1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. Two thousand nine was a very good year for Tableau. 2 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: Epic high was at the height of their fame TikTok 3 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: TikTok in this Town. They've been collecting the top music 4 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: awards in Korea and had just been named best hip 5 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: Hop Artist. They were five albums deep by this point, 6 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: and it helped establish Korean hip hop as a legit genre. 7 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: They also started collaborating with major artists. They were music 8 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: a list in Korea. Flow table had also released the 9 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: best selling book of short stories that have been published 10 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: in both Korean and English. He was a regular on 11 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: TV and he was getting cameos and movies. This guy 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: was a multi hyphen it I'm killing the mic and 13 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: I'm popping eer blockets. I've been doing this college of 14 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,559 Speaker 1: presidential when I flowed Yo, it ain't hard to tell 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: I barrocked the show Obama self. Making his start that 16 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: much brighter was the fact that he had recently started 17 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: dating Hey Jung Kong, one of the most famous actresses 18 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: in Korea and who was internationally famous after starring in 19 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: the film Old Boys. That fall of two thousand nine, 20 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: they got married, and of course the paparazzi were there 21 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: and Then about six months later, a post went up 22 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: online demanding the Tableau tell the truth. The haters had arrived. 23 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: What is my name? Whatever? I can keep writing on 24 00:01:50,120 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: the first time Mark Yeah, fall from Vice and I 25 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: heart I'm Dexter Thomas and this is authentic. Episode two Tajanyo. 26 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: In the fall of two thousand nine, Epic High was 27 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: coming off of their first tour of the States promoting 28 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: their newest album, Mapped the Soul, and it was a 29 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: massive success. They also had a performance scheduled and Soul 30 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: at Olympic Park. Tableau had seen the stadium on TV 31 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: as a kid, and now he was going to perform there. 32 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: An article about the upcoming performance went up on a 33 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: news website. People were cheering them on except for one 34 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: paragraph buried deep in the comments section. It was titled 35 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: Tableaus diploma forgery. Someone with the user name what Becomes wrote, 36 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: once you are a cop by me, you cannot get 37 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: out of it. Turn your health and bastard, your bro 38 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: and sis who are also screwed. You guys who couldn't 39 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: integrate into the Canadian community and we're kicked out of 40 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: middle school. Came back to South Korea and lined up 41 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: You graduated from American universities. There are you people who 42 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: really study that those prevalenced schools don't live like you, 43 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, live, use your brain before line. Like the 44 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: billions of anonymous posts across the Internet, this comment was 45 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: lost to receive digital chatter, which in South Korea was 46 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: rapidly expanding. I want to talk to you about this 47 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: exciting thing I've discovered. I want to talk to you 48 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: tonight about the Internet. In the early to mid two 49 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: thousand's in America, the Internet wasn't really a big part 50 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: of most people's daily lives. If you wanted to find something, 51 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: it was still a toss up between Google and Alta Vista. 52 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: I'm going out on a limre. I'm gonna stand up 53 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: and be one of the first guys to say I 54 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: think this is a keeper. I mean, this thing is 55 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: here to say, Johnny get what would you like for breakfast? Johnny? 56 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: How did it go? Facebook had just launched in two 57 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: thousand four, and it wasn't that widely used yet. What 58 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: is the Facebook exactly? It's an online directory that connects people. Yeah, 59 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: we were still in the really early days of gathering 60 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: online where but the Internet in America was a good 61 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: generation behind what was already happening. In Korea, charis highly 62 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: wired country. Pigeon Lee spends a lot of time thinking 63 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: about this stuff. She teaches communications at the University of 64 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: Southern California, and people have been using Internet there used 65 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: to be called PC telecommunications, like back in the nineties. 66 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: You can think of it as like l L you've 67 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: got mail. Technology was moving fast there, and I mean 68 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: that literally. The Internet in South Korea was and still 69 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: is faster than almost anywhere else in the world. And 70 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: in the late nineties a lot of new tech companies 71 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: were popping up. One of them was called Neighbor, and 72 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: it became incredibly central to the way that Koreans live now. 73 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: Neighbor is kind of like Google mixed with Facebook, meaning 74 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: it's a lot of things. It's got a messenger app, 75 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: a car navigation app, search engine, and a shopping platform. 