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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Smantha falcome stuff. I'll never

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Speaker 1: told you protection I heard you, and welcome to a

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Speaker 1: classic uh one that has been on my mind as

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Speaker 1: of late. As you will know if you listened to

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Speaker 1: our recent dappy hours. This comes out how about queer wating,

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Speaker 1: and it's about shipping and how that can look and

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Speaker 1: how the ups and downs, the highs and lows of shipping.

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Speaker 1: I do have to say it's pretty funny when you

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Speaker 1: start looking at it, because me and my best friend

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Speaker 1: were like, you know, if we were on TV, they

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Speaker 1: probably would ship us just because you start looking at

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Speaker 1: things didn't really like, wait a minute, oh okay, which

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Speaker 1: is a very fun It was a fun exercise and

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Speaker 1: we got to go down, don't you?

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Speaker 2: And Lauren?

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Speaker 1: There is fan fiction of me. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: anybody ever published the ones with me and Lauren. There

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Speaker 1: was one being bridge it too. Oh I haven't looked,

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Speaker 1: and they were super cute. I found them very sweet,

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Speaker 1: and it was very funny because they immediately pegged me

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Speaker 1: as the shy one and Lauren and Bridget as the

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Speaker 1: more forward one. It was it was interesting because it

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Speaker 1: was like reading a version of yourself that people here

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Speaker 1: see in a digital space, but they don't actually know you,

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Speaker 1: so I didn't. I was not weird a doubt about

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Speaker 1: it at all. I thought it was kind of funny,

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Speaker 1: and I appreciated that they because it was a couple

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Speaker 1: of listeners and they wrote in to me and was like,

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Speaker 1: here it is. So I appreciated that they were open

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Speaker 1: enough to share that with me because I did enjoy it,

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Speaker 1: which I don't know. Maybe that makes me sound really pompous,

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Speaker 1: but I just thought it was cute. But yes, I

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Speaker 1: have gone on a whole journey lately and I've learned

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Speaker 1: a lot, so I thought I would bring back this

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Speaker 1: classic episode, although I think we're also going to have

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Speaker 1: to update this one not with some things that's a

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Speaker 1: problem for future us. In the meantime, please enjoy. Hey,

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Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Staphone Ever

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Speaker 1: told you protection of iHeartRadio, And today we are recording

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Speaker 1: an episode that I'm not sure when it will come out,

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Speaker 1: but I'm very excited about it.

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Speaker 2: We've been talking about this episode for a minute.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have actually I think over a year at least,

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Speaker 1: but it was I really got a catalyst when our

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Speaker 1: friend of the show. Listener Jamie wrote in and suggested, quote,

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Speaker 1: what about shipping and problematic ships like the non con

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Speaker 1: forcing a sexual aspect into a friendship and shipping wars

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Speaker 1: with the related internet abuse, which for some of you,

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Speaker 1: I bet you're like, what does that mean? We're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about it, We're gonna break it all out. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is this is a big conversation right now, and

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Speaker 1: it's changed so much since I started being Fanish in

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Speaker 1: the fan space, so there's a lot to go over

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Speaker 1: in a lot of history. This might be a two parter.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it will be, but who knows. We'll see,

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Speaker 1: We'll see.

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Speaker 2: You always have like I feel like you and I

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Speaker 2: have both are like, it's not gonna be that long,

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Speaker 2: and it ends up being either the full amount and

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Speaker 2: then some and especially for those who are like maybe well,

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Speaker 2: but then again, we've also had those moments it's like,

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Speaker 2: this is gonna be really long, and then it ends

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Speaker 2: up being not.

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Speaker 1: Not yeah, yes, yes, it's so it's hard to say

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Speaker 1: because I do have a lot of thoughts about this,

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Speaker 1: and I'm actually going to put my thoughts at the

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Speaker 1: end of this episode slash episodes, but I'm built they'll

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Speaker 1: be throughout. I'm sure. I just have a lot of opinions.

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Speaker 1: So very brief spoilers for Good Omens season two, very

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Speaker 1: vague h and at the end and I'll give a

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Speaker 1: heads up. But uh, big part of the conversation right now,

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Speaker 1: shall I say?

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Speaker 2: My TikTok is full of Michael and David like doing

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Speaker 2: their little uh parody shows is the entire thing. And

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Speaker 2: I guess because Good Omens too had come out, there's

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Speaker 2: more like ads and I'm like, why I don't even

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Speaker 2: know them? That will help, but they're really funny.

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Speaker 1: It also could be that you sent me one.

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Speaker 2: I did well because I've been getting them in my feet.

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Speaker 2: I was like, why am I getting so much of

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Speaker 2: this content? And then when I asked, dude, you were like, no,

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen because they did the whole Zoom show

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Speaker 2: web series, I believe with the director from Good Omens,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, have you not seen this? Well,

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Speaker 2: you definitely have to because it's right up your rally

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Speaker 2: and I've never seen good Omens either.

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Speaker 1: I do love good Omens. Oh well, getting into so

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Speaker 1: today we are talking about shipping, but I guess that

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Speaker 1: we should start with a definition for people who might

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Speaker 1: not know what is shipping.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and I love that this is from Urban Dictionary,

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Speaker 2: because we do talk about a lot of like fanfic

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Speaker 2: words from Urban Dictionary, don't we. So it is from

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Speaker 2: Urban Dictionary. The act of one wanting supporting two individuals

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Speaker 2: involved in a romantic relationship a verb used to describe

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Speaker 2: the action of wishing for two people to enter a relationship,

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Speaker 2: whether romantic or occasionally platonic, in books, movies, tv shows,

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Speaker 2: or real life. Shipping can often happen involuntarily, and it

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Speaker 2: is the majority of what happens on the website Tumblr,

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Speaker 2: really tumbler. There are some very popular ships, some unpopular,

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Speaker 2: as well as often lots of controversy between ships from

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Speaker 2: the same fando.

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Speaker 1: I would also say that it can include two or

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Speaker 1: more individuals. This says two people, It can be it

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Speaker 1: can be more poly cool. But yeah, that's that's pretty

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Speaker 1: that's pretty good. Uh, that's where the name comes from.

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Speaker 1: Relationshipping shipping.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what with people who are not

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Speaker 2: a part of the fanfic world, because I've noticed this

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Speaker 2: as I'm on like a lot of the K pop

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Speaker 2: yep tiktoks that when they do the shipping. I get

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Speaker 2: very confused thinking it's real because they do this like

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Speaker 2: montage and I'm like, wait, are they is this true?

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Speaker 2: I'm very confused, and I think it take it as

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Speaker 2: a reality because when they do that with real people,

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Speaker 2: I'm very I'm very confused about what just happened.

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Speaker 1: Essentially, Oh yes, oh my gosh, I'm glad you brought

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Speaker 1: that up actually, because I'm not even going to talk

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Speaker 1: about in here, but that is something people do, like

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Speaker 1: we'll make videos, will make this content that you're like,

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Speaker 1: wait what.

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Speaker 2: And then they'll just like rumored things on there that

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Speaker 2: I'm like, what did that happen? Did that really happen?

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Speaker 2: Where they're like the main of course, the ones that

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Speaker 2: I've seen the most of has been like Stray Kids

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Speaker 2: and of course BTS, but the BTS one has kind

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Speaker 2: of wavered down, and the stray Kads have a lot

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Speaker 2: more content because of it, Like they're very affectionate kids

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Speaker 2: with each other, Like I'm not sure if they are

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Speaker 2: if they are together, wonderful, But I'm like, y'all are

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Speaker 2: confusing me as a person who has no idea what's

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Speaker 2: happening in this shipping fanfic world. And then you put

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Speaker 2: two real people and then put this like glossy montage

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Speaker 2: of them that I'm like, did that really happen? Is

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Speaker 2: that a thing?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Yes, it's a whole it's a whole world.

