Speaker 1: Swimming with the Blowfish, Hoody Healing, and One hell of
Speaker 1: a Ride. That's a great title. It's the book by
Speaker 1: Jim Sonefeld. Everyone calls him Sony, the drummer for Hoody
Speaker 1: and the Blowfish, a songwriter and now also a solo artist.
Speaker 1: Now I've known Sony for more than twenty five years.
Speaker 1: Hoody and the ESPN squad were closely connected in the nineties.
Speaker 1: To quote his bandmate Darius Rucker in the books Forward,
Speaker 1: Sony has lived a life that is rife with fun
Speaker 1: and pain, light and darkness, but always with an amazing
Speaker 1: amount of love. We talk about all kinds of things.
Speaker 1: How soccer dreams led him to South Carolina where he
Speaker 1: connected with Hoody. That's an incredible story that started with
Speaker 1: a devastating fire. Sony tells rock and roll tales, from
Speaker 1: the early struggles to selling more than ten million records,
Speaker 1: winning two Grammys. We have plenty of laughs, but Sony
Speaker 1: also really opens up about his addiction and recovery and
Speaker 1: his faith. Our conversation is honest, authentic, and inspiring. Well, Sony,
Speaker 1: It's awesome to reconnect with you after more than a
Speaker 1: couple of decades. Podcasts can serve that purpose too, and
Speaker 1: it's great to see your smiling, bald headed face. And
Speaker 1: we've got a lot to talk about, a lot of
Speaker 1: ground to cover, So thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2: So glad to reconnect. And it's a funny world that way.
Speaker 2: But you know, then you look up and you're maybe
Speaker 2: a little older, but we have great memories.
Speaker 1: We hope wiser too. Yeah, well you're a very funny guy.
Speaker 1: There is the funny, there is the heavy, and there's
Speaker 1: everything in between the cover. But first off, I want
Speaker 1: to start with a decision that you made when you're young.
Speaker 1: And so often our lives, the course of them, is
Speaker 1: changed by a decision that is to many others ill
Speaker 1: advised along and you're a young soccer player from the
Speaker 1: Midwest and you decide that you're good enough to go
Speaker 1: down to South Carolina and walk on to a very
Speaker 1: elite soccer program against the odds, and just by going
Speaker 1: to that school and that state and following that path,
Speaker 1: it seems like so many other things in your life,
Speaker 1: your music career, the loves of your life, all of
Speaker 1: that came from that one decision to jump in a
Speaker 1: car with your brother and drive from Illinois to South
Speaker 1: Carolina to try to make the soccer team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it shows I am nothing if not a
Speaker 2: host of human contradictions in my life. Many before that
Speaker 2: decision and many more after, But that was one where
Speaker 2: I sort of followed a gut instinct which I have
Speaker 2: not always done, and said, I think I can do
Speaker 2: this thing. I've played amongst all state players in Illinois,
Speaker 2: and there were many, I wasn't an All state player
Speaker 2: and in that award, and I look at the rosters
Speaker 2: in the Southeast where there were some big teams like
Speaker 2: NC State, Clemson, and South Carolina was on the rise,
Speaker 2: and I thought, that's the place I want to do
Speaker 2: something different.
Speaker 3: I want to get out of the.
Speaker 2: Cold, and I want to try it. Honestly, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe the best plans, when they work, are the ones
Speaker 2: that don't have a backup, because they look very courageous
Speaker 2: and brave. I didn't have a backup besides being a student,
Speaker 2: which would never have suited me enough compared to soccer,
Speaker 2: which had drawn me my whole life. So I had
Speaker 2: a little roster of picture back in the eighties and
Speaker 2: it was the team, the South Carolina team from the
Speaker 2: previous year, and I had xed out. Okay, he's a senior,
Speaker 2: he's graduating, he's leaving. Oh, he's transferred. And I had
Speaker 2: like it narrowed it down to these guys and I
Speaker 2: saw where they were from and what their stats were.
Speaker 2: I had dreamed up this dream based on a piece
Speaker 2: of paper and a promise from our coach to get
Speaker 2: a try out, a fair tryout. It was thinly advised,
Speaker 2: but you know, again, one of those things that looks
Speaker 2: pretty cool when you achieve it. I would have probably
Speaker 2: looked like it wasn't very well thought out if I
Speaker 2: had not achieved it.
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, looking at the looking at the
Speaker 1: roster and the calculating what your chances were, that's that's
Speaker 1: more than most walk ons do. But I love the
Speaker 1: fact that you said you followed your gut, your instinct,
Speaker 1: and to do that you got to clear out the static.
Speaker 1: And I know later in your life it was harder
Speaker 1: to clear out the static and listen to your gut.
Speaker 1: And that's the same thing for all of us, whether
Speaker 1: it's static from within or static around us. Clearing that
Speaker 1: away and making this choice that ended up working out
Speaker 1: great and led to so many other things. Although your
Speaker 1: soccer career, you write in your book about the ups
Speaker 1: and downs within that career, which kind of mirrors some
Speaker 1: of the ups and downs in your larger life. What
Speaker 1: does the number one point one signify oring that part
Speaker 1: of your life, And we're not talking about lad alcohol
Speaker 1: content at this point, that's later one point one.
Speaker 2: It probably would sounds like it was around my grade
Speaker 2: point average my freshman year. And that was the other
Speaker 2: part that was not well thought out. Oh, college is
Speaker 2: to get a degree. It's not to run around a
Speaker 2: soccer field. I hadn't thought much about the books and
Speaker 2: the time it would take to get proper grades to
Speaker 2: be a student athlete. So if that's what you're talking
Speaker 2: about that one point one, that's what I remember.
Speaker 1: You cock to that in your book and it's like
Speaker 1: almost a blue Tarski GPA. But the happy thing is
Speaker 1: you came back and you ended up turning that around,
Speaker 1: turning your career around. But music at this point, you right,
Speaker 1: You weren't in a band until you're twenty one, which
Speaker 1: is really late for a lot of people that listeners
Speaker 1: here playing music. Generally, they were in bands from a
Speaker 1: much younger age. I know you were drumming from a
Speaker 1: younger age, but you finally get music, passion kind of
Speaker 1: begins to take more charge. And although you did want
Speaker 1: to go to a grateful dead show, I think you
Speaker 1: said it was it was two days after for a
Speaker 1: soccer game, and all you want to do is drop
Speaker 1: acid and go to a dead show and not play soccer.
Speaker 1: But that thankful that that plan didn't end up happening.
Speaker 2: The wiser voices prevailed, thankfully.
Speaker 1: But but not getting around you know in bands just
Speaker 1: you know, playing for the fun of it, playing for
Speaker 1: the love of music. You talk about that because that's
Speaker 1: a part of the development of so many musicians. And
Speaker 1: when you did get into a band, and back in Colombia,
Speaker 1: Toody in the Jones was one of the early bands,
Speaker 1: right tout in the Jones to Hoody and the Blowfish.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the odds are going between two
Speaker 1: bands with those names.
Speaker 2: Yeah I didn't. I was not blessed with being in
Speaker 2: the greatest band named bands. There are many bad, dumb names,
Speaker 2: but I had the only Hoodie Toody that I ever
Speaker 2: canna remember in life. And you know, part part of
Speaker 2: my journey was like sports. I had a period where,
Speaker 2: you know, I was born a drummer, so I could
Speaker 2: drum on my own and I had that that is
Speaker 2: was in my blood from a young age and it
Speaker 2: was always going to be there. But it was picking
Speaker 2: up an acoustic guitar in college and then a piano
Speaker 2: and having fun with it to say this is an
Speaker 2: interest of mine. I'm under no pressure. I'm not you know, travel,
Speaker 2: I'm not being forced to do this. I'm enjoying it,
Speaker 2: and I'm growing and developing as I went. That was
Speaker 2: kind of an important part of my journey, even for
Speaker 2: my sport of soccer, because I played other sports, and
Speaker 2: back in that year, I don't think there was as
Speaker 2: much pressure on athletes at a young age to be
Speaker 2: in a system, to be on a club, to be
Speaker 2: signed in, signed up, and you got to play seven
Speaker 2: days a week and you can't play other sports. Music
Speaker 2: for me was that thing that was an interest that
Speaker 2: I needed time to develop and realize.
Speaker 3: No one's putting this on me.
Speaker 2: There's not a coach above me, there's not a parent
Speaker 2: looking over my shoulder, there's not an expectation. Music was
Speaker 2: this love in my heart that developed when I picked
Speaker 2: up a guitar and melodies came out, and when I
Speaker 2: picked up a piano. I didn't pick up a piano,
Speaker 2: I guess I sat down in front of it technic
Speaker 2: and realized, there's a beautiful thing that's connecting me to
Speaker 2: all the music I've listened to as a child.
