1 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a show 2 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: where we reimagine the word citizen as a verb and 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: remind ourselves how to wield our collective power. I'm Baritone Day. 4 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: In the US, we have elected a new president, Joe Biden, 5 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: and a new Vice president, Kamala Harris. I'm still writing 6 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: the emotions of it all. I didn't realize how much 7 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: tension I have been holding for four years until that 8 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: announcement came, and I just cried with relief. I'm talking ugly, 9 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: ugly crying, just wailing tears intermittently throughout Saturday. Not because 10 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: all the country's problems are solved, far from that, but 11 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: because now I believe we have a fighting chance to 12 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: build a democracy word of us all, a democracy that 13 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: works for us all, something we've been striving to achieve 14 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,919 Speaker 1: for this country's entire history, never quite made it. Plus, 15 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: it was nice to see people flooding the streets, not 16 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: to protest unjust police, but to celebrate the exercise of 17 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: people power. We set records, y'll, even those who voted 18 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: differently from us, we showed up and we used our power. 19 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: Well done, citizens, as of this recording, with some vote 20 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: counting still happening, but not enough to change the outcome. 21 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: A record seventy four million people voted for Joe Biden 22 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: for president. It's the most votes any US presidential candidate 23 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: has ever received. The second most votes ever received went 24 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: to Donald Trump in this same election. So we are 25 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: a nation decided, and we are a nation divided. The 26 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: seventy million votes for Trump aren't just numbers. They're people, 27 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: people we work with, live with, and love. How do 28 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: we do that? How do they do that? How do 29 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: we citizen with people who think so differently from us? 30 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: These aren't just questions for Biden voters, but for Trump 31 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: voters and non voters too. We're all in the same 32 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: country together. I've got just the person to help us 33 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: with that. In this our six and final episode of 34 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,839 Speaker 1: season one, what you mean you're could have stopped? There's 35 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: an episode break. There's a season break. Huh, Yeah, that's right. 36 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: We're wrapping this thing. More on the future of this 37 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: show on the other side of the interview, that's what 38 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: we call it, Deezer. Meanwhile, in this episode, we had 39 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: taken it back to the beginning and our very first episode. 40 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: Valerie Coo reminded us of the power of revolutionary love 41 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: in How We Citizen, and she helped us see that 42 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: holding relationships with others is a key part of what 43 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: it means to citizen. In this episode, I spoke with 44 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: one of the world's most insightful voices on modern relationships. 45 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: She's a psychotherapist and best selling author of two books, 46 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,839 Speaker 1: Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs. Her TED 47 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: talks have garnered over thirty million views and counting, and 48 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: she executive produces and hosts two of her own podcast, 49 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: How's Work and Where Should We Begin? She likes putting 50 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: questions in the titles of her podcast, and I liked 51 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: putting questions to her in our podcast. Yeah, we brought 52 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: in a relationship therapist, a certified relationship therapists, to help 53 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: us close out this season as we try to build 54 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: and heal relationships with the people in our country and 55 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: in our lives who made very different choices during the election. 56 00:03:58,400 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you right up, this is one of 57 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: the those episodes you gotta listen to the whole thing, 58 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: and you're probably gonna want to listen a few times. 59 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: Here is my conversation with as their parrel one of 60 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: our pillars of what it means to citizen is, you know, 61 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: showing up and participating and being an investing in relationships 62 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: because we don't citizen alone and includes being a relationship 63 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: with ourselves but also with others. Your work is there 64 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: is anchored in the idea of relationships, and I'd love 65 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: to know your take on what does it practically mean 66 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: for someone to invest in a relationship? What does it 67 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: mean for us to invest in relationships with people around us? 68 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: You know, traditionally there was a way that looked at 69 00:04:53,520 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: societies and divided them between task oriented societies and relationship 70 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: oriented societies. To ask oriented often meant the priorities were 71 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: given to time as a finite unit, to achievements, to accomplishment, 72 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: to what can be measured, to what can be quantified, 73 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: and so forth. And relationships where basically everything having to 74 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: do with loyalty, legacy, harmony, discords stuff that is really 75 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: qualitative rather than quantitative. Maybe I should have started with 76 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: that very simple sentence. The quality of your life is 77 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: determined by the quality of your relationships. And this is 78 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: true both at home and at work. So no matter 79 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: what you do, at some point you will ask yourself 80 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: at the last moment did I love and was I loved? 81 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: That will mean that you had invested in your relationship, 82 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: no matter what else you've done. Some people call it 83 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: the difference between a resume and a eulogy. Mhm. We 84 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: often here and we even in the show, we promote 85 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: the idea of investing in a relationship, of putting your 86 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: relationship first, of giving to the relationship. What does that 87 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: mean practically speaking? What does that look like? You know? 88 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: Let me put it like this growing up, this is 89 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: for everybody here. What messages did you receive about relationships 90 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: where they're central in your family life and in your 91 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: culture or were they're more peripheral. And if they were central, 92 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: what were the messages that accompanied it? As in, you 93 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: can trust people, people are there to help you. You 94 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: belong to a group. Your needs just are not just 95 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: your own, Your achievements are not just your own. You 96 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: are part of a larger network of connections or where 97 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: you talked more rely on your own to fit. Nobody 98 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: will ever tell you what to do as best as 99 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: you can tell yourself. Self reliance and autonomy one set 100 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: of models about relationships or loyalty and interdependence. Another set 101 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: of messages about and everybody here will pretty much be 102 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: able to know what was the emphasis of the messages. 103 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: Not always spoken by your parents like that. You know, 104 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: sometimes just by the sheer circumstances of your life, you 105 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: had to learn autonomy and self reliance versus interdependence. But 106 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: to me, this distinction about how we frame relationships and 107 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: therefore how we invest in them. This is a very 108 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: useful frame. Mm hmm. Hearing that, I jump immediately to 109 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: national characterization and you know, Western, Eastern, US, other parts 110 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: of the world in terms of the individual focus, and 111 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: you only have your self to rely on Protestantism. Yeah, 112 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: there you go. So there's the origin. It's a combination 113 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: of capitalism and Protestantism. You know, this notion that you 114 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: are at the center. It's an I versus a we. 115 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: Do I conceive of myself as an eye that reaches 116 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: out to we? Or do I conceive of myself as 117 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: part of a we in which I try to develop 118 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: an eye? Yeah, And it's not either or. There's a 119 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: relationship between those two. There's a relation. And many of 120 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: us have lived in both cultures. Many of us have 121 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: absorbed both systems, both their values attached to many people 122 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: today in the world have grown up in one place 123 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: and moved to another, you know, inside the US as well, 124 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: so we inhabit sometimes more than one value system when 125 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: it comes to relationships. Give you a great example when 126 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: I came to the US and I was working a 127 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: lot with mixed marriages, interracial, intercultural, inter religious marriages, and 128 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: many times the person was struggling between their ideology of love, 129 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: which was free choice, enterprise, and their loyalty to the family, 130 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: to the religion, to the culture, you know, to the 131 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: larger forces. And people would say, you should do what's 132 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: right for you, and I knew that that was a 