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Speaker 2: So confused. And then and I would assume that because

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Speaker 2: they are idols of swords, that the people, the fans

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Speaker 2: would not want them to be together since they're in

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Speaker 2: love with them. I thought or like they had a

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Speaker 2: you know, like but apparently it really is a thing,

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Speaker 2: a big thing that they want them to be together.

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Speaker 1: I have a lot of thoughts about this, actually, oh,

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Speaker 1: because I think and it's understandable, people get weirded out

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Speaker 1: when people ship real people. And trust me, as we've

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Speaker 1: discussed several times on the show, there are problems with that,

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Speaker 1: especially when you start hating on a real life person, right,

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Speaker 1: But I also think that a lot of times when

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Speaker 1: people ship real life people, or when they write fanfic

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Speaker 1: about real life people, that's it's not a it's not

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Speaker 1: someone you know, it's not somebody you've ever met, so

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Speaker 1: it is almost like a fictional character in that way.

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Speaker 1: And usually one person and we actually are going to

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Speaker 1: talk about this, but there's like a stand in for

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Speaker 1: the person you think you're like and stand in for

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Speaker 1: the person you want to be with. Right.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you've mentioned that before in our fanfic episodes,

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Speaker 2: but like, I found that interesting because it actually has

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Speaker 2: damaged some people's reputations because in things like South Korea

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Speaker 2: Asian countries, which is very like homophobic hunt trees, when

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Speaker 2: they did that, there would be rumors swirling about and

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Speaker 2: then like papers that would be coming out be like no,

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Speaker 2: that's not true, and having to like separate people so

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Speaker 2: even if they're really good friends, they can't be around

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Speaker 2: each other because of these like made up stories about

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Speaker 2: real people. So I'm like, oh, that's sad, but that's

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Speaker 2: an odd It's such an odd phenomenon when you see

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Speaker 2: fanfic like that go like overlapping real life.

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Speaker 1: It is interesting. I know I've said it before, but

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Speaker 1: I've I've read some fan fiction about myself and I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, cool to me.

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Speaker 2: That's closing way. Do you have a ship? Is there

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Speaker 2: a ship for you and Lauren?

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Speaker 1: There's been a ship between me and Lauren. There's been

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Speaker 1: a ship between me and Bridget. I haven't checked since

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Speaker 1: you came on. I don't know, but oh, I didn't think.

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie. I mean, I guess that makes sense,

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Speaker 2: especially if it's about you, And.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, huh, set yourself.

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Speaker 2: Would I be in that one? Would I be the like,

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Speaker 2: the unapproachable one, because isn't that how it goes? It's

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Speaker 2: the hard that's one that gets hard, that's hard, that

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Speaker 2: has to stop it up for one person.

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Speaker 1: Uh kind of, And I swear we actually are going

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Speaker 1: to talk about this. And I didn't know about this,

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Speaker 1: but I was like, oh my god. There's usually I'm

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Speaker 1: usually like the shy, embarrassed yes, and then everyone else

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Speaker 1: that I've been shipped with is like, come to this

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Speaker 1: bar with.

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Speaker 2: Me, oh dear, which would be hilarious and very fictional,

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Speaker 2: because I'm the one like, I'm not going to a

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Speaker 2: bar my house and hang out.

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Speaker 1: But that's kind of my point is that there's like

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Speaker 1: this understanding of that's funny, this flash, these flashes we

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Speaker 1: get of people online or how we understand them to be,

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Speaker 1: so it does feel kind of fictional. Like when I

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Speaker 1: read something like that, I'm like, oh, no, it's not.

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Speaker 2: It's obviously not me, but but thank you.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, go to that bar eddie.

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Speaker 2: Bar touch our hot fingers lightly at each.

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Speaker 1: Other's drinks so furiously, oh my gosh, and turn around.

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Speaker 1: Maybe this will be a two part and we haven't

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Speaker 1: even gotten a segad definition.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's too good to get

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Speaker 2: into before we start. So let's jump into the second

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Speaker 2: part of the definition.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so this is from fan lore wiki. Shipping

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Speaker 1: and fandom is the act of supporting our wishing for

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Speaker 1: a particular romantic relationship that is a het, different sex slash,

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Speaker 1: male slash male, fem slash female female, or polly three

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Speaker 1: or more characters ship by discussing it, writing meta about it,

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Speaker 1: or creating other types of fan works exploring it. Fans

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Speaker 1: who have and promote favorite ships are called shippers. They

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Speaker 1: might assert that the relationship does exist or will exist

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Speaker 1: in canon, that they would like it to exist, are

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Speaker 1: simply that they enjoy imagining it. Shippers who support multiple

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Speaker 1: ships within a single canon are often referred to as

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Speaker 1: multi shippers, especially if they support those ships equally. The

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Speaker 1: relationships that fans promote or wish for are not all happy,

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Speaker 1: fluffy bunny ones. Fans also enjoy enemy slash and wrong shipping.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that more later.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm sorry, I'm so old, but wrong ship.

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Speaker 2: It was like, as I know, you send it to

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Speaker 2: the wrong address.

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Speaker 1: I've seen reactions like that, so I don't think you're alone.

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Speaker 1: It has got a lot more mainstream though, we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about. Some shippers support relationships that are portrayed

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Speaker 1: or acknowledged as established in canon. Some shippers like relationships

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Speaker 1: that exist only as subtext, whether intentional or accidental, itself

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Speaker 1: a topic of debate, and some prefer relationships where the

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Speaker 1: characters have no subtext discern bole to non shippers. Some

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Speaker 1: fans ship characters who never even appear in Cannon together.

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Speaker 1: Later I'll talk about that. It is important to note

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Speaker 1: that some percentage of fans actively do not want their

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Speaker 1: ship to become canon, especially wrong shippers and fans who

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Speaker 1: don't trust the shows and writers to do it right.

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Speaker 1: Shippers have been known to regret it when their wish

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Speaker 1: came true. There's a very famous example of that we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about. And yes, okay, so I didn't know about this,

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Speaker 1: but when I read it, I was like, oh, obviously,

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Speaker 1: there's also anti shippers. Are no romos, no romance.

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Speaker 2: Why does that sound like an insult? I don't like that.

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Speaker 1: King who actively don't want romance between characters. They can

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Speaker 1: be just as passionate as shippers in their fight against

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Speaker 1: a ship, and some of the earliest online no romos

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Speaker 1: feel that they lost when Moulder and Scully's relationship became canon,

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Speaker 1: because if you haven't seen X files, that's actually where

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Speaker 1: shipping the term first showed up. They did, Moulder and

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Speaker 1: Scully did eventually get together, and.

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Speaker 2: So was it always the plan? Though?

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Speaker 1: Oh I don't think so. But yeah. They often say

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Speaker 1: that they want to believe that relationships can be platonic.

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Speaker 1: Gonna break that down later too. There's a lot to

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Speaker 1: break down in this.

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Speaker 2: I think this is going to be a two part

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Speaker 2: of right.

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Speaker 1: I think we'll see this is fun. We'll all find

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Speaker 1: out together. It is something fandoms love to fight over,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes in a healthy way and sometimes in a

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Speaker 1: very very very unhealthy way, but it is often something

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Speaker 1: people bond over too. The ship typically has a name,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes one of the first questions fans will ask

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Speaker 1: each other when that Dido song came out, I will

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Speaker 1: go down with this ship at became a very popular meme,

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Speaker 1: especially because David Boriannis was in that music video and

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Speaker 1: Angel Buffy Spike shipping.

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Speaker 2: Which has a hall a lot of shipping, I'm sure,

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Speaker 2: because also has her own little.

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Speaker 1: She does she does Buffy the Vampire Slayer is big

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Speaker 1: in this conversation, so you can look forward to that too.

