WEBVTT - To Be Less Polarized, We Must Humanize (with Esther Perel) 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:10.640 Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a show 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.720 where we reimagine the word citizen as a verb and 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:19.560 remind ourselves how to wield our collective power. I'm Baritone Day. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.880 In the US, we have elected a new president, Joe Biden, 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.919 and a new Vice president, Kamala Harris. I'm still writing 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.520 the emotions of it all. I didn't realize how much 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.040 tension I have been holding for four years until that 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:45.000 announcement came, and I just cried with relief. I'm talking ugly, 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:52.360 ugly crying, just wailing tears intermittently throughout Saturday. Not because 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.880 all the country's problems are solved, far from that, but 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:58.480 because now I believe we have a fighting chance to 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.440 build a democracy word of us all, a democracy that 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.399 works for us all, something we've been striving to achieve 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:09.919 for this country's entire history, never quite made it. Plus, 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.080 it was nice to see people flooding the streets, not 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:16.880 to protest unjust police, but to celebrate the exercise of 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:21.600 people power. We set records, y'll, even those who voted 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.080 differently from us, we showed up and we used our power. 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:30.480 Well done, citizens, as of this recording, with some vote 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.600 counting still happening, but not enough to change the outcome. 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.720 A record seventy four million people voted for Joe Biden 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.880 for president. It's the most votes any US presidential candidate 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:47.800 has ever received. The second most votes ever received went 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:54.360 to Donald Trump in this same election. So we are 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:58.760 a nation decided, and we are a nation divided. The 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:03.240 seventy million votes for Trump aren't just numbers. They're people, 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.240 people we work with, live with, and love. How do 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.240 we do that? How do they do that? How do 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.639 we citizen with people who think so differently from us? 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.560 These aren't just questions for Biden voters, but for Trump 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.720 voters and non voters too. We're all in the same 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.520 country together. I've got just the person to help us 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:30.520 with that. In this our six and final episode of 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.839 season one, what you mean you're could have stopped? There's 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.440 an episode break. There's a season break. Huh, Yeah, that's right. 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.360 We're wrapping this thing. More on the future of this 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.760 show on the other side of the interview, that's what 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.520 we call it, Deezer. Meanwhile, in this episode, we had 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.920 taken it back to the beginning and our very first episode. 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.720 Valerie Coo reminded us of the power of revolutionary love 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.800 in How We Citizen, and she helped us see that 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.920 holding relationships with others is a key part of what 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:08.200 it means to citizen. In this episode, I spoke with 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:12.840 one of the world's most insightful voices on modern relationships. 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.919 She's a psychotherapist and best selling author of two books, 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.839 Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs. Her TED 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.960 talks have garnered over thirty million views and counting, and 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.480 she executive produces and hosts two of her own podcast, 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.680 How's Work and Where Should We Begin? She likes putting 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:35.480 questions in the titles of her podcast, and I liked 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:41.040 putting questions to her in our podcast. Yeah, we brought 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:46.520 in a relationship therapist, a certified relationship therapists, to help 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.880 us close out this season as we try to build 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.200 and heal relationships with the people in our country and 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:57.400 in our lives who made very different choices during the election. 0:03:58.400 --> 0:03:59.880 I'm gonna tell you right up, this is one of 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:03.000 the those episodes you gotta listen to the whole thing, 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.280 and you're probably gonna want to listen a few times. 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:17.599 Here is my conversation with as their parrel one of 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:22.200 our pillars of what it means to citizen is, you know, 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:26.520 showing up and participating and being an investing in relationships 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.480 because we don't citizen alone and includes being a relationship 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:34.040 with ourselves but also with others. Your work is there 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:38.240 is anchored in the idea of relationships, and I'd love 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.880 to know your take on what does it practically mean 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.880 for someone to invest in a relationship? What does it 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.320 mean for us to invest in relationships with people around us? 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:53.440 You know, traditionally there was a way that looked at 0:04:53.520 --> 0:05:00.640 societies and divided them between task oriented societies and relationship 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:07.080 oriented societies. To ask oriented often meant the priorities were 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:13.800 given to time as a finite unit, to achievements, to accomplishment, 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:17.600 to what can be measured, to what can be quantified, 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:22.839 and so forth. And relationships where basically everything having to 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:29.839 do with loyalty, legacy, harmony, discords stuff that is really 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:34.520 qualitative rather than quantitative. Maybe I should have started with 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.599 that very simple sentence. The quality of your life is 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.839 determined by the quality of your relationships. And this is 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:47.640 true both at home and at work. So no matter 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:52.000 what you do, at some point you will ask yourself 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.599 at the last moment did I love and was I loved? 