Speaker 1: A lot of people suffer from depression and anxiety and
Speaker 1: even PTSD post traumatic stress disorder, and a slew of
Speaker 1: psychiatric conditions, and we can uplift and honor the wholeness
Speaker 1: of who we are and pursue well being even when
Speaker 1: we are suffering. Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Today,
Speaker 1: we welcome to the show Jordan Finegold, Resident physician in psychiatry,
Speaker 1: co founder of the Positive Medicine Program, and co author
Speaker 1: with me of the new book Choose Growth. Jordan graduated
Speaker 1: from the University of Pennsylvania with her BA and Master
Speaker 1: of Applied Positive Psychology or MAP for short. At present,
Speaker 1: she is a psychiatry resident at the Icon School of
Speaker 1: Medicine at Mount Sinai. Jordan is deeply involved in research, curriculum, development,
Speaker 1: and advocacy work pertaining to clinician well being, vocally, nationally,
Speaker 1: and globally. She's also my co author on the new
Speaker 1: book Choose Growth, a workbook for transcending trauma, fear and
Speaker 1: self doubt, which is out now. In this episode, I
Speaker 1: talked to Jordan about positive medicine and the importance of
Speaker 1: choosing growth as a physician and positive psychology practitioner. Jordan
Speaker 1: is on a mission to shift the focus of medicine
Speaker 1: from treatment to well being. As much as our physical
Speaker 1: health can influence our mental health, the reverse is also true.
Speaker 1: She talks about the impact and practical applications of positive
Speaker 1: psychology and healthcare. We also touch on the topics of resilience, relationships, communication, growth,
Speaker 1: and transcendence. Jordan and I are super excited to share
Speaker 1: our new book with you all, and we hope this
Speaker 1: conversation inspires you to choose growth in your daily lives.
Speaker 1: It was a real delight working with Jordan on this book,
Speaker 1: and I love the work she is doing in positive medicine.
Speaker 1: I remember when Jordan was an undergraduate in my positive
Speaker 1: psychology class at PEN She was one of my best
Speaker 1: students ever. I'm so proud of her. She has come
Speaker 1: a long way since then, but she's always been awesome.
Speaker 1: So without further ado, I'll bring you Jordan Fine Gold.
Speaker 1: How you doing, doctor fine Gold, Hi, doctor Kaufman, I'm
Speaker 1: doing well. How are you. I'm so glad to hear
Speaker 1: that I'm doing very well. I am so proud of
Speaker 1: you and all the amazing things that you've accomplished in
Speaker 1: the past. Couple of years and becoming a doctor. How
Speaker 1: long have you known that you wanted to go into
Speaker 1: the field of medicine. I've known that since high school
Speaker 1: biology class. That as soon as I learned the digestive
Speaker 1: tract and heard my bio teacher, Miss Provost, I will
Speaker 1: never forget sitting in her class talk about how she
Speaker 1: digested her morning bagel. I was so compelled by the
Speaker 1: narrative she used to talk about all of the enzymes
Speaker 1: that digested the bagel at various parts of the digestive tract.
Speaker 1: And that, combined with my love of human beings and
Speaker 1: always helping friends and being a pseudotherapist in my family,
Speaker 1: I figured medicine would be a pretty good gig for me. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And when you got to University of Pennsylvania, you were
Speaker 1: pre med track, Is that right? Was? I was pre
Speaker 1: med from day one, and I majored in Health and Society.
Speaker 1: So I did take psych one oh one, but positive
Speaker 1: psychology was the second psychology class I ever took, and
Speaker 1: as you know, because you were the professor, it would
Speaker 1: not be the last psychology class I would take. I
Speaker 1: was hooked. That's right, that's true. I was your professor
Speaker 1: and you were my best student of all time when
Speaker 1: you announced that when I guess lecture for your Columbia
Speaker 1: students now and you say, this is Jordan Bible, she
Speaker 1: was my best student of all time, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: that was fifteen. It's important to raise the vibration and
Speaker 1: have them something you know, to look, to look up
Speaker 1: to and and to aspire to be true. It's a
Speaker 1: true honor. I guess I'll say you were my best
Speaker 1: college professor. You don't have to say that. You don't
Speaker 1: have to say that truth, do you know, Scott? I
Speaker 1: originally was hesitant to take positive psychology with you because
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this. The year for
Speaker 1: the three years before you came to pen, Angela Duckworth
Speaker 1: taught positive psychology and I was so excited to take
Speaker 1: Angela's class. I missed the boat. I didn't sign up,
Speaker 1: and then the Scott Barry Kaufman guy was teaching it,
Speaker 1: and I had no idea what to expect. And I
Speaker 1: walk in and You're like this young cool guy sitting
Speaker 1: at the front of the class in a leather jacket
Speaker 1: and just cracking jokes and also teaching so beautifully and
Speaker 1: hearing the story of unngifted and you were amazing and
Speaker 1: after the first class, I felt so lucky to be there. Ah,
Speaker 1: that means so much to me. Thank you, Jordan. It's
Speaker 1: been really wonderful to watch your journey and how you've
Speaker 1: been able to integrate your interest in positive psychology with
Speaker 1: medicine and that you've started a field called positive me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so how did that come about, the idea for positive
Speaker 1: medicine and what is the field? I remember you asked
Speaker 1: me when I decided I wanted to become a doctor.
Speaker 1: Back then in high school and early in college, I
Speaker 1: thought that being a doctor meant helping patients be healthy
Speaker 1: and helping people develop habits and practices that enhance their
Speaker 1: well being. And it wasn't actually until I discovered what
Speaker 1: positive psychology was that I realized medicine is actually first
Speaker 1: and foremost, or the way at least that it's practiced
Speaker 1: in our country and most places in the world, is
Speaker 1: about getting rid of what's wrong with people and curing
Speaker 1: disease and getting rid of the bad stuff. So once
Speaker 1: I was in college and discovered this whole field of
Speaker 1: well being, that was when I realized, wait, this is
Speaker 1: actually more of what I want to do, but I
Speaker 1: want to help people be healthy in their bodies as well,
Speaker 1: not just psychologically but as a whole person. And so
Speaker 1: when I was in your class, I remember it was
Speaker 1: the second semester of my senior year. I deviated. I
Speaker 1: was going to go right to medical school and I decided, Hey,
Speaker 1: I need to do this MAP program and actually study
Speaker 1: positive psychology. And I remember you were You really encouraged me,
Speaker 1: and I came to your office to get some advice,
Speaker 1: and you said, this is positive medicine. You're gonna found
Speaker 1: the field of positive medicine. Do you remember did I
Speaker 1: say those? If it wasn't those exact words, that was
Speaker 1: what I took away from it. And I remember leaving
Speaker 1: your office and calling my mom. I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: doing positive medicine, and that's that's what I did this.