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Speaker 2: It's supernatural too. Yeah, I think that's the first notification

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Speaker 2: of me knowing about shipping was of course Dusty l

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Speaker 2: But I was.

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Speaker 1: Like, what is that? Oh, yes, yes, yes, I.

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Speaker 2: Feel like that's my theme phrase. What exactly?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think so as.

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Speaker 1: A dragon Con approaches, I think this will come out

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Speaker 1: after Dragon Coon. But one of the first questions I

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Speaker 1: would get sometimes from people when I was dressed as

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Speaker 1: the Winter Soldier would be are you Stucky or are

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Speaker 1: you whatever the name is for the Black Widow and

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Speaker 1: Bucky ship, which I can't remember.

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Speaker 2: Yes, really, oh yes, I would have thought more Falcon

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Speaker 2: and Bucky. Well.

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Speaker 1: I think after the show came out, because I remember

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Speaker 1: watching that being like, you guys are really leaning into

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Speaker 1: this sexual tension here, and a lot of people texted

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Speaker 1: me and were like, is this what you're talking about

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Speaker 1: with fan fictional? Like yeah, but I hadn't at that point.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't dressing as the Winter Soldier anymore so much.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just funny to me that people come

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Speaker 1: up and that was what they wanted to know, was

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Speaker 1: who ship?

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Speaker 2: Interesting?

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00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,200
Speaker 1: And okay? Apparently the ship name for Catnus and Peta

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Speaker 1: from the Hunger Games is penis.

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Speaker 2: What do you gotta do?

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Speaker 1: Like that? That's so true?

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Speaker 2: Why that was made up by people who did not

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00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 2: want Peta and Gattus to get together. They wanted was

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Speaker 2: his name. I'm so good at not knowing any characters.

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Speaker 2: I love that I sell like so old and outdated

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Speaker 2: because I can't remember a damn character.

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Speaker 1: The funny thing is, you're so much better than me

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00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,240
Speaker 1: at actors names. I get so much better at character.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember the character. I know the act We

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Speaker 1: were fitting together, though, this is this is.

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Speaker 2: Why we are okay, this is the ship that I

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Speaker 2: just finished Your sentence is the entire time, or that

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Speaker 2: you finished mine.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of I translate for you, you translate for me.

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Speaker 2: It's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they pronounce it penis, but it's

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Speaker 1: pronounced pet and catus, so I feel like it's penis.

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Speaker 1: Somebody right and let me so.

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Speaker 2: The Gillness is the one that made this, Yeah, ship name,

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: I hope that's true. That is very funny. Steve Rogers

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00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,000
Speaker 1: and Tony Stark is Stony. I found this whole like

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Speaker 1: chart of the names and I was laughing so hard

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Speaker 1: it was great. That's pretty good Stony. I mean, come on,

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00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,919
Speaker 1: people do get really excited about the smallest things when

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Speaker 1: they ship something or ship someone, and it'll be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: did you see that, Look you've seen me do this. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they're in love your honor. Oh. People will write essays

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Speaker 1: affording their theory. They write fan fiction, they make fan art,

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Speaker 1: they'll make predictions. They get invested. There are websites dedicated

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Speaker 1: to ships. There are websites dedicated to like anti ships,

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Speaker 1: people you don't want to go together. There are tumbler communities.

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Speaker 1: There are discords. That's one of my favorite tags and

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Speaker 1: fan fiction was whatever ship discord made me do it?

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Speaker 1: So yeah, people are into it. And also, yes, the

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00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,879
Speaker 1: sex and subtext is a big joke, which they hit

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00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:06,399
Speaker 1: they had on Supernatural. They did. Oh, but that's basically

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Speaker 1: implying like you're kind of reading into these the meta

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00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,760
Speaker 1: of the whole thing. In my experience in the fictional

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00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 1: shipping world, not celebrities. People largely ship two men. They're

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Speaker 1: often two white men, and often interviews the celebrities who

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Speaker 1: play these characters. Those interviews are used for evidence too,

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Speaker 1: and they are often asked who they ship. Uh.

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Speaker 2: Well, I did find it interesting that when it's just shipping,

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00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,719
Speaker 2: it means two men automatically instead of just two people

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Speaker 2: instead of and then having to be like fim ship

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Speaker 2: And I was like, oh wait they had.

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Speaker 1: To add that.

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Speaker 2: Well that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Well actually, okay, so got welled. Actually yeah you did,

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Speaker 1: Yeah you did. No, No, you're right, you're right. But

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize this. Once you account for non fan

350
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Speaker 1: fake specific fan spaces, there are a lot more hetero ships.

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Speaker 1: So slash is a very fan fiction name.

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Speaker 2: Left slash not ship.

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Speaker 1: Sorry yeah yeah, yeah, So slash is very from fan fiction,

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Speaker 1: and I we've talked about the history of it before

355
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Speaker 1: and then fem slash comes from that. And I actually

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Speaker 1: read a really fascinating like nineteen ninety three, what were

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Speaker 1: those called bulletin board you know, those like online bulletin

358
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Speaker 1: board spaces. Anyway, it was like a little short thing

359
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 1: where someone was saying. She was making the point that

360
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Speaker 1: people who were so supportive of Slash weren't supportive of

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Speaker 1: them Slash, and it was really fascinating because she was like,

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00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,639
Speaker 1: I can see you only support this one type of

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00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,359
Speaker 1: thing and not this other thing, like that really upsets you,

364
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 1: but this doesn't. It was cool. It was cool.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting. I don't know, Like, again, I'm not part

366
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Speaker 2: of this, but I'm very into the K drama world.

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Speaker 2: And in that same scope, they really love the bl

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Speaker 2: which we've talked about in the K drama episodes or

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Speaker 2: any typically any Asian episodes, which is like the title is,

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Speaker 2: it's not what it sounds like because in the US

371
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 2: we're like, what does that boy love? But essentially like

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Speaker 2: ment two men together, and that's kind of the entire

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00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 2: it's a whole genre, and they there's so much of

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Speaker 2: that way more than there's about two women in which

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00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 2: I thought was odd. But again, the people who are

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Speaker 2: eating up this content are typically women.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yep, yep. You can see our fan fiction

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00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 1: episode for that. I think I also did one on

379
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,880
Speaker 1: specifically on Slash. But there's a lot of theories where

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00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: that is, there's actually like research papers and books about

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Speaker 1: it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Is it carries over just like romances especially.

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Speaker 1: I did find many articles that reported how queer fan

384
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,879
Speaker 1: fiction helps people come out realize they were queer, and

385
00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 1: so this is a big part of like when you

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00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 1: start shipping and you're like, oh, this is queer relationship,

387
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 1: I'm shipping this, and then people will be like, wait

388
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: a minute, let me think about this a bit more.

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00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 1: Which speaking of Yeah, while this term is relatively recent,

390
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 1: it was first used in nineteen ninety three in regards

391
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 1: to exiles fandom, which was my oh maybe I'm queer moment.

392
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 1: People have been doing this forever. I found really fun

393
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: examples from like Jane Austen, like Sherlock Holmes way back

394
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 1: like it's really fascinating. However, the Internet and social media

395
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: really allowed for these ship communities to grow, for people

396
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 1: to find each other, but it also allowed for bad

397
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 1: behavior to be amplified, and it has led to a

398
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 1: lot of Internet abuse and interestingly, in the early days,

399
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 1: shipping was mocked and looked down upon. Sometimes it was

400
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 1: even viewed as you saying, like something that you're all

401
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 1: enjoying is not perfect, heaven forbid, Like you're not a

402
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 1: real fan because you're like wanting more, maybe you're being weird. Uh,

403
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: And people who shipped would get email attacks or harassed.