133 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: very particular frame in contrast with people who lived with 134 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: the notion that what's right for you never exists separately 135 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: from how it affects others, you know. So they felt 136 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: terribly guilty about being selfish about doing what's read and 137 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: other people. You can't let other people dictate to you. Well, 138 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: this is a major division cross culturally. This is a 139 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: division inside this country, inside families, and inside ourselves. It's 140 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: a perfect example. I want to talk about division. We've 141 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: seen an experienced an extraordinary amount of political division in 142 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: the United States of late especially over the past four years, 143 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: and we've seen it show up steep into our most 144 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: cherished relationships, are family relationships, are intimate relationships. What have 145 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: you seen in your own practice, maybe amongst your colleagues, 146 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: about how our political divisions are showing up in our 147 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: relationships and how the politics has become more personal. One 148 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: of the basic ways that you experience divisions in relationships 149 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: is when there is a loss of a shared sense 150 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: of reality. This is what you've see in couples, in 151 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: families all the time, when there is you know, no 152 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: shared well off facts. And then that's you know, wrote 153 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: this week that we've ceased to be a country in 154 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: disagreement and we're now a country of mutual disgust. A 155 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: deep division is often marked by contempt. Content is often 156 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: the killer in relationships. You can have criticism, you can 157 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: have defensiveness, you can have stone warding, you can have 158 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: gaslighting even but contempt to actually guess that it goes off. 159 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: And with content contempt, this kind of the you've lost 160 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: the basic respect for the other person and for their humanity. 161 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: That is part of what we have and it's happening 162 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: inside families as much as it's happening in the society. 163 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: In the broader sense, people live with a sense of betrayal, 164 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: and betrayal generally represents the shattering of our shared assumptions. 165 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: I thought we were in this together. I thought you 166 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: had my back. I thought, you know, so there is 167 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: that and to me, you know, it's an interesting thing 168 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: to see on a macro level, that which you often 169 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: see when you work as a couples therapists, which I do, 170 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: when you work with very polarized couples, in which what 171 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: else goes into division in a couple. I tend to 172 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: think of myself as a rainbow. I think you are 173 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: black and white. I think of myself as complex. I 174 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: see you as one dimensional. I think that if I 175 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: behave poorly, it's because there are circumstances. If you behave poorly, 176 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: it's characteriological that is part of a of a polarization. 177 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: I don't really care to listen to you because I 178 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: experience everything you say as a threat and I'm in 179 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: fight flight mode, and I think that you know, if 180 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: we did it your way, you know, it would be 181 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: a disaster. You are willing to destroy everything which we 182 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: com planet do you live on? How can you even 183 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: think like this? And it's mutual. You say the same 184 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: thing to me with those words or other words. So 185 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: that's what happens in a polarized couple is that you 186 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: have instant escalation and a fundamental belief that the facts 187 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: actually matter. But at some point the feelings and the 188 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: form supersede the content. You know, if we start to 189 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: talk with dismissal, it doesn't matter if we're talking about 190 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: the economy or about green peace. In the engineer, it 191 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: the form precedes the content. If what I think is 192 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: that you have no idea what you're talking about, we 193 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: can talk about anything. I will still think that you 194 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: have no idea what you're talking about. If you think 195 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: I'm even if you think I don't care, if you 196 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: think I'm going to bring your demise, it doesn't matter 197 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: the subject matter. You will have the filter because we 198 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 1: see what we expect to see in your experience with 199 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: these couples. What's the threshold for arriving at a place 200 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: of contempt and dismissal? How does that escalation happen? How 201 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: do you know your past that point? If I fundamentally 202 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: distrust you and I think that you're just out for yourself, 203 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: that you don't take my well being into account. I 204 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: see you as a potential danger. That's part of why 205 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to fight flight. You are a threat to me. 206 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: You're a threat to me because you're black. You're a 207 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: threat to me as you're a man. You're a threat 208 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: to me because you're rich, because you're poor, or because 209 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: you're coming to take my job, or because you are 210 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:11,599 Speaker 1: bringing indecency into our society, or because you're bringing nationalism 211 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: and populism into our society. You know, in political reunite 212 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: has other names than in a marriage, but basically, you 213 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: are danger. When you are danger, the first thing I 214 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: do is I defend, and if I can, I attack 215 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: a counterattack. I blame blame defense, blame defense, and I deflect. 216 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: In a polarized relationship, I never think I have the 217 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: responsibility for anything. It's you who make me do what 218 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: I do, which I wouldn't do if you were different 219 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: and didn't make me. And then you can you can 220 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: translate it into quanity. I am the way I am 221 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: because of you. If you hadn't done this, I wouldn't be. 222 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: So it's what we call hostile dependence. I need you 223 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: to change, but since you don't, I am angry at you, 224 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: and the more I'm angry at you, of course, the 225 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: less you're gonna do, and the less you're gonna do, 226 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: and the more I'm going to need you to do, 227 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: you knowder for anything to change, which you're not doing, 228 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: so I get enraged. So that's a vicious cycle. That's 229 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: an understatement. But yes, it's a negative reinforcement. Yes, it's 230 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: a complete negative feedback loop. It's it's the route of escalation. 231 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: And when you see it on the national level, it's 232 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: basically when you watch Trump and Pelosi, that's what you get. 233 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: So clearly there have been some efforts that you've been 234 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: a part of that. You've seen that the human species 235 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: has been through in our relationships before, to also repair, 236 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: to return from a state of mutual disgust and contempt 237 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: one of more trust and more partnership rather than threat. 238 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: What is that road look like, the return to mutual 239 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: respect in humanity? You know, I will respond to you 240 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: on two levels. One is in my practice as a therapist, 241 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: and then one is really in other things that I 242 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: have been aware of, not always fully involved with. But 243 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: I have looked at South Africa, I have looked at 244 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: the groups that come together as mothers or fathers of 245 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: Israeli and Palestinian children, people who could hate each other 246 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: for life, and who decides that they have no choice. 