Speaker 3: So I liked that I had that.
Speaker 2: Period of time to just enjoy something before it became serious.
Speaker 2: And maybe kids today, because I've raised a handful of
Speaker 2: student athletes, that's too much. We get them so serious
Speaker 2: so early in their sport, in their singular lane, that
Speaker 2: it takes some of the joy away. And so music
Speaker 2: was never taken away from me as a joyful interest.
Speaker 3: I'm thankful for that.
Speaker 1: Was it love of the process more than concern about
Speaker 1: fortune and fame that obviously you came later in a
Speaker 1: different band. Was it just playing music brought you joy
Speaker 1: and you weren't trying to get somewhere with it, you
Speaker 1: were just trying to enjoy it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. I was very much in the moment.
Speaker 2: I was training on the job, I was seeing the results.
Speaker 2: For making music is first in your own heart. You
Speaker 2: make a song, you're amused, you're delighted by a rhyme
Speaker 2: you've come up with with that you sound a little
Speaker 2: bit like a good song that you've heard on the radio.
Speaker 2: You feel that little self accomplishment. But then getting in
Speaker 2: front of people in bars at twenty one for the
Speaker 2: first time to see the reaction, that was kind of cool.
Speaker 2: It was similar to sports and getting a round of applause.
Speaker 2: But it was also never competition, and I'm thankful that
Speaker 2: that music has never felt like a competition for me
Speaker 2: or my bandmates's we.
Speaker 3: Get to do it, we love doing it. Let's do it.
Speaker 2: You know. There was no we're beating them, or we
Speaker 2: have to compete against some other band. We never looked
Speaker 2: at it that way, and there are bands, there are
Speaker 2: artists who do and take it rather seriously.
Speaker 3: We never had that.
Speaker 2: We knew we get to be on stage. This is fun,
Speaker 2: this is you know, what we were meant to do.
Speaker 2: So sports was different that way. Music was just wow,
Speaker 2: I'm coming up with melodies. You know, I'm starving, I
Speaker 2: can't pay rents, But those seem to be less of
Speaker 2: a worry than the joy we got on stage.
Speaker 1: Speaking of rent, you writing your book about one of
Speaker 1: those events in life that is horrible at the time
Speaker 1: but creates an experience in growth you lose I guess
Speaker 1: almost everything you have in a fire in your apartment building,
Speaker 1: and at that point your parents had gotten divorced. I
Speaker 1: believe you really had no home to go back to.
Speaker 1: You had nowhere to go and not much to your name.
Speaker 1: And it was through that experience that you got connected
Speaker 1: with Mark Bryant, the guitarist in Hoodie, and you talk
Speaker 1: about your first connection with that band was an act
Speaker 1: of love and generosity on your behalf, which is a
Speaker 1: very cool origin story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and honestly, I didn't connect that until I sat
Speaker 2: down to start writing the book and looking at the
Speaker 2: greater the picture from above, like, wait, the thing that
Speaker 2: connected us was, you know, I remember auditioning for the band,
Speaker 2: but really, when I went back further, it was the
Speaker 2: fact that I was found myself homeless, and I went
Speaker 2: instinctively to the place where I would go for some
Speaker 2: solace in college, a bar, right, That's where you go
Speaker 2: to to meet someone that you can tell your story
Speaker 2: to or maybe get a free drink. And I was
Speaker 2: down and out. I wasn't feeling too great at that moment.
Speaker 2: But when I walked in, it was a guy I
Speaker 2: knew from audio production class, Mark Bryan on stage and
Speaker 2: his act in the middle of his band's rock and
Speaker 2: roll show to stop the show, recognize me and know
Speaker 2: that there was a fire on campus, and stay hold up, everybody,
Speaker 2: I want you to know there was a fire on campus.
Speaker 2: You've probably heard about it. But I'm gonna take my
Speaker 2: sweaty Maryland ball cap off and pass it, and you're
Speaker 2: gonna put money in it for my buddy Sony, who's
Speaker 2: walking up to the stage right now. And I thought,
Speaker 2: what kind of like outrageous love is this? It just
Speaker 2: felt good. Of course, I was happy to be in
Speaker 2: the moment and have thirty four bucks stuffed in my
Speaker 2: pocket a few minutes later. But I thought, a few
Speaker 2: months later, as I'm getting an audition for that band
Speaker 2: which ends up being hooting the Blowfish, these are good guys.
Speaker 2: These aren't just guys who were striving to get to
Speaker 2: the top of music. They're having fun on stage. They're
Speaker 2: willing to use their influence on that stage for good,
Speaker 2: which I didn't forget. And when I joined the band,
Speaker 2: I felt I was probably in the right place because
Speaker 2: of what they brought, not just musically but in their hearts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd have a real tragedy. That is one of
Speaker 1: the coolest joining of band stories. I've ever heard thirty
Speaker 1: four bucks in a condom? You wrote it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was luckily not used. It was just still
Speaker 2: the wrapper and I probably never got to use it.
Speaker 2: But the moment was not lost on me. And that
Speaker 2: was the fun of writing a book is I got
Speaker 2: to go back to some moments that were vague to
Speaker 2: me or I remember them.
Speaker 3: But when you sit down and you want to write
Speaker 3: a riveting.
Speaker 2: Story about the moment, you got to think of what
Speaker 2: actually happened there. And the more I thought, the more
Speaker 2: I remembered, Oh my gosh, this was kind of a
Speaker 2: cool connection to my new band. And I wouldn't find
Speaker 2: out for six months, but eventually I'd be in that
Speaker 2: band that was on stage, and yeah, what a crazy
Speaker 2: thing to be homeless and then find a home.
Speaker 1: It's one of the great stories in the book. You
Speaker 1: talk about kind of two worlds intersecting that the very
Speaker 1: first Hootie show you play, what were you doing earlier
Speaker 1: on that Saturday? Because I get a kick out of this.
Speaker 2: Well, I had a good work ethic and I joined
Speaker 2: a couple bands, so I was, you know, scrambling. I
Speaker 2: worked forty hours at the University TV department, which and
Speaker 2: then had two bands I was in. A part of
Speaker 2: my job at the USC was to cover the Sparky
Speaker 2: Woods Football Show, and I was an assistant to one
Speaker 2: of the cameramen, running up and down the field, you know,
Speaker 2: every third down for the punt and just hustle. And
Speaker 2: that's what a youthful guy like me was built to
Speaker 2: do at the time. And so I was in Athens,
Speaker 2: Georgia watching the game Cocks take one to the Bulldogs
Speaker 2: that day, which was pretty sweet, and I knew I
Speaker 2: had to drive my dumpy little car another couple hours
Speaker 2: to meet my bandmates at a local small college where
Speaker 2: we had my first gig with the band at a
Speaker 2: fraternity mixer. And so it was a typical day that
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't I didn't ever worry about sleep
Speaker 2: or you know, any of that stuff. So I was
Speaker 2: happy to go work my butt off in Athens and
Speaker 2: then go to another town and then.
Speaker 3: I'm sure I got home at three in the morning.
Speaker 3: You know, pretty happy.
Speaker 1: Brother, That's no typical day. That's an amazing difference of
Speaker 1: all South Carolina winning between the Hedges and Athens didn't
Speaker 1: happen anymore. But that was in the late late eighties,
Speaker 1: it was possible. And you do that, and then you
Speaker 1: go play your first gig with this band that's going
Speaker 1: to be an ultra massive that's a pretty damn good Saturday.
Speaker 2: It was. I mean, you can appreciate it when you're
Speaker 2: hustle around and you are happy and you're in and
Speaker 2: your love and life and you're doing things you get
Speaker 2: that you love a sports. I mean, suddenly a twelve
Speaker 2: hour day doesn't seem like that that much work. And
Speaker 2: I know I've listened to your thoughts after long days
Speaker 2: and long games, and you guys are on the way home.
Speaker 2: It's a delight to have to get to do something
Speaker 2: you love. And from that moment, I knew I could
Speaker 2: be in this band. I could do this.
Speaker 1: You were four really hard working dudes. You're not the
Speaker 1: only band that was playing one hundred and fifty shows
Speaker 1: a year, but talk about that grind. You're going around.
