WEBVTT - J. Courtney Sullivan: Proof

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. According to survey, seventy one percent of Republicans and

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<v Speaker 1>fifty five percent of Democrats now regard the opposition party

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<v Speaker 1>as a force leading to national decline. In a world

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<v Speaker 1>gone haywire, sometimes art is the only thing that can

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<v Speaker 1>make sense of it all. Survey after survey has shown

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<v Speaker 1>that Republicans and Democrats now view each other not simply

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<v Speaker 1>as wrong, but as malevolent. This is the Chronicles of Now,

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<v Speaker 1>where we ask writers to dream up short stories inspired

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<v Speaker 1>by the news. I'm Ashley Ford. This family ordinarily does

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<v Speaker 1>not talk about politics, but this campaign in election were different,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's adding a whole other, thick, viscous layer of stress.

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<v Speaker 1>Polarization is nothing new in America, and in twenty twenty,

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<v Speaker 1>between pandemic, the recession, and the coming election, things are

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<v Speaker 1>getting really tense out there. Even the simple gesture wearing

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<v Speaker 1>a mosque has become passes on marriages where partners don't

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<v Speaker 1>share well the same political views. There is some treacherous times.

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<v Speaker 1>We are a country divided, and oftentimes that division can

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<v Speaker 1>be seen within one family. That's j Courtney Sullivan. She's

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<v Speaker 1>the author of five novels, and her latest Friends and

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<v Speaker 1>Strangers just hit the New York Times bestseller List. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>always interested in how are the bigger political and world

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<v Speaker 1>events sort of playing out in the lives of everyday people.

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<v Speaker 1>When she turned her attention to America's polarization, her way

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<v Speaker 1>into the topic was through birds. Scientists are out with

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<v Speaker 1>a stark new warning about the disappearance of billions of

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<v Speaker 1>birds in the US and Canada nine, which works out

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<v Speaker 1>to almost three billion birds in less than fifty years.

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<v Speaker 1>Scientists say habitat reduction, pesticides, and cats are the likely

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<v Speaker 1>culprits us. In other words, but like all news today,

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<v Speaker 1>your take on the missing birds likely depends on where

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<v Speaker 1>you heard about it, Fox or CNN, the New York Times,

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<v Speaker 1>or the Daily Caller Rachel Maddow or Tucker Carlson, which

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<v Speaker 1>got Courtney thinking, you can't know what you are not seeing,

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't think many people in this country are

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<v Speaker 1>getting the full picture, including people in our own families.

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<v Speaker 1>My oldest, clearest memory dates back to the summer my

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<v Speaker 1>sister and I turn mine and our mother brought down

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<v Speaker 1>her mother's copy of the Birds of North America. It

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<v Speaker 1>was not some child's plaything, but a guide for serious

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<v Speaker 1>adult enthusiasts, beautiful with hand painted watercolor illustrations. The book

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<v Speaker 1>was a bribe, and we knew it. It could be

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<v Speaker 1>ours mine and my sisters if we promised not to fight.

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<v Speaker 1>Door and I could never get along. We shared the

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<v Speaker 1>room with the pink wallpaper at the top of the stairs,

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<v Speaker 1>and in that room we bickered, we hollered. She tore

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<v Speaker 1>out a chunk of my hair, and I put a

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<v Speaker 1>pillow over her face while she slept. But our grandmother's

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<v Speaker 1>book intrigued us into behaving, at least for a time.

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<v Speaker 1>We wrote our names inside, right under the spot where

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<v Speaker 1>she had done the same. She died before we were born.

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<v Speaker 1>Our mother had told us how she loved the birds,

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<v Speaker 1>the way they flew free, darting around cows in their

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<v Speaker 1>pens and pastures, lounging on fence posts, asking nothing of her.

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<v Speaker 1>Whenever our mother saw a cardinal through the kitchen window,

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<v Speaker 1>she'd say it was her mother stopping by to say hello.

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<v Speaker 1>Dora and I memorize the birds of North America like

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<v Speaker 1>a book of prayers. Starlings and sparrows and robins, blue jays, blackbirds,

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<v Speaker 1>and warblers. By September we knew them all on site

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<v Speaker 1>ever since. Birds are what we have in common, birds

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<v Speaker 1>and not much else. My sister and I have never

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<v Speaker 1>lived more than three miles apart, but we've gone whole

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<v Speaker 1>years without speaking. Dora started watching what she calls the

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<v Speaker 1>news after Harold died. Among the things, she now believes

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<v Speaker 1>that there is a floor at Mercy Hospital just for

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<v Speaker 1>Mexicans where they get their treatment for free, that Hillary

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<v Speaker 1>Clinton runs a sex trafficking ring out of a pizza

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<v Speaker 1>shop in Washington, DC, That people all over this country

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<v Speaker 1>are somehow aborting babies after they're born. Last Thanksgiving, she

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<v Speaker 1>told some whopper and I said that's not true, and

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<v Speaker 1>she said it is. I saw it on the news

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<v Speaker 1>and I said, that's not the news, it's propaganda for

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<v Speaker 1>people who don't know how to think. She walked right

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<v Speaker 1>out of my house, then came back in to get

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<v Speaker 1>the pie she'd brought, and walked out again. I initiated

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<v Speaker 1>the truce stop talking about it, so we don't have

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<v Speaker 1>to stop talking king altogether. But even polite conversation, if

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<v Speaker 1>you make it long enough, comes back around to the

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<v Speaker 1>question of how to be a person in this world.