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.960 That will mean that you had invested in your relationship, 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.520 no matter what else you've done. Some people call it 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:08.560 the difference between a resume and a eulogy. Mhm. We 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.960 often here and we even in the show, we promote 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.640 the idea of investing in a relationship, of putting your 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:21.440 relationship first, of giving to the relationship. What does that 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.400 mean practically speaking? What does that look like? You know? 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.960 Let me put it like this growing up, this is 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:32.440 for everybody here. What messages did you receive about relationships 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.360 where they're central in your family life and in your 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:40.840 culture or were they're more peripheral. And if they were central, 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.320 what were the messages that accompanied it? As in, you 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.719 can trust people, people are there to help you. You 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:50.800 belong to a group. Your needs just are not just 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.719 your own, Your achievements are not just your own. You 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:57.640 are part of a larger network of connections or where 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.719 you talked more rely on your own to fit. Nobody 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:03.520 will ever tell you what to do as best as 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:08.760 you can tell yourself. Self reliance and autonomy one set 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:14.440 of models about relationships or loyalty and interdependence. Another set 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:18.920 of messages about and everybody here will pretty much be 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:22.960 able to know what was the emphasis of the messages. 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.800 Not always spoken by your parents like that. You know, 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.640 sometimes just by the sheer circumstances of your life, you 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:36.440 had to learn autonomy and self reliance versus interdependence. But 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:41.200 to me, this distinction about how we frame relationships and 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.560 therefore how we invest in them. This is a very 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:49.560 useful frame. Mm hmm. Hearing that, I jump immediately to 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:56.400 national characterization and you know, Western, Eastern, US, other parts 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.200 of the world in terms of the individual focus, and 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:03.000 you only have your self to rely on Protestantism. Yeah, 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.960 there you go. So there's the origin. It's a combination 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:10.240 of capitalism and Protestantism. You know, this notion that you 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.600 are at the center. It's an I versus a we. 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.320 Do I conceive of myself as an eye that reaches 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.200 out to we? Or do I conceive of myself as 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:22.440 part of a we in which I try to develop 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:26.560 an eye? Yeah, And it's not either or. There's a 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.760 relationship between those two. There's a relation. And many of 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.080 us have lived in both cultures. Many of us have 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:38.440 absorbed both systems, both their values attached to many people 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.920 today in the world have grown up in one place 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.880 and moved to another, you know, inside the US as well, 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:48.600 so we inhabit sometimes more than one value system when 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.679 it comes to relationships. Give you a great example when 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.040 I came to the US and I was working a 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:58.679 lot with mixed marriages, interracial, intercultural, inter religious marriages, and 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.560 many times the person was struggling between their ideology of love, 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:07.640 which was free choice, enterprise, and their loyalty to the family, 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:09.760 to the religion, to the culture, you know, to the 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.280 larger forces. And people would say, you should do what's 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.280 right for you, and I knew that that was a 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:22.240 very particular frame in contrast with people who lived with 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.760 the notion that what's right for you never exists separately 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.600 from how it affects others, you know. So they felt 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.320 terribly guilty about being selfish about doing what's read and 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:37.120 other people. You can't let other people dictate to you. Well, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.680 this is a major division cross culturally. This is a 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:45.560 division inside this country, inside families, and inside ourselves. It's 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:50.480 a perfect example. I want to talk about division. We've 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:55.400 seen an experienced an extraordinary amount of political division in 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.680 the United States of late especially over the past four years, 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:04.000 and we've seen it show up steep into our most 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:08.840 cherished relationships, are family relationships, are intimate relationships. What have 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.560 you seen in your own practice, maybe amongst your colleagues, 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:17.120 about how our political divisions are showing up in our 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:21.560 relationships and how the politics has become more personal. One 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.200 of the basic ways that you experience divisions in relationships 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.959 is when there is a loss of a shared sense 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:31.240 of reality. This is what you've see in couples, in 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.600 families all the time, when there is you know, no 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.880 shared well off facts. And then that's you know, wrote 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.160 this week that we've ceased to be a country in 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:45.760 disagreement and we're now a country of mutual disgust. A 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:51.160 deep division is often marked by contempt. Content is often 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:55.920 the killer in relationships. You can have criticism, you can 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.720 have defensiveness, you can have stone warding, you can have 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.840 gaslighting even but contempt to actually guess that it goes off. 