404
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: But now it's definitely gone mainstream and with that we

405
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 1: have seen a lot of issues and it's just funny

406
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,439
Speaker 1: to me and looking back at this where I'm like,

407
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 1: now it's just you don't ship who I want you

408
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: to ship, get to say, the attacks and the harassment.

409
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: But back then, apparently people who ship forgetting that strange.

410
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 2: Can you come a long way? Baby?

411
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: Yes, yes we have. But that brings us to shipping wars,

412
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 1: which is one of the biggest issues.

413
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: So literal, I'm like, you ups wars.

414
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: We should have had you do like your version of

415
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: what you thought this was this was and compared it.

416
00:23:54,720 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: It would have been great. So wh from teen Vogue

417
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 1: and where they're shipping, there are ship wars aggressive in

418
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 1: community beefs between fandom factions that focus on different ships

419
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: in the same piece of media or fandom. Ship wars

420
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 1: have a rich history of stirring up heightened emotion. Back

421
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: when Buffy the Vampire Slayer dominated online fandom, one of

422
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: the biggest ship wars in fandom history revolved around Buffy's

423
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 1: relationships with two of the hottest and most toxic vampires

424
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 1: this side of the Vampire Diaries extended universe Spike and Angel. Yes,

425
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 1: more on that in a second. Oh my gosh. I

426
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,479
Speaker 1: did see Final Fantasy seven, and I've talked about it

427
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 1: on a hear before, But the whole thing in that

428
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: game was based on decisions you made. You would end

429
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: up with one of like four people, but really two people,

430
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 1: Tifa and Earth, and people would pick sides like, obviously

431
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: he should have gone with Earth, Obviously he should have

432
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: gone with Tifa, and that was kind of programmed into

433
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: the game. That was like, there was this whole thing

434
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: where Eric died spoilers, but that game's really old, and

435
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: it would There was this belief if you were nicer

436
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: to her, if you did all these things, if you

437
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 1: were in a romantic relationship, she would live, which she wouldn't,

438
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: but there was a belief so that she would. So

439
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: people really pick sides. Another big one is Team Edward

440
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: versus Team Jacob from Why Yes And then I totally

441
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: forgot about this, but when I read about it, I

442
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: was like, oh my gosh. Yes, the Harmony Wars the Harmonians.

443
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: People were so pissed Samantha. Oh my gosh, there was

444
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: a whole live journal about killing off Ron Weasley in

445
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 1: as many ways as possible, because essentially this was people

446
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: who thought Harry and Hermione should be together.

447
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 2: Right, I mean people really hated on Jenny. You really

448
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 2: hated Oh, yes, poor actress.

449
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: Yes. So this was before a lot of this was

450
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: happening as people were going online more. Harry Potter is

451
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: still one of the biggest fan communities fan fiction communities

452
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: that exist. And there was this big break between the

453
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: Goblet of Fire and Order of Phoenix and before that,

454
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: like so no one knew who was going to end

455
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: up with whom, but people had all this time to speculate.

456
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: So there was the Harmonians the I think it was

457
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 1: called the USS Harmoniums, so it was like a ship anyway,

458
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: So they were like really adamant that this was how

459
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: it was going to go. And then JK. Rowling said

460
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: in an interview, Oh, no, it's definitely not that, And

461
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: one of the interviewers said Harmonians were delusional and there's

462
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: kind of laughter and all the stuff. JK. Rolling backtracked

463
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: about it. She didn't attach herself to the word delusional,

464
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: but was also kind of like, yeah, but she did

465
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: say she thought she had dropped these huge hints and

466
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: that it was obvious who was going to end up

467
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: with whom. From Claire McBride over at Sci Fi Wire,

468
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: but even early on, the tension between these two factions

469
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: ran hot. Sugar Quill, one of the first Harry Potter

470
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: specific Fick archives, refused to accept Harry Hermione fan fiction

471
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: on the grounds that it was not canon compliant. Interestingly,

472
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: they accepted remiss Serious Fick as canon compliant because you

473
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: know it was, which may have contributed to the opening

474
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 1: of Fiction Alley, which pointedly accepted all ships. Ship specific

475
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: fan sites and communities became the norm, allowing the factions

476
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: to more or less peaceably coexist, although the occasional battles

477
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: still happened up until this point, they trusted that they

478
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: were correctly reading Rolling's larger plan and that they were

479
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: the only ones doing so. They were heavily invested in

480
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: not only the veracity of their ship, but the morality

481
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: of it, valuing a relationship built on friendship over what

482
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: they saw as a relationship built on conflicts, among many

483
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: other values they assigned to their ship because they'd invested

484
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: so heavily in this one ship, to the detriment of

485
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: making wider connections in fandom and developing a diverse interest

486
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: in the series. Rolling's revelation threatened to invalidate not only

487
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: their ship but their fandom, so they turned their ire

488
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: on her. Harmonians began to openly insult Rolling, calling into

489
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: question her talent as a writer, denigrating her for being divorced,

490
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: and even insulting her personal appearance. One post even indulges

491
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: in some pearl clutching, wondering if the moral of ron

492
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: slash Hermione is really one she wants to pass down

493
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: to her daughters. This ship meant more to them than

494
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: the fandom did. This is the moment that birth's zero

495
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: sum shipping, a kind of blind game in ship that

496
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: only values as ship for whether or not it wins,

497
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: not whether or not it is enjoyable. And of no, oh,

498
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: this was pre Twitter, so this could have been a

499
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: lot worse. The battle. Yeah, but it was funny because

500
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: my mom had an opinion on this. She obviously wasn't

501
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: like dude naos, but she thought it should have been

502
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: her in her minding. And I remember being like, oh,

503
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: I don't.

504
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: Know if I ever had an opinion on it, but

505
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: it was like, yeah, it doesn't make as much sense,

506
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: but I get it. Like the side characters, he has

507
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: his own trauma he doesn't really need. I think that

508
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: was part like he doesn't need a romance right now,

509
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: he's got too much on his plate.

510
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my mom was very it was

511
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: she was very blessed about it, but it was just

512
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: funny because like normally she wouldn't even care have a

513
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: thought about it, but she did say that. I was like,

514
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: oh yeah, but that kind of that morality that that

515
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: writer mentioned is a key point of this, because there's

516
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: this whole idea of like, my ship is better than yours.

517
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: Ye right, Because as I said, chips are not new.

518
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: They've been around since we've been telling stories and could

519
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: have opinions, but they have evolved. It used to be

520
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: and still is largely I would say, a fun thing.

521
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: There are plenty, plenty the majority of people who can

522
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: ship without being absolutely awful, but it's gotten way more

523
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: intense as where we are all online and now when

524
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: someone believes they found the OTP, the one true pairing,

525
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: they think they are right, you are wrong, and it

526
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: gets heated and outright hateful. Jamie described it as almost

527
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: a religion. A part of this is that you've interpreted

528
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: the media in question correctly, that there is just one

529
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: right way, one correct pairing, and if that's not, if

530
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: they don't agree with someone, then they will shame people,

531
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: harass people, shun people, docs people to swap people, even

532
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: threatened creators.

533
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: How old are the rain for people who like are

534
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: active on those kind of boards.

535
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it depends on the specific site,

536
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: because I know we've talked about this before. If fan

537
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: fiction is like my forte so that's what I know

538
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: off the my head, But like wapad is for younger folks,

539
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: there's another one that more younger people use, And then

540
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: AO three and fanfic dot Net are like older folks.

541
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: And by that I mean I don't know, like my age.

542
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: Like what's the older mean?

543
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: I mean it could go it's I think they're much

544
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: more like I would say twenty five to forty. Okay,

545
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: I think there's more outliers on that than there are wapad.

546
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, which I feel is much younger, right.

547
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 2: I just wondered, because you know, a that's a lot

548
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: of time and effort to go after and debate with people.

