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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I wanted to kind of jump into

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Speaker 1: this story just a tiny bit because I want to

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Speaker 1: get your input on something. The story that I have

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Speaker 1: for you is from nineteen fifty nine in New York,

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Speaker 1: in Albany County, and some of the information that we

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Speaker 1: got comes from a podcast called Upstate Unsolved. And you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes we'll have I'll interview podcasters other podcasters about what

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Speaker 1: they do in their shows, and we have certainly used

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Speaker 1: other podcasts as sources. And I teach a true crime

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Speaker 1: podcast course at the University of Texas, which is very popular.

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Speaker 1: I always have a couple hundred students every semester, and

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Speaker 1: we talk about the good things about true crime podcasts

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Speaker 1: and the bad things the you know, making sure that

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Speaker 1: we don't retraumatize survivors, and hallmarks for good journalism, good reporting,

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Speaker 1: respecting the victim, that kind of thing. So from a

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Speaker 1: forensic investigator standpoint, we've talked about this before. I think,

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Speaker 1: how do you know who to trust as a journalistic source,

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Speaker 1: like a podcast or a Michelle McNamara. I think we've

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Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit. Do you just get

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Speaker 1: a gut instinct about people, Well.

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Speaker 2: That's you know, that's most early part of it, but

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Speaker 2: it's also just the interactions and talking to somebody, how

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Speaker 2: the questions proceed. With Michelle, I could tell that she

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Speaker 2: had a deep understanding of the Golden State killer case,

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Speaker 2: much more so than what I was expecting when I

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Speaker 2: first started interacting with her. What she understood about the

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Speaker 2: case was factual. It wasn't like she had just been

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Speaker 2: reading reddit boards and online sources. You know, She's definitely

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Speaker 2: had had some facts. So that gave me some comfort,

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Speaker 2: but also just the way that she went about interacting

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Speaker 2: with me and needing to substantiate the information. And too

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Speaker 2: often there's been others that I've interacted with that, for

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Speaker 2: lack of a better way to put it, tend to

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Speaker 2: gravitate towards more of the conspiracy stuff, you know, that's

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Speaker 2: out there, and then that's when I start getting concerned.

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Speaker 2: But fundamentally, the way you're teaching your class about, you know,

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Speaker 2: good journalism being sensitive to the victims. And I know

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Speaker 2: what I like to try to bring to the table

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Speaker 2: is authenticity. You know, even though I'm in the true

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Speaker 2: crime genre now I come out of real crime. That's

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Speaker 2: something I just keep saying over and over again, and

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Speaker 2: I just want to be able to pass on to

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Speaker 2: the listeners, you know, this is the aspects of real

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Speaker 2: crime that sometimes you don't get while consuming true crime content,

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Speaker 2: you know, And that's that's always been my goal.

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Speaker 1: We definitely talk about respecting the victim. We also talk about,

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Speaker 1: you know, bringing attention to underrepresented people. We talk about

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Speaker 1: putting pressure on the police, but also understanding when the

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Speaker 1: police have limitations, when the police withhold information. For why

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Speaker 1: they do that, I will say, just as a recommendation,

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Speaker 1: One of the shows that I have my students listening

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Speaker 1: to is called bear Brook, which is done by New

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Speaker 1: Hampshire Public Radio and it is outstanding, one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite The first season is one of my favorite seasons ever.

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Speaker 1: Jason Moon, who's a wonderful journalist, is a prime example

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Speaker 1: of just excellent reporting on a case of two barrels

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Speaker 1: that contained bodies in the Bearbrook Park in New Hampshire

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Speaker 1: and the investigation and kind of the twists and turns

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Speaker 1: it takes. And so you know, every week when I

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Speaker 1: talk to my students about the episodes, they just say, boy,

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Speaker 1: they really know how to write in a way where

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Speaker 1: the police are respected but also sort of scrutinized. But

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Speaker 1: you know, they have these great sources and they really

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Speaker 1: try to talk to everybody, and it's clear that the

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Speaker 1: journalist is trusted by the sources, and that for me

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Speaker 1: is the hallmark I think of a good solid podcast. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, with Upstate Unsolved. Upstate Unsolved is a collaboration

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Speaker 1: with News Radio eight ten and one oh three point

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Speaker 1: one WGY, and they also collaborate which this I think

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Speaker 1: is a wonderful thing. They're in partnership with the Cold

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Speaker 1: Case Analysis Center at the College of Saint Rose. So

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Speaker 1: I feel like the information that we're going to get

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Speaker 1: on this next case is going to be solid because

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Speaker 1: I think they have a lot of information accurate and covered.

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Speaker 1: And so these are the kinds of podcasts that I

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Speaker 1: like to look towards that our researchers seek out when

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Speaker 1: they have new information that's exclusive. So we're going to

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Speaker 1: give them a lot of credit here.

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Speaker 2: No, well, that's that's awesome, you know, and I'm looking

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Speaker 2: forward to hearing this next case.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go ahead and set the scene. We are

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Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty nine again, kind of a contemporary case

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Speaker 1: for us, although not that contemporary. So fifty nine, where

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Speaker 1: is that with you?

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Speaker 2: That is?

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Speaker 1: Have you anything that old? I feel like you just

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Speaker 1: told me that and I forgot.

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Speaker 2: You know, the oldest modern case I would say was

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four, and within my agency, I would have

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Speaker 2: gone back further in time. It's just set. They didn't

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Speaker 2: have evidence going back much further. They had a few

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Speaker 2: cases with evidence from the late nineteen fifties, but they

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Speaker 2: were cases that have been solved. They weren't unsolved cold

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Speaker 2: cases that I would have gone after.

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Speaker 1: Let's just set this up right now, I'll have a

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Speaker 1: question for you. In the times before DNA analysis, when

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Speaker 1: things were collected, so in this case, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be hair samples, fingernail scrapings, some tire track impressions, but

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Speaker 1: mostly they really focused in on the fingernail scrapings. What

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Speaker 1: were they hoping to get from that in nineteen fifty

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Speaker 1: nine that would at all help in the conviction of someone,

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Speaker 1: if not to do DNA analysis, which wouldn't be available

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Speaker 1: for another thirty years or so.

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Speaker 2: Back in nineteen fifteen, when they're collecting fingernails, at most,

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Speaker 2: what they're going after is they just want to see

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Speaker 2: is there any tissue underneath the fingernails to indicate that

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Speaker 2: the victims scratched the offender, And that way it's a

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Speaker 2: feature that they could be looking for on the offender,

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Speaker 2: or looking at fiber evidence or blood evidence and going, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, possibly the offender ran off and had a

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Speaker 2: bleeding scratch. Biological testing like ABO testing, enzyme testing that

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Speaker 2: we were doing before DNA, they weren't even doing that

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Speaker 2: on such minute samples underneath fingernails back then.

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Speaker 1: But I would assume this sort of collection would be

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Speaker 1: beneficial later on, even though of course that's not their intention.

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Speaker 1: They cannot project that far ahead in time and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe this will be helpful later on. You're thinking they

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Speaker 1: collect this stuff present day just as a cautionary thing

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Speaker 1: to be able to use as some kind of evidence.

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Speaker 2: For sure, just so happens that DNA technology was developed

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Speaker 2: that they those investigators, OHCSIS didn't know anything about, could

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Speaker 2: not predict that that would have happened. But the fact

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Speaker 2: that they took the step to collect fingernails, of course,

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Speaker 2: has solved many cases that are from many decades ago.

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Speaker 1: Well, we are in nineteen fifty nine in a place

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Speaker 1: called Colony, New York. It's a small town in Albany County.

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Speaker 1: It's eight am, December eighth, nineteen fifty nine, and a

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Speaker 1: school bus driver is driving down the road in his

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Speaker 1: bus on Sand Creek Road. So everything is kind of

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Speaker 1: going normally for the school bus driver, except he sees

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Speaker 1: something on the side of the road just from the drive.

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Speaker 1: It appears to be a petite young woman. She's laying

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Speaker 1: face down in a drainage ditch, and she is fully clothed.