Speaker 1: You're writing some songs that would later become globally famous
Speaker 1: and successful, but you're also playing covers. Rim was a
Speaker 1: band you guys looked up to. I'm a massive Ram
Speaker 1: fan back from that same era, but you're playing Rim,
Speaker 1: Police Clash, Smithereens you wrote in the book about covering
Speaker 1: all these different songs, working in your originals, and kind
Speaker 1: of just doing what young, tire least musicians do right,
Speaker 1: going around in a vand playing almost every night.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think we would have probably played
Speaker 2: three hundred shows a year had we been able to
Speaker 2: book them or get clubs that were interested in us.
Speaker 2: We didn't know any better. But on the days that
Speaker 2: we weren't working, we were rehearsing and writing. You know,
Speaker 2: there's not a playbook for musicians. There's not or how
Speaker 2: to be in a band. So we used our sort
Speaker 2: of intellect, a little bit of it, some bravery to
Speaker 2: go long distances, or just the hope the chance of
Speaker 2: getting seen by a record company. We had a good
Speaker 2: work ethic, and we had a talented singer, which at
Speaker 2: the time we probably had no idea how iconic Darius's
Speaker 2: voice would become. But we only knew to work, you know,
Speaker 2: and when you're having fun, like you said, the twelve
Speaker 2: hour days, no matter, driving six hours to play forty
Speaker 2: minute set for fifty dollars in a twelve pack didn't
Speaker 2: seem like a losing proposition. It felt like opportunity, and
Speaker 2: so we always took opportunities, and finally we got lined
Speaker 2: up with a manager, Rusty Harmon, who you know, who
Speaker 2: was able to get us a little organized, and he
Speaker 2: was great at that time for stern up business, which
Speaker 2: we needed to do because we were busy writing songs,
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be managing and booking. And so we worked
Speaker 2: great together, and you know, slowly, surely we got the
Speaker 2: attention of Atlantic Records. And I've mentioned recently to someone
Speaker 2: else that, you know, they said, you guys were so
Speaker 2: lucky to do this. I said, but luck, according to
Speaker 2: the sign in my weightlifting room in high school, said
Speaker 2: luck is where preparation meets opportunity. So I felt like,
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, we were lucky. We had to work
Speaker 2: to put ourselves in a position to win, and then
Speaker 2: the opportunity came along, and maybe that is luck.
Speaker 1: I do want to talk about the business part of
Speaker 1: the music business, but you mentioned songwriting, and you end
Speaker 1: up being the main songwriter on hold my hand, a
Speaker 1: song that is again globally famous. You've got tens of
Speaker 1: thousands of people kind of singing along to this song eventually,
Speaker 1: and you talked about the process of writing a song
Speaker 1: and for those of us that will never experience that.
Speaker 1: Take us inside the head of a songwriter. When things
Speaker 1: are sort of flowing and it seems effortless. You say,
Speaker 1: it's almost zen like, when the words and the chords
Speaker 1: are all kind of just come in together for something
Speaker 1: that ends up being so massively popular.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's again. I often parallel the mind of an athlete,
Speaker 2: or the action of throwing a ball or receiving a ball,
Speaker 2: and the action of trying to put together words and
Speaker 2: melodies and notes. When you catch yourself not having to
Speaker 2: think about it, that's when you're actually doing the thing
Speaker 2: in a zen like fashion, where in a sport it's
Speaker 2: the guys that are in the zone. The zone means
Speaker 2: you're not thinking about all the details, it's just happening.
Speaker 3: And so the zone happened for me when I wrote
Speaker 3: hold my Hand.
Speaker 2: Of course, it was propelling itself forward in a way
Speaker 2: that the melodies were coming. The idea that I had
Speaker 2: in my heart I wanted people to know about was
Speaker 2: coming at the same time, and the right chords were there.
Speaker 2: And man, it doesn't always happen that way. We can
Speaker 2: get so overthinking in our heads. We complicate things, say
Speaker 2: I want to make this sentence, the perfect sentence, Well
Speaker 2: do you have to or can you just say what
Speaker 2: you want to say and hold my hand? Was me
Speaker 2: spontaneously saying something I had been feeling for years. I
Speaker 2: didn't like the heartache around me. I didn't like the oppression.
Speaker 2: I didn't like that people were voiceless and struggling. And
Speaker 2: that's exactly what I said in the song. So there
Speaker 2: were moments like that with Hoody. Since we were all
Speaker 2: novice songwriters that we didn't have to overthink it. We
Speaker 2: didn't know what a radio song sounded like. We'd never
Speaker 2: been on radio, but we knew what was in our hearts,
Speaker 2: so we worked that sort of angle and eventually we
Speaker 2: got to radio.
Speaker 1: You wrote that that song, which is very hopeful and upbeat,
Speaker 1: and you wrote songs across the spectrum as a band,
Speaker 1: but a lot of them were very hopeful and upbeat,
Speaker 1: and you said that you wanted to help ease some
Speaker 1: of the ugliness and the hopelessness that you had witnessed
Speaker 1: and lift people up, and it raised hurt. Your band
Speaker 1: would get shit, I think from people unfairly for trying
Speaker 1: to write happy songs, but you know you were seeing
Speaker 1: one thing, but sort of trying to write about a
Speaker 1: different side of the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so when you're writing just from your hearts
Speaker 2: and you're not interested, as we were not interested about
Speaker 2: image or what the clothes we wore, or what would
Speaker 2: people think about our music, there's also a chance to
Speaker 2: go deep in authenticity at that moment, which I think
Speaker 2: is really gives any song of personality.
Speaker 3: I don't care who you are, what genre you're in, if.
Speaker 2: You can be authentic. You know, there's only one original me.
Speaker 2: There's only four of us original sort of hoody guys
Speaker 2: that make up that the ingredients that are necessary. And
Speaker 2: so we were okay with being ourselves. And yeah, eventually
Speaker 2: we weren't cool. Grunge was We came out of the
Speaker 2: grunge here where it was the opposite of cool. You
Speaker 2: wanted to wear something neat or be rebellious. We weren't
Speaker 2: quite ever that. You know, we had heartache and we
Speaker 2: live lives like everybody. It's disappointing at times, it's unfair
Speaker 2: at times, but you go through and our influences, I'll
Speaker 2: tell you, we're all over the map. That was maybe
Speaker 2: the funniest part that I always look back and go
Speaker 2: We had Darius, who you know, was raised by mainly
Speaker 2: his mom, who sang gospel in church.
Speaker 3: But Darius liked Kiss, Darius liked Merle Haggard. Darius had
Speaker 3: all these weird interests. I was the same, you know,
Speaker 3: my first concert Kiss and Judas preached.
Speaker 2: I love hard rock. I loved ac DC, but I
Speaker 2: also loved Barry Manilow. I also love the cheesy stuff.
Speaker 2: So by the time we get to what do us
Speaker 2: four want to sound like? It could have gone anyway
Speaker 2: in the world. The fact that we were able to
Speaker 2: manage to sound like anything is sometimes surprising because and
Speaker 2: then you add in Dean and Mark's influences, which were
Speaker 2: again all over the place.
Speaker 3: I don't know how we ever landed where we did.
Speaker 1: You know, that's what was cool about music in the nineties, though,
Speaker 1: when you write about eventually a crack review, the debut
Speaker 1: album blows up and sells more than ten million, then
Speaker 1: you win a couple of Grammys, and the people that
Speaker 1: presented you those two Grammys that night, speaking all over
Speaker 1: the spectrum, just shows that, you know, something was present
Speaker 1: in that era in music that it's tougher to achieve now,
Speaker 1: where everybody's so splintered. Everybody's in lanes and silos and
Speaker 1: who passed those two Grammys to you the night that
Speaker 1: you guys won them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was not very manlow, but it was Kiss
Speaker 2: in their full makeup, which was insane because we didn't
Speaker 2: see it coming. We did weren't even to wear that
Speaker 2: was that they were going to be the guys giving
Speaker 2: a trophy. We didn't think we'd win it anyway. But
Speaker 2: and then Tupac, So we've got just the moment where
Speaker 2: you want to freeze yourself in time and say, what
Speaker 2: am I doing here? I get they're there, but how
Speaker 2: in the world did we achieve this this place? And
Speaker 2: you know, like I said, you know, having Kiss be
Speaker 2: my heroes growing up musically, and the imagery before they
Speaker 2: took their makeoff makeup off to have Gene Simmons leaning
Speaker 2: over my shoulder handing me a Grammy. He was like,
Speaker 2: I almost, you know, pee myself. I was just like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was joy, fear or thought
Speaker 2: he might I don't even know, but.