76 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: But maybe most importantly in those days, Neighbor was also 77 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: the home base for a bunch of online communities, and 78 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: that's when people started to actually use um these virtual communities, 79 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: and they would use the space to communicate with one another, 80 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: but also to communicate with the celebrity that the site 81 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: was created. Poor anyone on Neighbor can start a form, or, 82 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: as they call it, on Neighbor, a cafe. They launched 83 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: the feature in two thousand three, and you can think 84 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: of it kind of like a subreddit, but for context 85 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: read it didn't start until two thousand five. Korean people 86 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: started using these cafes to build community fan bases for 87 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: all kinds of things, from music, sports to politics, and 88 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: that pretty quickly ended up having real life impact on 89 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: the outside world. Cafes were immediately a natural place for 90 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: K pop fans. High speed internet connections meant that they 91 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 1: can not only find things like concert reviews and pictures 92 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: and gossip that wasn't in the magazines, but they could 93 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: also find other like minded fans. It provided a place 94 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: for community. It also provided a place for things to 95 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: get intense. Modern fandom in Korea is pretty intricately tied 96 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: to the development of the Internet and sites like Neighbor, 97 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: and it's developed some slang terms for phenomena that have 98 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: happened there. On one end, you've got sassaying, which is 99 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: a fan that crosses the line from stand into a 100 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: borderline criminal obsession. On the other extreme is the anti fan, 101 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: which is exactly what It sounds like people who have 102 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: the same energy and passion of a die hard K 103 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: pop stand, but they're dedicated to hating a particular celebrity 104 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: and their fans. But in the early days, Tableau wasn't 105 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: even worth an anti fans time. Neither he nor Epic 106 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: High were popular enough, so when people started posting about Tableau, 107 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: they had to dig pretty deep to final videos. This 108 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: clip is from Tableau's first TV appearance on a talk 109 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: show called Yashi Manman. It was December two thousand four. 110 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: Epic High had just released their second album and basically 111 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: no one really knew who they were. This appearance was 112 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: a big deal for Tableau because Yahi Mind Mind was 113 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: one of the most popular shows in Korea at the time. 114 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: But if you watch it, you can tell that Tableau's 115 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: feeling kind of out of place. Pretty much everyone on 116 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: that stage is an actual famous celebrity, and you know 117 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: they have that aura. You can tell through the language 118 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: barrier that this person's got it Tableau. Though he's wearing 119 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: this nerdy blue v Nex sweater, he's got a button 120 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: up and a tie, and most of the time he's 121 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: pretty quiet. It's not until about fourteen minutes into the 122 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: show that Tableau actually gets to say much anything. Someone 123 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: had brought up the topic of affairs and cheating on 124 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: your spouse. Tableau wasn't married, but he kind of gingerly 125 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: starts to chime in. Can check out the Tablou starts 126 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: telling this story about how one day he found out 127 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: his girlfriend had been cheating on him, so he confronts her, 128 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,719 Speaker 1: but instead of yelling at her, he just sort of 129 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: matter of fact he says that she shouldn't go out 130 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: with somebody that she doesn't truly love. And as he's talking, 131 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: the crowd and the hosts they're they're drawn in, they're 132 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: hanging on to every word, and he continues the story 133 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: saying that his girlfriend agreed with him that you should 134 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: only go out with someone you truly love, so she 135 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: dumped him and started dating the other guy, and the 136 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: crowd absolutely just erupts with laughter. Chris, how are you doing? 137 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: Just could it wasn't anything interesting, But honestly, I think 138 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: the fact that it was mentioned during the show that 139 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: I had gone to Stanford, that I had graduated early 140 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: from Stanford, that I was possibly a genius, and you know, 141 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 1: I played into it. Of course, that one show aired, 142 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: and I walked outside and people were like following me 143 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: and stuff. Overnight, everybody was trying to find out who 144 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: I was. Tableau was just good on TV. His persona 145 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: kind of had something for everyone. Parents like the Stanford 146 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: pedigree because that was a good example for the kids. 147 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: Teenagers like the rebellious rapper attitude, and TV producers. They 148 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: loved having this guy who could hit both of those 149 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: demographics in one package. The oddball genius rapper and all 150 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: this just you know, was a nice package and and 151 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: it definitely worked in our favor. Once Tableau's label realized this, 152 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: they started to send him and the rest of Epic 153 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: High on as many TV shows as possible ahead of 154 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: the third album, released in two thousand five. This album 155 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: was actually meant to be their Hail Mary. If this 156 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: didn't give him a hit, they were going to give up, 157 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: and really the signs were pointing to it not working. 