549
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: I don't know as people do that, like does it

550
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: for any all subjects, But I find interesting for fictional

551
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: characters that level of love and passion, like you have

552
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: to have some time and dedication for that.

553
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: That's kind of part of the issue. It doesn't have

554
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: to be an issue, but part of it is if

555
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: it becomes like a consumed right all of your time

556
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: and someone's telling you in your mind you're wrong, but

557
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: you've spent all this time on it. You was like,

558
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: looked for all the clues, You've done all of this

559
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: digging and research, and so it's like you don't get it.

560
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen you watch Star Wars and you're

561
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: telling me your theories and me just going really and

562
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: you go, wait no, but this evidence.

563
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: Well see. The funny thing is I'm a multi shipper,

564
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: which is yes, I have a lot of ships, and

565
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: so I can be like I can take evidence and

566
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: make my case for one couple, and then that same

567
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: evidence I'll be like, disregard this couple though, which I

568
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: think is a good way to me.

569
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,719
Speaker 2: So many times I heard do you see that stayre

570
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: do you see that look don't know. No, you can't

571
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: tell me.

572
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: People have written it about that. Look data won't look

573
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: it is. I'm not kidding people know.

574
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: I'm sure I can. I can picture. I picture it

575
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 2: the moment you say it. I know what scene I'm

576
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: talking about because you've done it every time. Yep, every time.

577
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

578
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: The dedication to that, I'm like, oh yeah, that's.

579
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: A look, it's a lot, but that's what it is.

580
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: And that's like the fun part of it. Like when

581
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: you can just be like yeah, and then you don't

582
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: mind if someone does it agree with you.

583
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: There was no disagreement. I'm just the nod. You get

584
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: the nod from me like oh okay, yeah, yeah.

585
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: No, don't derail me because now I just want to

586
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: talk to that.

587
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,479
Speaker 2: I have look that you're having it, like contemplating do

588
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: I go down this road.

589
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: I've had more than one friend say I didn't see

590
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: it before, but now it's you. That's right. Okay. But

591
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: speaking of from that same article from sci Fi, what

592
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: was once the love of two characters dynamic has become

593
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: to a small but outspoken subsection of fans, a zero

594
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: sum game. How did we get from God, I love

595
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: seeing these two together to these two need to be together,

596
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: So help me God. And this quote is going back

597
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: to that teen Vogue article, which I really recommend. I've

598
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: been a part of several ship wars, never an active

599
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: participant really, just a member of ships that are fought over,

600
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: and I think it all comes down to wanting to

601
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: feel right. Fandom, especially fanfic, is all about participating in

602
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: and taking ownership of the material. Colleen, a pop culture

603
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: nerd and scholar who made it through the Vultron fandom,

604
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: shares with teen Vogue. Ship war are caused by people

605
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: wanting their ship to be the number one correct ship,

606
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 1: the only one, and even if it's not canon, it's

607
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 1: the one. So you see things like Katong versus Zutara,

608
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: where on the one hand you have people arguing their

609
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: ship is better because it's canon and it's sweet, and

610
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: on the other hand arguing for tension and character development.

611
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: In that case, it's a matter of preference and power.

612
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: Each ship slash fandom wants to be in charge. Yes,

613
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting because we are going to

614
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: discuss this more. But that whole like, you go to

615
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: fan fiction because you can't find relationship you want in

616
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: canon or maybe they don't do it, and then what

617
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: happens when it does become canon. But essentially what most

618
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: of what I read is it comes down to this

619
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 1: is the quote unquote healthier relationship versus the quote unquote

620
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 1: unhealthier relationship, which is a for uh, you know, debate.

621
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 1: But yes, creators and celebrities get this abuse to even

622
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 1: extending to real life relationships of celebrities. That's something we've

623
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: talked about before. Some creators have been blackmailed in an

624
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: attempt to force a ship and make it cannon. Some

625
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 1: have been forced off social media, and it gets nasty,

626
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: like people will tear people up who support the opposing ship.

627
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: They will claim that there's is the least problematic ship,

628
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: while pointing out the problematic parts of the opposing ships

629
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: and people who ship them like it becomes like, well,

630
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 1: if you like this ship, then that means you're messed

631
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: up in this way, you're appear to and slash goody

632
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: two shoes, or you're actually a criminal. Then there is

633
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: the hate that is heaped onto the characters. As you

634
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: mentioned with Jenny Weasley, perhaps yeah, usually the cannon ship

635
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: often a woman who ruined your ship, and the person

636
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 1: who created them or played them, people who who did

637
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: ship with these toxic fans. So if you're like shipping

638
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: a ship and then all these toxic fans come in,

639
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: sometimes you get forced out of that ship because you're like, well, right,

640
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 1: you ruined it. Sometimes the creators make it worse with

641
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: their comments making fun of a ship or being queer baby.

642
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: Often they have no idea how much fandom is behind

643
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: a ship. I would say not always, but I feel

644
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: like a lot of the examples I wrote, I was like,

645
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: why did you say that? Which is a point to

646
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: an interesting disconnect between creators and their fans. MCU story

647
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: editor Matthew Schancey, who's responsible for the what if Zombie episode,

648
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: which is that like marvel Kind Alternate Realities animated series,

649
00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: reportedly wanted Zombie Captain America to bite off Sharon's lips

650
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: and spit them out because quote, no one likes her.

651
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: Actually he belongs to Peggy, which he might have been

652
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: joking and maybe not, but it does fuel these fights

653
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: in this hate. Perhaps he did it intentionally, Perhaps he

654
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: did it, I don't know.

655
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: My only problem with that whole storyline was, wait, couldn't

656
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: he beat her grandfather?

657
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: Now?

658
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: A great uncle now or something. This whole timeline thing.

659
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 2: I'm like, this doesn't this doesn't bode well.

660
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 1: I would say, I don't think the MCU has done

661
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: a romance very well. Yes, I know some people disagree

662
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: with me, but I don't think so.

663
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of a good wood.

664
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would say like WandaVision,

665
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: but I actually don't think so.

666
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: They worked together and then she fell alone with a

667
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 2: make belief thing.

668
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And that was my biggest hang up of

669
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: that show was is I was like, I just don't

670
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: buy your relationship because you just suddenly told me you

671
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: were dating and then he died.

672
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 2: And it's also forced anyway from the Yeah, maybe I'm

673
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 2: not gonna get hay for that.

674
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: It did, it did, but almost all the relationships in

675
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: the MCU felt very forced. Yeah, but anyway, anyway, we're

676
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 1: gonna get there right. There are even conspiracy theories that

677
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: for one reason or another something is cannon, but the

678
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: creators cannot admit it like it is canon. They just

679
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: can't say it's cannon. A lot and this used to

680
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,479
Speaker 1: be a big thing in fan fiction, which is kind

681
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: of a lot of people brought up has kind of

682
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: gone by the wayside. But it used to be like, oh,

683
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: there was a certain tag for it, but it was like,

684
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: you know, uh, we were playing in our sam box.

685
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: Whatever they do, that's the thing that we're playing in

686
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: our sandbox. Whereas now it's become it's crossed the line

687
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: into oh, let's yell at them online. But it used

688
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: to be much more like, Nope, that's that's the powers

689
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: that be. That's what it was. The powers that be.

690
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: You you, that's what they've decided and that's how it is.

691
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: But I'm going to play in this sandbox. But now

692
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: it's become like it has to be can and which

693
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 1: is part of this issue. Also, yes, we have talked

694
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: about celebrity shipping, which is essentially, yeah, you're just two

695
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: real people are more than to real people. Again, but

696
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: that usually like the unhealthy side of that is definitely

697
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: that it has real world impacts. That impacts usually like

698
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,479
Speaker 1: the celebrities new partner again is often a woman, and

699
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: this has resulted in people being forced off social media,

700
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: celebrities having tor reulease statements asking for people essentially not

701
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 1: harassed their partner or their ex like post about mental

702
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: health and all this, so that's definitely definitely an is sha.