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.840 And with content contempt, this kind of the you've lost 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:10.960 the basic respect for the other person and for their humanity. 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.320 That is part of what we have and it's happening 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.760 inside families as much as it's happening in the society. 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.760 In the broader sense, people live with a sense of betrayal, 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:27.080 and betrayal generally represents the shattering of our shared assumptions. 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:30.320 I thought we were in this together. I thought you 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:33.240 had my back. I thought, you know, so there is 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.920 that and to me, you know, it's an interesting thing 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.800 to see on a macro level, that which you often 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.520 see when you work as a couples therapists, which I do, 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.920 when you work with very polarized couples, in which what 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.400 else goes into division in a couple. I tend to 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.439 think of myself as a rainbow. I think you are 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.520 black and white. I think of myself as complex. I 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.640 see you as one dimensional. I think that if I 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:06.360 behave poorly, it's because there are circumstances. If you behave poorly, 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:11.200 it's characteriological that is part of a of a polarization. 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.920 I don't really care to listen to you because I 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.400 experience everything you say as a threat and I'm in 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.600 fight flight mode, and I think that you know, if 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:23.920 we did it your way, you know, it would be 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:28.319 a disaster. You are willing to destroy everything which we 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:31.040 com planet do you live on? How can you even 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.520 think like this? And it's mutual. You say the same 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.640 thing to me with those words or other words. So 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.440 that's what happens in a polarized couple is that you 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:46.200 have instant escalation and a fundamental belief that the facts 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:49.160 actually matter. But at some point the feelings and the 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.960 form supersede the content. You know, if we start to 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.880 talk with dismissal, it doesn't matter if we're talking about 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.080 the economy or about green peace. In the engineer, it 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.640 the form precedes the content. If what I think is 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:05.880 that you have no idea what you're talking about, we 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.040 can talk about anything. I will still think that you 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.320 have no idea what you're talking about. If you think 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.880 I'm even if you think I don't care, if you 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.200 think I'm going to bring your demise, it doesn't matter 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:20.640 the subject matter. You will have the filter because we 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.719 see what we expect to see in your experience with 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:30.240 these couples. What's the threshold for arriving at a place 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:35.800 of contempt and dismissal? How does that escalation happen? How 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.440 do you know your past that point? If I fundamentally 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:44.600 distrust you and I think that you're just out for yourself, 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:50.360 that you don't take my well being into account. I 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:54.440 see you as a potential danger. That's part of why 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:56.760 I'm going to fight flight. You are a threat to me. 0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.280 You're a threat to me because you're black. You're a 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:01.160 threat to me as you're a man. You're a threat 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:03.280 to me because you're rich, because you're poor, or because 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.240 you're coming to take my job, or because you are 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:11.599 bringing indecency into our society, or because you're bringing nationalism 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:15.680 and populism into our society. You know, in political reunite 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.400 has other names than in a marriage, but basically, you 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.120 are danger. When you are danger, the first thing I 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:27.240 do is I defend, and if I can, I attack 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:34.720 a counterattack. I blame blame defense, blame defense, and I deflect. 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.200 In a polarized relationship, I never think I have the 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:44.920 responsibility for anything. It's you who make me do what 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.440 I do, which I wouldn't do if you were different 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.320 and didn't make me. And then you can you can 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.480 translate it into quanity. I am the way I am 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:58.480 because of you. If you hadn't done this, I wouldn't be. 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:03.640 So it's what we call hostile dependence. I need you 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.880 to change, but since you don't, I am angry at you, 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.200 and the more I'm angry at you, of course, the 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:11.640 less you're gonna do, and the less you're gonna do, 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:13.840 and the more I'm going to need you to do, 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.160 you knowder for anything to change, which you're not doing, 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.680 so I get enraged. So that's a vicious cycle. That's 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:26.240 an understatement. But yes, it's a negative reinforcement. Yes, it's 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.160 a complete negative feedback loop. It's it's the route of escalation. 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.240 And when you see it on the national level, it's 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:37.040 basically when you watch Trump and Pelosi, that's what you get. 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:42.840 So clearly there have been some efforts that you've been 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.000 a part of that. You've seen that the human species 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.760 has been through in our relationships before, to also repair, 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:53.760 to return from a state of mutual disgust and contempt 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.040 one of more trust and more partnership rather than threat. 