Speaker 1: When I graduated, I worked full time as a research
Speaker 1: coordinator running three randomized control trials at U Penn at
Speaker 1: the med School, and those were all about behavioral economics
Speaker 1: and financial incentives for different behavior aspects of behavioral change,
Speaker 1: which was fascinating. And simultaneously I was doing the MAP
Speaker 1: program and getting to really study the science, the theory,
Speaker 1: the philosophy of well being, and through the process of
Speaker 1: writing my master's capstone and really thinking about you know,
Speaker 1: there are so many potential applications of positive psychology and medicine.
Speaker 1: Where do I even begin. What I learned and talking
Speaker 1: to a lot of doctors and a lot of patients
Speaker 1: and just folks in the field is that doctors and
Speaker 1: healthcare workers themselves were really struggling with the lack of
Speaker 1: well being. And this question of if doctors are struggling,
Speaker 1: and they're supposed to be the ones promoting patients' health
Speaker 1: and treating disease, if they're struggling, how are we ever
Speaker 1: going to get this to patients. So the focus of
Speaker 1: my work became working with clinicians and healthcare workers to
Speaker 1: embrace well being principles for themselves and then subsequently giving
Speaker 1: them a skill set to translate to patients. So that's
Speaker 1: where it all began. That's what I wrote my thesis
Speaker 1: on and the following year when I got to medical school,
Speaker 1: I started applying it right away. And you know, as
Speaker 1: a non it's really hard to create a field and
Speaker 1: make change and make waves. So I really have had
Speaker 1: to do it from the ground up, working with medical
Speaker 1: students first, and then as a medical student starting to
Speaker 1: work with nurses and residents, and gradually as I built
Speaker 1: my clout and understanding of what the field has been,
Speaker 1: I've just been moving up as I go and broadening
Speaker 1: the populations that I've had the opportunity to work with. Well,
Speaker 1: I can say my instincts were correct, because I do
Speaker 1: remember thinking to myself, this is a real leader. The
Speaker 1: characteristics you have, you can be a real leader of something.
Speaker 1: And so I'm good to see that I was right.
Speaker 1: It sounds so important for this field to exist and
Speaker 1: for doctors to be trained in something beyond medicine, beyond
Speaker 1: the body, beyond the body, right, I mean, tell me
Speaker 1: in your training in med school, how much did you
Speaker 1: learn about the brain? Well, you obviously you were in
Speaker 1: the psychiatry tracks, you probably learned a lot about the brain.
Speaker 1: But how much did as like the standard curriculum, did
Speaker 1: you learn about the science of well being? That's my question.
Speaker 1: There was one lecture in my orientation when I was
Speaker 1: a first year medical student that they mentioned positive psychology
Speaker 1: and well being and perma was mentioned and mindfulness, and
Speaker 1: I remember sitting at the edge of my seat and
Speaker 1: being like I'm at the right medical school, and I
Speaker 1: happened to be at I was at the Icon School
Speaker 1: of Medicine at Mount Sinai, where our dean, Dennis Charney
Speaker 1: literally wrote a book on resilience, is a world renowned
Speaker 1: resilience expert. And so I landed in the right place
Speaker 1: for me that was so open. During orientation, I emailed
Speaker 1: my capstone to the deans and they were like, welcome,
Speaker 1: we can't wait to have you join the wellness committee.
Speaker 1: So I was at a place that was already quite
Speaker 1: attuned to this. That is not the case everywhere, and
Speaker 1: it's changed a little bit over the last seven years
Speaker 1: or so. But in the standard medical curriculum, we learn
Speaker 1: almost nothing about well being, if I really think nothing
Speaker 1: about well being. We spend two weeks on psychiatry of
Speaker 1: nine weeks on the brain. The rest is on neuroscience
Speaker 1: and neurotransmitters, and mostly the neurological the biological basis of
Speaker 1: the brain, and very little about the brain body interaction.
Speaker 1: I think there's one lecture on irritable Ballo syndrome, which
Speaker 1: is a quintessential disorder of gut brain interaction mediated by
Speaker 1: the vaguel nerve and disordered gut brain communication, and other
Speaker 1: than that, very little on anything functional that we don't
Speaker 1: actually have pistologic pathologic tests to evaluate. It is a shame.
Speaker 1: You can see the real potential for really shaking things up,
Speaker 1: you know, like there's at least there's a lot of
Speaker 1: room for growth. There's so much room for growth, and
Speaker 1: I've been so pleasantly surprised by the amount of growth
Speaker 1: that I've seen since getting into the field of medicine.
Speaker 1: When I started in medical school, almost everyone was still
Speaker 1: talking about burnout and suicide and all of the badness
Speaker 1: that mentally afflicts clinicians. The word well being was nearly
Speaker 1: absent from these conversations. Everyone was just talking about how
Speaker 1: do we get rid of everything that's bad, duty hours,
Speaker 1: all the structural changes, which is all so critical, And
Speaker 1: we know that the organization and the system is responsible
Speaker 1: for most of that which afflicts doctors, the burnout, all
Speaker 1: of the distress. Now people are talking about organizational well being,
Speaker 1: what interventions we can do to help promote the thriving
Speaker 1: of doctors. And that was really absent when I started,
Speaker 1: or I wasn't seeing it anywhere. It's mind boggling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, all that we know about the mind brain connection,
Speaker 1: embodied cognition is just mind boggling to me. What are
Speaker 1: your thoughts on the emerging field of embodied cognition? How
Speaker 1: have you brought it into your own work at all?
Speaker 1: I can't even tell you the number of patients that
Speaker 1: I've seen throughout my first few years of training who
Speaker 1: come to the hospital thinking or they're brought in by
Speaker 1: their loved one with something debt totally wrong with their body.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not eating, I can't hold down food.
Speaker 1: I've been weak for months, I can't move my leg.
Speaker 1: What these people are experiencing are some sort of grief
Speaker 1: or conversion reaction where you know, of course we have
Speaker 1: to do tests and rule out organic pathology, make sure
Speaker 1: no one's having the person's not having a stroke, that
Speaker 1: they don't have an underlying infection. And once we rule
Speaker 1: that out, most doctors are trained to say, Okay, there's
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with you. You can go You know that
Speaker 1: you can go home. There's nothing wrong. It's in your head.