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Speaker 1: He can see all of this from the side of

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Speaker 1: the road. She's in a winter coat, she's wearing leather shoes,

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Speaker 1: and this ditch has about a foot and a half

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Speaker 1: of water in it, and she's face down. He sees this,

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Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't do anything. He gets in the bus and

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Speaker 1: drives to a nearby house and calls the police, and

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Speaker 1: the police arrive and they confirm that the woman is dead.

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Speaker 1: So she has been severely beaten and has many injuries

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Speaker 1: to her face in her head, including a long laceration

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Speaker 1: on the back of her head that cuts down to

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Speaker 1: her skull, but the skull is not fractured. So taking

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Speaker 1: all of this together, young petite woman looks like face

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Speaker 1: down in a drainage ditch, fully clothed, beaten about the head,

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Speaker 1: in the face, and then a laceration on the back

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Speaker 1: of the head, but not a cracked skull. So far.

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Speaker 1: What does that all mean to you? And fully visible from.

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Speaker 2: The road, Well, right now, all it means is that

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Speaker 2: you got a woman who was beaten to death and

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Speaker 2: she was disposed of in the ditch. Now, at this

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Speaker 2: point in time, I can't say was she killed at

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Speaker 2: that location, was she transported in a vehicle? You know,

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Speaker 2: this is now where the details have to start coming out.

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Speaker 2: But the extent of her injuries to her head. You know,

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Speaker 2: this significant laceration to the back of the head, she

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Speaker 2: likely is going to have been bleeding significantly, and so

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Speaker 2: that would be something that I would be keying in

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Speaker 2: on as I'm moving through the investigation. Do I have

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Speaker 2: a vehicle that seems to have blood in it? Do

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Speaker 2: I have another crime scene location that has a pool

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Speaker 2: of blood or some blood spatter? Is it possible the

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Speaker 2: offender may have blood on and you haven't told me

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Speaker 2: any information indicate how you know, how long she possibly

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Speaker 2: have been laying there right now? I'm assuming she's fresh.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And I'll explain why, because that's where Upstate Unsolved

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Speaker 1: kind of comes in here. Let's just start with the

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Speaker 1: bad things that happen in this case. So this town

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Speaker 1: has a very small police force, They don't have any

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Speaker 1: experience with homicide, and they do a terrible job processing

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Speaker 1: the crime scene. So when we're talking about where the

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Speaker 1: blood is and all of that, they do a very

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Speaker 1: hasty job just sort of documenting what's around, and they

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Speaker 1: remove the body from the drainage ditch and take it

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Speaker 1: to the funeral home in a nearby town before they

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Speaker 1: call anybody. The state police, the FBI, anybody with any

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Speaker 1: kind of knowledge. They yank up the body and take

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Speaker 1: her to a funeral home, and she's not even identified yet.

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Speaker 1: So this is already, I'm assuming, pretty problematic. Right.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's not a good start, no kidding, you know,

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Speaker 2: because it all really depends on how hastily they removed

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Speaker 2: her body and the extent of the documentation and evidence

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Speaker 2: collection that happened. You know. If all they did was

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Speaker 2: snap a few photos and throw her body in a

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Speaker 2: body bag and transporter, yes, that is completely incompetent. And

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming that that's kind of the mindset that I

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Speaker 2: need to take on in terms of what was found

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Speaker 2: about how this original crime scene was handled.

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Speaker 1: Right, And I'm not even sure photos this point, Okay, Right,

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Speaker 1: So they take her body, they take her to the

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Speaker 1: funeral home, and finally somebody smart decides to call the

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Speaker 1: New York State Police, and the New York State Police

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Speaker 1: show up and said, what have you done? Then they

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Speaker 1: make a decision that I think is odd. The police,

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Speaker 1: the state police, say let's bring her body back to

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Speaker 1: the drainage ditch and have the local police stage it

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Speaker 1: as closely as possible to how it was found. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the thought behind, what is the

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Speaker 1: thought behind that?

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Speaker 2: Even good God, no, no, no, I don't do that.

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Speaker 1: You can't trust the state police in this case.

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Speaker 2: I think with the state Police making that kind of

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Speaker 2: recommendation informs me that they don't have anybody that is

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Speaker 2: part of the team that is being on loan, that

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Speaker 2: has any real experience. You can't resurrect that crime scene.

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Speaker 2: All they're doing is further damaging her, her body, the

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Speaker 2: evidence of her body, and potentially the location at the

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Speaker 2: drainage ditch. This is where you know I've walked in,

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Speaker 2: I've been pulled into. In fact, one case I can recall,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not going to name the case in which

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Speaker 2: literally I'm looking at the local CSIS and how they're

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Speaker 2: handling the case. It was like, stop, the more you

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Speaker 2: continue doing this, the more you're rooting the case. The

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Speaker 2: best avenue that the state Police could have taken is going, Okay,

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Speaker 2: things up to this point weren't handled right, but from

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Speaker 2: this point on forward, we need to do it the

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Speaker 2: right way.

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Speaker 1: Well, they end up collecting quite a few things. Of course,

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Speaker 1: later there's an autopsy where they do the collection from

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Speaker 1: the things on the body, But here's what we figured

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Speaker 1: out so far, and I know that you're going to

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Speaker 1: be very interested in this. There are no obvious signs

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Speaker 1: of a sexual assault. When we've talked about the caviat

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Speaker 1: with that, there's no obvious signs of semen presence of semen.

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Speaker 1: But this woman, who we still haven't identified yet, isn't

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Speaker 1: wearing any underwear, and there is a panty girdle in

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Speaker 1: one of her pockets. And I'm assuming you know what

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Speaker 1: a panty girdle is kind of leaks banks for women. Now,

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Speaker 1: so what do you think about that. I think we're

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Speaker 1: going to hear a little bit about offenders dressing, undressing

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Speaker 1: and stuff with victims.

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Speaker 2: Well, there is part of that. My practice always is

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Speaker 2: to assume that there is sexual evidence present. Now, the

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Speaker 2: sexual evidence may not be from the killer, maybe from

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Speaker 2: a consensual partner. And this is how we can uncover

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Speaker 2: the victim's secrets. If she had met up with somebody

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Speaker 2: that her friends don't know about on the side, and

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Speaker 2: then she leaves that person and then runs across the killer,

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Speaker 2: it's important information to have. Also, we know that offenders

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Speaker 2: do allow victims to redress or will redress victims. However,

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Speaker 2: this scenario where the panty girdle is tucked in her

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Speaker 2: pocket versus just kind of thrown on top of her.

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Speaker 2: At this point in time, I'm going to lean towards

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Speaker 2: she put the panty girdle in her pocket, So maybe

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Speaker 2: she did redress and had to redress in haste. Did

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Speaker 2: she have a consensual encounter that went sideways and now

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Speaker 2: she's scared and she's trying to get away and she

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Speaker 2: doesn't Who knows what the scenario is, but most certainly,

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Speaker 2: even though it looks on the surface that she's fully

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Speaker 2: dressed in this day and age, her entire body should

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Speaker 2: be processed for sexual evidence, biological evidence, trace evidence, because

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Speaker 2: I have to assume that her killer had close intimate

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Speaker 2: contact with her prior to her body being disposed in

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Speaker 2: the ditch.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and before we get to the autopsy, I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you Upstate Unsolved. This podcast in twenty nineteen interviewed a

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist named Mercedes Fabian. Doctor Mercedes Fabian who reviewed

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Speaker 1: all of the evidence and said, you know, even though

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Speaker 1: there is this lack of quote unquote obvious signs of rape,

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Speaker 1: like the presence of semen tornheimen, I mean, all the

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Speaker 1: lists of things that you know, people say, oh, there's

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Speaker 1: definitely no signs of sexual assault, when we know that's

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Speaker 1: not correct. She of course says, I'm not convinced this

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Speaker 1: wasn't sexual assault because when we looked at the evidence,

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Speaker 1: the woman had blood on her clothes, most of it

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Speaker 1: on her braw but nothing on her outermost layers. And

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Speaker 1: remember she was wearing a jacket and shoes, and of

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Speaker 1: course she's not finding any underwear. So doctor Fabian is

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Speaker 1: saying kind of what you've said, which is perhaps she

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Speaker 1: was undressed, attacked, and then redressed at a different location

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Speaker 1: before she was left in the drainage ditch. Does that

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Speaker 1: make sense to you?