247 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: They won't be able to live well and sleep well 248 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: unless they find some kind of dialogue with those other people, 249 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: and they come together as mothers and fathers who lost 250 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: their children, and that supersedes everything about this most intractable 251 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: political conflict. So take me through the first part. Then 252 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: as a therapist. So as a therapist, you know, the 253 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: first thing I say is if you continue to repeat 254 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: the same thing, the more you say what you say, 255 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: the more your partner is going to say the exact 256 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: thing that you don't want them to say. Meaning we 257 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: have a knack of drawing from the other side the 258 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: very thing which we actually don't want. If you continue 259 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: to say things are really good, things are better than ever, 260 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: your partner is going to answer they're awful. So if 261 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: you want to hear something else, maybe you change what 262 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: you've been saying. So that doesn't mean you say things 263 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: are awful. That means you say, obviously you have a 264 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: different experience. Let me listen very hard, very hard for 265 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: us to listen to stuff that is fundamentally the opposite 266 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: of how we see it. But that's the exercise. Then 267 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: you step out of the kind of calcification of position shows, 268 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: you know. Then you really start to pay attention of 269 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: how you treat the other one as welle dimensional and 270 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: how you think that you are much more layered and 271 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: nuanced and complex, you know. So that's a big one. 272 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: Then you find some common ground. The common ground at 273 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: this moment is that people feel deeply unsettled and stressed 274 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: out and exhausted. Well, let's start with that. Why we 275 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: are stressed out. We may say it's your fault and 276 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: the other one says it's your fault, like in a relationship, 277 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: but the fact is none of us are sleeping that 278 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: well for the moment, you know. Then you go and 279 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: you check your perception gap. This notion that people often 280 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: have in a relationship where they think that the other 281 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: person is completely on the other side, like there's absolutely 282 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: nothing we see how to eye here, and yet both 283 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: of you wan't good for your child. One of you 284 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: says we need to punish him, the other one says 285 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: we shouldn't be so harsh on him. You are locked 286 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: on this one. But the one thing we know is 287 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: that both of you feel at the loss, and both 288 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 1: of you would do anything to get your child to 289 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: stop using drugs. For example, this is a classic you know, 290 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: and people have divorced over it. People. And now the 291 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: interesting thing is the only way you can only focus 292 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,959 Speaker 1: on the punishment is because you've got someone here who 293 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: is actually holding the value of the kindness or the 294 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: empathy if you want. And the only way that you 295 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: can only talk about the empathy is because you've got 296 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: someone here who is talking about the limits. And you 297 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: actually need each other because basically your kids needs both. 298 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: So instead of just thinking you're right, how about you 299 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: try to be wise? It's better to be wise than right. Yeah. 300 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: There's a phrase that I started saying the people and 301 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: some of my own work, which is now, do you 302 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: want to be right or do you want to be effective? Yeah? 303 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: And you know that the feeling of righteousness is powerful, 304 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: but its impact is pretty limited in terms of the 305 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: outcomes you want. There's a requirement in the steps that 306 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: you've outlined to slow down and to want to do 307 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: it and to want it and to not say you first, 308 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: why should I you have done nothing? Why should I 309 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: be nice? You know? That's part of the indignation to right. 310 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: This is a very critical moment. So yeah, I want 311 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: to go there because in the United States, we've had 312 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: years of attempts at outreach, at reconciliation, at deep empathy. 313 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: After it felt to me like the New York Times 314 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: devoted a whole new beat to understanding the quote unquote 315 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: working class man in America. And I see all of 316 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: this effort at recognition, at de escalation, at recomplexifying the 317 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: other into a human I see it coming heavily from 318 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: the side of liberals and progressive who feels some shame, 319 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: some guilt, some compassion. We must have gotten something wrong 320 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: about the country we're living in. So let's go to 321 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: western Pennsylvania and find a coal miner to talk to 322 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: and understand his plate. And I've searched, and I'm not 323 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: saying it's exhausted, but I have very few examples of 324 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: that coming from the right end of the political spectrum. 325 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: I haven't seen the humility demonstrated there to say, maybe 326 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: we don't understand the country we're in. Maybe we should 327 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: go to Brooklyn and understand and have a latte with 328 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: some hipster and see what's really going on. Their mind, 329 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: or a black person in Alabama and see what's really 330 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: on her mind. One you can tell me if my 331 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: characterization is off, if you've seen something different. I'm happy 332 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: to be wrong, truly, But beyond that, when one side 333 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: feels like they're putting all the work in and the 334 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: other side isn't, how do you move out of that 335 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: sense and that possible reality. So it's very interesting because 336 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: this could be a complete description inside a couple where 337 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: one person says, I bring up all the conversations. I'm 338 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: the one who's always asking questions. I'm the one who's 339 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: trying to improve the relationship, and my partner just sits 340 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: there and just thinks that you know, he or she 341 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: is beyond reproach. You know I can do no right 342 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: and the other can do no wrong. Why should I? 343 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: And sometimes I say, you don't have to. But the 344 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: world you want to live in, you could live with 345 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: yourself if you did. It's the person you want to 346 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: be now. From there, I can play the metaphor and 347 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: the analogy of marriage and relationship ships. But I also 348 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: understand that when nationalism and populism rises, there's a limit 349 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: to the analogy. I think that things could completely improve, 350 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: and your partner may still think that it's because you improved, 351 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: and you would love to for them to say they 352 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: made a mistake too, but they actually still think of 353 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: themselves in this entitled righteous way in which they think 354 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: you're the one who came to your senses. And that's 355 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: where I say, you want to share reality or you 356 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: just want to say. My partner thinks that our marriage 357 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: improved because I changed, because I stopped yelling, because I 358 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: stopped being critical, because I finally saw whatever he or 359 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: she was saying, And I will say that's how he 360 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: views it, and I'm willing for him or her to 361 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: think that I made all the changes. That's actually a compliment. 362 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: But if I think you are still basically blaming me, 363 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: you're still holding me responsible for everything. So before it 364 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: was you were the problem, now it's you are the solution. 365 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,719 Speaker 1: You are the solution. Is also implied you were the problem. 366 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: I have to be able to not care and just 367 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: say that's okay. I accept the compliment. I did all 368 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: the work. Basically, my partner thinks completely different than me 369 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: about what improved our relationship, and I let him think 370 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: this way because it serves me. I have an autonomy 371 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: to my thinking, I no longer need him to actually 372 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: think like me in order to have a shared reality. 373 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: And that is a whole other way of going about 374 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: this different bridge. Yeah, and I don't know if that 375 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: is done on a national level, but I'll tell you something. 376 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: There's a story that just happened to me recently that 377 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: I've been wanting to share. Jack and I have a 378 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: flat tire. We're on the highway for four hours. Nobody 379 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 1: can pick you up anymore because we're in the middle 380 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: of this highway. A pickup truck arrives and the guy 381 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: basically looks at us and he's a foreigner who got 382 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: asylum who you would think, you know, you're an immigrant 383 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: with that had this kind of history for sure, bad assumption. 384 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: He looks at us and he says, they're an elderly couple, 385 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: that we shouldn't let's go alone to the city. They 386 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: only have a doughnut. He drives us for three and 387 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: a half hours, And for three and a half hours, 388 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: it's like being with Fox News, every trope, everything, everything. 389 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: He's screaming. He's so screaming that I'm afraid he's going 390 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: to run off the road with this truck and our 391 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: car in the back, and Jack just continues to listen 392 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: to him, like just kindly listening and so curious like 393 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: how he did it. You would think it's like masochistic. 