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:02.720 What is that road look like, the return to mutual 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.920 respect in humanity? You know, I will respond to you 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:10.280 on two levels. One is in my practice as a therapist, 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.680 and then one is really in other things that I 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:17.560 have been aware of, not always fully involved with. But 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:22.080 I have looked at South Africa, I have looked at 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.880 the groups that come together as mothers or fathers of 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:30.640 Israeli and Palestinian children, people who could hate each other 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:36.680 for life, and who decides that they have no choice. 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.600 They won't be able to live well and sleep well 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.880 unless they find some kind of dialogue with those other people, 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.760 and they come together as mothers and fathers who lost 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:57.680 their children, and that supersedes everything about this most intractable 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.040 political conflict. So take me through the first part. Then 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.320 as a therapist. So as a therapist, you know, the 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.520 first thing I say is if you continue to repeat 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:13.040 the same thing, the more you say what you say, 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:16.240 the more your partner is going to say the exact 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:20.560 thing that you don't want them to say. Meaning we 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.040 have a knack of drawing from the other side the 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:28.000 very thing which we actually don't want. If you continue 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.840 to say things are really good, things are better than ever, 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:35.120 your partner is going to answer they're awful. So if 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.919 you want to hear something else, maybe you change what 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.000 you've been saying. So that doesn't mean you say things 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.359 are awful. That means you say, obviously you have a 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:49.919 different experience. Let me listen very hard, very hard for 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.600 us to listen to stuff that is fundamentally the opposite 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.280 of how we see it. But that's the exercise. Then 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.560 you step out of the kind of calcification of position shows, 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:04.320 you know. Then you really start to pay attention of 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.600 how you treat the other one as welle dimensional and 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.800 how you think that you are much more layered and 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.960 nuanced and complex, you know. So that's a big one. 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.920 Then you find some common ground. The common ground at 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:23.560 this moment is that people feel deeply unsettled and stressed 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:28.679 out and exhausted. Well, let's start with that. Why we 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.520 are stressed out. We may say it's your fault and 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.560 the other one says it's your fault, like in a relationship, 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.399 but the fact is none of us are sleeping that 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.000 well for the moment, you know. Then you go and 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.680 you check your perception gap. This notion that people often 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.000 have in a relationship where they think that the other 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:51.359 person is completely on the other side, like there's absolutely 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:55.000 nothing we see how to eye here, and yet both 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.879 of you wan't good for your child. One of you 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.440 says we need to punish him, the other one says 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.760 we shouldn't be so harsh on him. You are locked 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.000 on this one. But the one thing we know is 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.840 that both of you feel at the loss, and both 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:11.919 of you would do anything to get your child to 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.840 stop using drugs. For example, this is a classic you know, 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.439 and people have divorced over it. People. And now the 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.800 interesting thing is the only way you can only focus 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.959 on the punishment is because you've got someone here who 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:30.080 is actually holding the value of the kindness or the 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:32.600 empathy if you want. And the only way that you 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.560 can only talk about the empathy is because you've got 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.919 someone here who is talking about the limits. And you 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:44.120 actually need each other because basically your kids needs both. 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.840 So instead of just thinking you're right, how about you 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:53.080 try to be wise? It's better to be wise than right. Yeah. 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.879 There's a phrase that I started saying the people and 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.080 some of my own work, which is now, do you 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.960 want to be right or do you want to be effective? Yeah? 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:03.960 And you know that the feeling of righteousness is powerful, 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.320 but its impact is pretty limited in terms of the 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:20.119 outcomes you want. There's a requirement in the steps that 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:24.440 you've outlined to slow down and to want to do 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:29.680 it and to want it and to not say you first, 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.600 why should I you have done nothing? Why should I 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.000 be nice? You know? That's part of the indignation to right. 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:41.200 This is a very critical moment. So yeah, I want 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:45.080 to go there because in the United States, we've had 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:52.240 years of attempts at outreach, at reconciliation, at deep empathy. 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.840 After it felt to me like the New York Times 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.840 devoted a whole new beat to understanding the quote unquote 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:04.879 working class man in America. And I see all of 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:11.800 this effort at recognition, at de escalation, at recomplexifying the 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.880 other into a human I see it coming heavily from 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:19.840 the side of liberals and progressive who feels some shame, 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:24.359 some guilt, some compassion. We must have gotten something wrong 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.320 about the country we're living in. So let's go to 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.639 western Pennsylvania and find a coal miner to talk to 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.600 and understand his plate. And I've searched, and I'm not 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:40.280 saying it's exhausted, but I have very few examples of 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.080 that coming from the right end of the political spectrum. 