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Speaker 2: Also, Yeah, in fact, I probably if I had access

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Speaker 2: to the photos, if there, if she had been properly documented,

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Speaker 2: I possibly could end up making a definitive statement that

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Speaker 2: she had received bleeding injuries and had been redressed. And

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Speaker 2: this most certainly indicates that there's a sexual component to

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Speaker 2: this crime.

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Speaker 1: So the cause of death seemed to be by drowning

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Speaker 1: and not by the wounds that she had incurred during

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Speaker 1: the beating. She was discovered in eighteen inch deep water

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Speaker 1: in that drainage ditch and had inhaled a fatal amount

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Speaker 1: into her lungs, and what doctor Fabian said was she

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Speaker 1: had wondered because there was a lack of defensive wounds,

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Speaker 1: if the woman had been beaten so severely that the

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Speaker 1: killer had deposited her into the drainage ditch thinking she

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Speaker 1: was dead and she wasn't actually dead, and then she

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Speaker 1: inhaled the water. Doctor Fabian is not thinking that this

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Speaker 1: is somebody who held the head down on the public

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Speaker 1: road for this.

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Speaker 2: To happen, right, you know. And this is something where

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Speaker 2: a lot of people don't necessarily recognize that most of

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Speaker 2: these killers are very poor at killing. They don't have experience,

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Speaker 2: they're not trained killers, so they often aren't sure have

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Speaker 2: I actually killed this person or not. With the extent

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Speaker 2: that I'm imagining of the injuries to her face and

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Speaker 2: the back of her head, the sizable asceration, probably the

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Speaker 2: amount of bleeding that she was doing, and likely unconscious

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Speaker 2: or she goes motionless, this offender is thinking I've killed her,

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Speaker 2: not knowing that she's still breathing. You know. Now, part

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Speaker 2: of my question to the pathologists at the time would

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Speaker 2: have been just to sort it out. It doesn't really matter,

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Speaker 2: but the extent of her blunt force injuries, if she

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Speaker 2: had been left to lay without any medical intervention, would

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Speaker 2: she have died from those? Versus you know, obviously the

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Speaker 2: drowning aspect, because let's say you have somebody who's beaten

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Speaker 2: her and then has somebody else toss her into the water,

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Speaker 2: transport her and toss her into the water. Well you

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Speaker 2: need to establish, well, the person who actually did the

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Speaker 2: bludgeoning did enough to kill her, versus Oh, it's just

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Speaker 2: it's accidental. She was beaten, but I intend to leave

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Speaker 2: her alive, you know, and then somebody else scooped her

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Speaker 2: up and threw her in the water, and I had

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with that. You know, you can start

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Speaker 2: to play around with a defense in this scenario.

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Speaker 1: So what the autopsy says is that she was beaten

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Speaker 1: with a blunt object, which they think they've recovered I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you in a second, so violently that the blows

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Speaker 1: nearly killed her. We know that they say that because

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Speaker 1: of the water and the lungs, that the drowning actually

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Speaker 1: killed her. She had, as I said before, no skull

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Speaker 1: fractures and no bleeding on her brain. So does that

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Speaker 1: answer your question about whether he had dumped her in

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Speaker 1: like a dry ditch, whether or not she would have

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Speaker 1: survived longer, long enough to flag somebody down.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, this is where this term she had

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Speaker 2: been beaten so severely and subjective. Yeah, you have no

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Speaker 2: skull fractures, you have no subarachnoid hemorrhagying, or you know,

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Speaker 2: the various internal injuries to the brain that pathologists would

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Speaker 2: see as a result of really strong blows. But the

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Speaker 2: amount of her injuries, is it possible she could have

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Speaker 2: lost enough blood that she would have died. Head wounds

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Speaker 2: bleed significantly, you know, and particularly if this is a

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Speaker 2: very large gaping, you know, maybe overlapping lacerations on the

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Speaker 2: back of her skull as well as you know, bleeding

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Speaker 2: from the facial injuries. Is it possible? This is where

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Speaker 2: I always rely on the experts. You know, if I'm

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Speaker 2: at the morgue and I'm looking at this body, I'm

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Speaker 2: talking to the doctor saying, okay with what you see here,

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Speaker 2: you know, would she have died from these bleeding injuries

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Speaker 2: versus just the drowning, you know, is it a combination

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Speaker 2: of both?

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Speaker 1: And she's still not identified at this point, we just

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Speaker 1: say a brunette petite young woman. They collect twenty one

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Speaker 1: pieces of evidence from the scene and from her body.

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Speaker 1: There are hair samples, fingernail scrapings, tire track impressions, a

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Speaker 1: carjack that was found nearby that's missing a piece, and

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Speaker 1: scrapings underneath the woman's fingernails. So the fingernail scrapings contained

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Speaker 1: human blood and hair, and they preserve this. The carjack

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Speaker 1: is missing a piece, it's laying nearby, but I couldn't

365
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Speaker 1: figure out whether it was a piece that had been

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Speaker 1: broken off, like somebody had used it as a weapon

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Speaker 1: and it had broken off, or it had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with the case. But remember there was sort of

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Speaker 1: this long laceration on the back of her head. They

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Speaker 1: collect that and then they say, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: this is consequential or not. But the tire tracks had

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Speaker 1: a tread that you would think would come from a

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Speaker 1: vehicle that could handle mud or snow. But gosh, the

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Speaker 1: way the locals handled this case, it probably was like

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Speaker 1: a cop car. We have no idea if that has

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Speaker 1: anything to do with anything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's part of the problem with the way

378
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Speaker 2: the original scene was handled, you know, because there's always

379
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Speaker 2: you know, the offender commits the homicideer in this case,

380
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Speaker 2: disposes of the body and leaves, and then somebody discovered

381
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Speaker 2: the body. There's always an alteration to the crime scene

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Speaker 2: after the offender has left. Always you have to take

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Speaker 2: that into consideration. And that's where once you recognize what

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Speaker 2: you have, you have to freeze that scene to try

385
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Speaker 2: to preserve it in as close to its original condition

386
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Speaker 2: as possible. But of all of a sudden, you have

387
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Speaker 2: all these patrol cars driving up on the bank over

388
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Speaker 2: this drainage ditch, and everybody's kind of gathering around and

389
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Speaker 2: looking down on the body. Now you've got tire impressions

390
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Speaker 2: that have been overridden, you've got new shoe impressions that

391
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Speaker 2: are being left at the scene, their hairs, et cetera

392
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Speaker 2: being deposited.

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Speaker 1: You know.

394
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Speaker 2: So that's that just complicates the interpretation of well, what

395
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Speaker 2: is significant evidence in this case that you can go

396
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Speaker 2: that came from the offender versus it's part of what

397
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Speaker 2: we'd call contamination of the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Well, it looks like, according to Upstate Unsolved, there are

399
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Speaker 1: no signs of a struggle. There's no defensive wounds. The

400
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Speaker 1: wounds that she have are on her face, in her head,

401
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Speaker 1: and what doctor Mercedes Fabian, who was on the podcast,

402
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: noted was interesting is there's no money handprints on the

403
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 1: woman's coat, which is another reason why people think that

404
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: she was killed somewhere else and then dumped into this

405
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Speaker 1: drainage ditch. But why not put her someone more private?

406
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Speaker 1: I mean, this is literally a road where a school

407
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Speaker 1: bus is driving down. Was he just not concerned about

408
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Speaker 1: her being discovered? Obviously not.