703
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: And then, as Jamie said in the original suggestion for this,

704
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: there are some ships that are truly problematic. And from

705
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: what I've read, as mentioned, a lot of shipboards do

706
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: boil down to should person a who is torn between

707
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: two people go with the bad boy type or the

708
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: good guide type. And this is not It doesn't mean

709
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 1: that the good guys without problems. But I found out

710
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: this is known as cinemon rule ships versus trash ships,

711
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh.

712
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: Yes, trash ships.

713
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: Huh trash ships. So from here's a quote about that

714
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: from Vox. For instance, a ship like Kaylux Kylo Brinn

715
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: and the minor character Hucks and the Force Awakens might

716
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 1: be labeled a trash ship because it's seen as a

717
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 1: re presentation of fandom's heavily white status quo your average

718
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: ubiquitous white dude slash pairing, and a ship like Ika

719
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: Body That's fun name too, Nikobod Crane slash Abbey Mills

720
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: on Sleepy Hollow might be seen as a Simon roll ship,

721
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: both because of the puereness of their love and because

722
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: one of its members is a woman of color. Again,

723
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 1: this is this being fandom, These issues are very layered,

724
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: controversial and complicated. So essentially, a shrash ship is like

725
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: a ship you ship even though you know it's bad,

726
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: you know it's problematic, you know it's toxic.

727
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:38,439
Speaker 2: So would would this be the Buffy and Yes what's

728
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 2: his name?

729
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 3: Oh?

730
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 1: Yes, Buffy and Spike. Yes, yes, I'm gonna talk about

731
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: that more in a second of so excited you bought that? Yes? Yes,

732
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: I did see some recent articles about multi shippers who

733
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 1: ship toxic, problematic ships and healthy, wholesome ones, and they

734
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: were saying, like, it's not mutually exclusive. Sometimes you're all happen.

735
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: Sometimes it just happens. It really does. I should people

736
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: have like, how did this happen? I never would have guessed.

737
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: But there are also shippers for abusive relationships, for non

738
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: consensual slash manipulaity of controlling relationships, underage relationships with massive

739
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: age differences, incest, which is kind of complicated in terms

740
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 1: of fanfic because oh yeah, I don't really I don't

741
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: read it, but I think a lot of times there's

742
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: an understanding that we all know they aren't actually related.

743
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: Plus things like Game of Thrones, like I don't.

744
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 2: Know, because that's the thing about super naturals, the brothers.

745
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 2: What are you doing.

746
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: Wincest yep Oh, one day, I'll come back to that,

747
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,919
Speaker 1: And I'll also come back to ABO, which I've talked

748
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 1: about before. We talked about it in our dob com

749
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: episode Best Answer for Alpha Beta Omega. And it's kind

750
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: of like a secondary gender political biological type of writing

751
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: and relationship and those are often very toxic, but they

752
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: also are interesting in how they explore gender politics. I

753
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: have a lot of thoughts about that as well, but

754
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: we won't go into them now because that would be

755
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: a whole episode. But there's a lot of shipping in

756
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: that realm that's pretty pretty problematic. Yeah, and then, as

757
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, wrongshipping.

758
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 2: I'm just laughing about so many things right now.

759
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 1: Yes, So back to that fan lore wiki article. When

760
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: a fanship's two characters who really shouldn't be together, they

761
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: are wrong shipping. Wrong shipping isn't a judgment about a

762
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: fan of shipping preferences, but the recognition that the characters

763
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: in question would be a hot mess together. Wrong shipping

764
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: can also be used when the fan is in support

765
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: of a pairing other than the cannon o TP. So

766
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: this is sort of like, yeah, they won't gotcha.

767
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,879
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna assume from now on, I'm on, I'm

768
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 2: not on this, which I assume from the beginning, which

769
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 2: you were like you got some parts, I was like, why.

770
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: Well, I put a minute in it.

771
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 2: I was just like, well, because I like me saying

772
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 2: that would be so out of context. I have no

773
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 2: idea why I'm saying this. I got it, So I'm

774
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: just I'm just gonna go with that. So I'm like, yeah,

775
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 2: I have no idea what that just happened.

776
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: That's that's what it's like when you get in the

777
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: world of shipping, some man, you get lost lost in

778
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: the shipping. And then related that at the top, I

779
00:45:52,680 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: mentioned like antis, non romos, no romos. Actually this is

780
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: sort of different because there's a difference between people who

781
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: don't want any ship, like maybe they just don't want romance,

782
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: versus people who actively don't want a certain ship and

783
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: they have gotten in on this toxicity too. And I

784
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: found this quote from geek Dad. The most aggressive of

785
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: the bunch is a new subset of shippers collectively known

786
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: as antis from the practice oft tacking things anti ship

787
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 1: name on social media. It's a term these toxic members

788
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: of fandom. We're proudly Despite its association with combative behavior,

789
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: ANTIS appear to be a response to, among other factors,

790
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 1: changes in how fans interact online. As fans move from

791
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: sites like live journal, where content was opt in, to Tumblr,

792
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: where content is opped out, the method in which fans

793
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: consumed content changed. Thanks to ANTIS. The old adage of

794
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: early fandom don't like, don't read yep or the idea

795
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: that consumers are response for avoiding content they don't like,

796
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 1: has been replaced with discourse, death threats, and violence. Discussions

797
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: shifted from I don't like this too, no one should

798
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: like this. This often involves moral arguments. It's sort of

799
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: devolved into I can morally prove you're a terrible person

800
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 1: for this ship to destroy it. I thought that was

801
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: so interesting because we've talked before. I love the history

802
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: of how those technologies impact right our discourse, and in

803
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 1: this case, I didn't know that that's really cool. I

804
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 1: mean not cool, but like I'm glad to know it.

805
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: You can on a three you can be like I

806
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: don't want this shift to show up, but it doesn't

807
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: like populate like how Tumblr it would be like you

808
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: find all of this stuff that's like I hate this ship.

809
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: It's more like than that ship just won't show up. Yeah,

810
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,240
Speaker 1: the quote goes on. Anti arguments may shift every time,

811
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 1: but the critical thing to note is one competing popular

812
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: pairings pairings that share characters with the anti favored pairing

813
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: are always problematic, and two, the anti preferred pairing is

814
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: never problematic. If you take nothing else from this article,

815
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: please take this all. This outrage isn't about protecting children,

816
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: or about morality or about critiquing media. It's about people

817
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: wanting their favorite characters to kiss. It's true. It's so

818
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: true though because it is, it gets real nasty the

819
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: things people will say about like why your ship is awful?

820
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: But really it does come down to probably just one

821
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: of these these people kids.

822
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 2: It kind of reminds me of the thirty Rock episode

823
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 2: in which the daughter of the owner of the company

824
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 2: it just really likes soap operas and she's because the ship.

825
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 2: There was a whole ship with Tina's face character and

826
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 2: Alec Baldwo's character. Again, I don't remember the character's names,

827
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 2: any of their characters, and then and then so like

828
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 2: they played I'm going kiss, Kiss kiss and they're like, Nope,

829
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 2: you can't do this because I chatted it. But like,

830
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 2: we know, there actually was a shipping for the two

831
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: of them to be together for a while.

832
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 1: Which is a yeah, well it's funny. One of the

833
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: stories I'm reading right now, the author left a you

834
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: can read the notes at the ends, and they just

835
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: wrote make like smashing their faces together like two barbies,

836
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: and I was like, I mean, essentially, the quote continues.

837
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: Despite all of this negativity, I believe fandom is an

838
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: incredibly positive thing. I'm gay and the first time I

839
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: ever saw a gay character and a story was in

840
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: fan fiction. Fan Fiction gave me stories about people like

841
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: me when I couldn't find them anywhere else. That is

842
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: the power of transformative media like fanfic and fan art.