Speaker 1: It's so cool to have different tastes. I mean, I
Speaker 1: was at a Kiss show and mcnichol's arena Denver, Colorado,
Speaker 1: and an older friend got me into Kiss. I really
Speaker 1: wasn't into them. I wass into a lot of other
Speaker 1: kinds of metal, and here I was like first row
Speaker 1: of the balcony leaning over watching these guys on stage,
Speaker 1: and you know, there was sort of, I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe more open mindedness. I think to people how they
Speaker 1: could could dip in and out of really different kinds
Speaker 1: of music back then that I don't know if it's
Speaker 1: harder now. Maybe I'm just older, but it seems that
Speaker 1: the same kind of climate doesn't quite exist anymore as
Speaker 1: it did back in those days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think, I mean, there was some of it,
Speaker 2: but I don't think there was as much a need
Speaker 2: to declare that I am this music, all right, this
Speaker 2: is what represents me. Surely there were niches, you know,
Speaker 2: kids that listened to hard rock, or when new wave
Speaker 2: came around that was the thing, and or if you
Speaker 2: listened there listen to country, which I don't think any
Speaker 2: kids did back then. It was not cool. It was
Speaker 2: what your granddaddy listened to on the farm or something.
Speaker 2: But I've tried to push to my kids, you know,
Speaker 2: who are between nineteen five, kids between nineteen and twenty
Speaker 2: five to keep open minded. You know, we've shown them
Speaker 2: now that through politics and all this divisiveness, that you
Speaker 2: have to declare what you are and that's your lane,
Speaker 2: and don't go into anybody else's lane. And that's the
Speaker 2: guy you don't want to like because he's not in
Speaker 2: your lane. I don't like that, BS. And I've told
Speaker 2: my kids from a musical perspective that the more you
Speaker 2: keep your ears open, lower those walls of judgment, you're
Speaker 2: gonna be gifted with so many different styles, whether it's
Speaker 2: jazz or hip hop or country.
Speaker 3: Don't set boundaries. Don't like think that just because you don't.
Speaker 2: Understand it today, that it's not a great song or
Speaker 2: artistry or attempt at art. Open your mind. I don't
Speaker 2: know how my mine was not always open. I had
Speaker 2: some prejudices. Dance music is something I could never stand
Speaker 2: because I couldn't dance. I was probably jealous of all
Speaker 2: the guys that got to dance with the scantily clad girls.
Speaker 2: And I didn't like the digital feeling that new music
Speaker 2: was rolling into. But I've gotten over a lot of
Speaker 2: those prejudices, and because of that, I can listen to
Speaker 2: the music my kids listen to. I can go back
Speaker 2: and listen to my hard stuff. I can even listen
Speaker 2: to some modern country. Darius is one of my favorite
Speaker 2: country artists. But I don't appreciate all of it. But
Speaker 2: you know, open mind, man. I just love trying to
Speaker 2: teach that to my kids.
Speaker 1: Heymen, spread the word. There's still amazing music being made
Speaker 1: today in all genres, all types, across the spectrumen and
Speaker 1: very readily available. Unlike in the days when you guys
Speaker 1: were scratching and clawing and trying to get a label
Speaker 1: to sign on. You mentioned Atlantic Records. Yeah, eventually they
Speaker 1: were your label, but you were I guess, sort of deceived,
Speaker 1: strung along before that. And you write in your book
Speaker 1: about the music business, you know, just being it's not
Speaker 1: your words of mind a shitty place, but you talk
Speaker 1: about deception, greed, backstabbing, ego. Why does it have to
Speaker 1: be that way? Music is such a beautiful thing, but
Speaker 1: the business surrounding it doesn't seem to be that very often.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a great awakening here. We are all
Speaker 2: as musicians and songwriters. We're trying to get up. We
Speaker 2: would like to have a few more fans and a
Speaker 2: few more streams. That's what we're all trying to do
Speaker 2: and whether we can admit it or not, that's what
Speaker 2: we want a little more reception to our art. And
Speaker 2: eventually you get up into an area where there you
Speaker 2: know there it is a business.
Speaker 1: And but it's a nasty business, right. I mean, David
Speaker 1: Crosby comes and talks to you, guys that you've got
Speaker 1: a rock legend, giving you some advice as you're just
Speaker 1: beginning to smash it with Hoodie, and his words were,
Speaker 1: as you quoted in the book, the music business is
Speaker 1: a monstrous operation and an evil like shit storm, is
Speaker 1: what he said. I mean, this is what you're hearing
Speaker 1: from this icon is you guys want kind of launch
Speaker 1: into this and you've tasted some of that, but you're
Speaker 1: about to taste even more of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and his point was the one I took
Speaker 2: through our career and saved me when I would have
Speaker 2: just been going the saying I quit or this is BS,
Speaker 2: I don't like it. He saved me because he said,
Speaker 2: it's okay that there's the business. There has to be
Speaker 2: the business, so let's not try and pretend there's not
Speaker 2: a business because somebody's counting money. If there's money coming
Speaker 2: in somebody's gonna be counted and somebody's gonna be trying
Speaker 2: to steal it.
Speaker 3: So let's acknowledge there is a business.
Speaker 2: But let's acknowledge why we're sitting in a room together
Speaker 2: making a record with a budget from Atlantic Records is
Speaker 2: because of what it has done to your hearts. You know,
Speaker 2: you guys sit as musicians, We stay up late trying
Speaker 2: to configure chords and lyrics and it's all in our
Speaker 2: heart and it's all mushy. Just be willing to acknowledge
Speaker 2: these two things have to meet at some point if
Speaker 2: you want to have a music career, but be able
Speaker 2: to see that dissection that the business is a yucky
Speaker 2: thing because it's dollars and cents and your music is
Speaker 2: in your heart, and don't let it get far away
Speaker 2: from that. There's a place where there we'll have to
Speaker 2: meet and hopefully you'll have an honest manager who can
Speaker 2: guide you through that and an honest attorney like we've
Speaker 2: had both of those.
Speaker 3: But he was warning us that don't let them get diluted.
Speaker 3: And that's the problem is that some people do.
Speaker 2: They get screwed over in business, or they're not wise
Speaker 2: in business, or they don't want there to be business,
Speaker 2: so they say, screw it, I'm just going to do
Speaker 2: art for art's sake. Well, that might last year, that
Speaker 2: might get you somewhere. But it's okay that there's a
Speaker 2: business in music. But it's eh, it's yucky. You don't
Speaker 2: want to get it too sticky.
Speaker 1: But not just external sony. I mean bands fall apart
Speaker 1: from the inside because success can create you know, jealousy.
Speaker 1: You get huge amounts of money and fame involved, and you, guys,
Speaker 1: I always admire when I was hanging about a little
Speaker 1: bit in the periphery, how much love and respect and
Speaker 1: how unchanged you guys seem to be, at least from
Speaker 1: the outside. Despite this massive success. You go on Letterman
Speaker 1: at Sullivan Theater, the same place where the Beatles broke big.
Speaker 1: You talked about that Dave appearance being massive. If you
Speaker 1: get in a private jet, go down and play a
Speaker 1: show in front of thirty five thousand in your home statement,
Speaker 1: that's a snapshot in the early massive success of Hoodie.
Speaker 1: And yet sometimes you guys, just we're navigating it like
Speaker 1: you're still back in the early days driving around in
Speaker 1: a van. Do you not find that remarkable that you
Speaker 1: kept it together.
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe it's the Crosby's words, you know, seeped
Speaker 2: in enough to say, protect that good thing, but protect
Speaker 2: not only the music and the argu make, but the
Speaker 2: friendships there within a band, because those.
Speaker 3: Are the first that start showing cracks.
Speaker 2: Typically, because if your band is lucky enough to get big,
Speaker 2: believe me, the first thing is going to be happening
Speaker 2: is there's going to people be people in this lead
Speaker 2: singer's ear telling him how great he is and that
Speaker 2: maybe he should dodge those other guys and do something
Speaker 2: better over here and he could make more. So that's
Speaker 2: the first possible things that are going to break down.
Speaker 2: And maybe Crosby was saying, you know, don't forget that either.
Speaker 2: Don't forget that there's a love there for four guys
Speaker 2: that have driven around in a van together, smelling each
Speaker 2: other's feet, sharing couches, chairs, hotel rooms. If we were lucky,
Speaker 2: you know, protect that thing too, and remember that's valuable
Speaker 2: and remembering what you've worked, how hard you've worked, if
Speaker 2: you get lucky enough to be on radio, finally, remember that.