Speaker 1: And what I found to be so meaningful and some
Speaker 1: of the best experiences that I've had are educating patient
Speaker 1: that what's going on in your body may be a
Speaker 1: manifestation of something that's happening in your life and going
Speaker 1: on in your mind, and it's really being processed through
Speaker 1: this physical symptom, and validating that you're not making this up,
Speaker 1: you're not crazy. That sometimes this is how the body works,
Speaker 1: and it's complicated and it's mediated by mechanisms that we
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know a whole lot about, but there is
Speaker 1: a lot that we do know, and you're The great
Speaker 1: news is you're not having a stroke. You're not going
Speaker 1: to die from this, and there are a lot of
Speaker 1: things you can do to heal and feel better, and
Speaker 1: some of those are as simple as connecting with loved
Speaker 1: ones more regularly, talking to a therapist, taking more walks,
Speaker 1: getting outside in nature, getting some fresh air, and really
Speaker 1: working with a patient to think, what is one thing
Speaker 1: that's within their capacity to do that they can make
Speaker 1: a change as soon as they leave the hospital. What
Speaker 1: do you think should be part of the regular checkup
Speaker 1: if you could incorporate one into a physicians like yearly
Speaker 1: check up, for instance, because they do the wellness check
Speaker 1: and what they do is is they say a scale
Speaker 1: one to ten, how depressed are you? That's it, That's
Speaker 1: all I get in my yearly checkup? Do you think
Speaker 1: we can do better than that? I think we can
Speaker 1: do much better. One thing that I'm teaching my co
Speaker 1: residents right now is what I call the well being
Speaker 1: review of systems. And theoretically every doctor at every primary
Speaker 1: care doctor, or even anyone you're sitting in a hospital
Speaker 1: every day, we should know what your review of systems
Speaker 1: are head to toe? Are you having any symptoms? Is
Speaker 1: anything wrong with you? Are you fainting? Are you having headaches?
Speaker 1: Are you coughing? Do you have a runny nose? Et cetera?
Speaker 1: From head to toe? And what I have introduced is
Speaker 1: the well being or I call it the revamp review
Speaker 1: of systems, where I go through the revamped construct, which
Speaker 1: is the definition of well being that I put forth
Speaker 1: in my master's work and that I teach. So I
Speaker 1: ask every patient about relationships. How are there your relationships going?
Speaker 1: Who's someone you can call? In your life? Things are
Speaker 1: going wrong? Did anyone bring you here? Any plans this weekend?
Speaker 1: With people? Engagement? What in life is keeping you going?
Speaker 1: What are you curious about? Vitality? Are you sleeping? How
Speaker 1: are you sleeping? Are you eat? What are you eating?
Speaker 1: Are you getting any physical activity. If so, how do
Speaker 1: we reconceptualize something that they're already doing as being physical
Speaker 1: activity that they're not encoding that way? What's going well lately?
Speaker 1: What gives you a sense of accomplishment? What are you
Speaker 1: part of that's larger than yourself? Your sense of meaning?
Speaker 1: What makes you wake up out of bed in the
Speaker 1: morning and positive emotions? Tell me about some good stuff
Speaker 1: in your life. What are you laughing about? What are
Speaker 1: you curious about recently? When did you last feel calm?
Speaker 1: And I actually like starting the interview this way because
Speaker 1: when people then start to talk about everything that's going
Speaker 1: wrong and all of their distress, which is naturally the
Speaker 1: focus of a medical visit, you know, I'm here with
Speaker 1: this problem. I can draw on what's going well in
Speaker 1: their life to help them either reorient or reconceptualize something
Speaker 1: that they are encoding as a problem that there may
Speaker 1: be a lot of potential to work with already. Wow wow, wow,
Speaker 1: Well that if you got on that much information out
Speaker 1: of them, you're learning so much more about them as
Speaker 1: a whole person. The trauma, loss, and uncertainty of our
Speaker 1: world have led many of us to ask life's biggest
Speaker 1: questions such as who are we, what is our highest purpose?
Speaker 1: And how do we not only live through, but thrive
Speaker 1: in the wake of tragedy, division, and challenges to a
Speaker 1: fundamental way of living. To help us all address these questions,
Speaker 1: process what this unique time in human history has meant
Speaker 1: for us personally and collectively an emerge whole, I've collaborated
Speaker 1: with my colleague and dear friend, doctor Jordan Feingeld, MD
Speaker 1: to bring you our forthcoming book. It's called Choose Growth,
Speaker 1: a workbook for transcending trauma, fear, and self doubt. It's
Speaker 1: a workbook design to guide you in a journey of
Speaker 1: committing to growth and the pursuit of self actualization every day.
Speaker 1: It's chock full of research from humanistic psychology, positive psychology,
Speaker 1: developmental psychology, personality psychology, cognitive science, and neuropsychology. So lots
Speaker 1: of themes that you hear about on this podcast, and
Speaker 1: it's aimed to help us all integrate the many facets
Speaker 1: of ourselves and co crete our new normal with a
Speaker 1: renewed sense of strength, vitality, and hope. Whether you're healing
Speaker 1: from loss, adapting to the new normal, or simply looking
Speaker 1: ahead to life's next chapter. Choose Growth will help steer
Speaker 1: you there to deeper connection to your values, your life vision,
Speaker 1: and ultimately your most authentic self. Choose Growth will officially
Speaker 1: hit the shelves September thirteenth, and you can border your
Speaker 1: copy or the audiobook in the US now on Amazon,
Speaker 1: Barnes and Noble, Indie Bound, and all major retailers. If
Speaker 1: you're in the UK and Commonwealth, you can border now
Speaker 1: at bookshop dot org dot UK. We truly hope this
Speaker 1: book helps you grow and thrive and become your best self. Okay,
Speaker 1: now back to the show. Can you connect the dots
Speaker 1: from me? How do you connect as a physician? What
Speaker 1: can you actually do with that information? What is actually
Speaker 1: within your power without becoming a psychiatrist if that's not
Speaker 1: your specialization. Yeah, well, in psychiatry, which is my job,
Speaker 1: that is my job. Of course I have to ask
Speaker 1: about suicidal ideation and all that's wrong. But truly, if
Speaker 1: I can get there with my patients is the that
Speaker 1: is a very successful session for someone who is more
Speaker 1: focused on the physical body and manifestations of you know,
Speaker 1: let's say diabetes, right, So diabetes is a very common
Speaker 1: condition that affects many people in this country, and it
Speaker 1: is increasing with type two diabetes mediated by our very
Speaker 1: poor diets. If I can understand who is in a
Speaker 1: person's life, I can understand I can prescribe. Why don't
Speaker 1: you go for a walk with your neighbor? I know
Speaker 1: you love you know you love your neighbor. What if
Speaker 1: the two of you started a walking program twice a week,
Speaker 1: or you know, I know it's really hard to motivate
Speaker 1: yourself to do this alone. But what if you took
Speaker 1: your friend to the grocery store and you could do
Speaker 1: this together, or cook with your child a new healthy recipe.