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<v Speaker 1>I called Dora this morning when I saw the headline,

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<v Speaker 1>three billion fewer birds on this continent now than fifty

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, three billion. Reading it felt like reaching the

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<v Speaker 1>end of a mystery novel and looking back at the

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<v Speaker 1>clues you missed. Anyone who has lived long enough will

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<v Speaker 1>tell you it isn't like it used to be. Remember

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<v Speaker 1>the bats, how they swooped down at sunset? Dora and

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<v Speaker 1>I have asked one another, Remember bird's song in springtime,

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<v Speaker 1>so loud you had to cover your ears to think.

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<v Speaker 1>Remember when a flow of crows flying overhead would dark

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<v Speaker 1>in the afternoon sky. Of course, Dora was horrified when

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<v Speaker 1>I told her about the three billion birds. But when

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<v Speaker 1>I mentioned, not for the first time, the little Swedish

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<v Speaker 1>girl demanding that we fix it all now, or else

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<v Speaker 1>the legacy we leave will be destruction. Dora said, why

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<v Speaker 1>do you make everything political? Some things just are I

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<v Speaker 1>hung up on her. I won't be the one to

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<v Speaker 1>smooth things over this time either. The city of Des

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<v Speaker 1>Moines used to be just that, beyond it, farmland punctuated

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<v Speaker 1>it every here and there by, a tiny town. Now

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<v Speaker 1>the space between places is full of big box stores

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<v Speaker 1>and big identical houses. Either on. My grandson and his

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<v Speaker 1>wife live in I can never remember which driveway is theirs.

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<v Speaker 1>There are no trees anywhere. The lawns are an unnatural

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<v Speaker 1>chemical green cuts short like military haircuts. My grandson's wife

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<v Speaker 1>sends pictures of deer and wild turkeys wandering lost down

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<v Speaker 1>the street. I can't miss what you've never seen. Maybe

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<v Speaker 1>that's why they're not as angry as they should be.

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<v Speaker 1>Makes me want to chain myself to a bulldozer before

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<v Speaker 1>they can plow under one more field. Old age has

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<v Speaker 1>turned me into a radical. Some afternoons, the Cardinal alights

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<v Speaker 1>on a tree branch outside my kitchen window. It reminds

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<v Speaker 1>me of my grandmother, my mother on a good day,

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<v Speaker 1>Dora too. What will happen when the proof that any

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<v Speaker 1>of us was ever here only exists between the pages

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<v Speaker 1>of an old book, the provenance of which no one

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<v Speaker 1>alive can recall. Then later on not even that that

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<v Speaker 1>was proof. By j Courtney Sullivan, the narrator with Cindy

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<v Speaker 1>Catz Hi Courtney Hi Ashley. The first thing I want

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<v Speaker 1>to say, honestly, it is just damn girl. You start

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<v Speaker 1>with a story about sisters bonding over birds, but it

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<v Speaker 1>very quickly morphs into a story about political polarization. And

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<v Speaker 1>then you work in our own oblivion right there at

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<v Speaker 1>the end, and it's about two pages. I'm still recovering. Ah,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you. One of the things that I love about

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<v Speaker 1>this story is that the sisters you know, never really

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<v Speaker 1>did get along, yeah by growing up in the same

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<v Speaker 1>environment except for this bond over birds, and their political

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<v Speaker 1>differences actually seem to have a lot more to do

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<v Speaker 1>with the media. Dora consumes, how much blame do you

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<v Speaker 1>put on media for our extreme political polarization in this country?

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<v Speaker 1>Right now? I want to be fair, you know, fair

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<v Speaker 1>and balanced, as Fox News would say, And I actually

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<v Speaker 1>listen to a lot of conservative talk radio and I

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<v Speaker 1>watch Fox News even though it's probably going to take

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<v Speaker 1>years off my life, because I want to see what

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<v Speaker 1>are both sides saying and what are people hearing. But

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<v Speaker 1>I really believe this, not just because I am a

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<v Speaker 1>left leaning individual, but I truly think that Fox News

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<v Speaker 1>has created so much damage to this culture and continues

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<v Speaker 1>to do so. And I have conservative people in my

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<v Speaker 1>own life whom I love, who are very smart, well

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<v Speaker 1>educated people, and they are still kind of reciting talking

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<v Speaker 1>points that they hear on Fox News, and it's terrifying