394 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: But when we arrived, we gave him a big tip 395 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: and he looks at us and he says, you're giving 396 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: me money even though you know my beliefs and we 397 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: are probably be really really quite different than what we 398 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: think about. And I said to him, I'm not giving 399 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: your money for your beliefs and giving your money for 400 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: your behavior. And you were kind, and he says, I 401 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: think I probably should listen a little more and talk 402 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: a little less. And I said, I think that would 403 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: be a good idea. You may actually here's some different 404 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: things that would be important for you. Thank you. It 405 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: really is one of the experiences that have shaped us 406 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: in the last months because we could have done the 407 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: you know, shut up and don't talk and you know, 408 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: I don't want to listen this, but instead we were 409 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: curious just to see how this whole thing makes sense 410 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: to him. And it's not easy to sit because you 411 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: start boiling inside. You know, an occasion, it's very hard 412 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: to listen to people tell you things that you fundamentally 413 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: disagree it and that will affect you. This is one 414 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: thing we know in the couple, so we just instantly 415 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: rebut and to actually let it land on us like 416 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: that and then still be able to differentiate he's thinking 417 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: from his actions, his kindness, from his racism. Oh, at 418 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: the same time, holding multiple perspectives like that. I think 419 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: that's on occasion when you have it, you feel hopeful. 420 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: I mean. And what you extended to him in that 421 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: moment was the benefit of complexity. Yeah, you allowed him 422 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: to be something more than a Fox News raver, but 423 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: also a kind neighbor at the same time, and break 424 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: that contradiction and you a little bit. And the other 425 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: piece that I'm hearing here is about what it does 426 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: to you, what it does to the person who stops 427 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: talking and listens to the person who does some kind 428 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: of outreach, who prioritizes the preservation of the relationship over 429 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: the righteousness of a specific position. But seriously, but don't 430 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: I think that what makes the difference is if there 431 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: is a relationship. This is what you asked me before. 432 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: What does it mean to invest in the relationship for 433 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 1: you to just want to understand the white man or 434 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: what the Republicans think or what the Trump supporters think. 435 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: You will do it if you have a friend and 436 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: you kind of say, dude or or woman, doesn't matter, 437 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: explain it to me. Explain me what you experience that 438 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: led to how you think that leads to how you vote. 439 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: Because you care about that person, you may want to 440 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: have that conversation, or you may say we have a 441 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: deep connection, but it stops right here. Like in families 442 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: at this moment, there are people who will continue to 443 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: love their brothers, sisters, parents, aunt with whom there is 444 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: an app salute block, like we don't go there. We 445 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: don't go there, but we have enough of the other 446 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: things that we share, history, tradition, you know, family connections 447 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: for which we are willing to stay together. Otherwise we 448 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: will really be living lives in front of our own mirrors. 449 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: And I think families are good training grounds for this. 450 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: To see how the same aunt who is a white supremacist. 451 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: This is a friend of mine who has seem sus 452 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: like my mother died, she says to me, and my 453 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: aunts are white supremacists, but they're the only way that 454 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: I can stay connected to my mother with people who 455 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: knew her and I don't know how to handle it, 456 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: h to which you say, you know, basically, if you 457 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: only talk about your mother primarily, you just focus on that, 458 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: and it's a good chance that there's not much else 459 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: that you will share with them, unless you say, I 460 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: can be in the presence of people who think this way, 461 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: they are a threat to my survival, and I'll find 462 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: other ways to remember my mother, or you say I'll 463 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: make sure to see them once a year. I mean 464 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: it brings us back to the initial relationship conversation about 465 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: seeing the person with whom you're in relationship as a 466 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: threat more than as a partner, and that might be 467 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: a decision that you come to, maybe after trying a 468 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: few things before. Then. There are many of us who 469 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: have parents, have partners, have colleagues who we have fundamental 470 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: disagreements with, not about what color shade the sky is, 471 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: but do we take a pandemic seriously or not? Do 472 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: we believe in the humanity of immigrants or not? Do 473 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: you know that I used to have screaming matches with 474 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: my parents every Friday night when we had family gathering. 475 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure that screaming matches about politics. And then they 476 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: would say you're young. It's okay to be lefty when 477 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: you're young. You learned later, right, And that was even 478 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: more like, you know, you your naive, you know? And 479 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: I was saying you're immoral, and they were saying you're naive, 480 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: which is kind of the division, you know, between liberal 481 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,239 Speaker 1: and conservative here. It's like once he's the other as 482 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: dangerous and naive, the other one sees the other as 483 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: morally dangerous. And yet we would finish the screaming match 484 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: and we start doing the dishes together. I can't even 485 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: tell you the rage that would come out of me, 486 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: like how can you say things like this with what 487 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: you went through? Who? Who are you? People? Kind of thing? 488 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: And then to think you my parents, and yet you 489 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: came back for more every Friday evening, and so did they, 490 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: and so did they. And I don't know what I 491 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: make of this, because I hadn't thought about this in 492 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: a long time. This came up suddenly this week, I 493 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: said to somebody. There was the same conversation over and 494 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: over and over again. Then I started to feel like 495 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: it created an ambivalent in my relationship between me and 496 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: my parents, that my parents could be thinking this way. 497 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: It really is an exercising attachment like who you try 498 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: to continue to maintain a connection with, what is that 499 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: connection based on, and where you realize this is dangerous 500 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: for me and I may need to let go of this, 501 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: I may need to just say bye bye. And what 502 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: I respect about that is it gives you many layers 503 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: or many options. You know, who am I trying to 504 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: be in relationship with? What is it based on? And 505 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: when is enough enough? And those are not binary choices. 506 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: They exist on a spectrum as you spoke of earlier. 507 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: It's not do I have any relationship with my aunt 508 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: at all? It's what kind of relationship? What kind of 509 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: context am I willing to allow what topics for discussion 510 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: or owner off the table for my own sense of 511 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: safety and well being and for the preservation in whatever form, 512 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: at whatever level of some relationship with these people who 513 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: are important to me. Still, that's a that's an exercise, 514 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: and it's a nuanced one. Um. It's not as simple 515 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: as friend unfriend. But you know, this thing that you 516 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: asked me is very true. As you say before about 517 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: I see my side in the ways what you say 518 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: having tried to make sense of the other, and I 519 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: don't see any curiosity on the other side, to try 520 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: to meet me, to understand me, to know where I'm 521 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: coming from. I think this happens in relationships a lot, 522 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: in intimate relationships. You know, I've tried to understand why 523 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: he doesn't want to talk, why he's so silent. I've 524 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: gone to talk to his parents, I've gone. You know, 525 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: I'm putting it in a straight context for a moment, 526 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: but it doesn't have to be yet. It's really one 527 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: person says, I've tried to understand my partner. I've tried. 528 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: I've read so many books about you know, why my 529 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: partner cheated on me. I've read so many books about 530 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: why my partner drinks and alcoholism. I've read so many 531 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: You know, one is completely invested in trying to understand you, 532 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: and the other is really not interested, particularly in being 533 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: self reflected ether not just a big being curious about you. 534 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: That's a dynamic in and of itself. Yeah, there's a 535 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: lack of curiosity in any direction, which can create a 536 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: greater sense of contempt on the part of the party 537 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: that sees itself at put as putting forth a lot 538 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: of effort. You're not curious about me, You're not even 539 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: curious about yourself? What is this? Why do I bother? 