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:47.200 I haven't seen the humility demonstrated there to say, maybe 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.800 we don't understand the country we're in. Maybe we should 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.840 go to Brooklyn and understand and have a latte with 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:55.440 some hipster and see what's really going on. Their mind, 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:58.240 or a black person in Alabama and see what's really 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:01.480 on her mind. One you can tell me if my 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:04.639 characterization is off, if you've seen something different. I'm happy 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.480 to be wrong, truly, But beyond that, when one side 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.520 feels like they're putting all the work in and the 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:15.080 other side isn't, how do you move out of that 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:19.679 sense and that possible reality. So it's very interesting because 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:23.560 this could be a complete description inside a couple where 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:27.160 one person says, I bring up all the conversations. I'm 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.600 the one who's always asking questions. I'm the one who's 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.200 trying to improve the relationship, and my partner just sits 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:35.840 there and just thinks that you know, he or she 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.960 is beyond reproach. You know I can do no right 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:43.159 and the other can do no wrong. Why should I? 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.840 And sometimes I say, you don't have to. But the 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:49.840 world you want to live in, you could live with 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.080 yourself if you did. It's the person you want to 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:57.399 be now. From there, I can play the metaphor and 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.960 the analogy of marriage and relationship ships. But I also 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:06.119 understand that when nationalism and populism rises, there's a limit 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:10.680 to the analogy. I think that things could completely improve, 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:15.359 and your partner may still think that it's because you improved, 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:18.520 and you would love to for them to say they 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:21.840 made a mistake too, but they actually still think of 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:28.040 themselves in this entitled righteous way in which they think 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:31.359 you're the one who came to your senses. And that's 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:34.359 where I say, you want to share reality or you 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.800 just want to say. My partner thinks that our marriage 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:42.320 improved because I changed, because I stopped yelling, because I 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:46.399 stopped being critical, because I finally saw whatever he or 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:50.159 she was saying, And I will say that's how he 0:23:50.320 --> 0:23:53.720 views it, and I'm willing for him or her to 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:57.240 think that I made all the changes. That's actually a compliment. 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:02.320 But if I think you are still basically blaming me, 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:06.320 you're still holding me responsible for everything. So before it 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:08.720 was you were the problem, now it's you are the solution. 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.719 You are the solution. Is also implied you were the problem. 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:15.840 I have to be able to not care and just 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:18.800 say that's okay. I accept the compliment. I did all 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:23.680 the work. Basically, my partner thinks completely different than me 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:27.520 about what improved our relationship, and I let him think 0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:32.080 this way because it serves me. I have an autonomy 0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:35.680 to my thinking, I no longer need him to actually 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:38.960 think like me in order to have a shared reality. 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:41.720 And that is a whole other way of going about 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:47.199 this different bridge. Yeah, and I don't know if that 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:50.480 is done on a national level, but I'll tell you something. 0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:53.439 There's a story that just happened to me recently that 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:56.040 I've been wanting to share. Jack and I have a 0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:59.560 flat tire. We're on the highway for four hours. Nobody 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:01.880 can pick you up anymore because we're in the middle 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:05.760 of this highway. A pickup truck arrives and the guy 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:08.680 basically looks at us and he's a foreigner who got 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:13.320 asylum who you would think, you know, you're an immigrant 0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:17.639 with that had this kind of history for sure, bad assumption. 0:25:19.119 --> 0:25:21.679 He looks at us and he says, they're an elderly couple, 0:25:21.760 --> 0:25:24.240 that we shouldn't let's go alone to the city. They 0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:26.200 only have a doughnut. He drives us for three and 0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:28.119 a half hours, And for three and a half hours, 0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:33.280 it's like being with Fox News, every trope, everything, everything. 0:25:33.400 --> 0:25:35.679 He's screaming. He's so screaming that I'm afraid he's going 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:37.840 to run off the road with this truck and our 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:42.040 car in the back, and Jack just continues to listen 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:45.280 to him, like just kindly listening and so curious like 0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:48.400 how he did it. You would think it's like masochistic. 0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:52.160 But when we arrived, we gave him a big tip 0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:55.439 and he looks at us and he says, you're giving 0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:59.320 me money even though you know my beliefs and we 0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:02.080 are probably be really really quite different than what we 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:05.159 think about. And I said to him, I'm not giving 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:07.679 your money for your beliefs and giving your money for 0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:13.000 your behavior. And you were kind, and he says, I 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:16.879