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<v Speaker 1>to me. One of the things that I loved about

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<v Speaker 1>this story, you know, beyond the sisters and their relationship,

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<v Speaker 1>is the mention of birds. I'll be honest, I'm a

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<v Speaker 1>bird person, but are you a fellow bird person? When

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<v Speaker 1>this news story came out about three billion fewer birds

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<v Speaker 1>for some reason, I was reading the news stories, but

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<v Speaker 1>I also was reading the comments. They say, never read

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<v Speaker 1>the comments, but when you didn't write it, you can.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was really amazed because there were so many

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<v Speaker 1>commenters telling stories about the birds of their youth, and

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<v Speaker 1>one detail in particular, which I think ended up in

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<v Speaker 1>the story. You know, someone said, remember when the sky

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<v Speaker 1>would just be darkened by a flock of birds going overhead?

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<v Speaker 1>And I thought, I've no, I don't remember that. This

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<v Speaker 1>person is obviously much older than I am. I never

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<v Speaker 1>I never saw that. But I think this idea that

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<v Speaker 1>we can't miss what we don't know exists, we can't

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<v Speaker 1>miss what we've never seen, is very scary when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to issues of animals and the planet in general.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, you can't fight against what you don't know

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<v Speaker 1>as a problem. Right when I wrote it, I was

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<v Speaker 1>living in Brooklyn, and I guess birds weren't a huge

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<v Speaker 1>part of my life. And we've since moved to the Albany,

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<v Speaker 1>New York area, which is very green, and we have

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<v Speaker 1>so many birds in our yards. Once you start seeing

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<v Speaker 1>them and seeing the variety, it makes you wonder, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what more there might have been to see. It's immeasurable.

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<v Speaker 1>I think what we lose just by not knowing it

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<v Speaker 1>was there for us, yes, and not knowing it was

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<v Speaker 1>there for us to enjoy. Yes. The sisters seem to

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<v Speaker 1>have suffered a permanent sure in this story, like we

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<v Speaker 1>don't know if they're ever going to talk to each

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<v Speaker 1>other again, but don't we need to be talking to

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<v Speaker 1>the doors of the world? Like that is the position

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<v Speaker 1>of quite a few people, is that if we give

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<v Speaker 1>up on the doras we lose everything. Do you think

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<v Speaker 1>it's too late for that? Are we too divide it

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<v Speaker 1>to come back together? I guess I probably have kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a pessimistic take on this, you know. I do

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<v Speaker 1>often see this sentiment expressed maybe on Twitter, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the sense of like, if you have these conservative people

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<v Speaker 1>in your life, you must convince them. And it's really

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<v Speaker 1>difficult because personally I have those people in my life,

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<v Speaker 1>and if you said to my conservative uncle, don't talk

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<v Speaker 1>to Courtney anymore unless she agrees to vote for Trump.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm never going to He's never going to convince me.

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<v Speaker 1>It's really hard because I want to believe that we

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<v Speaker 1>can talk our way to agreement on a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>these things. But honestly, I don't believe it. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>and that doesn't mean that there aren't important conversations to

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<v Speaker 1>be had. You know, in my own family, even there

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<v Speaker 1>are people who are conservative, but they're young, much younger

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<v Speaker 1>than I am, and they are reasonable, and I see

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<v Speaker 1>hope there. I see hope in having conversations with them,

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<v Speaker 1>because even though they identify as conservative, there's so much

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<v Speaker 1>common ground and they're not okay with what's happening in

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<v Speaker 1>this country in a lot of ways. So to my mind, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>there are conversations to be had, there's common ground to

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<v Speaker 1>be found, and there are a lot of people who

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<v Speaker 1>we shouldn't like, let go of or just say forget it.

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<v Speaker 1>We're never going to get there. But there are also

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people who are just there. They're fully baked,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't think we're going to get them, unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>much as they will never get us. We like the truth.

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<v Speaker 1>I dare on the Chronicles of Now. We enjoy good Courtney,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for that story, and thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for coming on the Chronicles of Now. I've really enjoyed

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<v Speaker 1>this common versation me too, thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>You can read my full interview with Jay Courtney Sullivan

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<v Speaker 1>on our website Chronicles dot Fm, where you can also

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<v Speaker 1>read the story you just heard and other short fiction

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<v Speaker 1>torn from today's headlines. Our sound designer and composer is

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<v Speaker 1>Bart Warshaw, our producer is Curtis Fox, and our associate

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<v Speaker 1>producer is Emily Rostick. Tyler Cabott is the executive producer

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<v Speaker 1>and founder of Chronicles of NAP for Pushkin Industries. Our

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<v Speaker 1>executive producer is Leetel Malaud. Special thanks to Jacob Weisberg,

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<v Speaker 1>Carly Migliori, Heather Faine, and Eric Sandler for the Chronicles

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<v Speaker 1>of Now podcast. I'm Ashley Ford. Thanks for listening.