540 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: Three quick ones? One is a national characterization question. You 541 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: describe cultures that are more based in the eye and 542 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: cultures that are more based in the wei, and they 543 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: both kind of allow room to reach in the other direction, 544 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: but their anchor point feels a bit different. I think 545 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: the United States, broadly speaking, is based in an eye culture. 546 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: And I wondered what your read on the individual and 547 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: collective culture in the US really is And essentially, are 548 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: we doomed? Strong word? But to forever try to struggle 549 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: out of a sense of individuality into something a bit 550 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: more common and collective, which I think is a requirement 551 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: for true citizenship. But it feels at odds with the 552 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: dominant culture. The dominant culture prizes individualism, the dominant cultural 553 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: prices effort optimism. There is no problem that doesn't have 554 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: a solution, even the existential conundrums. Everything has a solution. 555 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: Break it down to pieces, get to work and fix it. 556 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: This ethos is kind of core That is something that 557 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: foreigners often observed about the US. It's like, what do 558 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: you do as if everything has a solution and an 559 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: answer immediately? Even in psychology, when I arrived, it was 560 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: very much helping children to figure out what they want 561 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: to do so they can leave the home. And if 562 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: you were a home in which you wanted to children, 563 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: not necessarily and giving you an old exams to go 564 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 1: to the best college because it was far away, because 565 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: what matter to you more was to have you keep 566 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: be able to come home on Sunday for a family 567 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: dinner and you wanted them close by. You know, you 568 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: were at arts. Nothing should stand in the way of achievement. 569 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: No relationships, no family ties, no tradition that stands in 570 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: the way of that dominant individualistic piece. Now inside of 571 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: us there are many, many, many cultures. The question is 572 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,760 Speaker 1: when you measure yourself against the dominant, then the institutions 573 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: represent the dominant. Psychotherapy represents the dominant. Instead of seeing 574 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: this as an alternative model and as a model that 575 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: is highly resilient and adaptive, we for a long time 576 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: would see this as what we would call and meshed families, 577 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: you know, families who didn't know to let the people leave, 578 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: and they curtailed the development of the individual because self 579 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: growth is the measurements rather than people who understand that 580 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: together is important that there is value in maintaining this 581 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: weekly gatherings. That success is important, but not at the 582 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: expense of family ties. That's a classic example in family 583 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: therapy where this negotiation takes place between the power of 584 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: the collective and the power of the individual. It's all 585 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,959 Speaker 1: the time like that, and intersecting with gender, with race, 586 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: with religion. I mean it gets layered like this. I 587 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: think there's a reason we're talking about how the the 588 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: second epidemic here is not just coronavirus, but it's loneliness. 589 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: Loneliness people are disconnected, lonely. You know, there's nobody to 590 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: turn to enough, and the pandemic has just reinforced that. 591 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,240 Speaker 1: So we can't talk about the problem of loneliness without 592 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: connecting it to the emphasis and individualism people think about 593 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: the long genius will talk about I have done this, 594 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,439 Speaker 1: and they can talk about their resume and all their 595 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: rather than I did it with There's always others that 596 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: help you wherever you are. No, you're not alone getting there, 597 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: But the notion that somebody could help me weakens me. 598 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: The notion that I would need to rely on others. 599 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: Dependency is such a frightening word to many many Americans 600 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: who abide by that ethos, it is really and men 601 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: more than women. That's a place where I spend a 602 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: lot of time working. Yeah, is there anything you want 603 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: to add on this subject of repairing relationships, investing in 604 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: relationships in the context of deep political division. When people 605 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: demonize each other, it's doomed. I mean, you can survive, 606 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 1: but you're constantly looking over your shoulder. It's an awful 607 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: way to live, to think that there is threat around 608 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: you all the time. The other is your threat. And 609 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: at the same time, I feel like I don't want 610 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: to see anything that sounds massively naive. You know, when 611 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: people come after you and want to kill you, they 612 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: want to kill you, and there is not much talking 613 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: with them that will soften them. I want to make 614 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: that very clear. Otherwise I'm just living in la la 615 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: land for a minute. I think you will find those 616 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: from whom you need to really shield yourself, and then 617 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: you find those with whom you think there's some hope here, 618 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: there's a possibility, and I'm willing to look for the possibilities. 619 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: In the end, every process of reconciliation has demanded people 620 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: putting down their arms, all of them, and every process 621 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: of reconciliation has often been done, not every but many 622 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: by a person that once was completely on the other side. 623 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: It takes the biggest dictator, It takes Bota in South 624 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: Africa to actually begin reconciliation. I think Mandela Botta is 625 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: an incredible lesson for us to go look at because 626 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: it's men, it's black and white, it's years of oppression. 627 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not a historian and a political scientist, 628 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: but that's where I am drawn to go. See people 629 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: have done it, and did they begin to like each other? 630 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 1: Probably two men actually realized that they liked each other 631 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: more than they thought they would. And from that place 632 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: they got slightly intrigued, and from that place they decided 633 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: that actually they have the power to give a legacy 634 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: to this country that is better than the ship show 635 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: that could otherwise take place. And why not do we 636 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: have that kind of leadership at this point here or 637 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: in many other parts of the world at this moment. No, No, 638 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: at this moment, there are people who are going in 639 00:40:52,120 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: a different direction. Speaking of going in a different direction, 640 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: I'm interrupting my own interview here to give you a 641 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: heads up. But there shortly will take us in a 642 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: different and more personal direction neither of us expected, as 643 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: she shares a lesson she learned as the child of 644 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: Holocaust survivors in Belgium. Last question topic is something we 645 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: ask everyone who comes in. We see this word citizen 646 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,800 Speaker 1: not as primarily about legal status or any kind of status, 647 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: but about being a verb a set of actions. If 648 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: you interpret the word citizen as a verb, how do 649 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: you define what it means to citizens? It's an active verb. 650 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,280 Speaker 1: So it's a practice that constantly needs to be fine tuned, 651 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: that constantly demands that we check ourselves. I think it's 652 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 1: very easy to think that we are good and the 653 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: other people are not. That demands that we on occasion 654 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: can see what effects do we have on others that 655 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: on occasion makes us do stuff which we would never 656 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: have done. You know, I'll tell you one answer about citizens, 657 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 1: an anecdote, But I it's so many things that I 658 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: have not thought about in a while. Sometimes come back, 659 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: I hitch hike across the US. But almost two months, 660 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: many years ago, in seventies six, the by centennials, I 661 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,439 Speaker 1: was eighteen years old. I saw America like I would 662 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: never see it again. I was invited in all kinds 663 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 1: of homes of people that had never heard of Belgium, 664 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: that had beliefs and ideas of people that today I 665 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: would be really disparaging. I would say, I have nothing 666 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: in common with this. They opened their homes, they fed me, 667 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: they drove me, really the America that I am not 668 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: very much in touch with at this moment. But they 669 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: just saw a hitch hiker and there was something very interesting. 