Speaker 2: And I think we did. I think we did a
Speaker 2: good job. Upbringing was super helpful. Our parents all along
Speaker 2: the way made us believe or remember that you family
Speaker 2: is important. So the four of us were, you know,
Speaker 2: step brothers from another mother. We were nothing short of
Speaker 2: brothers the amount of time we spent together. So we
Speaker 2: treated each other as family. We treated our crew that
Speaker 2: we were eventually able to hire as family, and our
Speaker 2: friends out on the road you included. You saw as
Speaker 2: you mentioned how we treated our backstage area. We protected
Speaker 2: that that was very important to us. We didn't let
Speaker 2: some people just bust in there and start defiling it.
Speaker 2: We could defile it plenty of it ourselves as well.
Speaker 1: I mean, we'll get to the part of your life
Speaker 1: where or partying and alcohol sort of control who He
Speaker 1: was a party band, though that the crowds were celebratory
Speaker 1: having a tremendous time partying. You guys were frankly doing
Speaker 1: that too, which was not unique to your band in
Speaker 1: the world of rock and roll. I don't know how
Speaker 1: I speaking of backstage, I got dragged out on stage
Speaker 1: on my birthday and drank a birthday tequila shot for
Speaker 1: you guys, As probably most of the crowds are, who
Speaker 1: the hell is this guy? Game day wasn't very big yet,
Speaker 1: and I was just hanging out there. Who is it
Speaker 1: that guy? Get him off there, get back to the music.
Speaker 1: But it was a fun moment for me, and that
Speaker 1: ended up. I think that was the night I believe
Speaker 1: your manager Rusty's brand new suv and that it partially submerged,
Speaker 1: not in a river, that water was flowing across the
Speaker 1: road as one of those Carolina flash floods that happens,
Speaker 1: and somehow I ended up behind the wheel and it
Speaker 1: never ran again that vehicle. After that fateful night. I
Speaker 1: think Dan Patrick was in there. We might have been
Speaker 1: going to Charles Barkley's party. This was like a v
Speaker 1: Foundation event. I think it's all a little foggy, I
Speaker 1: have to admit.
Speaker 2: No, those are great fun situations you're happy to have
Speaker 2: lived and lived through because they can go bad, believe me.
Speaker 2: And yeah, that was another great night. We just loved
Speaker 2: the party. We just never really wanted that to end.
Speaker 2: So we ushered friend new friends in and Chris follow
Speaker 2: on our stage and yeah, why not.
Speaker 1: Well, partying was a part of your life way before
Speaker 1: Hoody in your book, which is very raw and very
Speaker 1: honest and also very inspiring and a great show of
Speaker 1: strength in your part in resilience. But you said that
Speaker 1: alcohol was always a place of peace for you at
Speaker 1: first when you were a young person, and it brought
Speaker 1: you for you when you were insecure and when you
Speaker 1: had doubts. Alcohol kind of at first kind of made
Speaker 1: them go away. To talk about sort of your early
Speaker 1: experiences with alcohol and how it became more and more
Speaker 1: a force, a dark force in your life.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it signified from age fourteen some sort of
Speaker 2: maybe a couple of things that we're getting away with something.
Speaker 2: So I liked that thrill seeking aspect of it, that hey,
Speaker 2: look at me, look at us. We're doing something illegal
Speaker 2: or unlawful, and we're getting a good feeling and we're
Speaker 2: stealing something from the universe in some way.
Speaker 3: So we like that deviant sort of aspect.
Speaker 2: But for me, over time it became something and our
Speaker 2: society upholds this to a degree. It means we're celebrating
Speaker 2: something right. Maybe it's a hard work day, a hard
Speaker 2: work week, maybe it's an accolade or an achievement. But
Speaker 2: in our society, through ages you to hold up that
Speaker 2: glass sort of the shot, even before our show is
Speaker 2: doing shots, it means we're having a success here in
Speaker 2: this moment. So that was fine through many years to
Speaker 2: have it represent that, and it was accurate, especially when
Speaker 2: we got big and we had dreams that were being
Speaker 2: experienced like we never thought they would be. At those times,
Speaker 2: it was a celebration. And my problem came is when
Speaker 2: things started going downhill, as our career naturally sort of
Speaker 2: descended as the next new band with tighter jeans and
Speaker 2: cooler hair that took our place. I held on to
Speaker 2: the thing that represented celebration and success, which was the Booze.
Speaker 2: And as we went downhill, I think my bandmates were
Speaker 2: able to either accept or sort of develop, and I wasn't.
Speaker 2: So I kept grabbing onto that thing that told me
Speaker 2: we're good, right, we're celebrating, we're at we're still living,
Speaker 2: and we weren't. The true was.
Speaker 3: Our best years of record sales were obviously behind us.
Speaker 2: The empty seats in the auditoriums were growing, and I
Speaker 2: was starting a family and probably a little nervous about that,
Speaker 2: and I didn't know to do that. So I held
Speaker 2: on and I was always the one to bring people
Speaker 2: out and say on our off night, let's go the
Speaker 2: whole crew and the band were bowling, or we're going.
Speaker 3: Out to this place, so let's go to a ball game.
Speaker 2: I never wanted that celebration to end, and so I became,
Speaker 2: you know, what was recreational at some point in my
Speaker 2: life became habitual, which became medicinal, which ultimately became alcoholic.
Speaker 1: You said that you believe that alcohol help you get
Speaker 1: more out of life. Usually it's the exact opposite that
Speaker 1: people come to find out. But you joked about it.
Speaker 1: You're a very funny guy, so you make the jokes,
Speaker 1: you deflect it. You kid yourself that your bandmates, your
Speaker 1: loved ones, your people are not hip to what's going on.
Speaker 1: But actually it becomes more and more obvious to more people,
Speaker 1: and to you as well, and the people that you
Speaker 1: love the most, that this was more than just something recreational.
Speaker 1: This wasn't about fun anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it got dark, and the sad thing was And
Speaker 2: this probably tells my ism, my alcohol ism a little bit,
Speaker 2: is that when I first found out that people were
Speaker 2: onto me, I had heard a few people that were
Speaker 2: thinking about intervening when I realized that they were talking
Speaker 2: about me, and they were worried. He's hanging out with
Speaker 2: some odd hours. He's hanging out with a different group
Speaker 2: of people. He's prone to temper, and it's usually related
Speaker 2: to drugs or alcohol. When I found out that there
Speaker 2: were people around me that were thinking that way, I
Speaker 2: didn't do what a normal person might do, which is say, yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe you're right, maybe I need to look at this
Speaker 2: because it could hurt not only me but my family
Speaker 2: or this organization.
Speaker 3: Instead I went the other way. I said, oh, oh
Speaker 3: my god, they're on to me.
Speaker 2: I've got to hide this better. I've got to have
Speaker 2: some secrets. I gotta hang out with people that are
Speaker 2: even further away that they can't see, because I need
Speaker 2: to do the things I need to do, whether I'm
Speaker 2: putting it down my throat or up my nose or
Speaker 2: wherever that chemical was being inserted. And so I did
Speaker 2: the opposite, and it would take me four darkening years
Speaker 2: to come to understand what that was. That was me
Speaker 2: in denial. It's me not listening to the truth, not
Speaker 2: being self honest. These are basic life principles that as
Speaker 2: a guy in his late thirties, was not accepting. And
Speaker 2: I chose the alcohol because it meant celebration, it meant
Speaker 2: we're okay. And even when it was just me alone,
Speaker 2: in a room. I couldn't give that idea up. And finally,
Speaker 2: you know, I finally had to. But for the most part,
Speaker 2: everyone else seemed to develop into better, more mature thinking,
Speaker 2: and I didn't.
Speaker 1: In the book about the descent, you just said it's
Speaker 1: about a four year period, and you do that in
Speaker 1: great to day and it's very powerful and encourage people
Speaker 1: to read or listen to it. And I enjoyed you
Speaker 1: reading your book because it's covered there just a couple
Speaker 1: of things that everybody wants to know. Sony, with someone
Speaker 1: who has a story like yours, what was the low point?
Speaker 1: Where where do the spiraling kind of hit rock bottom?
Speaker 1: And you finally had to look yourself in the mirror
Speaker 1: and not punch the mirror, which I know you said
Speaker 1: you did a few times, and punch some walls and
Speaker 1: sort of figure out, Hey, no one's going to come
Speaker 1: save me. I've got to do this myself, and I've
Speaker 1: got to start now.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, desperation is an interesting concept that I.
Speaker 3: Think is where I where I was my turning point.