158 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: The TV appearances were nice, but that didn't change the 159 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: fact that Epic High was an underground hip hop group 160 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: whose two other albums didn't really sell. The fact that 161 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: we weren't making any money was really difficult, and it 162 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: had been a while. Right two thousand two, to two 163 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: thousand four or five, and we're still like, we're literally poor, 164 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: and I'm like, we can't do that forever. This was 165 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: supposed to be our final, like album, and we're done, 166 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: so let's just make the music like, let's just do 167 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: everything we wanted. Hence the third album is called Swan Songs. 168 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: So the album came out and that Hail Mary they 169 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: put up it connected. The main single was called Fly 170 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: and it was an absolute kit and we dropped. The 171 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: album immediately went to number one on every chart. Their 172 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: earlier music was more raw, underground, college, backpacker style hip hop. 173 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: Fly is none of that. It's catchy, it's slick, and 174 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: it was exactly what the market was looking for. Epic 175 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: High went from a niche group that only had underground 176 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: cloud on hobbyist message boards to the center of the mainstream, 177 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: which meant more press, more interviews, and more TV tableaus 178 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: on camera. Personality was that enticing dichotomy. The TV loves 179 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: the genius bad boy, the Stanford grad who ditched being 180 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: a lawyer to do hip hop. The concept itself was provocative, 181 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: and his care free vibe just played that up. But 182 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: provocative can kind of be a double edged sword, especially 183 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: on Korean TV, and actually he's image on TV was 184 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: I should not say that it is not great, but 185 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: Utuh Lee is a professor at George Mason University where 186 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: he teaches about the Korean music industry. He's a huge 187 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: hip hop fan. He was an early Epic High fan 188 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: back in the day, and every now and again he'd 189 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: go to the concerts. I remember that he Epic High 190 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: gave a kind of brochure before the show talking about 191 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: Carl Marx, capitalism and criticism about the like the Neo 192 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: de Roaltum or something. Epic High had been outspoken about 193 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: politics and society since their debut record. Tableau in particular 194 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: saw his lyrics as a way to talk about what 195 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: was going on in the world, which is what people 196 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: expect from a hip hop record, but it wasn't what 197 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: people expected on prime time Korean TV. When he appeared 198 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: on variety shows or the sitcom he didn't seem to 199 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: be really serious and Tableau when he made appearances on 200 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: all these entertainment shows, a lot of focus would be 201 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: on his experience studying. He wasn't really uh like the 202 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: Koreans would expect. Story of hardship, paging Lee of University 203 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: of Southern California. Again like, oh, I've worked hard, Like 204 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: I had less of four hours sleep every day preparing 205 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: for exams. That wasn't a story that Tableau was offering. Pready. 206 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: Often when Tableau would be on TV, someone would ask 207 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: him what life was like in an American university. On 208 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: one of those shows, the host said that he'd heard 209 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: that it Harvard people would go running naked after exams. 210 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: Tablow said, yeah, that happens at Stanford too. He goes 211 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: on to say that along with studying, this is all 212 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: a normal part of American college life, which it's true, 213 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: It just wasn't a sort of serious conversation that people 214 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: were used to hearing from a graduate of a prestigious 215 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: university on Korean TV. And then there was the fact 216 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: that Tablow had never done the mandatory military service that 217 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: nearly all South Korean men under twenty eight are required 218 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: to do. So he's exempt from it because he is 219 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: a Canadian citizen. So he has all these qualities, uh 220 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: that are considered to be a sign a privilege in Korea. UM, 221 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: And the thing is he's using that privilege to evade 222 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: responsibility as a Korean citizen, or at least that's you know, 223 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: how Korean people were taking it above the surface. These 224 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: questions or doubts didn't really affect Epic High's mainstream success, 225 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: but there was always an undercurrent for some people. Tablow 226 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: came off is too untraditional. He talked about how he 227 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: got kicked out of school because he was he was 228 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: caught in a fight um or how he almost like failed, 229 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: Like he had a lot of stories that kind of 230 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: went against stories of people who went to good universities. 