670 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,800 Speaker 1: But they just saw me as a person. And on 671 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: occasion I would say June and I knew they taught 672 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 1: Christ killer and I mean, they went on and on 673 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 1: like this. But something about the way that they just were, 674 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: the kindness of strangers, and the fact that it was 675 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: for a moment removed from ideology and politics, made it 676 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: possible for us to have some very interesting moments together. 677 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: And I do think that as I became more informed 678 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 1: and more knowledgeable, and more brainwashed as well, I began 679 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: to be narrower in my acceptance of these people. Today, 680 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: if I saw them, I would call them sometimes with 681 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: all kinds of labels, rather than they were nice people 682 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: who picked me up on the road. I tried to 683 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: use that because otherwise I can become bitter and very scared. 684 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,279 Speaker 1: I have to find ways to humanize other people, to 685 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,080 Speaker 1: be slightly less scared of them. I think that is 686 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,320 Speaker 1: a big part of citizenship at this moment, or citizen 687 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: gree not to dehumanize the other because the more we 688 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: dehumanize them, the more frightened we become. And you more 689 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: than me. We know we don't have the same fear, 690 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: and we're aware. Thank you for that. You know. In 691 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: some ways, it's a different type of survival mechanism. There's 692 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: something that gets triggered in us where we dehumanize another 693 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,800 Speaker 1: out of a sense of survival. We don't feel safe. 694 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: There are monsters, monsters are bad. Get away from monsters, 695 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: destroyed monsters, and there's another option, which is actually to 696 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: humanize them more in response to the feeling of threat, 697 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 1: so that we're not as afraid. My dad told me 698 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: this when he was in the concentration camp. He said 699 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: the old guards were nicer than the young ones. I said, 700 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,879 Speaker 1: explain that to me. He said, the old ones had 701 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 1: more respect for the elderly. They remember their fathers. The 702 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: young ones had no connection, so the old one hit 703 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 1: you sometimes less hard. He tried to not think that 704 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: all the guards were the same. I'm sure anybody you know, 705 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,720 Speaker 1: even today in the prison has makes a distinction between 706 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 1: the guards that are nicer and the guards who have 707 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: clemency and and the guard who doesn't just had the 708 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: last beat of just sadistic hitting just because they can 709 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 1: first as the one who thinks he got you back 710 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: into the cell and that's enough. This is what I'm 711 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: talking about it. I'm not saying we need to love 712 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: these people and be nice. I just think that there's 713 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: a way of really looking for the humanity in situations 714 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,880 Speaker 1: where one would think it's all equal. That's a wrap. 715 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: I've never talked about this, you know. It's it's very 716 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: interesting that you know, but I know people must do this. 717 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,760 Speaker 1: It's like the teacher in the school. You know, which 718 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: is the mean teacher and which is the evil or 719 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 1: sadistic teacher. And there's a range everywhere. Yes, in matters 720 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,320 Speaker 1: of black and white, there's always gray, and the whitest 721 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: white and the blackest black, there's still gray. And you know, 722 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: I said that's a wrap, but that wasn't quite true. 723 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,399 Speaker 1: It's more of an observation to share with you, which 724 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 1: is the feeling that many of us have about the 725 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,319 Speaker 1: other side. I'll speak for myself. I know there are 726 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: people on the other side of the political establishment in 727 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 1: this country who would be happy with my death, and 728 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: then it's easy for me to then leap to Okay, Well, 729 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,239 Speaker 1: sixties six million people voted for me to die, and 730 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:49,000 Speaker 1: the recomplicating, rehumanizing exercise that I'm trying in my mind 731 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,879 Speaker 1: right now is to say probably not now. Were they 732 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: willing to look the other way? Did it not matter 733 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,880 Speaker 1: as much to them? They interpret these as less literal 734 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: and more metaphoric. Cool Where their priority shifted was their 735 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,279 Speaker 1: attention elsewhere so that they could put their name on 736 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 1: a document which aligns with someone who also aligns with 737 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: someone who does want me to die. Yes, but that 738 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: is a much different statement from sixty six million people 739 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,360 Speaker 1: in my unstection, and I think you have to be 740 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:20,320 Speaker 1: very careful. We all have to be very careful. It's catchy, 741 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:25,720 Speaker 1: and it's utterly ineffective and terrifying and inaccurate. It doesn't 742 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,240 Speaker 1: serve I think you're right. You look in the middle 743 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: of those sixty six there are people who you know, 744 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 1: have nine reasons for which they would be completely allied 745 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 1: with you, But there is one thing that made them 746 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,240 Speaker 1: decide to go to the other side, but not because 747 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,840 Speaker 1: they hate you. Yeah, and then you probably say, what 748 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: do I have to do all this effort? I get 749 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 1: that too, well, I have to if I decide that 750 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: the marriage, that the relationship in this case, that the 751 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,879 Speaker 1: society is worth it. Do I want to look over 752 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,520 Speaker 1: shoulder for sixty six million people? That's very exhausting. That's 753 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: one out of two, you know, voters, at least, so 754 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: that when the person asked me, why should I if 755 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: I can, and if it's I think so, I say, 756 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:19,800 Speaker 1: because it serves you, because it's enlightened self interest to 757 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,880 Speaker 1: not think sixty six million won't kill me. It's enlightened 758 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,960 Speaker 1: self interest. Yeah, it's not naividda, it's not foolish faith. 759 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: Thank you as there and pleasure. Oh good, we've gone places. 760 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:40,399 Speaker 1: Yes we have. What a journey. What a journey. Indeed, 761 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,399 Speaker 1: as their Perel, I still can't believe we had her 762 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: on this show. We are so grateful to us there 763 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 1: for joining us. Find her on the socials. She's on 764 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 1: Instagram under as their Parrel Official and on Twitter at 765 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,719 Speaker 1: as their Parrel. You can go directly to her website 766 00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: as their Perel dot com E. S. T. H. E 767 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,040 Speaker 1: are p E R e L dot com and you 768 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,279 Speaker 1: should be able to tap on all those in the 769 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 1: show notes if you're consuming this through a mobile podcast app. 770 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,359 Speaker 1: Now time for some actions on the internal front. We've 771 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: got three things cued up for you. The first, what 772 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: is your model of relationships? And something for you to 773 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: think about and sit with yourself. Where you raised to 774 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: believe in self reliance and autonomy or in interdependence and loyalty. 775 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,719 Speaker 1: Do you conceive of yourself as an I trying to 776 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,360 Speaker 1: develop a WEI or is it the other way around? 777 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:41,319 Speaker 1: The next internal thing, take inventory of the relationships in 778 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:47,239 Speaker 1: your life. Identify those that are polarized because of politics, 779 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:52,239 Speaker 1: and determine which relationships make you truly unsafe that you've 780 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 1: gotta let go of at least for now, and then 781 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,680 Speaker 1: focus on those where you're still committed to some level 782 00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,359 Speaker 1: of relationship where you can still see possibility. And in 783 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: those relationships, make a choice. Choose to humanize the other person, 784 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,680 Speaker 1: Choose to listen. Choose to find common ground, no matter 785 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:17,520 Speaker 1: how small, reflects on your own behavior and language throughout 786 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 1: this relationship, and ask yourself if you can acknowledge any 787 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: responsibility for the state of things in that relationship. Just 788 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:31,759 Speaker 1: do this with yourself. The last internal action opportunity we 789 00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,279 Speaker 1: have for you is to examine your own perspectives about 790 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:40,000 Speaker 1: people who vote differently than you. What about your view 791 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: or belief about those people makes you fearful of them 792 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,280 Speaker 1: or of the consequences of their votes. If these thoughts 793 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,759 Speaker 1: were reversed, would they sound fair or accurate to you? 794 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,440 Speaker 1: If they categorized the way you vote and the people 795 00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,560 Speaker 1: you vote with behave? Can you imagine another dimension to 796 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,920 Speaker 1: one of these other voters as to why they behave 797 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,920 Speaker 1: or vote the way they do? Can you complicate them 798 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,960 Speaker 1: in your mind a little bit? All right, All that's 799 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,200 Speaker 1: super easy. Should be done with that in just like 800 00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 1: a few seconds. And then on the external front, a 801 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:21,880 Speaker 1: few options here. Three is the magic number still. The 802 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: first is I want you to choose to deepen one 803 00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,400 Speaker 1: or two relationships with people who have voted differently from you, 804 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,800 Speaker 1: Just one or two. It's instead of ignoring a loved 805 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:39,200 Speaker 1: one who voted away you disapprove of, choose to engage 806 00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,960 Speaker 1: with them. But here's the thing, not with a pile 807 00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:47,800 Speaker 1: of facts, not with arguments, but instead engage with questions. 