409
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Speaker 2: Well, there's a multitude of factors in the offender's mind,

410
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 2: and this is a common disposal method that's used. Bodies

411
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Speaker 2: are just dumped off the side of the road, and

412
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Speaker 2: there's two fundamental reasons why that's done. One is because

413
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Speaker 2: they can do it quickly, and you think you're out

414
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 2: in an uncontrolled environment. The last thing you want to

415
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Speaker 2: happen is while you're disposing of the body, somebody drives by.

416
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Speaker 2: So they're going to try to choose a location that

417
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Speaker 2: in their mind is going to be remote, that has

418
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Speaker 2: little traffic, and they're going to want to get that

419
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 2: body out of their vehicle and somewhat hidden from the

420
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Speaker 2: roadside and then drive off as fast as possible to

421
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Speaker 2: limit the likelihood of a witness. But there's a second

422
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 2: there's an alternative reason why bodies are disposed of this way,

423
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Speaker 2: and this because the offender wants the victim to be found.

424
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Speaker 2: It's almost, in a way a taunt, you know, And

425
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Speaker 2: sometimes you can read into the offender's mindset in terms

426
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Speaker 2: of was the victim displayed, you know, posed in a

427
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Speaker 2: certain way that would start to indicate Okay, now you're

428
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Speaker 2: dealing with somebody that is more in that predatory realm.

429
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Speaker 2: In this case, right now, it doesn't appear that that's

430
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Speaker 2: the situation at all. I think this is more of

431
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Speaker 2: what I would just term as a dump and run.

432
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Speaker 2: The offender is just trying to get rid of the

433
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 2: body as fast as possible, and possibly knew about this

434
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: location ahead of time, so may indicate that the offender

435
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: has some local knowledge, unless it's like a main thoroughfare

436
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 2: that people passing through town would possibly use on a

437
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: frequent basis. But right now, I think that this offender

438
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: is just trying to get rid of the body and

439
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 2: get out in a way and back to home or

440
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 2: wherever the offender is going to go after getting rid

441
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: of the body.

442
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: Well, the police are desperately doing two things, trying to

443
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: find who killed this young woman and even more importantly,

444
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: trying to figure out who she is. So as soon

445
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: as her body is discovered, the police send out an

446
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: alert that has her description all over the radio, and

447
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 1: they're hoping, of course, she'll be identified. And that's what happens.

448
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: Shortly after this alert airs. Later that day, there's a

449
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: twenty one year old employee of a restaurant called the

450
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: White Tower Restaurant, which is a burger joint, and that

451
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: person is a guy named Nelson Paul. He says that

452
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: he thinks that the victim is his fiance. Her name

453
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,239
Speaker 1: is Ruth Whitman. She's from Albany, she's eighteen. He is

454
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: twenty one, and he calls the police and says, I

455
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: think this is Ruth. They ask all sorts of questions.

456
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: He says, I have not seen her since yesterday afternoon

457
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: at one thirty he said, I went to work for

458
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: a shift that lasted from one thirty PM at this

459
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: burger joint until eleven PM. He said, Ruth told him

460
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: that she would be stopping by her mother's house that afternoon,

461
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: and the mom says, yes, that's what happened. She said

462
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: that Ruth stopped by to pick up that panty girdle

463
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: that was mysteriously found in her pocket that you had

464
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: said it sounds like maybe she had done herself right,

465
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: because you said that a killer would probably not have

466
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: put in her I mean, it just seemed like a

467
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: weird place for a killer to put a pantygirdle.

468
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 2: Maybe my opinion isn't like, well, she must have done

469
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 2: it herself, right. I think it's more likely she did

470
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 2: because it's found in the pocket. Because I typically see

471
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: when victims' bodies are dumped, even if they've been redressed,

472
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: but some of their clothes are off, they're just discarded

473
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: right there, or the offender is tossing them out of

474
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: the car as he's driving away or something like that.

475
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 2: Now I'm wondering with her picking up the panty girdle

476
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: at her mom's, is that when she put it in

477
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 2: the pocket or is there a chance that she did

478
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: have it on later? You know then? And that gives

479
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: some sequence, if you will, because if she's putting it

480
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: on later, where's she going? And of course her fiance Nelson,

481
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 2: you know, he has to be eyeballed hard in terms

482
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 2: of of course, establishing his alibi, establishing his statements, processing

483
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: his body for evidence, processing his clothes, processing his vehicle,

484
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: because it looks like she likely was transported in the

485
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: vehicle and you're looking to see is there anything to

486
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: indicate that he might be involved. You have to eliminate

487
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 2: him right up front.

488
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: Boy, there's a lot to unpack with this. There's an

489
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: extensive timeline. Ruth encounters a lot of people. She does

490
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: turn out to be our Jane Doe. She encounters a

491
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: lot of people the night that she disappears. But let's

492
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: start the girdle, which I think is one of the

493
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: most interesting things. So this panty girdle she picked up

494
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: at her mom's and was found in her pocket. One

495
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 1: thing I did not tell you about the autopsy is

496
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: it turns out that Ruth Whitman was four to six

497
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 1: weeks pregnant. Now would she have known that, because Paul

498
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: nobody knew that, including Nilson. So the idea was, if

499
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: she had known that, maybe she was covering it up

500
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: with this panty girdle, which would have done a fine

501
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: job for quite a while of keeping this pregnancy quiet.

502
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: Ruth knowing whether she's pregnant or not. You know, I

503
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: think she may have suspected it, you know, based off

504
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: of her own menstrual cycle and then possibly missing her period.

505
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 2: Now at the panty girdle, I'm assuming that this is

506
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: like a full girdle that's like a pair of underwear

507
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: but extends up and compresses right.

508
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: One in the fifties would be down kind of into

509
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: the thigh area. I would call it spanks now that

510
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: somebody might correct me, that's what I would call it

511
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: as for women's spanks.

512
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: Okay, So in terms of talking to mom, was this

513
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: panty girdle recently washed or is it brand new? And

514
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: then part of the forensic aspect of this, is there

515
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 2: evidence that this panty girdle had been on her body?

516
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: Because as you know the women's you know, you get

517
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: the vaginal discharges or secretions that could be in the

518
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: crotch of the panty. So that would inform me, Okay,

519
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: she left Moms and then had put it on, if

520
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: it was clean ahead of time, you know, you have

521
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 2: to can't can't draw that conclusion if it's just something

522
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: that she had worn frequently prior to that getting it

523
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: from Moms. But that's something that I would be paying

524
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 2: attention to to see can I establish a sequence? And

525
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: then if she's putting the panty girdle on after leaving

526
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 2: Moms again, it's why is she trying to make her

527
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 2: figure more flattering because she's going to meet up with

528
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: somebody that's not her fiance, or is she trying to

529
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: hide the pregnancy as you suggested. But at four to

530
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 2: six weeks, I mean, she wouldn't be showing right.

531
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: Now, She wouldn't be showing, and it could have been

532
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: just your right. I mean, it could have just been

533
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: for Vanity, who knows. It's interesting though, to note that

534
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: she was pregnant. She might have known, we don't know,

535
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: but she did not tell anybody. You would have think

536
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: she would have told her mother. But she and Nelson

537
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: were living in quote unquote sin. They were not married,

538
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: and they even though they were engaged, they were living together,

539
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: which would have been kind of a no no, and

540
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: even in the nineteen fifties.

541
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: But at this point, I would not assume the child

542
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: is Nelson's boy.

543
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: Ruth is complicated, and I don't mean complicated in a

544
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: we need to look at her askew kind of way.

545
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: I mean like there's a lot happening in her life

546
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: and people coming in and out, so they of course,

547
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: as you said, start looking at Nelson, ask Nelson a

548
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: lot of questions. He identifies the body. That's kind of

549
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: the first thing, and then they start to put together

550
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: a timeline. They talked to a bunch of witnesses and

551
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: they learned that the night before her body is discovered,

552
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: which is December seven, which would have been cold, inevitably

553
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: in New York, she and a bunch of neighbors, Ruth

554
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: and a bunch of neighbors had crowded together to watch

555
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: firemen put out the flames of a nearby house fire.

556
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: So this is about a block away from the apartment

557
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: that she and Nelson shared, So a lot of people

558
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: saw Ruth that night at the house fire. It sounds

559
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: like Nelson was at work still, and police are starting

560
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: to interview all of these different witnesses because they want

561
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: to know who she was with because Nelson is at work.

562
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: It seems like that's indisputable he's at work. She was

563
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: there between ten forty five pm and eleven ten pm.

564
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: She is discovered at eight o'clock the next morning, So

565
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: you've got nine ish or a little bit more hours

566
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: where we're trying to figure out where Ruth was. She

567
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: is seen watching this fire with This is the best

568
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: they can do with the description a white man in

569
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: his twenties who was deaf, only not Nelson, because people

570
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: knew who Neilson was. But we don't know what the

571
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: interaction was like. We don't know if they really even

572
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 1: knew one another. They maybe spoke a couple of words

573
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: to each other. It's just that it's sort of this

574
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: nebulous witness account that we're not sure really adds to

575
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: the situation at all, except she was seen with a

576
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: couple of different men that night.

577
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 2: Well, the priority, of course, is to identify everybody that

578
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 2: was watching that house fire and get statements from all

579
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 2: of them, especially you know, seeing Ruth and who she's

580
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: interacting with. You know, maybe these are all just neighbors

581
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: and you can account for that. And then do you

582
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: have witnesses saying, well, I saw you know, Ruth walking

583
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: away by herself, or I saw Ruth get into a vehicle.

584
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: You know, do we have anything like that from many

585
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: of these You know, what do you want to say,

586
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: Rubbernecker's of the fire.

587
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: Kind of yeah, including Ruth who was rubbernecking. I guess

588
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: you would call that with a fire, Yeah, let me

589
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: tell you what the police have gathered from all of

590
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,239
Speaker 1: these witnesses who say many different things. They say that

591
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: this white man in his twenties, which is not helpful

592
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: at all, was arguing with Ruth at some point, but

593
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: not everybody saw that. And there are tipsters who would

594
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: come forward who have said that they saw Ruth eventually

595
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: leave the scene, and it's again contradictory, and these timelines

596
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: don't match up very well. So there are a lot

597
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: of sort of like misrememberings and misidentifications. Some people said

598
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: that they saw Ruth being punched by a man outside

599
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: of her apartment later that night, after the fire had

600
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: been put out, that she had walked to a friend's

601
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: house where the common law husband and an ex boyfriend

602
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: of Ruth's were hanging out at the time. They saw

603
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: Ruth getting into a red and white vehicle after leaving

604
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: this house fire. Two state troopers said that Ruth was

605
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: with a man with dark wavy hair who was leaving

606
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: a restaurant in Albany around one point fifteen am. So

607
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: this is all very strange that police seem to be

608
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: kind of the most accurate, and they said that eventually

609
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: a tipster reported seeing a red and white Chevy idling

610
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 1: about half a mile from the site where Ruth's body

611
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,959
Speaker 1: was found, and the tipster reported seeing the car around

612
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: eleven forty that night, so there were two people inside.

613
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: But none of this is verifiable. I mean, they are

614
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: not able to track down these people.

615
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: And this is not unusual in an investigation where you

616
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 2: are dealing with getting statements from a crowd like this.

617
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: Basically everything now is just being having to be recorded,

618
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: you know, and then as the investigation proceeds, something seems

619
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: to line up, like this red and white vehicle, This

620
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 2: red and white Chevy, Now that might be something worth

621
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 2: pursuing in terms of going out to the public and

622
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: seeing if they can get tips coming in about Okay,

623
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: who owns this type of vehicle in the area and

624
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 2: who else has seen it.

625
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: It's interesting Upstate Unsolved podcast, you know, talks about the

626
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: Chevy and that the tread marks are not matching the

627
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: rugged vehicle that the treadmarks you know, would have left

628
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 1: behind the police were documenting. We've already kind of said

629
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: that there's no way to really know how recent those

630
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: are or if this was a first responder coming out

631
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: or I don't know how much. We're really relying on

632
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 1: these tire treads not much.

633
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 2: Right, well, no, but you know at the time they

634
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 2: should have made efforts to try to figure that out.

635
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: If it is a responder, vehicle, law enforcement, fire, whoever's

636
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 2: going out there, all those vehicles need to be tracked

637
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: down and the CSI, the criminals, the evidence tech should

638
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,959
Speaker 2: be recording the types of tires, the tread patterns from

639
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 2: each of those vehicles to see if any of them

640
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: can account for any of the tire impressions at the scene.

641
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 2: And then if you have other tire impressions that can't

642
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: be accounted for that look reasonably fresh. And it all

643
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 2: depends on the type of substrate you have, whether or

644
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: not you can determine that, then that's the type of

645
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: tread pattern you should focus in on. But I guarantee

646
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 2: they didn't take that extra step. And that is routine,

647
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: whether it's shoe impressions from patrol officers who have to

648
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,720
Speaker 2: go in and clear a house, or tire impressions from

649
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: vehicles that arrive at the scene after it's discovered. You know,

650
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: we always do that. That's just getting those elimination standards

651
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: is what we call them.

652
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: Well, police want to know who Ruth is because they're

653
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: trying to determine who her inner circle is. They talked

654
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: to four hundred people over the course of their investigation,

655
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 1: more than four hundred people, huge amount of witnesses, lots

656
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: of interviews, and they have been left with a very mysterious,

657
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: contradictory profile of Ruth Whitman. There were people who said

658
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: that she was shy and kepture herself. There were others,

659
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: including her family members, who said she could be kind

660
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: of a smart mouth, and she liked to be the

661
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: center of attention. And it seems just like nobody knew

662
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: who Ruth really was. Only a few people really seem

663
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: to see her very often, of course for fiance Nilson.

664
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: Then there's her mom, and there were a few local

665
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 1: families that she babysat for. And then there's a woman

666
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: who identifies as a sex worker. And this is when

667
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: the police start thinking maybe that Ruth is a sex

668
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: worker also just simply because in nineteen fifty nine she

669
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: is associated with a woman who's a sex worker. You know,

670
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: Ruth is a babysitter. That's one of the things that

671
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: she did. She was eighteen, She babysat She didn't have

672
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 1: a regular job. So when the police start thinking about

673
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: maybe this is a woman who you know, had been

674
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 1: a sex worker involved in some sort of illicit trade,

675
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: then the investigation starts becoming a little gross to me

676
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, Doude police go down wrong

677
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: roads like that, I'm assuming they do, And I'm not

678
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: saying this is a wrong road necessarily. I'm just saying

679
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: that this is a little bit of a leap because

680
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 1: there's no evidence she was a sex worker.

681
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 2: There's all sorts of investigative paths that are pursued that

682
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: turn out to be dead ends, and just depending on

683
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 2: the set of circumstances, you're obligated to take a look

684
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: at it. You know, if Ruth is associating with a

685
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: known sex worker, you know, of course, is that friend

686
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 2: or professional associate? Does she say, yeah, you know, Ruth

687
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: was also working, you know, and so there may be

688
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 2: some veracity to that path of investigation. One of the

689
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 2: questions that I do have is Ruth is out and

690
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: about it appears while Nelson is at work. What is

691
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: the normal pattern. Would Ruth typically be home when Nelson

692
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 2: gets off work and comes home, or would she be

693
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: out and about or she taking advantage of the fact

694
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 2: that he's actually at work and maybe she's doing things

695
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: that he is completely unaware of.

696
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk a little bit more about Ruth and

697
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: then we'll get into their regular patterns. So Ruth came

698
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: from a very big family. She was the eighth daughter

699
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: of eleven kids, and you know, she maybe sat, but

700
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: she didn't have a formal job. You know, Nelson and

701
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: her family say she was out and about a lot,

702
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: kind of an unpredictable schedule because you know, she's not

703
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: working at a burger joint like her fiance is. She

704
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: was out of the house often, even when she lived

705
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: with her parents, and I'm assuming he had a curfew,

706
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: But we don't know what she was doing outside of

707
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: the house, whether it was illegal or whether it was

708
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: you know, just hanging out with friends. But she had

709
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: been with Nelson two years. They had had a very

710
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: volatile on and off again relationship, and in the off periods,

711
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: the media and the police found out that she had

712
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: dated other men, which is like, well, of course, that's

713
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: what people do. I don't think though, in the nineteen

714
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: fifties that was looked at as something that was very

715
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: proper for a young woman. They were living together and

716
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: not married. As I had mentioned before, that was also

717
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: not very proper. She had a very open friendship with

718
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: this woman who identifies as a sex worker. That was

719
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: not very proper. So she was also a drinker, not

720
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: very proper. There's all sorts of things that were falling

721
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: into before the nineteen sixties that frame Ruth as someone

722
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: who was a victim, who maybe is not so much

723
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: of a surprising victim anymore to the police because she

724
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: could have gotten herself into trouble. I don't agree with

725
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: any of that, But when we're talking about victimology in

726
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, this is what they were thinking is Okay,

727
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: well we have a big circle to look at now

728
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 1: it's not just Nelson and her mom and that's it.

729
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, well again, victimology is huge now with Ruth. What

730
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 2: I'm hearing is is that she has a much larger

731
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: social circle then let's say somebody who you know, she's

732
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 2: engaged and she's staying home in the evening where her

733
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 2: husband's out at work. Sounds like Ruth is actually getting

734
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: out and interacting with a wide variety of individuals, and

735
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 2: so that really does complicate well, where did she run

736
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 2: across her killer? Now it's it's drilling down on that

737
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 2: timeline to try to narrow it as much as possible.

738
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: And I know you mentioned these true that saw her

739
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: at one point fifteen with the red and white Chevy,

740
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: getting into the chevy or sitting in the chevy, and

741
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 2: then her body's found at eight o'clock the morning. So

742
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: now we've got six hours forty five minutes unaccounted for

743
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 2: at this point.

744
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: If we think that the troopers are right. But you know,

745
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: I mean they're the most reliable but still attractive brunette

746
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: in Albany, which was a big city. Still, I mean,

747
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, are you really going to be able

748
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: to pick out a woman like that at night in

749
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: the dark.

750
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: No, not necessarily. It's just that we have two sidings

751
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 2: of a red and white vehicle in this case, So

752
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 2: that boosts that up in my mind, not to where

753
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, I'm absolutely convinced that this is Ruth

754
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: and her killer in this red and white vehicle at

755
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 2: this point. But it's something where Okay, I always describe

756
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: these these leads. You know, it's like a seesaw. You know,

757
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 2: you may think you're going down one path, and so

758
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 2: the seesaw is kind of leaning that way, and then

759
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: new information comes in, and now the seesaw has to

760
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: tip the other way in terms of your efforts and resources. Well,

761
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: now that I'm hearing, oh, a red and white vehicle

762
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 2: in one instance, it's described as a Chevrolet. Okay, that

763
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 2: gives me something to go off of. I'll chase that

764
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 2: lead down until I exhausted, or new information comes in

765
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 2: where I can kind of just set that lead, the

766
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 2: red and white vehicle aside, and I have to chase

767
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 2: the new information because it has a greater priority.

768
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: Well, before you ask, Nelson does not have a red

769
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: and white Chevy. He in fact doesn't have a car.

770
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: So if this were Nelson, he could have borrowed somebody's car.

771
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how prevalent you can rent cars in

772
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: the fifties, but really, you know, if we're thinking that

773
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: she was transported, which seems pretty clear she wash, then

774
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: you know Nelson doesn't have a car to speak of

775
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: right now. He is a big drinker, so is Ruth.

776
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: They have had, as I said before, very volatile relationship fights.

777
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: He has hit her on at least one occasion, doesn't

778
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 1: mean he killed her, but it does mean that they

779
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: have had that kind of a relationship before. But Nelson

780
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,959
Speaker 1: has an alibi, which is the White Tower restaurant says

781
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: he was here all night until eleven ten. Now that's

782
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: about when the state troopers spotted they say, Ruth getting

783
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: into a red and white Chevy car. So this is

784
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: the same type of car that people say, was you know,

785
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: idling about thirty minutes later near this site. So where

786
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: she was found. Now here's what's interesting. I'm going to

787
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: go back to that real quick. A tipster said, this

788
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: red and white Chevy idled about a half a mile

789
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 1: from the site where Ruth's body was found, and there

790
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 1: were two people inside at eleven forty, So where would

791
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: the murder site. If this is accurate and it's Ruth

792
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: in her killer, where would the murder sight have been

793
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: in the car? And then he drove a half a

794
00:43:58,440 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: mile up and dumped her.

795
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: Right, that's one scenario, But I can think of a

796
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 2: scenario where let's say you have Ruth and her killer

797
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 2: in this red and white vehicle that's idling there, and

798
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,760
Speaker 2: then they go back to the offender's residence and now

799
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 2: she's killed. Put back in the vehicle and he drives

800
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 2: back out and dumps her body along that same stretch

801
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: of road. You know, that's not outside the rama possibilities

802
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: as of now, I'd leave everything open. The red and

803
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: white vehicle at this point in time, with the information presented,

804
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 2: is interesting to me.

805
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: So Nelson gets off at eleven to ten, and what

806
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: he says is that he walked home. He went by

807
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: this house fires where it's at. Apparently this is a

808
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: big social event. He walks by the house fire, and

809
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: he went back to the apartment that he shares with Ruth,

810
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: and the lights were on inside, but the doors were

811
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 1: all locked. He didn't have a key because he assumed

812
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: she was going to be home. He hoped at least

813
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: on the door. She didn't answer. He did not freak

814
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: out over this because Ruth goes out and he just

815
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: was irritated. But he thought, well, I'm gonna find a

816
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: way to get in. So a neighbor says that she

817
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: watched Nelson struggle to get inside the home, and she

818
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: yells out the window that Ruth had gone to watch

819
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: the house fire. You must have passed right by her.

820
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: He goes back to the fire. I'm sure irritated and

821
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 1: ready to get a key from her so he can

822
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 1: go to sleep. But Ruth is not at the fire

823
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: at this point, so I would bet like eleven thirty pm.

824
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: He goes back to the apartment pissed and sits outside

825
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: for two hours until she doesn't show up. He busts

826
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: a window, he climbs inside, he goes to sleep. He

827
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: wakes up at eight thirty and she wasn't there, so

828
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: you know, he figured she'd come home sometime after him

829
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: and then woken up before him and then left the house.

830
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: But as we get into the afternoon, he had heard

831
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: from his fiance and at about twelve thirty he heard

832
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: the radio broadcast, and that's how we end up where

833
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: we are right now. Investigators think that Nelson's story is straight.

834
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: I mean that this is probably what ended up happening.

835
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: And they also think that Ruth was definitely taken by

836
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 1: a car from the vicinity of the house fire in

837
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: Albany to the drainage ditch, which is about eight miles

838
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: away and Nelson doesn't have a car. And also just

839
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: one last thing, there is a description of the man

840
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: seen with Ruth at the fire, or it could be

841
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: also the person allegedly seen by the state troopers at

842
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: the restaurant in Albany. But you know, Nelson is still

843
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 1: floating about as a suspect in the minds of the police.

844
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: So that's just very all, very nebulous, you know.

845
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, I like that the neighbor sees Nelson

846
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: and corroborates at least part of his statement. His statement

847
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 2: rings true to me at this point in time, and

848
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 2: I understand the complexity. We know Ruth is transported in

849
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: a vehicle to be disposed of in the ditch. You know,

850
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: so Nelson doesn't have a car. He would have had

851
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 2: to procure a car. Now you're involving somebody else unless

852
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 2: he's stealing the vehicle. And then you could have a

853
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 2: reported stolen vehicle that come in and happens to be

854
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: a vehicle, let's say a red and white vehicle. You know,

855
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 2: that would be something the investigators would potentially key in on.

856
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: At this point in time, I am minimizing Nelson as

857
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 2: a suspect, on not eliminating him.

858
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: Okay, And I'll show you the sketch in a minute.

859
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 1: Even though Nelson doesn't seem to be their main person,

860
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: they keep an eye on him because Nelson is not

861
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: an angel, as we know. You know, he drank a lot,

862
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: they fought a lot, but he was visibly grieving. And

863
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 1: he eventually goes back to Canada, where he's from, and

864
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: the police look at him askew again because two years

865
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: later he gets into a huge bar fight in Canada

866
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: and kills another man. And so now they're saying, of course,

867
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: you know you are capable of killing somebody in a

868
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: bar fight. Maybe we need to talk to you about

869
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: Ruth's murder again. And this goes nowhere as usual. They

870
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: investigate it again in twenty ten, So this is seventy

871
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: years later, and they talked to him when he's in

872
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: his eighties, just to wrap that part of this up.

873
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: And he is consistent, completely convinced that Nelson had nothing

874
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: to do with it. And I am not going to

875
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,280
Speaker 1: lead you down a bad road. We don't have DNA

876
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: evidence that actually says Nelson did it. They have tried

877
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,280
Speaker 1: to clear him as much as possible.

878
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I didn't realize that this was an

879
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 2: unsolved case at least up until twenty ten.

880
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: Let me show you this, this sketch, and you can

881
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: tell me because I think this actually looks like Nelson

882
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: quite a bit, but I'll show you. So this is

883
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: Ruth on top, and then this is Nelson. Not the

884
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: best photo of Nelson. I'm sure this is Nelson. And

885
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: then so look at this sketch. I think it looks

886
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: a lot like Nelson. This is a sketch depicting the

887
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: man that Ruth may had been seen with by the

888
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 1: State troopers at a diner. Very nineteen fifties color up.

889
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: But he looks like Nelson to me.

890
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 2: It looks like James Dean to me.

891
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 1: Yes, he's very handsome, he's got sad The little corners

892
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: of his eyes are down in a sad kind of

893
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: sexy way. Yes.

894
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, But with all the you know, the entire crowd

895
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 2: that's watching this house fire, do any of those witnesses,

896
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 2: and they must not have, because you would have brought

897
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: it up. None of them are saying they saw a

898
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 2: red and white vehicle. Now, you know, as I think

899
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 2: about it, you know, this this house fire, you know,

900
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 2: this is really the last true time we can say

901
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: Ruth was seen. These other incidents, it may have been Ruth.

902
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 2: The consistency of this red and white vehicle by two

903
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 2: different witnesses, I think is significant. I kind of go

904
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 2: back to the pantegirdle in my mind. If she has

905
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 2: no no underwear on at all when her body is found,

906
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: you know, this is probably where talking to mom or

907
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: talking to her closest friend, you know, what was her pattern?

908
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 2: You know, would she typically be wearing underwear after she

909
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 2: leaves mom? Is she putting the panty girdle on, and

910
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 2: then when her body's found, the panty girdle is off

911
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 2: and tucked into her pocket. That's where I'm leaning towards

912
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 2: she met with somebody she was comfortable with, possibly right,

913
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 2: and this is where do you have a secret lover

914
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: on the side she tells him I'm pregnant and he

915
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: freaks out and that's why she's killed. Or I don't

916
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 2: know how much weight to put on the potential sex

917
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 2: work right now. I don't think I'm gonna put that

918
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 2: much work on it because I think the friend sex

919
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 2: worker would have said, yeah, you know, she was doing

920
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 2: this on.

921
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: The side, and no one's saying that, yeah.

922
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking right now, you know, unless you know,

923
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 2: some predator happened to see her walking home after the

924
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 2: house fire, and there's no witnesses seeing her being abducted

925
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 2: and you know, taken into the guy's car. You know, God,

926
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: maybe she knew her killer and they went somewhere to

927
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 2: be together and something happened that caused him to kill her.

928
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: Well, let's tackle the former some predator, because we do

929
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: have a predator in our midst here. His name is

930
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: Robert Garow. He moved to the area in nineteen fifty seven,

931
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: but he didn't get on the police's radar until nineteen

932
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: sixty one, which is two years after Ruth was murdered,

933
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,800
Speaker 1: when he raped a teenage girl. He went on after

934
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 1: he got out of prison for that to commit multiple

935
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: violent sexual assaults and he would eventually carry out a

936
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: killing spree that resulted in the murders of four people.

937
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: He was at the house fire that night, and he

938
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: lived a half a block away from Ruth and from Nelson.

939
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 1: And people think he looks a lot like this sketch.

940
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 1: I'll show it to you. I don't know, But what

941
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: do you think about that?

942
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: We always have predators in our cases. That's just par

943
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 2: for you know. Now, it's okay. You have to pay

944
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 2: attention to him. And when he is identified as I know,

945
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 2: he's living in the area and is at the house fire.

946
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 2: Now at least there's a nexus with him possibly crossing

947
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 2: pass with Ruth that night, and it's like, okay, well,

948
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 2: let's go see what he says.

949
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 1: He of course is denying it. This is the sketch.

950
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: I don't know. It looks more like Nelson to me.

951
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it really looks like Robert.

952
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: Well. This is where it's so hard with these composites. Yeah,

953
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: in terms of you know, I've seen some composites that

954
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 2: are really close, and I've seen other composites that are

955
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 2: just way off. So it's really hard to go. Oh,

956
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 2: I've got confidence that this composite is the man that

957
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: she was seen with. But taking the composite at face value,

958
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 2: in my mind, it doesn't look anything like Gary.

959
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: I agree, And they can't go anywhere with it anyway.

960
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 1: They cannot make a more decisive connection. He does not

961
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: have a red and white Chevy, doesn't seem like he

962
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: has access to one. They are trying to according to

963
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 1: Upstate Unsolved the podcast, they're trying to make a connection

964
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: with a friend of Ruth's and this woman's boyfriend who

965
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: when they go and interview Ruth had been at their

966
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: house and I had mentioned them earlier. When they go

967
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: and interview the boyfriend of Ruth's friend, he is a

968
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: known abuser. He has a history of beating people, including

969
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: the daughter. He has long scratches on his hands that

970
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 1: can't be covered up by band aids. He of course

971
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 1: says what happened, and he said, well, cat scratched me.

972
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: He has a pickup truck which could be the tire treads,

973
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: although we've sort of discounted those. And you know, the

974
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: police talked to them for quite a while. But despite

975
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: all of this, they never really get back on the

976
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: radar of police. They just cannot make a case about

977
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: anybody at this point. There's just not enough evidence of anything.

978
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: Did do they keep any evidence in that case up

979
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 2: to the current day.

980
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked that they did have the evidence

981
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: and they were hoping to analyze it, except no one

982
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: can find it. Say police don't have it, The Albany

983
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: police don't have it, the local police don't have it.

984
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,399
Speaker 1: They have no idea what happened. In twenty twenty two,

985
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 1: they exhumed her body because cold case investigators wanted to

986
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: get some forensic evidence. Of some kind that could push

987
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: the case forward. They tried to get new fingernail scrapings

988
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: from her body to make impressions of her skull injuries,

989
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: but it is to be continued. It doesn't seem like

990
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: there has been any movement on that case. The Times

991
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: Union newspaper said later in twenty twenty two that investigators

992
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 1: must now wait three or four months for results from

993
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: a private lab with a more comprehensive genealogy database to

994
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: see if the findings jibe with the initial Corners report

995
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 1: that listed her death as of drought, and if there's

996
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,879
Speaker 1: a hit on DNA with a possible suspect. But there

997
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: is absolutely no word on anything being developed as of

998
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. And now we've done research in twenty

999
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: twenty four and it doesn't seem like there's been any

1000
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 1: movement now.

1001
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: But they have a DNA sample out of genealogy testing laboratory.

1002
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: It sounds like it from Ruth. But I guess they

1003
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: were looking for more material under her fingernails after she

1004
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,360
Speaker 1: had been buried. Would that still have been there?