Speaker 2: I got desperate enough after repeated, repeated failures and disappointments
Speaker 2: and hurting people trying to deny it or make it
Speaker 2: seem smaller than it was hurting myself. Eventually, it is
Speaker 2: actually frustrating and confusing to have to keep up this
Speaker 2: facade in my life of lying about where I was
Speaker 2: or how many drinks I had, or who I was with.
Speaker 2: It becomes too much, and I get desperate for peace,
Speaker 2: and I come to a place where I can't take
Speaker 2: it anymore. And I know that people at that point
Speaker 2: in their lives with addiction, we'll seek other answers. And
Speaker 2: I'm thankful that I didn't think suicide was something I
Speaker 2: would shoot for, because I was frustrated enough that I
Speaker 2: didn't know what to do with myself. And so I
Speaker 2: got one last intervention from an unlikely source, which is
Speaker 2: my four year old daughter at the time. And you know,
Speaker 2: you get intervening, interveent interventions from bandmates and loved ones
Speaker 2: and you just look at them like a few You know,
Speaker 2: I got this, I'm under control. But when your four
Speaker 2: year old daughter says, you know, one morning dead, you
Speaker 2: know what are you doing? And she means it purely
Speaker 2: and sort of innocently, Dad, You know what are you
Speaker 2: doing sleeping out here in the not in our house,
Speaker 2: in the studio you've built and you're not inside with
Speaker 2: mom and my brother and having pancakes and watching the
Speaker 2: Mickey Mouse Club. What are you doing? And that pierces
Speaker 2: you so directly in your heart that you can't even
Speaker 2: give her some BS answer. I became desperate. I couldn't
Speaker 2: manage my way out of a conversation with a four
Speaker 2: year old because the truth was the answer to the question.
Speaker 3: When she left and I was left with some idea.
Speaker 2: Of the universe or God and myself, I said, I
Speaker 2: don't know what I'm doing. And that was the first
Speaker 2: time I'd said I don't know what I'm doing. I'm
Speaker 2: not in control anymore. I don't like it. I don't
Speaker 2: know where to go. And as a forty year old
Speaker 2: man with an inflated ego.
Speaker 3: I was burdened with what the hell am I going
Speaker 3: to do?
Speaker 2: And luckily I had one sort of scratch piece of
Speaker 2: paper that a guy had given me previously, a guy
Speaker 2: I used to party with who was willing to extend
Speaker 2: the offer to me, who he saw me declining rapidly,
Speaker 2: he said, you know, call me when when you're ready,
Speaker 2: you know, big wink wink there like, call me when
Speaker 2: you're ready to get some help. And I did. I
Speaker 2: got I found that little piece of paper and call
Speaker 2: that that guy that morning, and that was the beginning
Speaker 2: of you know, surrendering and at least saying I don't
Speaker 2: I don't have enough to do this on my own.
Speaker 2: I need help. And I didn't want to.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to have to do that because society
Speaker 3: was telling me I am successful. I have two Grammys,
Speaker 3: I have a house.
Speaker 2: That I own, I have sports cars in my driveway
Speaker 2: and a family that looks happy.
Speaker 3: Why should I need to ask somebody else for help?
Speaker 2: It's it's an ego issue. It's a power trip. So
Speaker 2: I asked and I received.
Speaker 1: For so many people, you write about it being daunting
Speaker 1: because everything in your life that you had built was
Speaker 1: some way connected to alcohol. So to suddenly break away
Speaker 1: from that grip and obviously was going to be difficult.
Speaker 1: You you talk in the book about another moment where
Speaker 1: you found. This was a Tiger Woods wedding, I believe
Speaker 1: in the Caribbean, and after a bender you found a
Speaker 1: note apparently you had written to yourself, get help today,
Speaker 1: And something that obviously was written in a fog with
Speaker 1: a lack of clarity, was a moment of clarity for
Speaker 1: you when you look back at that, and that's that's powerful.
Speaker 1: You don't even remember writing the note, just just finding it.
Speaker 2: Huh, well, your life. I was getting wet brained, a
Speaker 2: term that is used when someone is either in a
Speaker 2: NonStop you know, besides sleep situation with either drugs or
Speaker 2: alcohol or both, and not taking in enough good nutrition
Speaker 2: mentally and physically. I was getting a little wet and
Speaker 2: so an example of as to what you just said,
Speaker 2: I'm writing myself a note late night, probably drunk and
Speaker 2: frustrated and foggy, and not finding it later and not
Speaker 2: remembering exactly when I wrote it or what I knew
Speaker 2: what it meant it meant. I must have been in
Speaker 2: a real bad state that I don't remember, but I
Speaker 2: was desperate enough and had some outs of desire to
Speaker 2: try and remember that this hurts or this isn't great,
Speaker 2: so I could find this piece of paper later maybe
Speaker 2: And yeah, I look at that, like what is who
Speaker 2: is that? Or who am I even? You know, it's
Speaker 2: distressing in some way, and I think that's one of
Speaker 2: the ingredients that leads to, like I said, the ultimate
Speaker 2: feeling of desperation. I don't know what to do and
Speaker 2: this is just more evidence that I need someone.
Speaker 3: To help me.
Speaker 1: And fast forwarding. I don't want to give the impression
Speaker 1: this was quick or easy. You do decide to go
Speaker 1: to an AA meeting, but you write that on the
Speaker 1: way to the AA meeting you had a couple drinks
Speaker 1: and a couple of lines of coke, which is not
Speaker 1: the textbook way to begin sony a career of sobriety.
Speaker 1: But I guess that was just sort of a last
Speaker 1: hurrah and then before you could kind of step into
Speaker 1: this new world. I'm only laughing because you're laughing at
Speaker 1: the screen in front of me. I know it's not
Speaker 1: really to a lot of people funny at all, but
Speaker 1: I recognize that.
Speaker 2: No, I can look back after some time now and
Speaker 2: writing the book, I was already at a place where
Speaker 2: I could look back and say that looks really dumb
Speaker 2: to say. I'm you know, I've woken up, and I
Speaker 2: called the guy, and I'm going to make this sort
Speaker 2: of obligatory surrender in concept and principle and try and
Speaker 2: find out what people do that are in my situation.
Speaker 2: And you know, fear of being a big driver of
Speaker 2: my life at that time, fear of people knowing who
Speaker 2: I really was, fear of people finding out where I've
Speaker 2: been and the deviant things that I got into as
Speaker 2: the alcoholism progressed a big thing. And my fear, i think,
Speaker 2: honestly in that moment, was what if I go to
Speaker 2: this group of people who were practicing these twelve steps
Speaker 2: and I decide I'm like them and I can't drink anymore. Well,
Speaker 2: that would mean last night was my last drink. I
Speaker 2: can't have that. I've got some jagger master in the
Speaker 2: fridge in the garage. I think I'll see what that
Speaker 2: tastes like. So yeah, and I think I went to
Speaker 2: sort of confess to my buddies that you guys will
Speaker 2: never believe where I'm going. Right now, let's have a
Speaker 2: drink to this. And yeah, it's backwards, asked, thinking for
Speaker 2: sure again evidence that what was my mind? What kind
Speaker 2: of shape was my mind? And at that time to
Speaker 2: think that on my way to receive help, I'm going
Speaker 2: to do the exact thing that has gotten me in
Speaker 2: this terrible situation. That doesn't make sense to anyone that
Speaker 2: doesn't think like the alcoholic and hearing laughter behind it
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense either. Ironically, you know, I got in
Speaker 2: front of a group of people who were laughing. That's
Speaker 2: where I learned that, you know, once we heal in
Speaker 2: any aspect of life, and mental illness is a hot
Speaker 2: topic now too. When there is healing, there can be
Speaker 2: laughter again. And I had forfeited my laughter. I was
Speaker 2: too into deep for too long. And to get laughter
Speaker 2: back and to hear people expressing gratitude in the form of,
Speaker 2: you know, poking fun at one of another and themselves
Speaker 2: was a great release for me. I thought, I think
Speaker 2: I am definitely in the right place because I would
Speaker 2: like to go back to life being fun and silly.
Speaker 1: There's so many layers of the story among them. You
Speaker 1: write in the book about getting divorced to your wife Debbie,
Speaker 1: Mark Brian, your buddy and the guitarist, and Hudie has
Speaker 1: also gotten divorced, I believe, prior to your divorce, and
Speaker 1: his ex wife Laura, and then you guys fall in love,
Speaker 1: and that's an interesting thing, whether or not your your
Speaker 1: rock stars or old friends or not. You do write
Speaker 1: about some awkwardness, some tension and having to work through
Speaker 1: that as you sort of embrace a new love in
Speaker 1: your life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, did we miss a moment there for
Speaker 2: a reality TV show. Chris, I feel like we probably
Speaker 2: just should have got the camera crew in the living
Speaker 2: room and said, let's roll. This thing is going to
Speaker 2: be huge.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like the Brady Bunch. Eventually we end
Speaker 1: up having five kids under one roof, so it's but
Speaker 1: but no, I mean.