808 00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,960 Speaker 1: Go all the way back to episode two with Eric 809 00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: lou And remember when he suggested the question what are 810 00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,840 Speaker 1: you afraid of? What do you think is going to 811 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,480 Speaker 1: happen in the worst case scenario in your mind if 812 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,480 Speaker 1: your side loses this, ask that of this person who 813 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,200 Speaker 1: you have a relationship with, and add a few more 814 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: questions what do you hope for and what do you 815 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,960 Speaker 1: care about? And then the trick is you got to 816 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:18,000 Speaker 1: actually listen to what they say. The second external action 817 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:22,480 Speaker 1: option is to build that invest in relationships beyond politics. 818 00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:26,760 Speaker 1: We need more excuses to connect with each other beyond 819 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,120 Speaker 1: the explicitly political. In our second episode, again Eric asked 820 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,520 Speaker 1: us to start or join a club, any club, do 821 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 1: it if you haven't already, and if you have good 822 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,479 Speaker 1: for you. We need to stay connected to others through 823 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,880 Speaker 1: common interests that we share and invest in those relationships 824 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,520 Speaker 1: in that arena and the third it's a bit bigger, wider, 825 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,120 Speaker 1: more diffuse, but it's definitely out there in the real world. 826 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,760 Speaker 1: I want you to stay engaged and to recommit during 827 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,520 Speaker 1: this transition. Our kind tree is literally in a transition. 828 00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,800 Speaker 1: This podcast is in a transition. Voting season is over, 829 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,799 Speaker 1: but it's always a season too, citizens and depending on 830 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,160 Speaker 1: when you're listening to this voting season might not even 831 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,920 Speaker 1: be over because of the special runoff election in Georgia, 832 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,560 Speaker 1: but you get my drift. I need you to keep 833 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 1: showing up, to keep investing in relationships, to keep exploring 834 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 1: and understanding your power, and to keep working for the 835 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:33,400 Speaker 1: benefit of the many. This ain't over. It's never over. 836 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:40,120 Speaker 1: That's a feature, not a bug of the system as usual. 837 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,080 Speaker 1: If you take any of these actions, hit us up 838 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,560 Speaker 1: action and how to citizen dot com, put humanized in 839 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,800 Speaker 1: the subject line, and share about us on the socials 840 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,360 Speaker 1: with hashtag how to citizen. Now about this end of 841 00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,680 Speaker 1: season talk, I've been dropping all episode. What you're talking about, Barratune, 842 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,239 Speaker 1: What you mean you can't stop citizening. We're taking a 843 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 1: bit of a pause. This is a wrap on season one, 844 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,239 Speaker 1: but there will be a season two. There will be 845 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,880 Speaker 1: a season two. It's very exciting. It's very exciting to 846 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,759 Speaker 1: get a podcast renewal. I feel so Hollywood. So there's 847 00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:14,600 Speaker 1: some things I want to say about this first season. 848 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,799 Speaker 1: But first I want to reflect back to you a 849 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,759 Speaker 1: few of the things some of you have said to us. 850 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,360 Speaker 1: You've hit us up on this email. I haven't shared 851 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,319 Speaker 1: very often. I apologize for that. Will do more in 852 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,359 Speaker 1: the second season, but right now I have a few 853 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,239 Speaker 1: messages to share that reflects a range of sentiment from y'all. 854 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,880 Speaker 1: Kelly wrote in I wish I was a high school 855 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,520 Speaker 1: history a Civics teacher who could teach us this way. 856 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:42,760 Speaker 1: My sons are in high school and it's so boring, 857 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,920 Speaker 1: and I love history, citizenship, Civics classes. This format got 858 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,400 Speaker 1: me thinking. It gave me resources to use my power 859 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,120 Speaker 1: more efficiently. I am so pleased to have found this podcast. 860 00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,480 Speaker 1: I am so pleased Kelly, that you found this podcast. 861 00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,760 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. In feedback to the show about 862 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:06,040 Speaker 1: feeding Ourselves, we got this note loving the podcast. So 863 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,839 Speaker 1: many wonderful guests providing diverse perspectives on a variety of 864 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,480 Speaker 1: topics with real actionable items to back them up. Thank you, 865 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 1: Thank you. Someone understood the podcast. This episode struck a 866 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,279 Speaker 1: chord because I'm here in Humboldt County, California, where we 867 00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,560 Speaker 1: have a program called the Little Free Pantry that is 868 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,279 Speaker 1: similar to the fridge program in l A. Through an 869 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:28,239 Speaker 1: organization called Cooperation Humboldt, pantries are installed much like you 870 00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,480 Speaker 1: would see community libraries invisible highly accessible areas so that 871 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,000 Speaker 1: people can easily utilize them. This person goes on to 872 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,000 Speaker 1: write more details about the the shifts and the stocking 873 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,480 Speaker 1: and who's using the the pantries and it sounds just 874 00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:43,399 Speaker 1: like the fridge. And if you want to know more 875 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,520 Speaker 1: about this, if you live in the north coast of California, 876 00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:48,640 Speaker 1: check out Cooperation Humboldt dot com. And thank you for 877 00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,960 Speaker 1: writing in about that. This is from Gene, who's written 878 00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,640 Speaker 1: us a couple of times. We see all your messages. Jeane, 879 00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,000 Speaker 1: thank you so much. I've listened to all the episodes 880 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,560 Speaker 1: of How to Citizen except the new one, which I 881 00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,319 Speaker 1: assume has been remedied by now Gene, and I've been 882 00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,799 Speaker 1: recommending it widely to all my various citizens circles. I 883 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,600 Speaker 1: will just send a link or suggestion to the markups 884 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,680 Speaker 1: new citizen browser project. This is at the markup dot 885 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:17,400 Speaker 1: org slash citizen dash browser. I think it could beautifully 886 00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,239 Speaker 1: add to what you're already doing. It might make an 887 00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:22,760 Speaker 1: awesome episode thing. So this is a browser which allows 888 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:24,879 Speaker 1: you to see the flow of disinformation. We didn't talk 889 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,239 Speaker 1: a lot about technology in this season, but this is 890 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,399 Speaker 1: a great tip and we'll try to find a place 891 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,239 Speaker 1: for it in season two, and the last piece of 892 00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,759 Speaker 1: feedback I wanted to share really cut into some of 893 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,440 Speaker 1: the type of impact that I was hoping in my 894 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:44,160 Speaker 1: wildest dreams we might have. I'll just read good Morning. 895 00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:47,600 Speaker 1: I stumbled across your episode with Phil Goff and Zach 896 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,080 Speaker 1: Norris on keeping us Safe Beyond Policing. It was excellent 897 00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:54,360 Speaker 1: and very informative. I've been following Dr goss work with 898 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,600 Speaker 1: the Center for Policing Equity and will definitely continue to 899 00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,120 Speaker 1: listen to you. I'm in the process of initiating a 900 00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,920 Speaker 1: citizen survey for our community and we use some of 901 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:06,120 Speaker 1: your questions in the internal action section of your show. 902 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,120 Speaker 1: I'm now a subscriber and look forward to listening to 903 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,160 Speaker 1: future shows. Keep up the great work. You need to 904 00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:16,520 Speaker 1: be syndicated. That message came from someone who works for 905 00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: the County Sheriff's office at a police department in Colorado. 