231 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: After that hit album Swan Songs came out in two 232 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: thousand five, Tableau started to slow down with the TV stuff. 233 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: He had accomplished his mission, which was to get his 234 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: foot in the door with the Korean public. Now he 235 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: wanted to get back to his real focus, the music. 236 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: You know, I had gotten sick of being on TV. 237 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: I was overworked. I was taking like, you know, painkillers 238 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: to be on TV at this point, but I knew 239 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: I was like, okay, now I can make my own decisions. 240 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: Epic Haig spent the next few years making music and 241 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: playing shows in Korea and Japan. They did their first 242 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: US tour in the spring of two thousand nine, and 243 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: they sold out venues in New York in l A 244 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: promoting their first release under their own label. Then that fall, 245 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: DJ two cuts head to report for his mandatory two 246 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: year military service, left Mithra and Tableau to finish their 247 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: seventh studio album. Soon after that, Mithra also had to 248 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: leave for his own military service. In the midst of 249 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: all that, I think is when I first heard from 250 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: my label that they had received a Manila envelope with 251 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: a bunch of documents with conspiracy theories kind of about me, 252 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: basically a PR packet for why why I'm a fraud? 253 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: But you know, my mind was on like having a child, 254 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: you know, and becoming a dad. While I was busy 255 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: watching The Simpsons eating cheeseballs with my wife. This had 256 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: circulated to the point where it was already agreed upon 257 00:17:47,680 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: that it was probably true. That's after the break m like, 258 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: you know, like normal people do. I fell in love 259 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: and I was getting married and I was going to 260 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: have a kid, and then time passes and it's my 261 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: daughter is born and I'm at the hospital and it's 262 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: like it's like an indescribable awe and confusion, like that 263 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: I've created a living being and like I'm holding. It's 264 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: just an emotion that I can't really describe. And we're 265 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 1: at the hospital for a day or two, and you know, 266 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: I took a picture of I think my daughter's like 267 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: foot or hand, and and Twitter was like slowly a 268 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: thing now, and I thought, you know, you have to 269 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: share every thing, right, so especially the first, you know, 270 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: the birth of your first kid. So I posted the 271 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: picture and I was like I just had my daughter, 272 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: my wife is safe, thank God, and stuff like this, 273 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: and I posted it and then some mentions are coming 274 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: in and I'm looking and some of them are like congrats, 275 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: but a lot of them are like why don't you 276 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: fucking explain yourself? And some of them are outright like 277 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: just die what about your lies? And my wife is 278 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: like right next to me, I'm like visibly shocked. She 279 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: can see your face. Yeah, and she's like what what 280 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: do they? What are people saying? Right? But I was 281 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: like I was just give me a second year. I like, 282 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: I have to just just give me a second. And 283 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: I try to figure out what was going on. I 284 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: explained to my wife as best as I could, but 285 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: I didn't want to like stress her out into situation. 286 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: So I said Oh yeah, I just yeah, they're congratulating 287 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: on spontane like people are spreading rumors about me. It 288 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: was a thing. Now. What had started as a wayward 289 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: post on an article comments section the follow two thousand 290 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: nine had quietly spread. In May, a new neighbor cafe 291 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: forum was created. It had a catchy name so touching 292 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: your means or touching your gage, and shiger yamida, which 293 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: means we demand tru from Tableau. The founder of the 294 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: forum stated that it was quote dedicated to uncovering the 295 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: truth about Tableau. He started posting videos from old TV interviews, documents, 296 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: and anything he could find to back up his claims 297 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 1: that Tableau was lying. The initial motivations of the forum 298 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: are a little murky. Some people argue that it started 299 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: with anti fans, people who were just intra didn't seeing 300 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: Tableau fall, but members of the forum would insist that 301 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: it was always about the pursuit of truth, that they 302 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: knew that Tableau was lying about his degree and they 303 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 1: wanted the line to stop. And first I thought it 304 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: was just bizarre, like, you know, why would why would 305 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: this be a big deal. Within a matter of weeks, 306 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: Tajano was getting hundreds of comments a day. Users were 307 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: sharing articles and videos. They also started looking into anything 308 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: or anyone that could have a connection to Tableau at Stanford. 