Speaker 2: You know, it's one of those things that it's as
Speaker 2: you might imagine. You know, two grown men, and you know,
Speaker 2: an ex wife and now Laura, my new wife, trying
Speaker 2: to negotiate how to raise five kids together in some ways,
Speaker 2: and we all you hear, we've got to do this
Speaker 2: for the kids, or let's put the kids first. But
Speaker 2: you know, that's an easy word to say, but it's
Speaker 2: harder in practice to decide what everyone's new roles are.
Speaker 2: And for Mark and I I think as friends and bandmates,
Speaker 2: we wanted to continue being bandmates.
Speaker 3: We all felt hooting the Bluefish is worth everything.
Speaker 2: Why should we stop our art and our ability to
Speaker 2: raise money for charities and do something we love? Why
Speaker 2: should we stop that?
Speaker 3: Because relational difficulties are changes.
Speaker 2: So I think we never felt like the band would
Speaker 2: fall apart, but we had to decide who we were
Speaker 2: for each other you know, it's one thing to do
Speaker 2: with ex spouses that is difficult, but as friends, I
Speaker 2: don't think a lot of people have to go through that.
Speaker 2: And Mark and I have had to negotiate those those roles.
Speaker 2: Who are we now Okay, now you're step fathering, or
Speaker 2: now we're living in different towns and we're trying to
Speaker 2: do school function and sports events and you know, drivers
Speaker 2: license and kids like it's a mess on some levels
Speaker 2: unless everybody that's in there cooperates and says, well, let's
Speaker 2: answer this question. What's the best thing for that kid
Speaker 2: at this moment. Is it for one of us to
Speaker 2: stand up, as you know, in this time, to be
Speaker 2: the leader. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it meant I had
Speaker 2: to sit back and say I'm just a stepdad. I
Speaker 2: got to sit back and let Mark be the dad.
Speaker 2: And you negotiate all those things in real time through
Speaker 2: the years, and then the next thing, you know, kids
Speaker 2: are having girlfriends and boyfriends and like I said, learning
Speaker 2: to drive cars and then going to college, and we're
Speaker 2: at a place now in hindsight that it's kind of beautiful.
Speaker 2: We all feel like we've.
Speaker 3: Accomplished a thing, you know, to raise kids up to
Speaker 3: certain points where they're out of the house and look
Speaker 3: back and say, man, that worked. Somehow, that insanely crazy
Speaker 3: thing worked.
Speaker 2: And so I think we both have a gratitude for
Speaker 2: each other and for the band and the greater, weirder
Speaker 2: Hooty family.
Speaker 1: That's beautifully put. I mean, it's an evolution process, Thank goodness.
Speaker 1: Perhaps the kids welfare was a factor and decisive one
Speaker 1: of you guys might have come to blows. It might
Speaker 1: have been a different situation if you didn't know the
Speaker 1: welfare of kids in there. But it's awesome. I know
Speaker 1: it took time, it wasn't easy, but you guys seem
Speaker 1: to be in a good place. And you know, back
Speaker 1: in the music front, I mean, Hoody is still together.
Speaker 1: You guys still play big shows. There was a massive
Speaker 1: tour in it was the twenty nineteen which is the
Speaker 1: twenty fifth anniversary of Crank p review the Monster album.
Speaker 1: And you guys do still come together for Hoodie Fest
Speaker 1: and for amazing charity causes and admits Darius's Monster solo
Speaker 1: country Careerly, it's just so there's still plenty of music
Speaker 1: and you still do see your bandmates I guess pretty regularly.
Speaker 2: Then, yeah, you know, life develops and changes and are
Speaker 2: we move and we move on, but there's always an
Speaker 2: understanding that we started this thing as a band for
Speaker 2: a damn good reason because we liked making music and
Speaker 2: we liked each other. And the question came over the years,
Speaker 2: how can you sustain that when you grow in different
Speaker 2: ways and you have families, and then the families become
Speaker 2: broken and then intertwined again, and then Darius has start
Speaker 2: them in country is just another thing along the way
Speaker 2: that what do you do with these changes? And that's
Speaker 2: what it all ends up. The question that we get
Speaker 2: to keep answering or is that what do you do
Speaker 2: with change? It becomes a big theme. I go and
Speaker 2: do a lot speaking and corporate speaking now and it's
Speaker 2: about adapting to change because change keeps happening. And it's
Speaker 2: a great question as we older men get into and
Speaker 2: maybe are more successful at doing, is that you can't
Speaker 2: stop change, so you better figure out how you're going
Speaker 2: to adapt when you have changed that you didn't sign
Speaker 2: up for, maybe change that you caused, maybe things you
Speaker 2: just can't even control.
Speaker 3: Because we want to live happy lives.
Speaker 2: We're here to laugh and smile and have some joy,
Speaker 2: and what do you do when you're handed, you know,
Speaker 2: cards that aren't great. So I've enjoyed learning just enough
Speaker 2: to put a microphone in front of my mouth and
Speaker 2: talk to people like I know what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: None of us know what we're doing. None of us
Speaker 1: really know what's going on and what we're doing. But
Speaker 1: I think you can make a convincing case that you've
Speaker 1: learned some things. And I think one of the powerful
Speaker 1: things about your message is that, Okay, you you keep
Speaker 1: alcohol at bay. Many people out of humility when not
Speaker 1: say beat it, but you keep alcoholism at bay. But
Speaker 1: that doesn't solve all your problems, right, because that was
Speaker 1: covering up some of the things that was numbing you
Speaker 1: to some of the things. I think it's very powerful.
Speaker 1: In your book you talk about this is important for
Speaker 1: anybody confronting addiction, that just getting past that will not
Speaker 1: fix everything. You had to do a lot of hard work, right.
Speaker 1: You wondered if you could write a song. You wondered
Speaker 1: if you could perform while sober, because it had been
Speaker 1: so long since you've been sober.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, fear again, a lot of fear.
Speaker 2: How am I going to do that? Or all the
Speaker 2: things that I've been doing. Do I have to stop
Speaker 2: doing them?
Speaker 3: Or do they become boring? What happens here, Because if you've.
Speaker 2: Centered everything around the party, and the party has to
Speaker 2: dissolve your face with some real questions. And you know,
Speaker 2: I was able to the obsession for alcohol started lowering
Speaker 2: in correlation to me doing sort of a personal house cleaning,
Speaker 2: a personal inventory of you know, really getting honest with
Speaker 2: what my thoughts and my ideas and my fears meant
Speaker 2: to be and how they drove me to bad outcomes.
Speaker 2: You know, honestly, our problems are all the same, Chris right.
Speaker 2: We have fears and doubts, and there's unfairness, and we're
Speaker 2: self centered sometimes and we're prideful. We all have the
Speaker 2: same problems. So when I started looking, I realized, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know how to drink successfully, but mainly my
Speaker 2: problems are just like everybody else's. I'm not that unique
Speaker 2: as I thought I was. But the thing was, I said,
Speaker 2: you want to see, uh, you think my problems are bad,
Speaker 2: you ought to see my solutions, and this is one
Speaker 2: and that really sums up what I got to, which
Speaker 2: was like I have the same problems as everybody. My
Speaker 2: solutions are really crap. I and mostly for many years
Speaker 2: when they got bad, I drank because it temporarily eased them.
Speaker 2: But as anyone is developing figure out what your solutions are,
Speaker 2: it's about how do you face these life things that
Speaker 2: are going to happen? People dying, people disappointing you, you
Speaker 2: disappointing them. How do you face What are you going
Speaker 2: to use as a solution Because we all have the
Speaker 2: same damn problems.
Speaker 1: Faith has become a very powerful part of your life.
Speaker 1: Your music is largely faith based people. You have a
Speaker 1: terrific EP at Remember Tomorrow, which I enjoy listening to.
Speaker 1: And there's a song Sony called Unafraid and one of
Speaker 1: the lines is you want to fight the fear and
Speaker 1: live my life unafraid? And are you able to live
Speaker 1: it free of fear that those old demons might come
Speaker 1: back and try to take control or is there still
Speaker 1: is that what you're trying to be unafraid of at
Speaker 1: this point in your life?