Speaker 1: Who loves to cook? What if you go on Zoom
Speaker 1: together I know they live across the country, and make
Speaker 1: a healthy recipe for yourself. So it's like, if I
Speaker 1: know this person's social network, if I know what they
Speaker 1: enjoy doing, I can use those things as as actually
Speaker 1: possible plausible interventions in their life to help them towards
Speaker 1: their health. Amazing. I mean, that'd be such a game changer.
Speaker 1: Let's not understate how much a game changer that would
Speaker 1: be in even recognizing that our thought patterns and our
Speaker 1: cognitive distortions can influence things like diabetes. Like it's not
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, right. It's not just one direction where we
Speaker 1: get sick and then we get sad. Absolutely not. And
Speaker 1: there are so many medical conditions that are they're bi directional.
Speaker 1: So things like depression, which is pro inflammatory, can influence
Speaker 1: symptoms of another inflammatory disease in the body, such as
Speaker 1: inflammatory bowel disease which is a set of patients that
Speaker 1: I work with, or autoimmune diseases. And I have a
Speaker 1: patient right now in a psychiatric setting who is very,
Speaker 1: very distressed by her physical symptoms such that she meets
Speaker 1: criteria for what we call a somatic symptom disorder. That
Speaker 1: she's so preoccupied with her physical health that it's really
Speaker 1: debilitating her and preventing her from really doing anything else
Speaker 1: in her life other than focusing on her dysfunction. So
Speaker 1: creating a space to think with her about what is
Speaker 1: going well, where she can give herself credit for getting
Speaker 1: things done, what can she check off her list that
Speaker 1: she's been avoiding secondary to her physical symptoms, and just
Speaker 1: being there as a positive presence in her life to
Speaker 1: bounce off ideas, she's gotten so much less anxious and
Speaker 1: now she's actually doing things that she's spending less time
Speaker 1: worrying about her physical ailments. Isn't that hypochondria, so hypochondriasis,
Speaker 1: but this is it's a very specific symptom that's bothering her,
Speaker 1: not symptoms in general. Gotcha, gotcha? Gotcha? Gotcha? Asking for
Speaker 1: our friend, Scott, Oh, let's talk about our book that
Speaker 1: we were able to work on together, which I thought
Speaker 1: you'd never asked. I think it really brought out our
Speaker 1: complimentary strengths. I agree so much. It has been such
Speaker 1: an incredible joy working on this project with you. I
Speaker 1: think it's brought about every emotion in me and whatever
Speaker 1: it has been, positive, negative, good, bad, ugly. You've been
Speaker 1: there to give me the reaction that I've needed, and
Speaker 1: I hope vice versa. Yes, really, yes, quite so. And
Speaker 1: we wrote this book in maybe six months, which I
Speaker 1: think is probably a record. I mean, it's incredible. So,
Speaker 1: just to give people a little context, Jordan and I
Speaker 1: really felt this urgency to get a workbook out there
Speaker 1: to help people with their growth during this time, this
Speaker 1: specific time in human history where it seems like there
Speaker 1: are things coming at us in every direction NonStop. You know,
Speaker 1: just when you think that one variant has gone, the
Speaker 1: next variant comes in. And then when you think, you know,
Speaker 1: one political thing has maybe been resolved, it gets even
Speaker 1: worse than you even thought it was possible to get worse.
Speaker 1: So anyway, we rolled up our sleeves and we wrote
Speaker 1: this book together called Choose Growth, which took us only
Speaker 1: six months to write, and that is probably a record.
Speaker 1: It's definitely a record for me in writing books. But
Speaker 1: it flowed really well, and it seemed to for you.
Speaker 1: You know, it seems like these exercises that you came
Speaker 1: up with just poured right out of you. Am I right?
Speaker 1: They did, yes, and they did because it was such
Speaker 1: a reaction to what I was experiencing, and I think
Speaker 1: so many people in my life were experiencing, like at
Speaker 1: the beginning of the pandemic. Before we wrote this book,
Speaker 1: I felt really probably the most depressed that I've ever
Speaker 1: felt in my life. In maybe let's say June twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: I felt the most helpless, the most isolated, the most
Speaker 1: sort of bleak that I think I've ever felt in
Speaker 1: my life. I'm lucky to be kind of an outbloom
Speaker 1: optimist and I have a pretty high happiness at point.
Speaker 1: And you know, when I realized how low I was
Speaker 1: feeling as someone who studies mental health, has studied positive psychology.
Speaker 1: I got engaged during that time. I was still I
Speaker 1: had this revelation like, if I'm suffering the way I am,
Speaker 1: how the heck is anyone else functioning? And I think, right,
Speaker 1: like you know, someone I objectively on the aside. No
Speaker 1: one who family died from this, And yet I was
Speaker 1: so overwhelmed by the unknown, by the fear of what
Speaker 1: was going to happen. It's just like what the future
Speaker 1: was going to be. Medicine was became really scary, Like
Speaker 1: I knew the next year I'd be in the hospital
Speaker 1: treating these COVID patients who were dying left and right.
Speaker 1: We didn't have enough vandilaters. I was experiencing this residual
Speaker 1: moral injuries. Anyway, it was a really dark time and
Speaker 1: I felt what can I do? And once we decided
Speaker 1: to write this book, I think things had gotten a
Speaker 1: little bit better. But I had so many thoughts and
Speaker 1: just so many personal experiences of things that I felt
Speaker 1: would have helped me and did help me. So yeah,
Speaker 1: and with your book Transcend as our guide to this
Speaker 1: work book, I mean it was just like bing bang boom. Yeah. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: it definitely felt that way, absolutely where to begin in
Speaker 1: talking about it, summarizing for our listeners our book, because
Speaker 1: we also want this episode to really serve as a good,
Speaker 1: good summary of the book as well, and we want
Speaker 1: to inspire people to go out and buy it, you know,
Speaker 1: one hundred percent. I think if you are a human
Speaker 1: being listening to this podcast and you love Scott, which
Speaker 1: obviously you do, great to meet you everyone, I think
Speaker 1: you need to buy this book or you need to
Speaker 1: give it to a friend. It's like, you know, we
Speaker 1: say very we're straight up in the introduction of the
Speaker 1: book that it is not a replacement for therapy. And
Speaker 1: I'm the first one to tell you that I believe
Speaker 1: everyone should be in therapy. I understand there is not
Speaker 1: There are not enough therapists to control that that demand,
Speaker 1: to meet that demand. So while you're waiting for your
Speaker 1: therapist in between sessions, if you can only see someone
Speaker 1: once a month or once every two months, or you
Speaker 1: really have a friend who serves as your therapist, work
Speaker 1: on the practices in the in this book and bring
Speaker 1: your reflections to another human being. It's really not something
Speaker 1: that I think people benefit the most from from just
Speaker 1: sitting down and doing it. Personally, I think this book
Speaker 1: is best done, read, processed, complete the exercises and then
Speaker 1: share them with someone in a book club and a
Speaker 1: group of people on a similar path of growth, because
Speaker 1: I've had I've had the best experiences, you know, obviously
Speaker 1: coming up with these practices or finding them and then
Speaker 1: talking about them with other people, including my own therapist. Yeah, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that would be a really wonderful thing if this book
Speaker 1: really a good guide for people while they're already in
Speaker 1: therapy or coaching or coaching, well especially coaching. You know,
Speaker 1: we're starting a new form of coaching called self actualization coaching,
Speaker 1: which we hope and hope to open up applications later
Speaker 1: this year for those who want to be certified in
Speaker 1: this form of coaching. And so much of therapy is
Speaker 1: about kind of getting people from negative fifty to zero,
Speaker 1: you know, and and to be able to read this
Speaker 1: book and maybe educate your own therapist, you know, about like, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe I'm capable of more than just not
Speaker 1: being anxious in our sessions and in acknowledging that mental illness.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of us suffer a lot of
Speaker 1: people suffer from depression and anxiety and even PTSD, post
Speaker 1: traumatic stress disorder, and a slew of psychiatric conditions, and
Speaker 1: we can uplift and honor the wholeness of who we
Speaker 1: are and pursue well being even when we are suffering.
Speaker 1: And our book is so clear that it's not about
Speaker 1: suppressing our dark side or tucking away that which afflicts us,
Speaker 1: but really welcoming it to the table and saying, here
Speaker 1: you are, you are part of me. How do I
Speaker 1: move forward acknowledging that you're here with me in this
Speaker 1: journey of my life? I love that all. I love
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Speaker 1: Dash Psychology Dash Podcast. Thanks for your help. One of
Speaker 1: my favorite chapters in our book, it's like picking your
Speaker 1: favorite baby, But one of my favorite chapters is the
Speaker 1: one Who's in Your Boat, which you wrote. I believe
Speaker 1: most of that chapter to give you credit for that,
Speaker 1: and it seems like it's a really important foundation for
Speaker 1: a lot of growth that's things going to happen afterwards,
Speaker 1: because we want to make clear that we're not talking
Speaker 1: about just shooting for the highest levels of growth, you know,
Speaker 1: based on no foundation at all. Can talk us a
Speaker 1: little bit about the foundation that's so important to be
Speaker 1: able to explore from. I'm so grateful to have written
Speaker 1: this book with you, Scott, because it relies so deeply
Speaker 1: on the foundation that you developed and transcend and the
Speaker 1: sail boat metaphor is the basis of this whole book.
Speaker 1: So I'm quoting you, and please correct me if I'm
Speaker 1: if I say anything that's wrong, because this is your expertise.
Speaker 1: But the base of our boat, and the base of say,
Speaker 1: our security cycle is safety, having our physiologic needs, met
Speaker 1: connection and self esteem. These three pillars that really comprise
Speaker 1: our fundamental ability to sort of be ourselves in the
Speaker 1: world before we can really open up our sales and
Speaker 1: and transcend. As you describe and connection as something distinct
Speaker 1: from love, which is you write about as a higher
Speaker 1: order need. And we have a chapter later in our
Speaker 1: book about love is really about taking stock of other
Speaker 1: human beings, animals, people dead or alive. And I think
Speaker 1: this is critical because I've talked about this with my patients,
Speaker 1: and a lot of them had deep connections with people
Speaker 1: who are no longer living. And I would say that
Speaker 1: applies to you, Abraham Moslow, your best friend who you
Speaker 1: never met. Yeah, that's right, that we can a deep
Speaker 1: connection with those who are no longer with us, who
Speaker 1: we may never have met, but connectedness to another human
Speaker 1: being and another feeling like we belong and that we
Speaker 1: are accepted, and that we have people or the other
Speaker 1: beings to turn to for support. And we have this
Speaker 1: question in our book. You know who is in your
Speaker 1: boat and we have a scale, and you know, I
Speaker 1: am so inundated with connections. I can't even I don't
Speaker 1: even know where to start to. You know, I have
Speaker 1: some connections and they're not so high quality. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure who I would want to bring with me on
Speaker 1: this journey. And then the very real response which I
Speaker 1: hear from people often is I actually have no one,
Speaker 1: and there are too many people on this planet who
Speaker 1: genuinely experience the world alone. And it's an epidemic. It's
Speaker 1: something of VIVEC. Murphy, our Surgeon General, wrote a whole
Speaker 1: book about right before it came out, as the pandemic
Speaker 1: was happening, and COVID was such an isolating time for people.
Speaker 1: And I think of all of the things we write
Speaker 1: about in our book, having other people, the presence of
Speaker 1: positive relationships is just the most important thing for well
Speaker 1: being and living a meaningful existence. That if we can
Speaker 1: take anything away from this book, it's how can we
Speaker 1: deep in and enhance some of the connections that we
Speaker 1: already have or build ones with people who we don't
Speaker 1: yet have connections with. I love that. And one of
Speaker 1: the areas you specialize in within the need for connection
Speaker 1: is active constructive responding technique. You are the world's leading
Speaker 1: expert on this. Do you want to do it a
Speaker 1: little bit? I would love to do some active constructive responding.
Speaker 1: This is a really important part part of a healthy
Speaker 1: what we call and what Jane Dudd and her colleagues
Speaker 1: call a high quality relationship. This is an important core
Speaker 1: part of a high quality relationship. So, Scott, any good
Speaker 1: news that you have going on recently that you Oh
Speaker 1: my god, I'm so excited. Jordan, I just got a
Speaker 1: book contract for a book I Choose Growth with my
Speaker 1: best student of all time. Her name's Jordan Finegeld, isn't
Speaker 1: I mean? Is that amazing? Choose Growth? What an incredible title?
Speaker 1: Tell me more? How did you come up with this idea?