309 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: After a while, what I do remember is people kept asking, Hey, 310 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: didn't you go to Stanford? Do you know about this 311 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: whole Tableau situation. At the time, Sean Limb was working 312 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: as a journalist for one of Korea's biggest broadcasting companies. 313 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: Sean was a year ahead of Tableau when they met 314 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: at Stanford. What was your relationship like with him? YouTube? 315 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: Personally it was it was for a while sort of 316 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: like brothers. Really yeah, close. I felt like I was 317 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: really close with him, Like there was a time, there 318 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: was a period like maybe about I would say, two 319 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: quarters that we were like always together, like especially like 320 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: we're in the same dorm, like seeing each other like 321 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: practically every day. They went different ways after college. Sean 322 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: stayed in the US for a couple of years before 323 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: moving to Korea and pursuing broadcast journalism, but they still 324 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: kept in contact. Sean was proud of his college buddy, 325 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: but he didn't brag about it or anything, so he 326 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: didn't have much occasion to talk about Tableau with strangers. 327 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: But then the rumors started getting bigger, and he found 328 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: himself in some weird conversations. So somebody would ask you, hey, 329 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: was Tableau there when you were there? I'm like, yes, 330 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: of course, they're really are you sure? And then it 331 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: increasingly came from people who are like producers, like people 332 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: who were like, I'm supposed to like not have an 333 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: attitude with, not think that they're stupid. I have to 334 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: work with, have to trust their news judgment. So people 335 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: were like just like ravenous, like like zombies, just trying 336 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: to like like suck the blood. As the forum grew, 337 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: individual users started getting a sort of celebrity status within 338 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: the group. One of them was a user posting under 339 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: the name what Becomes What Becomes posted a lot, often 340 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: multiple times a day, and they were pretty forceful on 341 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: May sixt what becomes Roge just get the transcript from 342 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: Stanford and show it to us. Instead of saying, I 343 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: have a friend who can confirm that I did study 344 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: at Stanford, why can't you just show us the transcript. 345 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: This will all be over if you show us just 346 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: one document, turn yourself into the police and say that 347 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: you forged diplomas, you bastard. South Korea is notching playground 348 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: where you just come in and pray on others. It 349 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: seemed like they were new allegations every day. That original 350 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: statement that Tableau was lying about his college degree turned 351 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: into deeper accusations about identity theft, fraud, and conspiracy. That Tableau, 352 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: whose real name was Daniel Lee, had stolen the identity 353 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: of a real Stanford graduate who was also named Daniel Lee. 354 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: Or maybe he didn't steal it, maybe he paid the 355 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: real Daniel Lee off to keep quiet, or maybe he 356 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: killed Daniel and took his diploma and he was able 357 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: to get away with this because he was being protected 358 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: by the media and the Korean government, or maybe it 359 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,479 Speaker 1: was the American government, maybe the FBI and also Korean 360 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: elites had something to hide and they were protecting their own. 361 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,239 Speaker 1: But the one thing that everyone continued to question was 362 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: his degree. Could Tableau really have graduated from Stanford with 363 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: a bachelor's and a master's in just three and a 364 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: half years. Taijano wasn't just commenting. They were also doing 365 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: their own research. Their efforts weren't very coordinated, especially not 366 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: at first. Some people didn't go much further than just 367 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: copying and pasting stuff. They had heard elsewhere, but there 368 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: were others who were much more focused. They were searching 369 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: and gathering documents, and then one day they got their 370 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: hands on what they believed was a smoking gun, Tableau's 371 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: supposed diploma. When Tableau started going on TV talk shows 372 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,719 Speaker 1: like to show a picture of his diploma on the screen, 373 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: it was already out there, so it wasn't too hard 374 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: to find an image of that online. But then a 375 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: taijan you know member found a diploma from another Stanford student, 376 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: and the signature from the university president on that student's 377 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: diploma looked completely different from the one on Tableaus. The 378 00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: Taijenio message boards blew up. This was huge. They needed 379 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: to find someone who had graduated in two thousand one. 380 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: If that signature looked different, they could prove that tableaus 381 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: diploma was fake and the Tableau was a liar. Hey, John, 382 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: this is this is Dexter from Weice. I am downstairs, okay. 383 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: John Shank is a lawyer. He graduated from Stanford with 384 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: a bachelor's degree in English in two thousand one, the 385 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: year before Tableau. I met him in Los Angeles. Last fall, 386 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: I started getting phone calls from somebody and he asked 387 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: me what my name was. About ten years ago, John 388 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: was in his office and I told him I was 389 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: John Shank, you know. And he said he was part 390 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: of a group and he was hoping to get a 391 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: copy of my diploma. And I would just hang and 392 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: I'm just like, who is this weirdo? He got another call, 393 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: then another, and each time John would say the same thing. Look, 394 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: I'm hanging up now, let's please stop calling me. But 395 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: after yet another call, John was just about to hang up, 396 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: and then the guy said, wait, we'll pay you ten 397 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So I went, okay, let's let's hear some more. 398 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: Ten thousand dollars. That's how much the person on the 399 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: phone was offering John to make a copy of his 400 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: Stanford diploma. And then and then I started asking, okay, 401 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 1: you're gonna pay me ten tho dollars and then then 402 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: it's mine and that you don't want me to give 403 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: you any money, or hold any money or do anything. John, again, 404 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: is a lawyer and he's seen all kinds of scams, 405 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: so he was skeptical. But the guy on the phone 406 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: assured John that this was not a scam and he 407 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: was a real person. This movement that he was part 408 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: of to basically capture Tableau in a lie was just 409 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: a side gig for him. He was a musician, he 410 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: was a real person, and he's like, I'm and he 411 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: told me, he was like, you know, I live in 412 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: Beverly Hills. If you want, we can meet at the 413 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: part because there's a little park next to the montage. 414 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, sure, that would be a 415 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: great way to check him out, see if he's for real. 416 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: So on the day of their appointment, John shows up 417 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: to the park. He's a little apprehensive, but when the 418 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: man from the phone call shows up, he seems pretty normal. 419 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: He seemed very honest, he seemed very sincere about his cause. 420 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: It seemed important to him. And so what what specifically 421 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: dasy ask you for at that at that moment, he 422 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: didn't really ask me for much other than he wants 423 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: he's been saying from the beginning, he'd like a copy 424 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: of my diploma so they can should prove that Tableau 425 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: faked his diploma, okay, right, And so I kind of 426 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: was like, all right, if you want to copy of 427 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: my diploma, I'll give you a copy of my diploma. 428 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: It's nothing wrong. With that, right. So then I well, 429 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: then I went back to my law firm and talked 430 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: to every friend and every colleague in there to see 431 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: if anybody could come up with an explanation of how 432 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: this could possibly be a scam that I was, you know, 433 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: inadvertently walking into right, and nobody could really come up 434 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: with anything. Everyone's like, no, it seems like I just 435 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: gonna give you some money. You should take it. He 436 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: had one hang up though. They all seemed really fixated 437 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: on this Tableau guys document. John, being a lawyer, figured 438 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: that he ought to have a look at the paperwork too, 439 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: so before he decided to go through with it, John 440 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: asked the musician to give him whatever copy of Tableau's 441 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: diploma that they had. So the guy gave it to him, 442 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,959 Speaker 1: and I compared to my diploma, and the signatures matched 443 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: the signature of the president who signs the diploma. That's 444 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: what they were looking for. Because of the signatures didn't match, 445 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: they could point to Tablow's diploma and say, see that's 446 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: a fate. I compared them and I said, these are 447 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: exactly the same signature, and yeah, and so I so 448 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: when I called to say, hey, I have my diploma 449 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: I compared to Tableaus and they're the same. Are you 450 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: still sure you want to do this? And they're like, yeah, 451 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: we do. Wait weirder still right. I was like, this 452 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: is not good evidence for you. I told him that, 453 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: and then they say they wanted anyway. He said, no, 454 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: don't worry about it, just come and pay you ten bucks. 