Speaker 2: Well, like was mentioned before, the moment that an athlete
Speaker 2: doesn't have to think about the technique or the moment,
Speaker 2: the songwriter doesn't have to think in a complex way
Speaker 2: about a lyric. It just is flowing out. In a
Speaker 2: similar way, my life today is free of the obsession.
Speaker 2: I don't have to worry about the details of Oh,
Speaker 2: there's a bar down the street, or there's a liquor
Speaker 2: store there, or I'm hanging around the people that I
Speaker 2: used to party with. I don't have to worry about
Speaker 2: those that I can be more in the moment as
Speaker 2: a result of having solved some of my solution difficulties,
Speaker 2: so I get to be free to a large degree.
Speaker 3: If my motivation is right, I can go anywhere I want.
Speaker 2: I can go to the concert where people are partying
Speaker 2: and going next level. I can go backstay to shows
Speaker 2: where people are doing crazy things. I can be in
Speaker 2: a bar, I can do tailgating. And that's the result
Speaker 2: of being free. I've got a serenity that is higher
Speaker 2: and unafraid means that I'm not afraid of going back there.
Speaker 2: There's a mention in a book that says we recoil
Speaker 2: from something from alcohol like a hot flame, like and
Speaker 2: I know today to drink or to pick up a
Speaker 2: drug or a chemical is like it would be like
Speaker 2: grabbing a hot flame. So I'm not too worried about
Speaker 2: that hot flame anymore. I've got that much sense. The
Speaker 2: way I solve it is trying to share it with
Speaker 2: other guys. Who are you trying to get in on
Speaker 2: this journey? And that helps me remember who I've been.
Speaker 2: That helps me remember what the solutions are and unafraid
Speaker 2: a song I'm so happy to sing at all of
Speaker 2: my events reminds people that we do have to get
Speaker 2: through some things. We do have to find better solutions.
Speaker 2: Some of our ideas that we've been in love with
Speaker 2: that thought works so well, may not be great ideas.
Speaker 2: But when we can find the better solutions, we don't
Speaker 2: have to live in fear. We can live in a
Speaker 2: higher piece and on a higher plane. And that's what
Speaker 2: my spirituality is today, finding out what piece means, how
Speaker 2: I can achieve it. That I can't live a fully
Speaker 2: peaceful life, that's unrealistic too. We do have suffering as humans,
Speaker 2: but I'm afraid I want to give people an ounce
Speaker 2: of courage to say, you take that leap, even if
Speaker 2: it's facing something you've been trying to ignore, you know.
Speaker 2: So that's one of my favorites. I'm glad you lashed
Speaker 2: out of that one. It's been a fun one for me.
Speaker 1: I like one of the things you say you'll live
Speaker 1: by now feel it and heal it. In other words,
Speaker 1: don't try to push it aside, don't try to deny
Speaker 1: those things, whatever lightness or darkness they bring, and then
Speaker 1: heal it. But the process of working your way to
Speaker 1: a place where that's possible has been It has been
Speaker 1: cool to hear you read about and and talk about here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're not you know, we men are not gifted
Speaker 2: unfortunately with feeling things and healing things. We don't want
Speaker 2: to even talk about them. And I think that's part
Speaker 2: of our unfortunate nature is compared to the females, is
Speaker 2: that they're willing to talk. Let's be honest.
Speaker 3: They can talk through some things, and they can get
Speaker 3: things up. They're willing to feel it and talk about it.
Speaker 2: And we, as men, and I talk to a lot
Speaker 2: of men's group, aren't quite wired that way.
Speaker 3: And so I think we have to work a little
Speaker 3: extra hard to say, gosh, Chris.
Speaker 2: What are your feelings now? And you know, are you hurt?
Speaker 2: Are you afraid? We don't want to do that, but
Speaker 2: we need to do that. And so the speeches I
Speaker 2: get up to give, or the moments I get with
Speaker 2: a microphone are to encourage a lot of the men, especially,
Speaker 2: come on, guys, we got to learn to talk. This
Speaker 2: is a skill we might have to learn.
Speaker 3: Late in life, but when do need to grab hold of.
Speaker 1: It, that's powerful the course of your life. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you're a reflective person. All the different chapters,
Speaker 1: all the different piece of the tapestry that we all have,
Speaker 1: it's pretty remarkable. I would like to end with a
Speaker 1: funny story that you tell in the book. I mean,
Speaker 1: you talk about during those those amazing years of the
Speaker 1: rise of hoodie, you're playing a gig while watching a
Speaker 1: US soccer game against Columbia. You've got a monitor there
Speaker 1: that Clintons are in the house. You're playing this gig
Speaker 1: while watching soccer. That's a very faithful game that the
Speaker 1: US soccer fans might remember. We won the game over Columbia.
Speaker 1: It was an own goal by Andres Escobar, who ended
Speaker 1: up going back to Columbia and being murdered because of that.
Speaker 1: But this is the idea that that and sports and
Speaker 1: music we're always intertwined. For you guys, you're playing a gig,
Speaker 1: you're watching soccer game, and then after that, years later,
Speaker 1: Alexi Lalas, who was part of that group ends up
Speaker 1: opening for your band in Europe. Yes, he's a pretty
Speaker 1: damn good musician actually, as well as being a Fox
Speaker 1: broadcaster and an ex soccer and and practical jokes are
Speaker 1: a part of of the end of tour rituals, right
Speaker 1: with the opening band and the headliner. I've seen I've
Speaker 1: seen a few of them unfold. We we don't have
Speaker 1: time to get into it. But Radiohead and Ram played
Speaker 1: jokes on each other. So Alexi's band opens for you guys,
Speaker 1: and then ends up pranking you pretty good. It's one
Speaker 1: of the better ones I've heard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they really thought it out. It took a little
Speaker 2: bit of work as well. Sometimes you don't have to
Speaker 2: do much, it's just running on stage and being disturbing,
Speaker 2: but sometimes it includes outfits or bigger pranks that need
Speaker 2: some thinking. And theirs was great because they wanted to
Speaker 2: come out and interrupt our song.
Speaker 3: Which is a typical way to to uh do it.
Speaker 2: But and so they do a little cute little dance
Speaker 2: that's during the only one to be with you, And
Speaker 2: there's sort of two of them on either side of
Speaker 2: Dean and Mark and I'm back there laughing. Oh, they're
Speaker 2: doing another kind of stripping. They're stripping down. Well, they're
Speaker 2: doing little stripped easier people. This is getting interesting. They're
Speaker 2: in their boxers and they're continuing to dance, and the
Speaker 2: crowd is now really drawn in. They're like, oh, this
Speaker 2: is going to be a good prank. And as they
Speaker 2: do a sort of coordinated dance move, they turn around
Speaker 2: with their backsides to the audience and drop trial and
Speaker 2: I can't see that they have written across all of
Speaker 2: their arses only want to be with you in It's
Speaker 2: one of those times where you're thankful to be not
Speaker 2: in the audience being the drummer. And this moment is
Speaker 2: even made better imagining later, which Alectui recounted tom when
Speaker 2: they realize, oh, we've written sharpies on our asses. Now
Speaker 2: we have to get this off. And that's what true
Speaker 2: friends and bandmates are for, ladies and gentlemen. Is who
Speaker 2: is willing to scrub the title of a hoodie the
Speaker 2: Buffers song off? Your bandmates?
Speaker 1: But your life has been filled with the silliness and
Speaker 1: fun but also some seriousness and deep power. And thanks
Speaker 1: for bringing all of it, Sony and delivering the message.
Speaker 1: And it's great to see in a great place. I'd
Speaker 1: love to see you actually in person and reconnect because
Speaker 1: we do share some common things. But you're out there
Speaker 1: doing some great, great stuff and inspiring people and delivering
Speaker 1: that message. So thanks for sharing it with me today.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, y'all.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that conversation. You know, one of the
Speaker 1: joys of a podcast is, besides getting to know new people,
Speaker 1: once in a while, if you're lucky, you can reconnect
Speaker 1: with a very old acquaintance. I know, you know the
Speaker 1: feeling maybe you haven't talked to him in many years,
Speaker 1: but you just start talking and it clicks and it
Speaker 1: feels great. Please check out Sony's book Swimming with the Blowfish,
Speaker 1: and his EP is called Remember Tomorrow. You can follow
Speaker 1: him on Instagram at Sony Time sixty four and it's
Speaker 1: s O Ni Time sixty four. As always, grateful to
Speaker 1: my co executive producer Jennifer Dempster and other folks on Octagon.
Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon.