:30,476 Speaker 2: you know, and kids who went to it was Did 309 00:19:30,516 --> 00:19:36,836 Speaker 2: you feel like you had to work harder to prove 310 00:19:36,876 --> 00:19:39,116 Speaker 2: yourself in that world? What was yours? 311 00:19:39,396 --> 00:19:42,436 Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, I worked all the time as a kid. 312 00:19:42,476 --> 00:19:44,876 Speaker 1: I had five or six paper roots, four or five 313 00:19:44,996 --> 00:19:48,116 Speaker 1: paper roots almost all the time. And then I got 314 00:19:48,156 --> 00:19:50,716 Speaker 1: summer and winter jobs from grade and seven on. I 315 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:53,516 Speaker 1: bought my own clothes. I still to this day have 316 00:19:53,676 --> 00:19:57,796 Speaker 1: my own pants and darn socks. Yeah, I can darn 317 00:19:57,876 --> 00:19:59,836 Speaker 1: socks with the best of them. I sew my own 318 00:19:59,836 --> 00:20:01,996 Speaker 1: buttons on because you learn how to do it. And 319 00:20:02,116 --> 00:20:04,636 Speaker 1: I'll sit there, watch the news and sew up my 320 00:20:04,676 --> 00:20:07,516 Speaker 1: clothes all the time. It's very, very funny. I just 321 00:20:07,636 --> 00:20:10,956 Speaker 1: enjoy sewing. And but I always so I had my 322 00:20:10,996 --> 00:20:16,036 Speaker 1: own clothes. I stitched in my shirts, I darn socks. Yeah, 323 00:20:16,036 --> 00:20:18,316 Speaker 1: it's a funny thing, right. And when something rips, I'll 324 00:20:19,196 --> 00:20:20,636 Speaker 1: you know, my wife says, why don't you buy a 325 00:20:20,676 --> 00:20:23,716 Speaker 1: new pair sweatpants and sid well, I can fix those, 326 00:20:23,916 --> 00:20:26,036 Speaker 1: and it's very funny. So I'll sit there with a 327 00:20:26,036 --> 00:20:30,516 Speaker 1: big thing and do a catch stitch on it, and yeah, 328 00:20:30,596 --> 00:20:32,156 Speaker 1: and then and so you work all the time, and 329 00:20:32,196 --> 00:20:35,356 Speaker 1: then you go to school and you you know, I 330 00:20:35,396 --> 00:20:37,476 Speaker 1: would I would do the math club, and I'd go 331 00:20:37,516 --> 00:20:40,836 Speaker 1: to basketball, and then I'd go out to a party, 332 00:20:40,876 --> 00:20:43,236 Speaker 1: and then I'd work all weekend. So yeah, I just 333 00:20:43,396 --> 00:20:45,036 Speaker 1: I just I work every day. 334 00:20:45,916 --> 00:20:48,876 Speaker 2: Jim went off to Harvard Business School right after graduation. 335 00:20:49,676 --> 00:20:52,436 Speaker 2: He could have gotten a job anywhere, but he chose Rim, 336 00:20:52,996 --> 00:20:55,636 Speaker 2: right near where I grew up in Waterloo, Ontario. And 337 00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:57,636 Speaker 2: RIM's rise was swift. 338 00:20:58,876 --> 00:21:06,356 Speaker 1: It's important to understand that that Apple launched the iPhone 339 00:21:06,636 --> 00:21:12,276 Speaker 1: in January two thousand and seven, and in response there 340 00:21:12,316 --> 00:21:15,476 Speaker 1: was a very aggressive selling and marketing and device function. 341 00:21:16,476 --> 00:21:22,476 Speaker 2: Apple supercharged the smartphone category the same way Starbucks supercharged cappuccinos, 342 00:21:22,836 --> 00:21:25,836 Speaker 2: and in the beginning, Rim was able to ride that wave. 343 00:21:27,036 --> 00:21:30,076 Speaker 1: So when they launched in two thousand and seven, we 344 00:21:30,076 --> 00:21:32,676 Speaker 1: were three billion sales. The next year we grew to six. 345 00:21:33,236 --> 00:21:35,196 Speaker 1: The next year we grew to eleven billion. The next 346 00:21:35,276 --> 00:21:38,236 Speaker 1: year we grew to fifteen. The next year we grew 347 00:21:38,236 --> 00:21:41,516 Speaker 1: to twenty billion. Fortune had us in the middle of 348 00:21:41,516 --> 00:21:44,236 Speaker 1: that time the fastest growing company in the world. Smarter 349 00:21:44,636 --> 00:21:48,636 Speaker 1: and sleeker now with real time turn by turn GPS navigation. 350 00:21:49,596 --> 00:21:52,956 Speaker 1: It has the intelligence you require with the beauty you desire, 351 00:21:53,236 --> 00:21:54,756 Speaker 1: the all new BlackBerry curve. 352 00:21:55,356 --> 00:21:58,076 Speaker 2: I would drive through Waterloo in those years and see 353 00:21:58,156 --> 00:22:01,836 Speaker 2: building after building after building with a big RIM logo 354 00:22:01,916 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 2: on it. Even today, my mom lives across the street 355 00:22:05,316 --> 00:22:08,436 Speaker 2: from a giant recreational center donated to the city by 356 00:22:08,516 --> 00:22:11,556 Speaker 2: Rim back in now that era Rim Park. It is 357 00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:14,156 Speaker 2: impossible not to have a certain amount of pride and 358 00:22:14,196 --> 00:22:16,796 Speaker 2: affection for the guy who used to steal your jade 359 00:22:16,836 --> 00:22:20,636 Speaker 2: tree and ended up a billionaire. And then at the 360 00:22:20,756 --> 00:22:24,436 Speaker 2: very height of BlackBerry's success, Jim wanted to go left 361 00:22:24,916 --> 00:22:28,836 Speaker 2: and the board of directors wanted to go right. But Jim, 362 00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:32,116 Speaker 2: b this is a good moment for a reflection here, 363 00:22:32,876 --> 00:22:35,916 Speaker 2: how are they not with you? You've built this thing, 364 00:22:36,716 --> 00:22:42,436 Speaker 2: You've been this strategic force behind this extraordinary company. You're 365 00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:46,556 Speaker 2: you know, the device is in the hands of President 366 00:22:46,556 --> 00:22:50,116 Speaker 2: of the United States. I mean, like, how how is 367 00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:52,596 Speaker 2: it that they could look at that, they would see 368 00:22:52,596 --> 00:22:54,716 Speaker 2: what you had done for the company and look at 369 00:22:54,876 --> 00:22:56,716 Speaker 2: come to this crucial fork in the road, and not 370 00:22:56,796 --> 00:22:59,836 Speaker 2: even they don't even seem interested in your option. 371 00:23:02,036 --> 00:23:05,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, Mike and the new CEO Thorston didn't. They 372 00:23:05,796 --> 00:23:12,956 Speaker 1: were hardware people, and Mike did say right in the 373 00:23:13,076 --> 00:23:15,156 Speaker 1: end in a meeting before the board meeting, if we 374 00:23:15,276 --> 00:23:19,316 Speaker 1: do this, it'll kill hardware. And I said, hardware is 375 00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:24,036 Speaker 1: already dead. And and it's like I told him his 376 00:23:24,156 --> 00:23:25,556 Speaker 1: dog just got hit by a car. 377 00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:30,316 Speaker 2: When you look at your what you did, and where 378 00:23:30,316 --> 00:23:31,516 Speaker 2: do you think the mistake lay? 379 00:23:32,436 --> 00:23:35,876 Speaker 1: I think it's many things that you're touching on. One is, 380 00:23:36,076 --> 00:23:38,356 Speaker 1: for sure, you're busy because you're flying around the world 381 00:23:38,396 --> 00:23:44,876 Speaker 1: trying to enact this shift. I underestimated how a strategic 382 00:23:44,916 --> 00:23:53,316 Speaker 1: shift is hard for people. You'd much rather have a continuum. Yeah, 383 00:23:53,556 --> 00:23:58,916 Speaker 1: more time, for sure, more more preparation, more persuasion. I 384 00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 1: did not spend the time I needed to. I'd always 385 00:24:05,676 --> 00:24:09,636 Speaker 1: driven the decisions, and they'd always been yes, of course, 386 00:24:09,676 --> 00:24:13,636 Speaker 1: we'll do what I'm pushing. But ultimately the board held 387 00:24:13,676 --> 00:24:18,956 Speaker 1: the power. So underestimated their power, underestimated how they were 388 00:24:18,996 --> 00:24:20,596 Speaker 1: sold in their way of thinking. 389 00:24:20,956 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 2: If we cut to the bottom line, here is you 390 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:28,796 Speaker 2: you have a notion of where the company's future lies, 391 00:24:29,396 --> 00:24:32,556 Speaker 2: which turns out in retrospect to be accurate. Right, yours 392 00:24:32,676 --> 00:24:38,556 Speaker 2: was the only path. There was no path, the right 393 00:24:38,556 --> 00:24:40,316 Speaker 2: word fork in the road was only going to lead 394 00:24:40,356 --> 00:24:42,836 Speaker 2: to disaster. There was no path that BlackBerry was going 395 00:24:42,876 --> 00:24:44,836 Speaker 2: to emerge a winner by focusing on hardware. 396 00:24:44,916 --> 00:24:46,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no there's no debate on that now. 397 00:24:46,796 --> 00:24:50,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was at least a decent probability it could 398 00:24:50,316 --> 00:24:52,236 Speaker 2: have come out on top or at least very healthy 399 00:24:52,276 --> 00:24:55,276 Speaker 2: in the other path you had. You came up with 400 00:24:55,316 --> 00:24:59,476 Speaker 2: this idea, You had an enormous amount of intellectual confidence 401 00:24:59,516 --> 00:25:06,556 Speaker 2: in the accuracy of your decision. But what you what 402 00:25:06,596 --> 00:25:10,396 Speaker 2: you overestimated, was that you you thought that having a 403 00:25:10,396 --> 00:25:15,276 Speaker 2: great idea, well supported by evidence would be sufficient to 404 00:25:15,316 --> 00:25:18,516 Speaker 2: win over a group of intelligent people. And what you 405 00:25:18,596 --> 00:25:23,956 Speaker 2: discovered was actually no, A room full of allegedly intelligent 406 00:25:23,956 --> 00:25:27,476 Speaker 2: people need more than an intellectual argument to win them over. 407 00:25:28,516 --> 00:25:30,556 Speaker 2: They need to have You need to go out to 408 00:25:30,596 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 2: dinner with them seven times and at a lovely restaurant 409 00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:38,556 Speaker 2: and hold their hand and kind of, you know, make 410 00:25:38,596 --> 00:25:40,636 Speaker 2: them feel like they're wanted and needed and that you're 411 00:25:40,676 --> 00:25:43,236 Speaker 2: someone who they can trust, et cetera, etcetera, et cetera. 412 00:25:43,796 --> 00:25:48,276 Speaker 2: That was the It was all that soft stuff that 413 00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:51,396 Speaker 2: you underestimated the importance of. You thought it was what 414 00:25:51,436 --> 00:25:54,156 Speaker 2: you needed was what you needed to be. You thought 415 00:25:54,156 --> 00:25:57,276 Speaker 2: what was what was most important was to be right. 416 00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:03,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah no. I do a lot 417 00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:05,876 Speaker 1: kind of in I do a lot in public policy. 418 00:26:05,956 --> 00:26:09,516 Speaker 1: And my wife makes a joke. She says, Jim's was 419 00:26:09,556 --> 00:26:11,236 Speaker 1: why convince when you can confuse? 420 00:26:13,236 --> 00:26:15,596 Speaker 2: By the way, what's Jim doing as all this is 421 00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:18,956 Speaker 2: going on trying to buy a National Hockey League franchise, 422 00:26:19,436 --> 00:26:22,756 Speaker 2: the Pittsburgh Penguins in two thousand and six, the Nashville 423 00:26:22,836 --> 00:26:25,916 Speaker 2: Predators in two thousand and seven, the Phoenix Coyotes in 424 00:26:25,916 --> 00:26:29,476 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine. In each case, the franchises were 425 00:26:29,476 --> 00:26:33,036 Speaker 2: struggling financially, and Jim proposed to move them to a 426 00:26:33,076 --> 00:26:37,516 Speaker 2: big city in southern Ontario called Hamilton. Was Jim right 427 00:26:37,596 --> 00:26:40,676 Speaker 2: to want to do this, of course he was. Southern 428 00:26:40,716 --> 00:26:44,316 Speaker 2: Ontario is home to fourteen million people and at present 429 00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:47,756 Speaker 2: has just one hockey team, the Toronto Maple Leafs, which 430 00:26:47,836 --> 00:26:51,156 Speaker 2: is absolutely bananas. They could easily be three or even 431 00:26:51,236 --> 00:26:54,596 Speaker 2: four more franchises in the Toronto region, and each would 432 00:26:54,596 --> 00:26:57,796 Speaker 2: be more successful than almost any franchise in the entire league. 433 00:26:58,436 --> 00:27:00,916 Speaker 2: But could Jim convince the other owners to let him 434 00:27:00,916 --> 00:27:01,196 Speaker 2: do it? 435 00:27:01,796 --> 00:27:02,756 Speaker 1: No? He couldn't. 436 00:27:04,196 --> 00:27:10,196 Speaker 2: I'm wondering, isn't the Penguins story a version of this that? 437 00:27:10,196 --> 00:27:14,716 Speaker 2: That was another case where you were right. The Penguin 438 00:27:14,716 --> 00:27:18,476 Speaker 2: should not be in Pittsburgh. The Penguins should be in Hamilton. Right, 439 00:27:18,916 --> 00:27:23,596 Speaker 2: You are a hundred percent correct. The future of the league. 440 00:27:24,036 --> 00:27:26,156 Speaker 2: This is a terribly run league by a bunch of 441 00:27:26,156 --> 00:27:29,956 Speaker 2: idiots who have not understood that Canada is the natural 442 00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:33,076 Speaker 2: home for has way too few hockey teams, and Hamilton 443 00:27:33,316 --> 00:27:37,116 Speaker 2: is would be one hundred times better as a home 444 00:27:37,156 --> 00:27:38,436 Speaker 2: for the Penguins in Pittsburgh. 445 00:27:38,516 --> 00:27:38,716 Speaker 1: Right. 446 00:27:39,476 --> 00:27:43,236 Speaker 2: So in both instances, the story of BlackBerry's Folk in 447 00:27:43,276 --> 00:27:46,316 Speaker 2: the Road and the story of the Penguins, you are correct. 448 00:27:47,116 --> 00:27:51,076 Speaker 2: And in both instances you cannot convince the board. In 449 00:27:51,116 --> 00:27:52,716 Speaker 2: one case the rest of the owners and the other 450 00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:56,716 Speaker 2: case the board of the company. You cannot convince them 451 00:27:56,796 --> 00:28:00,316 Speaker 2: of the one hundred percent accuracy of your position. 452 00:28:01,916 --> 00:28:04,836 Speaker 1: Had you done No, I think they're different because one 453 00:28:05,036 --> 00:28:08,076 Speaker 1: just was never meant One was just never meant to be. 454 00:28:08,196 --> 00:28:11,516 Speaker 1: It wasn't ever they weren't going to allow it to happen. 455 00:28:12,116 --> 00:28:15,076 Speaker 2: Was it never going to happen? Is the one blind 456 00:28:15,116 --> 00:28:17,836 Speaker 2: spot in the otherwise sublime mind of a man like 457 00:28:17,956 --> 00:28:20,796 Speaker 2: Jim that he can't see how he could have made 458 00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:23,836 Speaker 2: it happen. You were. Let me, let me, let me 459 00:28:23,916 --> 00:28:25,516 Speaker 2: let me just I just want to one last point 460 00:28:25,516 --> 00:28:29,316 Speaker 2: about Pittsburgh, the Penguins. I'm going to imagine a completely 461 00:28:29,396 --> 00:28:33,276 Speaker 2: different Jim. Imagine. I'm gonna imagine if you are the 462 00:28:33,316 --> 00:28:39,556 Speaker 2: schmoozer of schmoozers. You are the most kind of gregarious backslapping. 463 00:28:40,516 --> 00:28:41,796 Speaker 2: You're everyone you know. 464 00:28:41,956 --> 00:28:43,116 Speaker 1: You're like this. 465 00:28:43,636 --> 00:28:47,436 Speaker 2: Beloved social bluh. You spend and you had wind and 466 00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:50,316 Speaker 2: dined and got to know every single owner in the 467 00:28:50,356 --> 00:28:53,076 Speaker 2: in the NHL, and then you had said to them 468 00:28:53,596 --> 00:28:56,676 Speaker 2: you buy the Penguins. And then you say to them, guys, 469 00:28:57,476 --> 00:28:58,916 Speaker 2: this is a bad hockey market. 470 00:28:58,956 --> 00:28:59,356 Speaker 1: I think. 471 00:28:59,716 --> 00:29:01,636 Speaker 2: Let me talk to you about a future of the 472 00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:03,396 Speaker 2: league where blah blah blah blah. Right, is there not 473 00:29:03,436 --> 00:29:06,356 Speaker 2: a version if you can't do it, because that's not 474 00:29:06,396 --> 00:29:09,076 Speaker 2: who you are. But imagine a version of yourself where 475 00:29:09,116 --> 00:29:13,796 Speaker 2: I shave off forty IQ points and I give you 476 00:29:14,036 --> 00:29:19,596 Speaker 2: a a beer belly and an afshucks like you know, 477 00:29:19,996 --> 00:29:22,836 Speaker 2: and an endless appetite for Martiniz and steaks, and I 478 00:29:22,916 --> 00:29:25,076 Speaker 2: send you on a tour of all the good old 479 00:29:25,076 --> 00:29:28,876 Speaker 2: boys who run NHL franchises. Do you get your way 480 00:29:28,916 --> 00:29:29,636 Speaker 2: if you do it that way? 481 00:29:29,636 --> 00:29:33,676 Speaker 1: If you're that person in hindsight, I don't think I 482 00:29:33,756 --> 00:29:34,876 Speaker 1: see no chance. 483 00:29:35,276 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 2: Go on, really, Oh come on, Jim, this is your mistake, 484 00:29:41,316 --> 00:29:44,796 Speaker 2: This is your blind spot. Doesn't this drive you? Why 485 00:29:44,836 --> 00:29:46,436 Speaker 2: am I the only one who's driven crazy by this? 486 00:29:46,796 --> 00:29:49,756 Speaker 2: They are morons? They are morons. Well, it would have 487 00:29:49,796 --> 00:29:53,636 Speaker 2: been very, very profitable. There's no question. We had facility, 488 00:29:53,676 --> 00:29:55,276 Speaker 2: and we had the real estate. Yet it would have 489 00:29:55,316 --> 00:29:57,836 Speaker 2: been very very proper. It is concentration of hockey fans 490 00:29:57,836 --> 00:30:01,636 Speaker 2: in the entire world, with hockey fans with money in 491 00:30:01,676 --> 00:30:04,276 Speaker 2: an underserved market who can't get any tickets. 492 00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:06,916 Speaker 1: To That's the math. That's the math. 493 00:30:08,596 --> 00:30:11,676 Speaker 2: Several times times during our conversation, Jim used the word 494 00:30:11,756 --> 00:30:15,156 Speaker 2: heretic to describe the way other people at RIM, the board, 495 00:30:15,196 --> 00:30:18,036 Speaker 2: and everyone else viewed him, and I think it's the 496 00:30:18,076 --> 00:30:21,996 Speaker 2: perfect word. The heretic is the person who strays from 497 00:30:21,996 --> 00:30:26,716 Speaker 2: the orthodoxy, but not quietly or passively. The heretic does 498 00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:31,796 Speaker 2: it loudly, without regard for everyone else's sensibilities. I said 499 00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:33,876 Speaker 2: at the beginning that when Jim and I came to 500 00:30:33,916 --> 00:30:36,676 Speaker 2: Trinity from the sticks. Both of us were engaged in 501 00:30:36,716 --> 00:30:39,636 Speaker 2: the project of figuring out how to fit in. We 502 00:30:39,676 --> 00:30:42,196 Speaker 2: came in with chips on our shoulders, and we had 503 00:30:42,196 --> 00:30:45,036 Speaker 2: to find a way to remove them without calling too 504 00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:49,036 Speaker 2: much attention to ourselves. I think I was better at 505 00:30:49,036 --> 00:30:53,316 Speaker 2: that than he was. My j tree William F. Buckley 506 00:30:53,916 --> 00:30:57,476 Speaker 2: kept getting stolen because in nineteen eightys Canada, to openly 507 00:30:57,476 --> 00:31:01,196 Speaker 2: affiliate with a conservative like William F. Buckley was a provocation. 508 00:31:01,916 --> 00:31:04,596 Speaker 2: So when I got a second j tree, I called 509 00:31:04,636 --> 00:31:07,796 Speaker 2: it run Dmtree. I put the lyrics on the side 510 00:31:07,796 --> 00:31:11,156 Speaker 2: of the pot sucker. Jade tree can't grow much higher. 511 00:31:11,436 --> 00:31:14,516 Speaker 2: All you other jade trees can call me sire, and 512 00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:17,756 Speaker 2: no one ever stole my run Dmtree. There were simple 513 00:31:17,796 --> 00:31:21,316 Speaker 2: ways to appease the Orthodoxy, but I don't think Jim 514 00:31:21,476 --> 00:31:24,636 Speaker 2: really ever wanted to appease anyone. I think he just 515 00:31:24,676 --> 00:31:27,156 Speaker 2: wanted to find the hole in the hedge. It's how 516 00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:29,356 Speaker 2: he got out of Peterborough, It's how he made his 517 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:31,836 Speaker 2: way to Trinity. It's how he turned a little startup 518 00:31:32,036 --> 00:31:39,836 Speaker 2: into a juggernaut. There's a famous psychology experiment from the 519 00:31:39,916 --> 00:31:43,436 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties where infant monkeys are taken from their mothers 520 00:31:43,876 --> 00:31:48,276 Speaker 2: and given a choice between two inanimate surrogates. Cloth Mother, 521 00:31:48,996 --> 00:31:52,876 Speaker 2: a toy mother monkey that soft and cuddly, and wire Mother, 522 00:31:53,436 --> 00:31:56,436 Speaker 2: a surrogate made out of steel wire holding a banana. 523 00:31:57,196 --> 00:32:01,276 Speaker 2: Which did they choose cloth Mother? They went for short 524 00:32:01,356 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 2: term comfort over long term survival. At the end of 525 00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:08,956 Speaker 2: the day, I think the rimboard wanted a cloth mother 526 00:32:09,676 --> 00:32:14,516 Speaker 2: and Jim was wire mother. They weren't rejecting BlackBerry messenger. 527 00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:19,716 Speaker 2: They were rejecting Jim, And maybe Jim's mistake was simply 528 00:32:19,716 --> 00:32:22,476 Speaker 2: that he didn't understand that for the rest of us monkeys, 529 00:32:22,996 --> 00:32:39,396 Speaker 2: a banana isn't enough. Revisious History is produced by Ninabird Lawrence, 530 00:32:39,556 --> 00:32:43,996 Speaker 2: Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Adaf Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Chakerji. 531 00:32:44,316 --> 00:32:48,996 Speaker 2: Fact checking by Angelie Mercado. Our executive producer Jacob Smith. 532 00:32:49,476 --> 00:32:52,956 Speaker 2: Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, original music by Luis Quarra, 533 00:32:53,756 --> 00:32:58,516 Speaker 2: Sound design and mastering by Marcelo di'ela vera. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.