1005
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 2: You never know until you look, and so I would

1006
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 2: say there is a possibility. I mean, there are cases

1007
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:38,280
Speaker 2: in which foreign DNA is found underneath fingernails after victims

1008
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 2: have been buried. You know, my hope is, you know,

1009
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 2: part of the complexity is is her original where she

1010
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 2: originally was found in the drainage ditch with the water.

1011
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 2: But we've seen even with sub merged remains that DNA

1012
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 2: even on external surfaces of the body can persist even

1013
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:57,399
Speaker 2: though they're exposed to this water. And as long as

1014
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,320
Speaker 2: she's buried, Let's say I'm assuming in some sort of often,

1015
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 2: then I would say, yeah, you know, there's a possibility.

1016
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 2: It's a long shot, but there's a possibility that if

1017
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 2: her fingernails were still intact, that they could recover. And

1018
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 2: hopefully they're not just doing scrapings, they're actually taking cuttings

1019
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 2: of her fingernails, or at this point they're just collecting

1020
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: the fingernails because they would have detached from in all

1021
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 2: likelihood from the body. In some ways, the original processing

1022
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 2: of her body back in the day may have worked

1023
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 2: to their advantage because back in the day they just

1024
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 2: said scrapings, and this is literally taking something akin to

1025
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 2: a toothpick and rubbing it underneath the fingernails. This is

1026
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,240
Speaker 2: a very poor sampling method. We got rid of doing

1027
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 2: scrapings decades and decades ago and went to cuttings. So

1028
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 2: at autopsy, when I'm processing the victim's body, I'm taking

1029
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 2: sterile fingernail clippers and I'm cutting the fingernails down as

1030
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 2: low as I possibly can go to the fingers to

1031
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,280
Speaker 2: get everything. And now everything that is potentially under beneath

1032
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 2: the fingernails is collected versus just a poor sampling. So

1033
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: if her fingernails were still there with her body, then yeah,

1034
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 2: there's a possibility, even since nineteen fifty nine that that

1035
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 2: foreign DNA could have survived. It all depends on the conditions.

1036
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: It sounds like we don't have an answer just yet.

1037
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 1: So you know, all of this stuff has been happening

1038
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 1: over the past two years, and either they haven't gotten

1039
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: a hit or it hasn't gone anywhere, because I have

1040
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: not found anything here. Just looking at it again, I

1041
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 1: have not seen any kind of a development. There are

1042
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: newspaper articles from about two years ago, but there's no

1043
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,439
Speaker 1: update at all. So what do you think that means

1044
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: they didn't find anything, because it wouldn't have taken this long, right, Paul,

1045
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: two years.

1046
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 2: Usually these private genealogy testing labs are quicker than that,

1047
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 2: you know, so I would have expected that, you know,

1048
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 2: that some results may have already been obtained. But just

1049
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 2: because we don't hear anything doesn't mean it's a negative.

1050
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 2: On the DNA front. The number of potential relatives to

1051
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 2: foreign DNA recovered underneath their fingernails may have been poor,

1052
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 2: and so the genealogy process kind of hit a brick wall.

1053
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 2: So you have to wait until more people are added

1054
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 2: to the database or they actually got a result, and

1055
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 2: now they are investigating and they you know, and sometimes

1056
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 2: that investigation can take a long time, you know, so

1057
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 2: it's really hard without you know, the absence of information.

1058
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 2: You can't really extrapolate from having worked on the law

1059
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 2: enforcement side. There's so many variables, and they're going to

1060
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 2: be they're going to be mum about it until you know,

1061
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 2: they're ready to maybe make an announcement of an arrest

1062
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 2: in the case.

1063
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 1: Well, what I just saw was that, you know, they

1064
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 1: had exhumed the body, her body and gotten these samples

1065
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 1: in August of twenty twenty two. The most recent thing

1066
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: that I found was February of twenty twenty three, so

1067
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: that was about a year and a half or so ago,

1068
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: and what they said was that this was with the

1069
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,919
Speaker 1: Cold Case Analysis Center, and what they said was that

1070
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 1: they were hoping to get results back soon. But that

1071
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 1: was a year and a half ago, so you're right.

1072
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: Maybe they got the results back and you know, they

1073
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: were hoping to maybe they're pursuing something, or maybe they

1074
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: got no results and we don't have any answers, so

1075
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 1: who knows.

1076
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: Yep, it's entirely possible, and depending on what genealogy lab

1077
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 2: they sent it to. Sometimes a lab will just take

1078
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 2: the sample and run with it and not get a result,

1079
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 2: and hopefully that's not the case. Hopefully they sent it

1080
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 2: to a lab that actually assesses the evidence and doesn't

1081
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 2: just unnecessarily consume it. If it's a long shot at

1082
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 2: getting a result, you hold on to it and let

1083
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 2: the technology approved, especially for a case of this vintage.

1084
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 1: Well, vintage is right, and let's hope that we get

1085
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 1: an answer at some point about what happened to eighteen

1086
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: year old Ruth Whitman in nineteen fifty nine. It's so sad,

1087
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that she came from a huge family.

1088
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure that everybody was really devastated, whatever their relationship

1089
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 1: was with her, and it sounds like Nelson her fiance,

1090
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: despite having a really difficult time, really was not someone

1091
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 1: who should have been focused on. But I guess we'll see.

1092
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 1: We're going to really cross our fingers for the results,

1093
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 1: and I know that you've done that a lot, crossed

1094
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 1: your fingers in your toes for DNA results to come back.

1095
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 1: So this is par for the course for you, not

1096
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: for me. I don't like it one bit, but I

1097
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: know that this is something you're used to, and boy,

1098
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 1: you just don't have any control of when you get

1099
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: those results back.

1100
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 2: No, you don't. And you know, I think if I

1101
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 2: were involved in this case, you know, trying to find

1102
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 2: the original evidence would be paramount. I've seen evidence destroyed

1103
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 2: and there's no record of it being destroyed, even though

1104
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 2: there should be. But what I would be paying attention to,

1105
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 2: of course, it's rolling up your sleeves and getting into

1106
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 2: these property rooms or wherever the evidence may have ended up,

1107
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 2: and actually doing a search yourself, and don't just rely

1108
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 2: on the property technicians. But more critically is look at

1109
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 2: the cases surrounding Russ in the evidence room. Do they

1110
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 2: still exist? Does that evidence still exist, how is it handled?

1111
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 2: How is it documented? If you see a consistent pattern,

1112
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 2: and let's say there is consistent paperwork of destruction of

1113
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 2: those cases around Russ, then there should be paperwork on

1114
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 2: Roost case and then now you know what's going on.

1115
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 2: If you don't see that type of pattern, then you're

1116
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 2: kind of left in a lurch as to well, they

1117
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 2: just didn't document things very well back in the day.

1118
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 1: Well, again, I think this case is a great case,

1119
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 1: and it was brought to us by a podcast, you know,

1120
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: Upstate Unsolved. Good journalists doing good work. And I always

1121
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 1: tell my students that, just to wrap this story up,

1122
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: is when you're looking for what I consider to be

1123
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 1: a high quality podcast, looking at journalists is a good

1124
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: place to start. It doesn't mean you're going to find

1125
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 1: anything that's perfect, but really looking for people who know

1126
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: how to dig into a story. And it sounds like

1127
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 1: these folks did a really great job, and boy, I

1128
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 1: appreciate it. I like having reliable sources, and certainly if

1129
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 1: we get an update, we'll let everybody know. So fingers

1130
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 1: and toes crossed, Paul, and hopefully we'll have a good update.

1131
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 2: Well I will keep my fingers and toes crossed, and

1132
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 2: thank you again for another another case.

1133
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 1: See you next week.

1134
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

1135
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1136
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 1: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

1137
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1138
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1139
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1140
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1141
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:43,080
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1142
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1143
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1144
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 1: Baried Bones Pod.

1145
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1146
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1147
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and whose

1148
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 1: Best selling memoir Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases

1149
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 1: is also available now