843
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: In a world where so many people don't get to

844
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: see themselves on TV, fandom can offer them a place

845
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: where they can be the hero of the story they

846
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: know and love. Fandom enables anyone to create with an

847
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: established world. It enables writers to create stories that go

848
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: beyond the canon media, and gives artists the power to

849
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: explore new scenes and what ifs. There are thousands of

850
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: people right now creating this content for free simply because

851
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 1: they enjoy it. And I do think that's I always

852
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: try to make this point because there's critiquing media is healthy.

853
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: We all like problematic things, but there's a way to

854
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 1: do that healthily. There's a way to do that without

855
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: threatening people or yelling at people, harassing people. And it's

856
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: funny to me the ways technology like this all started

857
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:49,280
Speaker 1: as sort of an attempt to better control content searches

858
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 1: on Tumblr. So when they were like, you can put

859
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 1: in this anti whatever tag it was, they were trying

860
00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: to clamp down on like bad behavior honestly, then it

861
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: led to this. So that's just interesting to me. And

862
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: also back to what you were saying, when it becomes

863
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 1: a part of your identity and then that it becomes

864
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:22,399
Speaker 1: so personal and it just you can't see anything else

865
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 1: like this is it has to be this way because

866
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: so important to me. Another thing that Jamie brought up

867
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: was this sort of forcing of romance or this prioritizing

868
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: of romance. And I talked about this recently because yes,

869
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: I have been posting fan fiction and never but there

870
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: is this I found myself writing romance and I actually

871
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: it's like released romance which I think makes sense. It's

872
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 1: much more like holding hands type of romance and anything else.

873
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: But but I did get in my head about like

874
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: it just feels so much of what I read that romance,

875
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: romantic love is seen as more powerful love, like the

876
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: most powerful love, as compared to friendship. And so it

877
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 1: can be strange when you're reading all this stuff like that,

878
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: you're writing stuff like that, and you're asexual, you know,

879
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: Like I have found, especially within the past couple of years,

880
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 1: a lot more depictions of asexual characters and even asexual

881
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: romances where you know, they have the talk and they're like, yeah,

882
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: I just like kissing but nothing more, and they're like, okay, cool.

883
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: And I have seen more non sexual relationships, but a

884
00:52:57,960 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 1: lot of times that's what it is, like a good

885
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: amount of times, like maybe not the whole thing, but

886
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: it's in there somewhere. And as we've discussed before, there's

887
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: also that strange tight rope of for so long women

888
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: have been shamed for wanting sex, and so I'm like,

889
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: embrace it, embrace it, but also at the same time,

890
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be that for everybody. So it's

891
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: sort of strange there. And I've also been thinking about

892
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: this too, of this understanding that everyone sees romance the

893
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 1: same way or they must all want it, which isn't true.

894
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: And I think that comes up a lot of times

895
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: in shipping wars, because if you're finding like your evidence,

896
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,320
Speaker 1: not everybody sees that evidence the same way, you know

897
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like even if like you don't agree, right,

898
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: but like some people might see something as romantic and

899
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: other people might see it's like not romantic at all. Yeah,

900
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: So there's that difference too. And I do think this

901
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: is tricky because I've heard before this argument why can't

902
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: they just be friends, especially between two men who have

903
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 1: just a close relationship, Why does it have to be romantic?

904
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 1: And I think that it speaks to a couple of things.

905
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 1: The fact that we put men in a box where

906
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: they can't be emotionally vulnerable with other men are physically affectionate,

907
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,720
Speaker 1: so that's like, look at how they're being so emotionally vulnerable,

908
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: they must be in love. And the fact that women

909
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 1: are always through romantic interest in so much of media,

910
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: And the fact that we don't have enough queer storylines

911
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: in mainstream media, especially front center. So it's sort of like,

912
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: as we say so often we just need more representative,

913
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 1: diverse stories, so we're not always like it's so desperate

914
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: for this queer story, though, can't it be them? But

915
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 1: also have platonic relationships. And then there's been arguments about

916
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 1: fetishizing homosexuality in that way too, which is certainly certainly

917
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 1: a part of it. This is sort of a separate issue,

918
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: but I wanted to mention it. When the media reports

919
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: on this, especially fan fiction, they find the most bizarre

920
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 1: fan fiction. I'm almost always like, I think you might

921
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: actually read fan fiction because you have plumbed the depths,

922
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: you've found something, You've found something. And I read a

923
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: lot and I have never seen this and either make

924
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: fun of it for celebrities to read it, or frame

925
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: it as this depravity of young girls and make an

926
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 1: argument about why we need to censor things. So that

927
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: a lot of times with shipping wars and gets in

928
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: the news and they're reading fan fiction and it's like

929
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: the wildest thing I've ever heard, and I've read some stuff.

930
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 1: Oh and this was about a specific incident where it

931
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: was at a convention and a fan that is a

932
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 1: supernatural convention. I think a fan got up to ask

933
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: about I don't know, but everyone thought they were going

934
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: to ask about shipping. No, it wasn't that. They later

935
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: found this fan and it wasn't that, But that's what

936
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: everyone thought, and they got removed by security.

937
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 2: Even before they could ask the question. Wow.

938
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: Yes, And so here's the quote from hyperbole about that.

939
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: What is so horrible about slash shipping and asking the

940
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: actors about it? Why should asking Aqules about whether Dean

941
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 1: might possibly have feelings for Castiel be more taboo than

942
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 1: asking him about Dean slash Lisa, whether he thinks Dean

943
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: should die at the end of the series, or what

944
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 1: his favorite moment filming season eight was. For those who

945
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: claim that they've been asked about slash shipping a million

946
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: times and that it just makes everyone uncomfortable, this might

947
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 1: be the case, sure, but these guys do like twenty

948
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,280
Speaker 1: conventions a year. Do you really think that there's one

949
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: single question which you could pop sssibly asked them which

950
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,240
Speaker 1: they haven't had to answer at least a dozen times before.

951
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 1: The difference seems to be that some fans believe it

952
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 1: is harassment to force the actors to confront the possibility

953
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,760
Speaker 1: that their characters might be homosexual. So singling out slash

954
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: shipping or shipping in general, when there is so much

955
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: more that might be awkward for the actors to be

956
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: confronted with. That is problematic whether you're an actor, a creator,

957
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: or a fan. I have to question the logic that

958
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: slash shipping is cool as long as we don't talk

959
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: about it, don't ask, don't tell really fandom, which was

960
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 1: a good point. I do hate going to these like

961
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: Q and A things because it's always like, what are

962
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: they going to ask? But it's true they've heard these

963
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: questions like a million times, all of them haven't. It's

964
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: not like an original question. I went and saw one

965
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: actor once and he just was like, I'm not going

966
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: to do the Q and A because I hear the

967
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: same questions all the time. And he just went down

968
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: a list of questions and answer. I was like, yeah,

969
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: probably you would know. Yeah. And then from Vox, here's

970
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: a quote conflating ships that involve underrepresentative identities with the

971
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: desire for inclusion. Gets especially dicey when it leads fans

972
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: to prioritize support for their ship over other intersexual concerns.