455 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: So John asked another lawyer friend to come with him 456 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: to do this thing. They drove to an office and 457 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: they would invited to sit down in the room. The 458 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: musician was there, along with another couple of people who 459 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: didn't talk much. They got right to business. He pulled 460 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: out his trust account check book and build out to 461 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: check and put it on the table. So, okay, here's 462 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: the check. Can I see your diploma? Put my diploma 463 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: on the table, and then they took it over the 464 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: coffee machine and made a copye. But before they gave 465 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: him the money, they sprung one final thing on him. 466 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: They wanted him to sign a statement. Nothing major, just 467 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,479 Speaker 1: a simple question. Um. They asked me if I had 468 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: ever seen Tableau on campus, and I said I didn't 469 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: know him. I need some statement to that effect and 470 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: signed it and that was it. That was it. Next morning, 471 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: as soon as the bank opened, I went to the 472 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: bank and got cash. The check it's tang straight up 473 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: actually had it charged me five dollars to give me 474 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: a cash on the spot. And then I and then 475 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: I walked across the street that I was far ago 476 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: and deposited in my bank account. And that was it, 477 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: and that was it what my heart was pumping. John's 478 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: a responsible dude, so he put the money in his 479 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: savings and that was it. Was over, or so he thought. 480 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: A little while later, he heard from the musician again. 481 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: The musician guy was asking me, um if I would 482 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: be willing to go to Seoul and give testimony. John said, no, thanks, 483 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: I'm done. But I also thought to myself, you know what, 484 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: that might be getting too close to this weird conspiracy 485 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: theory world, and I don't want until I kind of 486 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: shied away from that. You said, you did you were 487 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: getting too close to a weird conspiracy theory. Was that 488 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: were you sort of be in the headspace where, hey, look, yeah, 489 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: I didn't really want to be associated with this group. 490 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: You know. It just seemed like they were really holding 491 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:16,239 Speaker 1: on to an obvious and obviously incorrect perception. They were 492 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: clearly misguided. John's diploma did not help prove Tableau was lying. 493 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: The signatures on the diploma is matched. If anything, this 494 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: was more proof that Tableau was telling the truth. That's 495 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: not what the Tagno movement wanted to hear. But they 496 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: had a kind of a fail safe that document they'd 497 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: asked John to sign, asking if he'd known Tableau while 498 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: he was at Stanford. He told him the truth, which 499 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: was that he didn't. It's not shocking because they were 500 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: around two thousand students in John and Tableau is graduating class. 501 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: But the Tajano movement latched onto that statement. John's diploma 502 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: wasn't helpful to them anymore. But wait, if Tableau went 503 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: to Stanford, how could John not knowing and they had 504 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: a signed document saying that he didn't. People on ta 505 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: Janyo were convinced that this was further proof that table 506 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: was never even at Stanford and that he should be 507 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: punished for his crimes. That crime thing they were serious about. 508 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: That forgery is a criminal offense in Korea, and if 509 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: Tableau had been giving out a fake document, he could 510 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: be facing up to five years in jail or a 511 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: fine of ten million one which in us money is 512 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: a little over eight thousand dollars. But that fine wasn't 513 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: enough of ta janyo. They wanted him behind bars. Now, 514 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: have you ever had any contact with Tableau? No? What 515 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: what would you say to him? If if you two 516 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: were to talk? Do you think I'd say? You know? 517 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: That must have really sucked that experience for him. He 518 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: really had like a huge portion of his country one 519 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: after for something he didn't do. You had a small 520 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: part in that. I think I helped him, do you. 521 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: I gave the evidence that showed that his diploma was accurate. 522 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: M It has to be so weird to be at all, 523 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: even obliquely involved in such a life changing thing for somebody. 524 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: I mean, look, if someone offered me ten g's to 525 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: make a photo copy of my diploma, I mean, just 526 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: a more detailed version of what's already on my resume, 527 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: I probably would have said yeah. And John was smart 528 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: enough to pull himself out of this situation before it 529 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: had a chance to get really weird, he says it. 530 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: For years this was mostly just a funny story he 531 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: could tell over drinks at the bar. The fact that 532 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: there was obvious evidence that refuted the things that the 533 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: Tajo wanted to prove and that they are interested in 534 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: that part of it is despite that, hey, look this 535 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: is this is bad for you. Is sort of mind bending. 