Speaker 1: It's a Maslow Abraham Maslow has a quote you can
Speaker 1: either choose to go forward back. You can choose to
Speaker 1: go back towards safety and fear, or you can choose
Speaker 1: to move forward and choose growth. And we must choose
Speaker 1: growth again and again and overcome the fear response again
Speaker 1: and again. And it just seems like that word choose,
Speaker 1: that term choose growth would be great for a book.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that is such an important and amazing quote.
Speaker 1: And you wrote a book basically all about Abraham Maslow's life.
Speaker 1: This is so coherent. Well, you're not wrong. I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it. Congratulations with my friend, Thanks Jordan. So
Speaker 1: that would be falling the quadrant that would be positive?
Speaker 1: What would that be called? That would be active? Construct active,
Speaker 1: constructive responding it also? Dare I say what would fall
Speaker 1: under Carl rodgers notion of unconditional positive regard? Absolutely, I
Speaker 1: would say so too, I would say so do I
Speaker 1: think Carl Rodgers would say so? So? Okay, let's do
Speaker 1: one more example and don't tell anyone what that's called yet,
Speaker 1: what what the response is called yet and what we'll
Speaker 1: label it later. But let's let's do this. I should
Speaker 1: demonstrate a different one more, a different style, so we
Speaker 1: can show the contrast, show the most maladaptive one, the
Speaker 1: one that's correlated with relationship dysfunction. Okay, I can do
Speaker 1: that for those of you watching at home. My cell
Speaker 1: phone is out, okay, Okay, Oh my gosh, Jordans, I
Speaker 1: just got a book contract for a book called Choose
Speaker 1: Growth with my best ever Jordan by Gold. That's cool, Scott.
Speaker 1: I can tell you're very excited about this. I just
Speaker 1: got a really important email. Do you mind holding that
Speaker 1: thought for like, I don't know until tomorrow. We can
Speaker 1: stay this way. I'm so scary, I'm I'm just so busy.
Speaker 1: I'm so busy at work. I'm a doctor, Scott, I'm
Speaker 1: getting patients emailing me. Ugh later, you know you're very busy.
Speaker 1: It's true. Yes, absolutely, we'll talk later. I'll go call
Speaker 1: my mom tell her yeah, yeah, Shu'll root for you. You
Speaker 1: You will. Oh that's so painful. I hate that. Now.
Speaker 1: What's that called, Jordan? So that one's actually called passive constructive.
Speaker 1: It's not like actively destructive, but it's passive versus active
Speaker 1: in the sense that I'm sitting on my phone I'm chilling.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that's great, Like, let me let me.
Speaker 1: I want to hear about this, but I can't right
Speaker 1: now because my stuff is just too important. Passive constructive, Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: this is really good to know. This is really good
Speaker 1: to know. And what are some other elements that make
Speaker 1: up a high quality relationship? So I love Jane Dunnan's
Speaker 1: concept of high quality connections. It's really been studied in
Speaker 1: the workplace, and we talk about this in really any
Speaker 1: working relationship. But I'm just going to pull up our
Speaker 1: chapter in the book so I don't misquote us or
Speaker 1: Jane and her colleagues. I believe Emily Heathy is one
Speaker 1: of her co authors and really, there's four four qualities
Speaker 1: of the connection that she talks about. One is trusting,
Speaker 1: so really being in a relationship of being able to
Speaker 1: trust someone, and again this is really in the workplace.
Speaker 1: Respectful engagement is another one, so really operating in a
Speaker 1: way that sends a message of value. The third quality
Speaker 1: is task enabling, so helping to facilitate another person's successful performance.
Speaker 1: And Scott, I think we task n able all the time.
Speaker 1: We like divide and conquer, and I do things that
Speaker 1: are really in my wheelhouse, and you do all the
Speaker 1: things that are in your wheelhouse. And then the fourth one,
Speaker 1: which I love and is the most fun, is playing,
Speaker 1: having a playful sometimes even doing games in a relationship,
Speaker 1: having a playful style of banter, and being able to
Speaker 1: really let your guard down with one another. It seems
Speaker 1: like there may be a thread that runs through all
Speaker 1: of them, which is trust, right, It seems it does
Speaker 1: seem like that's a good one. Well, yeah, and trust
Speaker 1: really is a core feature of the high quality connection
Speaker 1: that they talk about. But I think you actually need
Speaker 1: a high level of trust to be able to feel
Speaker 1: playful and to know that you can task people because
Speaker 1: you do trust that the person will be able to fulfill.
Speaker 1: It's really the connective tissue they talk about in this
Speaker 1: research that defines the quality of the relationship, the bond,
Speaker 1: the glue, and the connective tissue, which I love. What
Speaker 1: a suitable human body metaphor. And it's actually in the
Speaker 1: human body that it is because the connective tissue, the
Speaker 1: fascia in our body, holds a ton of inflammation. It's
Speaker 1: really manipulating the fascia, the tissue that connects the muscles,
Speaker 1: is critical for moving the immune system and getting blood,
Speaker 1: optimizing blood flow to our organs. It's the basis of
Speaker 1: osteopathic manipulation, which I'm not personally trained in, but it's
Speaker 1: a huge area full of opportunity for helping people heal
Speaker 1: in a whole body way. So I love I love
Speaker 1: that metaphor. I do too. I also like the opposite.
Speaker 1: They say that a toxic relationship is like a black hole. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we've talked about toxic relationships. I mean, they can
Speaker 1: detract from our well being more than positive relationships add
Speaker 1: to our well beginning. That's so true. That's so true.
Speaker 1: I think it especially you know in cults as well, right, Like,
Speaker 1: that's that seems like toxic connection. Well, certainly, it's like
Speaker 1: the personality structure of someone who probably has narcissistic personality
Speaker 1: disorder and other cluster B traits sort of feeding on
Speaker 1: people with personalities who are more dependent and need that
Speaker 1: organism to get their nutrients from. So it's this personality
Speaker 1: power structure that gets amplified and magnified to the you know,
Speaker 1: the narcissistic folks or questionable, sometimes more immoral aims. Wow,
Speaker 1: I've never heard of anyone quite put it that way.
Speaker 1: That's brilliant, It's really that was a really insightful way
Speaker 1: of putting that dynamic. Wow. Well, we see it play
Speaker 1: out in tons of interpersonal relationships with you know, folks
Speaker 1: I meet who are in dysfunctional toxic relationships, and it
Speaker 1: really comes down to these complementary but not synergistic for
Speaker 1: anything good personality style. Yes, very well said, very well
Speaker 1: said your personality style. You were labeled the chief extrovert
Speaker 1: of the Imagination Institute at University of Pennsylvania. Didn't we
Speaker 1: have you on the website. I was definitely on the website.