906 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:25,560 Speaker 1: That's why we do the show. We want to raise 907 00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,800 Speaker 1: the bar. We want to transform this word citizen from 908 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:33,200 Speaker 1: a state of being. Two actions that we do. We 909 00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:36,720 Speaker 1: want to build bridges and not walls, and the way 910 00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:41,640 Speaker 1: that Tonika Johnson showed us, we want to see our 911 00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,680 Speaker 1: opponents as just that and not enemies in the way 912 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,240 Speaker 1: Valerie Carr said, And we want to make our communities 913 00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:52,000 Speaker 1: better and safer. And so the idea that someone in 914 00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,360 Speaker 1: law enforcement listened to, that heard what we were really 915 00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,600 Speaker 1: putting down and took the time to write, that's just 916 00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,840 Speaker 1: really moving. Also moving the idea that we need to 917 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:03,920 Speaker 1: be syndicated. That we got a subscriber out of it. 918 00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:08,400 Speaker 1: So tell all your people about the show. If you 919 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,280 Speaker 1: have thoughts, like to share them with us. If there 920 00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:13,400 Speaker 1: are things you want to see us take on. People 921 00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:17,760 Speaker 1: you know of Citizen ng hard organizations, themes you want 922 00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:22,240 Speaker 1: us to explore an upcoming season, let me know I 923 00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,320 Speaker 1: like it. If you send a voice memo too, comments 924 00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,160 Speaker 1: at how to citizen dot com. You can type it up, 925 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,640 Speaker 1: or you can record a thing and ship it off. 926 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,760 Speaker 1: But the word of mouth really helps podcasts grow, and 927 00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,080 Speaker 1: with this second season, we look forward to growing more 928 00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:41,040 Speaker 1: with you. Thank you for riding with us on season one. 929 00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,400 Speaker 1: We'll be back with season two sometime in the first 930 00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,320 Speaker 1: quarter of one. We don't have an exact date yet, 931 00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,680 Speaker 1: and as a chance, we will drop some items in 932 00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,880 Speaker 1: your feed between now and then, maybe some best of 933 00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:57,640 Speaker 1: maybe some reflections based on your comments. No explicit promises, 934 00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,120 Speaker 1: but I'm not not promising. I'm just saying it's it's possible. 935 00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,240 Speaker 1: Like our democracy, I want you to remain open to possibilities. 936 00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:08,800 Speaker 1: In the meantime, here are some ways to stay connected. 937 00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,520 Speaker 1: I am me, I am baritun Day at Barton Day. 938 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,360 Speaker 1: On the socials. Pick one that's me, I'm there, and 939 00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,920 Speaker 1: you can text me to vote to eight nine four 940 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:21,440 Speaker 1: eight eight four four If you put the word citizen 941 00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,200 Speaker 1: in your text that I'll make sure you get updates 942 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,480 Speaker 1: about the show and things related to the podcast, including 943 00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,200 Speaker 1: when we come back. I'm gonna text people first because 944 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,640 Speaker 1: it's just the easiest thing to do. We also have 945 00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:38,120 Speaker 1: a social handle on Instagram. Finally for the show. We're 946 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,200 Speaker 1: slowly building it up, but it's how to citizen with 947 00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:46,000 Speaker 1: barratun Day on Instagram. Send us your thoughts on season one. 948 00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:49,680 Speaker 1: Constructive feedback and criticism is also welcome. We've seen some 949 00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,320 Speaker 1: of that. Thank you and ideas for where you want 950 00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,960 Speaker 1: us to go. And if you're new to the show, 951 00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,160 Speaker 1: you came in on episode sixteen, you're like, wait, what's over. 952 00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,240 Speaker 1: We've got fifteen more shows tweet and they're good. They're 953 01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,120 Speaker 1: really good. We're very proud of them. So listen back 954 01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,320 Speaker 1: to the season. We made this show not for the 955 01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,560 Speaker 1: fall of We made it to spur and investment and 956 01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:16,360 Speaker 1: to all of us showing up, building relationships, understanding our power, 957 01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,720 Speaker 1: and working on behalf of the many. And that's timeless. 958 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,920 Speaker 1: So I'd love if you revenged the whole thing. But 959 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,240 Speaker 1: in particular, there are some episodes that I think fall 960 01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,120 Speaker 1: into this transition period we're in as a nation that 961 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,720 Speaker 1: would help us and help you. The first episode with 962 01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:38,440 Speaker 1: Valerie Cower on revolutionary Love. Give that a real good 963 01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:43,720 Speaker 1: listen right now. She asks us to wonder about others 964 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,439 Speaker 1: and our opponents, and as you just heard as there 965 01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:51,920 Speaker 1: say in this episode, to be curious about ourselves and 966 01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,800 Speaker 1: those with whom we have a relationship. And that works 967 01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,200 Speaker 1: on a national scale too. Valerie opened it if they're 968 01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,160 Speaker 1: brought it home, as the same thing said differently real 969 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:06,320 Speaker 1: Listen to Valerie. Eric Leu our professor of Civics, the 970 01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,919 Speaker 1: founder of Citizen University, Coach Democracy. I got so many 971 01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:14,560 Speaker 1: code names for this dude. Listen to him in episode 972 01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:20,360 Speaker 1: two again, the episode about making work work for everyone 973 01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,320 Speaker 1: with Saru and Michelle, we have a lot of thoughts 974 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,000 Speaker 1: about the economy and the economic situation. We're still in 975 01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:29,280 Speaker 1: this pandemic. Things are still so hard. No relief is 976 01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:34,080 Speaker 1: yet in sight. Listen to that too, and help reimagine 977 01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:36,680 Speaker 1: in your own mind what an economy could look like 978 01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,720 Speaker 1: that actually worked for you, How your own worth might 979 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:43,040 Speaker 1: be better valued in an economy. Imagine that, and let's 980 01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:47,240 Speaker 1: let's go build that. The Youth Civics episode I believe 981 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,240 Speaker 1: it was episode eight with Zoe and Josh who that's 982 01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:55,960 Speaker 1: an injection of specific boost, specific booster shot to listen 983 01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:59,920 Speaker 1: to young folks and as you're virtually gathering or safely 984 01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:03,040 Speaker 1: gathering and there's more young people in your family around you, 985 01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,840 Speaker 1: talk to him, ask them what they're working on and 986 01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:10,080 Speaker 1: how you can help. It's a beautiful episode. Tonica Johnson 987 01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:13,360 Speaker 1: speaking of beauty, the building of bridges and not valls 988 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,760 Speaker 1: with her folded Map project. If ever there were a 989 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,600 Speaker 1: time that we needed to fold the map in our nation, 990 01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:24,120 Speaker 1: it is right now, So go back and get moved 991 01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:28,480 Speaker 1: by Tunica. Desmond Meade has another great episode, episode thirteen, 992 01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:32,280 Speaker 1: on voting. He's down in Florida with the Florida Rights 993 01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:36,160 Speaker 1: Restoration coalition that got amendment for a past, that got 994 01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,600 Speaker 1: voting rights for storage to people convicted of felonies, and 995 01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,000 Speaker 1: the legislature put a big dampener on that. And I'm 996 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:47,000 Speaker 1: pretty sure that Desmond's desired result in the election in 997 01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:51,280 Speaker 1: Florida was not achieved. But I'm also confident he is 998 01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,880 Speaker 1: so excited that so many more people got to participate 999 01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:57,720 Speaker 1: in the process because that's part of what he believes in. 1000 01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:00,919 Speaker 1: Desmond will get you fired and remind you of why 1001 01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:05,040 Speaker 1: we do this, which isn't just about specific electoral outcomes, 1002 01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:10,040 Speaker 1: it's about activation of us. Lastly, on the recommendation playlist, 1003 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:16,080 Speaker 1: besides listen to everything, Dr Michael Oster Home episode fifteen, 1004 01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:22,280 Speaker 1: the kindness pandemic that we need to battle, the coronavirus 1005 01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:25,280 Speaker 1: pandemic that we're suffering through right now. It was a 1006 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,520 Speaker 1: really big deal for me to get Dr Michael Olster 1007 01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,240 Speaker 1: home on this show. He set the wheels in motion 1008 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,600 Speaker 1: for me to take this seriously on March eleven and 1009 01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:37,440 Speaker 1: to have him help us close out this season. It's 1010 01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:41,400 Speaker 1: really beautiful and so were his ideas. The humility with 1011 01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:44,880 Speaker 1: which he approached the racial inequities and injustice in this country, 1012 01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,320 Speaker 1: and weaving that into the public health challenge of a pandemic. 1013 01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:54,920 Speaker 1: Very elegant, and he's now serving on incoming President Joseph 1014 01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:59,760 Speaker 1: Biden's COVID nineteen advisory panel. He's one of thirteen people, 1015 01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:02,680 Speaker 1: which leads me to think that, you know, Joe Biden 1016 01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:04,200 Speaker 1: has been looking at our guestless who else is he 1017 01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,480 Speaker 1: gonna poach? Take them all? Everyone we've had on this 1018 01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,880 Speaker 1: show should help lead this country, and everyone who's been 1019 01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:14,200 Speaker 1: a part of the show, who's listened, who's contributed, should 1020 01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:19,479 Speaker 1: also be so tap us all, President Elect Biden, because 1021 01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,040 Speaker 1: you're the president for us all, whether we voted for 1022 01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:26,880 Speaker 1: you or not. What a season, what a ride. Thank 1023 01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:30,600 Speaker 1: you for doing this with me. I will say this 1024 01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:35,040 Speaker 1: for the last time in a little while. How the 1025 01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,520 Speaker 1: Citizen with Barritton Day as a production of I Heart 1026 01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:41,920 Speaker 1: Radio Podcasts. Executive produced by Miles Gray, Nick Stump, Elizabeth 1027 01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:46,760 Speaker 1: Stewart and Barritton Day Thursty, Produced by Joel Smith, edited 1028 01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:50,120 Speaker 1: by Justin Smith. Powered by You