536 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: I mean, if there's anything that we have learned in 537 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,879 Speaker 1: the past let's call it five years, that evidence does 538 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: not persuade anybody, you know. I mean a lot of 539 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: people apparently can believe a lot of things regardless of 540 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: what the obvious facts might be, and this was just 541 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: an instance of that that people will believe what they 542 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: want to believe. By June, the rumors were reaching beyond Tableau. 543 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: His family was now being accused of helping him to 544 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: forge his diploma. His father was being called a con man, 545 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: and they were accusing his brother of lying about his 546 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: own college degree. The tajan Forum now had more than 547 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand members, and if this stuff had stayed 548 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: on Taijano, that would have been one thing. But it's 549 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: spread because the media found this forum fascinating, and so 550 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: whenever Tijanio would come up with the new accusation, the 551 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: media would latch on and it would make headlines. This 552 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 1: exposed more new people to the conspiracy theories and the 553 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: Tajen Your forums grew and grew. By this point, things 554 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: were bleeding out into the real world. Tableau's inbox was 555 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 1: flooded with emails from people sending pictures of smashed epic 556 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: high CDs. His voicemail was full of angry messages and accusations. 557 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: His TV appearances were getting canceled. Tableau was barely able 558 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: to leave the house because anytime he did people would 559 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: follow him and stare. He was getting yelled at by 560 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: random strangers on the street, calling him a liar and 561 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: a cheat. This was all happening within weeks of that 562 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: first comment being posted online. Soon after this, there were 563 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: actual street protests against table popping up all over the city. 564 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: At first, Tableau hadn't said much. He thought this was 565 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: just some weird internet stuff that would fizzle out. But 566 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 1: it didn't, and two members of Tajno Tableau's silence started 567 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: to look like evidence that he was lying. But then 568 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: in June, an article about Tableau came out in the 569 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: Jungang Daily. This wasn't just some site. It was a 570 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: respectable media outlet, one of the biggest newspapers in Korea, 571 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,720 Speaker 1: who was a serious article. But most importantly, it featured 572 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: a copy of Tableau's full transcript. Before this, all most 573 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: people had seen was a screenshot of his diploma. This though, 574 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: this was the long form document, the credits, He took 575 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: the names of the teachers, the grades, and of course 576 00:37:53,760 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: the Stanford Seal, an official complete document. This was exactly 577 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: what had been looking for, and Tablo hadn't just given 578 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: the newspaper his documents. He did an interview with the reporter, 579 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: and honestly, I walked out of the interview and as 580 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: soon as the articles were out, like a rational person, 581 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: I thought it was done. A few hours later when 582 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: I learned that that was not going to be the case. 583 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: That people were not accepting these documents as real. They 584 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: were saying my diploma was doctored. They were saying the 585 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: transcript was fake. It made no difference, and as it 586 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: turned out, Taijano was just getting started next time on authentic. 587 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: They were trying to attack everybody who was associated with 588 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: Tableau and talk about docks, and they were really good. 589 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: You know how people think that, like, you know, like, hey, 590 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: don't think about the comments, Hey, don't worry about the comments, 591 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: don't don't read the comments. That's not real, you know, 592 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: that's detached from reality. All you gotta do is turn 593 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: your computer off, dude. Just unplug logout man, and you're fine. 594 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: I gotta say, like the experience I had, it wasn't detached. 595 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: You know, people were threatening me online. I tried to 596 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: turn it off, but in the real world it still 597 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: happened like it was connected. Authentic is a production of 598 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: Vice Audio and I Heeart Podcast Network, produced and reported 599 00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: by Stephanie Karayuki, Minji Coo, Kate Osborne, and myself with 600 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: Janet Lee, Stephanie Brown and Sam Egan. Sound design and 601 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: original music composition by Kyle Murdoch, with additional support from 602 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: Natasha Jacobs. Our supervising producer is Janet Lee, editing from 603 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: Lacy Roberts, fact checking by Minji Ku and Nikole Pasuka. 604 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Isney Bobo Nooiet for Epic High's original 605 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: concert footage. This episode features Epic High music from their 606 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: album Swan Songs and Map the Soul, distributed by c 607 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: J Music. Our executive producer and VP of Vice Audio 608 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 1: is Kate Osbourne. From I Heeart Podcast Network, executive producers 609 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: Nikki e Tor and Lindsay Hoffman. I'm Dexter Thomas make 610 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast so you 611 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 1: don't miss an episode. And if you dig it, give 612 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: us a rating and a review, and don't forget to 613 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: check us out on Twitter and Instagram at Vice Moves