Speaker 1: I remember sitting in your office and you were like,
Speaker 1: I really need your help with outreach and engaging with
Speaker 1: some of these experts we're going to bring in. You're
Speaker 1: a really chief extrovert. I think that's what we're going
Speaker 1: to call you. So, yes, Scott, you named me chief extrovert.
Speaker 1: And it is a title that I wore so proudly
Speaker 1: and continue to wear. I think it's on my LinkedIn profile.
Speaker 1: Are you serious? I think it is. Love it. I
Speaker 1: love it. I love it well. You are a very
Speaker 1: get shit done kind of person, and you don't and
Speaker 1: you also don't suffer fools gladly as the expression. As
Speaker 1: the expression goes, I think that's the expression. Google that
Speaker 1: does that resonate? I have to admit I don't know
Speaker 1: what that expression means. We can google it. Let's google it.
Speaker 1: It says. Sufferfls gladly is a well known phrase first
Speaker 1: coined by Saint Paul. The full verses for yay sufferfuls
Speaker 1: gladly seeing yay, yourselves are wise? Okay, so what does
Speaker 1: it actually mean? It means to be kind and patient
Speaker 1: with people who are annoying or bothersome You're very graceful
Speaker 1: in dealing with things, as well as a sort of
Speaker 1: thank you you Okay, So, Scott, I have to say
Speaker 1: just the act of you looking that up. You are
Speaker 1: so intensely curious. I love it so much. It is
Speaker 1: one of my favorite things about you. And you have
Speaker 1: helped me so much learn how to be assertive, which
Speaker 1: I love that. That's something we write about in our book,
Speaker 1: but you've helped me actualize it. You've helped me fight
Speaker 1: my own imposterism. You have helped me advocate for myself,
Speaker 1: and you have been such a fierce cheerleader for me
Speaker 1: over these years. You know, telling me I was going
Speaker 1: to build positive medicine. You have sculpted, you have practiced
Speaker 1: the Michelangelo phenomenon with me, helping me realize my most
Speaker 1: ideal self. I'm very touched touched to hear that. I'm
Speaker 1: so happy to hear that, So thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I feel like your a nice combination. This
Speaker 1: is all what you already had within you, right. That's
Speaker 1: the whole thing about the Michelangelo is that you're not
Speaker 1: bringing out that, You're not making what am I trying
Speaker 1: to say, a turtle lot of a cow, I don't
Speaker 1: know whatever. You're not changing species here to be able
Speaker 1: to integrate assertiveness and healthy assertiveness with graciousness and kindness
Speaker 1: is it's a very hard sweet spot to get to.
Speaker 1: I really admire that about you. So thank you for
Speaker 1: being and for the kind of words you said. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank yeah. First of all, I want to say, you've
Speaker 1: been demonstrating a lot today the principles of yes and
Speaker 1: and I think we should make explicit. We'd be remiss
Speaker 1: if we didn't make explicit why Jordan and I speak
Speaker 1: to each other like and we always speak to each
Speaker 1: other like this. Oh yeah, if you thieves dropped, if
Speaker 1: thieves dropped our phone calls, you'd hear a lot of
Speaker 1: yes and. So can explain to our listeners a little
Speaker 1: bit why we're such big fans of this. Absolutely. So.
Speaker 1: I grew up doing a lot of theater, and part
Speaker 1: of a lot of my theater warmups was always this
Speaker 1: game yes And, which is integral and improv And I'm
Speaker 1: so delighted. One of the many reasons that Scott and
Speaker 1: I work so well together is because we are both
Speaker 1: children of the theater of improv and we when I
Speaker 1: so Yes And was always something that I had practiced,
Speaker 1: this idea that you have to build a scene together
Speaker 1: and you can't just shut down whatever your scene partner says,
Speaker 1: if the scene partner says it's time to go to
Speaker 1: the grocery store, you have to say yes, and maybe
Speaker 1: on our way we can stop on Mars. Rather than
Speaker 1: saying no, I want to bring this scene to Mars.
Speaker 1: You have to be very respectful of the fact that
Speaker 1: your scene partners set the stage. You're going to the
Speaker 1: grocery store, so instead of saying no, but we say yes,
Speaker 1: and so all of those things can be true. So
Speaker 1: the scene we're going to go to Mars, end at
Speaker 1: the grocery store and buy some chocolate milk to debrief
Speaker 1: our Martian experience. So wherever the scene goes, you go
Speaker 1: with it. And anything to add about that, Scott, that's
Speaker 1: a very yes end of you. There is something I
Speaker 1: want to add to that, but I'd love for you
Speaker 1: to finish your thought first and then I'll yes end it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So in my psychiatry training, when I learned about dialectical
Speaker 1: behavioral therapy, it's basically the mainstay of treatment for borderline
Speaker 1: personality disorder and it's really an incredibly effective form of psychotherapy.
Speaker 1: I was like, this is yes, and it's all about
Speaker 1: two ideas or multiple ideas being true. At the same
Speaker 1: time embracing the dialectic. And then when I read the
Speaker 1: last chapter of transcend and read that one of Abraham
Speaker 1: Maslow's definition of transcendence is this idea of dichotomy transcendence,
Speaker 1: I was like, WHOA, mind blown. We have to synthesize
Speaker 1: this into a practice for the book, and so we did,
Speaker 1: and Scott and I have been yes ending each other
Speaker 1: ever since. It's true we really have, we really have.
Speaker 1: And that's what I was going to add, is that
Speaker 1: I wanted to link it to notions of transcendence because
Speaker 1: this is not the connection you usually see. I want
Speaker 1: to give all credit to Ann Libera and Kelly Leonard
Speaker 1: for helping us with the yes and their legends in
Speaker 1: the improv world at Second City. But tying it to
Speaker 1: Maslow's notion of dichotomy transcendence, I think is something new
Speaker 1: and important because when we hear about transcendence a lot
Speaker 1: we hear it, we think about transcendence, we think more
Speaker 1: vertical kind of foreign transcends like I'm above others. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I've transcended my ego and now you know, look at
Speaker 1: all these peons that don't have an ego or they
Speaker 1: still have their ego, you know, And our definition transcendence
Speaker 1: is very horizontal, right, It's very like connecting the world
Speaker 1: and with others, And yes end seems like a great
Speaker 1: vehicle to connecting with others, right, Like, one good way
Speaker 1: of alienating yourself from others is if you're the type
Speaker 1: of person or no matter what someone says, you're like no,
Speaker 1: but you know, like so the opposite of yes end,
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem very connective. So yeah, it seems quite
Speaker 1: a transcendent way of being absolutely so. Deeper into my
Speaker 1: psychotherapy training, I've realized that that butt as the therapist,
Speaker 1: when I hear the butt from my patients, is really
Speaker 1: a point of opportunity because it's recognizing resistance with them.