973
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 1: For example, and teen Will fandom fans of the Steric

974
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 1: ship Derek slash styles have frequently accused the show of

975
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: queer baiting or exploiting their specific queer male pairing without

976
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: any intention of following through on it, even though the

977
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 1: show's creator, Jeff Davis, is a gay man who has

978
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: already inserted several queer relationships in the show storylines, and

979
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: even though Steric as it currently exists in canon is

980
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: a physically abusive relationship. The prioritization of a ship at

981
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: the expense of another intersectionality concerns is also present on

982
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 1: The one hundred, which earlier this year featured a queer

983
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: canonical relationship between main character Clark and the warrior queen

984
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: Lexa aka Klexa. Klexa fans have been so focused on

985
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: advocating for Klexa, even after the ship effectively ended with

986
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: Lexus on time death, that they've come under fire for

987
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 1: ignoring the many elements of the show that some feels

988
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: are racist and problematic. M Yeah, I think that's a

989
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: that's a really good point as well, because when you

990
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: when you're just attacking people who don't like your ship

991
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: and you're not thinking of anything else, it's not a

992
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: good look. It's not a good look. Yeah. Yeah, as

993
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: sort of wrap up here, I did mention I was

994
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: gonna say my thoughts. So I I do ship, even

995
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: though I am an ace ace person, but a lot

996
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 1: of times I ship. I found a really fun article

997
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: about the fun of shipping No One, someone who's never

998
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 1: gonna end up together. It's kind of nice. You're kind

999
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 1: of like you find your little niche pandom of all

1000
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: of your your like online friends we will never meet

1001
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: or talk to, but you're kind of like we're the

1002
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: ones that, like the ship that we know is never

1003
00:59:57,840 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: going to be cannon. We never once thought it would be.

1004
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: It's just no chance of it. And I think there

1005
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 1: has been a couple of things I've shipped where people

1006
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 1: have gotten upset and they're like, I can't believe I

1007
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 1: thought they would end up together. And sometimes I'm honestly

1008
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 1: so surprised. I'm like, you really, I never actually thought

1009
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 1: this was gonna happen, but you did. Eh, And I

1010
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: get I feel bad. It does suck when you're like, oh,

1011
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: that didn't go how I wanted it to go. But also,

1012
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 1: as we've been talking about, sometimes fans do regret when

1013
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: their ship happens, like with Buffy and Spike and you know,

1014
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 1: like a tempted rape that happened in their relationship. And

1015
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 1: sometimes the ship happens and they break up or they're

1016
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 1: killed off. Like it's not like if your ship does

1017
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 1: become cannon, everything's going to be the best thing and

1018
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: the happiest thing. And I think, like going back to

1019
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: like not trusting the creators. I just have been hurt

1020
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 1: so hard. It's not that I don't trust them, but

1021
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeo, I'm gonna be much happier if i

1022
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 1: just do this in my own world and does it

1023
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 1: become right. I don't need your drama and your studios influencingness.

1024
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 1: I just will go over here and be let me.

1025
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's not about that either. It's about what

1026
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: fans believe they should have gotten. Canon romances are often

1027
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: looked down upon, and there are people who feel like

1028
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: me and maybe want a ship to happen, but ultimately

1029
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 1: don't want that entertainment in question to really change. So

1030
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 1: like you don't want it to become a rom com suddenly,

1031
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: but you kind of don't want the relationship to happen,

1032
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 1: but you have fun imagining it and sharing it with others,

1033
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 1: and yes, it can be lonely to ship someone barely

1034
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: anyone else does, but it can be very fun. Can

1035
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: be very fun. Here's another quote for teen Vogue. Shipping

1036
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 1: oriented fandom is all about transformation. For many shippers. The

1037
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 1: pairings we put together in fandom are that come together

1038
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: in a series or on a gossip site are the

1039
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 1: first time many of us get to see ourselves and

1040
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: relationships that echo the ones we have. Whether it's a

1041
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: queer ships as a gateway to understanding your own identity,

1042
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 1: or fans of color or highlighting ships that center characters

1043
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 1: of color. The goal of shipping has been to fill

1044
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 1: gaps and provide room for fans to play with emotional

1045
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: connections from box. For fans feeling fatigue over an imbattle

1046
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: struggle to make a ship cannon, and the crushing disappointment

1047
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 1: of setbacks or failure, it might help to remember that

1048
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 1: ships don't have to be cannon in order to be

1049
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: transformative and meaningful on both a personal and cultural level.

1050
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: Look at Star Trek's Kirk slash Spock Sperk. That ship

1051
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 1: never became canon, but it remains one of the most

1052
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 1: compelling ships ever created, and within cannon, it gave us

1053
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 1: one of pop culture's most enduring symbols of love, there

1054
01:02:56,520 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: are hands touching through the glass. Henry Jenkin's famously said

1055
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 1: that queer fan fiction is what happens when you take

1056
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: away the glass. And sure, it's increasingly possible that savvy

1057
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: creators might go ahead and take away the glass for us,

1058
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 1: but that doesn't negate the power of fans being able

1059
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 1: to do it on their own without anyone's help. I

1060
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 1: love that. It's so funny, it's so true. That's it.

1061
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: Do you look for the clues their hands touching to

1062
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: the glass, and then you take away the glass?

1063
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 2: Oh, I feel like you having a moment here.

1064
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: I am, I am. And then to close out, I

1065
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: have this thing I found from more Stand on Tumblr.

1066
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: And this is a while back. I found like all

1067
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 1: of this old archive like Fanish stuff, like nineteen ninety three.

1068
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 1: I was researching this. Very cool. I don't know when

1069
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: it happened, but somewhere along the way, shipping got a

1070
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,960
Speaker 1: new meaning for younger folk that seems to translate to

1071
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: I want these people together for real asap. I think

1072
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: the media had something to do with it, guys. Shipping

1073
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: absolutely does not mean demanding anything from people slash creators.

1074
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: Shipping isn't about expecting and waiting for the day it

1075
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: will certainly happen. It is not a direct translation to

1076
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 1: happen or die. Shipping means you like the idea of

1077
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: two or more people together. You like the concepts, You

1078
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:19,680
Speaker 1: find it fun to imagine the dynamics, You even create

1079
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 1: fan and content of it, thick art edits. It's all

1080
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 1: on your head and it's fine that way. Is it

1081
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: nice to have a ship become cannon? Oh my god, Yes,

1082
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 1: but that's not what shipping is about. And y'all need

1083
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:33,240
Speaker 1: to take a step back and breathe, because being a

1084
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: jerk to people ain't gonna change their mind about ships. Yep, yeah,

1085
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 1: but yeah, I just want to say, two people, and

1086
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 1: you know who you are, uh, who've watched good omens

1087
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: and you're happy. I'm happy for you. Vague I told

1088
01:04:55,040 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 1: you I didn't spoilet, But okay, yes, I mean, like

1089
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 1: all things we talk about, there's obviously really bad behavior,

1090
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: but there's really good behavior too, and a lot of

1091
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 1: it is that and it can be so fun and

1092
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 1: so beautiful and I love that too. Of like the

1093
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 1: idea just because it doesn't become canon doesn't mean it

1094
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: can't be transformative. So yes, our shipping episode.

1095
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 2: Like towards and you just went going faster and faster

1096
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 2: trying to make it.

1097
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I also will say I wrote an essay

1098
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 1: about this for Jamie that you can find about my

1099
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 1: thoughts about shipping. But that's what I have to say

1100
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 1: for now. So thank you Jamie for this suggestion. And yeah,

1101
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 1: if you would like to contact us, if you have

1102
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 1: any thoughts about this, I'm sure that you do. You

1103
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 1: can email us stephanium Mom Stuff at ihartmedia dot com.

1104
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most up podcast,

1105
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff One Never told you.

1106
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 1: We have a tea public store. We also have a

1107
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:10,479
Speaker 1: book that you can order. It is available at stuff

1108
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 1: you should read books dot com. Thanks as always to

1109
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 1: your super producer Christina or executive producer Maya and our

1110
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 1: contributor Joey.

1111
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 2: I was gonna say talking about shit, but it wasn't

1112
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 2: gonna be right, So thank you.

1113
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: And thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told

1114
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 1: Me his production of by Heart Radio. For more podcasts

1115
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio, you can check out the art

1116
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 1: radio app Apple Podcasts or regulus to your favorite shows,