Speaker 1: I've lost my patient when whatever I'm suggesting or bringing
Speaker 1: forward to them is met with that butt. It's also
Speaker 1: a classic hinderer of active constructive responding, and it brings
Speaker 1: about one of the other styles. Just to bring it
Speaker 1: back to that practice we talked about the active destructive response.
Speaker 1: But you're gonna write this book, aren't you already so busy?
Speaker 1: Don't you have such a full plate right now? It's
Speaker 1: often a well intentioned response to someone's good news and
Speaker 1: it totally undermines what they are trying to say. It does,
Speaker 1: it really does. Yeah. Isn't it funny how we're connecting
Speaker 1: all these dots here that maybe don't even see all
Speaker 1: these dots before. Yeah. I think it's. Another beautiful thing
Speaker 1: about this workbook is that it takes the brilliant ideas
Speaker 1: and some new brilliant ideas. I will say that we're
Speaker 1: in so ideas from transcend and forces. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: we highly encourage a willing reader and listener to actually
Speaker 1: integrate the practice into their life. So whereas in transcend
Speaker 1: when I was reading all about dichotomy transcendence, I was like, WHOA,
Speaker 1: this is mind blowing and how do I operationalize it?
Speaker 1: And I think what our book does is it helps
Speaker 1: the reader actually go out and do the thing. And
Speaker 1: once you develop a practice of doing all the things,
Speaker 1: it's hard not to see them. It's hard not to
Speaker 1: connect the dots, because of course they're all connected when
Speaker 1: you're existing on this plane where we're living so deliberately,
Speaker 1: we have mental capacity in space to make the connections,
Speaker 1: where when we're so caught in the nitty gritty and
Speaker 1: tunnel vision it's hard to see. I completely agree. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to think of some other topics we could discuss
Speaker 1: that to kind of wet people's appetite for our book.
Speaker 1: Maybe a good one is like integrating your dark side. Now,
Speaker 1: the idea of dark side people are when they should
Speaker 1: know that the shadow doesn't mean it's necessarily bad or
Speaker 1: immoral dark side. All it means is that it's in
Speaker 1: the dark. It's not in the light of your consciousness,
Speaker 1: it's not fully accepted, and it's probably not integrated into
Speaker 1: the rest of your being. Now. Now, some of your
Speaker 1: dark sides certainly can be a moral don't get me wrong,
Speaker 1: But it doesn't necessarily mean the dark side is evil
Speaker 1: or bad. I just wanted to preface that. So with that,
Speaker 1: with that, do you agree? Do you agreed to it? Totally?
Speaker 1: I think there's so much of ourselves that we keep
Speaker 1: in the dark. Some of it's probably incredibly powerful and
Speaker 1: capacities that we have that could be quite positive as well.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, that are not necessarily within our
Speaker 1: awareness or can be overwhelming to even consider. What's an
Speaker 1: exercise or well, listen, we don't want to give away,
Speaker 1: we don't want to give it all away, my friend.
Speaker 1: But we shouldn't give it all away, I think. I
Speaker 1: think one of the things that we guide readers to
Speaker 1: do in this practice is just to even take stock
Speaker 1: of what some of their shadow sides, their dark sides,
Speaker 1: actually mean, because it's not it's not necessarily one whole
Speaker 1: side of us. Sometimes it's one thing we're grappling with,
Speaker 1: something we're trying to suppress, something that we're very deliberate
Speaker 1: in not showing others or the world, or feel we
Speaker 1: can't share with others. And some of those things are
Speaker 1: so deeply buried that we don't let ourselves acknowledge them,
Speaker 1: and in a safe way, we want to shed some
Speaker 1: light on what some of those dark sides are. Of course,
Speaker 1: we're very clear we want everyone to take ownership of
Speaker 1: their psychological safety, and we don't want to unravel wounds
Speaker 1: that are so deep without you having the support of
Speaker 1: a counselor or someone to process these wounds with. But
Speaker 1: there are a lot of things that we choose consciously
Speaker 1: or not to hide below the bed, and we want
Speaker 1: to begin to shine the flashlight under there and say
Speaker 1: get some of the dust off, and say that I
Speaker 1: am you are not all of me, and by bringing
Speaker 1: you into my life, acknowledging and engaging with you, I
Speaker 1: can gain more mastery. There might there might be a
Speaker 1: lesson here, I might be more at peace, I might
Speaker 1: sleep better at night if I actually bring you in.
Speaker 1: I really like that change your relationship to it. I
Speaker 1: really like that a lot. Well, Jordan and I. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to give too much away here, but
Speaker 1: it has been so delightful having you on this on
Speaker 1: this podcast. And I want to tell our listeners that
Speaker 1: our book, Choose Growth is out this week this week,
Speaker 1: so you can listen to it on the audio which
Speaker 1: you can hear both of our adultit tones or doulcet tones,
Speaker 1: or you can read it kindle or physical copy. Look, folks,
Speaker 1: I do this podcast every week. I've done every week
Speaker 1: for the past seven years, and I rarely on this
Speaker 1: podcast pitch my own book. So I'm owning it this week.
Speaker 1: I'm owning it. I'm saying check it out, because I
Speaker 1: every week I feature someone else's book. It was for
Speaker 1: seven years, and I'm gonna have a fully step into
Speaker 1: the space of saying I'm darn proud of this thing,
Speaker 1: and I'm darn proud of working with you, Jordan. It
Speaker 1: is so mutual. Scott. I am so delighted that you
Speaker 1: are proud of this book and I think your listeners
Speaker 1: are going to love it. And I love it and
Speaker 1: it's helped me and I really hope it helps you
Speaker 1: me too. Thanks Jordan, see us soon. Thanks Scott, Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast. If
Speaker 1: you'd like to react in some way to something you heard,
Speaker 1: I encourage you to join in the discussion at thus
Speaker 1: psychologypodcast dot com. We're on our YouTube page, The Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: We also put up some videos of some episodes on
Speaker 1: our YouTube page as well, so you'll want to check
Speaker 1: that out. Thanks for being such a great supporter of
Speaker 1: the show, and tune in next time for more on
Speaker 1: the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.